70. 我最难的事

新学年伊始，教室里又响起了此起彼伏的抽鼻声和喷嚏声。从家到学校再回到家，备好舒洁超柔纸巾吧。用妥善准备迎接开学季的各种小状况，让新学期有个好开端。你肯定不想遇到需要纸巾时手边却没有的尴尬。舒洁超柔纸巾柔软吸水，能有效应对流鼻涕问题，在新学期开始之际为你和家人带来清洁与舒适。

It's the beginning of a new school year, and also the classroom sniffles and sneezes that go along with it. From home to school and back, stock up with Kleenex Ultra Soft tissues. Start the school year off the right way by preparing for the messes that come with it. You don't wanna be caught without a tissue on hand to help. Kleenex ultra soft tissues are soft and absorbent to stand up against runny noses to keep you and your family clean and comforted as the school year starts.

这个返校季，请务必准备这款师生信赖的教室必备品。无论接下来发生什么，选择舒洁就对了。

This back to school season, make sure to get the classroom essential that teachers and students can rely on. For whatever happens next, grab Kleenex.

我发现日常生活中最零碎的时间——等水烧开时、任务间隙休息时——正是学习新知识的绝佳时机。因此我开始接触大师课，这个让碎片时间变得有意义的好方法。只需每次花几分钟，我就能从世界顶级厨师、运动员、作家和企业家那里获得启发。其中詹姆斯·克利尔关于习惯的课程让我受益匪浅。

I've realized that the smallest parts of my day, waiting for water to boil, take a break between tasks are the perfect moments to learn something new. That's why I've been turning to master class. It's a simple way to make those in between moments feel intentional. I've picked up insights from the world's best Chefs, athletes, writers, entrepreneurs, in just a few minutes at a time. One lesson that really made an impact, James Clear on habits.

他说：'你达不到目标的高度，只会沦为自己系统的水平。'这句话彻底改变了我规划早晨的方式。现在我建立起了一套真正有效且能坚持的晨间惯例。我最爱大师课的原因在于它不仅鼓舞人心，更注重实用。现在我们的听众可享年度会员额外15%优惠，访问masterclass.com/hardthings即可获取。

He said, you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. That completely reframed how I approach my mornings. Now I've built a routine that actually sticks and works. What I love is that masterclass isn't just inspiring, it's practical. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/hardthings.

现在登录masterclass.com/hardthings可享15%优惠。masterclass.com/hardthings。

That's 15% off at masterclass.com/hardthings. Masterclass.com/hardthings.

无论生活带来欢欣还是痛苦，我们都能完成艰难之事。嗨。

And through the joy and pain that our lives bring, we can do hard things. Hi.

嗨。嗨，姐妹。

Hi. Hi, sister.

如果刚才的欢迎词听起来有点戏剧化甚至阴郁，那是因为我们今天要讨论一个相当严肃的话题。事实上，我甚至还没直接和Sister聊过这件事。至少过去几周里，Abby和我一直在轻描淡写地讨论这个情况。但今天我们要谈的是件严肃而悲伤的事，却又非常重要且艰难——我们存在的意义就是讨论重要的事情，嗯。尤其是当它们难以启齿的时候。

So if that welcome sounded a little bit dramatic and dread y, it's because we are gonna talk about something pretty serious today. And that topic, I actually haven't even spoken directly to Sister about any of this. Abby and I, you we have been in light conversation about this situation for the last couple weeks at least. But what we're gonna talk about today is something serious and kind of sad, but really important and hard, and that's what we do here is we talk about things that are important Mhmm. Even when they're hard or especially when they're hard.

我要坦白的是，在假期期间，我的饮食障碍症复发了。这个说法远不足以描述实际发生和持续的状况，但语言是我仅有的工具。这就是假期发生的事。今天我要在这里和大家聊聊，尝试用我仅有的语言来描述这段时间的经历。

So what we're gonna do is talk about the fact that over the holidays, I had a eating disorder relapse. And that sounds way too simple for what happened and has been happening, but I have only have words to describe things, so I I can only use words. So that is what happened over the holidays. And so today, I'm going to talk about it here with all of you. And I'm gonna just try to use words, which is all I have, to describe what I've been going through for the last bit of time.

在你深入之前，先说说此刻的感受吧。

Well, before you get into it, tell us how you're feeling right now.

有点...我担心无法准确表达。对于谈论这个困扰众多人的话题，我感到责任重大。同时也害怕——每当有人（不仅是公众人物）谈及被世俗视为'失败'的经历时，就仿佛把自己暴露在可能被轻视的风险中。但我又感到一种前所未有的踏实感，在这个播客里我很少这样，因为...这正是我擅长的事。

Feel a little bit I feel nervous to represent things accurately. I feel a big responsibility to speak about something that so many people suffer from. I feel scared because whenever anyone anyone I don't I don't think it's just in the public, anyone speaks about what the world would consider a failure. It feels like you're making yourself vulnerable to people discounting you. So I feel that that's a risk, but I also feel like a little bit grounded in a way I never feel as grounded on this podcast because I this is I know how to do this.

我懂得如何揭示真相，哪怕用令人不安的方式。正是这样我才活到今天。我清楚自己在做什么，但也明白其中风险。

I know how to, like, tell the real truth of things even in scary ways. That's how I've survived. I feel like I I know what I'm doing, but I also know that it's risky.

是啊。这种全然敞开的姿态，我觉得美得惊人。简直...

Yeah. Well, it feels like you're just opening yourself up, which I just find so freaking beautiful. And it's just I can't

你感觉如何？你一直很紧张，反复问我'确定要这么做吗？'问了不下百万次。

How do you feel? You're nervous. You've been nervous. You used ask me a million times, are you sure you wanna do this?

你是 你知道的，就是

You're You know, it's

你在无聊地摆弄大拇指

You're twiddling your thumbs

某种程度上

in a way

你从不这样。而且我也认为你很完美。我知道我们都不完美，真的。但我仍想确保你明白，无论如何，我们生死与共，这就是原因。

you never do. And I also I think you're perfect. And I know that we are all imperfect. I truly do. And yet I still wanna make sure that you understand that, like, no matter what, like, we are ride or die, and this is why.

这就是我爱你的理由，而非不爱你的原因。我觉得这并非勇气或勇敢，而是我生来就该如此，恰逢其时。而你正是

Like, this is a reason why I love you, not something to not love about you. And I think that I just I find you to be this isn't courage or bravery. Like, this is just like this is exactly what I feel like I was made for. Such a time as this. And you are

做得很好。就像今早我们离开浴室准备下来做这件事时你说的，你又问我一次：你确定要这么做吗？我说，其中一个原因是我不可动摇的信念——无论真假——我不想向所有人解释为何我如此糟糕。我真的相信，我们内心都有这些怪异、混沌、阴暗或许闪耀的野性自我，而我的使命或天赋之一，就是坦诚谈论这些。但我觉得我所揭示的，某种程度上是我们共有的真实，无论它如何体现在

doing great. And it's, you know, what you said this morning when we were just leaving the bathroom to come down here to do this, and you asked me one more time, are you sure that you wanna do this? And I said, the well, one of the reasons is because of my unshakable belief, whether this is true or not, that I'm not about to explain to everybody why I'm fucked up. Like, I really truly believe that we all have these weird, swirly, dark, maybe spark whatever this weird wild self inside and that and that one of my jobs, gifts, whatever, is to just really talk about that. But I feel like there's part of what I'm revealing that is true about all of us regardless of how it manifests in

我的生活中。这部分听起来很戏剧化。用“复发”这个词本身就够戏剧了。但如果某事是真实的，那它从头到尾都真实。如果我们说想展现自己的混乱并仍值得被爱，那么无论讨论房间凌乱、内心混乱还是其他，这个真理必须贯穿始终。

my life. And this part feels dramatic. Like, it feels dramatic to say because it you know, the whole word word relapse is dramatic. But if something is true, it's true all the way through. And if we say we we wanna show up with our mess and that we're still worthy of love, it's true whether we're talking about our house is a mess or we're talking about where our insides are a mess or we're talking about you know, it it's gotta be true all the way through.

