第五季第24集：堕落的王室与特蕾西·艾敏

好的，我可以先开始吗？

Well, can I kick off that?

我知道你有很多重要的事情要告诉我们，但我只是想立刻提一下一位艺术家，他实际上今年入围了英国特纳奖的候选名单，他的名字是穆罕默德·萨米。

I know you've got some very big things to tell us about, but I just wanted to to just immediately pop up with an artist who's actually on the shortlist for the Turner Prize this year in in Britain, and his name is Mohammed Sami.

你听说过他吗？

Have you heard of him?

我听说过。

I have.

记得你提到过你认为他应该赢得特纳奖，你给我看的那幅画作的照片中有一张让我印象非常深刻，我

Remember you mentioning you thought he should have won the Turner Prize, and I was very impressed by one of the photographs of a painting you showed me, which I

觉得那好像是伊拉克战争中直升机旋翼的影子之类的东西。

think was a a shadow of helicopter blades or something like that from the Iraq war.

确实如此。

Indeed.

正是这样。

Exactly that.

穆罕默德·萨米，他曾入围特纳奖候选名单。

Mohammed Sami, he was on the Turner Prize shortlist.

他实际上于1984年出生在巴格达。

He was actually born in Baghdad in 1984.

所以他在伊拉克长大，恰好在伊拉克战争爆发时正值青少年时期，这场战争可以说彻底摧毁了他的生活。

So he grew up in Iraq and was there exactly at the time really as a teenager when the Iraq war broke out and when it's it destroyed his life to all intents and purposes.

我的意思是，他曾非常生动地描述过在黑暗中成长的经历，因为他们在巴格达的房子，过去不得不在所有窗户上钉上中密度纤维板，以防任何灯光会吸引导弹袭击，这样别人就看不到他们的位置了。

I mean, he's written very effectively about having to grow up in the darkness because their house in in Baghdad, they used to have to put MDF across all the windows in case, any of the lights would would attract missile attacks, and so nobody could see where they were.

所以他就是在这样的黑暗中长大的。

So he just grew up in this kind of darkness.

而对他来说，其中一种慰藉是他能够学习艺术。

And, for him, one of the reliefs was that he was able to study art.

于是他前往巴格达美术学院学习，并在2005年入学。

So he went and studied at the, the Institute of Fine Arts in Baghdad and entered that in 2005.

那正好是伊拉克战争开始之后不久。

So that's just after the Iraq war started.

总之，2007年，他再也无法忍受了，于是逃了出来。

Anyway, in 2007, he couldn't face it anymore and he escaped.

所以他申请了庇护，去了瑞典，然后到了英国。

So he sought asylum, went to Sweden, and up in England.

他先是在贝尔法斯特的艺术学院学习，之后又去了金史密斯学院。

He studied first of all in Belfast at the school of art there, and then at Goldsmiths.

我第一次接触到他的作品，是在几年前布伦海姆宫的一次展览上。

And I first came across his work, at an exhibition at Blenheim Palace a few years ago.

布伦海姆宫，你知道，是马尔伯勒公爵的府邸，他们是英国历史中著名的战争英雄，也是英国帝国好战故事中的重要人物。

Now Blenheim, as you know, the dukes of Marlborough, big time war heroes of the old British history and major figures in a kind of bellicose stories of the British Empire.

你了解布伦海姆宫吗？

You know about Blenheim Palace?

我确实知道。

I do indeed.

对。

Yes.

第一代马尔伯勒公爵，曾在法国战败。

First Duke of Marlborough, beaten in French.

那是我们当时在欧洲历史上为数不多的拿得出手的事迹之一。

One of the few things we were good at in European history at the time.

是的。

Yep.

正是如此。

Exactly that.

所以，从表面上看，巴格达的穆罕默德·萨米在这里举办展览似乎很不搭调。

So it's on the face of it, an unlikely setting for an exhibition by Mohammed Sami from Baghdad.

对吧？

Right?

但他设法混了进去，把他的画作放在布莱尼姆宫的各个角落。

Except that he kind of inveigled his way in there, and he would put up these paintings of his in various places around Blenheim Palace.

比如壁炉上方、窗帘后面、马尔伯勒公爵肖像旁边，这些画作几乎像偷偷摸摸带进来的，带着些许叛逆的反战信息。

So over the fireplace, behind a curtain, next to a portrait of one of the dukes of Marlborough, and they were smuggled in almost with their naughty little anti war messages.

当我用‘调皮’这个词时，其实用词不当。

And the messaging when I say naughty, that's the wrong adjective.

它们实际上非常有力，他的所有艺术作品都带有强烈的反战意味。

They were they were actually very powerful, And all his art has kind of anti war presence.

他最著名的作品之一叫《宫殿》，描绘了一座被毁坏、被轰炸的建筑，但你只能在远处看到一尊雕像的影子。

And one of his best known images, it's called the palace, and it shows a building that's been ruined, bombed, but you just see the shadow of a statue in the distance.

我们会把这幅作品放到我们的YouTube频道上。

And we'll put it up on on the YouTube channel.

雕像的影子。

Shadow of a statue.

并没有具体展示任何东西，但你就是能感觉到，那尊雕像的影子象征着一种消逝的存在。

And nothing is shown as it were specifically, but you just know that somehow the shadow of the statue represents a kind of fallen presence.

他的许多作品都恰恰关乎你刚才提到的——那些曾经掌权者的身影正在消失。

A lot of his art is about exactly what you were just talking about, the disappearing presence of people who were once in power.

所以远处那尊雕像，指的就是萨达姆·侯赛因。

So the statue in the distance is supposed to be Saddam Hussein.

对吧？

Right?

它本应是萨达姆·侯赛因，但也有些模糊。

It is supposed to be Saddam Hussein, but it's also slightly ambiguous.

他从来不是那种会用箭头指着东西说‘这是萨达姆·侯赛因’的艺术家。

He's never the kind of artist who's who's has a arrow pointing to things saying, this is Saddam Hussein.

但你一看就会觉得那就是他。

But you can't help but look at it and think that's what it is.

当然，它与那些被推倒的萨达姆·侯赛因雕像有着惊人的相似之处。

And, of course, it does bear this powerful similarity to the statues of Saddam Hussein that were all pulled down.

我的意思是，我们都记得当侯赛因最终被推翻时，那种破坏雕像的场景。

I mean, we all remember the iconoclasm when Hussein was finally overthrown and the statues

雕像被推倒了。

were pulled down.

当时事件正在发生，我被邀请上BBC新闻，谈论一位我认为是从伊拉克回来的士兵。

I remember at that time it was happening, I was asked to go on BBC News to talk about someone, I think it was a soldier who bought back from Iraq.

萨达姆·侯赛因雕像的其中一个臀部曾试图在eBay上以十万英镑左右的价格出售。

One of the buttocks of one of the statues of Saddam Hussein was trying to sell it on eBay for, like, you know, £100,000 or something.

BBC想问我是否觉得它值这个价。

And some the BBC wanted to know if I thought it was worth it.

所以我当时说，我觉得不值。

So I said, I don't don't think it was.

但不管怎样，也许现在值了。

But anyway, maybe it is now.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

不。

No.

这可真是够大胆的，不是吗？

Well, that's a very cheeky thing to do, isn't it?

我知道你是这样的。

I know you are.

战争时期会带来许多问题。

Wartime wartime creates many problems.

正如我跟你说过的，他主要通过缺席来表达。

As I said to you, he he speaks mostly through absences.

所以，你知道，那座丢失的萨达姆雕像就隐含在那幅画中。

So, you know, the lost Saddam Hussein statue is implied in that painting.

我最喜欢的是那张桌子，本来打算在特纳奖上谈一谈的。

The one I like, I was gonna talk about at the Turner Prize, and and it's a table.

对吧？

Right?

而且他的艺术往往需要一段时间才能理解，相当模糊。

And it it takes a while to often his art's quite ambiguous.

你不太确定自己看到的是什么，但这实际上是一张桌子的俯视图。

You're not quite sure what you're looking at, But this is actually a sort of top view of a table.

