第五季第17集：与达米恩·赫斯特的访谈

所以，文化层面的讨论就止于绘画，而当我们无法理解马桶价值一千万时，就会对它产生怀疑。

So that's sort of where the cultural bit ends is in the painting and then we're suspicious of the toilet unless we can understand that it's 10,000,000.

所以，它的价格本身赋予了它价值，包括社会、历史和接受度方面的价值。

So the the the price of it adds the value as it were, the social and the historic and the receptive value.

人们正是根据这一点来评判它的。

That's what people people judge it by.

你是指这个意思吗？

Is that what you mean?

不是。

No.

我认为它们并没有关联。

Don't I think they're not connected.

我认为这反而成了阻碍。

I think it gets in the way.

我认为，它由黄金制成这一点反而妨碍了它的价值，因为我觉得事实并非如此。

I think the fact that it's made out of gold gets in the way of its value because it's like, I think it's not.

因为那件作品，我想它想表达的是什么？

Because that piece of I think what was it about?

它是一幅讽刺作品。

It was it was a sarcastic piece.

卡塔兰总是很讽刺。

Catalan's always sarcastic.

是的。

Yeah.

他称之为《美国》。

He called it America.

对吧？

Right?

一个名为《美国》的金马桶，不就是在评论美国吗？

A gold toilet called America is a comment on America, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

他必须用黄金制作，否则你就失去了这个观点：这种极其昂贵的贵重材料是一种类似于美国文化中可丢弃概念的体现。

And he had to make it in gold, otherwise you lose that point about this kind of extremely expensive precious stuff being a sort of disposable idea like American culture.

我想那就是

I guess that was the

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我完全认同，甚至更进一步。

I mean, I'm a 100% into it, you know, more even.

但问题是，这些贵重材料反而成了阻碍。

But it's the problem is that the precious materials get in the way.

你知道，把一根香蕉贴在墙上卖200美元，完全没有问题。

Know, you can sell a banana stuff taped to a wall for $200, no problem.

根本不会有人看着那根香蕉说：但香蕉才50便士啊。

It's like nobody will look at that banana and go, but bananas are only 50 p.

你知道，没人会这么做。

You know, no one's going do that.

你是支持加泰罗尼亚还是反对加泰罗尼亚？

Are you pro Catalan or anti Catalan?

支持。

Pro.

我爱加泰罗尼亚。

I love Catalan.

我爱加泰罗尼亚，但我更支持艺术，你知道，因为我是做艺术的，所以看待和评价艺术价值是另一回事。

And I love Catalan but I'm and I'm pro art, you know, but it's like to be I mean, you know, because I make art it's a different thing to kind of valuing it or evaluating it and valuing it.

但当你看到加泰罗尼亚时，你会想，你知道，这太容易了，比如那根香蕉，我记得卖了100美元，然后在二级市场能卖到200美元，最后卖了大约六百万美元之类的。

But, know, when you look at Catalan, you go that, you know, it's like, you know, mean, you know, it's easy for me to when you to, you know I mean, the, you know, the banana I think was sold for like $100 and then you could buy one on the secondary market for $200 and then it sold for about 6,000,000 or something.

差不多是这样。

Something like that.

是的。

Yes.

但在他的市场里，一根旧香蕉和一个纯金马桶没什么区别。

But then in his market, there's not a lot of difference between an old banana and a solid gold toilet.

我想说的是，从文化上讲，我们并不买账这些该死的材料。

And what I'm saying is culturally, we don't buy into the fucking materials.

我们根本对此不感兴趣。

We're just not interested.

我们就是不认可。

We just go no.

这并不意味着什么，我认为这与任何人都能做这件事有关。

It's not because that means that and and I think it's connected to the fact that anyone can do it.

这意味着，如果它关乎珍贵材料，那我就可以自己弄点黄金，做个马桶，它就能值两千万或一千二百万。

It means anyone can you know, that means if if it's the if it's about the precious materials, that means I can get my own gold and I can make a toilet and it's gonna be worth 20,000,000 or 12,000,000.

它的价值会超过其组成部分的总和，这就是炼金术。

It's gonna be worth more than the sum of its parts, which is alchemy.

所以我们本质上是在说，每个人都是炼金术士。

So we're basically then saying everyone's an alchemist.

每个人都可以是炼金术士。

Everyone can be an alchemist.

但没人喜欢这样。

But nobody likes that.

他们不想要它。

They don't want it.

所以他们会拒绝它，抵制它，直接说不。

So they'd go no to it and they resist it and they just say, no.

我宁愿要墙上的那根香蕉。

I'd rather have the banana on the wall.

