第五季第6集：抢劫、派对与裸照

它们以前是分散摆放的。

They used to be sort of scattered about.

但你知道我最喜欢的那一幅卡拉瓦乔作品吗？

But do you know the Caravaggio I love there?

你知道那幅更早的玛利亚·玛达肋纳的画吗？

The do you know the earlier one of Mary Magdalene?

哦，知道。

Oh, yeah.

真美。

Beautiful.

是啊。

Yeah.

你看，这幅画特别有趣，因为我曾经拍过一部关于它的短片，因为我觉得它暗示了她的怀孕。

You see, that's so interesting, that painting, because I did a little film about it once because I think it it implies her pregnancy.

所以他坐在一把非常低的椅子上，角度特别矮。

So he's sitting on a very, very low chair, this really squat angle.

我一直在思考这个问题。

I was pondering this.

为什么有人会坐在这么奇怪的椅子上，摆出这么奇怪的姿势？

Why would somebody be sitting in that weird chair at such a weird angle?

我一直在看，仔细看，反复看。

And I was looking, looking, looking, looking.

有一天，偶然地——事实上是在罗马的一家博物馆里，我看到了一种产椅，接生用的椅子。

And one day, by accident, a in fact, in a Roman museum, I came upon a a birth chair, a birthing chair.

过去，人们使用这种特别低的椅子，让女性在分娩时坐着。

And what they used to have was these incredibly low chairs that women would sit on when they were having babies.

它们之所以这么低，是因为这样婴儿就不会从高处掉下来，我想。

And they were so low because then the baby wouldn't have farted drop, I guess.

但显然，这就是卡拉瓦乔所指的那类椅子。

But it was obviously that, I think, which Caravaggio was referring to.

因此，这种认为马利亚·玛达莱娜确实是耶稣的情人并为他生下孩子的异端观点，我认为就蕴含在这幅画中。

So this this heretical idea that Mary Magdalene really was the lover of Jesus and really had a baby by him is something that I think that is being carried in that painting.

真美。

It's lovely.

另外，听好了。

Also, listen.

本迪，你一直沉浸在罗马多层次的历史中，度过了非常愉快的时光。

You've had a fantastic time, Bendi, dealing with Rome's multilayered history.

因为罗马的精彩之处在于，你既能看到古罗马时期，又能看到文艺复兴、中世纪，还有卓越的拜占庭艺术。

Because what's great about it is you get the Romans, you've got the Renaissance, you've got medieval stuff, you've brilliant Byzantine stuff.

因此，你可以探索众多不同时代的文化。

So there's lots of eras in which you can explore things.

但罗马缺少的——不过我想你找到了另一个来源——当然是都铎时期的绘画艺术。

What it's missing, but I think you found another source for it, what it's missing is, of course, Tudor art.

对吧？

Right?

采访。

The interview.

是的。

Yeah.

在圣彼得大教堂本身，就有一个关于都铎王朝对欧洲信仰与艺术影响的动人小细节。

There is a lovely little reminder of the Tudor impact on European faith and art in Saint Peter's itself.

你知道贝尔尼尼那个著名的教皇纪念碑吗？是哪一位教皇？

Do you know the great Bernini monument of is it one of the popes?

是亚历山大四世还是五世？我想是后者吧？

Is it Alexander the fourth or the fifth, I think?

不管怎样，贝尔尼尼有一座宏伟的雕塑，其中代表‘真理’的女性形象，脚踩着地球，而从不列颠岛上升起的，是一个微小的荆棘，她正是真理脚下的那根刺。

Anyway, there's a great Bernini sculptor, and one of the figures, the figure of truth carved by Bernini, has her foot on the globe, and arising out of the island of Britain is a tiny little thorn, and she's the thorn in the foot of truth.

作为一位对宗教改革给我国艺术造成可怕破坏感到震惊的人，这对我来说，是亨利八世宗教改革遗产的绝佳提醒。

And that, to me, as someone who is shocked by the terrible impact that the Reformation had on art in this country, is a brilliant reminder of the legacy of Henry VIII's Reformation.

但无论如何，我绕了这么大一圈，其实是想介绍我的一位朋友——克里斯蒂娜·法拉第，一位顶尖的艺术史学家，她写了一本精彩的好书，名为《都铎艺术的故事》。

But anyway, well, this is a long winded way of me introducing a friend of mine called Christina Faraday, a leading art historian, has produced a wonderful book called The Story of Tudor Art.

我现在正把它举到镜头前，如果有人在YouTube上看这个视频的话。

I'm holding it up to the camera now if anyone's watching this on YouTube.

我觉得请她谈谈她的观点会很好，所以我们邀请她来做播客访谈。

And I thought it would be good to get her views, so we summoned her for an interview on the podcast.

我一开始问她，都铎艺术到底好不好。

And well, I began by asking her if Tudor art was actually any good.

有些是好的，我觉得。

Some of it is, I think.

我认为它可能比历史学家们所认为的要好一些，但很多确实很糟糕。

I think it's better than its reputation maybe has allowed historians to think, but a lot of it is terrible.

老实说，这正是我喜欢它的原因。

And to be honest, that's why I love it.

我认为，如果你习惯了欣赏意大利文艺复兴艺术，比如米开朗基罗和拉斐尔的作品，都铎艺术看起来完全不像那些，但其实很多意大利艺术也不是那样的。

I think it does not look like anything you're expecting in if you're used to looking at Italian Renaissance art you're used to Michelangelo Raphael it's it's not like that but then so is you know a lot of Italian art isn't like that either.

我觉得它自成一体，很多作品看起来非常怪异，我觉得这太棒了。

I think it's its own thing and a lot of it is very strange looking and I think that's fantastic.

是的，我认为这种独特性正是都铎艺术如此迷人之处。

Yes, I think that distinctiveness is what makes Tudor art so charming.

是的。

Yes.

而我们如何达到这种独特性的过程非常有趣，你在书中以一种前所未有的方式精彩地剖析了这一点。

And the process of how we get to that distinctiveness is really interesting in which you unpack so marvelously in your book in a way that no one's ever done before.

这简直太棒了。

It's absolutely fantastic.

但也许最好的方式是按每位君主逐一展开。

But should we just Perhaps the best way to do it is to roll through it monarch by monarch.

我们这样做好吗？

Should we do that?

当然。

Sure.

是的，绝对如此。

Yeah, absolutely.

因为我们的某些艺术史同行，克里斯汀，对所谓的‘伟人史观’在历史和艺术史中的应用持谨慎态度。

Cause some of our art historical colleagues, Christine, are a little bit wary when it comes to what we call the great man theory of history and art history.

但谈到都铎艺术时，君主们的所作所为和想法确实至关重要，对吧？

But when it comes to Tudor art, what the monarchs do and think really matters, doesn't it?

是的，我认为必须考虑这些艺术作品创作时的背景条件。

Yeah, I think you have to consider the conditions in which this art is being made.

在这种情况下，我确实以每位君主为主线来构建这本书。

And in this case, I do structure the book very strongly by Rain.

这是因为每位君主都为其时代确立了截然不同的艺术基调，而这种基调随后会通过王室政策影响到中产阶级等新近有能力委托艺术创作的人群，也就是我们所说的‘中等阶层’。

And that's because each of the monarchs really sets a different tone for for what kind of art is being produced in their time and then that does filter through to people who are newly in a position to commission art in the middle classes for example the middling sort as we call them as a result of royal policy.