这并不会让你成为的那个人变得不那么真实。实际上，它证明了你真心相信你所说的话，你愿意以这样的方式展现自己。所以

It doesn't make anything about who you've become less valid. It actually proves that you truly believe in what you say, that you're willing to show up like this. So

确实如此。今早我有种感觉——虽然听起来很奇怪，这个词可能不太准确——是骄傲。我感觉自己一直在隐藏这部分自我，但我并不为此感到羞耻。我对我这古怪的一面并不感到羞愧。

I do. I had this feeling this morning of this is gonna sound so weird. This isn't the right word, but pride or I feel like I have been hiding again this, like, part of myself. And I don't feel ashamed of it. I I don't feel ashamed of this weird side of myself.

嗯。但由于隐藏，我表现得好像确实羞耻一样。所以在谈论它时，我感觉这部分自我就像一位朋友，而我现在正在为她挺身而出。尽管听起来很奇怪，我就像在说：不。

Mhmm. But I've been because of the hiding, I have been acting like I do. So in talking about it, I feel like this part of myself is like a friend, and I'm like standing up for her right now. As weird as that sounds. I'm like, no.

不。不。你可以说出来。嗯。

No. No. You can speak. Mhmm.

是的。你有权出现在台面上。当有人来访时，我们不会把你藏起来。

Yeah. You're allowed to show up at the table. Like, we're not hiding you when the people come visit.

没错。正是这样。因为正是这个有时让你的生活如此艰难的自我，在另一种迂回的方式里，也是人们为之庆祝的、以不同形式展现的古怪之处。所以我们不能只在她光鲜亮丽时才爱她。即便在受伤时，我们也要爱自己。

That's right. That's right. Because this part of you that makes your life so hard sometimes is is also the part that in a swirly different way that people celebrate this weirdness that shows up in different ways. So we don't get to just love her when she's shiny and whatever. Like, we love ourselves even when we're hurting.

嗯。或许——或许更重要的是——对吧？这就是我们今天在做的事。

Mhmm. Maybe maybe more importantly then. Mhmm. Right? So that's what we're doing today.

各位，系好安全带。我们之所以这么做，正是基于刚才讨论的所有原因。这并非因为它有趣——正如我的朋友纳迪亚·博尔兹韦伯所说，我们不是从尚未愈合的伤口中创作，而是从结痂的疤痕中书写。这意味着我们要等待，直到痛苦转化为智慧，否则作品只会像求救信号，而非服务他人或艺术创作。

And Buckle up, folks. The why is the why we're doing it is for all of the reasons we just talked about. It's not it's interesting because my friend Nadia Bolzweber says we don't write from our wounds, our open wounds. We write from our scars. Meaning, we wait, right, until pain has turned into wisdom because otherwise things just seem like a cry for help instead of an act of service or a piece of art.

我认为所有规则都需要先学习、牢记并融会贯通，才能知道何时该打破它们。同时，你还需要积累足够的康复经验和人生阅历，这样即使身处伤口撕裂的时刻，脚下仍有根基可依。比如我——一个在酗酒、精神疾病、进食障碍等各方面都数次跌入谷底的人——虽然此刻感到恐惧（因为在深渊中总会暂时忘记终将脱困），但回望过去便能确信：我能挺过来，因为我信任自己。

And I think that all rules, you have to learn them and know them and and get them in your bones so that you know when to break them. And you also have to have enough, I guess, success at recovery and humaning behind you so that when you're in the middle of the opened wound, you still you still have a a grounding beneath you. Like, I know how to do this. I am someone who's been to rock bottom a few times in terms of alcoholism, in terms of mental illness, in terms of all of it, eating disorder stuff. And I kind of although I feel very scared because when you're in the middle of it, you kind of forget that you're gonna get out, I can look back on my life and know that I will because of because I have, because I trust myself.

所以此刻我既是从撕裂的伤口中发声，也是基于无数次见证疤痕愈合的经验才敢信任这个过程。此刻有妻子和妹妹相伴——她们是我世上最信任的两个人，而收听播客的你们也是我真心信赖的群体。这里让我感到社交媒体无法给予的安全感。最近我总在想：世人讨论精神疾病时，总像是已参透一切的人在指点迷津，而非真正身处其中者的自白。

So I am speaking from an opened wound, but also one that I've seen scar over so many times that I trust the process enough to speak right now. I'm also with my wife and my sister. I'm with my two people that I trust most in the world, and I'm speaking to this pod squad that I really do trust. I feel safe here in a way I don't feel on social media or whatever. Also, I have been thinking for the last few days about how mental illness is discussed in the world, and it just always feels like it's being discussed by someone who has it all figured out or who is talking about it, but not from it.

哇...这感觉很奇怪。我理解这种困境——当人处于低谷或与精神疾病搏斗时（我曾用

Wow. Which I don't know. There's something weird about it. And and I get it because when someone is in the middle of a low or when someone who struggles with mental illness you know, I used to use the metaphor of being swallowed by the whale. Like, when you're in the whale, you can't really speak clearly.

那患者该如何发声呢？嗯...但现状总让人感觉被根本不懂的人说教。就像永远在听

So how are people gonna speak from it? Mhmm. But it still makes you feel all the time like like people are talking at you that don't even understand it. Like, it's always like, here's your 10 steps on mental. But it but it's not you're not hearing from somebody in it, which is how you feel less alone.

人们只谈论病前或愈后，却从不提及正在煎熬的

And I it's like before or after, but not the middle. Like, you never hear from the middle. So I think there's something important to speaking in the middle if it's possible. And then the how I'm gonna do it is I am going to say whatever I want to say for the next hour. So I'm just gonna tell the story of the last month or so with words that are match as closely as possible the experience.

我不会顾虑是否听起来疯狂或触发他人。亲爱的听众们，如果关于进食障碍、精神疾病等创伤性话题会触发你，请立即跳过这部分内容。因为一分钟后，我将不再克制。明白了吗？

I'm not gonna worry about sounding crazy or triggering people. What I need you to do, loves, is if eating disorder talk, mental illness talk, all of this sort of traumatic talk is triggering to you, please skip this. Okay? Because I'm not gonna worry about it starting in a minute. Okay?

所以我需要你照顾好自己，这样接下来的一个小时我就不用照顾你了。好吗？你觉得这样可以吗？

So I need you to take care of yourself so that I don't have to take care of you for the next hour. Okay? So does that sound okay?

听起来很棒。我是说

Sounds wonderful. I mean

你怎么样，姐妹？

How are you doing, sissy?

你感到紧张吗？我是说，我感觉我有太多情绪了。我感到好奇，感到难过，也为你感到骄傲。

Do you feel nervy? I mean, I feel I feel so many things. I feel curious. I feel sad. I feel proud of you.

我觉得自己有点帮不上忙。你知道吗，这很疯狂，因为我刚在假期结束后才得知这件事，我们刚共度了两周时光，我当时有点...天啊。她经历了这一切，我明明就在她身边，却又完全不在场。所以我...我为你做这件事感到骄傲，接下来的一个小时以及之后所有时间，我都想支持你。

I feel, like, unhelpful. I feel that, you know, it's wild because I first learned about this when right after we left from the holiday break, and we had just been together for two weeks, and I felt a little like, oh, man. She was going through all of this, and I was right there with her, but I was not right there with her at all. And so and I'm I'm I'm proud of you for doing this, and I'm, wanna support you for the next hour and then all the hours after that.

这条信息送给所有曾觉得自己的文胸还算合适的人。我们在讨论文胸。没错。ThirdLove的文胸以贴心细节解决常见问题，让你无需将就。

This is a message for anyone who's ever felt like their bra was just fine. We're talking about bras. Yes. Bras made with thoughtful details to solve common problems. ThirdLove is here so you don't have to settle for good enough.

ThirdLove是由深谙寻找合适文胸之痛的女性创立的公司。这是个普遍问题——太多人穿着不合身的文胸却不自知。十多年来，ThirdLove通过创新设计和优质材料，重新定义舒适文胸的标准。想保持全天清爽舒适吗？

ThirdLove is a company founded by women who know what struggling to find a bra feels like. This is a huge issue. So many people out there are wearing the wrong bra and they don't even know it. For over ten years, ThirdLove has been redefining what a comfortable bra looks and feels like, focusing on innovative design and high quality materials. Wanna stay cool and comfortable all day?