你知道，总有一天，墙上的那根香蕉会比金马桶卖得更贵。

You know, there'll be a time that the banana on the wall will sell for more than the gold toilet.

是的。

Yeah.

你应该知道，总有一天，金马桶的价格会低于它所含黄金的价值。

You know, there should be a time that the that the gold toilet can sell less for the gold in it.

你知道吗？

You know?

但黄金确实是美好的东西，你知道，不只是我们的文明这样认为，所有人都这么觉得。

Except the gold is lovely stuff, you know, and it's not just our civilization that thinks that everybody's thought it.

这是难以置信的东西。

It's unbelievable stuff.

我的意思是，这真是难以置信的东西。

I mean it is unbelievable stuff.

它有一种我明白它是什么的感觉。

It has a sort of I know what it is.

从文化上讲，我们相信神圣之物，而神圣之物没有可定义的价值。

It's like culturally we believe in the sacred and the sacred has no definable value.

它是一个变动的价值。

It's it's a moving value.

黄金是固定价值，它干扰了神圣性。

The gold is a fixed value and it interferes with the sacred.

所以当你认为某物是神圣的时候，你会发现很难接受黄金的价值是固定的，无论它值多少。

So you find it very hard to go this is sacred when you go, but the gold is worth x no matter how much it is.

即使你说它值两亿，你还是会想，但对我来说，它值更多，因为它是神圣的物品。

Even if you say it's 200 millions worth of gold, you go, but to me it's worth more than that because it's a sacred object.

你不能把金钱和它联系起来。

You can't connect the money.

你不应该把金钱和这个物品联系起来。

You shouldn't be able to connect the money to the object.

是的。

Yeah.

但但但但黄金在某种程度上是个糟糕的例子，因为历史上每个人都喜爱黄金。

But but but but gold is in a way it's a bad example because it historically, everybody has loved gold.

你知道，阿兹特克人曾称它为神的汗水，不是吗？还有那些说法？

You know, the Aztecs used to call it the sweat of the gods, didn't they, and all that?

是的。

Yeah.

它一直具有某种超凡神圣的特质，一种特别的东西，能够改变事物的力量。

It's always had that quality of being somehow extra sacred, something special, something that can change things.

尽管它本质上只是一种普通的金属，但在文化和历史上，它却拥有这种独特的存在感。

Even though it's basically just a lumber metal, culturally and historically, it has this presence.

我的意思是，听好了。

I mean, listen.

你刚才说的那部分已经很有趣了。

That was what you said there was already interesting.

我只是想再谈一点，达蒙。

I just wanna move on to one other point here, Damon.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，我认为你可能是世界上最有名的艺术家。

So I mean, I think you're I mean, you're probably the the best known artist in the world.

至少你名列前茅。

At least you're up there.

对吧？

Right?

所以你是其中之一。

So you're one of them.

但当我翻阅你的各种传记时。

But looking looking through your your your your your biographies and that.

我的意思是，据我所知，你并没有获得过大英帝国员佐勋章或大英帝国司令勋章，对吧？

I mean, as far as I can tell, right, you you haven't got an MBE or a CBE, have you?

任何这类荣誉都没有。

Any of that stuff.

你也没有被封为爵士，对吧？

You don't have a knighthood, do you?

没有。

No.

你 neither 是皇家艺术研究院的成员，也没有官方代表英国参加威尼斯双年展。

Haven't you're not you haven't represented you're you're not a member of the Royal Academy and you haven't represented Britain at the Venice Biennale officially.

所以，是啊。

So Yeah.

这些荣誉曾经提供给你过吗？还是你一直被轻视，没人愿意给你任何东西？或者你根本不喜欢这些勋章？

Were these things ever offered to you or or have you always just been looked down on and no one's bothered to give you anything or or you don't like gongs or what?

这个问题的答案是什么？

What's the answer to that?

嗯，其实有几件事。

Well, a few things really.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，确实有人提供过。

I mean, have been offered, you know.

雅各布·罗斯柴尔德给我打过电话，提议授予我大英帝国司令勋章，我拒绝了；然后他又问是不是因为晚上，我是否愿意接受，我还是拒绝了。

Jacob Rothschild phoned me up and asked me offered me the CBE and then asked me I said no and then he asked me if it was a night and would I accept and I said no.

还有，比如皇家艺术研究院，当蒂姆·马勒——我非常敬重的人——在那儿时，他一直想让我加入，但你知道，我只是觉得，我需要你们的时候，你们在哪？

But and then, yeah, ARA, you know, when Tim Mahler went there who I love and respect, He was, you know, he was trying to get me to join, but, know, I mean, it's just I just you just think, where were you when I needed you?

