莉亚·迈尔斯：创作艺术以理解世界

人们希望用蛋白质折叠或SETI寻找外星信号之类的任务作为工作量证明。

People wanted to do like protein folding or SETI searching for alien signals or whatever as the proof of work.

像保障网络这样的事情其实没什么用处。

It'd be doing something useful like securing the network isn't useful.

所以我开始想，回到艺术的定义，到底什么是艺术？

So I thought, well, going back to my what's the definition of art?

艺术就是无用的。

Well, art is useless.

所以与其做无用功去生成SHA-256哈希值并寻找其中的零，不如做无用功来创作艺术，而且我身边有熟悉的家人经常逛画廊，他们会说：‘这不错，我能从这看到一张脸。’

So rather than doing the useless work of creating a SHA-two 55 hash and looking for zeros in it, thought, well, we can do the useless work of making art and what's the simplest thing it can do in terms of having known lovely family members who've gone around galleries going, yeah, this is good, I can see a face in this.

是的，这在欣赏抽象艺术时确实很明显。

Yeah, it's definitely when looking at abstract art.

那就画人脸吧，制作一些小肖像。

It's like, well, let's make faces, like let's make little portraits.

它使用了与比特币相同的加密哈希值，但通过人脸识别算法在其中寻找微小的人脸。

So it takes the same cryptographic hash that Bitcoin would, but it uses a face recognition algorithm to look for little faces in it.

它仍然在做某种功能上无用的事情，但这种无用是美学意义上的，或者说，是美学上等同于‘有用’的东西。

It was doing something still functionally useless, but it was doing something aesthetically not useful, but whatever the aesthetic equivalent of useful is.

我过去常在Decontrol的投影仪上运行它。

And I used to leave that running on the projector in Decontrol.

而存在证明让人们对于密码学证明的概念产生了极大的兴趣，这显然是一种能得出预期结果的计算。

And proof of existence was people were very, very, very interested in the idea of cryptographic proof, which is obviously a sum which gives the expected result.

他们完全转向了关于证明的更广泛概念，比如真理或事实性，以及某物在密码系统内通过加密签名而被视为真实，与它真正为真之间的鸿沟？

They just totally went into general ideas of proof in terms of truth or factuality and the gap between something being cryptographically signed and therefore authentic within that crypto system?

太阳今天早上真的升起来了吗？

And is it true that the sun rose this morning?

这中间存在着巨大的鸿沟，我们可以在其中畅游，放些漂浮的玩具，玩得非常开心。

That's a vast gap and we can swim around in that and have floaty toys in there and have a really fun time.

所以存在证明就是，我学会了关于找零地址的知识，手工制作了一笔比特币交易，把我在23andMe测得的基因组哈希值嵌入其中——我现在非常后悔当初为了之前的创业项目做了这件事，并在公司被收购前要求他们删除了数据。

And so proof of existence was me having learnt about change addresses, hand crafting a Bitcoin transaction, had the hash of my genome from 23andMe, which I now greatly regret having done for a previous startup and did ask them to remove before they got sold to whoever they got sold to.

但当时的情况是，我有点失业，手头有点紧，那种‘我确实还存在’的强烈需求变得格外强烈。

But it was this sort of, exist because I was a bit unemployed and a bit running out of money and the sort of need to feel that I did actually still exist was quite strong.

将加密证明这个概念应用到这里，意味着拥有我基因组的这个人至少从此时此刻起真实存在过，无论是30岁、40岁，还是其他年龄。

Taking this idea of cryptographic proof is like, someone with my genome has definitely existed at least from this point in time, age 30, whatever, 40, whatever.

而我错失的、相当不公平的一点是，2014年，推特上的硬币艺术家玛格丽特·德·科索一直在做一些很棒的作品，她称之为‘另类现实游戏’，现在这些会被视为加密解谜挑战。

And the bit that I've missed missed out quite unfairly is in 2014, Marguerite de Corso, a coin artist on Twitter, had been doing some wonderful she called them alternative reality games, they'd now be regarded as crypto puzzle trials.

而我第一次看到的就是其中一个。

And the again, I saw the first one.

那是一幅描绘了多位加密文化人物的画作。

It's like, it's a painting of various crypto culture figures.

作为绘画的主题，这确实很有趣。

That's interesting as a subject for a painting.

六个月后，她突然说：‘哇，真的吗？’

And then six months later, she was like, oh, wow.

这引导我踏上了一段奇妙的探索之旅，最终进入了一个Minecraft世界，如果你能解开那里的谜题，就能赢得一些加密货币。

And that led you on this amazing rabbit hole trail that led to a Minecraft world, which if you solve the puzzle there, won you some crypto.

所以我对玛格丽特说：嘿，这太棒了。

So like I said to Marguerite, hey, this is great.

她基本上成了我接下来几年的特工导师，突然出现在我的生活中说：‘嘿，我们要做一个项目。’

And she basically became my spy master for the next few years, suddenly arriving in my life going, Hey, we're doing this project.

你想参与吗？

Do you want to be involved?

我们要做一些谜题和相关的东西。

We're going to do some puzzles and things.

于是我和玛格丽特一起头脑风暴，如何骇人听闻地滥用加密算法，在艺术品中设计解谜内容。

So I'd brainstorm with Marguerite on how to horrifically misuse cryptographic algorithms to create puzzles for people to solve inside of artworks.

人们记得的那个作品——同样也是我人生最低谷时创作的——是《中本聪的传说》或《燃烧的心》，那是我们意识到人们解谜太快后做的作品。

The one that people remember, which again we made certainly where I was at rock bottom was The Legend of Satoshi Nakamoto or Torched Hearts, which was the one that we made when we said, people are solving the puzzles too quickly.

我们花几天时间做的谜题，看起来精美绝伦，概念上也优雅，结果人们几个小时就破解了。

Like we spend days making a puzzle, it looks beautiful, it's conceptually elegant, people crack it in a couple of hours.

我们需要一个能让人花上几周时间才能解开的东西，我们能做些什么来增加复杂度？

We need something that's gonna take them a couple of weeks, like what can we do to make it more complex?

于是我们创作了一幅画，上面有一个小棋盘，所有人都以为那是二维码，其实根本不是。

And so this became a painting with a little chessboard on, which everyone thought was a QR code, it wasn't a QR code.

边缘周围大约有196朵不同颜色和高度的火焰，多年后我遇到了一些试图破解这个谜题的人，他们制作了这些

And this is about 196 flames of different colors and heights around the edges, which I met some of the people who had tried to crack the puzzle years later and they'd made these

巨大的，这能被原谅吗？

huge Is it excusable?

所以如果你搜索‘Torched Hearts’或‘Satoshi Nakamoto的传说’，或者搜索‘4万美元的比特币画作’，很可能就能找到它。

So if you search for torched hearts or the legend of Satoshi Nakamoto, if you search for the $40,000 Bitcoin painting that will probably get you there.

Vice媒体有一篇不错的报道，BBC也做了报道，但他们拒绝删除我的旧名。

Vice had a nice write up, the BBC also did, but they're refusing to remove my dead name.

无论如何，我遇到过一些人，他们制作了精美的用户界面来可视化这些火焰，试图破解它们。

Anyway, I've met people who made these beautiful user interfaces to visualize the flames and everything, try and crack them.

我递给Marguerite的不是一台老式打印机，而是一个文本文件，上面写着：火焰呈红色，外轮廓为黄色。

I handed Marguerite this not old fashioned computer printer, but a text file saying, flame up red outline yellow.

她把这些画得完美无瑕。

And she painted these absolutely perfectly.

我们知道她画得完美无瑕，因为几周后，有人终于破解了密码并领取了奖金。

We know that she painted these absolutely perfectly because some years, not weeks later, someone finally cracks the code and claimed the prize.

最初里面包含2000美元的比特币。

And originally it had 2,000 USD of Bitcoin in it.

两年后，我想应该是两年后，它被破解了，那时价值4万美元。到那时我们已经非常警惕了，我把所有源文件都从我的笔记本电脑硬盘上移走了，以防有人偷走我的电脑来寻找线索。

And two years later, think it was two years later when it was cracked, that was $40,000 And by that point we were quite paranoid, I'd moved all of the source material off of my laptop hard disk in case anyone tried to steal my laptop to get clues for it.

当玛格丽特联系我，说有人声称破解了它。

When Marguerite contacted me and said, someone says they've cracked it.

你觉得我们被黑了吗？

Do you think we've been hacked?

那真是一个重要的时刻。

That was that was quite an occasion.

但再说一次，那种情况到底是怎么发生的？

But again, that sort of What was how on

这到底是怎么运作的？

how does this work?

所以我正在看这幅画。

So I'm looking at the painting.

你究竟怎么可能解决这个问题呢？

How on earth can you possibly solve this?

这对我意味着什么，我

And what does it mean to I

每当有人问我这件事时，我都不得不装作什么都不知道，这至今仍给我带来心理压力。

spent years just having to go blank whenever anyone asked me about it, so it's still a psychological pressure on me to say.