ThirdLove提供创新的温控面料，满足你的需求。想要额外的提升效果？需要平滑塑形？甚至想增加一个罩杯尺寸？他们都能满足。

ThirdLove offers innovative thermoregulating fabric that has you covered. Looking for a little extra lift? Need smoothing? Even need to add a cup size? They've got it.

而且贴合度无与伦比。ThirdLove认为每个人都值得拥有完美合身的内衣，因此他们提供从AA到H杯超过60种尺码。他们甚至还有独家半杯尺寸设计——这也是我最喜欢的部分——这意味着如果你介于两个尺码之间，每次都能获得完美贴合。别再勉强接受普通内衣，为你的身体量身定制解决方案吧。

And the fit, it's unmatched. ThirdLove believes everyone deserves a bra that fits perfectly, which is why they offer over 60 sizes from double a through h. They even have exclusive half cup sizes, which is my favorite part, which means if you're in between sizes, you can still get a perfect fit every time. Stop settling for average bras. Get solutions made for your body.

使用优惠码podcast fifteen，在thirdlove.com购买完美合身内衣可享15美元优惠。网址thirdlove.com，优惠码podcast fifteen。好吧，回顾过去，我觉得...请你告诉我，因为当我深陷某事时，往往记不清之前的状态。但我确实记得新冠疫情初期对每个人都很特殊。

Get $15 off your perfect fit bra@thirdlove.com with code podcast fifteen. That's thirdlove.com, code podcast fifteen. Well, what okay. So looking back, I I feel like and and you please tell me because I'm not always good at when I'm in something, I can't always remember what I was like before in any way. But I do know that I remember at the beginning of COVID, which was a strange time for everybody.

对我们而言，特殊之处在于《Untamed》突然爆红，我每天要接受无数采访。我记得花了很多时间讨论自己在性取向、家庭、婚姻甚至性别议题上的解放，也反复提到我仍未摆脱对身体和食物的强迫性思维的挫败感。

And for us, it was strange in the way that Untamed was, like, blowing up, and I had 70,000 interviews a day and all of that. I do remember spending a lot of time talking about having untamed myself in many, many ways in terms of sexuality and our family and marriage and gender stuff even, and and talking a lot about how frustrated I was that I still have not broken free from compulsive thinking about body and food.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？我之所以提起这些，是因为当我试图追溯这次复发时，我说可能是两周前...

Right? So the reason I say that is because when I try to trace back this relapse, and I say, oh, it

或者一个月前...

was two weeks ago or a

一个月前，我当时想，好吧。我们可以追溯那种，我们称之为逐渐变得奇怪的过程。就像是慢慢陷入这种状态。我记得大约两年前，强迫性思维又开始出现了。

month ago. I'm like, well, okay. We can trace the, like, getting weird as we call it. Like, the the slow fade into this. I remember feeling compulsive thoughts come back right around a couple years ago.

因为我们之前也讨论过这个问题，对吧？

Because we would talk about it too. Right?

是的。我是说，如果你想了解具体细节的话，就像你当时正在做准备，以防我们忘记。你那时即将开始全国巡回签售会。

Yeah. I mean, I think that if you want to know, like, the the logistics of it, it's like you were preparing so, like, lest we forget. You were about to go on a nationwide book tour.

好的，那就是在那之前的事了。

Okay. So it was before then.

所以那是在新冠疫情爆发之前。通常在你开始巡回签售前，会有很多准备工作要做。明白吗？你的整个团队为这次巡回签售计划了整整一年。嗯。

And so it was before COVID hit. And oftentimes before you go on the book tour, there's a huge to do. You know? Like, your whole team has planned an entire for a whole year, this book tour. Mhmm.

你准备了全套的服装。然后要登台演出。站在舞台上，准备去谈论你刚刚创作的这部艺术作品。它即将面向全世界。所以当我们说到变得奇怪或再次变得奇怪时，我想先谈谈所有的背景情况

You have a whole situation of clothes. And so be on stage. Stage, and you are about to go talk about this this this art that you've just created. It's now gonna go out into the world. So when we talk about getting weird or getting weird again, I just want to to talk about all of the context

嗯。

Mhmm.

那曾经是，现在也是那样一个时期的一部分，当你开始变得，我们说话很奇怪，但是，就像，你开始有点痴迷于你的身体，我认为。

That was and is a part of those times when you start getting like, we talk weird, but, like, you start to obsess, I think, a little bit about your body.

是的。有一种元素，好吧。事情即将失控，我会变得非常脆弱，因为人们会盯着我看，我会站在舞台上，倾诉我的心声。有一种感觉，我能做些什么让自己刀枪不入？

Yeah. There's a there's an element of, okay. Things are about to be so out of control, and I'm gonna be so vulnerable because people are gonna be staring at me, and I'm gonna be on stages, and I'm gonna be talking about the pouring my heart out. There's a feeling of how can I what can I do to make myself invulnerable?

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为这伴随着很多，在我强迫性的扭曲思维中，好吧，我可以把自己变成一个机器人，在身体、面部等方面。就像，我可以让自己完全干瘪，不像人，非人。嗯。因为一个女人在世界上的样子始终是一种脆弱，因为任何人都可以对任何事说三道四。所以当你即将走出去，说一些本身就具有争议性的事情，你知道人们会对你说的话和你这个人有无数话要说，如果你能控制其中一部分。

And I think that comes with a lot of, like, in my compulsive twisted thinking, well, I can make myself a, like, robot in terms of body, face, all of that. Like, I can make myself completely unjuicy, unhuman, inhuman. Mhmm. Because the way that a woman looks in the world is a vulnerability all the time because anybody can say shit about whatever. And so when you're about to go out into the world and say things that are controversial in themselves, and you know people are gonna have a whole shit ton to say about what you're saying and who you are if you can control one part of it.

是的。他们不能说这个。他们不能说我是怎样怎样的。所以控制你的身体，这很有趣。是的。

Yeah. They can't say this. They can't say I'm whatever. So controlling your physicality, that's interesting. Yeah.

那是真的。

That's true.

而且你还要，你知道，讲述你的这个爱情故事。所以书中所有的内容我不知道。我只是认为在这一切的背景下非常重要。就像，你实际上是在把你的见解展示出来，让人们阅读嗯。你的见解。

And you were also about to, you know, to deliver your this love story. So everything that was in the book I don't know. I I just think it's really important in terms of the context of it all. Like, you are literally turning your insights out and letting people read Mhmm. Your insights.

是啊。当我回头看那些照片时，我简直瘦得离谱。真的，回看那些照片时感觉特别有意思。好吧。

Yeah. And when I and you when I look back on pictures of them, I was really fucking skinny. Like, it was something when I look back on those pictures. So interesting. Okay.

接着事情发生了，巡演取消，我们回到家，然后疫情就爆发了。对吧？

So then that happens, and then the tour gets canceled, and then we're home, and then the pandemic happens. Right?

没错。

Yep.

所以你说得对。我可能已经陷入...是的...那种思维模式里了。

So you are right. I was probably already in. Yep. Those that way of thinking.

在疫情开始前的几个月里。

For a few months before the pandemic started.

而且我想说，对任何人而言，焦虑是需要控制的。比如如果你在面临大事前感到焦虑，锻炼、流汗、运动这些都能缓解焦虑。你会觉得它能消除紧张感，其实就是把自己累垮，把焦虑消耗掉。

And also, would say for anybody you know, there's an anxiety controlling. Like, if you're if you have some anxiety going into a big thing, working out, sweating, working out, like, all of those things are anxiety. You you feel like it's gonna take the edge off. You just exhaust yourself. You exhaust the anxiety out.

所以我可能当时运动过量了。嗯。我记得的是，在某段时间里，对食物和身材的过度思考变得越来越强烈。下一个记忆节点是体重秤又出现了——我肯定是在车库哪个角落找到了它。

So I was probably working out too much. Yeah. So what I know is that at some point, the the thinking, the overthinking about food and body just felt like it was getting more and more intense. The next marker I remember is the scale came back. I must have found a scale somewhere in our garage.