你知道的。

You know?

就像，我不能，你知道，我真的不怎么认同这些东西。

It's like, I can't, you know, I can't really I don't really, you know, I don't really buy into that stuff.

我的意思是，我接受了特纳奖，我记得杰伊跟我说过，你看，如果你有了特纳奖，我们就能在美洲产生更大的影响。

I mean, I accepted the Turner Prize and I remember that was Jay was saying to me, look, you know, we'll we'll be able to, you know, make a lot more impact in America if you have if you actually if you've got the Turner Prize.

所以我说，哦，好吧。

So and I went, oh, okay.

但我现在不这么认为了。

But I don't believe that now.

但我并不喜欢，你知道，我记得特纳奖真的很糟糕，因为我两次被压制了，我记得和格伦维尔·戴维在外面抽烟，当他即将获奖时，他说，天啊。

But I don't like you know, I remember the Turner Prize was horrible really because I did I got dominated twice and there was I remember having a cigarette outside with Grenville Davy and he when he was gonna win it, you know, and he was like, oh, god.

这简直是一场噩梦。

You know, this is a nightmare.

我们因为这事还闹翻了。

You know, I sort of fall out with each other over it.

当你有朋友时，每个人都在过来对你说‘祝你好运’，这很难受。

When you it's hard to have your friend when everyone's coming up to you saying, good luck.

我希望你赢。

I hope you win it.

你知道，我觉得安吉拉·布洛克当时也参与其中，我们曾经讨论过。

You know, I think Angela Bullock was with it at one point we were talking about.

她说，这简直是个噩梦。

She was saying, oh, it's a nightmare.

不过，那是特纳奖的黄金时代。

It was the great days of the Turner Prize though.

那时它真的产生了巨大影响。

That's when it really had an impact.

你知道，我临终前会说的关于你的事就是，你基本上是改变艺术故事的人之一，尤其是在英国，甚至更广泛的范围内。

You know, of the things I'll go to my grave saying about you is that basically you were one of the people that changed the story of art certainly in Britain but even wider than that.

因为当我刚开始当艺术评论家时，当代艺术在人们感兴趣的事情中排名很低。

Because when I started out as an art critic, contemporary art was really down the list of things people were interested in.

所以你在画廊外面挂了个牌子，写着：这是一场当代艺术展。

So you put a sign outside the gallery saying, this is a contemporary art show.

人们排着队绕道离开，你知道的。

People queued up the other way to leave it, you know.

它们根本没有价值，也没有任何影响。

They had no real value, had no impact.

然后，你知道，你出现了。

And then, you know, you came along.

萨奇带着他在边界路的出色画廊出现了。

Saatchi came along with his brilliant gallery in Boundary Road.

你知道，发生了一些了不起的事情。

And, you know, there's a few wonderful things that happened.

还有那个，你知道的，拉切尔·怀特里德和那座美丽的房子。

There was there was that, you know, Rachel White Reed and the beautiful house.

事情发生了，艺术突然从报纸的第89版搬到了头版。

Things happened and suddenly art moved from page 89 in the paper to the front page.

你知道，你在这其中扮演了重要角色。

And you know, you were a big part of that.

所以人们都忘了这一点，你知道。

So people people have forgotten that, you know.

人们曾经对你冷嘲热讽，但他们忘了，如果没有你，泰特现代美术馆就不会存在，英国公众与当代艺术的关系也会大不相同，因为你确实打破了一些东西。

That people could be snide about you, but they've forgotten that without you, there will be no Tate Modern and and the relationship of the British public to to contemporary art would be very different because you you kind of punctured something there.

但我猜你从未打算这么做。

But I guess you never set out to do that.

它只是自然而然地发生了，对吧？

It just sort of happened, didn't it?

我认为我确实有意为之，但更多是出于恐惧和兴奋的混合，你知道。

I think I did set out to do it but more, you know, it was a mixture of fear and you know, excitement.

我的意思是，你知道，我看过性手枪乐队的演出，77年时我12岁，特别迷恋他们，看到他们被电台禁播时，我想，天啊，真棒。

I mean, you know, I've seen the Sex Pistols and I was into that one, you know, till I was 12 in '77 and you know, saw them get banned on the radio and I was like, shit, man.

在那之前我喜欢披头士，那是我爸爸的音乐，我至今仍深爱披头士，但我记得当时心想，你知道，你真的可以改变世界。

You know, I like the Beatles before that, which was my dad's music and I still love the Beatles, but I remember thinking, you know, you can change the world.

你知道吗，这些家伙正在改变世界，改变事物的方式。

You know, it's like these guys are changing the world and, you know, changing the way things are.