所以你正从上方看着一间房间里的一张桌子，周围有一些椅子，但由于桌子是圆形的，椅子围绕着它，形成了一种抽象的图案，而悬在桌子上方的则是一个黑色的十字架。

So you're looking down on a table in a room with some chairs around it, but it forms a kind of abstract pattern because the table's round, the chairs around, and then hovering over the table is this cross, this black cross.

现在，它可能代表很多东西。

Now it could be lots of things.

它可能只是房间屋顶上的一台电风扇。

It could be just a fan on the roof of the room.

比如，你可能会想，巴格达的人们在房间里用的风扇可能很大，旋转时在桌子上投下阴影。

Like, you think people using a fan in in Baghdad might have a big fan on the top of the room and it's swirling around, costing a shadow on the table.

但它也可能是一架直升机的旋翼，或者一架即将轰炸房间的军用直升机。

But it could also be the blades of a helicopter or something that's approaching, a war helicopter that's about to bomb the room.

他的作品中充满了这种模糊性，但你总能感受到一种威胁感，一种曾经存在、曾经黑暗、曾经无比强大的事物如今已不复存在，但其阴暗氛围却依然留存的感觉。

There is this ambiguity in his work, but what you always get is this sense of threat, this sense of how things that used to be there, that used to be dark, that used to be all powerful just aren't there anymore and yet their darkness survives, the mood survives.

所以，我只是想推荐一下这位艺术家。

So he's just someone I'd like to nominate.

如果我们讨论的是这种权力最终消失的统治者这一概念，我认为我们应该关注穆罕默德·萨米的作品，我必须说，我非常欣赏他的作品，也希望大家都留意他。

If we're gonna be talking about this whole idea of rulers with power that then disappears, I think we should look at the work of Mohammed Sami, which I I have to say I admire a lot, and I I want everybody to keep an eye out for him.

好的。

Okay.

非常有趣。

Very interesting.

我可以稍微转向一个更相关的史实吗？

Can I can I go to a slightly more pertinent historical resonance?

这周有人提到，安德鲁王子是自1647年查理一世以来首位被逮捕的王室成员。

It's been said this week that Prince Andrew was the first member of the royal family to be arrested since King Charles the first back in 1647.

我不确定这个说法是否准确，但它确实给了我一个机会，来谈谈我最喜欢的一幅查理一世的画像。

And I'm not sure whether that's technically correct, but it does give me an opportunity, well, to talk about one of my favorite pictures of King Charles the first.

这是爱德华·鲍耶的肖像。

This is the portrait of Edward Bowie.

这幅画属于王室收藏，描绘了国王在受审时的情景。

It belongs to the royal collection, and it shows the king at his trial.

你知道我指的是哪幅画吗？

Do you know the picture I mean?

我知道。

I do.

那位神情颇为忧伤、戴着一顶高顶礼帽的国王。

The rather sad looking king with a kind of stovepipe hat on.

这与你通常给我看的那些范戴克所绘、骑在高头大马上显得威风凛凛的查理一世画像截然不同。

Very different from the ones that you usually show me of Charles the first looking very mighty sitting on his big horse painted by van Dyck.

嗯，确实如此。

Well, quite indeed.

这正是关键所在。

That is the point.

这幅画与我心目中的英雄安东尼·凡·戴克所绘的查理画像形成了多么鲜明的对比。

Well, what a contrast this picture shows with the pictures of Charles by my hero, Anthony Van Dyke.

因为这幅画，我来为听众们描述一下。

Because this picture, I'll just describe it for listeners.

我们正在看查理一世。

We are looking at Charles the first.

他全身穿着黑色，除了脖子上那条亮蓝色的嘉德勋带，这标志着他作为嘉德勋位领主，他戴着一顶大黑帽子，坐在一个王座上，或者说坐在一张红色天鹅绒椅子上。

He's dressed all in black apart from his bright blue garter ribbon which is around his neck, signifying who he in Lord of the Garter, and he's got a big black hat on, and he's sitting in a throne or he's sitting in a red velvet chair.

这显然不是一个王座，我们看到的是他的半身像。

It's not obviously a throne, and we see him at half length.

这幅画给人一种相当压抑的感觉。

It's quite a claustrophobic picture.

必须立刻说明，爱德华·博阿的画作并非一幅技艺精湛的作品。

Bless Edward Boa, we must say immediately, it's not a brilliantly painted picture.

当然比不上范·戴克那样的杰作。

Certainly not a Van Dyke's devil.

但我认为，这一切恰恰是这幅画的意义所在。

But I think all of this is the point of the painting.

现在我要告诉你，我展示的这幅藏于皇家收藏的特定画作，其创作年代实际上是1648年。

Now I should tell you that the particular example I'm showing you here, while which is in the Royal Collection, is actually dated 1648.

现在，因为在那个年代，人们通常从三月开始计算新年，所以按照现代历法，这幅画创作于1649年。

Now because in those days they used to actually start the year, the calendar year, I think at the in March actually, so in modern times this painting was made in 1649.

但关键在于，这几乎可以证明，这幅画是在查理一世国王受审期间或处决前后绘制的。

But the point is that more or less proves that the picture must have been painted while King Charles the first was actually on trial or around the time of his execution.

因此，我们认为这幅画堪称国王在那个历史性时刻的目击记录。

So we think this is a kind of an eyewitness account of the king at that momentous time.

内战已经结束。

The civil war is over.

他已被逮捕，根据指控他的人的说法，他正因严重的罪行受审，而且即将被砍头。

He's been arrested, and he's now on trial for heinous crimes according to the people who were charging him, but also about to have his head chopped off.

我认为，这种纪实性正是这幅画如此有力的原因。

And I think that element of of reportage is what makes the picture quite so powerful.

而且，它与所有那些画像形成了鲜明对比。

And the fact that it's such a contrast with all those images.

想象一下，如果你是国王。

Imagine if you were the king.

对吧？

Right?

你已经习惯了看到自己被有史以来最伟大的肖像画家之一安东尼·范·戴克描绘，那些姿态展示你骑马驰骋、感觉强大而凯旋的模样，当然，那是一种并不存在的现实。

You're so used to seeing yourself presented by one of the greatest portraits who ever lived, Anthony Van Dyke, and in poses that showed you rampaging around on horseback, feeling strong and triumphant, a reality which did not exist, of course.

但突然间，你就在威斯敏斯特大厅受审，而且突然被——你知道的——不再是伟大的艺术家，而是英国艺术家描绘。

But there you are suddenly, you're on trial in Westminster Hall, and you're being painted suddenly by, you know, not great artists anymore, English artists too.

整件事与之前的情况形成了如此鲜明的对比，我认为这恰恰说明了描绘当权者或王室成员的进程可以多么迅速地突然改变，但正因如此，它们才同样引人入胜。

And the whole thing is such a contrast from what goes before, and it goes to show how quickly, I think, the process of depicting people in power or members of the royal family can suddenly change, but they're no less fascinating for that.

我完全同意这一点。

I agree with all that.

你知道还有一点让我很感兴趣的是，正如你所说，巴巴是一位英国画家。

Do you know what also interests me is that, I mean, Baba was, as you said, an English painter.

而早些时候，查理一世曾被另一位英国画家，我的大英雄威廉·多布森，多次描绘过。

And earlier on, Charles had been painted a lot by another English painter, my big hero, William Dobson.

我们之前已经讨论过很多次这个话题了，对吧？

We've had this conversation many a time, haven't we?

我们讨论多布森和凡·戴克的对比。

Where we go Dobson versus Van Dyke.

但多布森在内战期间为查理一世画像，我认为他所有肖像中的人物都带有一种比凡·戴克笔下更日常的气息。

But Dobson painted Charles the first during the time of the civil war, and always, I think, all his sitters have this slightly more quotidian air to them than Van Dyke ever gave to anybody.

所以凡·戴克每次画人，都会让他们显得优雅、高贵、奢华。

So any time Van Dyke painted anybody, he made them look elegant, classy, sumptuous.

当然，有些画作比其他画作更真实，但你从鲍尔这幅极具感染力的肖像中，绝不会看到这种直白的表达。

I mean, of course, there's more truth in some pictures than in others, but you never get this kind of bluntness that you get from Bauer in this very moving portrayal, really.