是啊。

Yeah.

我打碎了它。

I hit it.

我不明白为什么它还留在家里。但那就像是一个标志，你知道的，体重秤进了我们的浴室。几个月又几个月过去，我就……你懂的，一开始我打算一个月称一次体重，后来变成一周一次，再后来一天一次，最近更是发展到一天八次。每次进卫生间都要称。给你个背景——我记得有段时间我甚至想，要不摘下发带再称吧。

I don't know why it was even still in house. But but that's just like a marker for, you know, the scale came into our bathroom. Over months and months, I just you know, it was like I was I'll just weigh myself once a once a month, then it was once a week, then it was once a day, then it was you know, most recently, it was like eight times a day. Like, every time I went into the bathroom. Just like I to give you context, I at the one point, I remember being like, I'll just do this without my headband on.

就像，我要摘下发带称体重。就是那种程度的强迫症。

Like, I'll just weigh myself without my headband. Like, that kind of level of obsessing.

我想提醒你，那时候我们也在想办法让自己在疫情期间更忙些。所以我请了个教练来车道上训练我们。没错。我当时是这么想的——因为那时我们公开讨论过，比如我开始出现强迫倾向，我就觉得好吧——

I just wanna remind you that that at the time too, we were trying to do things to keep ourselves busier in the pandemic. So I hired a trainer to come and train us on the driveway. Yep. And so this is what I thought. Because at the time, we were having kind of open conversations about, like, you know, I'm starting to obsess, you know, and I'm like, okay.

我觉得我们应该去锻炼，这样你的身体会变强壮。当你感受到身体的力量时……但没想到这简直是火上浇油

I think that what we should do then is we should work out so that you your body is strong. So that you know that your body is strong, but I think that that was like gas on The fire

对我而言？

in me?

是啊。

Yeah.

我早就知道。我是说，有天我看着那位女士就想，我绝不会再回到这条车道了。没错。就是觉得不喜欢，这氛围不适合我，后来真没再去过。

And I knew that. I mean, I looked at that lady one day and was like, I'm never coming back to this driveway. Yeah. Like, I don't like this. This isn't the right vibe for me and didn't come back.

但事情就是这样，你总得尝试各种可能。

So but that's what happens. You try all these things.

嗯。

Mhmm.

懂我意思吧？所以那几个月里我其实吐过几次，大概两三次吧。然后那两周里——

You know? So I think that I did actually throw up a couple of times or maybe two or three times over those months. And then the the two weeks Did

艾比知道这事吗？不知道。好吧。

Abby know about that? No. Okay.

不，你确实告诉过我。

No. You did tell me.

我说过吗？嗯。

I did? Mhmm.

是啊。你跟我说你变得有点奇怪，而且，好像还发生了那么几起冰淇淋事件。

Yeah. You told me that you were getting weird and, like, there was just a couple of ice cream incidents.

我说过。嗯。哇哦。我真行。好吧。

I did. Mhmm. Wow. Good for me. Well, okay.

就是那样，然后就在圣诞节的时候。

So that, and then right at Christmas.

今年圣诞节？

This Christmas?

今年圣诞节。对。全家人都在这里，我觉得，你知道，过去一年我们家里发生了一些事情，大部分是好的，比如讨论了一些我们家人以前没谈过的事，揭露了一些家庭里旧的动态关系，这些肯定最初促成了一个可能本该是……的环境。

This Christmas. Yeah. The fan the whole family was here, and I think that, you know, we have had some family stuff come up over the last year that has been mostly good in terms of, like, talking about things that our family hasn't talked about, bringing up some old stuff dynamics in our family that probably, for sure, originally contributed to an environment that would have been an

允许了这个

allowed this

饮食失调。要茁壮成长。对，对。这些事被提出来了，但我不确定，听众们，当你处理原生家庭问题时。

An eating disorder. To flourish. Right. Right. So that stuff has been brought up, but I don't know, you know, people who are listening when you're dealing with stuff with your family of origin.

就像被揭露出来，这已经是绝大多数人根本不敢迈出的惊人而荒谬的勇敢一步。嗯。就是指出那些可能以某种方式造成伤害的家庭动态，尤其在一个充满爱与善意的家庭里。那些不够好的部分很难被提及。但之后会有一段悬而未决的时期，问题其实并未真正解决。就像处在一个奇怪的中间状态——房间里的大象已被指认，但它依然杵在那儿。

It's like brought up, and that's an amazing, ridiculously brave step that most people don't do at all Mhmm. Is bring up dynamics that may have been harmful in one way or another, especially in a family so full of love and so full of goodness. It's hard to bring up the stuff that wasn't good enough. But then there's this period where it's not nothing's taken care of really. It's just like this weird time, this weird in between where the thing the elephant in the room has been pointed out, but, like, it's still there.

没有解决。

No resolution.

从来没人讨论房间里那头大象的后续。你心想：现在我们他妈的有头大象杵在这儿了。

No one ever talks about that part of the elephant in the room. You're like, but now we just got a fucking elephant in the room.

就是这种感觉。

Like That's how it feels.

没什么用。这不像...好吧，本应该...本应该像是为那头大象...

Not that helpful. It's not like, well, it it should be it should be, like, excusing the

开脱，但事实并非如此。是的。

elephant from the room, but it's not. Yes.

它只是在喊出来

It's just calling out

房间里的大象，但它仍在践踏你的一切。

the elephant in the room, but it's still trampling over all your shit.

我是说，表现得你知道，向所有家庭治疗师致敬。因为我觉得那是你遗漏的部分。

I mean, act you know, shout out to all the family therapists. Is there because I feel like that's a part you've missed.

是啊。你如何解决你刚刚指出的问题？

Yeah. How do you resolve the problem you've just pointed out?

没有大象移除队。所以就有，比如，你知道的，煤矿里的金丝雀或者那些指出大象的家庭。但当你指出来时，你只会觉得自己像个傻瓜，因为大家会说，好吧，多谢。你指出了大象，但现在我们都在盯着大象看。

There's no elephant removal crew. So then there's the, like, you know, the canaries in the coal mine or the, you know, whatever, the families who have the elephant pointer outer. But then when you point it out, then you just feel like a jackass because then everybody's like, well, thanks a lot. Yeah. You pointed out the elephant, but now we're all staring at an elephant.

干得好。你知道吗？总之，背景是圣诞节到了，这一切都发生在2021年圣诞节的最后一周。就是刚过去的那一周吗？我每晚都在呕吐。

So way to go. You know? So, anyway, the context is that that Christmas happens, and all of this is to lead up to the last week of Christmas, the last week of two thousand twenty one. Is that what it just was? I was throwing up every night.

对吧？所以元旦那天，你们离开了。姐姐，你和约翰在元旦那天走的。

Right? So New Year's Day, you guys leave. Sister, you and John leave it on New Year's Day.

是的。嗯。

Yeah. Mhmm.

所以你和孩子们还有约翰在新年那天离开了。我们的朋友，我们亲爱的朋友，凯蒂和卡姆。嗯。给我们发短信，就在你们离开几小时后，说，我们在你们镇上。能来打个招呼吗？说实话，如果是其他人，我们可能会假装找不到手机，因为我们在减压，想让房子恢复安静。

So you and the kids and John left New Year's Day. Our friends, our dear friends, Katie and Cam Mhmm. Texted us, like, a few hours after you left and were like, we're in we're in your town. Can we come say hi? And, like, literally, if there was anyone else, we would have pretended that we couldn't find our phones because we were, like, de stressing and, like, getting the quiet house back.

但因为是凯蒂和卡姆，我们就说，快过来吧。那一刻我有点感触，因为那时我还把这一切藏在心里。嗯。这对我来说很棘手，因为我觉得我似乎在对自己隐瞒什么，而这正是我对清醒的定义。当我打破清醒时，就是连自己都在隐瞒秘密的时候。

But it was Katie and Cam, so we were like, get over here. And so I had this moment because at this point, I'm still just keeping this all to myself. Mhmm. And that's a tricky place for me because I think I kinda know I'm keeping a secret from myself, and that that's how that's the my definition of my own sobriety. It's when I'm a break in sobriety is when I am keeping a secret even from myself.