你看到它边缘有一些美丽的火焰。

You see around the edge of it, there are some lovely flames.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

你看到有不同颜色和不同高度的火焰。

You see there are different colors and different heights.

是的。

Yes.

嗯嗯。

Uh-huh.

所以有一些信息论意义上的零和一。

So there are bits information theoretic like zeros and ones.

高度、颜色、轮廓颜色中都包含信息，这些共同构成了一串二进制位。

There are bits of information in the heights, in the color, in the outline color, and that gives you a series of bits.

我们以前做过很多二进制编码，比如圆形、方形之类的。

We've done lots of binary codes before, so like circles or squares or whatever.

所以我认为每个东西是六位，而六位并不是一个罕见的数值，因为钱包字串用的就是六位。

So having, I think it's six bits per thing and six bits was not an unusual value because the wallet word strings use six bits.

使用六位信息看起来像是一个自然的分界点。

Using six bits of information seemed like a shelling point.

这看起来像是人们能够猜到的东西。

It seemed like something people would be able to guess.

然后为了增加一点难度，因为这个太简单了，它只是比其他所有谜题稍微复杂了一点。

And then just to make it a bit difficult, because this was so simple, it's just like a tiny little bit more complex than all the other puzzles.

为了增加一点复杂性，你需要对它进行异或运算，这同样是密码学中一个非常标准的逻辑运算符。

To make this a little bit more complex, you had to XOR it, which is again a perfectly standard logical operator for cryptography.

每个人都懂异或。

Everyone knows XOR.

每个人都会想到异或。

Everyone would think of XOR.

你必须用密钥中的一些位对它进行异或运算。

You have to XOR it with some bits in a key.

那么，你认为这张图上的密钥在哪里？

Now where on this picture do you think the key is?

天啊。

Oh, god.

嗯，这里确实有一个实际的密钥。

Well, there's an actual literal key.

确实有一个实际的密钥。

There's an actual literal key.

现在很多人以为是棋盘。

Now lots of people thought it was the chessboard.

对。

Right.

它并不是棋盘。

It it wasn't the chessboard.

它实际上是那个具体的密钥。

It was the actual literal key.

如果你看一下这个具体的密钥，上面有一些丝带。

And if you look at the actual literal key, it has some ribbons on it.

这些丝带长度不同。

And the ribbons are different lengths.

因为我们没有故意为难人，长的丝带代表1，短的丝带代表0。

And because we weren't being cruel, the long ones are ones and the short ones are zeros.

所以你要从边缘开始拼出一串比特，然后用密钥中的密钥与之进行异或运算。

So you assemble the string of of bits from the edge and XOR it with the key from the key.

在开头处，有一条小消息写着类似‘是的，你找到了’这样的话。

And then at the start of it, there's a little message that says something like, yes, you found it.

剩下的部分就是用于领取奖金的比特币交易的私钥。

And then the rest of it is the private key for the Bitcoin transaction transaction to claim the prize.

里面有很多干扰项。

A lot of red herrings in there.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但关键是，我不能代表玛格丽特说话，但我的记忆是，我们当时完全沉浸其中，还有很多人参与了这些谜题，这仅仅是我的经历和我对玛格丽特出色工作的部分贡献。

But this is the thing, and I can't speak for Marguerite here, but my memory of it is, we were so immersed in it and lots of other people had worked on these and this is just my experience and my sort of part of contribution to Marguerite's awesome stuff.

我们已经做过这么多谜题了。

We'd done so many of these puzzles.

我们一直专注于处理一些位字符串之类的东西，当时就想，不如再增加一点难度。

We'd sort of stuck to here's a bit string that you do things with or whatever, and we'd thought we'll make it just a little bit more difficult.

我觉得有一篇XKCD漫画讲的就是这个，两个物理学家说：哦，是的，我们不能假设他们懂高级算法。

I think there's an XKCD cartoon about this where it's two physicists going, Oh yeah, we can't assume they'll know advanced algorithm.

我们必须假设他们只懂物理领域的专业术语。

We'll have to assume that they just know a term of art if you're a physicist.

我想我们可能犯了个错误，以为每个人都懂位串和逻辑运算符，并能将它们与加密钱包在文化上联系起来。

I think we might have made the mistake of going, Oh yeah, everyone knows bit strings and logical operators and can relate them culturally to cryptographic wallets.

所以，是的，我们原本以为几周就能完成的事，结果花了好几年。

So, yeah, what we thought would take a couple of weeks took took a couple of years.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我我

So I I

制作起来一定很有趣吧。

It must have been so fun to make.

对我来说确实如此。

So it was for me.

玛格丽特，正如我所说，她不得不画出196个甚至更多的、极其清晰可辨的火焰纹样围绕边缘。

Marguerite, as I say, had to paint, I think, a 196 or possibly more perfectly distinguishable flames around the edge.

每当我见到她，我仍然为此向她道歉。

I I still apologize to her when I see her about that.

但就像玛格丽特的作品，以及我在短篇故事《坏 shybe》中亲切呈现的狗狗文化一样，这些是我对文化作为理解并真正实现加密货币的方式的见解——我不想说这是在‘销售’加密货币，因为人们并不是在这么做，而是通过文化来理解它。

But like that from Marguerite's work and the sort of Doge culture that I lovingly present in my short story Bad Shybe, these are my views into culture as a way of, I don't wanna say selling crypto because that's not what people are doing, but a way of understanding and making real crypto.

它就像是一个奇怪的小程序，来回传递数字。

It's like, oh, it's this weird little program that sends numbers around.

这如何融入社会？

How does that fit into society?

那种狗狗文化中的卓越与馈赠精神，那种他们在代币发布后短短两个月内建立起来的美德文化。

Sort of the Doge culture of excellence and gifting, the sort of virtue culture that they created in about two months when the co came out.

而艺术家们设计的拼图线索，将社区凝聚在一起，让人们学习这项技术、了解其文化与艺术，并共同追求这些目标，是非常有力的方式。

And coin artists puzzle trails which assembled the community around them, which learnt about the technology or learnt about the culture and about the arts and came together to pursue them were really powerful ways of doing that.

在结束我关于这个话题的长篇大论之前，这一切带来的结果是：我是一个来自良好欧洲左翼艺术圈的、典型的欧洲左派。

And the things that, before we stop me rambling on this topic, the thing that came out of all this was I'm a sort of good euro lefty from the good euro lefty art world.

在那个社会圈子里，加密货币被视为一种邪恶的右翼自由意志主义技术，本质上是为了推动法西斯主义。

To that social world, cryptocurrency was an evil right wing libertarian technology that was basically here to bring about fascism.

而过去的这些年，并没有让这种观点显得站不住脚。

And the intervening years haven't exactly been cruel to that viewpoint.

但拒绝去接触和理解它，导致左派在过去几年中提出了一些非常薄弱且严重误判的批评。

But the refusal to engage with it and understand it has led to some very weak, very misguided critiques from the left in the intervening years.

抱歉，你说的是拒绝理解什么？

Sorry, the refusal to understand what, sorry?

拒绝理解加密货币、区块链是如何运作的，以及它对使用者而言究竟意味着什么。

The refusal to understand how cryptocurrency, how the blockchain works and what it actually means to the people who use it.

我说的‘如何运作’，指的是工作量证明、交易如何进行，以及赛博朋克的无政府资本主义意识形态如何映射到这种技术的本质上——在系统批准交易的瞬间，你无法干预交易的完成。

And by how it works, I mean, you have proof of work, how transactions work, how the anarcho capitalist ideology of the cypherpunks maps onto why you have this technology where you cannot intervene at the completion of a transaction at the instantaneous moment of its approval by the system.

这一切如何与使用SHA-256生成无尽无意义的零串相关联。

How this all relates to and it uses SHA-two 56 to create endless pointless strings of zeros.

拒绝将这些视为除了邪恶产物之外的任何东西，比如‘Do'

The refusal to look at that as anything other than the product of evil, of Do

你是说像伊丽莎白·沃伦这样的人吗？

you mean from people like the Elizabeth Warrens?

哦，抱歉。

Oh, sorry.

不，不是的。

No, no.

我是说那种极左派。

I mean sort of far left.

不是。

No.

我是说，那些学术界、哲学界或文化研究领域的人？

So sort of, and any sort of academic, philosophical or cultural studies or what have you?

批判？

Critique?

利亚，你从一开始就身处其中，那时它还处于早期阶段，充满了这种技术可能带来的文化前景。而现在你已经在这里多年了，你觉得它兑现了当初的承诺吗？

Ria, being in it from the very beginning where it was sort of more of the very early days where there was more the promise of what the culture could bring to being in it now for a good number of years, do you feel like it's held up to its promise?

因为你非常活跃。

Because you are very active.

你在Discord上很活跃。

You're in Discord.

你经常发推文。

You tweet regularly.

也许不总是关于你的作品，但我感觉你深度融入了这个网络。

Well, maybe not always about your work, but I feel like you're very much into that you're in the network.

所以这很复杂。

So it's tricky.

我最初对区块链与艺术相遇的文化模型是观念艺术和网络艺术。

My cultural model for the encounter between blockchain and art originally was conceptual art and net art.