我的意思是，单看这幅画，你能认出他是国王吗？

I mean, you wouldn't know he was a king, would you, from looking at it?

除了那条蓝色的嘉德绶带。

Apart from the blue Carter sash.

是的。

Yeah.

但你看他的胡子。

But look at the beard.

你知道，他被画成留着一把老人的灰白胡须。

You know, he's shown in with this old man's gray beard.

你知道那种样子吗？有些人黑发但胡须灰白，如果你是足球迷，就像罗伊·基恩那样。

And you know that look where people have dark hair but a gray beard, sort of the Roy Keane look, if you if you're a football fan.

这已经透出一种特别的悲剧感，我觉得。

There's something particularly tragic about it already, think.

这就像衰老正在逼近，但你还没完全老去。

It's like old age coming on, but you're not quite there yet.

这其中有一种伤感，我认为外国艺术家或许无法传达出这种情感。

There's a poignancy to it that I think a foreign artist perhaps may not have brought to the image.

这仿佛说明英国人难免比那些华丽的佛兰德斯人更诚实一些，但这确实是一幅绝佳的画作。

It's as if the English couldn't help but be that little bit more honest than the flamboyant Flemish or something like that, but it's a wonderful picture.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我不会再次让听众厌烦地去为凡·戴克辩护。

I mean, I'm not going to, bore the listeners anew to death with, trying to defend Van Dyke.

我不想去讨论这个，但我想说的是，他的许多姐妹都抱怨说，实际情况恰恰相反——他们把他画得太胖或太笨拙了。

I don't want to go there, but I would just say that lots of his sisters did complain about the fact that it was quite the opposite, that they showed them too plump or too ungainly.

但无论如何，你提出了一个有趣的观点：凡·戴克被召到英格兰为国王画像，这一定影响了他最初描绘对象的方式。

But anyway but I think that you raise an interesting point that Van Dyke psychologically has been summoned to England in order to paint the king, and that must have colored every his his initial starting point about how he was going to paint his subject.

而像博尔这样的人从未受雇于国王，他完全是临场发挥。

Whereas someone like Boer was never employed by the king and literally finds himself on the spot.

我们知道，这幅肖像的三个版本之一，实际上是国王的反对者委托绘制的。

We know that one of the three versions of this portrait was in fact commissioned by one of the king's opponents.

但不管怎样，我总觉得他身处困境，为我们展现了这一重要时刻的瞬间。

But anyway, it it certainly feels to me like he finds himself on the spot and gives us that glimpse of this extraordinary important moment.

你提到了胡子，我认为这是个非常有趣的细节，因为这里的胡子不仅是灰色的，而且比多布森或凡·戴克笔下查理一世的胡子要浓密得多。

And I think you mentioned the beard, which I think is a fascinating little detail of reportage because you see the beard here is not only gray, but it's much bushier than the beard you see in either the Dobson or the Van Dyke portraits of Charles the first.

这是因为议会拒绝为国王支付日常剃须仆人的费用，而国王又担心有人趁机割喉，干脆拒绝任何人给他剃须。

And that is because parliament had refused to pay for the king to have his normal servant to shave him, and the king worried about someone coming to actually slit his throat, refused to let himself be shaved at all.

所以这就是为什么在审判期间、处决之前，他留着这把浓密的大胡子，而且胡子都变灰了——天哪，那一定是一段极其紧张压抑的时期。

So that's why during the trial before his execution, he has this big bushy beard, which had gone grey here because my goodness, it must have been the most extraordinarily stressful time.

是啊，而且最终要以一种极其戏剧性、骇人听闻的方式结束——国王真的被斩首了。

Oh, and and about to end in the most extraordinarily dramatic, ghastly way of the king actually being beheaded.

所以这是一幅悲伤的画作，而且，以一种反常的方式，我甚至有点庆幸当时有一位本土艺术家在场，记录下了这一刻。因为我认为我们在这里看到的悲伤是真实的，鲍尔可能感受到了某种东西，也许是关于国王的逝去或命运的一种真实情感，而其他人或许无法体会。

So it's a sad picture, and and in a perverse way, I'm kind of glad there was a native artist around to to record this moment because I think some of that sadness that we see here is genuine and that Bauer felt something, perhaps something authentic about the passing of the king or about the king's fate, really, that maybe others wouldn't have felt.

这是一幅、一幅、一幅揪心的画，正如你所说，画技未必精湛，但我想，它充满了情感。

It's a it's a it's a heart tuggy picture, as you say, not necessarily brilliantly painted, but full of emotion, I think.

是的。

Yeah.

关于这幅画和这个故事，还有两个简短的补充说明。

There are two quick postscripts to this picture in this story.

我可以

Can I

在我们继续之前说说吗？

say them before we move on?

当然。

Of course.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

第一个例子就是我们刚才和听众们讨论过的，这幅画现在收藏在皇家收藏馆中，你可能会觉得，查理一世受审的肖像最终出现在这里有点奇怪。

The first is the the example we've been discussing with listeners is in the Royal Collection, which you might think is an odd place for a portrait of Charles the first at his trial to end up.

实际上，它直到上世纪八十年代才进入皇家收藏。

It didn't actually enter the royal collection until I think it was in the nineteen eighties.

当时是由已故的女王母亲购入的。

When it was bought by the late Queen Mother.

她很有幽默感，我认为这是一次相当不错、相当聪明的收购。

Now she had a great sense of humor and I think this was quite a good, quite a clever acquisition.

然后她把它留给了皇家收藏馆。

And then she left it to the royal collection.

所以，你觉得怎么样？

So how about that?

这可不是在位的国王或女王通常会购买的那种画作。

It's not the sort of picture that that a reigning king or queen usually buys.

我希望这不是一位查尔斯给另一位查尔斯传递的信息。

Not not a message from one Charles to another, I hope.

不是的。

No.

另一个后记是，查理一世被斩首后不久，这里的画家爱德华·巴勒斯——他画了所有这些场景——他的遗体被带到温莎城堡，安葬在温莎城堡的圣乔治礼拜堂，与亨利八世国王的坟墓在同一墓穴中。

And the other postscript is that after Charles the first gets his head cut off, not long after the artist here, Edward Burroughs, all the scenes he's painted, he gets taken his body gets taken to Windsor Castle, to the Chapel of Windsor Castle to be buried in the tomb in the same tomb of king Henry the eighth.

你去过温莎的圣乔治礼拜堂，见过那座坟墓吗？

And have you been to Saint George's Chapel in Windsor and seen the tomb?

我去过圣乔治礼拜堂。

I've been to Saint George's Chapel.

我不记得看到过那个墓。

I don't remember seeing the tomb.

啊，关键就在这里。

Ah, now this is the point.

根本就没有墓。

There isn't one.

原来如此。

That'll be why.

嗯，没有。

Well, no.

但这里的讽刺之处在于，它就在同一个——确切地说，是圣乔治教堂地板下与亨利八世国王完全相同的墓穴里。

But the irony here is it's in the same, literally the same tomb underneath the floor of St.

与亨利八世国王同处圣乔治教堂。

George's Chapel as King Henry VIII.

亨利八世，当然，并非被斩首，而是寿终正寝，他曾留下极其非凡的指示，要求建造一座宏伟的陵墓。

Now, Henry VIII, of course, didn't have his head cut off, died in his bed, and he had left the most extraordinary instructions for his glorious tomb to be created.

但这个故事的关键在于，它恰恰表明，在这些王室人物倒台或去世后，一切确实都可能发生翻天覆地的变化。

But the point of the story is that it just shows that after these royal figures fall or they die, literally everything can change dramatically.

所以他的陵墓甚至从未完工。

So his tomb was never even completed.

这就是为什么他和查尔斯除了地板上的一个洞之外，再无其他共享之物。

And that is why he and Charles share nothing more than a hole in the floor.

地板上有个洞。

A hole in the floor.

天啊，这背后有一整本书的故事，对吧？

God, there's a whole book in that, isn't there?

好吧，听着，我要从这个话题转到另一个在某种程度上非常相似的故事，因为它也涉及另一位结局悲惨、被斩首的皇室成员。

Well, listen, I'm gonna move on from that to a very similar story on one level because it's about another royal who ended up in in a terrible way losing their head.