所以尽管你无法像在意大利艺术中那样，逐个艺术家地去追踪，但我认为在这一特定情况下，艺术方向确实由上层强力主导。

So although you know it's it you can't tell it in the way that you would in Italian art you know artist by artist I do think that in this particular case there is a very strong steer from the top.

是的。

Yeah.

亨利七世，都铎王朝的第一位君主，在我看来，尤其在艺术史叙事中，被他那令人畏惧的儿子亨利八世——接下来我们会谈到他——不公平地抹去了。

So Henry the seventh, the first Tudor monarch, always in my opinion, unfairly airbrushed out, especially in the terms of the artistic story by his ogreous son, Henry VIII, who will come to.

所以，请跟我们讲讲亨利七世，他是如何改变英国艺术史的？

So tell us a little bit about Henry VII and how he changes the story of art in Britain.

从艺术史的角度来看，亨利七世被严重低估了。

Henry VII is so underrated, I think, from an art historical perspective, especially.

他登基时对王位的继承权微乎其微，血统上几乎站不住脚。

He comes to the throne with very little claim to be there in terms of his blood.

他之所以能坐上王位，仅仅是因为在博斯沃思战役中击败了理查三世。

He's really only there because he's defeated Richard the third at the Battle of Bosworth.

于是，他并非真正的王室血统，只有一点点王室血统的掺杂。

So there he is, not really royal by blood, sort of just a tincture of royal blood.

他非常清楚图像和艺术如何帮助他巩固自己对王位的宣称。

And he's very aware of how images and art can help him to reinforce his claim to the throne.

因此，我们看到他委托铸造了第一批印有自己肖像的硬币。

So we see him commissioning the first coins with his face on them.

实际上，这是第一位君主的肖像。

Actually, a likeness of the monarch.

在此之前，硬币上的图像都是极为通用的。

Prior to that, it was very much a generic image on the coinage.

所以是普通的

So a regular

侧面像，对吧？

kind of profile, is that right?

是的，正是侧面像。

Yes, exactly, in profile.

而且他看起来确实很像之前硬币上那种典型的国王形象。

And he does actually look quite a lot like sort of generic king who preceded him on the coinage.

但你可以从鼻子看出，他的鼻子非常突出。

But you can tell from the nose, it's a very strong nose.

然后你就会意识到，这是亨利。

And then you sort of notice it's Henry.

他还使用挂毯，似乎选择了一些描绘其统治、将自己比作结束内战的罗马皇帝韦斯巴芗的故事。

He also uses tapestry, so he seems to be choosing stories in tapestry that frame his reign and sort of position him as comparable to Roman Emperor's Vespasian who ended a period of civil war.

因此，他显然非常清楚图像和艺术赞助在确立他作为正统国王形象方面的力量。

So he seems to be very aware of the power that images and patronage can have in positioning him as a proper king.

在都铎艺术的故事中，我最喜欢的地方之一，就是我们现在称为亨利小教堂的地方。

One of my favorite places in the story of Tudor, art, Christina, is we call now the Henry Chapel.

那是原本附在威斯敏斯特教堂末端的圣母小教堂，他后来进行了扩建。

So that's the former lady chapel tacked on to the end of Westminster Abbey, he builds.

是的。

Yes.

它堪称英国垂直式哥特式建筑的巅峰之作。

And it's a magnificent kind of the apogee of what English perpendicular Gothic.

但我真正钟爱的是他的陵墓，因为你可以透过哥特式小教堂的拱门，看到一些截然不同的东西。

But what I really love is his tomb, because you can look through the Gothic Chantry arches into something which was radically different.

给我们讲讲吧。

Tell us about that.

是的。

Yes.

在他生前，他一直委托意大利艺术家创作，并对他们非常感兴趣。

During his life, he was commissioning and very interested in Italian artists.

他似乎曾向圭多·马佐尼和其他一些有趣的人物请求设计他的陵墓。

He seems to have asked for designs for a tomb from Guido Mazzoni and various other sort of interesting people.

而在他统治末期，皮耶罗·托里贾尼出现了——他因打伤米开朗基罗的鼻子而闻名，可能因为他在佛罗伦萨已不受欢迎而来到英格兰，他或许通过制作一副死亡面具赢得了为亨利七世建造陵墓的委托，这副面具后来成为陵墓上的雕像，这座雕像也位于威斯敏斯特教堂，是一尊全尺寸、全身的国王模型，曾在葬礼上置于棺木之上。

And then at some point, very much towards the end of his reign, it seems that Pietro Torriggiano, who's most famous for having punched Michelangelo on the nose and broken his nose, arrives in England probably because he's not really wanted in Florence anymore as And a he wins the commission for Henry the seventh's tomb possibly by creating, first of all, a death mask that becomes the effigy, which is also in Westminster Abbey, which is a full length, sort of full size model of the king, which lies on the coffin at the funeral.

太惊人了。

Amazing thing.

陵墓的大部分工程是在亨利八世时期完成的，但很明显，这延续了亨利七世早已探索的思路。

So most of the commission of the tomb is under Henry the eighth, but it's clear that this is following lines of thought that Henry the seventh was already exploring.

好吧。

Alright.

那么，说亨利七世将意大利文艺复兴带到了英格兰，是否是一个大胆的主张？

So would it be a bold claim to say that Henry the seventh brings the Italian Renaissance to England?

或者我们该说他帮助带来了文艺复兴？

Or should we say helps bring it?

我们该把这话说多远？

How far should we go?

我认为他会利用任何有助于自己塑造为一位开明、强大且具有国际形象的君主的手段。

I think he will use anything that helps him to look like a good international sort of sensible, strong monarch.

我认为这个想法是，你知道，文艺复兴什么时候传到英国的？

I think this idea of, you know, when does the Renaissance come to England?

在某种程度上，文艺复兴从未真正传入英国。

To some degree, it never comes to England.

在某种程度上，它一直以某种形式存在。

To some degree, it's there a little bit all the time.

你知道，他们并不认为这是一种应该追求的目标。

You know, there's it's not like this is something that they recognize as an aim that they should have.

比如，‘哦，我们现在应该变成意大利人了。’

Like, oh, we should be Italian now.

但当流行的事物出现时，他们会感兴趣。

But they are interested when fashionable things come their way.

好的。

All right.

现在，亨利八世是亨利七世的儿子，我一直觉得有趣的是，他某种程度上贬低了他父亲的陵墓。

Now, Henry VIII, son of Henry VII, I always think it's interesting how he kind of downgrades his dad's tomb.

我认为我们可以将这种做法延伸到他统治时期的大部分艺术作品上。

I think we can extend that approach to much of the art during his reign.

他有点儿，我的意思是，他确实喜欢豪华的宫殿。

He's a bit I mean, he does like he likes a fancy palace.

他把霍尔拜因请到这里，或者更准确地说，霍尔拜因在他这里工作。

He brings Holbein here, or Holbein works for him rather, when he's here.

但你看，我认为亨利在故事中是个极具破坏性的人物。

But you see, I think he's a very destructive figure, Henry Hates in the story.

你认为他有我所认为的那么具有破坏性吗？

Do you think he's as destructive as I think he should be?

我认为，显然，解散修道院、摧毁大量中世纪艺术作品的责任都可以归咎于他，那些我们如今甚至无法想象的损失。

I think, obviously, you can lay at his door the dissolution of the monasteries, the destruction of great swathes of medieval art that, you know, we can't even imagine what was lost now.