是观念艺术，因为你有一种无形的艺术形式，它抵制现有的流通网络，却很快被这些现有网络商品化，如今能卖出极高的价格，让创造者们既感到意识形态上的失望，又为财务上的收益而欣喜。

It was conceptual art because you had this intangible art form which was resistant to existing networks of circulation, was very quickly commodified by those existing networks and can now command a very high price to the ideological disappointment, the financial delight of the people who made it.

在网络艺术中，你成功地在它被简化为资本只想让你走的单一路径之前，就率先进入了网络。

With NetArt you had this successful attempt to get into the network first before it had been reduced to just the streamlined paths that capital wanted you to pursue.

在整个90年代，网络艺术比电子商务更先进，并曾多次成功抵制电子商务。

Net art was more advanced than e commerce throughout the '90s and successfully fought e commerce at one time or another.

这对我来说是一个非常有启发性的模式。

And that was very inspiring to me as a model.

所以当我想到

And so coming

你说网络艺术比电子商务更成功是什么意思？

How to the do mean it was more successful than e commerce?

它是怎么

How was the

网络？

network?

从目标来看，网络艺术旨在让人们获得一种对网络使用的颠覆性批判体验，而电子商务则希望人们提交信用卡信息，从网站上订购商品并等待配送。

I in terms of it had a set objective, which was to give people a disruptive critical experience of using the network versus e commerce which wanted people to hand over their credit cards and have something shipped to them from a website.

我相当确定，以任何合理的定义来看，.com电子商务出现时，网络艺术要么已经率先出现，要么几乎是同步诞生的。

I'm reasonably certain that by any decent definition of .com e commerce, Netart started first or at the very least instantaneously alongside.

那时候根本不能去亚马逊，更别提亚马逊当时还不存在了。

Couldn't just go to Amazon, ignoring the fact that Amazon didn't exist then.

你根本不能去亚马逊。

You couldn't just go to Amazon.

你面对的是一个更开放的网络，必须花力气去寻找内容。

You had this sort of more open network, and you had to work to find things on there.

而网络艺术会以独特的体验回报你的探索，告诉你网络还能做更多事。

And sort of NetArt rewarded you for that search with experiences that said there is more you can do with this.

网络的运作方式中，有许多值得你反思的地方。

There are ways this operates that you might want to reflect on.

与此同时，Pets.com却烧掉了数千万美元，却没能把猫粮送到加州人的手里。

And it was doing this at the same time as tens of millions of dollars were being burnt by pets.com to fail to send cat food to people in California.

在我看来，网络艺术在‘网络的用途是什么？’这一轮中赢了。

From my point of view, NetArt won round one of what is the network for?

或者说，‘网页的用途是什么？’

Or what is the web for?

而且显然，它也出现在邮件列表、新闻组和IRC聊天等各种地方。

And obviously it was on mailing lists and moves and IRC chats and everything as well.

但当我们现在说‘网络’时，不幸的是我们指的是万维网。

But when we say the net now, we unfortunately mean the web.

这就是那种观点。

That's that viewpoint.

区块链的发展符合我的信念：它最初会涌现出大量颠覆性、分散化的活动和新颖形式，尽管其核心目的是体现货币价值，但现有机构很难说：‘好吧，我们明白了，把它挂墙上就万事大吉了。’

And blockchain has followed my belief that you'd have this initial flourishing of disruptive and spread out activity and novel forms within it, which despite the whole point of it being to represent monetary value, that would be difficult for existing institutions to go, Okay, yeah, we've got this, we'll stick it on the wall and everything's fine.

这一切都发生了，然后每个人都试图为它建立大型中心化系统，但它们并未完全将其封闭，这令人惊叹和欣喜，人们仍在用这项技术做各种奇怪的事情。

So that all played out and then everyone tried to create large centralized systems for it and they haven't completely enclosed it, which is amazing and wonderful, and people are still doing weird things with the technology.

因此，我最初提出的‘临时自治区域’模型，其持续时间远超我的预期。

So my initial temporary autonomous zone model of it has stretched out far longer than I thought it would.

我原本只做了两三年与区块链相关的工作，之后就开始重新关注大数据。

It's like I originally, I did like two or three years of blockchain related work, then I started looking at big data again.

当时‘稀有艺术’和NFT的出现让我措手不及，因为我从网络艺术的角度认为，艺术界最自然的方式就是将智能合约作为艺术品，因为它们正是我们可以用来创作的最小单位。

And I was blindsided by the emergence of rare art as it was at the time and NFTs because I thought the obvious way to do an art world from a Net Art point of view is to have smart contracts as the artworks because they are the units, the creative units that we can do stuff with.

因为我当时是从一种批判性的、认为金钱是坏东西的视角来看待这个问题的，所以我完全忽略了这一点：这其实是一种前所未有的、无法用其他方式表达价值的绝佳方式。

Because I was coming at it from this critical money bad point of view, I'd completely miss that, no, this is a spectacular way of representing value that cannot otherwise be represented.

所以，现实中存在的稀有艺术世界对我来说是一个最终非常令人愉悦的惊喜。

So the actually existing rare art world was an ultimately very pleasant surprise to me.

但这并不是我几年前所想象的那个区块链艺术世界。

It wasn't a blockchain art world I'd imagined a couple of years previously.

但正如我至今所说，我对艺术家能够通过他们的艺术获得更好的生计感到非常欣慰。

But as I say to this day, I'm deeply relaxed about artists being able to make more of a living from their art.

而且，你知道，稀有艺术和NFTs成功地做到了这一点。

And sort of, you know, rare rare art managed to do this, NFTs managed to do this.

当你在Labs工作时，这在某种程度上影响了你的实践吗？是否身处其中让你有所启发？

And when you were at Labs, did that inform at all your practice in any way, being kind of in the midst of that?

是的。

Yes.

所以我曾经是Dappa Labs的员工。

So I'm a former employee of Dappa Labs.

我所说的任何内容都不属于私人信息，也不反映Dappa Labs当时的观点。

Nothing I say is private information or reflects the opinions of Dappa Labs at the time.

很好的免责声明。

Great disclaimer.

免责声明，免责声明，免责声明。

Disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer.

是的，确实如此。

Yes, absolutely did.

所以我去那里时，本质上是从猎人变成了看守者。

So I was very much poacher turned game keeper going there.

我又一次偶然地成为了一项冷门技术的专家，而这项技术突然变得非常抢手。

I'd sort of accidentally once again become an expert in a obscure technology, which suddenly was was very employable.

我在以太坊编程方面的经验，已经达到了可能的极限。

And I I did have as much experience programming Ethereum as it was possible to have.

我的第一个项目——那些为人所知的项目——是在以太坊正式发布前的预发布测试网上编写的。

My first projects, the ones that people know, were written on the pre release test net before Ethereum was even released.

所以我对这项技术相当了解。

So I kind of knew the tech.

而且多年来，还有人在社交媒体上对我大喊大叫，说我用这项技术是和魔鬼做交易。

And I'd also had people shouting at me on social media for years about how Satan for using this tech.

所以我确实有很好的

So I had a good

非常罕见。

very rare.

在预发布阶段就写下你的第一个项目意味着什么？

What what does that mean to to have written your first things on the pre release

技术？

tech?

哦，抱歉。

Oh, sorry.

以太坊项目始于公元Mumble年。

So the Ethereum project started in the year Mumble.

抱歉。

Sorry.

好吧，我们已经知道我记日期特别差，我不想把这次搞砸了。

Well, we've established that I'm so bad at dates, I don't want to screw this one up.

在代币发行准备的同时，软件也在开发中。

The software was being written whilst the token launch was being prepared and everything.

所以，开源软件在人们看来，就是你把代码直接丢到GitHub上，人们可以下载并运行它。

So the software was available because open source as people view it means sort of you just dump your code onto GitHub and people can download it and run it.

因此，每个人都能在软件开发过程中下载并运行它。

So I everyone could download and run the the software as it was being written.

而且因为这是网络软件，要测试它，你需要一个网络环境来进行测试。

And because this is networked software, to test it, you need a network to test it against.

但代币发布还要一年甚至十八个月之后。

But the the token release is still like a year, eighteen months out.

现在以太坊有测试网，它们的整个理念就是使用一种没有价值的货币。

There are test nets now for Ethereum, and the whole idea of them is that they have a currency that has no value.

几年前，当人们开始将该网络上的货币以实际价值出售时，他们不得不关闭其中一个测试网，因为这确实挺严重的，

They had to shut down one of the test nets years ago when people started selling the currency from it for actual value because it was quite Yeah,

区别在于一个是官方的，另一个是诚实的。

the difference is the fact that one is official, the other's honest.

是的，对。

Yes, yeah.

而且在安全机制等方面也存在差异。

And there's differences about the security scheme and so on.

就像你不会想把自己的最终价值数百万美元的系统部署在测试网上，因为它的安全性不如主网。

It's like you wouldn't want to put your final multi million dollar system on the testnet because it's not as secured as mainnet.

我现在把现在的论点完全说乱了。

I'm completely mangling the arguments here for the present day.