而且，你还记得吗，当时卡尔·安德烈的砖块在展览中被报纸嘲笑，还出现了不少漫画，人们说：‘现在砖块也能算艺术了。’

And, yeah, I mean, remember also seeing Karl Andre's bricks at the tape being ridiculed in the newspaper and some, you know, cartoons being made of it and people going, now bricks are art.

你知道吗？

You know?

然后我记得我当时想，我也得跟这种东西竞争。

And and then I remember I was thinking, I've got to compete with that.

我的艺术作品必须能在报纸上生存下来——当别人的作品占据大幅版面，而我的作品只被缩成一个小图时。

When my art's got to be able to survive in the newspaper when it's a big picture of someone else and a tiny picture of my artwork.

所以我心想，我们必须让作品在大尺寸下看起来依然出色。

So I was thinking we've got to make the artworks look great at this big.

后来我记得在塞恩特美术馆，有个《每日星报》的记者拿着一袋薯条，站在我的《鱼眼》作品前说：‘现在鱼和薯条也算艺术了。’

And then I remember in the Serpentine, there was a guy from the Daily Star came in with a bag of chips and stood in front of my fish peeps and said, now fish and chips are art.

我记得当时想，是啊，我的作品能挺过这种场面，也能在这个世界里生存下来，同时不失去另一个世界的意义。

And I remember thinking, yeah, I made it to survive that and just, you know, to live in this world as well as the other world.

但我希望它能在所有世界中生存下去。

But I wanted it to live in all worlds.

但你知道，我只是觉得，唯一的问题是，艺术会变得大众化。

But, you know, I just thought the the only the only problem with that was that art becomes, you know, popular with the people.

你知道，出租车司机会说：嘿，伙计。

You know, cab drivers go, hey, mate.

你做的那个鱼和薯条作品是吗？

Did you do that fish and chip piece?

你知道，我会遇到这种情况。

You know, I'd get that.

你觉得这会引发一场讨论，而且不管它是否高雅都没关系。

You think that starts a debate in a conversation, and it doesn't matter if it's not highbrow.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但如果你一开始就想改变世界，你希望把它变成什么样？

But so you you you if you if you started out to change the world, what did you want to change it into?

你到底追求的是什么？

What was it you were after?

我一开始就说过了，我一直想改变世界，但从来不在乎要改成什么样，这或许不是什么好事。

I sort of said that at the beginning that I kind of I've always wanted to change the world but never really cared what into, which is maybe not such a good thing.

我的博物馆现在在纽波特街举办一场展览，参展的是谢泼德·法雷伊和太空入侵者。

I mean, you know, I've got that show on at Newport Street, my museum at the minute with Shepard Fairey and Space Invader.

谢泼德的目标非常明确。

And Shepard's very clear.

他想要创造一个更好的世界，希望做出这些改变，比如减少汽车、保护森林，还有所有这些真正了不起的事情——对世界有益，对我们的孩子有益，对将来有益。

You know, he wants to make a better world and he wants to, you know, make these changes and, you know, less cars and save, you know, all these kind of, you know, really great save save the forests and all these kind of things that are really great, you know, and good for the good for the world, good for our kids, good for the future.

但我当时疯狂地投身于朋克，热衷于改变一切。

But I was like, you know, so so so madly into punk and changing things.

我从未真正思考过要改成什么样。

I never really sort of dwelled on on what into.

我只是热爱改变。

I just love change.

那么，你有没有任何遗憾呢？

So do you regret anything at all then?

我的意思是，你做了这么多事情，其中一些还惹恼了很多人。

I mean you've done so many things, some of which have rubbed people up the wrong way and annoyed a lot of people.

以你现在这位年长一点的艺术家的智慧视角，你会做出什么不同的选择呢？

What would you have done differently then with your new wise position as a slightly older artist?

我的意思是，我其实并不后悔任何事。

I mean, I don't really regret anything.

我的意思是，我尽量不去后悔。

I mean, I try not to regret things.

我的意思是，你瞧，我回看过去，发现当时很多我曾怀疑的事情，现在我反而更加确信了。

I mean, you you know, I kind of look at it and you kind of, you know, a lot there's so much more that I kind of doubted at the time that I'm kind of sure of now.

你知道，我在高古轩画廊办过一场叫《毫无绝对腐败感》的展览，当时我做了旋转的绘画作品。

You know, mean, there was I I I have one show at Gagosian called No Sense of Absolute Corruption where I kind of had rotating spin paintings.