这种破坏是如此彻底。

It's The destruction is so wholesale.

嗯。

Uh-huh.

但在教区教堂方面，真正推行系统性圣像破坏的是他儿子爱德华六世统治时期，而不是他。

But in terms of parish churches, he's not the one who sanctions official iconoclasm that comes in the reign of his son Edward the sixth.

多亏了亨利七世的赞助，我们才得以保留霍尔拜因的作品。

And we do have Holbein thanks to Henry Lick's patronage.

所以我认为亨利非常热衷于与法国的弗朗索瓦一世一较高下。

So I think he's he's very interested Henry in rivaling Francis the first of France.

而弗朗索瓦拥有达·芬奇。

And Francis has Leonardo da Vinci.

他身边有真正来自意大利的顶尖艺术家，而亨利始终未能达到这个水平。

He has real kind of proper artists from Italy and Henry never quite gets there.

皮耶罗·托里贾尼是他最接近的代表人物。

Pietro Torriggiano is the closest he comes.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但这种野心是存在的，因此我认为我们因此拥有一些他委托制作的精彩挂毯系列。

But the ambition is there and I think as a result we have some wonderful things that he commissioned, incredible tapestry sets.

如果我们现在还能看到努内奇宫，我想这也会是完全不同的故事，因为那里投入了大量工作。

If we still had Nunsuch Palace, I think that would be a very different story as well because there's there's so much work goes into that.

所以我不认为他完全应该为破坏行为负责，而没有任何积极的贡献。

So I wouldn't say he's, you know, completely responsible for destruction and and nothing positive.

好的。

Alright.

不过，这是一个非常合理的观点。

That's a very valid point, though.

因此，大部分实际的破坏行为实际上是在他儿子爱德华六世统治时期才开始的。我们该责怪爱德华六世吗？该责怪摄政者吗？还是说这背后有更广泛的原因？当你读到一些关于艺术品应被摧毁多少、应摧毁得多彻底的规则时，这简直令人震惊，不是吗？

So most of the actual destruction really gets going in the reign of his son, Edward the Now should we blame Edward the sixth, should we blame the protectors, or is it a much broader the some of the when you read some of the kind of rules about how much art should be destroyed and how thoroughly it should be destroyed, it's quite shocking, isn't it?

确实如此。

It is.

彻底移除并摧毁所有祭坛、雕像，基本上包括教堂和家庭中的一切。

Take away utterly extinct and destroy all shrines, images, anything basically in churches and in homes.

所以这就是他的抱负。

So that's the ambition.

我认为在实践中，要推行这种全面的破坏是非常困难的。

I think in practice, it's very hard to reinforce that kind of wholesale destruction.

当然，他的摄政者爱德华·西摩，萨默塞特勋爵，以及后来的约翰·达德利，诺森伯兰公爵，主要负责宗教政策。

Of course, know, his protector Edward Seymour, Lord Somerset, and then subsequently John Dudley, Duke of Northumberland are primarily responsible for the religious policy.

但爱德华是在他叔叔的家中长大的。

But Edward had been brought up in his uncle's household.

就一个九岁孩子所能理解的范围而言，他似乎认同那些代表他实施的政策。

He seems to, insofar as a nine year old can, agree with the policies that are being enacted on his behalf.

我认为他不会等到成年之后突然转身说：‘其实我是天主教徒，让我们把那些图像都恢复吧。’

I don't think he would have got to his majority and turned around and gone, actually, I'm a Catholic, let's bring the images back.

把艺术恢复回来。

Bring the art back.

好的。

All right.

现在，我对你书中最感兴趣的一点是，你首次如此全面地涵盖了玛丽·都铎统治时期发生的事情。她当然是一位天主教徒，曾大力尝试恢复部分艺术品。

Now, one of the bit I found so fascinating about your book is how thoroughly you cover, really for the first time, what happens during the reign of Mary Tudor, who, of course, was a Catholic and makes very ambitious efforts to put some of the art back.

你认为她的努力有多成功？如果她能活得更久，结果会怎样？

How successful do you think that that was or could have been had she lived even longer?

玛丽一登上王位，那些把从教区教堂取走的圣像藏在家里的信徒，就立刻把它们重新放回教堂。

Well, as soon as Mary comes to the throne, people who've been hiding images in their houses that they took out of parish churches, just put them straight back there.

他们觉得，太好了。

They think, great.

天主教徒坐上了王位。

Catholics on the throne.

我们可以把所有圣像都重新请出来了。

We'll get all the images out again.

但有些圣像实际上已经不再被视为合适了。

To the degree that some of them are actually not really seen as acceptable anymore.

它们不够好了。

They're not good enough.

所以当她派遣主教们进行巡视，询问你们教堂里有哪些圣像时，

So when she sends her bishops out on visitation to sort of say, know, what images do you have in your church?

你们必须要有基督的雕像和你们的主保圣人的雕像。

You've got to have a statue of Christ and a statue of your patron saint.

实际上，那些旧的圣像已经被认为不再可接受了。

Actually, of the old images are seen as not really acceptable anymore.

他们被要求委任制作新的圣像。

They they're asked to commission new ones.

到这个时候，教区已经花费了大量资金拆除圣像、粉刷墙壁。

By this point, the parishes have spent so much money tearing things down, whitewashing the walls.

他们实际上并没有足够的资金来

They actually don't really have the funds to

大规模

massively

即使他们想重新引入圣像，也无力承担。

reintroduce images even if they want to.

所以我认为她的成功只在一定程度上。

So I think she's successful only to a degree.

所以我们感谢玛丽的努力，而伊丽莎白一世登场后，这场争论实际上就向前推进了，不是吗？

So we say thanks Mary for your efforts and Elizabeth I comes along and by really that debate sort of moves on, doesn't it?

她说：我不会去窥探人们灵魂的窗户。

She says, I'm not going to make windows into men's souls.

宗教艺术不被推崇，但当我们定义都铎时期的伊丽莎白时代艺术时，能否让我们稍微了解一下一些更世俗艺术的兴起？

Religious art is of frowned upon, but give us a little glimpse of the emergence of some of the more secular art and what we're looking out for when we define Elizabethan art in the Tudor period?

我认为过去的艺术史学家往往只关注油画或雕塑这类作品，而都铎时期的英格兰这类作品并不多。

Well, I think art historians of the past have tended to look exclusively at things like easel painting or sculpture, which there isn't a huge amount of in Tudor England.

当然，我们有肖像画，但真正令人兴奋的是装饰艺术领域——也就是所谓的装饰艺术，比如壁画、挂毯、刺绣和灰泥装饰，实际上这些地方仍保留着相当多的宗教图像。

We have portraits, of course, but where the really exciting stuff is that's in the decorative arts what is sort of called the decorative arts so wall paintings tapestries embroideries plaster work and actually there's a surprising amount of religious imagery in those places.

在家庭环境中，似乎并没有像其他地方那样受到排斥。

In domestic settings, it doesn't seem to be frowned upon in the same way.

这没那么危险。

It's not as dangerous.

你不会像在教堂里那样对它怀有敬畏之心。

You're not going to treat it with reverence like you would if it was in a church.

伊丽莎白时代，就艺术而言，常被描述为一种独特的孤立状态。

The Elizabethan reign, insofar as it extends to art, is often characterised as one of a kind of creative isolation.

我们与欧洲截然不同。

We're very distinct from Europe.

你同意这种说法吗？

Would you agree with that?