过去，这在某种程度上是成立的，但不管怎样。

In the past, this was kind of true, but anyway.

所以在发布之前，曾有过一个或一系列偶然的、短暂的测试网，你甚至可以在仅属于你自己的机器上部署软件。

So there was like a test net or a series of accidental ephemeral test nets prior to release, you could deploy software onto even if they're only on your own machine.

这些都被清理掉了。

And these were sort of wiped away.

这些是Vitalik在GitHub上分享的吗？

These are shared by Vitalik on GitHub?

或者

Or

所以，是的，代码——比如你作为网络客户端运行的以太坊节点，以及你使用的编程语言的编译器，我记得是Serpent，看起来像Python——都在GitHub上。

So, yeah, the the the code, like, the the the Ethereum node that you would run as as the the software, as the client for the network was on GitHub and the compiler for the programming language you use, which from memory was Serpent, which looks like Python was on GitHub.

你下载它们，编译大量的C++代码并运行，然后它就会连接到互联网，说：你好，还有其他人运行这个软件吗？

You download them, compile a lot of C plus plus run it, and it would then go onto the internet and say, hello, is anyone else running this software?

最终，它会找到其他运行相同软件的人并建立连接。

And eventually it would find someone else running the software and connect to it.

你会进行工作量证明，来扩展网络。

You'd sort of do the proof of work thing of extending the network.

然后你就可以向它部署合约并挖取ETH。

And then you could deploy your contracts to it and mine ETH.

我在使用测试网的时候确实持有过一些ETH，但那当然不是真正的ETH。

I was an ETH something in there when I was using the test net, but of course, it's not real.

所以这一切只是想说，我当时其实拥有过一种

So that's just all of this is just to say, like, I had sort of

所以那并不是真正的ETH。

So it wasn't actually ETH.

它更像是一个前身，比如一种ETH手续费？

It was like a a precursor, like, an ETH fee?

那是ETH上线时所使用的软件。

It was the software that was used when ETH went live.

所以那是ETH软件在开发阶段的产物，因为他们发布了白皮书，并开始朝着代币发布的方向努力。

So it was the ETH software in development because they published the white paper and they started working towards the token release.

他们拥有能够实现这一切的软件。

And they had the software that would realize all of this.

它只是被放在GitHub上，因为那就是人们当时工作的方式。

It was just on GitHub because that's how people work or worked.

所以你可以获取并使用它。

And so you could grab it and use it.

因为你正在使用它，而它的设计是用来生成一个网络，一个临时网络，你可以借此报告其中的任何漏洞。

Because you were using it and it's designed to generate a network, it generate an ephemeral network, which you could then complain about bugs in, if there were any.

我不记得报告过任何漏洞。

I don't remember complaining about any.

所以，总之，这一切只是想说明，我偶尔会说我有X年的以太坊经验，而人们会说，但你声称的那段时间以太坊还没发布，于是我不得不做一番长篇解释。

And so anyway, all of this is simply to say that I occasionally say I have x years of experience with Ethereum and people say, but it wasn't released until a year after I claim, and I then have to do this big long explanation.

但不管怎样，我曾经有

But anyway, I I had

当时你觉得这是改变世界的事吗？

Did it feel world changing at the time?

当时你觉得是的。

Did it feel Yes.

是的。

Yes.

它确实真的做到了。

It it it really it really did.

比如，我以前在本地编写过软件。

Like, I'd programmed software locally.

我写过文本和三维虚拟现实服务器上的软件，也写过服务器端软件之类的，但这次感觉就是不一样。

I'd programmed software on text and three d virtual reality servers, I'd programmed server side software and that kind of thing, and it did just feel different.

你拥有可编程货币这一点，是我以前从未遇到过的，他们举的例子，比如用五行代码实现Namecoin，这种东西真的让人震惊。

The fact that you had programmable money basically wasn't something that I had encountered before, and the examples that they gave of name coin in five lines of code and that kind of thing was fairly mind blowing.

所以，是的，这和网络上线相比根本不算什么。

So, yeah, it was nothing compared to the network going live.

但那个，是的。

But the yeah.

我能理解他们想达到的目标。

I can see what they're going for here.

我看出这个一定会成功。

I see that this is going to work.

我能看出我们能用这个做什么。

I can see what we we can do with this.

但你觉得NFT会兴起吗

But do you see NFTs coming

不会。

No.

不会。

No.

所以我写的那些合约，我是在从艺术品开始，模拟艺术世界，一直到博物馆和作品目录之类的，但从未有过。

So the the contracts that I wrote, I was sort of modeling the art world up from artwork to like museum and catalogue raison and stuff and at no point.

里面确实有可销售的艺术品，但它们处于合约层面，因为我认为合约是代码的明显单位。

And there are like saleable artworks in there, but they're at the level of the contract because I thought contracts were the obvious unit of of code.

我只是想问你

And I'm just can you

对不起。

I'm I'm sorry.

对于我这样不懂技术的人来说，你能解释一下这到底是什么意思吗？

For for someone like myself who's not technical, can you can you explain what that actually means?

当然可以。

Totally.

当你编写一个程序时，它是一段代码，你将其交给操作系统、硬件，或者在以太坊的情况下，发送到网络，让网络上的所有机器复制并运行。

So when you write a program, it's a blob of codes that you then sort of hand to an operating system or a piece of hardware, or in the case of Ethereum, you send to the network for all of the machines on the network to copy and run.

对于这段代码，有多种不同的称呼方式。

There are different ways of referring to that blob of code.

我们可以称它为程序、脚本或应用程序。

We can call it a programme, we can call it a script, we can call it an app.

由于历史原因，以及让律师们永远不悦，以太坊将这些代码块称为合约。

And for historical reasons and to the eternal non delight of lawyers, Ethereum calls its blobs of code contracts.

这是因为它们原本是基于尼克·萨博的工作设计的智能合约——再次向地球上所有名叫萨博的人道歉，他在上世纪90年代就提出了智能合约的概念。

Now this is because they were intended as smart contracts after the work of Nick Schabot, again I apologize to everyone on the planet who has a name, who came up with the idea of smart contracts like in the '90s.

他举的智能合约例子是：你不必走进商店，对店员说‘给我拿一罐苏打水，这是钱’。

And his example of a smart contract was rather than going into a shop and speaking to the shop clerk and saying, Here's some money, can I have a can of soft drinks please?

然后他们去给你拿罐饮料，再递给你。

And they go and get you the can and they hand you the drink.

你去自动售货机前，按下按钮，投进钱，饮料罐就出来了。

You go to an automatic vending machine, you press the button, pop some money in, out pops the can of drink.

这个合同——一个销售要约、对要约的接受、以及要约的履行——已经完成，而且是自动完成的，没有人类介入。

The contract, a financial offer for sale, acceptance of that offer, fulfillment of that offer has been completed, but automatically without a human being intervening at that time.

显然，许多人类参与了制造、测试这台机器，并确保机器确实被视为财产，你不能随便砸开机器拿走所有饮料罐。这个合同本质上是自动的，他们于是说：好吧，我们也可以用程序实现这种非人性化的要约、接受和合同履行。

Lots of human beings obviously have made the machine, tested the machine, ensured that the machine does actually count as property and you're not allowed to just break the machine open and take all of the cans, the contract is basically automatic and they said, Okay, we can do this with programs as well, software can be this kind of inhuman offer and acceptance and completion of a contract.

于是以太坊采纳了这个想法并加以发展。

And so Ethereum took this and ran with it.

他们认为：好吧，当你用人类可读的语言编写代码，并将其发送出去转换为发送到网络的数字时，你代码所打包在一起的东西就被称为合约。

They're like, okay, you can write smart so when you write the code in the human readable language that you send to be turned into the numbers that get sent to the network, the thing that your code is bundled together in is called a contract.

你说合约、我的合约或代码时，就用这个词来指代它。

You say contract, my contract or code, then you refer to it as that.

任何你拿给律师看的合同，他们都会立即告诉你：从法律意义上讲，它们根本不是合同。

As any lawyer you show this to will immediately tell you, they're not actually contracts in the legal sense.

普里马韦拉·德·菲利皮有一句关于NFT的精彩比喻，我从她那里借用了这句话：智能合约之于合约，就像考拉之于熊。

Primavera De Filippi has this wonderful quote that I stole from her on NFTs books, which is, Smart contracts are like contracts in the same way that koala bears are like bears.

这就像任何视觉上的相似都不代表功能或遗传上的相似。

It's like any visual resemblance is not a functional or genetic resemblance.

这些最初被设计用来实现金钱合同的要约与接受的机制，如今确实被用于以NFT形式代表财产，而NFT仍是一种可被交易的财产形式。

So these things which were originally were designed to allow you to have an offer and acceptance of some monetary contract have been used, sure, to represent property in the form of NFTs, which is still a form of property that you can enable for sale.

ERC721标准本身并未内置处理资金的机制。

The ERC721 standard doesn't have that handling of the money built in.

因此，你有一个代表财产的合约，但它并不代表价值。

So you have a contract that represents property, but that doesn't represent value.