我让它们旋转起来，还展出了一头切碎的牛，那是我第一次展示漂浮的沙滩球，回头看时我想，天啊，我本该放些糟糕的音乐，搞个游乐园那样的氛围，但你知道，类似这样的东西。

I made him spin and I had a sliced up cow and was the first time I showed the floating beach ball and I kind of looked at that and I thought one day, oh my god, I should have had bad music playing and like a fun fair but, you know, something like that.

所以当时是静音的。

And I didn't so it was silent.

所以像这样的事，我会想，我只是错过了那种最后的点睛之笔，你知道，但我不后悔我所做的决定、那些改变，你知道，这仅仅是一段令人兴奋的旅程、一条充满活力的轨迹，它包容了所有的错误。

And so something like that I kind of go, I just missed that sort of finishing touch of something, you know, but not but I don't regret the moves and the things that I've done and the changes and, you know, I mean, you know, it's just a you know, it's just an exciting journey and an exciting line and it's like, you know, I incorporate it incorporates all the mistakes.

你知道，我最欣赏的那些艺术家，都犯过错误、走过弯路、做过糟糕的选择，但他们最终都抵达了目的地。

You know, all my favorite artists, you know, made mistakes and wrong footings and bad turns and they eventually got where they were going.

所以我认为，对你我而言，艺术的魅力就在于它是一个人生命的轨迹。

So I think it's, you know, it's not you know, to me, art's the excitement about art is it's the map of a person's life.

我的艺术史，就是我人生的地图。

And you know, my history of my art is a map of my life.

所以它确实做到了它该做的事，或者说我以为艺术应该做到的事。

So it kind of does what it's supposed to do or what I think art's supposed to do.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么未来会怎样呢？

So what's the future then?

你的洞穴开放后，没人能进去看了，那你接下来有什么计划？

What have you got planned for us once your grotto's opened up and nobody can go and see that?

我的意思是，你目前没有经纪人吧？

I mean, you haven't got a dealer at the moment.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

你没有固定的画廊在合作，是吗？

You haven't got a specific gallery you're kind of

你还在和拉里和杰伊合作，

working at?

但我不太确定这些东西现在是怎么运作的了。

I'm still working with Larry and Jay, but I'm not really sure how that stuff works anymore.

这对我来说真的说不通。

It make sense to me really.

但是

But

所以那是高古轩和白立方画廊，但你和他们算是独立的吗？

So that's Gagosian and and the White Cube Gallery, but you're sort of independent of them or what?

我的意思是，我不太清楚。

I mean, don't know.

我其实不明白你现在是怎么规划职业生涯的。

I don't actually understand how you set your career up now.

你看起来就像一个自由的个体，做着自己感兴趣的事情。

You seem to be like a kind of loose atom doing doing things that you fancy.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，总有那么一句话，不是吗？

Well, you know, there's always that saying, isn't it?

第一只老鼠、第二只老鼠得到奶酪，或者第三只、第四只老鼠。

That that that, you know, the first mouse second mouse gets the cheese or the third mouse or the fourth mouse.

所以我一直对改变现状持谨慎态度，因为我不确定改变后会怎样，里面又有什么。

So I've always been sort of wary of kind of going into changing things without really knowing how it's gonna change or what's in there.

我的意思是，画廊有其功能，确实如此。

I mean, you know, the galleries have a function and it's a function.

它可能不是最完美的功能。

It might not be the perfect function.

我的很多想法其实都源自维多利亚时代，比如甲醛的使用，那就是维多利亚时代的做法。

I mean, a lot of my ideas are Victorian as, you know, you know, like a lot of the the formaldehyde is a Victorian thing.

蝴蝶压在玻璃下，这也是维多利亚时代的创意。

The butterflies under glass is a Victorian idea.

他们以前会制作茶盘，我觉得画廊体系其实也是维多利亚时代的产物。

They used to make tea trays, and I think really the gallery system is a Victorian idea.

我的意思是，我觉得它最初是像沙龙那样设置的，他们掀开窗帘，让你看到画作。

I mean, I think it was set up, you know, with a salon and, you know, they've taken away the curtains, you know, where they open the curtains to show you the painting.

但你知道，这就像一场游戏，他们只是房产中介，很多中介以为自己拥有了一切，因为他们手里有房子的钥匙。

But, you know, it's a it's a, you know, it's a game and it's like, you know, they're only estate agents and a lot of estate agents think they own everything because they've got the keys to the house.

但我觉得这正在发生变化。

But I think it's changing.

我的意思是，有史以来第一次，对我来说，也许在艺术史上，一位艺术家从版画上赚的钱比从绘画上还多。

I mean, the as an example, for the first time ever for me, I think in the history of art maybe an artist has made more money on prints than on paintings.

我和亨尼合作后，突然间，我从版画上赚的钱远远超过了绘画。

And I've made way more money on prints than the paintings just suddenly like overnight working with Henny.