在这个故事里，是她的头，因为我想谈谈玛丽·安托瓦内特，她当然是法国国王路易十六的新娘，并且和他一样，在法国大革命时期死于断头台。

In this case, it was, her head because I want to talk about, Marie Antoinette, who was, of course, the bride of the French king, Louis the sixteenth, and who died as he did under the guillotine at the French Revolution.

关于她有很多画作。

And there are lots of paintings of her.

事实上，伦敦的维多利亚与阿尔伯特博物馆最近举办了一场关于玛丽·安托瓦内特的大型展览。

In fact, there was a big exhibition recently at the Victoria and Albert Museum here in London devoted to Marie Antoinette.

这场展览非常引人入胜，其中展出了一件断头台的部件，据称可能是当年砍下她头颅的那台断头台。

Gripping show, and amongst the things it had in it was a a bit of a guillotine that they said might have been the guillotine that actually cut off her head.

它确实很相似，你知道的。

It was certainly similar, you know.

这真是触及敏感话题了，不是吗？

It's very close to the bone, isn't it?

确实很敏感。

Close to the bone indeed.

我的意思是，是的。

I mean, yeah.

这是一场令人悲伤的展览，但同时也非常引人入胜。

It was a sad exhibition, but also fascinating.

引人入胜，因为玛丽·安托瓦内特的故事承载着许多东西。

Fascinating because there's a lot of things riding on the story of Marie Antoinette.

但我想重点关注的是一幅她的画作，一幅特别的她的肖像画。

But what I want to focus on is a painting of her, a particular painting of her.

有很多很多幅，是由一位名叫伊丽莎白·路易丝·维热·勒布伦的艺术家创作的。

There were many, many, many by an artist called Elizabeth Louise Vigee Lebrun.

你当然知道维热·勒布伦。

Now you know Vigee Lebrun, of course.

我认为，她现在正以一种新的热情受到人们的颂扬。

She's now celebrated with with new enthusiasm, I think.

所以，她当时是皇室肖像画家，显然是一位女性画家，这在当时非常罕见，她为欧洲大部分皇室成员作画，那些显赫的、四处巡游的皇室成员，她画得很好。

So she was a a royal portraitist at the time, obviously a female painter, very rare at the time, and she painted most of the royalty in Europe, the prominent royals who would tour around, paint them, did it very well.

而且她是玛丽·安托瓦内特特别青睐的画家。

And she was a particular favorite of of Marie Antoinette.

我想，在女王遭遇悲惨审判和被斩首之前，她为玛丽·安托瓦内特画了大约30幅肖像，是的，30幅肖像。

She painted, I think, around 30 portraits, yes, 30 portraits of Marie Antoinette before the tragic trial and beheading of the queen.

我想聚焦于其中一幅，它被称为‘王后的亚麻裙’。

I want to focus on one and it's known as the chemise de la reine.

所以这是穿着亚麻裙的玛丽·安托瓦内特。

So it's Marie Antoinette in a chemise.

这是一幅女王的画像。

So it's a picture of the queen.

她穿着一件白色连衣裙，非常朴素的白色长裙。

She's wearing a white dress, very plain white dress.

戴着一顶大草帽，帽上插着羽毛，手里还拿着一朵玫瑰。

Big straw hat and feathers coming out of the hat, and she's holding a rose.

她似乎正在整理一束花。

She seems to have been arranging a a vase of flowers.

她温柔地望着我们，看着这幅画，你会想，这不过是玛丽·安托瓦内特再普通不过的画像了。

And looking at us rather sweetly, you look at it, you think, well, that's a typical enough picture of Marie Antoinette.

没什么特别的。

Nothing special there.

对吧？

Right?

一点皇家园艺。

A little bit of royal horticulture.

真美。

Lovely.

一点皇家园艺。

A little bit of royal horticulture.

但如果你认为这是一幅普通的画像，那就错了，因为这幅画在问世时引发了巨大的风波，常被认为是导致玛丽·安托瓦内特不仅被处决，而且法国大革命爆发的原因之一。

But you'd be wrong to think it's an ordinary picture because this painting actually caused an enormous rumpus when it was produced, and it's often cited as one of the reasons why not just Marie Antoinette ended up getting beheaded, but also why the French Revolution happened.

他们说，这就是这幅画的影响力。

That's the impact of this picture, they say.

这就是它对民众产生的影响。

That's the impact it had on the populace.

那么，为什么它会产生如此强大的影响呢？

Now why did it have such a powerful impact?

这是个大问题，对吧？

That's the big question, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

对一点皇家园艺就做出如此极端的反应，有点过分了。

It's a bit of an extreme reaction to a little royal gardening.

确实如此，但画里画的终究还是衣服。

It is, and it's it's all still clothes.

你知道，衣服造就男人，这一点在我身上尤其成立，因为你知道，我总是衣着得体，但在这个例子中，衣服更关键的是造就了女人。

Now you know clothes maketh the man, certainly true in my case because as you know, I'm always well dressed, but clothes above all maketh the woman in this instance.

所以这幅画名叫《穿衬裙的玛丽·安托瓦内特》。

So the painting is called Marie Antoinette in a chemise.

对吧？

Right?

你知道什么是衬裙吗？

Do you know what a chemise is?

我以为chemise在法语里是衬衫的意思。

I thought chemise was French for shirt.

不完全对。

Not quite.

不对。

No.

不是。

No.

具体来说，衬裙是内衣，所以它其实是一种内衬裙。

Chemise in particular is underwear, so it's a it's a underskirt.

因此，衬裙这个概念，我们甚至可以称之为睡裙。

So chemise is the whole idea of what what we might even call a nightie.

我需要温习一下我的

I need to brush up on my

法语。

French.

在

In

这个例子中，这件连衣裙是以一位骑士命名的。

this instance, it's the dress is named after a knighty.

而且这种连衣裙有着迷人的历史。

And it's got a fascinating history, this kind of dress.

对吧？

Right?

她身上穿的这件白色棉质平纹细布连衣裙。

This white cotton muslin dress that she's wearing.

它最初显然是在加勒比地区出现的。

It began life in the Caribbean apparently.

所以是加勒比地区的法国殖民地，也就是马提尼克岛、瓜德罗普岛这类法国殖民地。

So French colonies in the Caribbean, so that would be, you know, Martinique and Guadalupe, those kinds of French colonies.

当地女性，也就是那些最终来到西印度群岛的法国贵族，开始穿着一种基于当地人服饰风格的连衣裙。

The local women, so the French aristocrats that ended up in the West Indies started to wear dresses that were kind of based on what the locals were wearing.

所以它们是用棉布制成的，质地轻薄，适合炎热天气，这种时尚最终传回了巴黎。

So they were made of cotton, they were light, they were good for the hot weather, and that fashion spread eventually back to Paris.

玛丽·安托瓦内特绝非第一个穿这种白色棉质连衣裙的人，但她无疑是最臭名昭著的一个。

And Marie Antoinette was by no means the first person to wear one of these white cottony dresses, but she was certainly the most notorious.

当这幅画作完成时，它立即引起了轩然大波，主要有两个原因。

And when this picture was painted, it immediately caused an uproar for two main reasons.

你能想象是什么原因吗？

Can you imagine what they are?

一位法国王后不应该在外面晒太阳，享受园艺的乐趣。

That a queen of France shouldn't be out and about in the sun having fun doing some gardening.

她应该，我不知道，在宫殿里处理重要的政务。

She should be, I don't know, in the palaces doing important governance stuff.

不对。

No.

差不多吧。

Sort of.

差不多吧。

Sort of.

那么有两件事。

Two things then.

首先，这件裙子是棉质的，而且那棉花不是进口的。

So one, the the the dress was made of cotton, and that cotton wasn't imported.

最重要的是，这棉花在当时是英国闻名遐迩的东西，你知道的，那些棉纺厂，十八世纪棉纺织业的增长，兰开夏郡的棉花生产。

Above all, it was something that Britain was famous for at the time, you know, the cotton mills, the eighteenth century growth of cotton industry, Lancashire with all its cotton production.

