第五季第12集：丘比特遇见康斯特布尔与特纳

朱斯蒂贾尼是一位了不起的收藏家。

Giustigiani was an amazing collector.

他是一名银行家，但像文人一样收藏，热爱音乐，而文森佐对卡拉瓦乔着了迷。

He's a banker, but collected a man of letters, loved music, and Vicenso was obsessed by Caravaggio.

任何出现在市场上的画作，他都会立刻买下，但他尚未真正委托创作过一幅作品。

Any picture that would appear on the market, would snap up, but he hadn't yet actually commissioned one.

这是朱斯蒂贾尼首次与卡拉瓦乔合作完成的委托作品。

And this is the first commission that Giussi Andy is able to to work on with Caravaggio.

让我们为我们的听众描述一下这幅画。

Let's describe it for our listeners here.

那么，我们看到了什么？

So what have we got?

我们看到一个赤身裸体的年轻男孩，他是丘比特，对吧？

We've got a a naked young boy, he's Cupid isn't he?

他手里拿着一些箭，周围环绕着各种物品。

He's holding some arrows and he's surrounded by various bits and pieces.

我们看到的是什么？

What are we looking at?

我们看到一个完全赤裸的男孩。

We are seeing a young boy completely naked.

他是个十几岁的少年，大概十二三岁。

He's a sort of teenage boy, probably 12, 13.

他的身体非常美丽，看起来更像运动员的身体，有些人质疑这个身体是否真的属于这个头颅。

A very beautiful body, a body that looks more like a sort of athlete's body, and some people question whether the body actually belongs to the head.

在这个非常年轻、顽皮的男孩脸上，却有着可能更健壮、更接近青少年的身体，这种对比显得很奇怪。

And there is that sort of strange sort of contrast between this very youthful, cheeky looking young boy with a body that is possibly a bit more athletic, bit more of an adolescent's body.

所以这里有一种拼贴的感觉，我觉得这让人不安。

So there's a bit of cut and paste going on which is unsettling I would say.

他带着一种顽皮的微笑看着你，脸上泛着红晕，头发凌乱，那笑容仿佛他无所不知。

And he's looking at you with this sort of very cheeky smile, there's a sort of ruddiness in the face, very messy hair, and that smile, he's all knowing.

是啊，这是一张小混混的脸，对吧？

Yeah, it's a scamp's face, isn't it?

这是一条街道，它是

It is a street It's

清楚了，伙计，在街上有人会偷你的手表。

clear dude steal your watch in the street.

确实有那么一点，我得承认，这幅画在很多方面都令人震惊，但真正让我震惊的是那脏兮兮的脚趾甲。

There's a bit of that, and I have to admit, the picture is shocking in many ways, but the thing that really shocked me was the dirty toenails.

那双脚真的让我很受冲击。

The the foot really got me.

我实际上差点有点……不是恶心，但有点不舒服，嗯。

I it actually almost made me a bit it's not sick, but a bit uneasy about Yeah.

它很脏。

It's got dirty.

因为卡拉瓦乔以使用真人模特而闻名。

Because Caravaggio was famous for using real models.

我的意思是，传说中你会去市场，随便找个人带进工作室。

I mean, the the myth is that you go out to the markets and just find people and bring them in the studio.

但你感受到这个小男孩的这种真实感——他是个活生生的人，这种感觉是无法回避的，不是吗？

But this tangibility that you have of this young boy, in the sense of him being someone real, I mean, that is just unavoidable, isn't it, the feeling you have for that?

嗯，我想，对于丘比特来说，他是爱神，维纳斯的儿子，战神玛尔斯的儿子。

Well, I guess, you know, for Cupid, I mean, he's the god of love, the son of Venus, the goddess of love, the son of Mars, the god of war.

通常情况下，他会被稍微理想化，带点女性化的特征。

Here, you know, normally he's slightly idealized, slightly feminine.

但在这里，你突然看到一个真实的男孩扮演丘比特，这让人感到不安，同时又让这个故事、这个男孩能向你或他人射出箭矢、让人相爱的概念变得格外真切。

Suddenly, here you have a real boy who's posing as Cupid, and it's unsettling, at the same time, it brings home the story, the concept of this boy who's able to, you know, shooting an arrow into you or somebody else, make people fall in love with each other.

他拥有巨大的力量。

He's got a lot of power.

所以丘比特的力量就是让人坠入爱河。

So Cupid's power is that he makes you fall in love.

于是他在这里，背上长着一对假翅膀，看起来有点不自然，因为它们被画得太过逼真。

So here he is with his clipped on wings on the back, a bit unlikely looking because they're so realistically painted.

而这幅画的真正含义，从它的标题《爱能征服一切》来看，是说爱是一种如此强大的力量，能够触及一切。

And the meaning of the picture really, judging by its title, Love Conquers All, is that love is such a powerful force that it can get to everything.

而画作底部的物品象征着所有可能被爱征服的事物，

And representing all the things that could be conquered by love is the stuff at the bottom of the picture,

这确实是一个绝妙的概念，因为这幅画基本上分为两个部分。

isn't And it's a brilliant concept, because it's basically a picture in two halves.

你看到一个美丽的少年正望着你、对你笑，但他刚刚做了什么？他走进这个房间，把桌面上的一切都扫到了地上。

You've this beautiful young boy looking out at you and laughing at you, but what he's just done, he's just walked into this room and literally just swept everything off a tabletop onto the ground.

我们引以为傲的一切——音乐、建筑、艺术、战争、文学、权力——全都被彻底推到了一边。

All the things that we are so proud of, the great human achievements of music, of architecture, of the arts of war, of literature, of power, all of that completely pushed aside.

这些都通过静物画来表现，比如你看到了一些乐器。

These are all indicated by the still lifes, so you've got a couple of musical instruments.

没错，你看到一把琉特琴、一把小提琴，甚至下面还有一张乐谱，代表音乐；有直尺和圆规，代表建筑；有一本写得优美的书、一支羽毛笔和一顶月桂冠，象征着诗人桂冠的加冕；还有一件精美的盔甲，胸甲和腿甲闪闪发光，光影效果令人惊叹。

That's right, you've got a lute, you've got a violin, you've even got a musical score underneath it for music, you've got a set square and a compass for architecture, you've got a book with beautiful writing and a quill and a laurel, the sort of crowning of the poet laureate at the site, you've got this fantastic piece of armour, a breastplate with the tassets and shine the light reflecting off it, it's just sensational.

而在右上角还有一个非常细致、容易被忽略的细节：王冠和权杖，上面覆盖着华丽的金色漆面，象征着世俗权力。

And then very detailed, you almost miss, is the crown and the sept in the top right corner, which you've got this amazing sort of gold shellac on it, and that's temporal power.

因此，我们在这里看到的是一幅画，画中那些极其重要的力量——音乐、建筑、军队、战争，以及通过王冠体现的王权——所有这些看似重要而强大的力量，都被爱所挑战。

So what we're looking at here is a picture in which these fantastically important forces, music, building architecture, the army, war, you know, the ability to fight, and royal power as well through the crown, all these seemingly important and potent forces, they're all being challenged by love.

所以这里的寓意是，爱可以摧毁一切，没错。

So the message here is love can destroy anything, isn't Yeah.

无论你多么重要，无论你是谁，无论你做的事情多么出色，只要丘比特走进你的房间，向你射出他的箭，

And it's However however important you are, whoever you are, however good the things you're doing, if Cupid pops up in your room and fires his arrows at you

你就完了。

You're lost.

你完蛋了。

You're done for.

没错。

Yeah.

你就完了。

You're lost.

你基本上就放弃了。

You sort of give up.

而最妙的是，他以一种非常微妙的方式做到了这一点，你只有在仔细审视这幅画的最后阶段才会注意到，他甚至还坐在一个天球仪上，你能看到上面的星辰。

And what's wonderful, and he does it in a very subtle way, and you only notice it towards the end of your sort of moment of checking this picture out, is the fact that he's also sitting on an orb, on a universal globe, where you can see the stars.

所以他具有普遍性。

So he's universal.

他不只是那个假扮丘比特的街头顽童。

He's not just the street urchin who's posing as Cupid.