我认为，与欧洲的联系比过去所承认的要更多。

I think there is more of a connection with Europe than maybe has been acknowledged in the past.

但就艺术的外观而言，确实有一种独特的伊丽莎白风格，有些人说这种风格是人为的、僵硬的、拜占庭式的，但却美得惊人。

But in terms of what the art looks like there is a distinctive Elizabethan style and some people have said this is artificial it's stiff it's Byzantine but gorgeous.

人们对材质的关注非常多，尼古拉斯·希利亚德就是典型的例子。

There's so much attention to material and Nicholas Hilliard is the is the key example.

他绘制了伊丽莎白一世及其朝臣的微型肖像。

His miniatures of Elizabeth the first and her courtiers.

他极其细致地描绘了服饰、服装和珠宝。

The attention that he lavishes on the roughs and the costumes and the jewels.

他用真正的金粉来绘制珠宝的金质底座。

He uses real gold to paint the gold settings of the jewels.

他用一点树脂来表现服装上的宝石。

He uses a dab of resin to create the gemstones on the costumes.

这些图像中蕴含着巨大的创新与愉悦感。

There is a huge amount of innovation and delight in these images.

但如果你以一种期待能走进画中的方式来看待它们，以为会有单一焦点透视，

But if you approach them thinking, I'm going to feel like I could walk into that picture, it's going to have single point perspective.

你就无法体会到它们的美。

You're not going to see what's beautiful about them.

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，我喜欢哈德威克大厅作为伊丽莎白时代艺术与建筑的范例，正是因为它的独特性。

I mean, one of the reasons I love Hardwick Hall as an example of Elizabethan art and architecture is it's so unique.

欧洲没有任何地方能与之相比。

There's nothing like it in Europe.

你说得对，当然，它建立在许多欧洲理念之上。

You're right to say, of course, that it is built on so many European ideas.

我的意思是，贝丝·哈德威克和她的建筑师罗伯特·史密森，就像喜鹊一样，从印刷书籍中窃取各种设计和细节，对吧？

I mean, Bessieff Hardwick and her architect, Robert Smythson, are kind of magpie stealing little designs and bits from print books, aren't they?

但它独具特色。

But it is distinctive.

是的。

Yes.

你认为当斯图亚特王朝到来并开始将一切古典化时，我们失去了这种独特性，还是认为它只是演变成了别的东西？

Do you think it's a shame that when the Stuarts come along and start to classicize everything, we lose that distinctiveness or do you think it just evolves into something else?

我的意思是，我对1630年左右就失去兴趣了。

I mean, I lose interest around 1630.

我认为，讽刺的是，一些最优秀的都铎艺术实际上是在詹姆斯时期创作的。

I think that some of the best Tudor art is actually produced under James ironically.

在许多地区，存在着大量延续性，你很难将某些物品的年代精确到两百年以内。

There's a lot of continuity and in regional areas, you'd be hard pressed to date some objects within two centuries.

因此，很多这种风格确实延续了下来。

So a lot of this does continue.

但当凡·戴克到来，一切变得更具欧洲风格、更主流时，对我来说，这是一种损失。

But certainly when Van Dyke comes over and everything gets a bit more European looking and a bit more mainstream, for me, that's a loss.

某种真正独特而特别的东西已经消失了。

Something really distinctive and special has evaporated.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我认为你说得完全正确。

I think you're absolutely right.

好了，克里斯汀，非常感谢你。

Well, Christine, thank you so much.

恭喜你的书出版了。

Congratulations on the book.

这本书真的很棒，希望它能大卖。

It's really fantastic, and I hope it does very well.

它值得拥有这样的成功。

It deserves to.

而且这本书上市时间正好，人们可以把它当作一份不错的圣诞礼物购买。

And it's available in time for people to purchase as a good Christmas present.

所以，希望它能装满许多圣诞袜。

So let's hope it fills many stockings.

谢谢。

Thank you.

那么，我们来说说都铎艺术。

So, well, there we are, Tudor Art.

你自己有没有特别喜欢的都铎艺术作品？

Do you have any Tudor favorites yourself?

嗯，我确实有。

Well, I do.

但在我们继续之前，贝恩多，当克里斯汀说艺术在1630年左右就停止了，她一看到凡·戴克和斯图亚特艺术出现就不再感兴趣了，而威廉·多布森也属于那个时代，你当时同意她的观点。

But before we go on to that, Bettendor, when when Christine said that art stopped around 1630 and that she goes off it when Van Dyke arrives and Stuart art arrives, and that's, of course, the era of William Dobson as well, you agreed with her.

你以一种怯懦的方式屈服了——你花了这么多集播客跟我喋喋不休地谈论凡·戴克，结果突然间你却说他们的艺术更有趣。

You you, in a craven way, caved in having spent all these blooming podcasts with me going on and on and on about Van Dyke.

你到底怎么了？

Suddenly you said yes to their art is more interesting.

我一时糊涂了。

What happened to you?

不，我的意思是，我同意的是，从那时起，艺术就不再具有鲜明的英国特色了。

I forgot myself.

我们曾经有过那么一个时刻，创造出了一种独特的英国或不列颠式艺术风格，如果你刻薄一点，可能会说这仅仅是因为我们艺术水平不高。

Well, no, what I meant to agree was was the fact that then it stops being distinctly English.

我们曾经有过那么一个时刻，创造出了一种独特的英国或不列颠式艺术风格，如果你刻薄一点，可能会说这仅仅是因为我们艺术水平不高。

It has one we have one of those little moments where we come up with a sort of distinctly English or British kind of way of doing things, which if you are unkind, you might say was just simply because we weren't very good at art.

但无论如何，当像凡·戴克这样的人出现时，我们开始变得更加欧洲化，而斯图亚特王朝对此负有责任。

But anyway, and then when people like Van Dyke come, we we start to become more European, and and the Stuarts are responsible for that.

但不，我一时失言，对多布森和凡·戴克表示歉意。

But, no, I forgot myself, and I'm sorry to Dobson and Van Dyke.

是的。

Yes.

不过，这非常有趣。

Very interesting, though.

嗯。

Yeah.

我对于都铎时期的绘画了解得可能还不如我应该知道的那么多。

I I I don't know as much about Tudor art as I guess I should do.

但某种程度上，这也可以理解，因为她的书实际上填补了一个空白，不是吗？

But but in a way, that's understandable because her book is actually filling a gap, isn't it?

因为那些对都铎艺术有所了解的人，可能只知道霍尔拜因。

Because those of us who know anything at all about Tudor art, we might know about Holbein.

我们可能知道尼古拉斯·希多特，就像你所说的那样。

We might know about Nicholas Hidiot, as as you said.

但我们真的不了解她所提到的这些其他内容。

But we don't really know all this other stuff that she talks about.

看到这个更大的图景真是太有趣了。

And it was it's it's so interesting to see this bigger picture.

尤其是刺绣、挂毯、墙饰这些东西，突然间让我们看到了都铎艺术整个故事的扩展。

Again, like, particularly the embroidery, the hangings, the wall hangings, all that, suddenly seeing the whole story of Tudor art being enlarged.

说实话，有那么一个人，我已经对都铎王朝快忍无可忍了，我是说对都铎人，而不是对都铎艺术。

You know, one of those people I'm to be really honest with you, you know, I'm I've almost had it up to my teeth with Tudor arts or with the Tudors, rather.

不是对都铎艺术。

Not with Tudor art.

是对都铎人。

With the Tudors.

你知道的？

You know?