所以这是一件外国服饰，而他们本来就讨厌玛丽·安托瓦内特，因为她是奥地利人，并非法国出身。

So it was a foreigner's dress, and they already hated Marie Antoinette because she was Austrian, like she wasn't French in origin.

所以他们本来就讨厌她。

So they already hated her.

所以她穿着的是一种外国服饰，并非由法国丝绸制成，而人们期望王室成员穿着的正是法国丝绸。

So she was wearing a sort of foreign dress that wasn't made of French silk, which is what people expected their royalty to wear.

因此，当时的其他王室成员都穿着这些非常、非常具有雕塑感的特定丝绸礼服，这些礼服在垂坠方式和工艺上都有其独特的正式语言。

So other royals at the time were wearing these very, very sculpted specific silk dresses which had their own kind of formal language as to how they hung, how crafted they were.

你甚至在今天的法国时尚中也能听到这种说法，不是吗？

You hear it even in French fashion today, don't you?

所有那些关于剪裁、轮廓的说法，你知道的，衣服应该怎么穿成了被极度推崇的议题。

All that stuff about the cut, the shape, you know, that that it's a big fetishized deal about how clothes should be.

但这不是那种风格。

This wasn't that.

这是宽松的。

This was loose.

它只是在腰间系了一条简单的腰带，有着蓬松的袖子，是白色的，没有染色，而且是棉质的。

It had just a simple sash around the waist and had these puffy sleeves, was white, wasn't colored, and was made of cotton.

所以这是一个原因。

So that was one reason.

另一点是，衬裙其实就是睡衣。

And the other thing is that a chemise is a nightie.

她的王后不应该到处穿着睡衣吧，对吧？

Her queen shouldn't be going around in nineties, should they?

而且在这件衣服下面，基本上就是她，你知道的，实际上是的。

And underneath this would basically have been her, you know, the actual Yeah.

赤裸的玛丽·安托瓦内特。

Naked Marie Antoinette.

所以这立即引起了轩然大波。

So this caused an immediate rumpus.

而且当时，有各种各样耸人听闻的虚假文章、报纸和书籍。

And at the time, there were all sorts of scandalous kind of false articles and papers and books.

关于她的细节相当详尽。

Quite detail about her.

是的。

Yeah.

哦，是的。

Oh, were.

确实如此。

There were.

她被指控犯有各种罪名。

She was accused of all sorts of things.

我的意思是，这绝对是法国沙文主义最恶劣的表现。

I mean, was absolutely French jingoism at its worst.

也是最卑鄙的。

And nastiest.

我的意思是，她被指控为性变态、同性恋、向外国势力出卖机密、性行为过度活跃以及背叛国家。

I mean, she was accused of being a sexual pervert, of being a lesbian, of selling secrets to foreign powers, of being sexually overactive, of betraying the nation.

我是说，你能想到的罪名，她都被指控过。

I mean, you name it, she was accused of it.

最重要的是，她被指控为经济堕落，骗取法国人民的钱财，还有那桩著名的王室珠宝丑闻，据说她偷了一大堆钻石，并且挥霍无度。

And above all, she was accused of being financially degenerate, cheating the French people out of their own money, famous notorious scandal involving the royal jewels, which she was said to have stolen a whole bunch of diamonds and used them very loosely.

当时，法国在经济上正经历一段非常困难的时期。

Now at the at the time, France was going through very difficult time, economically.

不仅缺钱，还缺粮食。

There was a shortage of money, but also a shortage of food.

街上的人们真的在挨饿。

People were genuinely hungry in the streets.

我的意思是，大家都知道，玛丽·安托瓦内特最著名的一句话据说就是：‘让他们吃蛋糕吧。’

I mean, you know that the most famous thing Marie Antoinette was was said to have said was, you know, let them eat cake.

你知道那个著名的传闻吗？当人们告诉她‘人们该吃什么’时。

You know that notorious story when they said to her, what shall the people eat?

她回答说：‘让他们吃蛋糕吧。’

She said, let them eat cake.

但实际上，她说的是‘让他们吃奶油面包’，因为法国人吃的是奶油面包，而不是蛋糕。

Well, in fact, she said, let them eat brioche, because, of course, French eat brioche, not cakes.

但这句话很可能是后人杜撰的。

But it's probably apocryphal.

我怀疑她是否真的说过这话，但所有这些事情都被用来指责她，是的。

I doubt whether she actually said it, but it was all all these things were held against her Yeah.

她的声誉被玷污，形象被彻底败坏。

And she was besmirched and her reputation blackened.

而这幅画在其中发挥了重要作用。

And this painting played this significant role in in that.

因此，在接下来的几年里，她的处境每况愈下。

And so over the next few years, things got worse and worse and worse for her.

这些传闻越来越多。

The stories increased.

谣言不断扩散，最终她确实被逮捕，并被法国革命者处决。

The rumors spread until eventually, yes, she was she was taken, arrested, and and beheaded by the French revolutionaries.

这一切都极其、极其、极其悲惨。

All very, very, very, very tragic.

顺便说一句，这幅画本身引发了巨大丑闻，最终被替换了。

The painting itself, by the way, caused such a scandal that it was replaced.

所以当它于1783年在卢浮宫展出时，人们对此深感震惊，于是他们找来维吉莉亚·布兰德的另一幅画取而代之。

So when it went on show at the Louvre in 1783, people were so appalled by it that they got another painting by Vigilia Brand and put that in in its place.

就像我们现在在卢浮宫看到的那幅安德鲁·蒙巴顿-温莎的肖像一样，那是有人偷偷换进去的。

So just as we've got, that portrait that I mentioned earlier of Andrew Mountbatten Windsor hanging in the Louvre now, that somebody sneakily sneaked in.

所以有一段时间，玛丽·安托瓦内特的画像挂在那里，后来被撤下，换成了另一幅她穿着正式法式礼服的画像。

So at one point, the Marie Antoinette was hanging there, then it was removed and replaced by another one where she is wearing the formal French dress.

我们会上传

We'll put up

是的。

a Yeah.

我们也会在YouTube频道上放上那幅画。

Picture of that as well on our YouTube channel.

正如你所说，还有其他版本，她穿着不同的服装。

As you say, there's other versions of it where she's wearing different costume.

对。

Yeah.

她穿着正式的法式礼服。

She's wearing the formal French dress.

她穿着丝绸。

She's wearing the silk.

她戴着一顶合适的帽子。

She's wearing the proper sort of hat.

她的头发，在另一幅画中是披散着的，显得清新自然，因为她想扮演一个乡村女孩的角色。

Her hair, which in the other painting, her hair is hanging loose and fresh because she's trying to be a kind of country girl.

你知道那些关于小特里亚农宫和她在凡尔赛建造的假村庄的著名故事吗？在那里，她可以假装自己是个乡村女孩四处闲逛。

You know these famous stories about the petite treason and the fake village that she built in Versailles where she could swan around pretending to be a country girl.

这种让上流社会人士假装成朴素农民、享受简朴生活的行为，在欧洲曾是一种流行风尚。

That was a European wide fashion for posh people to behave like like simple peasants and enjoy life on a simple basis.

她假装做了这一切，而那幅画也被视为这一虚构行为故事的一部分，这种行为也被视为对真实乡村生活的冒犯。

She pretended to do all that, and that picture was also seen as part of that storyline about this mock behavior, which was also seen as a kind of insult to genuine rural life.

所以，她的另一幅画像则完全相反。

So the the alternative picture of her has her the opposite of that.

她穿着这件蓝色的丝绸长裙。

So she's wearing this blue silk dress.

她非常高贵优雅。

She's very posh.

她脸上扑了粉，头发也扑了粉，戴着精心制作的帽子，穿着精心制作的礼服，这样稍微好一些。

She's got powdered face, powdered hair, constructed hat, constructed dress, and that went down a bit better.

但损害已经造成了。

But the damage had been done.

这件事还有个后续。

And there's a postscript to this.

对吧？

Right?

