BTC258：《清晰法案》、比特币AI教育与支付——对话Parker Lewis（比特币播客）

所以是的。

So Yeah.

它将有很强的动力确保比特币挖矿与AI计算、推理计算并存。

It's gonna be highly incentivized to ensure that there's Bitcoin mining alongside AI compute, inference compute.

这将是比特币挖矿和电池的结合，是的。

It'll be a combination of Bitcoin mining and batteries Yeah.

供电能力从哪里来？因为矿工可以通过关闭需求来响应，而电池既可以作为额外的需求来源，也可以作为额外的供应来源。

Of where can supply be because miners can respond by turning off demand, and batteries can be both incremental sources of demand, but also incremental sources of supply.

所以我认为这两者的结合将成为一项巨大的资产。

So I think a combination of those two become a massive asset.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我再跟你讲讲从电池角度来看的另一件事。

And I'll tell you the other thing too from a battery standpoint.

比如，如果有人认为电池比比特币矿机更好，这本身就是一个非常复杂的话题。

Like, if people were making the argument that they think batteries would be a better choice than Bitcoin miners, which, you know, that's a whole rabbit hole in and of itself.

我认为，当你看看有多少自动驾驶出租车，以及特斯拉一家公司未来将有多少汽车通过电池存储能量，如果把这些汽车全部联网，它们能进行多少推理计算时，你就明白了。

I think when you look at how many robo taxis and how many cars just Tesla alone is gonna have out there that is storing its energy via battery and how much inference compute those cars alone could do if you network them all.

这又是另一个深入探讨电池路径与比特币之间差异的复杂话题。

Like that's a whole another rabbit hole of going down the battery path versus Bitcoin.

我的观点是，你已经拥有一个极其强大的汽车网络，这些汽车本身就是一种现成的、可存储能量的资源。

It's already I guess my point is, you're already going to have an insanely robust network of cars that are on a network as an additional kind of, like, material that's out there for stored energy.

但没错，这本身就是一个非常深奥且漫长的话题。

But, yeah, that's a very deep and long rabbit hole in and of itself.

但让我们回到去年十二月，你在老公园发表了题为《比特币是最伟大的不对称机会》的演讲。

But let's go to, so back in December, you gave a presentation at Old Parkland called Bitcoin is the greatest asymmetry.

你提出了三个支柱。

You laid out, three pillars.

第一个是，这一机会的规模是无与伦比的。

The first one was the magnitude of the opportunity is unmatched.

第二个是，采用是可能的，但并非必然。

Second one was adoption is probable, but not possible.

第三个是，评估的范围是有限的。

And the third is the surface area to evaluate is finite.

你能为我们梳理一下这个框架吗？你当时做这个演讲真正想达成什么目标？有没有什么核心要点想和我们分享？

Can you walk us through the framework, what you were really trying to accomplish with the presentation, and any just, like, core highlights that you have for us?

当然可以。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

这次演讲是继我两年前在同一地点所做的演讲之后进行的。

And this presentation followed a presentation that I gave two years ago at the same venue.

Old Parkland 是一个非常有趣的地方，它位于达拉斯，是一个家族办公室园区；另外，一个有趣的旁注，虽然几乎无关紧要——它实际上是肯尼迪总统在达拉斯遇刺后被送往的地点。

And Old Parkland's a really interesting place because it's a family office park in Dallas, but also just interesting side note, almost irrelevant, but it was actually where JFK was taken when he was shot in Dallas.

当时整个 Parkland 是 Parkland 医院，后来被停用，随后被克劳家族收购并改造成一个办公园区。

It was whole Parkland was Parkland Hospital that later was decommissioned and then bought by the Crow family and turned into an office park.

但有很多家族办公室都在那里运营。

But there's a lot of family offices that work out of there.

这是一个美丽的校园，能够在这里就比特币发表演讲，环境非常宜人。

It's a beautiful campus, and it's just a beautiful setting to be able to give a talk on Bitcoin.

这个地方我并不陌生，因为我以前住在达拉斯的时候就去过。

And it was a place that I was familiar of from my time when I lived in Dallas.

我于2023年受邀去那里发表演讲。

I was invited to give a talk there in 2023.