嗯。就是这样。但这对我来说更复杂，因为从10岁起，我的生活很大程度上就是吃吃吐吐之类的。所以对我来说，这感觉就像生活本身。我可以轻易切换回那种状态，哦，生活就是这样。

Mhmm. That's that's it. But that's even tricky for me because so much of my life, you know, since I was 10 years old was kinda was was this life of, like, eating and throwing up and and whatever. And so it kind of just feels like life to me. I can very much switch back into, like, oh, this is just what life is.

有些人去散步。有些人去看心理医生。

This is how I can some people go for walks. Some people go to a therapist.

对你来说，这是条老路。很熟悉。

It's a well myself. Well trod path for you. It's familiar.

是的。很熟悉。嗯。凯蒂和卡姆坐下来后，有人问，你们对2021年有什么打算？你知道，她们是女同性恋。

Yeah. It's familiar. Yeah. But so Katie and Cam sat down and every I think somebody said, well, what are your intentions for 2021? You know, they're lesbians.

我们是女同性恋。这就是为什么我们之间没有寒暄客套，直接就能深入最私密的话题。

We're lesbians. This is you don't we you there's no small talk. We get right into, like, our deepest right.

顺便说现在是2022年。虽然没有明确分界，但2022年的意图就是你原本的打算，对吧？

And it's 2022, incidentally. There's no demarcation, but intentions for 2022 is what you intended. Right?

我是这么说的吗？好吧。你刚才说的是2021年。

Is that what I said? Okay. You said 2021.

但这是土拨鼠之年（指重复枯燥的生活），所以很有趣。

But it's the groundhog year, so it's fun.

没错。艾比说了些很棒的话，卡姆也发表了看法，然后他们都看向我。而我脑中一片空白——我完全无话可说，连一句真心话都挤不出来。

Exactly. And so Abby said something and awesome, and Cam said something, and they all looked at me. And I had no I had nothingness. I I had nothing to say. There I could not think of one true thing to come out of my mouth.

于是我有点慌，就扯了些工作的事。要知道如果有人问起我的工作，那从来不是我真正想谈的。但当时...我不知道该怎么解释为何这对我像红灯警报，除了意识到：我在欺骗自己。我...我失去了所有真实的起点。那种空白，那种虚无，看着沙发上三个我信任的人——他们可都是我生命中前十重要的人啊。而我就这么呆坐着，什么都说不出来。

And so I kind of panicked and just said something about work, which is I never ever if anybody asks me about like, what is my work is not what I go to. But I had and so I don't know how to explain why that was such a red flag to me other than, oh, I'm lying to myself. I I I have nowhere true to start. That blankness, that nothingness, that looking at three people on my couch who I trust, you know, 10 top 10 people in my life. The three of them were on that couch, and I had nothing I had no they're there anymore.

就像...这完全不是'她终于做自己了'的时刻，反倒像'她去哪了？我到底在哪？' 我被谎言层层包裹，任何说出口的话都像屁话，因为唯一确定的真相是：我又搞砸了。

Like, it was it's the opposite of the there she is moment. It was like, where'd she go? Like, where am I? I have no I've I have a I have lies blocking any truth, anything that I could could say is bullshit because the truest thing I know is I'm fucked again.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而我并没有说出来。为什么我不说？嗯。既然我最真实的感受是恐惧，因为我又回到了这个可怕的地方，那我为何不坦白？我不说是因为我在刻意隐瞒，这意味着我完蛋了。

And I'm not saying that. Why am I not saying that? Mhmm. So since the truest thing I know is that I'm scared because I'm, like, back in this scary place, then why am I not saying that? I'm not saying that because I am deliberately hiding, and that means I'm fucked.

不是因为我再次呕吐或怎样。而是我坐在这里，面对这三个我深爱、了解和信任的人，却没有向他们吐露心声。

Not the fact that I'm throwing up again or whatever. It's the fact that I'm sitting here with these three people that I love and know and trust, and I'm not saying to them what my thing is.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我完全理解，因为这关乎验证。我们内心总在挣扎：什么是真实的，什么不是；哪些属于内在，哪些属于外在。从来就没有非黑即白的答案，就像我现在——

I get that completely because it's the verification. It's like we live so much in this conflict within ourselves of, like, what is true, what is not true, what is the inside of me, what is the outside of me. There's never any black and white in, like, what I'm

嗯。

Mhmm.

我展现给世界的形象与内心现实之间的谎言是什么？这是个关于真实与虚幻的灰色沼泽。但在那些罕见的时刻，当你清楚什么是真实的、最重要的、明确的，却选择沉默——那才是爆发的临界点，你会恍然：我们已深陷其中了。

What is a lie between what I'm presenting to the world and what is my internal reality? It's a such a gray swamp of of what is real and what isn't. But but then when you know what is in those rare, rare moments like that where you know what is true and you know what's most important and you know what is clear, but you're not saying it, that is the explosion where you're like, oh, it it We're in the deep now.

是的。这是

Yes. This is

它。记得当时坐在沙发上看着你，心想，哇。真的吗？她竟然想不出任何东西。嗯。

it. Remember being on the couch looking at you like, wow. Really? She couldn't come up with a thing. Mhmm.

我甚至不知道你是否说过你像是，我我不知道。我不你你只是我做不到。

I don't even know if you said you were like, I I don't know. I don't you you just I couldn't do it.

我实在想不出任何东西。

I could not conjure up anything.

是啊。我那种情况以前从未发生过。知道吗，我们我们聊。我们聊了很多。嗯。

Yeah. I that that has never happened before. Know, we're we talk. We talk a lot. Mhmm.

当你走了。聊

When you Gone. Talk

走了。是的。

gone. Yeah.

你离开是因为你没有展现真实的自己。这就是你离开的原因。

You're gone because you weren't bringing you. That's why you were gone.

是的。不是那样的

Yes. It's not that

你无法触及它。是因为你还没准备好将它呈现出来。

you couldn't access it. It's because you you weren't ready to bring it forward.

没错。这就是为什么一开始我说有种感觉，骄傲这个词不准确，或许是解脱感。嗯。今天我说话的状态，就像是对沙发上那一刻的反面。我不在乎了。

Yes. That is why at the beginning of this when I was saying there was a level of, like, pride isn't the right word, but maybe it's relief that Mhmm. I'm talking today is, like Yeah. Is the opposite of that moment on the couch. Like, I don't care.

随便吧。说我是疯子。说我失败了。说我复发了。说我什么都行。

Fine. Say I'm crazy. Say I failed. Say I'm relapsed. Say I'm whatever.

但别——可我依然在这里。无论那个'我'是谁，都还在这里，并且要继续发声。

But don't but I'm still here. Whoever that I is is still here and is gonna speak.

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所以凯蒂和卡姆离开了。嗯。我那天再没说过话。然后我不确定你是否记得这个，我不会提名字，但第二天早上，你有个朋友打电话给你，他正处于戒酒的第二天。事实上我当时就坐在那儿，你开着免提之类的，我听着一个刚戒酒的人说着所有初期戒酒者会说的话，带着那种戒酒初期的傲慢，还有那种美好，你能听出他们即将崩溃的迹象，以及那种我不知道的感觉。

So Katie and Cam left. Mhmm. I didn't say anything for the rest of the day. And then I don't know if you remember this, and I'm not gonna use any names, but the next morning, you had a friend call you who was in their second day of sobriety. And the truth is that I sat there, you were on, like, speakerphone or something, and I sat there listening to a very early in sobriety person say all the very early in sobriety stuff with all the, like, hubris of early sobriety and all the, like, beauty and, like, things you can hear them say that they're gonna crash and burn about and, like, the I don't know.

我发现自己竟然有点评判和烦躁。嗯。我自己在洗碗时听着。嗯。听着这个刚联系艾比的美丽人类，他正处于戒酒的第二天，而我却感到评判和厌恶。

I actually found myself feeling a little bit judgy and annoyed. Mhmm. By myself doing the dishes, listening. Mhmm. Like, listening to this beautiful human who has just reached out to Abby who is in their second day of sobriety and feeling judgy and ugh.