所以这幅画，不仅被称为导致玛丽·安托瓦内特垮台并被斩首的画作，还被指控是加速了国际奴隶贸易的画作。

So this painting, not only is it called the painting that led to the downfall and the beheading of, Marie Antoinette, but it's also accused of being the painting that turbocharged the international slave trade.

现在你知道这是为什么吗？

Now you know why that is?

因为这种对棉质连衣裙、简单棉质连衣裙的时尚风潮，被认为已经超出了当时可用的棉花实际供应量——这些棉花最初来自印度，棉花在那里被开发、种植并织成印度布料。

Because this fashion for cotton dresses, for simple cotton dresses, was seen to have outstripped the actual supply of cotton that was available at the time from originally from India, where cotton was sort of developed and and grown woven into Indian fabrics.

因此，当英国人发明了各种棉花纺织机器时，比如你知道的珍妮纺纱机等等，这些让生产更快的机器。

And so it when the British invented their various cotton weaving machines, you know, like the, you know, the spinning Jenny and all those things, things that made things quicker.

他们需要更多的棉花供应，而从印度无法获取足够的棉花，于是他们开始在加勒比海地区种植，当然也在美洲种植，并开始从非洲进口奴隶来经营棉花田，供应棉花，在棉田里劳作。

They needed more supply of cotton, and they couldn't get enough cotton from India, so they started to grow it in the West Indies, but also, of course, in America, and started to import slaves from Africa to run the cotton fields, to supply the cotton, to work the cotton fields.

因此，这幅画被指控的罪责之一，就是在奴隶贸易扩张中扮演了角色。

And so amongst the sins that this picture is accused of is of playing a role in the expansion of the slave trade.

所以，不管你对它还有什么别的看法，我的意思是，这幅画的影响力真是惊人，不是吗？

So I mean, whatever else you think about it, I mean, it's a hell of a potent picture, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

说实话，我觉得这有点牵强。

Think that's a bit of a stretch, to be honest.

一幅维热·勒布伦的画作，我们就能把奴隶贸易归咎于它。

One painting by Viger Lebron, that we can pin the slave trade on that.

我认为对糖、棉花等物品的需求，至少与这样一幅令人震惊的画作的存在是并行的。

I think the demand for sugar and cotton and all these things probably ran parallel, at least, to the existence of such a shocking painting.

但不管怎样，这些都是我们可以继续用来指责可怜的玛丽·安托瓦内特的事情，不是吗？

But anyway, it's all something that we can continue to chuck at poor old Marie Antoinette, isn't it?

是的。

Is.

我的意思是，当然，它当然不是单独对任何事情负责的。

And I mean, of course, of course, it wasn't really single handedly responsible for anything.

但它是一个因素。

But it was a factor.

它起到了作用。

It played a role.

你知道，艺术有时确实在人类历史中扮演着强大的角色，不是吗？

And it it you know, art does play powerful roles sometimes, doesn't it, in the story of humans.

所以，就是这样。

So there you go.

你现在要转到什么话题？

What what are you moving on to now?

够了，别再提玛丽·安托瓦内特了。

That's enough enough Marie Antoinette.

好吧，我们要回到

Well, we're gonna go back

过去。

in time.

好吧，我们要回到公元二世纪，那是一件物品，我认为它根本算不上伟大的艺术作品，但它确实揭示了我们一直在讨论的整个持续过程。

Well, we're gonna go back in time to the second century AD, and it's just an object which is, I don't think at all, a great work of art, but it does reveal this whole ongoing process that we've been discussing.

特别是，我现在要用它的拉丁语名称，即‘记忆抹杀’。

And in particular, I'm going to use the Latin word for it now, which is damnatio memoriae.

虽然我要谈论的是一幅名为《塞维鲁肖像》的画作，这是一幅用蛋彩颜料绘制的木板画，画得并不精美，现藏于柏林阿尔塔斯博物馆，是一幅群像画。

And while I'm gonna talk about a picture which is called the Severantondo, it's a wooden panel painted not very beautifully in a kind of egg tempera pigment, and it's in the Altus Museum in Berlin, and it's a group portrait.

对吧？

Right?

它描绘了一对男女，一对夫妻，以及他们面前的两个孩子。

So it shows a man and woman, a husband and wife, and before them two children.

它被称为《塞维鲁肖像》，因为背景中的男子是罗马皇帝塞普蒂米乌斯·塞维鲁，他在公元193年1月到211年2月11日期间统治罗马帝国。

And it's called the Severantondo because the man in the background is the Roman emperor world, Septimius Severus, and he ruled the Roman Empire between January and 02/11.

所以，画中他与妻子茱莉亚·多姆娜以及他们身前的两个孩子一同出现。

And so he's there in the picture with his wife, Julia Domna, and their two children before them.

一个叫卡拉卡拉，就是右边那个，另一个叫盖塔。

One is called Caracalla, who's the one on the right, and the other one is called Geta.

现在你会注意到，嗯，盖塔没有脸。

Now you'll notice, well, that Geta doesn't have a face.

所以他脸上只是一片略显棕色的空白。

So he's just got a sort of blank void which is slightly brown.

你能看到吗？

Can you see that?

是的，他被涂改了，就像爱泼斯坦文件里的内容一样。

Yes, he's been redacted like something from the Epstein papers.

对，他确实被涂改了，毫无疑问。

Yeah, he's been he's been redacted, absolutely.

而这正是指那个过程。

And this refers to the process.

罗马人当时并不这么称呼它。

The Romans didn't call it this.

我们后来才这样称呼，但它指的是‘记忆谴责’这一过程，字面意思就是记忆的谴责。

We've called it this subsequently, but it refers to the process of damnatio memoria, which literally condemnation of memory.

这是罗马人的一种做法，如果你失势了，或者你是皇帝却被赶下台，他们不会只是忘记你然后继续前进。

And this was the Roman practice that if you fell from grace or if you were the emperor and you got kicked out of power, they didn't just forget about you and move on.

他们会采取积极措施，全面抹去关于你的任何记录。

They took active measures to comprehensively erase any kind of record of you.

所以石碑被推倒，钱币，如果能收回钱币并熔化掉，把你的头像从上面抹去，他们就会这么做，这种做法也延伸到了肖像画上。

So tablets were taken down, the coins, if they could bring in the coins and melt them down and take your head off those, they would, and that extended to portraits.

因此，有时你会看到罗马皇帝的半身像，它们是用那些被‘取消’的早期皇帝半身像重新雕刻而成的。

So sometimes, for example, you see busts of Roman emperors which have been recarved out of the busts of earlier examples who were cancelled, so to speak.

所以像尼禄这样的人，有时你会在后来罗马皇帝的半身像上看到尼禄发型的模糊残留痕迹。

So people like Nero, sometimes you see the the shadowy remains of Nero's hairstyle on busts of of later Roman emperors.

而这幅塞维鲁家族的画作，正是这一过程的例证，因为皇帝塞普蒂米乌斯·塞维鲁——顺便提一下，他曾到过不列颠。

And this picture, the Severantondo, is an example of that process because the emperor Septimius Severus, who incidentally, well, came to Britain.

你知道吗？

Did you know that?

他是唯一一位来到苏格兰的罗马皇帝。

He's the only one, the only Roman Emperor to have come to Scotland.

真的吗？

Really?

哈德良不是来过苏格兰吗？

Didn't Hadrian come to Scotland?

我认为哈德良并没有深入到苏格兰那么远，肯定没有塞普蒂米乌斯·塞维鲁那么深入。

I don't think Hadrian got as far into Scotland, certainly not as far into Scotland as Septimius Severus.

但塞普蒂米乌斯·塞维鲁曾试图征服喀里多尼亚，而你知道，我们这里的人坚韧顽强，把他赶走了。

But Septimius Severus tried to conquer the Caledonia, and as you know, we are tough and hardy types up here, and we saw him off.

但当他在这里时，他带着两个儿子，也就是画像中的盖塔和卡拉卡拉。

But when he was here, he had his two sons with him, who are in the picture, Geta and Caracalla.

他在战役结束后不久就去世了。

And he died not long after the campaign.

他死在约克，他的遗愿是让他的两个儿子作为共治皇帝继承他。

He died in York, and his wish was that his two sons would succeed him as joint emperors.