这之间存在着巨大的差异。

And it's like, you know, it's a huge difference there.

但我觉得这与这样一个事实相符：过去你永远无法拥有比原画更逼真的绘画复制品，而现在印刷技术已经能做到这一点。

And it's but I think it coincides with the fact that you never could have a reproduction of a painting that was as good as the painting whereas now with printing quality, you can.

所以，图像的质量可能比原画还要好。

So images can be better than for painting.

你从一幅画的图像中能看到的东西，可能比看原画还多。

You can see more in an image of a painting than you can in the painting.

我不确定这究竟意味着什么，但我知道这意义重大，影响深远。

And I don't know what that means yet, but it means it's huge and it means a lot.

而且这更民主了，意味着有非常多非常多的人。

And it's more democratic, so it means that lots and lots lots of people.

你知道吗，从一开始我就在想，如果让我在《蒙娜丽莎》和商品授权之间二选一，我会选哪个？

You know, from the very beginning, I used to think if I was given the option of the Mona Lisa or the merchandising rights, what would I choose?

我总是想要两者兼得，我放不下这幅画，但也无法完全掌控商品授权。

And I kind of always wanted both, and I kind of can't let go of the painting and I, you know, I can't entirely get hold of the merchandising rights.

但这就是我现在的状态，看着这一切，只是在想：如果你靠画作赚了这么多钱，这到底意味着什么？

But that's kind of where I am, you know, looking at it and just thinking, you know, what does it mean if you make this much money in paints?

我的艺术经纪人杰伊·乔普林最近对我说：如果你靠印刷品赚的钱比画作还多，你还会继续画画吗？

Jay, Joplin, my art dealer said to me recently, you know, if you're are you gonna stop making paintings if you're making more money on prints?

我说：不会，但我可能会停止出售它们。

And I said, no, but I might stop selling them.

所以，我现在就处于这种状态。

And then but so I'm kinda there.

事实上，你的处境非常独特，因为有一件事没人能否认：你以大多数艺术家无法企及的方式掌控了自己的人生。

Well, you're in a pretty unique position really because the one thing that no one can argue about is that you've kind of taken control of your life in ways that most artists don't get a chance to do.

你正在以自己的方式赚钱。

You're making money kind of your way.

你正在按自己的方式做事。

You're you're doing things your way.

所以，这也是你的众多成就之一。

So you know, that's that's another of your many achievements.

和你聊天真的很愉快。

It's been really nice talking to you.

你现在在拉斯维加斯。

You're in Vegas at the moment.

是吗？

Is that right?

你在玩老虎机吗？

Are you are you playing the slot machines?

你

What do

我有个小工作室，一直在画一些画。

you I've got a little studio and I've been making some paintings.

我正在完成那些在伦敦开始的名为哈卡兰达的画作。

I'm working on those paintings I started in London called the Hacaranda paintings.

哦。

Oh.

你知道的，那些蓝色的花朵。

You know, the blue blossom flowers.

我在墨西哥做的，对吧？

When I did in Mexico, didn't I?

我把钻石头骨放在一个全是玻璃的房间里，可以看到外面，然后我在窗户上挂了我的樱花画。

I put the diamond skull in a in a room which was all glass and as you can see outside and then I hung blossom paintings, my cherry blossoms on the windows.

而外面，所有的哈卡兰达花都在盛开。

And then outside, all the hakaranda blossoms were flowering.

当我看到它们时，我想我要画一系列哈卡兰达画作。

So when I saw them I thought I'm gonna do a series of hakaranda paintings.

对。

Right.

什么

What

你为什么在拉斯维加斯搞个工作室？

the hell are you doing in Vegas with a studio?

我的意思是，这是新的环境适合你吗？

I mean, is it is it your new environment that suits you?

我一直很喜欢拉斯维加斯。

I I've always loved Vegas.

我的意思是，很多人，你知道，全世界在很多方面都在逐渐美国化，无论好坏。

I mean, a lot of people you know, I mean, the whole world is sort of turning American for good and for bad in lots of ways.

一直如此，你知道。

Always has been, know.

我记得我抽烟的时候，想着，为什么在美国买不到万宝路，也买不到丝切烟，但在伦敦却能买到万宝路淡味？

It's like I remember thinking when I smoked, I remember thinking, why can you not get Marlborough why can you not get Silk Cut in America yet you can get Marlborough Lights in London?

就像你知道的，麦当劳我在伦敦能买到，但你明白，我却没法在这里买到英国的东西。

And it's like, you know, you know, McDonald's, I can get that in London, but you know, I can't get the English things over here.