像是厌倦了？厌倦。

Like jaded? Jaded.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后他们挂断了电话，我又往洗碗机里放了一个杯子，心想，我完蛋了。我想我当时说的是‘宝贝，我完蛋了’——这大概是我的原话。

And they hung up, and I put one more glass in the dishwasher and was like, I'm fucked. I think I said I think those are my words. Babe, I'm fucked.

你实际说的是：我本来想等到...因为孩子们当时还在家。他们本打算

You actually said, I was gonna wait until because the kids were still with us. They were going

去

to

克雷格家那天下午。他说我本想等孩子们去克雷格家再说，但我完蛋了。我就说，好吧。好吧。嗯。

Craig's house that afternoon. He said I was gonna wait until the kids went to Craig's, but I'm fucked. I was like, okay. Okay. Mhmm.

然后你就直接告诉我了。

And then you just told me.

对。对。然后我告诉了你，之后你的反应简直太棒了。

Yeah. Yeah. And then I told you, and then you were completely amazing.

确实。

I was.

是的。哦。因为你表现得并不戏剧化。你没有震惊。你温柔、充满爱意、喜欢拥抱，没有一丝恐惧的闪烁。

Yes. Oh. Because you were undramatic. You were unshocked. You were soft and loving and huggy, and there was no flick of terror.

你脸上没有那种‘你不是你所说的那个人’的表情。那就像是一种当然，现在我们会一起度过这个难关。所以你真的很棒。然后我们告诉孩子们那天我们要去远足。是的。

There was no you're not who you said you were in your face. It was just like a, of course, and now we will get through this. So you were amazing. And then we told had told the kids we were gonna go for a hike that day. Yeah.

所以在这里，我试图解释关于食物、身体、饮食失调、心理健康和精神疾病的这件事。我一直觉得，你知道，有所有这些科学词汇，有抑郁，有焦虑，有饮食失调，有精神疾病，所有这些。但是，有时候它在我体内的表现方式就像是，有一个黑洞，或者一个浑浊的峡谷存在于我体内，我可以跳进去。明白吗？但我的工作是待在这个漩涡般黑暗能量的井盖或峡谷的陆地一侧。

So here is where I try to explain this thing about food and body and eating disorders and mental health and mental illness. So I have always felt like, you know, what there's all these science words, and there's depression, there's anxiety, and there's eating disorders, there's mental illness, and all these things. But, like, the way it manifests inside of me at times is, like, there is this black hole or, like, a canyon of murkiness that is exists inside of me, and I could jump in. Okay? But, like, my job is to stay on the land side of this manhole or canyon of swirly dark energy.

但这个峡谷有某种诱惑力。它不全是恐怖和，你知道的，哭泣和咬牙切齿。它还有点紫色、漩涡状和闪闪发光。所以它就像

But there is something seductive about the canyon. It's not all terror and, you know, weeping and gnashing of teeth. It's like a little bit purple and swirly and sparkly too. So it's like

就像拉斯维加斯。

It's like Vegas.

它不像拉斯维加斯

It it's not like Vegas

一点也不像。

at all.

我只是在开玩笑。

I'm just kidding.

好吧，拉斯维加斯。但拉斯维加斯很可能就是艾比的峡谷。所以我们先把这个放一放。那是另一集的内容了，艾比。

Okay. Vegas. But Vegas may well be Abby's Canyon. So let's just let's just table that for a second. That's another episode, Abby.

就这样。

That's it.

就这样。

That's it.

这完全相反，因为拉斯维加斯全是灯光、人造和浮夸的东西。而这里有种怪异的灵性氛围。懂吗？我也说不清，这不是...

It's like the opposite because Vegas is all, like, lights and man made and bullshit. This is, like, spiritual in a weird way. Okay? I don't know. It's not it's it's

这正是它的诱人之处。

That's the seductive part.

可能是内心倾向于美化这件事。是的。

It might be the internal tendency to glorify this thing. Yeah.

我本来想说，你对它的描述是它具有灵性。对吧。无论这是真是假。但在你的故事里，当你看着肯尼亚时，它是诱人的，因为它可能比海岸线那实实在在的现实更高深或更深刻。

I was gonna say your story about it is that it is spiritual. Right. Whether that may be true, it may not be true. But in your story, when you look at the Kenyan, it is seductive because it is maybe a higher or deeper reality than the actual tangible reality of the shore.

可能是这样，没错，但也因为留在陆地上是如此艰难，需要付出太多努力。

It could be, yes, that, but also it's because it is so hard to and it requires so much work to stay on the land.

是的。陆地本身正是其诱惑力的一部分。完全正确。

Yes. It's not being the land is part of its seduction. Exactly.

它象征着不必那么拼命工作，就像一种屈服。嗯。所以我想说的是，当我吃东西时，身体行为只是我靠近悬崖的方式，跟进食和食物他妈的一点关系都没有。懂吗？就像我那些自残的朋友，或者用各种不同方式的朋友。

It represents not having to work so damn hard, like a succumbing. Mhmm. So what I'm trying to say is that when eating food, body stuff is my way of getting closer to the canyon, it has nothing fucking to do with eating and food. Okay? It's like my friends who are cutters or my friends who all all of the different things.

这些都是他们一步步接近悬崖的方式。跟吃东西他妈的根本无关。所以当我对待饮食变得古怪时，人们会说，哦，找个私人教练吧。或者说，我们来聊聊营养学。这就像在说，好吧——

Those are their ways of inching closer to the canyon. It has nothing fucking to do with the eating. So when I get weird about eating and food, and it's like, oh, we'll get a personal trainer. Or it's like, well, let's talk about nutrition. It's like the equivalent of saying, okay.

我又一次把自己点着了。而有人却说，我们可以探讨一下烟花技术来解决问题。

I have once again set myself on fire. And someone saying, well, what we can do to explore that is let's just sit down and talk about pyrotechnics.

是啊。你上过防火安全课吗？嗯。就像，根本不是那么回事。那太初级了。

Yeah. Do you have you taken a fire prevention safety class? Yeah. Like, it's like not no. That's elementary.

也许不。是的。就像，我们想知道，为什么宇宙层面上我是个纵火犯？火的工作原理不是那样的。对吧。

Maybe no. Yeah. Like, we're to we wanna know, like, why cosmically am I an arsonist? It's not like how fire works. Right.

明白吗？我说的是那个那个那个痛苦黑暗峡谷。我不是在说该死的营养问题。懂吗？嗯。

Okay? I'm talking about the the Canyon Of Of Of Sorely Dark. I'm not talking about freaking nutrition. Okay? Mhmm.

所以我们得去徒步，实际上我决定了就这么做。比如，我们反正没什么比和家人一起轻松徒步、待在阳光下、享受户外和所有这一切更好的事了。

So we have to go hiking, and I actually decide we're gonna do that. Like, we are there's no point in we're gonna continue what could be better than going on an easy hike with the family and staying in the light and being outside and all the things.

我当时不太确定。我觉得你得说服我相信那

I wasn't so sure. I think that you had to convince me that that

那样没问题吗？

was That was gonna be okay?

是的。

Yes.

对。我当时就想那就去吧，我们就去那个地方，大概二十五分钟路程或者

Yeah. I was like So we go, and we're just going to this, like, place that's twenty five minutes away or

随便吧。而且

whatever. And

在开车去的路上，这一切显得如此耐人寻味——首先，我正处于某种创伤状态中，因为我刚向你坦白过，就像把秘密从暗处拽到阳光下，再也无法回头了。此刻它变得真实。当它只存在于你体内时，即便正在发生，即便你亲眼看见自己呕吐，仍可能觉得那并非真实。

on the car ride there, it was just so interesting because first of all, I was in a bit of trauma because I had just told you I had just it's like to take yourself out of the secret place to where someone can see it in the light, it's like there's no turning back. Now it's real. It doesn't always feel like it's real when it's inside of you even though it's happening and you can see yourself throwing up. It's like it could still be not real.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以在这种创伤中，我觉得最能描述此刻感受的词就是：我真的觉得自己疯了，无论这个词意味着什么。我们开车前往时，我注意到自己的呼吸变得异常浅薄，无法深呼吸。我就那样僵坐在副驾驶座上。

So in a bit of trauma, I think the best way that I can describe this part is that this is when I really feel crazy, whatever that means. So I we're driving there. I noticed that my breathing is so shallow. I can't take a deep breath. I'm sitting there in the passenger seat.