财产的概念通常意味着它具有价值。

The idea of property is that it usually has value.

这种‘合约’的概念已经远远偏离了你我签署法律合同时所理解的含义。

This idea of a contract has drifted very, very, very far away from what you or I would sign our signatures onto as a legal contract.

所以你最初是把以太坊看作一个有趣的试验场，在那里你可以把程序当作艺术作品来创作，存在于这样一个世界中？

So you so you initially saw Ethereum as as as an interesting playground where you could basically write programs as as artworks on this kind of world?

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

而且这些可以被用作真正有用的工具。

And that could be used as actually useful tools.

我希望艺术界能够以批判性和创造性的方式参与这项技术，并且坦率地说，从中学到钱，因为艺术家总是需要更多资金。

I wanted the art world to engage sort of critically and creatively with this technology, and to be blunt to get money from it because artists can always use more money.

我还希望区块链圈、区块链世界能把艺术看作不是一种奇怪的、虚假的共产主义企图来偷走他们的牙刷，而是一个有益的创意试验场，在这里你可以创作出在链上实现非常复杂功能的艺术作品，即使出错，也不会因为区块链未能提供人们的食物或水而遭到监管机构的打击。

And I wanted the blockchain scene, the blockchain world to view art not as this weird, a fake commie attempt to steal their toothbrushes, but as a useful playground for ideas where you can make an artwork that does something very complex on chain and if it goes wrong, you're not going to get taken down by regulators for failing to provide people with their food or water via the blockchain.

我曾长时间对着虚空呐喊，但当我亲身体验了这种编码方式，以及接下来几年里不断有人拒绝理解区块链的工作原理、不得不一遍遍向他们解释、然后又得追赶NFT艺术界的发展时——比如《Furtherfield》一书《艺术家重新思考区块链》，其中收录了我的几件作品。

And I screaming into the void about this for a long time, but the experience I had of working with the code like this and then the experience over the next few years of people repeatedly refusing to understand how blockchains work and having to explain it to them, and then having to catch up with the NFT art world, The Furtherfield book, Artists Rethinking the Blockchain, which I have a couple of pieces in.

当这本书出版时，我想：哦，对啊。

When it came out, I thought, oh, yeah.

这太棒了。

This is great.

大约十八个月后，会有很多类似的书。

There'll be lots of books like this in about eighteen months.

但事实并非如此。

And it's like, nope.

目前仍然很少有书籍能如此认真地探讨区块链与艺术的关系。

There's still very few books that engage that seriously with with blockchain's relationship to art.

你为什么觉得这比仅仅创建一个网站并在上面运行程序有趣得多？

Why did you find it so much more interesting than just kind of being able to create a website and run a program on on that?

以 hindsight 来看，这是因为区块链是一种独特的、集规则、价值和美学于一体的媒介。

So with the benefit of hindsight, it's because it was a singular plastic medium for rules, value, and aesthetics.

一段代码就可以规定：如果你用这笔钱做这件事，就会产生这样的结果。

So a single blob of code could say, if you do this with this amount of money, this will result.

当然，你可以在网站上申请一个 PayPal 账户，用 PHP 写点东西，但真正吸引人的是这种社会协调性。

And sure, you can get a PayPal account on the website and and write something in PHP, but it was just the social coordination of it.

它是一种点对点的社会与经济开放交流媒介。

It was the peer to peer social and economic open communication medium of it.

当然，如果我们回溯二三十年前，那时人们自己制作网站，是的，那是一种同样的体验。

Sure, if we go back twenty, thirty years to the point where people did make their own websites, then yeah, that was the same experience.

我花了很长时间试图找出以太坊中相当于十分钟内写出自己主页的东西是什么。

I spent a long time trying to work out what the Ethereum equivalent of writing your own homepage in ten minutes was.

依稀记得，我始终没能给出一个明确的答案。

And from memory, never really came up with an answer to that.

是的，这种单一的、可塑性强的价值、规则与表达媒介，对我而言极具吸引力。

Yeah, just that singular plastic medium for value rules and representation was catnip to me.

在最初的以太坊实验之后，我一度使用了Counterparty的代币系统，因为它并不是那种线性的、一味追求复杂化的思路。

And after my initial Ethereum experiments, was then using Counterparty for a while, the token system, because it wasn't this linear, hey, let's improve the complexity of things.

而是说，哦，对，这是另一个有趣的新系统，我也来用一用。

Was, oh yeah, this is another interesting system that's come out, I'll use this as well.

所以再次强调，我不是什么先知，但当时也并不清楚哪种方式最终会胜出。

So once again, not a visionary, but also it wasn't clear at that moment which approach would come through.

我确实写过一个艺术市场合约，我想是在凯文·麦考伊发布Manograph两周后发布的。

I did write an art market contract, which I released I think two weeks after Kevin McCoy did Manograph.

看到它发布时我骂了不少脏话，但凯文是我非常要好的朋友。

Was swearing greatly when watching that being released, but Kevin's a very dear friend.

从那以后，他一直大力支持我的艺术创作。

He's been very supportive to the art and to me since then.

我很高兴最终是能应对实际运行系统所带来的关注的人做了这件事，而不是我。

So I'm glad someone who could cope with the attention that an actually running system gets did that rather than me.

但确实，当时并不清楚哪种方法会胜出，我绝对没想到，哦，我要用以太坊官网上的代币示例来实现这个。

But yeah, it wasn't clear what the winning approach would be, I certainly didn't think, oh yeah, I will use the token example from the Ethereum website to do this.

我会使用Counterparty或Dogeparty的实际运行代码，因为再次强调，我不是什么先知。

Will use the actually running code of Counterparty or Dogeparty because once again, not a visionary.

所以，这种使用技术、为技术辩护、创造性地思考技术的经历，虽然我没有计算机科学学位，但我有二十年的行业经验，这也算是一种资本。

So this experience of using the technology, having to defend the technology, how to creatively think about the technology, that I don't have a computer science degree, I do have twenty years of experience in industry, so that counts as something.

就像Dappa，我们在温哥华，当《艺术家重新思考区块链》发布时，我正好在温哥华，那正是CryptoKitties因过于成功而让以太坊网络瘫痪的一周——当时所有交易都是CryptoKitties交易。

Like Dappa, we're in Vancouver, I was in Vancouver when Artists Rethinking the Blockchain was released, that was the week that the CryptoKitties broke the Ethereum network by being so successful that all the transactions on it were CryptoKitties transactions.

就在我要发布《艺术家重新思考区块链》的两天前，我收到一条消息，说有一支本地开发团队也想做个演讲，你介意吗？

And so like two days before I was due to launch Artists Rethinking the blockchain that they control, I got a message saying, oh, there's a there's a local developer team who wants to give a talk as well, do you mind?

我当时说，好啊，这可是现代时代。

I was like, Yeah, sure, the modern era.

于是，我就在CryptoKitties团队发言之后上台了，他们刚说完：‘嗨，我们是CryptoKitties，我们让以太坊区块链崩溃了。’

And so that's how I got to go on stage after the CryptoKitties team had said, Hi, we're CryptoKitties, we broke the Ethereum blockchain.

他们演讲时，全场座无虚席。

The room was completely packed for them.

你知道那种噩梦般的经历吗？你知道我要说什么，对吧？

You know the nightmare experience of You know what I'm going to say, don't you?

如果你是压轴演出，而所有人都在等开场的本地团队，等他们一结束大家就走光了，最后只剩前排寥寥几人看着你。

So if you're like the headline act and everyone's there to see the local act that's opening for you and they will leave, so there's just a few people left at the front watching you.

是的，这就是我在CryptoKitties团队之后，演讲《艺术家重新思考区块链》时的经历。

Yeah, that was my experience of giving a talk about artists rethinking the blockchain after the CryptoKitties team.

不过，他们人真的很好。

Again, they were lovely.

有一些留下来听我演讲的人，我一直和他们保持联系，是的，在Dappa工作非常棒，但它影响了我后来的事业，因为

They have some of the people who stayed to watch my talk and I kept in touch with them and yeah, working for Dappa was amazing, but it informed what I do because

所以你是之后加入他们的团队的吗？

So you you joined their team after

几年后才加入的。

after you think about A few a few years later.

这并不是出于同情的聘用。

It wasn't like it wasn't a pity hire.

所以几年后我加入了他们，参与了他们开发的Cadence编程语言，这门语言非常棒。

So I I joined them a few years later and I worked on the Cadence programming language that they wrote, which is wonderful.

我的职责是为使用它设计惯用法，并向人们解释如何使用它，而我之前的背景正好完美契合。

Was there to come up with idioms for using it and explain to people how you use it, which you can see from the background I had was perfect.

我还负责确保合约的安全性。

And also I worked on making sure that contracts were secure.

有一段时间，我绝对是世界上阅读过最多Cadence代码的人。

I was definitely the person who had read the most cadence code of anyone in the world at one point briefly.

阅读那些你知道将承载数百万、数千万，甚至在某些情况下价值数亿美元的代码，这种责任感会让你全神贯注。

The responsibility of reading through code that you know is going to be load bearing for millions or tens of millions or in a couple of cases, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of value, it focuses your attention.