求求你，别再提亨利八世了。

No more Henry the eighth, please.

别再提《狼厅》了。

No more Wolf Hall.

求你了，我拜托你。

Please, I beg you.

但她通过探索其他艺术形式和他们所做的其他事情，找到了一条全新的路径。

But but she found a fresh journey through that with this exploration of other art forms, other things they were doing.

比如，她提出的那种挑选个别君主的想法。

And someone like I mean, this this idea of hers of of picking out the individual monarchs.

我的意思是，亨利七世，因为他被他那糟糕的儿子完全盖过了风头，是个模糊的人物，不是吗？我觉得关于他，很难形成具体的印象。

I mean, Henry the seventh, because he's blown out of the water by his awful son, is this vague figure, isn't he, about about whom it's very hard to have a concrete image, I think.

她在这方面做得非常出色。

And she's done a wonderful job there.

所以我很高兴你喜欢这本书，这一切都非常有趣。

So I'm I'm thrilled that you like the book, and it was all very interesting.

谢谢你的分享。

Thank you for that.

很好。

Good.

很高兴你喜欢。

Glad you liked it.

事实上，我觉得我们应该多做一期关于亨利七世的内容，我很想做一期关于西敏寺的亨利七世礼拜堂的节目。

In fact, I think we should do more on Henry the seventh, and I would love to do something on the Lady Chapel, the Henry the seventh chapel at Westminster Abbey.

所以，也许我们的一次探险，有一天可以去那里进行。

So perhaps one of our adventures, we could do it there one day.

确实如此。

Indeed.

但在我们再次深陷遥远的过去之前，本迪，你知道，我在这个播客中的职责其实是尽量——我的意思是，我无法一直保持更新，但至少有时能让我们停留在本千年下半叶。

But before we sink once more into the far past with you, Bendy, you know, my job on this podcast really is to try at least I mean, I can't keep it up to date all the time, but I can sometimes at least keep us in the sort of second half of this millennium.

现在我就要这么做，因为节目即将进入一个美好的环节：我会选择一幅画，如果我能拥有它，我希望能挂在自己家里。

And and I'm gonna try and do that now because we're coming to that lovely point in the program where I get to choose a picture that I would love to have hanging in my house if I could.

我选了一幅我真的很、真的很想拥有的画。

And I've gone for something that I really, really, and really would love to have.

我真的非常想拥有。

I really would.

挂在墙上。

On the wall.

是的。

Yes.

挂在墙上，本迪。

On the wall, Bendy.

正如我所说，我选了一幅我真心想拥有的画，那是爱德华·马奈的作品，这位伟大的法国画家是印象派的先驱，在我看来，他是有史以来最重要的艺术家之一。

So as I said, I've gone for something I I would genuinely love to have, and it's a notorious painting by Edouard Manet, the great French precursor of the impressionists, and in my book, one of the most important artists there's ever been.

我完全是马奈的铁杆粉丝。

I'm totally paid up Manet fan.

我选的是他的《奥林匹亚》。

And I've gone for his Olympia.

之前我说过，我去过‘冷冻艺术展’，在那里你发现了一些由女性绘制的裸体画作。

Now earlier on, I I said I went to the Freeze Art Fair, and one of the things that you found there was nudes painted by women.

这实际上是女性声音试图重新夺回自己历史的一种尝试。

So it was an attempt really for by the feminine voice to reclaim some of its own history.

‘冷冻艺术展’中的许多裸体画作都非常明确地挑战了男性凝视，试图颠覆并以女性凝视取而代之——这当然是值得尊敬的行为，必须得到支持。

And a lot of the nudes that were in the Freeze Art Fair were very, very deliberately really challenging the male gaze and, as it were, trying to usurp it and replace it with the female gaze, which is a honorable thing to do, of course, and must be supported.

所以你可能会问自己：瓦尔德莫特，为什么你又回到了男性凝视呢？

So you might be asking yourself, why there, Valdemort, have you gone back to the male gaze again?

马奈。

Manet.

请自便。

Help yourself well.

除了我无法控制自己之外。

Apart from not being able to help myself.

不，不是的。

Man no.

马奈的《奥林匹亚》可能是十九世纪最著名的裸体画作，当时一经创作便引发了极大的争议。

Manet's Olympia is probably the most famous nineteenth century nude of them all, and it was certainly at the time she was painted one of the most controversial.

但我之所以回到这幅画，首先是因为我喜爱它，其次是因为它背后有着非常有趣的故事，画中充满了诸多耐人寻味的细节，我认为，即使是最坚定的女性视角裸体艺术支持者，也会认同选择马奈的《奥林匹亚》是有充分理由的。

But I've gone back to it, first of all, because I love it, but also because it it actually has such an interesting storyline and so many curious things are going on here that I think it I think even even very, very determined proponents of the female view of the nude would see that there's quite a sensible reason for picking Manet's Olympiad.

如果你非要选一幅男性笔下的女性裸体画像，那就选这一幅吧。

If you're gonna pick one bloke's image of a nude woman, let it be this one.

当然，你认识这幅画，本迪。

But you know the painting, of course, Bendy.

是的。

Yeah.

它在奥赛博物馆，对吧？

It's in the Musee d'Orsay, isn't it?

它确实在奥赛博物馆，创作于1863年。

It is in the Musee d'Orsay, and it was painted in 1863.

但有趣的是，那一年也正是马奈同期另一幅伟大裸体作品的创作年份，也就是那幅描绘四人坐在河岸的画作。

But interestingly, which is the same year, by the way, as Manet's other great nude of the period, which is the, you know, which is the four people sitting by the riverbank.

女人是裸体的，而男人们却没裸体。

The woman's nude, the guys are are not nude.

这让人想起乔尔乔内的《田园合奏》，画中两位森林女神或水仙女坐在两位演奏乐器的男子旁边。

So that's got a version of Giorgiooni's concert Champetre, where the two wood nymphs water nymphs are sitting next to the two blokes who are playing musical instruments.

因为这就是马奈所做的。

Because that's what Manet did.

他试图将古典大师的主题加以现代化。

He was trying to take the old master subjects and update them.

我觉得翻唱版本让人想起新音乐？

Cover versions, I think, recall new music?

加以现代化。

Update them.

他会超越翻唱版本的形式。

He would he would transcend the cover version format.

这就像艺术史的卡拉OK。

It's art history karaoke.

哦，来了来了。

It's like, oh, here we go.

我就随便搬出一首热门曲子。

I'll just wheel out a hit.

是他发明的。

Invented it.

里面裸体更多了。

More nudity in it.

不。

No.

没有什么比这更廉价的了。

Nothing like nothing as cheap as that.

他其实是在问自己一个问题。

He would he was basically asking himself a question.

你知道吗，如果我是19世纪50年代和60年代的一位伟大画家，我能画什么伟大的题材呢？

You know, if I'm a great painter in the in the '9 in the eighteen fifties and sixties, what great subject matter can I paint?

这与拉斐尔、米开朗基罗和乔尔乔内所做的是相匹配的。

There's a match for what Rafael did, what Michelangelo did, what Giorgione did.

你知道，我能做什么才能与他们相媲美呢？

You know, what can I do that's a match for that?

在现代世界中，有什么能与那些伟大的古典大师相抗衡？

What in the modern world can can take on the the great old masters?

因此，这是一种非常崇高的抱负。

So it was a very noble ambition.

但《奥林匹亚》确实是一幅裸体画。

But Olympia, so, yes, she's she's a nude.