他还代表了某种普遍意义上的爱，这非常有力。

He's also representative of love on a sort of universal scale, which is very powerful.

他本可以解决我们当下正在经历的所有政治冲突和战争。

He could resolve all the political and wars that we are undergoing at this very moment.

他拥有这种力量。

He's got that power.

他只需要把箭收起来，再也不向任何人射出即可。

All he'd have to do is put his arrows away and never fire them at anybody.

但我喜欢这个全知全能的人物——康库尔·奥尔——竟然是个捣蛋鬼。

But I love the fact that this all powerful figure, I love Conkur Ol, is such a scamp.

因为他的表情和顽皮的姿态暗示了丘比特身上的一种破坏性。

Because what it implies, that look on his face, that cheekiness of his pose, what it implies is a kind of destructiveness to Cupid.

他可以去任何他想去的地方，做任何他想做的事，方式都很淘气，不是吗？

He can go anywhere he wants and do anything he wants, in ways that they're really impish, aren't they?

是的。

Yeah.

但其中有一种微妙的潜台词，我还没完全理解，那就是弓弦实际上并没有拉开，所以他并没有准备好射出箭矢。

But there is a subtle undertone, and I still have yet to understand it, but the fact that the bow is actually not strung, so he's not actually ready to shoot any arrows.

而且在这幅静物画中，有一样通常在‘胜利的丘比特’主题中会出现的东西缺失了，那就是没有画笔或调色板。

And there's one thing that's missing in the still life, which normally gets represented in these these themes of of Cupiad Victorious, and that's the fact that there is no palette or brush.

画家并没有出现在这些被弃置的艺术工具中。

The painter is not present in the arts that's been thrown aside.

这是因为卡拉瓦乔画了它，而某种程度上，丘比特自己也在作画。

That's because Caravaggio has painted it, and in a way, Cupid is also painting.

这幅画和丘比特一样胜利，如果你明白我的意思的话。

The painting is as just as victorious as Cupid is, if you see what I mean.

所以我认为这里有一种近乎傲慢的隐喻。

And so I think there's a conceit going there, which is verges on the arrogance.

哦，我明白了。

Oh, I see.

所以你的意思是，爱可以战胜音乐，可以战胜诗歌，可以战胜建筑，但却无法战胜绘画，因为这本身就是一幅画。

So so what you're saying is that love can conquer music, it can conquer poetry, it can conquer architecture, but it can't conquer painting because this is a painting.

我想，嗯

Thought, well

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这很微妙，但正是卡拉瓦乔的傲慢与天才或许在此显现出来。

I thought it's a subtle one, but it's the arrogance and genius of Caravaggio which perhaps comes through in

就是这样。

that way.

那么，我们来谈谈卡拉瓦乔的天才吧，因为当你走进这个房间时，最让你震惊的是那种真实感，对吧？

Well, let's talk about the genius of Caravaggio, because when you walk into this room, what absolutely astonishes you is the sense of reality, isn't it?

我的意思是，这个略带诡异的青少年身体，完全赤裸，这种裸露方式在今天看来依然相当震撼，不是吗？

I mean, this body, slightly spooky, adolescent body, totally nude in a way that is, I mean, today quite shocking, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

毫无疑问，这位病人确实引起了震惊。

There's no doubt that the patient did shock.

我认为有些人将其视为尘世之爱，即一种更为情欲的爱，而非纯粹之爱的寓言。

I think it was seen as earthly love, so rather lustful love, by some rather than being an allegory of pure love.

传言说，为他摆姿势的男孩名叫弗朗切斯科，或昵称为切科，他实际上是卡拉瓦乔的一名学徒和工作室助手。

The gossip was of the boy posing for him was actually somebody called Francesco or the diminutive is Cecco that was actually an apprentice, a studio assistant to Caravaggio.

他在卡拉瓦乔的其他画作中也再次出现，因此这个模特确实存在；至于他是否就是切科，工作室里的流言称，这个男孩曾与卡拉瓦乔有染。

He does reappear in other pictures by Caravaggio so the model is definitely did exist, whether it is Cecco, then there are, you know, the studio gossip is that it is the boy who laid with Caravaggio.

当然，这又是一个巨大的问号，但并非不可能。

Now, again, this is a big big question mark there, but it's possible.

关于卡拉瓦乔的性取向，这是一个大讨论话题。

It's the big discussion about caravaggio sexuality.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，我们永远无法真正知道。

Of course, we'll never really know.

我认为我们能肯定地说的最多就是，这很复杂。

I I think the most we can say with any certainty is that it was complex.

非常复杂。

Very complex.

他喜欢妓女。

He enjoyed courtesans.

他有时甚至可能自己就是皮条客。

He sometimes might have even been a pimp himself.

我认为他 definitely 参与了各种活动。

I think he was definitely involved in all kinds of activities.

是的。

Yeah.

你总是觉得，他提供的是内部视角，不是吗？

You always do feel with him is that it is an insider's view, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

这并不是某人在看别人，然后觉得可能就是这样。

This is not looking someone looking at somebody else who who thinks it might be like that.

是的。

Yeah.

他的超能力是现实主义，对吧？

His superpower is realism, isn't it?

这才是真正让他与众不同之处。

That's what really makes him different.

那种感觉，这些事情仿佛就发生在你的眼前。

That sense that these things absolutely appear to be happening in front of your nose.

确实是，但这是一种经过控制和剪辑的现实主义。

It is, but it's controlled edited realism.

所以这不是摄影现实主义或摄像机现实主义。

So it's not photographic realism or camera realism.

这是一种经过精美剪辑的现实主义。

It's realism that is beautifully edited.

因此，这幅画传达出的一种感觉是，一切都在变化之中。

So something that comes across in this picture is that everything's in flux.

你无法确切地把握住所有细节。

You're not quite sure you can't pin everything down.

例如，这些乐器并不是真正可以演奏或拿起的乐器，它们中有些弦是缺失的。

So for example, the instruments, they're not instruments you could actually play and pick up, they're they're some of the missing strings.

如果你看那把琉特琴，中间的花饰或玫瑰饰并没有被雕刻出来，所以实际上无法发出任何声音。

If you look at the lute, the floret or the rosette in the middle hasn't been carved out, so you can't actually emit any sound.

然而，这幅画的某些方面却并不那么具体可感。

And yet, there's some aspects of this picture that are not quite tangible.

它们并不像你预期的那样真实。

They're not real in the way you would expect them to be real.

所以这种现实主义是一种巧妙剪辑、增强过的现实主义。

So the realism is is a sort of, you know, cleverly edited, enhanced realism.

所以他

So he

以其他艺术家运用优雅或某种形式创新的方式运用现实主义

uses realism in the way that other artists might use grace or some kind of formal invention

我觉得是的。

I think so.

作为一种武器。

As a weapon.

没错。

Yeah.

它在他的现实主义中带出了一种诗意。

And it brings out a sort of poetry in his in his realism.

所以这并不是一种……是的现实主义。

So it's not a realism that yes.

在某个层面上，这令人震惊，但与此同时，它又极其富有诗意、优雅而精致。

It is shocking on the one level, but at the same time, it's extremely poetic and and elegant and sophisticated.

嗯，这个展览似乎进行得不错。

Well, the show seems to be doing well.

我们早些时候进来时，人很多。

It was busy when we came in earlier.

我们正在听人们

We're getting What are people

人们是怎么说它的？

saying what are people saying about it?

听我说，我最享受的莫过于看到，首先，任何时候都有大约二十个人围在它前面。

Listen, the the thing I most enjoy about this is seeing, first of all, a crowd about 20 people in front of it at every at any given time.

互不相识的人们，由于光线略暗，他们看起来就像卡拉瓦乔画中的人物，彼此交谈、提问，试图理解这幅画。

People who don't know each other, it's slightly darker so they look like Caravaggio's themselves and literally talking to each other, asking questions and trying to understand the picture.

他们就是无法完全理解它。

They they can't quite get it.

有些人对这幅画有本能的反感，根本无法忍受。

Some people have visceral dislike of the picture, just can't bear it.