为什么会这样？

Why is that?

而且当你仔细想想时，我会停下来思考一下。

And and then when you think about it, I'll stop to think about it.

我意识到拉斯维加斯可能是美国唯一真实的地方，而其他地方都是假的。

I realized that Las Vegas is probably the only real part of America and it's the rest of it that's fake.

我很享受这一点。

I'm enjoying that.

在这么深刻的思考之后，我想我该让你继续了。

And on that deep thought, I think I'm gonna leave you to it.

和你聊天真的很愉快，达米安。

It's really nice talking to you, Damien.

保重。

Take care.

我期待看到你其他的作品，以及关于洞穴那本书的出版，我们会继续关注你的动态。

And I look forward to seeing all the other things and the book coming out about the grotto, and we'll try and keep up with what you're doing.

但和你聊天真好。

But it's nice to talk to you.

那里出现了一些有趣的事情。

And some interesting things came up there.

谢谢。

Thanks.

好的，老兄。

Alright, man.

再见。

Bye.

所以，本迪。

So, Bendy.

在拉斯维加斯的达米安，和我跟他聊天。

There's Damien in Las Vegas of all places, and me talking to him.

我觉得他真的很棒，我的意思是，我一直很喜欢和他聊天。

I thought he was really I mean, I always like talking to him.

他谈论艺术的方式让我觉得非常有趣，而且有种鼓舞人心的感觉。

He just talks about art in a in a way that I find really interesting and kind of encouraging.

他从不装腔作势。

He's never pretentious.

他就是直说自己的想法。

He just says stuff.

他说，不管你对他有什么看法，他确实是个富有创造力的思想家，对吧？

And he comes he said, what whatever else you think about him, he's an inventive thinker, isn't he?

是的。

Yeah.

很棒的采访。

Great interview.

大新闻啊。

A big scoop.

干得漂亮。

Well done.

我是达米恩·赫斯特的粉丝，倒不是因为我喜欢他所有的作品——远非如此，而是我欣赏他的精神，他对待艺术的方式。

I'm a Damien Hirst fan, not because necessarily I like all this stuff, far from it, but I just like his spirit, the way he attacks it.

你知道，艺术史学家们也和别人一样有责任。

You know, we, art historians, are as guilty as this is anyone.

我们往往把艺术家描绘成对深奥的神学或理论问题感兴趣的人。

We tend to present artists as interested in deep, meaningful theological things or theoretical things.

但很多时候，就像我们所有人一样，他们只是需要养家糊口、赚钱谋生。

And a lot of the time, just like all the rest of us, well, they just had to put food on the table and make money.

我认为达米恩的可贵之处在于，他坦率地承认自己常常在思考如何赚最多的钱。

And I think Damien is refreshingly honest in the fact that he's often thinking about what's going to make him the most money.

但与此同时，他以一种坚定的心态去做，正如他所说，要打破规则。

But at the same time, he does it with a mindset of being determined, as he said, to break the rules.

我认为这对艺术家来说是最崇高的使命之一。

And I think there's few greater callings for artists.

艺术总是在不断发展和前进。

Art is always evolving and moving on.

有人既想打破规则，又能取得成功并赚取如此多的钱，这真是非同寻常。

For someone to want to break the rules and to be successful at the same time and make as much money as he has is extraordinary.

不过我有点担心，他最后竟然去了拉斯维加斯。

Although I slightly worry well that he's ended up in Vegas.

我对赌博非常反感。

I'm very down on gambling.

我希望他没怎么玩老虎机。

I hope he's not pulling the one armed bandits too much.

没有。

No.

我觉得他根本没做这些事。

I don't think he's he's doing a bit of it.

但关于神圣性的话题，我一听到他这么说就想到了你，因为你最近在我们的播客里一直在谈论这个。

But I the stuff about the sacred, because I I thought of you as he was speaking, because it's something you've been banging on about recently in our podcast.

你知道关于哥特式大教堂、光线在哥特式大教堂中的作用，那种氛围、带来的影响，以及它如何让你沉浸其中。

So you know things about Gothic cathedral, the role of light in a Gothic cathedral, that the the atmosphere, the impact it has, the way it transports you.

这和达米安所谈论的完全不陌生。

It wasn't at all it wasn't dissimilar to to what Damien was talking about.

这种神圣性的概念。

This idea of the sacred.

我想，本肯定听到了，心里想：我知道他指的是什么。

I I thought, I bet Ben do hear that and think I know exactly what he means.

是的。

Yeah.

我当时真的在追求两件事。

I was really going for I two things.

当他开始谈论神圣性时，我非常喜欢，然后我想：天哪。

I loved it when he started talking about the sacred, and then I thought, oh my god.