她与《草地上的午餐》创作于同一年，但几年后才在沙龙展出。

She was painted the same year as a Dejeuner sur l'air, but only shown a couple of years later at the salon.

因此，1865年的沙龙是马奈首次展出《奥林匹亚》的时候。

So the salon of of 1865 was when Manet unveiled Olympia.

你知道，《草地上的午餐》早在1863年就已展出，比这早两年，而那幅画当时被沙龙拒绝了。

You know that the Dejeuner Solebe was was unveiled in in 1863, so two years earlier, and that's the one that was refused by the salon.

于是他把作品送到了他的落选者沙龙展出，众所周知，这个活动正是印象派的开端。

So he then went and showed it at his Salon de Refuse, which, as everybody knows, was the kind of event that started impressionism.

所以，这可以说是现代艺术诞生的革命性时刻。

So a huge revolutionary moment when modern art was born, if you like.

是的。

Yeah.

但他并没有表现出虚弱。

But he didn't show a limp

这就像是你我去大英博物馆参加落选者沙龙，你知道的，那是最时髦的派对，专门给没被邀请的人去的。

It's it's like you and me going to the British Museum, Boulder Refuse, you know, the party the really trendy party where the uninvited go to.

是的。

Yeah.

没错，就是那样。

Well, exactly that.

嗯，我们可能会去街角的麦当劳。

Well, we would have gone to the McDonald's around the corner.

是的。

Yes.

大英博物馆拒展。

The BM Refuse.

你说得对极了。

You're you're so right.

所以，总之，《午餐上的草地》在拒展沙龙展出，但同一时期创作、同样以维克多琳·莫兰为模特的《奥林匹亚》却没有展出。

So, anyway, the Dejeuner Soleil was shown at the Salon d'Refuse, but Olympia, which was painted at the same time and features the same nude model, actually, Victorine Moran, wasn't.

他等了两年。

He waited for two years.

我认为是因为他害怕展出它。

I think because he was scared of showing it.

这幅画太具挑衅性了。

It's such a provocative picture.

直到1865年才展出。

It wasn't until 1865.

当然，这立刻引发了轩然大波，以至于他们不得不派保安站在画旁，还得把画挂得很高，好让没人能看得清楚。

And, of course, it did cause an immediate rumpus, so much so that they had to have guards standing next to her, and they had to hang it really high up on the walls so that nobody could see it.

那你认为为什么会这样呢，贝多尔？

Now why do you think that was Ben Dor?

因为巴黎社会充满了保守派，而马奈却展示了太多裸露的肌肤。

Because Paris society was full of prudes, and Manet was showing a bit too much flesh.

是的。

Yes.

这类事情有一个重要的前提，我认为：这是一幅巨幅画作，而当时人们认为，如此规模的画作本应表现一些合乎道德、高雅的主题，神话题材是可以接受的，但绝不能是一幅当代图像——比如一个明显是妓女或情妇、躺在床上的女人。

Those kinds of things with a kind of important proviso, I think, that is a big picture, and they those kinds of pictures on that scale were thought to really should should show something appropriately moralistic and posh and, you know, mythological subject matter was alright, but not a contemporary image of what was clearly a courtesan or a prostitute lying on a bed.

真正激怒人们的是，马奈没有假装这幅画描绘的是维纳斯、卡利斯托或其他希腊女神，而是明确地表明它根本不是。

And that's what really got people's goat, that instead of pretending that this this was some kind of Venus or a Callisto or some other Greek goddess, Manet made it quite clear that it wasn't.

尽管这位裸体女性有一个看似高雅的希腊名字——奥林匹亚，但她实际上用的是当时妓女和时髦女孩中非常流行的名字。

And although she has a sort of posh Greek name, Olympia, the nude woman actually took the name that was quite popular amongst prostitutes and cool girls at the time.

因为在巴黎的妓院——当时有数百家合法妓院——这些女孩常常会取一些高雅的希腊名字，比如阿斯帕西娅、乔卡斯塔，或者像这幅画中的奥林匹亚。

Because in Paris' brothels, Paris' many legal brothels, there were hundreds of them, the girls would often take these posh Greek names, like Aspasia or Jocasta or, in this case, Olympia.

所以，她们的名字实际上是一种体面的伪装。

So there was a sort of pretense, really, of respectability in their names.

总之，维多利亚·梅隆，曼尼最近发现并非常喜爱的模特，他们之间并没有什么风流韵事。

So, anyway, Victory Mehron, who had Manny had recently discovered and loved her as a model, there was no shenanigans between them.

我认为他只是真的觉得她的面容和个性非常有趣。

I think he just genuinely found her really interesting as her face and her persona.

她伸展躺在一张床上。

It's stretched out on a bed.

在她脚边是一只黑猫，弓着背，似乎正在对我们嘶嘶作响。

At her feet is a black cat, which is kind of arched up on it on its back and seems to be hissing at us.

一位黑人女仆正端着一大束花进来，而模特奥林匹亚则直视着我们，脸上带着一种既挑衅又难以捉摸的表情。

A servant, a black servant girl, is bringing a big bouquet of flowers, and the model, Olympia, is just staring out at us with a with a look on her face that is provocative but also quite elusive.

我的意思是，她到底在做什么？

I mean, what is what is she doing?

当你看到她的脸时，你看到了什么，本多尔？

When when you see her face, what do you see, Bendor?

你觉得她是欢迎你，还是在对抗你，或者别的什么？

Do you see her welcoming you or confronting you or what?

我看到的是一种相互的凝视，但我不认为这是一种平等的凝视。

I see a reciprocal gaze, but I I don't think I see an equal gaze.

你什么意思？

What do you mean?

很多人说这种凝视是一种反抗或平等的表现。

Well, I think a lot of people say that the gaze is one of defiance or one of equality.

我不确定是不是这样。

I'm not sure it is.

我从中看到一丝受伤和脆弱，但我可能以一种与曼尼及其当时观众完全不同的方式在看待它。

I I I see a little bit of woundedness in there, vulnerability, but I I think probably I'm looking at this in a very different way than Manny and his audience at the time would have done.

我敢说你，沃尔特，但所有这些都带有主观性。

And I dare say you, Walt, but all of these things are subjective.

当然，它们都是主观的。

Of course, they are.

是的。

Yeah.

现在我听出了她声音中的内省。

Now I see introspection in her voice.

无论如何，真正重要的是，我认为我们都同意的一点：我们就是顾客，对吧？

Anyway, the really important thing, which I think we both agree on, is that we are the customer, aren't we?

换句话说，任何观看这幅画的人，都被置于刚推门走进来的人的位置。

In other words, anyone looking at this picture is positioned as the as the chap who's just walked in through the door.

而那个刚推门走进来的人，他给她送了花，女仆正在送花。

And the chap who's walked in through the door, he sent her some flowers, and the maid is delivering the flowers.

她，可以说，正在向我们打招呼，不是吗？

And she's, as it were, greeting us, isn't she?

所以，当年去沙龙的所有人看到这幅画都感到不安，主要原因在于，这幅画把所有戴高帽的中产阶级男子都变成了这位女士的顾客。

So the big reason why everybody who went to the salon was upset by this picture is because this picture casts all the bourgeois chaps with their top hats who went to the salon as this lady's client.

而她实际上是在指责每一个走进来的人——你知道的，都是那些光顾妓女的中产阶级，而当时所有人确实都是如此。

And she's accusing, really, pretty much everybody who walks in of being, you know, a bourgeois haunter of courtesans, which they all were at the time.