另一些人则完全被它吸引，试图理解它、剖析它，甚至几乎是在分析它；幸运的是，我们添加了一些说明展板，但它们都位于侧面，并不构成主展览的一部分。

Others are completely intrigued by it, and they they try and understand, they dissect it, they almost analyse it, and luckily we've introduced some, you know, didactic panels to but they're all on the side, so they're not part of the main show.

如果你只是想多了解一点，那就去查看一下。

You just if you wanna know a bit more, then you go and check

它，回来后再

it out, come back with

获取信息，自己开始解读这幅画。

the information, and start deciphering the picture for yourself.

但这幅画需要时间去体会，而美妙之处在于，这个展览是免费的，你可以随时回来，直到4月12日，这对我来说是一种纯粹的奢侈——可以像在罗马的教堂里那样，反复观赏卡拉瓦乔的作品。

But it is one of these pictures that takes time, and the beauty is that this show is free, so you can come back whenever you want until the April 12, and that's that's sheer luxury for me, to come and see a Caravaggio like the chapels you see in Rome.

你走进来，欣赏卡拉瓦乔的作品，然后走出去，喝杯卡布奇诺，过会儿再回来。

You just walk in, enjoy the Caravaggio, walk out, have a cappuccino, and then come back again later.

但对我来说，这场展览最纯粹的美就在于此。

But it's that's for me is the sheer beauty of this show.

太棒了。

Marvelous.

我得指出你一件事。

I've got to pick you up on one thing.

我看了你们明年计划的内容。

I was looking through what you've got planned for next year.

休息一下。

Saviour a break.

你们要举办丘吉尔的绘画展吗？

Are you putting on a show of Winston Churchill's painting?

告诉我这不是真的。

Tell me it isn't true.

是真的，很遗憾。

It is true, I'm afraid.

嗯，我不害怕。

Well, I'm not afraid.

我非常自豪地宣布，《羊毛族收藏》将首次在全国范围内展出温斯顿·丘吉尔的作品。

I'm very proud to say that The Woolies Collection will be showing Winston Churchill for the first time on a national stage.

是时候让他作为一位杰出画家获得应有的认可了。

It is time that he got his his moment as a great painter in his own right.

所以我们即将面对这样一个事实：温斯顿·丘吉尔是一位伟大的艺术家。

So we're going to be facing up to the fact that Winston Churchill was a great artist.

你会惊讶于他本可以靠绘画谋生。

You'll be surprised by that he could have made a living as an artist.

太好了，他可以自己决定。

Great, he can decide.

但毫无疑问，他曾经以‘大卫·温特’的化名在皇家艺术学院展出作品。

But definitely, he, you know, he exhibited under the pseudonym of David Winter, the RA.

所以他成功进入了夏季展览。

So he managed to get into the summer exhibitions Yeah.

完全是凭借他自己的实力。

Purely on his own merit.

是的。

Yeah.

我已经进入了夏季展览。

I've I've got into the summer exhibition.

真的吗？

Have you?

我非常期待。

It's have a look forward to it.

这将是有意思的一年。

It's gonna be an interesting year.

那我们可以讨论一下。

We can have a discussion then.

让我们期待这场辩论吧。

Let's and I look forward to to the debate.

那里

There

你去吧，本迪。

you go, Bendy.

我是一幅了不起的画。

I'm an amazing picture.

你不觉得吗？

Don't you think?

是的。

Yeah.

了不起的画。

Amazing picture.

在我谈这幅画之前，我想说，我真是Xavier Bray的仰慕者。

And before I get into the picture, I just want to say actually what an admirer I am of Xavier Bray.

你说他敢于举办那个画展，非常勇敢。

And you say he's very brave in putting that one picture show on.

而且一定要让听众知道，在Xavier成为华莱士收藏馆馆长之前，他们一直有个规定，我认为自收藏馆成立以来就存在：任何画作都不能离开馆藏，即使是借出也不行，而且也不能加入任何新作品。

And it's worth just just to make sure listeners know that before Xavier became director of the Wallace Collection, do you remember they had that rule which had been in place for, I think, ever since it came into existence, that no painting could ever leave the collection, not even on loan, and nothing could come in.

他成功改变了这一规定，并克服了诸多反对意见来实现这一改变。

And he managed to change that, and it he overcame a lot of opposition to change that.

这意味着华莱士收藏馆偶尔会将一幅画借给国际展览，而他也偶尔能将像这幅画这样的杰作‘ smuggle’（偷偷带入）华莱士收藏馆。

And it means that every now and then, the Wallace Collection does lend a painting to an exhibition somewhere internationally, and that, occasionally, he can smuggle a great masterpiece like this picture into the Wallace Collection.

所以我觉得这是双赢。

So I think it's a win win.

确实如此。

It is absolutely.

不。

No.

他是个了不起的人。

He's a fabulous guy.

非常有趣、非常有趣，而且富有创意。

Really interesting, really fun, and inventive.

他是一位富有创造力的博物馆馆长。

He's an inventive museum director.

天知道这样的人才凤毛麟角。

Heaven knows there aren't enough of those about.

我的意思是，他总能策划出意想不到的展览。

I mean, he just creates unlikely shows.

我的意思是，他即将举办的温斯顿·丘吉尔展览，我听说的时候简直笑死了。

I mean, this Winston Churchill show that he's got coming up, I mean, it just made me laugh when I heard about it.

这展览肯定会很荒诞，对吧，本迪？

It's it's going to be ridiculous, isn't it, Bendy?

你之前提到民族主义正悄悄渗透进这些展览，而我们伦敦这座小城现在如此迫切地想吸引观众，有时不得不依赖这类展览。

Well, you were saying earlier on about nationalism creeping into these things, and we're now so desperate in little old London to get people through the door that sometimes we have to resort to these kind of exhibitions.

但我觉得丘吉尔其实是个挺有意思的画家。

But, you know, I think Churchill was quite an interesting painter.

正如你所说，他算不上伟大的画家，但具有重要的历史意义。

As you say, not a great painter, but historically significant one.

所以，我其实很期待看到这个展览。

So, actually, I look forward to seeing that show.

好吧，那我在那儿见你。

Well, I'll see you there.

我会去的。

I'm gonna go along.

至少我觉得我会从中大笑一场。

At the very least, I'm gonna get a good laugh out of it, I think.

但让我们再聊聊民族主义和我们所喜爱的艺术家，尤其是在英国。

But talking still yet more about nationalism and artists that we love, particularly here in Britain.

让我们进入这场真正的较量。

Let's get on to the the real contest here.

这是本集播客的重头戏，因为我们即将去参观一场在伦敦开幕的、极具影响力的展览。

This is the top of the bill of this particular podcast because we are going to go and visit an exhibition that's opened in London that's been an extraordinarily impactful show.

它聚焦于两位最伟大的英国艺术家，你和我将对它做出一些重大判断，因为我们已经到了Waldy对阵Bendy的时刻。

It's about two of the greatest British artists, and you and I are going to come to some big decisions about it it because we've reached that moment where Waldy goes up against Bendy.

Waldy对Bendy。

Waldy versus Bendy.

好了，本迪。

There you go, Bendy.

这可是你和我之间的对决。

It's it's you and me.

我们黎明时分拳脚相见。

Fist cuffs at dawn.

我们将前往泰特不列颠美术馆参观特纳与康斯特布尔的展览，并试图对它得出一些重大结论。

We're going to visit the Turner Constable exhibition at Tate Britain, and we're gonna try and come to some big conclusions about it.

首先，你已经看过这个展览了。

Now, first of all, you've seen the show.

你喜欢吗？

Did you like it?

我看过这个展览了。

I have seen the show.

我非常喜欢它。

I absolutely loved it.

如今，我们很少能遇到这样的展览，纯粹地展示我们最伟大艺术家的杰作。

We so infrequently nowadays, actually, get exhibitions which are just a great display of great works by our greatest artists.

至于谁更胜一筹，或者对画作的解读是否正确，我们以后或许可以再争论。

And we can disagree later on perhaps about who came out on top or whether the interpretation of the pictures was right.

但单就视觉盛宴而言，我简直爱死了。

But just as a feast for the eye, I absolutely loved it.

事实上，我去了好几次。

In fact, I went through a few times.

它实在是太精彩了。

It was it was that brilliant.

是的。

Yeah.

策展得非常好，对吧？

It's it's very well curated, isn't it?