那次演讲的主题是我经常听到的一个核心问题，当时的演讲标题是《比特币不是对冲工具》。

And the subject of that talk was the principal question that I kept hearing come up, which was, and the title of the talk then was Bitcoin is not a hedge.

在2023年那段时期，通货膨胀严重，而比特币的价格从2021年到2023年持续下跌。

And in that period of time, was 2023, inflation was running rampant and the price of Bitcoin was going down process of 2021 to 2023.

在我第一次去那里演讲时，我解释说：这是一个很多人关心的紧迫问题。

In that first talk that I gave there, I explained, Hey, this is a pressing question that a lot of people have.

这说不通。

It's not making sense.

让我来帮大家理清一下这个问题。

Let me help bring some clarity around it.

现在比特币价格在10万美元左右，人们开始讨论量子计算以及量子风险。

Now that Bitcoin's sitting at a 100,000 ish, there's a discussion around quantum and there's quantum risk.

但在我自己的朋友圈里，那些还没认真看待比特币的人，真的被‘比特币已经涨到10万美元’这个想法困扰着。

But I've been experiencing just in my own network of friends that are not yet, you know, kind of taking Bitcoin seriously, really getting hung up on this idea that Bitcoin's at a 100,000.

他们觉得这太贵了。

The sense of it's too expensive.

我错过了机会。

I've missed it.

我的精力和关注点已经转向了人工智能。

My energy and focus is going on to AI.

我在这次演讲中提供了一些背景，目的是说明比特币仍存在多大的不对称性，或者我们究竟有多早，以及描绘我们未来的方向。

And I gave, you know, some of the backdrop to that talk was to frame how much asymmetry remains in Bitcoin or how early we really are and to paint a picture of where we're going.

通常，根据听众的不同，或者当我谈论某个比特币相关的投资时，我喜欢先直接给出结论，再倒推回去。

And oftentimes, depending on what the audience is or if I'm talking about a certain bet to Bitcoin, I like to jump to the conclusion and then work backwards.

所以在这次演讲中，我其实想传达的是：你并没有错过它。

So in this talk, was really trying to frame of like, Hey, you haven't missed it.

我知道你的注意力可能已经转向了人工智能，但你的精力应该放在比特币上，因为它是世界上最大的不对称机会，而且这种不对称非常独特——通常人们提到不对称机会时，想到的是赚钱的机会，那些通常是低概率的押注。

I know that your energy has probably shifted onto AI, but your energy needs to be on Bitcoin because it is the greatest asymmetry in the world, and it's a very unique one in the sense that a lot of times people think about asymmetric opportunities as opportunities to make money, different asymmetric bets that are generally low probability.

比特币的独特之处不仅在于它有巨大的上涨空间，更在于它是最基础的不对称机会，因为货币是经济结构的基石。

What makes Bitcoin so unique is not just that there's great upside in it, but that it's the most foundational asymmetry because money sits at the foundation of the economic structure.

此外，还存在一种负向不对称性，不仅体现在货币贬值上，更体现在货币贬值的最终结局——恶性通货膨胀上。

But also this idea that there's negative asymmetry to not only currency debasement, but the end game of currency debasement, which is hyperinflation.

是的。

Mhmm.

我在这次演讲中提到的一个主题是：如果你没有在早期投资苹果、谷歌或特斯拉，现在再回过头来看某个AI初创公司，假设你错过了那些机会而没有赚钱，你的生活也不会因此变差。

That one of the themes in the talk that I talked about is that if you didn't invest in Apple early or Google early or Tesla early and you could bring that forward to the day thinking about some AI startup, like, if you if you passed on one of those opportunities and didn't make money, your life didn't get worse off.

是的。

Mhmm.

我在本次演讲中向听众传达的是，比特币特有的不对称性在于：如果你不采取行动，‘不作为’本身也是一种行动，因为你的钱正在被不断侵蚀。

What I communicated to this crowd in this talk is that one of the uniqueness of asymmetry specific to Bitcoin is that if you don't take an action, no action is an action when it comes to your money that's getting destroyed.

阿门。

Amen.