因为他把卡塔兰的金马桶也扯进来了。

Because he's brought Catalan's gold toilet into it.

他开始称那个为神圣的。

He started calling that sacred.

所以我突然对着电视大喊起来。

So I was suddenly kind of shouting at the telly then.

但他已经到了职业生涯的这个阶段，曾经爬上了山顶，我不是说他在走下坡路，而是在他舒适的顶峰上俯瞰一切。

But he's decided, he's at that point in his career where he's kind of been up the hill, and I'm not saying he's coming down the hill, but he's surveying it from his comfortable summit.

我听到他如此强调艺术应当探究真相时，虽然不感到震惊，但有些惊讶，因为你知道，我认为这正是艺术真正应该关注的。

And I was slightly also not shocked, but surprised to hear that he made such a big play about art investigating the truth, which as you know, I think that is what art should really be about.

我的偶像之一约翰·康斯太勃尔曾说过，当然，一切事物中的真相，最终只有那些经得起时间考验的才会留存下来，尤其是在艺术领域。

And John Constable, one of my heroes, he said, of course, that truth in all things is only what will out, you know, last in prosperity when it comes to art.

所以我想，为达米安欢呼吧。

So I thought, hooray for Damien.

然后他说，但我不确定是否还存在任何真相。

And then he said, but I'm not sure there is any truth anymore.

所以我希望在他职业生涯的下一阶段，他能离开那些金马桶，重新去追寻真相。

So I hope in this next phase of his career, he he gets off the gold toilets and and goes back to searching for truth.

我觉得这一切都非常有趣。

I thought it was all very interesting.

那个洞穴真是太棒了。

By the the Grotto is wonderful.

我当然去过那里几次。

I've been there obviously a few times.

希望它能对外开放。

And hopefully, it will be available.

马克·马克·盖蒂拥有这座令人惊叹的图书馆，里面收藏着你见过的最诱人、最珍贵的书籍。

The Mark Mark Getty, who owns this fantastic library full of the most mouthwateringly desirable books you've ever seen.

他在夏天会向公众开放沃姆斯利公园。

He does open the Wormsley Park up in the summer.

他在那里每年举办歌剧演出，还有板球比赛。

He has an opera there that plays annually, but also cricket games.

我不知道你是否喜欢板球，但那里确实有板球比赛。

I don't know if you like cricket, but they're cricket games.

然后你或许有机会看到这个绝妙的洞穴。

And then might be the chance to see this this fantastic grotto.

好的。

Alright.

酷。

Cool.

让我们为此祈祷吧。

Let's keep our fingers crossed for that.

我想去看看。

I'd like to see it.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，他另外一件好事是，他从未接受过爵士头衔。

And also, the other good thing about him, he has not accepted a knighthood.

他从未接受过大英帝国司令勋章。

He's never accepted a CBE.

他从未接受过大英帝国员佐勋章。

He's never accepted an MBE.

他从未接受成为皇家艺术学院成员。

He's never accepted becoming a member of the Royal Academy.

他就是不合群，本迪。

He's just not clubbable, Bendy.

我原以为这可能会让你感到意外，因为我知道你迫切希望在新年荣誉名单中获得封爵。

And I thought that might throw you off in because I know you're desperate to be to be ennobled in in one of these New Year's honors lists.

但对我来说，我喜欢这样。

But for me, I like that.

我喜欢那些不愿被体制收买、被体制驯服的艺术家。

I like artists who don't wanna be bought by the establishment and quietened by them.

所以我很钦佩这一点。

So I admire that.

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢艺术界体制内的人越多地拒绝这些荣誉，因为这意味着留给我们的残羹剩饭就越多。

I like I like as many Art World Establishment members to turn down their gongs because it means there's more scraps left for the rest of us well.

所以我本来希望。

So I was hoping.

好吧，听我说。

Well, listen.

在这档播客里，我可以向你保证，我会至死捍卫你受封的权利，也许吧。

One thing I can promise you on this podcast, I will go to the grave defending your right to be ennobled than for the So maybe.

让格罗夫纳这个名字再次获得它应得的荣誉。

For the for the Grosvenor name once again to be given the honors that it deserves.

至于我，我永远只会是个普通的傻瓜杰克。

As for me, I'll always remain just a plain old stupid Jack.

带着这份乐观的想法，我和在拉斯维加斯的达米恩·赫斯特就此告别。

And on that optimistic note, that's gonna be a goodbye from me and from Damien Hirst in Las Vegas.

再见。

Bye bye.

我也再见了。

Goodbye from me.

沃尔蒂和班加利。

Waltie and Bengali.