展览被分成了几个很有帮助且有趣的部分。

It's got it's split up into these helpful and interesting sections.

我的意思是，我得承认，我通常不太喜欢策展人所做的事，因为他们常常过于强烈地将自己的个性注入展览中。

I mean, I must admit, I don't usually like what curators do because they quite often try and interject their own personalities too forcefully into the display.

但这里并没有发生这种情况。

But that hasn't happened here.

他们只是以一种有帮助且富有创意的方式组织了这些展品，不是吗？

They've just organized the the material, haven't they, in a helpful and inventive way.

是的。

Yeah.

展览的节奏非常好。

It had the display had a good rhythm to it.

事实上，把这么多杰作填满楼下所有的展厅，这本身就是一项了不起的策展成就。

And, actually, to fill all those rooms downstairs with so many masterpieces was quite a a curatorial achievement.

同时，也要向登记人员、所有艺术品搬运工以及所有参与运来这么多重要画作的人致谢。

And, also, a shout out to the registrars and all the art handlers and everyone else who's involved in bringing in so many important pictures.

那么我们现在来逐一看看吧。

So let's go through it now.

最重要的是，让我们试着看看这个展览向我们揭示了每位艺术家的什么。

Above all, let's let's let's try and see what what the exhibition is telling us about each of these artists.

所以他们非常不同，对吧？

So they're very different, aren't they?

特纳和康斯太勃尔在背景、出身以及天赋方面都截然不同。

Turner and Constable in terms of their backgrounds, what they came from, and and and indeed in the sort of talent they had.

因此，展览以两幅肖像画开始，一幅是康斯太勃尔的，一幅是特纳的。

So the exhibition starts off with two portraits, one of Constable, one of Turner.

我认为，它们立刻呈现出两种截然不同的艺术家类型。

And they are immediately, I think, tangibly different types of artists.

甚至他们的肖像画也显得非常不同。

And even their portraits seem to be to be very different.

康斯太勃尔就像是一个富有的、近乎萨福克郡领主的人物，不是吗？

Constable's the rich, almost mini Suffolk lord, isn't he?

他随意地坐着，看起来有点像《波尔达克》里的角色。

Sitting there rather casually looking a bit like Poldark.

而透纳则更强烈、更直接，目光直视着你。

Whereas Turner's more intense, full on, face staring at you.

他们有着不同的个性和背景。

They've got different personalities, different backgrounds.

从最根本的层面来看，他们是完全不同类型的艺术家，不是吗？

They're a different kind of artist just at their very basic level, aren't they?

是的，某种程度上是这样。

They are, sort of.

不过我得说，也许这场展览和艺术史上的其他人一样，也有同样的问题。

Although I have to say, perhaps the exhibition's as guilty of this as everyone else in art history.

我认为他们之间的背景差异被过分夸大了。

I think the different background stuff between them is massively overdone.

我的意思是，康斯太勃尔，你自己刚才也说了，一直被塑造成像是公爵儿子那样的人，因为他父亲恰好在萨福克郡拥有一个磨坊和几片田地。

I mean, constable, and you've just done it yourself, has always presented as this kind of almost like the son of a duke because his dad happened to own a mill in a few fields in Suffolk.

所以

So

他们有很多钱，过着乡村乡绅般的生活。

And they had loads of money, and and they lived like country squires.

并不是这样的。

They it wasn't.

他们没那么富有，你知道的，他一生中也有自己的挣扎。

They weren't that rich, you know, and he had his own struggles in life.

嗯，他们没你本尼那么有钱，但我的意思是，他们相当富裕，甚至都不用比较。

Well, they weren't as rich as you, Benny, but, I mean, they were they were comparative well, not even comparative.

他们非常富裕。

They were very well off.

他有着奢华的艺术起点，不是吗？

He had a a luxurious art beginning, didn't he?

我认为，对于那个展览的一号展厅来说，这对我来说才是更有趣的地方。

Well, I think that is actually, for me, the more interesting thing about Room Number 1 in that exhibition.

你实际上看到的是他们艺术起点的差异，不是在透纳和康斯太勃尔的肖像中，而是在他们为皇家学院学位所创作的两幅并列画作中。

You see the difference in their art beginnings, actually, not in the portraits of Turner and Constable, but in the two side by side pictures which they painted for their Royal Academy diploma.

作品。

Pieces.

透纳为皇家学院创作的这幅画是他早期的作品，因为他年仅26岁就直接进入了皇家学院，至今仍是该院历史上最年轻的入选者。

Turner's picture for the Royal Academy is one of his early works because he was straight into the Royal Academy at the tender age of 26, and he remains the youngest one they ever accepted.

可怜的康斯特布尔，他的学院文凭作品则要晚得多，是《水闸》的一个版本。

Poor old constable, his diploma picture is a much later work, a version of the lock.

这是因为直到56岁，他才成为学院的成员。

And this is because he didn't get to become a member of the academy till he was 56.

所以，尽管我们之前提到他们成长背景截然不同、极为优越，但他们在艺术领域的认可之路、以及正式被皇家学院接纳的过程却大相径庭。

So they had actually, despite we have told there's such different and privileged upbringings, quite a different route into art acceptance and being formally accepted by the Royal Academy.

我认为，这一点在展览中展现得尤为精彩。

I think that's something which really unfolded quite beautifully in the exhibition.

我不觉得这有什么意义，我来告诉你为什么。

I don't think that means anything, and I'll tell you why.

因为透纳被更快接纳、而康斯特布尔花了那么久才被接纳，原因很简单：透纳是个天才。

Because the reason why Turner was accepted much more quickly and that it took Constable so long is quite simply the fact that Turner was a prodigy.

我的意思是，如果你看看这里展出的作品，他十三四岁的时候就画过一幅自画像，那是一幅水彩画。

I mean, if you look at the things they've got on show here I mean, there's a watercolor that he did a self portrait when he was, what, 13 or 14 or something.

这太惊人了。

It's extraordinary.

这些早期的风景水彩画，描绘了河流和山脉的美丽景色，一个少年竟能画出这样的作品，他的天赋是那种一眼就能看出来、令人羡慕的天赋。

And these first early watercolors of landscapes, beautiful views of of rivers and mountains, these a teenager is doing these, and his talent was of that kind that is immediately obvious and immediately enviable.

现在，他们把这和早期的康斯特布尔作比较，坦白说，康斯特布尔花了漫长得多的时间才达到像透纳那样的水平。

Now they compare that with early constable, who frankly takes much, much longer to get anything like as good as Turner.

所以，如果你试图非常英国式地、非常公平地看待这件事，你可能会说，他们花了很长时间才被皇家学院接纳。

So, you know, if you're trying to be very British about this and very fair, you'll say things like that, you know, it took them a long time to be accepted by the Royal Academy.

但在我看来，他们天赋差异的证据就明明白白地挂在墙上。

But the evidence to my eyes of the difference in their talents is is just there on the walls.

你知道，少年时期的透纳就已经才华横溢了。

You know, as a teenager, Turner was already prodigiously talented.

我的意思是，他很早就成为了一位伟大的画家，而康斯特布尔则花了漫长得多的时间。

I mean, a great painter very early on, and Constable took far, far, far longer.

所以这实际上取决于你对艺术的看法。

So it sort of depends on what your view of art is, really.

我的意思是，你更看重真正的才华和非凡的天赋吗？

I mean, do you rate real talent and and prodigious talent?

你更喜欢这种逐渐学会的过程，还是不这么认为？

Do you prefer it to learning how to get there eventually, or don't you?

嗯。

Yeah.

算你厉害。

Nice try.

我看着那些早期的素描、埃爾特的画作和水彩，觉得他同样天赋异禀。

I look at those composables, those early sketches and those Eilert drawings and water guys, and I think he's he's just as prodigious.

好吧。

Okay.

我可能得承认，在天生才华和神童方面，特纳可能略胜一筹。

I would probably have to concede that in the natural talent stakes, in the natural prodigy stakes, Turner might come out on top.

但说真的，我认为理解透纳为何如此早被皇家学院接纳的关键在于，他成功地掩盖了自己的天赋异禀。

But seriously, I think the the important point to understand as to why Turner was accepted by the Royal Academy so early is because he was successful in, if you like, masking his prodigiousness.