任何正在观看这段视频并持有任何橡胶软管的人，我都没有密钥，没有访问权限，也没有来自Dappa的任何代码。

For anyone watching this who's holding any rubber hose, I have no keys, no access, no code from DAPA.

请不要绑架我。

Please do not kidnap me.

我无法带你接近他们。

I will not be able to get you anywhere near them.

但那种见证他人代码的经历——思考他们想实现什么，我们该如何引导人们正确使用，运行这段代码在区块链网络上的成本会有多高（因为你需要为在区块链网络上运行代码付费），这会如何影响安全性，以及在文化层面如何影响人们的接受度和理解方式——这一切都令人难忘。

But that experience of seeing other people's code, thinking this is what they're trying to do, this is how we think people should do things, these are the implications in terms of how much it will cost to run the code on the network because you pay for running the code on a blockchain network, this is how it would affect security, here's how it would affect things in terms of adoption culturally, terms of people understanding it.

那真是太棒了。

That was amazing.

我把它比作参与开发Macintosh的经历——能够在一项真正具有开创性的项目早期阶段参与其中，并塑造其发展方向。

I described it as my making the Macintosh experience, that ability to be early on a truly groundbreaking project and getting to shape its development.

我从未想过自己能有机会做这样的事，而能持续几年时间，简直不可思议。

I never thought I would get to do anything like that, and to get to do it for a couple of years absolutely amazing.

而真正体验到设计这些系统所面临的压力，以及其中的权衡取舍，这种经历非常宝贵。

And the experience of really experiencing the design pressures of making that stuff work and experiencing the trade offs of it.

听起来可能有点自大，但它证明了我确实理解得很透彻，也帮助我更全面地理解了这些事情。

It sounds arrogant, but it underlined that I had understood things well, And it then helped me understand things more completely.

你当时还在继续创作吗？你是怎么看待自己的艺术作品的？

Were you on the side still making, like how were you approaching your artwork?

你是不是一直在不停地写作？

Are you just constantly writing?

我想象你应该是

I imagine you're

如果你看一下网站上的日期，会发现我有一些时期几乎没有创作什么作品。

So if you look at the dates on the website, there are various periods where I didn't make very much a heart.

我在2021年选择退出，因为我在等待权益证明的落地，现在我对此深感懊悔，因为我没有因为不破坏环境而获得任何‘好女孩积分’。

I sat out twenty twenty one because I was waiting for proof of stake, which I now bitterly regret because I didn't get any good girl points for not destroying the environment.

那段时间，很多人卖作品都卖得不错。

And lots of people sold work quite well during that time.

所以，恭喜伦理观。

So yay ethics.

当我有雇主时，我会感到有责任，因此即使忽略任何书面文件，我也觉得不应给他们惹麻烦。

When I have an employer, I do feel unabound, So ignoring anything on any pieces of paper, do feel on the bound not to cause trouble for them.

所以我在社交媒体上变得安静了一些。

So I was a bit quieter on social media.

在那时，我根本不可能使用Flow区块链创作艺术作品。

It wouldn't have been possible for me to make art using the Flow blockchain at that time.

而且我觉得如果去使用它就不够正直，因此我选择在以太坊上做事情，因为它是一个更好的替代方案。

And I didn't feel it would have been honorable to go, and therefore I'm going to do stuff on Ethereum, which this is a better replacement for.

所以我不记得那时是否做过什么，但我确实那段时间的作品少了很多。

So I don't remember if I did do anything during that time, but I certainly did less during that time.

但确实，事情一直在继续推进。

But yeah, things kept moving on.

你会看到加密文化在艺术界一波又一波地兴起，尤其是当我进入NFT时代之后。

You see waves of crypto culture in the arts, particularly once I hit the NFT era.

因此，存在证明很大程度上是对加密加密确定性这一概念的过度夸大。

So proof of existence was very much about this over egging of the idea of crypto proof of cryptographic certainty.

Facecoin 关注的是工作量证明中的能源浪费问题。

Facecoin was about energypurpose wastage in proof of work.

早期的 NFT 项目，比如‘代币等于文本’，某种程度上是我的反应：哦，你们做了比我更好的东西。

The early NFT ones, tokens equals text was sort of my, Oh, you've done something better than I did.

好吧，我会做比你们更好的东西，因为这是 ERC 9.98，而不是 07/21。

Okay, I will do something better than you because it's ERC $9.98 rather than 07/21.

同样，这也是人们开始意识到，在一个合同、一个系统、一个庞大世界中，独特拥有某物是如此困难的时期。

And again, it's the era where people were starting to work out that it was difficult to uniquely own something when that notion of ownership is within one contract, within one system, within an enormous world.

因此，‘代币等于文本’探讨的就是真实性与所有权的难题。

And so Tokens equals Text is about that problem of authenticity and ownership.

而‘非真实性证书’也涉及这样一个问题：我如何知道我买的这幅《蒙娜丽莎》复制品是真正的《蒙娜丽莎》？

And certificate of inauthenticity is also about how do I know that this copy of the Mona Lisa I have bought is the actual Mona Lisa?

你很可能不知道，也几乎不可能用我们现有的系统确认，所以不如反其道而行之，给你一份证书，明确告诉你：你手里的绝对不是真正的里亚·迈尔斯作品，这只是你自己做的东西。

Well you probably don't and you probably can't using the systems we have, so let's go in the other direction and give you a certificate that says you absolutely do not have an authentic Ria Myers artwork here, it's just something that you've done yourself.

我跟这事儿一点关系都没有。

I've had nothing to do with it.

然后博物馆总想让我告诉他们该怎么正确安装。

And then museums always want me to tell them how to install it properly.

你是在设陷阱给我吗？

I'm like, are you trying to entrap me?

你们的律师是不是已经在线上等着说，但合同里写明了你与此事毫无关系？

Do you have your lawyers on the call ready to say, but the contract says that you've had nothing to do with it.

但现在他们都变得很友善了。

But now they're always lovely.

这种对加密文化的沉浸让我创作出了触及更广泛议题的作品，这些作品基于这种理解，在另类世界和加密世界中都显得既富有见识又与众不同。

This immersion in crypto culture did allow me to make work which touched on wider concerns, but which was both literate and unusual to both alt world and crypto world on the basis of that understanding.

不过别跳过太多内容，当我们谈到当前时代的一些作品，比如‘碎片化的阳具’，这名字就说明了一切。

And not to skip too much work, but when we get to the current era with things like the fractionalized phallus, which is case what it's name implies.

我在PGY里解释过这个吗？

I explain this in the PGY?

几年前，在那之前，我做了性别重置手术，并扫描了我身体中被用于手术的那部分。

I had gender reassignment surgery a few years ago before that happened, I took a scan of the part of my body that was recycled for that.

这个扫描文件多年来一直搁置着，因为我一直难以直视它。

The scan was just hanging around for years whilst I sort of got over having to look at it.

我妻子希望我把它做成一个三维打印品，做一个叫‘去你妈的’的项目，但那不可能发生。

My wife wanted me to make a three d print of it and do a project called Go Fuck Yourself, but that's not going to happen.

她是那个意思，但你知道的。

She mean it like that, but you know.

所以最终我想，哦，有了，我可以把它切成香肠片，做成小硬币，以此来tokenize男性气质的主导符号。

So eventually I thought, oh I know, I will slice it into salami sections and make little coins of it, which will tokenise the master signifier of masculinity.

哦，男性气质，真是个好词。

Was Oh, masculinity, great term.

这是法国哲学家、骗子雅克·拉康提出的概念，他深受许多许多人喜爱，这些人

It's Jacques Lacan, the French philosopher and fraud who is beloved of many many many people who

他管这个叫什么？

knew What does he call this?

好吧，这可以留到另一次讨论。

Well, that's one for another discussion.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

我们目前不会深入讨论这一点。

We won't we won't go into that just at this point.

所以，总之，当我大致想清楚能怎么处理它的时候，那正是2024年，唐纳德·特朗普说：不，我有权利再次当选总统。

So anyway, around the time I sort of worked out what I could do with it, this was the 2024 when Donald Trump was like, no, I am entitled to be president again.

美国企业界迅速意识到，这种情况真的会发生。

And American corporate culture very quickly worked out that, no, this was going to happen.

他们觉得，我们需要让一切更阳刚。

Was like, we need to make everything more manly.

一切都需要更阳刚。

Everything needs to be more manly.

看到超验的、大豆 cuck、马克·扎克伯格居然说：是的，Facebook 需要一种更阳刚的文化。

Seeing transcendental, soy cuck, Mark Zuckerberg sort of say, yes, Facebook needs a more masculine culture.

这就像是，好吧，你打算怎么做到呢，老兄？

It's like, okay, how are you gonna do that my dude?

就像，随便你吧。

Like, sort of knock yourself out.

而这个问题的答案，当然是这种象征阳刚的符号化标志，个人或企业可以通过购买它来让自己变得更男人。

And the answer to that was, of course, this sort of tokenised signifier of masculinity is something that individuals or corporations could buy in to become manlier.