所以，我选这幅画的原因是，尽管它当然关乎男性凝视，你无法不欣赏马奈描绘这种美丽裸体的方式。

So, you know, the reason I picked this picture is because although it is about of course, it's about, you know, the man's gaze, and you can't help but but admire the way Manet's painted this sort of beautiful nude.

但它也是一幅指控性的画作。

It's also an accusatory picture.

它在指控那些观看这幅画的资产阶级男性，指出他们就是资产阶级男性。

It's accusing the bourgeois males that are looking at it of being bourgeois males.

而且，马奈在其整个艺术生涯中，我认为都对这些不幸的女性表现出极大的同情，她们在当时的社会中以各种方式遭受压迫，不得不想尽一切办法谋生。

And, you know, and and Manet throughout his art, I think, shows so much sympathy for these unfortunate women who, in various ways, were abused by society at the time and had to make their way in any way they could to to earn any money they could, to get any jobs they could.

我认为你所察觉到的那种温柔确实存在，而且我认为这是马奈刻意赋予模特——维多利亚·默龙（作为奥林匹亚）——一种既温柔又具指控性的存在感。

And I think that sort of tenderness that you spotted is there, and I think it's a deliberate attempt by Manet to endow the model, Victory Murong as Olympia, with a with a presence that is is, as it were, tender as well as accusatory.

但那只猫很有趣。

But the cat's interesting.

看那只猫。

See the cat.

对吧？

Right?

那只猫。

The cat.

看看它。

Look at it.

猫正用那双大大的白眼睛盯着我们。

The cat is staring at us with these big white eyes.

你能听到它在嘶嘶作响，对吧？

You can hear it hissing, can't you?

所以这只猫不喜欢我们，斯彭迪。

So the cat doesn't like us, Spendy.

你知道，它不喜欢我和你走进房间。

You know, it doesn't like me and you walking into the room.

它在保护它的主人。

It's feeling protective towards its mistress.

它可能会抓瞎你的眼睛，不是吗？

It's gonna it could scratch your eyes out, couldn't it?

所以，这为这幅图像增添了一种其他的维度。

So it's a kind of other dimension to this image.

而且，最终来说，正是这一点让它变得有趣。

And sort of finally, what makes it interesting.

所以我们正在讨论马奈是如何重新诠释古典大师的艺术的。

So we're talking about how Manet reworked the art of the old masters.

这非常具体地是提香那幅伟大的《乌尔比诺的维纳斯》的改编版本，或者如你所说，是它的翻唱版本。

This is very specifically a version of an adaptation or, as you said, a cover version of Titian's great picture of the Venus of Orbino.

所以，姿势几乎完全相同。

So it's almost exactly the same pose.

在提香的画中，背景里也有一位女仆，正在把什么东西放进一个箱子，可能是放亚麻布的箱子。

There's also in the Titian, there is also a servant girl at the back putting something into some kind of chest, a linen chest or something.

而且，在提香笔下的维纳斯脚边，还有一只狗。

And, also, at the feet of Titian's Venus, there's a dog.

是一只小小的玩赏犬。

There's a little lap dog.

你知道的，艺术中的小狗总是忠诚的象征，对吧？

And the little lap dog as you know, dogs in art are always a sign of fidelity, aren't they?

它们是忠诚的象征。

They're a symbol of fidelity.

所以马奈以他精明、现代、进步的方式，去掉了那只狗。

So Manet, in his cunning, modern, progressive way, has got rid of the dog.

他保留了女仆，但把她描绘得更加现代且尖锐，因为你知道，她是一个黑人女仆，背后或许有着不为人知的悲惨经历。

He's kept the servant girl, but he's made her far more modern and and prickly because she's, you know, a black servant girl with who knows what kind of tragic history behind her.

而猫取代了狗，它不再是代表忠诚的温顺小狗，而是

And the cat has replaced the dog, and instead of being a nice friendly dog representing fidelity, he's

一只

an

一只愤怒的猫，对着进门的人，甚至对着我们，吐着恨意。

angry cat spitting kind of hate at the bloke who's walked through the door, spitting hate at us.

所以这是一幅极其复杂的图像。

So it's a fantastically complex image.

我认为，如果要对十九世纪的伟大新闻进行排名，对我来说，这件事当之无愧位居榜首。

And I think if you're going to rank the great news of the nineteenth century, for me, this sits right at the top.

你不同意这个观点吗？

Would you disagree with that?

哦，好吧，你一定知道我不同意，因为听到你说马奈有着崇高的抱负，将构图视角回溯到提香这样的人物身上，我感到很惊讶，而提香画的《乌尔比诺的维纳斯》几乎就是同一幅画。

Oh, well, I you must know I disagree with that because I'm surprised to hear you say that Manet was having a noble ambition in casting his compositional eye back so far in art history to people like Titian, who paints pretty much the same picture, similar picture in the Venus of Urbino.

因为这正是你总是责备我的地方——总是向后看。

Because that's the sort of thing you berate me for, always looking backwards.

我以为你喜欢的是阿瑟。

You I thought you liked Arthur.

也要向前看。

Look forward as well.

很好。

Good.

但你知道，你是个面向未来的人。

But, you know, you're a man of the future.

等等。

Hang on.

等等。

Hang on.

等等，本·多尔。

Hang on, Ben Doyle.

你扭曲事实的本事真是无底洞。

Your your talent for twisting the truth knows no bottom.

我是说，这确实非常指向未来。

I'm like, I am this does point very much to the future.

我的意思是，从技术上讲，确实如此。

I mean, technically, it certainly does.

看看他是如何画它的。

Look at this way he's painted it.

这些人指责它看起来像一张扑克牌，因为它的画面有一种相当明显的平面感。

These people accused it of looking like a playing card because there's this kind of rather dramatic flatness to it.

但它确实指向未来，因为这不仅仅是男性凝视对美丽女性的觊觎。

But it does point forward because it isn't just the male gaze leching over a beautiful woman.

这是一幅具有完整概念生命的画作。

It's a painting with a whole conceptual life to it.

它有一段故事线，以完全不同的方式吸引我们，触动我们的思想，而不仅仅是我们的其他感官。

It's got a sort of storyline that that involves us in completely different ways, that involves our minds and not just our our other bits.

所以我觉得

So I

我认为其中确实存在不少觊觎的成分。

I think there's a fair degree of leching in it.

我必须说，把一个人如此赤裸地展示出来，再加上那个黑人仆人所处的位置，这幅画中存在着巨大的不平等。

I must say, I think showing someone nude like that and the black servant in a position of there's so much inequality in that picture.

这种表现方式，你知道，虽然大胆且震撼，但我认为用这种方式表达同情有些奇怪。

Find that kind of representation you know, it is bold and it is shocking, but I find it a strange way of showing that sympathy.

我同意。

I agree.

我理解你的观点，这些事情是主观的。

I take your point that these things are subjective.

人们对此可以有不同的看法，但我觉得有趣的是，这确实是一幅这样的画作。

One can have different viewpoints on it, but I just find it interesting that it is the kind of picture.

这又是另一幅关于男人凝视女人的画。

It's yet another picture about men looking at women.