所以，如果你看看你所说的那些证明透纳年轻时才华横溢的作品——那些更私密的画作，比如他的速写本和习作——

So if you look at the the the pictures that you're saying are evidence of Turner's brilliance when he's younger are the more sort of private ones, his his sketchbooks and studies.

而他为了获得皇家学院认可所创作的作品，则是类似克劳德风格的仿作，在长达数十年的时间里，他不得不压抑自己的自然天赋。

The pictures that he paints to get accepted by the Royal Academy are the kind of Claudian pastiches where he has to, for some decades, actually suppress his natural talents.

这一点正是罗斯金所注意到的。

And this is something that Ruskin picks up on.

这不只是我的观察。

It's not just my observation.

罗斯金说，透纳花了三十年才摆脱皇家学院的阴影。

Ruskin says it takes Turner thirty years to escape from the shadow of the royal academy.

因此，这反映了我所说的委托阶层——18世纪末至19世纪初伦敦的贵族与精英阶层——的偏好：他们并不想要英国风景画，那种你我所钟爱、参观泰特展览的人也会喜欢的类型，而是想要看起来像其他地方的风景，像是托斯卡纳或罗马周围温暖起伏的丘陵。

So this is this desire amongst what I call the the commissioning classes, the aristocracy, the elite in London in the later eighteenth century and early nineteenth century, not for pictures of the British landscape, the sort of thing that you and I love and the people going around the Tate show will love, but actually for for landscapes that looked like another place, that looked like sort of the rolling warm hills around Tuscany in Rome.

而透纳非常擅长这种风格，我想你在泰特展览中看到的透纳早期作品，尤其是早期展厅里的画作，正是如此。

And Turner was really good at doing that, and that's what I think you see in the in the Tate show, the early rooms of Turner's early work.

要等到晚期的透纳，才能看到那种 brilliance，比如我们喜欢的《战斗的特米雷尔号》《雨、蒸汽和速度》这样的作品，这需要很长时间。

It takes you a long time to get to late Turner, the brilliance that, you know, the kind of pictures we like, like the fighting Temeraire, rain, steam, and speed.

顺便说一句，我在展览中确实看到了，但我觉得这很遗憾，不过我先插一句。

Which I did in the show, by the way, which is a shame, I thought, actually, but, you know, interjecting quickly.

不过还有很多其他东西。

A lot a lot of other things are, though.

是的。

Yeah.

接着说。

Go on.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

你会看到很多画作，透纳在其中感觉很不自在，仿佛在掩饰他真正想画的东西。

You see a lot of paintings where Turner feels uncomfortably as if he's masking what he really wants to paint.

而康斯特布尔，当然，我认为他如此微妙却又充满力量的原因在于，他决定不再参与这个游戏。

And Constable, of course, the reason I think constable is is so sort of subtle and yet powerful at the same time, is he just decides he's not gonna play that game.

他只想留在萨福克，学习描绘那些深深启发他的风景。

He wants to stay in Suffolk, learn to draw and paint the landscape that inspired him so much.

早在1802年，他就给朋友约翰·邓索恩写了一封极佳的信，阐述了自己的艺术宣言，他说：我受够了总是不得不画别处的景色，模仿其他艺术家的风格。

And he says early on, in eighteen o two, there's a fantastic letter to his friend John Dunthorn, where he lays out his kind of artistic manifesto, and he says, I'm fed up with always having to paint pictures of somewhere else, and to mimic the style of other artists.

比如，收藏家们想要的画作有点像克劳德·洛兰的风格，如此这般。

The collectors, for example, wanted paintings a little like Claude Lorrain's, and so on and so forth.

康斯特布尔说：我根本不想理会这些。

Constable says, I'm just not going to bother with that.

去他的皇家艺术研究院，我要发展自己的风格。

To hell with the RA, I'm gonna develop my own style.

因此，我认为，实际上康斯特布尔是这两位艺术家中第一个真正创造出全新东西、为英国艺术史带来彻底原创性的人——那就是以前所未有的方式描绘英国风景。

And that's why I think, actually, constable is the first one of the two artists to actually really invent and bring something totally original to the story of British art, which is actually just painting the British landscape in a way that it hadn't been done before.

是的。

Yeah.

但他这样做的原因，也正是天才之处再次体现：他别无选择。

But the reason he did that, and this is where the prodigy comes in again, is that he couldn't do it any other way.

我认为早期的康斯特布尔根本画不出像克劳德那样的画。

I don't think early constable could have painted like Claude.

他缺乏那种想象力的广度，无法去审视当时所有的艺术创作，并以个人方式做出回应。

He hasn't got that kind of imaginative breadth of being able to look at all the art that's being made at the times and really be able to respond to it in a in a personal way.

我同意你的观点，透纳试图画出类似克劳德风格的作品时，确实有些生硬。

Now I agree with you that some of Turner's attempts to paint Claude like pictures are a bit clunky.

而且，他不得不迎合市场，这仅仅是因为他出身工人阶级，与出身优渥、由富有的父亲资助、可以慢慢作画、随心所欲创作的康斯特布尔截然不同。

And, the fact that he had to work the market, you know, that's just because he was a working class lad, completely different from the privileged constable who was being paid for by his rich dad to paint slowly and paint whatever he wanted.

透纳必须活在市场之中。

Turner had to live in the marketplace.

因此，他曾为几位建筑绘图员工作，为他们绘制图纸。

So he worked for various architectural draftsmen doing drawings for them.

他必须创作能卖得出去的艺术作品。

He had to make art that would sell.

他得卷起袖子努力工作，有时这让他做出了一些并不那么出色的作品。

He had to, you know, roll up his sleeves and work at it, and sometimes that led him to do things that aren't as impressive.

我同意你的看法。

I'll agree with you there.

但另一方面，就在同一时期，如果你看看他用水彩画所做的事情——他基本上是自学成才的——这些水彩画简直令人惊叹，这次展览中的水彩画就是这样。

But on the other hand, at exactly the same time, if you look what he's doing with his watercolors, which he basically mastered by himself, you know, they're absolutely stunning, the watercolors in this show.

我的意思是，你从没见过水彩被如此富有氛围地运用，比如表现海景的壮丽或日落的美丽。

I mean, you've never seen watercolor being used like that So atmospherically, in terms of evoking, for example, the the the drama of a seascape or the beauty of a sunset.

我的天，艺术中还有什么比画日落更难的吗？

I mean, god knows, there's nothing harder in art to paint than a sunset, is there?

我的意思是，我们都爱日落。

I mean, we all love them.

每当我们看到美丽的日落，都会激动不已。

We all go crazy when we see a beautiful sunset.

每次我们去度假，都会坐在那里望着天空，感叹：哦，这日落真美啊？

Every time we go on holiday, we sit there looking at the sky going, oh, isn't that a gorgeous sunset?

但许多艺术家都尝试过，却未能捕捉到日落那令人惊叹的氛围。

But so many artists have tackled it and failed, frankly, to capture that amazing atmosphere of the sunset.

透纳在十几岁时，他的水彩画就已经开始展现这种能力了。

Turner in his watercolors, you know, just out of his teens was already doing it.

这些早期的水彩画真是令人惊叹。

I mean, amazingly impressive, those early watercolors.

另一点是，康斯特布尔待在萨福克，画的是斯托尔河，他画的范围基本上就在离家五英里之内。

And the other thing is, okay, constable sits in Suffolk and he paints the River Stour and he paints the, you know, within five miles of his house is is pretty much his range.

但透纳却四处游历。

But Turner, he goes all over the place.

只要一有机会，他就去瑞士，画下那里令人震撼的山景。

As soon as he's got a chance to, he goes to Switzerland and he paints these extraordinarily dramatic views of the mountains there.

有一幅描绘戈特哈德山口的水彩画，是竖构图的。

I mean, there's a watercolor of Mount Gotthard Pass and it's a vertical.

透纳还特别擅长绘制竖幅风景画。

The other thing that Turner was really good at was vertical landscapes.

对吧？

Right?

所以你会有一种高高在上、俯瞰万物的眩晕感。

So you get that sort of dizzying sense of being high up above things.