艾比负责开车，孩子们在后座，我记得狗狗也在车上。整个场景就像一场彻底的混乱，那种充满欢笑的混乱。

Abby's driving. The kids are in the back. I think we had the dogs with us. It was just like utter chaos. Like, everybody happy chaos.

而我却喘不过气来。我意识到自己正以人类极限的静止状态存在着，不敢深呼吸。这现象如此有趣，因为它与你躲藏时的状态如出一辙——就像房间里有个杀手。嗯哼，明白吗？

And I can't catch a breath. And I realize it's like I'm being as still as humanly possible and not breathing deeply. And it's so interesting because it is the same way of being that you would be if you were hiding because there was, like, a killer in the room. Mhmm. Okay?

所以你拼命不想被发现，像被冻住般无法呼吸，仿佛有个跟踪狂。然后你开始思考为何会有这种反应，最终恍然大悟：亲爱的，那个跟踪狂其实一直都在你体内。就像那句老话——

So you're, like, trying not to be found. It's like being paralyzed, being not being able to breathe because there's a stalker, and then you're thinking hard about why you're behaving that way, and then you realize, oh, no. No. The stalker for you, honey, has always been inside of you. Like, the call is coming

从房子里面传来的。是的。

from inside the house. Yes.

这就是我正在思考的事情。然后我意识到，我环顾四周，觉得每个人都在听泰勒·斯威夫特之类的音乐。我内心与外界发生的事情之间的认知失调是如此之大——外面全是光明与快乐，而内心却像一团乱麻。我发现自己紧紧抓着自己的手臂，以至于肯定已经淤青了，我抓得太紧了。

So this is what I'm thinking about. And then I realize, I look around, and and I think everyone's listening to like Taylor Swift or something. Like, the the cognitive dissonance between what's going on inside of me and what's going on outside of me is so it's like all light and happiness on the outside, and the inside is like this swirly thing. And I realize that I am holding so tightly to my arm that, like I mean, for sure, I'm bruising myself. I'm holding so tight.

确实握得很紧。就像，那是一种常态

Do have a grip. Like, that's just like a general state

以至于你能感受到那种紧握。

that you can their grip.

比如，有时候我们只是牵着手看电视，我就得主动把手抽出来，因为她已经不知不觉把握手变成了虎钳般的紧握，我的血液循环都被切断了。你总是不自觉地这样做。

Like, sometimes we'll just be holding hands watching TV, and I have to actually, like, move my hand, like, because she's she's now completed and gotten the grip into a vice grip, and my my circulation is being cut off. Like, you have a tendency to just do it.

你会说这不是偶尔，而是每次吗？

Would you say that not sometimes, but every time?

每次都是。

Every time.

每次。每次我们手牵手时，你非得

Every time. Every time we're holding hands, you have to

我得，那个，稍微扭动一下

I have to, like, kinda wiggle

是啊。

Yeah.

然后你就得道歉。

And you have to say sorry.

对不起。对不起。

Sorry. Sorry.

对。其实不必的，但就是

Yeah. You don't have to, but that's

我有

I have

关于那个认知失调的问题。所以你在前一周积极清除时，并没有感到那种认知失调，直到你告诉艾比之后才有的？因为理论上，你可能在整个过程中都知道这件事正在发生，而世界却浑然不觉地发展着。但只有在你告诉艾比之后才有这种感觉？

a question about that cognitive dissonance. So you, for the week prior, when you were actively purging, you did not feel that cognitive dissonance because and only after you had told Abby you had that cognitive dissonance? Because theoretically, you could have had that the whole time that you were knew this was happening and the world was just unfolding around you obliviously. But it's only after you told Abby that you had that?

我只是觉得这是阶段性的。嗯。我觉得就像...现在成真了。现在成真了。是的。

I just I think it's phases. Mhmm. I think it's like It's real now. It's real now. Yeah.

嗯。是的。没有回头路了。没有回头路了。不能反悔。

Mhmm. Yeah. No turning back. No turning back. No take backs.

不能反悔。不能反悔。我们就在这儿。确实。嗯。

No take backs. No take backs. We're here. Exactly. Mhmm.

于是我意识到自己绷得太紧了，我记得环顾四周时，他们都在跳舞。他们都在跳舞唱歌。我看着他们的手，那些手在空中挥舞。当时我想：他们如此信任地心引力的样子真美。然后我就想，这他妈是什么意思？

So I realized that I'm holding myself so tight, and I remember looking around, and they were all dancing. They were all dancing and singing. And and I'm looking at their hands, and their hands are all flailing around. And my thought was, it is so beautiful how much they trust gravity. And then I was like, what the fuck does that mean?

就像，为什么你不试试...我在车里紧紧抓着。我抓得那么紧生怕自己飞走，而这些傻子们...好像地心引力对他们来说是真实存在的。他们甚至不需要用力固定自己或保持完整。是的。我只是在告诉你我当时的想法。

Like, what why don't you try like, I'm holding on in the car. Like, I am holding so tightly so that I do not fly away, and these fools are just it is as if gravity is real to them. They do not even have to hold themselves down or in or together. Yeah. I'm just telling you what my thoughts were at that time.

现在坐在这张沙发上，我明白这听起来有多疯。但当时我就觉得，哇，看看他们都在变这个魔术。他们都这么放松。然后我们就去徒步了。

Right now sitting here on this couch, I understand how bat shit crazy that sounds. But in the moment, I was like, wow. Look at this magic trick they're all doing. They're all just so loose. So we get to this hike.

我们在散步。这里真的非常、非常美。我们此刻在帕洛斯维第斯。明白吗？我们正沿着悬崖边行走，突然发现了

We're walking. It's really, really beautiful. And we're in Palos Verdes. Okay? And it we're on going around this cliff, and we come across

天啊。

Oh my god.

这段楼梯。记得吗？你当时

This staircase. Okay? Do you rememb

我我现在明白你当时

I I now understand what you're

你现在明白那时发生在我身上的事了吗？记得我怎么突然停在楼梯前凝视许久，然后走了下去吗？这完全不是我的作风。我可是全世界最不爱冒险的人。

Do you understand now what was happening to me during that time? Do you remember how I stopped at that staircase and stared for so long and then walked down it, which I never do. I'm like the least adventurous person in world.

我当时特别困惑，心想她是不是紧张？因为蔡斯已经走下去。我还在想，她是不是担心蔡斯会摔下去？她为什么要下去？太奇怪了。

I was so I was like, is she nervous? Because Chase had walked down there. I was like, is she nervous that Chase is gonna fall? Like, why is she going down there? That's so weird.

不。每次下车徒步时，我满脑子只想着一件事：还要多久才能回到车上？如果我在车里都不相信地心引力，在悬崖边就更不可能相信了。一切都太危险了。我们站在俯瞰海洋的悬崖上，眼前出现了这段楼梯。

No. The second I get out of the car to go to a hike, all I'm thinking is, like, how long will it be till we get back in this car? Like, if I don't trust gravity in the car, I'm sure as hell not gonna trust it on a cliff. It's all very precarious. We're on this cliff overlooking the ocean, and there's this staircase.

这太疯狂了。这是世界上最长的楼梯。它从悬崖顶端开始，而且

And it's wild. It's the longest staircase in the world. It goes from the top of this cliff, and it's

但看起来确实如此。

but it looks like it.

没错，看起来是这样。它不知怎的一直延伸到水面，但你只能看到上半部分，看不到下半部分。走到中途时，整个楼梯的上半段都在阳光下。

Right. It looks like it. And it, like, somehow goes all the way down to the water, but you can only see the top half of it. You can't see the bottom half of it. So and then halfway down, the whole top of the staircase is in the light.

你能清楚看到。然后有个平台，像是楼梯的加宽部分。那就是你所能看到的全部了。所以我就想，好吧。

You can see it. And then there's this platform. It's like bigger part of the staircase. And then that's all you can see. So I was like, okay.