而不可避免的是，这个过程并没有成功。

And inevitably, this process didn't work out.

它持续了大约两年。

It lasted about two years.

他们的母亲尤利亚·多姆娜试图维持局面，但当他们俩在经历了许多争吵后回到罗马，最终，卡拉卡拉谋杀了盖塔。

The mother, Julia Domna, tried to keep things together, but when the two of them got back to Rome after lots of argy bargy, eventually, Coracula has Geta murdered.

然后他颁布了这项法令，实际上就是这种'记忆抹杀'。

And then he issues this, effectively, this damnatio memoriae.

命令传出去，要求销毁所有与歌德相关的图像和记载，彻底抹去他的存在。

And word goes out to take all images and reference to Goethe and completely obliterate them.

事实上，曾有一段时间，如果你提到歌德的名字，那是会被处以死刑的。

In fact, for a time, if you said Goethe's name, that was punishable by death.

而柏林博物馆里的这个塞维鲁半身像，正是这一过程的例证。

And the idea is that this Severantondo in the museum in Berlin is an example of just such a process.

所以他的头，即格塔的头像已被抹去，而它呈现棕色的原因是，研究者推断它实际上还被覆盖了粪便。

So his head, Geta's head has been erased and the reason it's brown well is that they have deduced that it's actually been also covered in excrement.

所以这应该展示了这一过程，而且确实相当骇人听闻。

So that is supposed to show this process, and quite grisly it is too.

多么可怕啊。

How ghastly.

是的。

Yeah.

我第一次看到它时，它让我想起了那些埃及罗马肖像，也就是法尤姆肖像。

I when I first saw it, it reminded me of, those Egyptian Roman portraits, the Fayum portraits.

它们通常出现在棺材上，对吧？

You find them on coffins, don't you?

这些肖像惊人地写实，真实地再现了人物的面部特征。

And these surprisingly realistic, really, representations of people's faces.

是的。

Yeah.

不过，是的，我刚才还在想这抹除的痕迹到底是什么。

But, yeah, I was wondering what the obliteration was.

当然，我之所以对塞普蒂米乌斯·塞维鲁有所了解，完全是因为那座宏伟的拱门，对吧？

Of course, I the only reason I know anything about Septimus Severus at all is there's a great arch, isn't there?

就是罗马广场上那座塞普蒂米乌斯·塞维鲁的宏伟凯旋门。

The great triumphal arch of Septimus Severus in the Forum in Rome.

所以当你去罗马广场时，正前方看到的那座大拱门就是塞普蒂米乌斯·塞维鲁拱门，没错吧？

So when you go to the Forum in Rome, the big arch that you see right in front of you is the Arch Of Septimus Severus, isn't it?

还有卡拉卡拉浴场，它们也还在那里。

And then there's the the Baths Of Caracalla, they're also there.

所以他们的建筑留存了下来，即使他们的名字已被抹去。

So their architecture remains even if their names have been scratched out.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你提到了埃及法尤姆肖像，我想这可能就是为什么这个塞维鲁像据说是在埃及绘制的原因。

You mentioned the Egyptian faeum portraits and I thought that is one of the reasons this Severantondo is supposed to have been painted in Egypt.

但我必须承认，每当我看到这个作品，研究他的故事时，都只在二十世纪初才出现这张画像。

But I have to confess well, every time I see this and I look at his story, it only turns up this picture in the early twentieth century.

我不禁怀疑，不知道你是否也这么想，它会不会类似于某个德国的肖恩·格林豪特，为二十世纪热衷于收藏古物的德国人大量制作仿古品。

And I do wonder, I don't know if you do, I do wonder if it might be the equivalent of some German Sean Greenhout who was knocking things out for the the eager antiquity collecting Germans in the twentieth century.

或者也许就是肖恩本人。

Or maybe Sean himself.

我其实明天要在佩克汉姆的一场特别讲座上见到他。

I'm actually I'm talking to him tomorrow at a special talk in Peckham.

所以我会问他是不是他画的。

So I'll ask him if he did that.

我知道他创作过很多罗马题材的作品。

I know he's he's done a lot of Roman stuff.

他热爱罗马雕塑。

He loves he loves Roman sculpture.

他花了多年时间雕刻一尊尤利乌斯·凯撒的胸像，使用的材料是帝国紫晶石。

He worked for years and years on a bust of Julius Caesar, which was carved out of imperial porphyry.

这是世界上硬度最高的石头。

So it's the hardest stone in the world.

天啊。

God.

但他始终没能完成，结果雕像被弄坏了。

And he never quite finished it, so it got broken.

当然，尤利乌斯·凯撒自己也被抹去了，不是吗？

But of course, Julius Caesar was eradicated too, wasn't he?

他遭遇了布鲁图斯他们那一伙人。

He met too Brute and all that.

罗马世界真是个残酷的世界。

It was a tough world, the Roman world.

是的。

Yeah.

尤其糟糕的是被‘取消’并抹去记忆，因为在罗马时代，这是获取权力的关键部分。

Particularly bad to be cancelled and have your memory erased because that was such a key part of the of getting power in the Roman age.

这种传统始于那里，即拥有一系列前任的历史肖像，你会说，看，我是这条线上的下一位，因此我有资格统治。

The tradition begins there of having a sequence of historical portraits of your predecessors, you would say, look, I'm the next one into the line, therefore, I am fit to rule.

当然，这已成为皇家肖像画的基石之一，并延续至今。

That, of course, has become one of the foundation stones of royal portraiture which consists to this day.

你让人为你画肖像，是因为你想将自己置于那些有权势的前辈序列之中，并宣称你在他们中间的地位。

You have your portrait painted because you want to show yourself in the sequence of your powerful predecessors and to claim your place amongst them.

你完全可以想象得到，不是吗？

You could just imagine, can't you?

比如说，你有一张我们现任英国王室的全家福。

Let's say you've got a photo of our present British royal family.

就是那种他们在白金汉宫阳台上拍的全家合影。

One of those pictures of them all on the balcony outside Buckingham Palace.

照片里有国王、王后、威廉王子、凯特，而他们旁边就是那位我们不再提及名字的王室成员。

And you've got the king, and you've got the queen, and you've got prince William, and you've got Kate, and then next to them is the royal whose name we don't mention anymore.

你能想象到那张照片被刮掉的样子吗？

You could just imagine how that that could be scratched out, couldn't you?

他可能以类似的方式被彻底抹去。

How he could be eradicated in much the same way.

我的意思是，某种程度上，我们正在目睹的正是这样一个过程，对吧？

I mean, in a way, it's the process that we're watching at the moment, isn't it?

在很多方面，这并没有太大不同。

In many ways, it's not that different.

是的。

Yeah.

斯大林非常热衷于这种做法，不是吗？

Stalin was very keen on that, wasn't he?

你见过很多列宁时期政治局成员的照片，他们后来都消失了。

You see all sorts of photos of people from the Politburo disappearing in Lenin.

有一件事，对。

One thing Yeah.

到

To the

被从所有苏联和大型会议的照片中抹去了。

was airbrushed out of all the pictures of the Soviets and the big meetings.

我的意思是，当一个王室成员、掌权者、独裁者或暴君，确实是个麻烦。

I mean, is a trouble being a royal or a person in power or a dictator or a despot.

你知道，总有一天你可能不再存在，或者被彻底抹去。

You know, the time may come when you don't exist anymore or you've been scratched out.

嗯，我可以

Well, I've can

我怎么从这一点继续下去？

I move on from that?

我的意思是，我要谈谈我最喜欢的一位画家，他是法国前印象派画家爱德华·马奈。

I mean, I'm gonna talk about one of my favorite painters, who is the French proto impressionist, Edouard Manet.

你知道，在国家美术馆里，现在有一个展厅专门展示印象派之前的那段时期。

And I don't you know, in the National Gallery, you know, there is a room now devoted to sort of the period just before the impressionists.

这是一幅曼奈的碎片化杰作，描绘了一些人朝某个目标开枪，右边还有一个人正在装弹，但所有这些人像都被裁掉了。

And there is this fantastic fragmentary painting by Manet picture of some people firing their guns at something, and there's another guy loading a gun on the right, but they've all been cut out.