康斯太勃尔的画总是平的。

The Constable's always flat.

总是水平的，总是向两侧延展。

It's always horizontal, always stretching sideways.

但透纳能表现另一种类型的风景戏剧性。

But Turner could do another kind of landscape drama.

他就是这么有创造力。

That's how inventive he was.

那幅圣哥达山口的画，真的就像站在悬崖边缘，凝视着无底深渊。

And that view of the Mount Gotthard Pass is honestly, you know, like standing on the edge of a precipice and staring down into a bottomless pit.

这是一幅多么美妙的图像。

It's such a wonderful image.

所以他去了瑞士，到处游历。

So he goes to Switzerland, and he goes all over the place.

而且他创作了大量充满冒险精神的神话场景，基于希腊和罗马神话的作品。

And his breadth or the fact that he's also doing these rather adventurous mythological scenes and and scenes based on Greek mythology, Roman mythology.

他的创作范围要精彩得多。

And his range is so much more exciting.

你看到的是一位在探索更多题材的艺术家，而可怜的老康斯太勃尔却待在萨福克，一遍又一遍地画着同一条河的风景。

You've got an artist that's tackling more subjects, whereas poor old Constor sitting there in Suffolk painting the same old stretch of the river over and over and over again.

如果你是个受虐狂，喜欢那种艺术不向前发展、只一步步缓慢前进最终抵达终点的理念，那么我明白康斯太勃尔的创作过程确实会吸引你。

If you're a kind of masochist and you like this idea of art that doesn't go anywhere and that just takes a tiny step at a time and eventually gets there, then I can see there's something in Constable's process that would appeal to you.

但如果你相信艺术应该拥有宽广的胸怀，追求更高、更大、更伟大的目标，那么即使透纳早期的作品——未必是他最出色的作品——在我看来，也依然奏响了一种成功的旋律。

But if you believe that Art should have a big open heart and to just aim higher and bigger and be greater, then even the early work of Turner, which isn't necessarily a wit's best work, even that to me rings a kind of successful bell.

这就是我的感受，本迪。

That's how I feel about it, Bendy.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

你啊，你知道的，你简直就是我们这个注意力缺陷多动症时代最完美的人选。

You're, you know, you're the perfect person for our ADHD age world.

你喜欢在浏览艺术史Instagram时，被各种各样的艺术作品迅速冲击眼球。

You like, you know, to be hit between the eyes by different kinds of art very rapidly as you scroll through your art historical Instagram.

而特纳确实能给你这种体验。

And, you know, Turner certainly does that for you.

我当然承认，特纳的题材范围更广、更宏大。

And I would definitely concede that Turner has probably the broader and greater range.

但我只是觉得，康斯太勃尔坚持自己的道路，自豪地做一个有时有点排外的英国小人物，认为‘这就是我的地盘，我要以一种完全不同的方式成为世界上画它最好的人’，这种精神值得称颂。

But I just think there's something to celebrate in Constable sticking with it, proudly being a rather sometimes xenophobic little Englishman, and thinking, well, this is my patch, and I'm going to become the world's best person at painting it in a totally different way.

我觉得你只需要给康斯太勃尔一些时间，他终会交出令人惊艳的作品。

I think you just have to give a constable time, and he delivers something.

我要在世界上打败你。

And I'm going to trump you, world.

听众们，我必须向你们道歉。

I must apologize, listeners.

我真不想在这场伟大艺术家的对比中太过好斗，我们争得这么激烈。

I really didn't want to get too pugilistic in this in this comparison to the great artist as we slug it out.

但我想，我的王牌将是卢西安·弗洛伊德的一句话，我相信这会是致命一击。

But I just want to my trump card, I think, is gonna be a quote from Lucian Freud, who I think you're going to find a knockout blow.

他说，康斯太勃尔比特纳更打动人心，因为你能感受到他对土地的真诚表达。

He says, constable is so much more moving than Turner because you feel for him it's truth telling about the land.

我觉得这话说得相当好，你不觉得吗？

And I think that's pretty good, don't you?

因为康斯太勃尔确实传达了一种真实，而事实是，即使他花很长时间才找到这种真实，也丝毫不削弱它的力量。

Because constable does tell you a truth, and the fact is he just because it takes him a long time to find that truth doesn't make it any less powerful.

当然，弗洛伊德本身就是一位伟大的艺术鉴赏家和杰出的画家。

Well, of course, Freud is a great judge of of art and a great painter in himself, you know, in his own right.

我记得国家美术馆曾举办过一场弗洛伊德参与策划的展览，他选的是康斯太勃尔的《橡树》吗？

And I remember an exhibition at the National Gallery that Freud was involved with where he picked is it Constable's Oak tree?

我想不起这幅画的确切标题了，但基本上就是一棵树的特写。

I can't remember exact title of the picture, but it's basically a close-up of a tree.

所以这幅画里只有单独一棵树。

So all you've got in the picture is a single tree.

它其实不在展览中，但却是康斯特布尔最有力地表现树木的作品之一。

It's not in the show, actually, but it is one of constable's most powerful evocations of a tree, think.

我能理解为什么有人会喜欢它，因为它有一种戏剧性。

And I can see why anybody I liked it, you know, it had a drama to it.

这棵扭曲的树被完美地描绘出来，每一寸树皮都细致观察过。

This single gnarled tree painted kind of perfectly every bit of bark observed.

我能明白为什么卢西安·弗洛伊德会喜欢这幅画。

I can see why Lucian Freud liked that.

我也很喜欢它。

I liked it as well.

但这实际上与本次展览中大多数康斯特布尔的作品不同。

But that is actually a different example from most of the constables in this exhibition.

其中大多数画面都很繁复，而且并不是只有一棵树。

Most of which are are pretty busy, and there isn't one tree.

而是有很多棵。

There's loads of them.

而且还有那幅巨大的对决作品，可以说是展览的中心，对吧？

And there's that big face off, which is kind of the center of the exhibition, isn't it?

因为康斯特布尔的缺点之一，我不得不说是某种狭隘的心态。

Because amongst constables weaknesses was what I have to describe as a kind of pettiness, really.

我的意思是，他确实不知怎么地让透纳让他心烦意乱。

I mean, he really managed somehow to let Turner get under his skin.

他不喜欢透纳在他之前就取得成功这件事。

He didn't like the fact that Turner had been successful before him.

他曾对透纳发表过各种刻薄的评论。

He'd made various snide comments about Turner.

当他最终进入皇家艺术学院，并当选为展览陈列委员会成员，后来还成为该委员会的负责人时，他制造了这种正面交锋。

And when he did eventually make it into the Royal Academy and he selected you know, he became part of the hanging jury there, the head of the hanging jury, He created this mano a mano.

我的意思是，你说你不喜欢在拳击上跟我对抗。

I mean, you say you don't like it when you go against me pugilistically.

可怜的老特纳被这位所谓的温文尔雅的康斯特布尔逼到了拳击手的位置上，而实际上他不过是个小小的卑躬屈膝者。

Well, poor old Turner was forced into a pugilistic role by the so called mild mannered constable, who actually turned out to be a bit of a minor groveler, really.

康斯特布尔把自己的画挂在与萨利斯堡大教堂画作同样显眼的位置，却把特纳的画挂在一个不那么显眼的位置。

Constable hung his picture in a fantastically prominent position at the same time's picture of Salisbury Cathedral as he put a a Turner that he hung in a lesser position.

所以他故意制造了一种局面，让自己看起来比特纳更出色，对吧？

So he deliberately set up a thing that made him look better than Turner, didn't he?

嗯，这个嘛，好吧。

Well, that I I okay.

在那一次，那幅《萨利斯堡大教堂》的画作，就在展览中，看起来非常出色。

In that one instance, that picture of Salisbury Cathedral, which is in the show and looks very well

是的。

Yeah.

他认为那是自己最重要的作品。

He considered that his preeminent painting.

所以我认为，在这一件事上，我们可以让他在皇家学院获得最高荣誉，你觉得呢？

So I think on that one occasion, we can let him have star bidding in the Royal Academy, don't you think?

但你也提到，康斯特布尔对特纳很不屑。

But also, you mentioned about constable being sniffy about Turner.