因为还有什么比阴茎更男人呢？

Because like, what is manlier than the phallus?

对于那些看不懂人类表情、听不惯我这平淡语调的人来说，这其实有着极高的讽刺意味。

And for those of you who can't read human expressions and don't really follow my rather monotone voice, this is a very high level of irony.

但不管怎样，我当时正在写代码，用来加载三维扫描数据并将其切片。

But anyway, so I was sort of writing the code to load in the three d scan and slice it up.

我做的第一个模型，并不是从上到下切分，而是沿着将扫描点云拼接在一起的算法路径进行的。

And the first one I did, it followed not top to bottom, but the way that the algorithm that had glued together the point cloud from the scan had gone.

所以它是从左到右扫描的。

So it swept from left to right.

于是你得到了一些非常奇怪的形状，一开始像鲨鱼咬过的缺口，然后变成了巨大的奇怪环状，最后变成了两个相对的泪滴形。

And so you got these really weird shapes that started out as like shark jaw bite shapes, and then became these big weird rings and then became a couple of teardrops opposite each other.

我当时想，哦，这真不错。

And I was like, Oh yeah, that's really good.

我不会去调试这个。

I'm not going to debug this.

我要把故障（Glitch）与女性特质的关联也融入进去。

I'm going to take the feminine association with Glitch and put that in there as well.

所以这些就是你可以购买的男性气质象征，以便在一切都要更阳刚的时代，提升你自己或你所工作的公司的男性气质。

So these are sort of tokens of masculinity that you can buy in order to increase the masculinity of yourself or the corporation that you work for in an era where everything has to be manlier.

至于区块链部分，代码层面的智能合约根本没什么意思。

And the blockchain stuff there, it's like there's nothing interesting in the smart contract on the code level.

在区块链世界中，碎片化这个概念依然很流行。

The idea of fractionalization continues to be popular in the blockchain world.

几个月后，一家区块链公司在推特上发布了一段极其糟糕的宣传视频，声称‘觉醒时代结束了’，结果被网友骂得狗血淋头，很快就被撤下了。

And a few months after this, one blockchain company did a very disastrous, oh, thank God, woke is over' promotional video on Twitter, which they were dragged to hell and back for, and very quickly took down.

这一切都是在这样的环境下发生的，但有了区块链的代币化和碎片化这些概念，我就能迅速以这种方式做出回应，并对创作过程中出现的任何反馈保持开放态度。

This was the environment this was made in, but having these blockchain ideas of tokenization and fractionalization to hand meant I could do something very quickly about it in this way and be open to what came in through the process of making it.

所以，你发布了吗，里亚？

So did you release it, Ria?

是的，发布了。

Yes, yes.

我在柏林办了一场展览——哦，

So I had a show in Berlin- Oh,

和纳格尔·德拉克塞尔合作的，对吧。

with Nagel Draxler, that's right.

是的，纳格尔·德拉克塞尔的代币已经上线了。

Yes, Nagel Draxler token's available.

请提醒纳格尔·德拉克塞尔去购买这款可爱的作品。

Please ask Nagel Draxler to they're buy lovely.

因此，那个展览中的新作品，因为它们很好地说明了这个过程，是《碎片化宫殿，非》，这是一个不贬低、不披露、不竞争的合同，它不是NFT，但如果你同意它，你就能以某种方式拥有这个NFT。

And so, the new works in that show, because they're good for illustrating the process, were The Fractionalised Palace, Non, which is a non disparagement, non disclosure, non compete contract, which isn't an NFT, but which if you agree to it, you somehow own the NFT.

这三个项目最终都围绕着主观性展开，就像我是在‘4年、5年’期间制作它们的。

And it's very much the sort of process All three projects ended up being about subjectivity, it's like I made them over the '4, '5.

所以它们最终都聚焦于主观性。

So they all ended up being about subjectivity.

因此，碎片化的阳具探讨的是父权制度下的主体。

So the fractionalised phallus is about the subject within patriarchy.

《非》探讨的是技术资本、风险投资和初创公司领域中的主体。

Non is about the subject within techno capital venture capital startup land.

它将系统中的所有者或观者——假设他们是该系统中的赋权主体——置于与系统内员工相同的位置，但通过这种方式创造了一个自由的主体。

And it puts the owner or the viewer who is presumably an empowered subject within that system in the same position as an employee within it, but creates a free subject by doing so.

另一个是，天啊，最后一个叫什么来着。

And the other one is Oh God, what's the last

我的意思是，我们得把展览的照片发到艺术平台上。

I mean, we're going to have to post the pictures of the exhibition on the arts.

非常精美。

Are exquisite.

是的，我其实想问问你关于你工作的经历。

Yeah, I want to ask you actually about your experience as well working.

这是一家很棒的画廊。

It's such a great gallery.

它们真的、真的、真的、真的很好。

They are really, really, really, really good.

对。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我只是在努力回想我自己的作品，因为我今天早上起得很早。

I'm just trying to remember my own art because I woke up early this morning.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

自我标识是另一个。

Self identifying was the other one.

所以自我标识是一些后置脚本程序，它们是生成艺术，会生成一幅图像。

So self identifying is some postscript programmes which they're generative art, so they make an image.

它们是Equine，这是一个会打印自身源代码的程序。

They're equine, which is a programme which prints its own source code.

而最终，它们是密码朋克的政治主体，因为它们能够创建、控制并用自己的加密密钥对输出进行签名，而这些密钥恰好是由其源代码唯一标识的哈希值生成的。

And ultimately they are a cypherpunk political subject because they are something that creates and controls and signs its output with its own cryptographic keys, which just so happen to be made from the hash from the unique identifier for their source code.

所以它们是密码朋克主体，这就是它们之间的关联。

So they're a cypherpunk subject is how that relates.

之所以使用PostScript，是因为我在艺术学院时学过PostScript，那是当时所有打印内容最终都会用到的编程语言。

And the reason it's Postscript is when I was at art school, I learned Postscript, which was the programming language that everything that was printed was rendered in at some time or another at that time.

它看起来有点像比特币的脚本，也就是比特币使用的编程语言。

And it looks a bit like Bitcoin's script, a bit like the programming language that Bitcoin uses.

如果你懂编程语言，它们本质上都是第四代语言，基于栈的前缀语言。

If you do programming languages, they are both basically fourths, they're stack based prefix languages.

如果你不懂，就听我的吧，它们有着模糊的共同渊源。

If you don't, take it from me, they share a vague ancestry.

于是我翻出了九十年代初为英国Gazelle展览写的Postscript病毒，人们非常喜欢，甚至付钱让我用这个Postscript病毒来搞乱他们的项目标志或白皮书。

And so I dusted off the postscript viruses I'd written in the early nineties for a show at Gazelle in in The UK, and people really like this and were paying me to glitch up their their project logos or white papers using the Postscript virus.

而这种Postscript与Bitcoin脚本之间的相似性——我过去曾向人们提起过——被这件事深深印证了。

And this resemblance between Postscript and and Bitcoin script, which I'd mentioned to people in the past was driven home to me by this.

因此，在自识别程序背后，有一种‘如果你向火星人糟糕地解释比特币’的假设。

And so behind self identifying, there's this sort of what if you explained Bitcoin badly to a Martian?

他们问：‘像这样吗？’

And they said, what like this?

他们说这是一种基于栈的语言，能进行加密运算等等，好吧，没错，它确实具备这些特性，但并不是以正确的方式实现的。

Like they said it was a stack based language, it does cryptography and stuff like Okay, yeah, it is all of those things, but it's not the things in the right way.

显然我还没表达清楚，让我们再试一次。

Like I clearly did not quite let's try again.

从那以后，事情不断演变，我做出了某种能够以一种任何拥有健全自我意识或表达观念的人都会感到不安的方式自我表达的东西，但我觉得这非常有趣。

And from that it just cascaded to making something that could express itself in a way that anyone who has a decent definition of self or expression would be very upset by, but I thought it was really fun.

我想现在是不是该谈谈你的作品了，是的，杰米。

I wonder if it's time to speak about your work that yes, Jamie.

我真的很抱歉。

I'm really sorry.

是的。

Yeah.

我们显然需要深入探讨优质新闻的内容，但我只是很好奇，里亚。

We definitely obviously need to get into quality news for it, but just really curious, Ria.

比如，你从艺术学校背景出发，如今却如此深入地涉足加密世界。

Like, you've been, yeah, coming from a art school background to being as deep in the crypto world as you are.

你如何看待自己作为一个艺术家在世人心中的形象？

How do you think about how you would like to be perceived by the world as an artist?

我想这算是一个关于艺术界和加密艺术界的问题。

I guess it's a kind of like art world, crypto art world question.

Noggle Dracs 是一家艺术界画廊，但你觉得

Noggle Dracs are an art world gallery, but do you feel that

它们很出色。

they have lovely.

它们能否有效地向更广泛的受众传达你作品的真正含义？

Are they able to, like, effectively communicate what your work is

真的吗？

really about to a wider audience?

是的。

Yeah.