所以这显然是原本更大一幅画的残余部分，现在这些碎片都被粘在了同一块画布上。

So it's obviously the remains of a much bigger picture, which is now shown, in all these bits stuck on one canvas.

你知道我说的是哪一幅吗？

Do know the one I mean?

我确实知道。

I do indeed.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

这幅画叫做《处决马克西米连一世》。

So it's called the execution of Maximilian the first.

有趣的是，我们如今看到的这些残片，都是由法国伟大画家德加保存下来的。

Interestingly, the actual bits that we see were all preserved by the great French painter Degas.

德加在过去某个时候发现了这些碎片，意识到它们都属于同一幅画，于是将它们拼凑起来，最终以这种形式被国家美术馆收藏。我第一次看到它时，它们仍然是以碎片形式展示的。

Degas came across the bits at some point in the past, recognised that they all fitted one picture and put them together and only eventually in this form was it acquired by the National Gallery, which when I first saw it, they still showed it in bits.

所以这幅画大概有三块碎片，但现在它们按照德加的意图重新拼合在一起并展出。

So there's like three bits of the painting, but now they put it back together again as Degas intended and it's on show.

这就是马奈那幅著名画作《马克西米利安一世处决》的碎片化存在。

And it's the fragmentary presence of this famous painting by Manet called the execution of Maximilian the first.

就像你之前提到的那些画作一样，它以多种形式存在，就像爱德华·鲍尔的画作那样。

Like the paintings you were talking about earlier, it exists in various forms like the pictures of Edward Bauer.

这幅画有四五个版本。

There's four or five versions of this.

最著名的一幅在德国的曼海姆，通常被认为是完成版。

The most famous is in Germany and Mannheim, which is often thought to be the finished version.

画面描绘的是一群穿着法国军装的士兵，深蓝色制服，戴着蓝色小帽，上面有红色线条，这是一个行刑队。

What it shows, right, is a bunch of soldiers in French military uniforms, so dark blue with little blue hats and red lines in them, and it's a firing squad.

他们正对着站在一堵光秃秃墙壁前的三个人影开枪。

And they're firing away to these three figures standing in front of them in front of a bare wall.

距离并不远，因为我们通常认为行刑队会站在离人20英尺远的地方。

Not very far away because we think of firing squads as standing 20 feet away from people.

不对。

No.

他们只有几英尺的距离，所以不可能打不中。

They're they're a couple of feet, so they can't miss.

近得令人难以置信。

Incredibly close.

给人一种非常压抑的感觉。

Very claustrophobic feel.

他们正在射击这三个人，中间那个戴着一顶宽边帽。

Shooting these three figures, one of whom's wearing a sombrero, the guy in the middle.

在最右边，还有一个人物稍微脱离了主要的行刑队，他似乎在给枪装弹或修理枪支，脸更多地朝向我们，所以我们能看到他更多的面部。

And on the far right, there's another figure slightly detached from the main firing squad, and he seems to be loading his gun or fixing his gun or something, looking a bit more towards us so we see much more of his face.

因为行刑队令人毛骨悚然的一点是，他们都背对着我们。

Because the creepy thing about the firing squad is they're all turned away from us.

我们不知道他们是谁。

We don't know who they are.

这幅画描绘的是法国在墨西哥扶植的傀儡皇帝马克西米连一世的处决场景。

What this represents is the execution of a puppet emperor installed by the French, in Mexico called Maximilian the first.

他原本是奥地利人，但被法国新皇帝拿破仑三世选中，并任命为墨西哥政府首脑。

Now he was originally Austrian, but he was picked up by Napoleon the third, the new emperor of France, and installed in Mexico as head of the government.

起初，马克西米连一世并不太愿意出任墨西哥新皇帝，但他最终还是同意了。

And, originally, Maximilian the first wasn't that keen to be installed as the new emperor of Mexico, but he agreed to do it.

于是他前往墨西哥。

So he went out

那里。

there.

十九世纪时，这种做法很常见。

They used to do that a lot in the nineteenth century.

他们常常会邀请，或者某个国家会随意邀请一个与该国毫无关联的人来担任君主。

They would invite or countries would have a randomly invite someone to be their monarch, even though that person never came from the country at all.

我认为希腊人对这种做法相当热衷。

The Greeks were quite keen on this practice, I think.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，你知道的，你是历史学家，所以你对这方面的了解远比我多，但这确实是件非同寻常的事，基本上就是强加一个外国统治者给可怜的老墨西哥人。

Well, you know, you know, you're a historian, so you know far more about this than I do, but it is an extraordinary thing to do, to basically inflict a foreign ruler on the poor old Mexicans.

我们正好有个合适的人选给你。

We've got just a fellow for you.

他是奥地利人。

He's Austrian.

但由于拿破仑的关系，最初他被派往那里时，受到了墨西哥保守派的欢迎，他们欣赏他所代表的立场。

But because of the Napoleonic connections, originally, when when he was sent over there, he was welcomed by the Mexican, conservatives who liked what he seemed to stand for.

然而，他最终表现得相当开明。

But, he turned out to be quite liberal.

所以他做了各种各样的事情，他在劳动法方面做得相当不错，并且做了不少在墨西哥历史上被认为是有益的事情。

So he did all sorts of he was quite good about, the labor laws, and he did quite a few things that have gone down in in Mexican history as being useful.

比如，他修建了那条主干道，那条壮观的改革大道，贯穿墨西哥城，至今仍然存在。

He for example, he built that main road, that wonderful main road, the reformer, goes down through Mexico City, which is still there today.

他这么做有点像是在模仿巴黎风格的城市规划，给墨西哥城带来了那种巴黎式的细节。

That was him kind of doing a a houseman like plan, the sort of Parisian detail, if you like, to Mexico City.

所以他确实很有用，但当然，他不是墨西哥人。

So he was quite useful, but of course, he wasn't Mexican.

当墨西哥独立力量集结并壮大起来时，墨西哥革命领袖胡亚雷斯与马克西米连一世开战，很快便击败了他，将他俘虏并关进监狱。

When the forces of Mexican independence rallied, and grew in force, and Juarez, the the the Mexican revolutionary leader, went to war with Maximilian the first and, of course, immediately kind of beat him and caught him and and put him in prison.

他被行刑队枪决，这正是我们在这里看到的场景。

And he was shot by this firing squad, which is what we're watching here.

他两侧各站着一名将军，三人都被迅速而残酷地处决。

He's got two of his generals, one on either side, and they're all being dispatched with very brutally, very quickly.

现在，这里有许多有趣的地方。

Now, there's so much here that's interesting.

对吧？

Right?

首先，马奈到底为什么要画这个？

First of all, what the hell's Manet doing painting this?

我的意思是，他不知为何坐在巴黎，想象着墨西哥城正在发生的事。

I mean, he's he's sitting there in Paris for some reason imagining what's going on in Mexico City.

原因是马奈也是一位热忱的共和主义者，他画这幅画基本上是为了攻击拿破仑三世，也就是策划了这一切的法国皇帝。

The reason is that Manet was a fervent republican as well, and he's basically painted this as an attack on Napoleon the third, on the French emperor who had organized all this.

事情是这样的，拿破仑三世把可怜的老马克西米利安派到墨西哥去当新统治者后，却背弃了他，在美国人施加了一些压力时撤回了所有法国支持。

And what happened was that Napoleon the third, having sent poor old Maximilian to Mexico to become the new ruler there, turned his back on him, withdrew all the French support when the Americans put some pressure on him.

这发生在门罗主义之前，但当时已有一种观念认为美洲属于美洲人，因此欧洲人无权涉足。

Now this was pre the Monroe Doctrine, but already we've got this idea that America belongs to the Americas, and therefore if you're European, that you've got no business being there.

因此，美洲各国撤回了对马克西米利安一世的支持。

So the Americas withdrew their support of Maximilian the first.

拿破仑三世也做了同样的事，而马奈将此视为背叛。

Napoleon the third did the same, and Manet saw this as a betrayal.

他认为这是拿破仑三世对可怜的老马克西米利安的背叛。

He saw this as a betrayal by Napoleon the third of the poor old Maximilian.