首先我得走下去到达那个平台。于是我走下楼梯，到了平台处，然后楼梯转向，剩下的部分直通海洋，全都笼罩在黑暗中，阳光照不到。这时我就走回顶端想看清全貌，明白吗？

I have first, I have to walk down and get down to that platform. So I walk down the staircase, and there's that platform, and then the the staircase turns, and then the rest is just all down to the ocean, and it's all dark. It's out of the sun. So that's when I walk back up to the top so I can see the whole thing. Right?

后来我才知道那个平台——我不得不谷歌一下，因为我实在想不起楼梯中那个部位的专业名称——它叫楼梯平台。

And I realize that platform, which I had to Google because I could not freaking think of what that was actually called in a staircase. It's called the landing.

我正想说是个平台来着。

I was gonna say a landing.

一个平台。那个平台就是我曾经所在的地方

A landing. The landing is where I was

那天。是的。

that day. Yes.

我感同身受。是的。是的。是的。

I feel that. Yes. Yes. Yes.

那个平台至今仍是我驻足之处

The landing is where I still am today

是的。

Yes.

几周后。明白吗？但我想说的是，平台就是你站立的地方，你可以选择任何方向。嗯。

Weeks later. Okay? But here's what I'm saying. The landing is where you stand, and you can go either way. Mhmm.

你可以低头看，而下方如此诱人，因为它更轻松。看起来无需费力，又身处黑暗。你可以在其中迷失自我。无人能看见你。你只需一步步向下沉沦。

You could you look down, and the down is so seductive because it's easier. And it looks like it'll take less effort, and it's in the dark. You can get lost in it. Nobody can see you. You can just keep descending one step at a time.

或者你转身再次抬头看向那该死的楼梯。对吧？就像每次只想着迈一步，你想着你那可怜的小腿已经重复了这么多次，你想着那刺眼的阳光，仿佛所有人都能看到你的挣扎，而楼梯看起来如此陡峭。于是有那么一刻，你就停在了平台上。这就是我现在的处境。

Or you turn and you look up at that motherfucking staircase again. Right? Just like one step at a time and you think about your freaking poor little legs who have done this so many times, and you think about, like, the sun that's so freaking bright, and, like, everyone can see your struggle, and it just looks so steep. And so for a minute, you just stay on the landing. And so that's where I am right now.

我...我在平台上，唯一确定的是——对此我真的很高兴——我不会往下走。

I I'm on the landing, and I only know, which I'm really delighted about, that I'm not going down.

我不...你怎么知道的？

I'm not How do you know that?

因为我了解自己，我知道关于自己的事实是：一旦到达平台，就不会再往下。我完全相信自己明白所处位置时不会继续下坠。我相信疲惫的双腿，相信那道光，相信这段攀登。

Because I know myself, and I know what I know about myself is that once I get to the landing, I will not go further. I trust myself completely to not descend further when I know where I am. I trust my weary little legs. I trust the light. I trust the climb.

当你

When you

呕吐的时候，你是在黑暗中的平台下方还是平台上？我有点搞不清楚。

were throwing up, were you below the landing in the darkness or on the landing? I feel confused.

正在往下走。对吧？

Walking down. Right?

我不知道。我是说，我觉得这个比喻在这里有点说不通了，宝贝。我不太确定自己当时到底他妈在楼梯的哪个位置。

I don't know. I mean, I think this is where metaphor kind of breaks down a bit, babe. I don't know exactly where I was fucking on the staircase.

不，听着。我只是想知道，因为作为伴侣，这是重要的信息。

No. Listen. I just wanna know because this is as a as a partner, this is important knowledge.

我是说，平台层是第零天。就像，平台层就是当你

I mean, the landing is day zero. Like, the landing is when

看着

you look

自己的时候，你和你之间不再有任何谎言。明白吗？在到达平台之前，那感觉根本不像楼梯。更像是自由落体般的'哦，有意思'。

at yourself, and there are no lies between you and you anymore. Got it. Right? The land it doesn't feel like a staircase until the landing. It feels like a free fall of Oh, interesting.

虚无感。你并不是在有意识地一步步往下走。只有事后回想才觉得那是楼梯。在前一天，这个楼梯的比喻对我而言毫无意义。

Nothingness. It doesn't feel you're not you're not deliberately stepping down and down and down. It only feels like the staircase. That staircase wouldn't have made any sense to me the day before.

我明白了。

I see.

你必须站在楼梯平台上才能认出那是平台。

You have to be on the landing to recognize the landing.

就像是对认知的再认知，实际上构成了这段阶梯。是的，就像是在形成它。这真有趣。

It's like an acknowledgment of acknowledging it actually forms this staircase. Yeah. It's like a forming of it. That's really interesting.

我的意思是，平台是一个让你改变方向或让攀登者休息的地方。所以平台也有其优雅之处——有足够的空间休憩，对吧？可以重新积蓄力量再次攀登。

I mean, a landing is a platform that allows you to change directions or allows a climber to rest. So there's a graciousness of the landing too. There's enough space to rest, right, to, like, gather your strength up for the climb again.

哇，确实。

Wow. Yeah.

这就是我现在的状态。我正处在平台上。对我而言，实际意义在于接下来会有新的攀登——可能包括治疗和各种尝试。但这次我对自己充满信心。

So that's where I am now. I'm on the landing. And what that means to me in in practical terms is that there will be a next there will be a climb. There will be it will probably include therapy and all kinds of different things. But I will say that I have a confidence about me this time.

真的，我确实这么认为。这次攀登会不同，感受也会不同。45岁的我了解并信任自己，而且经历足够多后，我甚至带着某种好奇——那天你们和那个刚戒酒两天的人聊天让我烦躁，正是因为那人听起来完全没有倦怠感。

Like, I really do. I think the climb will be different. It will feel different. But I'm 45 years old, and I know myself, and I trust myself. And I also have been through this enough times to have a level of curiosity because I think what was annoying me about that conversation you were having with that person in their second day of sobriety was that that person sounded the opposite of jaded.

当你意识到我们始终都他妈站在平台上时，会有种初学者的敬畏感重新降临。迈出第一步时那种略带魔力的敬畏感会回归，而在你为自己站在第409,000级台阶上洋洋得意时却消失了。嗯。所以我正以积极心态期待再次攀登时的魔力，同时在平台上等待时，对自己格外温柔谨慎。

There is an awe, a beginner's mind that returns to you when you realize that we're all on the fucking landing all the time. There is a returning of awe when you start that first step that feels a little bit magical, that isn't as present when you're feeling really big and bad about yourself because you're on step 409,000. Mhmm. So I'm I have a positive anticipation about the magic that will come as the climb begins again. And I'm just being super tender and careful and gentle with myself as I wait on the landing.

这就是我今天想说的。最后，我想直接对你说，亲爱的听众。确实，我们可以完成艰难的事情，而且我们将继续一起完成它们。两天后，我们将在着陆点带来更多爱的寄语，到时见。再见。

And that is what I wanted to say today. And so with that, I just want to say directly to you, sweet listener. It is true that we can do hard things, and we will keep doing them together. See you back here in two days with more love notes from the landing. Bye.

我为你带来Tish Melton和Brandi Carlisle。

I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlisle.

我追逐欲望，确保自己得到了应得之物。

I chased desire. I made sure I got what's mine.

而我继续

And I continue

我们能应对艰难。我曾跌至谷底，感觉却像一颗崭新的星星。问题不在我身，有时事物就是会分崩离析。

We can do hard. I hit rock bottom. It felt like a brand new star. I'm not the problem. Sometimes things fall apart.

而我继续相信

And I continue to believe

最优秀的人是自由的。是的，我们能完成艰难的事情。是的，我们能完成艰难的事情。

the best people are free. Things. Yeah, we can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things.

《我们可以做困难的事》是与Cadence十三工作室联合制作的。请务必在苹果播客、Odyssey或您获取播客的任何平台给节目评分、评论并关注。特别是如果您真的很喜欢这档播客，请一定要给它评分和评论。如果不喜欢，也不必在意，没关系的。

We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence thirteen Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.