在我刚开始做这类作品的头几年，我的工作在英国和欧洲的一些公共画廊与加密会议之间平均分配，这些画廊有向公众展示新艺术的使命，而加密会议则需要一些文化声望。

So the the first sort of the first few years where I was doing this kind of work, it was a straight split between public galleries in The UK that sort of had a and Europe that had like a mission to sort of show new art to people and crypto conferences, which needed some cultural cachet.

因此，它们会摆放一些展示加密艺术的显示器。

And so they'd have like some monitors with crypto art on.

确实有一些非常出色的展览由此诞生，因为它们邀请了正确的人。

And some very good shows did actually come out of that because they asked the right people.

我依然非常不擅长社交，所以并不认识什么位高权重的加密圈人士。

I'm still extraordinarily bad at networking, so I don't sort of really know any high placed crypto people.

我相信，任何我认识的位高权重的加密圈人士听到我说这话，都会感到非常不快。

I'm sure any high placed crypto people I do know who hear this are horribly offended by me saying that.

如果你是位高权重的加密圈人士，而我认识你，对不起，我觉得你非常出色，我并不是想质疑你的地位，只是前面提到过我的社交能力有限。

If you are a high placed crypto person and I know you, I'm sorry, I think you're brilliant, and I'm not trying to challenge your position, just see earlier comment about social skills.

在艺术界，我本身就是从艺术界出来的。

In the art world, I I came from the art world.

NFT最初源自艺术界，也源自互联网文化。

NFTs came from the art world originally and from sort of Internet culture.

NFT源自艺术界。

NFTs came from the art world.

是的。

Yeah.

所以《单人专集》和《量子》是由纽约艺术家凯文·麦考伊创作的。

So monograph and Quantum were made by Kevin McCoy, who's a New York based artist.

古老的Ascribe系统，现在人们已经不记得了，当时参与这个项目的人中有一位艺术史学家。

The ancient Ascribe system, which people don't remember now, one of the people working on that was an art historian.

我是一名艺术家。

I'm an artist.

我早期为以太坊的智能合约做了各种概念验证工作。

I did the early Ethereum proof of concept stuff for smart contracts for all different sorts of things.

加密谜题线索的文化背景源自玛格丽特·德·科塞洛，她是一位艺术家。

And the culture that informed crypto puzzle trails came from Marguerite de Corsello, who's an artist.

那种在早期NFT时代之前兴起并席卷而来的稀有艺术浪潮，我该怎么表达呢？

And the rare art wave that sort of predates and swept through the early NFT era came from how do I phrase this?

某种程度上源自4chan的Pepe粉丝文化，这是一种文化现象，而非技术现象。

Sort of 4chan Pepe fandom, which was sort of a a cultural thing rather than a technological thing.

所以这并不是所谓的加密兄弟们对无辜艺术家的冒犯与侵占。

So it wasn't this sort of imposture by the mythical crypto bros upon innocent artists.

而是艺术界人士，他们有着真实的历史性问题需要解决，并抓住了这项新技术所提供的可能性。

It was art world actors with genuine historical problems to solve, who took the opportunity, took the affordances that this new technology presented.

那么，我希望被如何铭记或看待呢？

So how would I like to be remembered or perceived?

我总是说，我希望在艺术史上留个注脚就好，因为我本质上是个混搭艺术家。

I always said I would like a footnote in art history please, because I'm very much a remix artist.

我擅长取法他人之作，并从中创造性地提取剩余价值，我对自己的工作感到非常自豪。

I'm someone who takes what others have done and extracts surplus value from it creatively, and I'm very proud of what I do.

但当然，我还是希望那个注脚能有我一份。

But yeah, I'd like that footnote please.

我很高兴我们已经超越了计算机艺术和艺术与科技的时代，我很高兴在当今这个时代，人们仅仅把我当作一位艺术家来看待。

I'm glad that we're beyond the eras of computer art and art and technology, I'm glad that I can just be seen as an artist in this era.

作为早期的NFT艺术家度过了几年后，如今能被看作一位创作新作品、且人们因作品本身而非其创作年代而感兴趣的艺术家，这让我感到非常安心。

And having been an earlyhistoric NFT artist for a few years, now just being seen as an artist who's making new work which people are interested in for reasons other than the date of its production is very reassuring to me.

所以，某种意义上，就是个喜欢摆弄技术的艺术家。

So yeah, some sort of artist who fucks around with technology.

理查德·巴罗布鲁克和已故的安迪·卡梅隆写过一篇精彩的文章，名叫《加利福尼亚意识形态》。

There's this wonderful essay by Richard Barbrooke and the late Andy Cameron called The Californian Ideology.

这个名字是对卡尔·马克思的《德意志意识形态》的引用。

The name's a reference to Karl Marx's The German Ideology.

它对硅谷共享美学与其租金抽取伦理之间的差距进行了公正而深刻的批判。

And it's a very fair, informed critique of the gap between Silicon Valley's aesthetic of sharing and its ethic of rent extraction.

我常开玩笑说，我把这当作了一部宣言，而不是一种批判。

And I often joke that I've taken that as a manifesto rather than a critique.

所以，如果有人不记得我因为这个，那就太好了。

So if anyone can not remember me for that, that would be great.

我希望能有比这更积极一些的评价。

I'd like something more positive than that.

杰米已经问过这个问题了，但回到纳格尔德雷克勒，那是一家正规画廊，他们的观众更偏向传统艺术界。

Jamie already asked this, but going back to Nagel Drexler, which is a proper gallery, they have more of a traditional art world audience.

人们能理解你的作品有多少？

How much of your work do people understand?

所以纳格尔特拉克勒一直非常棒。

So Nagel Traxler have been absolutely wonderful.

他们的策展人对我的作品的理解可能比我还要深刻。

Their curators understand my work probably better than I do.

如果有人不清楚SHA-256哈希到底是什么，他们依然能欣赏这件作品以及我所做的事情。

And if anyone doesn't understand exactly what a SHA-two 56 hash is, they appreciate the work and appreciate what I'm doing.

他们真的非常出色，我对此感激不尽，因为我的作品原本就是为艺术界语境而创作的。

So they've been absolutely brilliant and I'm fantastically grateful to them because the work was always intended for an art world context.

我在社交媒体上扮演着一个角色，喊着‘烧掉画廊，把灰烬代币化’，这没问题，但我预想的模式一直是：先繁荣，然后被收编。

And like I have and do play a character on social media who's like, burn down the galleries, tokenise the ashes, and it's like, that's fine, but my model of what would happen was always there will be this flourishing and then there will be a recuperation.

我始终希望我的作品能出现在画廊里，而那些为展览特别创作、在纳格尔德雷克勒展出的作品，都是经过精心设计的，既要适合画廊展示，也要适合放在人们的钱包里和墙上。

And I always wanted the work to be in galleries, and that the work that has been shown in Nagel Drexler that was made newly for the shows was absolutely very carefully designed to look good in a gallery and in people's wallets and on the wall.

但你们对我如此友善，给了我这个机会。

But it was like, you are being very kind to me and giving me this opportunity.

我不希望因为给了你们一些在这些绝佳空间里看起来糟糕透顶的东西，而辜负了你们给我的这份机会。

I don't want to fuck you over by giving you something that looks terrible in these wonderful spaces you're giving me this opportunity in.

因为我出身于艺术背景，我的作品从一开始就是为这个语境而设计的，所以我根本不需要做任何改变。

Because I come from that art or background, because the work has always been intended to work in that context, I didn't have to change anything.

事实上，这让我能够更进一步，不再只是简单地制作出可以打印的作品。

Indeed, it sort of allowed me to go further in terms of not I will make this absolutely so that it can be printed.

这太棒了。

That's great.

我和纳格尔·德雷克勒开玩笑时总说，我不断请策展人把作品用乙烯基剪贴字母的形式贴在墙上，就像商店橱窗里常见的那种促销标语，或者在当代艺术画廊里常见的概念艺术形式。

And the thing that I joke about Nagel Draxler with is I kept on asking curators to put the work on walls as vinyl cutout letters, like you get in windows in shops just sort of sale now on or in galleries where it's conceptual art.

纳格尔·德雷克勒是第一个这样做的，效果好得惊人。

And Nagel Drax were the first ones to do it and it looked so good.

我当时就想，是的，我就知道这会成功。

I was like, yeah, I knew this would work.

我绝对没有对其他预算较低、时间有限或无法为单件作品投入更多精力的优秀策展人表示不敬。

And absolutely no disrespect to other lovely and brilliant curators with lower budgets or less time or less time to focus on me for a presentation of a single work.

但确实，效果太棒了，和那些热衷于我的作品、花大量时间和精力去理解并以最佳方式呈现它的传统画廊合作，简直完美。

But yeah, it looked so good and working with traditional gallery who are enthusiastic for the work and spent a hell of a lot of time and effort on understanding the work and showing it in its best light is absolutely wonderful.

正如我所说，这并不是不尊重我合作过的其他优秀画廊和策展人，只是这次我得让自己当一下主角。

As I say, this is not to disrespect and if the other wonderful galleries and curators I've worked with, it's just I got to be the main character with this a bit more.