你知道是谁实际上投票反对康斯特布尔当选皇家院士，并鼓动其他人也投反对票吗？

Do you know who had actually voted against constable being elected for the Royal Academician and had encouraged other people to vote against constable?

是特纳。

Well, Turner.

所以我认为，我们可以理解可怜的老康斯特布尔有点心存不满。

So I think we can allow poor old JC to have a little bit of a chip on his shoulder.

你觉得呢？

What do you think?

嗯，这确实是真的。

Well, that's true.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，我最喜欢的一句台词其实是一个特纳对康斯特布尔的贬低之词，因为后来当康斯特布尔有了一个非凡的抱负时，他不得不在画面上到处涂抹大量白色，那种奇怪地添加白色高光的做法，被特纳嗤之以鼻。

And the fact that one of my favorite quotes in the show is, I'm afraid, a rather disparaging quote by Turner about Constable because later on, when Constable took up an extraordinary ambition, he had to sort of splatter lots of white all over the picture, This weird thing where he put white highlights in, and Turner dismissed it.

他说，这看起来就像从刷白的天花板上溅落的污渍。

He said, it looked like splashings from a whitewashed ceiling.

有人在粉刷天花板，把天花板刷成白色，结果颜料溅到了画作上，我觉得这真是个绝妙的讽刺。

Somebody's cleaning the ceiling, painting the ceiling white, and it splashed down onto the pictures, which I think is a good put down.

即使是在贬低别人时，他也比康斯特布尔高明，不是吗？

Mean, even at put downs, he was better than constable, wasn't he?

是的。

Yeah.

我们都遇到过那种粉刷天花板却没在地板或墙壁上铺好防尘布的装修工。

We've all had those decorators in who've painted the ceiling and not put the right dust blanket down on the floor or the wall.

然后你就看到那些白色的斑点，对吧？

And, you know, you you see the sort of white splats, don't you?

是的。

Yeah.

我得承认，那些其实是我并不喜欢的康斯太勃尔的作品。

I I have to concede, actually, those are the constables I don't like.

那个奇怪的时刻。

That that strange moment.

我认为，他用这种技法最不成功的画作是《滑铁卢桥》。

And I think the painting where he he had his least success with this technique is the one of Waterloo Bridge.

他职业生涯后期决定在画上添加太多白色斑点的那一刻。

That moment later in his career where he decides to put too many white dots on.

我不太确定他当时想表达什么，但在展览中，他们把这变成一个特纳大获全胜的时刻，对吧？

I'm not quite sure what he was getting at, but in the exhibition, they make that rather a moment where where Turner is triumphant, don't they?

因为他们放了那部伟大电影《特纳先生》的片段，蒂莫西·斯波尔饰演特纳，而詹姆斯·弗莱特饰演一位拘谨刻板的约翰·康斯太勃尔，拼命想把《伦敦桥》这幅画画好，而特纳却走进来，在他的海景画上添上标志性的红色小人，彻底碾压了他。

Because they show that clip from the great film, mister Turner, in which Timothy Spall plays Turner, where you see James Fleet as a rather sort of fussy and pedantic John Constable, trying desperately hard to get that painting of London Bridge right, and Turner comes in and adds his famous red boy to one of his maritime pictures and completely wipes the floor with him.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，那些画真的很糟糕，不是吗？

I mean, they are awful, aren't they?

那些是晚期的康斯太勃尔作品。

They're those late those late constables.

这种到处添加白色点的做法，实在是一种奇怪的风格。

It's such a strange manner, this thing of adding all the white to it.

但我觉得，很高兴听到你坦率地说你觉得晚期作品有些令人困扰，因为我也有同感。

But I don't think I mean, I'm glad to hear you be honest about it and say that you found the late work a bit troubling because I did too.

我觉得在那个对比中，透纳晚期的作品——我的意思是，到头来他们俩都疯了，不是吗？

I thought I thought in that comparison, Turner's late I mean, they're both crazy by the end, weren't they?

两人都疯得像一罐豆子一样，我觉得。

Both are mad mad as a tin of beans, I think.

但透纳的疯狂 somehow 比康斯太勃尔的疯狂更有成果。

But but Turner's madness was somehow more fruitful than constable's madness.

但没错，那种洒满整个画面的白色斑点——别人称之为雪花——确实很烦人。

But, yeah, that was as annoying that that white that sprinkling of white snow as others called it on everything.

不过我们还是回到索尔兹伯里那幅画吧。

But just going back to the Salisbury picture.

对吧？

Right?

在康斯特布尔进入那种糟糕的白色洒点阶段之前，另一件事是那幅带彩虹的索斯伯里画作。

The the other thing I have about Constable before he gets into this bad white sprinkling phase, The Sorsbury painting with the rainbow.

他有一种想要把东西填满画面每一个角落的感觉。

There's a sense in him of wanting to put something into every corner of the picture.

这与素描非常不同。

It's very different from the sketches.

对吧？

Right?

比如那些素描，他做过一系列尝试，就是为了练好画云。

The sketches for example, there's all those sequences he did where he was trying to get good at painting clouds.

所以他一遍又一遍地画云。

So he paints clouds over and over and over again.

人们后来开始钦佩这种康斯特布尔漫长而执着地追求完美画云的努力。

And it's something that people have come to admire, you know, constables long winded effort to be able to paint clouds perfectly.

有人曾批评他之前的画作，说他画不好云。

Someone had criticized him for it in a previous picture, said he couldn't paint clouds.

于是他开始一遍又一遍、没完没了地画云。

So off he goes painting clouds over and over and over and over and over again.

有些人对此印象深刻。

And some people are impressed by that.

他们觉得，哦，这是一位艺术家真正投入工作，极其认真地完成任务。

They think, oh, you know, this is the an artist really getting down to to his job and doing it really thoroughly.

我只是觉得，他其实并不太擅长画云。

I just thought, well, he just wasn't very good at painting clouds.

他花了很长时间才学会画云。

It took him a long time to learn to do it.

所以我对这一点的看法比一些人更轻视。

So I was a little bit more dismissive of that than than some can be.

但我注意到，在这个展览中的他的画作里，天气元素非常少。

But the one thing I noticed about his pictures is that in this show in this show, there's very little weather in them.

我的意思是，那种天气的变化。

And by that, I mean, the sort of shift of weather.

你知道，天气能瞬间从晴朗变成寒冷，接着下雨，然后下雪。

You know that weather has this ability to be sunny one minute and somehow cold the next, and rainy, and then snow.

那种英格兰气候特有的任性风力，在他的画里却远远不够。

And that wind that willfulness of of the English climate, you just don't get enough of it in him.

我的意思是，所有那些关于斯陶尔河的画作，都笼罩在一种均匀的夏日阳光下。

I mean, all those pictures of the River Stour, they're all sort of bathed in a in a equal summery light.

其实都是同样的白天、同样的云彩，以及同样一种模糊的田园氛围。

And it's the same sort of daytime in the same sort of clouds, really, and the same sort of vaguely pastoral mood.

这些画作中，关于气候和天气的真实自然景观表现范围实际上非常有限。

And there's actually very little range in terms of real landscape feeling about the the climate and the weather in them.

对于一位风景画家来说，我认为这有点不足。

For a landscape painter, I think that's a bit of a short coming.

但他总是会在角落里填上些什么。

But also, he always fills the corner with something.

你说他没有像克劳德那样绘画。

You could there's a you say he didn't paint like Claude.

嗯，没有。

Well, no.

但像克劳德那样，你会觉得画面是经过精心安排的。

But like Claude, you feel there's a management of the image going on.

所以总会有只小狗在角落，或者一艘船的末端在另一处。

So there's always, like, a little dog in this corner, the end of a boat in this one.

如果云层之间有空隙，他们就会在天空加一道彩虹，这种画面的构建方式，考虑到他以常年户外写生而闻名。

They put a rainbow in the sky if there's a gap between the clouds, and there's a building of of the image, which, you know, considering he's so famous for painting outdoors all the time.

当他回到工作室时，会像拼图一样，把各种片段拼凑成完整的画面。

When he gets back to the studio, there's a building of the image of bits that feels almost like the construction of a jigsaw puzzle.

确保每一部分都有一些有趣的内容。

You know, make sure that every section's got something interesting in it.