我觉得有趣的是，它深深植根于过去的艺术和像提香的《乌尔比诺的维纳斯》这样的画作中，而这种描绘男人凝视女人的观念，在四百五十年间几乎没有多大变化。

What I find interesting about the fact that it's rooted so pictorially in the art of the past and pictures like Titian's Venus of Urbino is that at its heart, that idea, that mode of painting a picture of men looking at women hasn't changed that much in, what is it, four hundred and fifty years.

实际上，马奈是他那个世界的最后绝唱。

And we're actually Manet, isn't he he's the last hurrah of that kind of world.

你可以把这看作是一本书的结尾，而不是新书的开端，不是吗？

You could see this as the as the end of a book rather than the beginning of a new one, can't you?

嗯，你把它看作是书的结尾。

Well, you're seeing it as the end of a book.

我却完全把它看作是新书的开端，因为它彻底颠覆了那种模式。

I see it absolutely as the beginning of a new one because it is a complete turnaround of that.

我的意思是，关键在于，这幅图像通常并不具有指责性，但在这幅画中却刻意变得具有指责性。

I mean, the whole point is that it's an image that isn't usually accusatory is, in this case, has gone out of its way to be accusatory.

仅仅将它展现在沙龙里，让所有这些男性每次看到它时都伴随着猫的嘶嘶声，这一点就明确指向了后来的发展方向。

Just the very fact of showing it in the salon where all these blokes would be accused every time they look at it with the hissing cat and everything else, You know, that points absolutely forward to to to the way things are later on.

这绝对是一幅具有进步意义的画作。

And it's absolutely a progressive picture.

这是一幅彻底改变叙事线索的作品。

It's absolutely one that changes the storyline.

如果它不回溯过去，它就不会有效果，对吧？

And the it wouldn't work if it wasn't referring back, would it?

它必须回溯到某种它所反对的东西，这样才能清楚地表明它是在反对那种东西。

And it has to it has to refer back to something that it's disagreeing with in order for it to be clear that it's disagreeing with it.

所以，这是一幅具有进步性的图像。

So it's a progressive image.

在我看来，马奈是现代艺术的开创者，他改变了艺术，是过去通向未来的转折点。

Manet was the inventor of modern art as far as I'm concerned, and and he changed he's he's the hinge in which the past becomes the future.

而他那种带着怀疑、探索欲望和卓越视觉创意的观察方式，指明了艺术未来的发展方向。

And that way of looking at things with with doubt, with investigative ambitions, with great pictorial invention, all the things that he did point the way to where art was heading.

所以你觉得这是一个终点。

So you see it as an end.

我绝对认为它是一个开端。

I see it absolutely as a as a beginning.

不仅如此，还是一个极其精彩的开端。

And not only that, but an absolutely fabulous beginning too.

嗯，这属于那种我们不会为此争执的作品。

Well, it's one of those ones we shan't be fighting over.

我们通常争的是哪面墙该挂哪幅画，但这幅你拿去吧。

We're usually fighting over a choice of one wall who gets to keep it, but you can have this one.

真的吗？

Really?

我跟你说啊。

And I'll tell you what.

我会把那幅真正开启一切的画挂在墙上，那就是乔尔乔内的德累斯顿维纳斯。

I'll on my wall, I'll have the picture which really started it all, which was Giorgione's Dresden Venus.

所以我会挂这幅画，它远更卓越、富有远见、领先于时代，而你可以拥有马奈所代表的故事的结局。

So I'll have that, which is a far superior thing, visionary, ahead of its time, and you can have the the end of the story in the Manet.

好。

Good

天啊，本德尔。

lord, Bendor.

我的意思是，我都不知道该怎么回应你了。

I mean, I'm I'm at a loss to reply to that.

那幅《沉睡的维纳斯》，是否出自乔尔乔内之手，可能有争议，但它

The the the Sleeping Venus, the the may or may not be by Giorgione is a

美极了，当然了。

beautiful Oh, definitely.

嗯，它可能不是，也可能确实是。

To well, it may or may not be.

这是一幅美丽的画。

It's a beautiful picture.

我不会跟你争论，但这件事把艺术带入了一个全新的境界。

I'm not gonna argue with you about But this this is something that takes art into a whole new world.

然后毕加索攻击了这幅图像并重新绘制了它，因为他知道这幅画指向未来，而它确实如此。

And then Picasso attacked this image and and repainted it because of because he he knew that it was pointing forwards, and and it absolutely does.

但不管怎样，听我说。

But, anyway, listen.

我们永远不会在这点上达成一致。

We're never gonna agree on that.

这是我们意见不合的众多事情之一。

It's one of the many things we don't agree on.

我还得说，这周我感到非常震惊，因为上周我们讨论了世界上最重要的未完成艺术作品是什么。

And I was also, I have to say, shocked shocked this week when, as a result of our little discussion last week about what was the most significant or important unfinished artwork in the world.

你提出了《凯尔斯书》，那是一件美好的作品。

You proposed the book of Kells, which is a lovely thing.

我并不是在争论这一点。

I'm not arguing that.

我提出的是米开朗基罗那组非凡的未完成奴隶雕像，我们还在推特上做了个投票来验证。

I proposed Michelangelo's extraordinary sequence of unfinished slaves, And we put it to the test on Twitter with a poll.

不知为何，出于某种荒谬的原因，《凯尔斯书》在投票中竟然比米开朗基罗的奴隶雕像高出好几个百分点，成为最重要的未完成艺术品。

And for some absurd reason, some ridiculous reason, the book of Kells managed to come up several percentage points ahead of Michelangelo's slaves as the most important unfinished artwork ever.

我的天，这只能归功于你那出色的口才，因为我实在想不出其他任何理由，能让米开朗基罗伟大的奴隶雕像被拉下神坛。

I mean, this can only be a tribute to your silver tongue because I I can see no other reason why Michelangelo's great slaves could have been knocked off that pedestal.

好吧，在你之前那场关于我那倒霉的天鹅论文（在托马斯·劳伦斯画作中）的投票中大获全胜后，这次总算轮到我赢你一回了。

Well, after your crushing victory in the poll earlier about my ill fated swan thesis in the Thomas Lawrence painting, I'm I'm glad to have got one back on you.

所以现在，投票比分是1比1平。

So it's one all in the polls.

哦，天哪。

Oh, dear me.

好吧，既然你在这场关于最未完成画作的投票中赢了我，那我只好认输，就此告辞了。

Well, on that awful note that you beat me in the poll for the most unfinished picture, I'm afraid that's me conked out.

我讲完了。

I'm finished.

我没什么可说的了。

I've got nothing else to say.

我希望听过这个播客的人也能去YouTube上的ZZZ频道看看一些图像。

I hope people who have listened to this podcast can also go to the ZZZ channel on YouTube and see some of the imagery.

请仔细看看那幅《奥林匹亚》，看在老天的份上，站在我这边，别站在那位可爱的本多尔的陈旧观点那边。

And please do have a good look at that Olympia, and for heaven's sake, side with me on this one and not the old fashioned views of of of of the lovely Bendor.

但即使你不同意我的看法，也请好好看看它，看看上面的其他内容，因为观看这些图片和听我们说话一样美妙。

But even if you don't agree with me, do do look at it and do look at the other things that are on there because seeing the pictures is wonderful as well as hearing our voices.

但我的话就说到这儿了。

But that's all from me.

奥林匹亚挂在我墙上的画面中，光彩照人，再见了。

With Olympia hanging on my wall where I can see her in all her glory, it's goodbye.

我也说再见了。

And goodbye from me.

下周见，各位。

See you all next week.

瓦尔蒂和本迪。

Waltie and Bendy.