最终呈现的效果，是一种更像饼干盒上的图案，而非透纳所创作的任何作品。

And what it adds up to is a kind of image that belongs on a on a biscuit tin, really, more happily than anything that Turner ever did.

我的意思是，你根本无法想象特纳在他伟大的水彩画时期会为一罐饼干提供如此合适的图像。

I mean, you can't imagine Turner in his great watercolor phase ever supplying the correct imagery for a tin of biscuits.

你当然可以用康斯太勃尔做到这一点，对吧？

You can certainly do it with Constable, can't you?

对于老康斯太勃尔，人们总是称他的画作风格为‘饼干罐风’或‘巧克力盒风’。

For old Constable, he's always called biscuit tinny or chocolate box.

饼干罐和巧克力盒上印画并不是在他作画时才出现的。

Biscuit tins and chocolate box didn't invent with pictures on by when he was painting things.

所以我觉得这确实是这样。

So I think that's a Yeah.

一种回顾性的

A retrospective

但你知道这是什么吗？

But but you know what it is?

抱歉，我又插一句。

Sorry to interject again.

抱歉。

Sorry.

你知道那是什么吗？

You know what that is?

这是因为你有没有买过那种饼干盒，盒盖上有种浮雕效果，是下面压出来的，所以有点鼓起来？

It's because you did you ever buy those biscuit tins where there's a sort of repousse effect on the top where they've been sort of pressed in from underneath, so they're slightly bubbly?

就像圣诞景色之类的，小雪人稍微凸起来一点。

So it's like a Christmas view or something, and the little snowman is slightly raised up.

你知道我说的是什么意思吧？

You know you know what I mean?

鼓起来的？我不像你那么懂饼干，但我同意你。

The bubbly I'm not as much of a biscuit connoisseur as you were, but I'll take You

知道，当然。

know, sure.

你看，每次我去苏格兰，看到的都是用有浮雕盖子的铁盒装的苏格兰短饼，你能摸到短饼周围的起伏纹理。

Look, every time I go to Scotland, all I see is is Scottish shortcake being sold in tins that have a repousse top, where you can sort of feel the undulations around the around the shortbread.

但警官的画作就有这种感觉。

But, constable's pictures have that feel.

它们就有这种感觉。

They have that feel.

因为颜料在某些地方被厚重地涂抹，尤其是当他进入白点阶段后，这些画作呈现出一种凸起的效果，仿佛有人从背面将某些部分推了出来。

Because of the way the thick paint is put on in places, and particularly once he gets into the white dot phase, they have that repousse feel as if someone's pushed out bits of them from behind.

而且，这进一步增强了这种氛围——一种假装是真实景观却实际上并不真实的感觉。

And again, it adds to this atmosphere, I think, of a constructed landscape that is pretending to be a real one, but that does doesn't actually feel like it.

因为气候、真实的天气感被简化成了一种公式，抱歉。

Because the the climate, the actual sense of weather has been reduced to a kind of formula that sorry.

我插话说了这一点。

I interjected to say that.

但饼干盒的问题，我在他一些最好的作品中也感受到了。

But the biscuit tin problem is one I felt with some of his best images.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得你只需要给他的画一些时间。

I think you just need to give his picture time.

我觉得你对康斯太勃尔需要有些耐心。

I think you need to have some patience with constable.

这非常主观，但我一直认为，评判一幅风景画好坏的重要标准是我是否能听到它。

This is very subjective, but I always think the great test of a landscape painting is whether I can hear it.

看到莫奈的作品，我能听到水声。

With a Monet, I hear water.

看到康斯太勃尔的作品，我能听到风声，听到天气的变化，而这些我从来看不到透纳的作品中感受到。

With a constable, I hear wind, and I hear the weather, which I'd which I never do with Turner.

我不是说透纳可能没有试图让我听到这些，但我总觉得康斯太勃尔能让你真正融入风景，深深投入其中，让你的所有感官都对它产生反应。

I'm not saying that maybe Turner wasn't trying to to allow me to hear it, but I just think that constable does let you get into the landscape and get involved in it to such an extent that all your senses become alive to it.

现在，你提出了一个关于康斯太勃尔成品画作中细节繁复的有趣观点。

Now you raise, I think, an interesting point about constable's busyness in his finished pictures.

而且人们参观展览时，这个展览的一个妙处在于，有时你能看到一幅画的草图就摆在它的完成品旁边。

And and people going around the show, one of the nice things about creation of the show is that, occasionally, you can see the sketch for a picture beside the finished painting.

正如你所说，你会注意到添加了各种小细节。

And you will notice, as you say, the addition of various little features.

康斯特布尔称这些为眼药水。

Constable called this eye salve.

所以可能会有人从溪流中喝水，或者出现彩虹等等。

So there might be someone taking a little drink from a stream or rainbow appears or so on and so forth.

这是因为康斯特布尔希望他的画作不仅具有科学性，即真实地呈现自然景观的真相，而且如他所说，还必须带有道德情感。

Now this is because Constable wanted his pictures to be not only scientific, that is in the sense of actually representing the truth of the nature in the landscape, but also, as he said, they must also have a moral feeling.

而这种道德情感是他后期才添加进去的部分。

And and the moral feeling is the bit that he adds late into the stage of it.

对许多今天的观众来说，这种感觉令人不适。

And for a lot of viewers today, that feels uncomfortable.

它显得有点过于感伤，我认为这就是你产生‘饼干盒’感觉的原因。

It feels a little bit overly sentimental, and I think that's where you get your biscuit tin feeling from.

你在展览中提到的那幅画——索尔兹伯里大教堂，周围环绕着彩虹，云彩在它周围翻滚，正向你展示了这一点。

And the painting that you mentioned is demonstrating this for you in the show, the painting of Salisbury Cathedral, which is surrounded by a rainbow, and there are clouds swirling around it.

我认为，这幅画最充分地传达了他对世界的一种道德情感。

That is the picture that for him, I think, has delivered his most kind of moral feeling of the world.

顺便说一句，我认为这幅画也是在康斯特布尔的都市语境中被误解最深的作品，展览中也同样误解了它。

And for what it's worth, I think it's also the picture that is most misunderstood in constable's urban, and it's also misunderstood in the exhibition.

展览中说，索尔兹伯里大教堂笼罩在乌云之下，这代表了康斯特布尔对当时政治的看法，因为据说他是一位保守的托利党人。

They say that in the show that Salisbury Cathedral is under a cloud, and that this represents Constable's view of the politics of the time because it's alleged that Constable was a kind of reactionary Tory.

事实上，大教堂正从云层中浮现，而彩虹之所以出现，是因为一束阳光突然穿透云层，照亮了整个场景。

In fact, the cathedral is emerging from the clouds, and the rainbow is there because the shaft of light is suddenly emerging from the sun and illuminating the scene.

我们确切地知道康斯特布尔在这幅画中想告诉我们什么。

And we know exactly what constable was trying to tell us in this painting.

因为当他首次展出这幅画时，他实际上在画旁贴了一小段诗，这首诗出自18世纪苏格兰诗人詹姆斯·汤姆森的《四季》。

Because when he first exhibited it, he actually pinned a little bit of a poem on the wall beside the picture, and the poem was one of the seasons by an eighteenth century Scottish poet called James Thompson.

沃尔特，如果你不介意的话，我要读给你听康斯特布尔贴在画旁的那段诗句。

And, Walt, if you don't mind, I'm going to read you the lines that Constable pinned next to the picture.

你介意吗？

Do you mind?

用苏格兰口音吗？

In a Scottish accent or not?

不用。

No.

不用。

No.

用我最拿手的、有特权的约翰·康福德口音。

In my best, a privileged John Comfortable accent.

总之，这是一本书。

Anyway, here's a book.

从天穹之面，散乱的云朵汹涌奔腾，无垠的天空亦如此壮丽。

As from the face of heaven, the scattered clouds tumultuous rove, the interminable sky sublime as well.

世界拓展出更纯净的蔚蓝。

And the world expands a purer azure.

因此，诗人汤普森描述的是暴雨骤然停歇的那一刻。

So Thompson, the poet, is describing that moment when suddenly the rainstorm breaks.