如果你不参与，你的生活实际上会变得更糟，因为最终你的钱将不再为你工作。

And that if you don't participate, your life will actually get worse off because ultimately, your money's gonna stop working.

这意味着的不仅仅是你的购买力下降，而是你的生活水平也在下降。

What that means is not just that your purchasing power declines, but your standard of living declines.

所以我深入剖析了这三个框架。

So I really broke into those three frameworks.

我们可以逐一探讨每个框架的背景。

We can go into each one of just, like, the contextualization.

但没错，由于我们处于非常早期的阶段，存在巨大的正向不对称性和正向风险，回报可能呈数量级增长。

But, yes, there is massive positive asymmetry, positive risk due to orders of magnitude up because of how early we are.

当你以我提出的某些数据点为框架来理解时，这是第一点。

When you understand it in the framework of certain of the data points that I raised, that's number one.

第二点是，根据定义，大多数不对称事件发生的概率都很低。

Second one being, by definition, most asymmetric events are low probability.

比特币正变得越来越具有概率性，我谈到了比特币发展到何种程度、其达到的绝对规模以及各种重大里程碑，包括德克萨斯州购买比特币，同时也开始理解保障比特币的算力规模，以及围绕支付领域所进行的工作，比如推出比特币支付。

Bitcoin is increasingly probabilistic, and I talked about ideas of how far Bitcoin's become, the absolute scale that it's at, various different major milestones, including the state of Texas buying it, but also just starting to understand scale of power that is securing it, the work being done around payments, where launching Bitcoin payments.

而第三个方面是负向不对称性，因为人们通常将不对称性理解为投资中巨大的上行空间相对于有限的下行风险，比如三十比一。

And then that third column, there is negative asymmetry because while people think of often asymmetry as it relates to investments as great upside relative one:thirty to

但在这种情况下，不对称性也可能意味着上行空间有限而下行风险巨大。

the limited downside or limited relative downside, in this case, asymmetry can also mean limited upside and great downside.

这种动态正是法币所存在的状况。

That's the dynamic that exists in fiat currencies.

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我们稍微再谈一下第二点，因为我认为，对于那些可能是第一次听的人，或者最近才接触比特币的人来说，他们听到关于概率与可能性的讨论时，可能会觉得你是个狂热分子，因为你声称它非常可能成功。

Let's hit on the second one just a little bit, because I think for somebody that would maybe a first time listener or just kind of coming to Bitcoin more recently, they might hear this discussion about probability versus possibility, and maybe say you're a zealot because you're saying that it's so probable.

那么，帕克，你会如何向刚接触这个话题的人解释这一点呢？

So how would you address that for somebody that is just showing up, Parker?

帕克：我所讨论的观点中，在谈到概率之前，我认为它其实蕴含在同一个想法里，这也是我看待概率的方式：评估比特币的范围是有限的。

Parker Well, of the ideas that I talk about is that before I get to the probability, I think it's encapsulated in the same idea, and it's certainly how I think about probability, is that the surface area to evaluate Bitcoin is finite.

而评估它会转化为概率，因为如果我把比特币看作是二元的——它要么成功，要么失败。

And evaluation it comes into probabilities because if I think about Bitcoin as being binary, it either works or it doesn't.

如果它不成功，那就不是轻微的失败。

If it doesn't work, it's not marginal.

在我看来，它的价值会归零。

In my mind, its value goes to zero.

比特币能否成功或失败，取决于它是否能在无需信任的前提下可信地执行其固定供应量。

Everything about Bitcoin working or not working is whether Bitcoin can credibly enforce its fixed supply without the need for trust.

以及在所有逆境和所有对手面前，比特币作为自治系统能否持续生成区块，而这些区块最终代表的是对比特币固定供应量的执行。

And whether against all odds, all adversaries, whether Bitcoin as a autonomous system can continue to solve blocks, what those blocks ultimately represent is the enforcement of Bitcoin's fixed supply.

而这种固定供应量的本质在于，它代表了一种无法被印制的货币形式。

And the substance of that fixed supply is that it represents a form of money that can't be printed.

是的。

Mhmm.

对于世界上其他任何可能被考虑投资的事物来说，其评估范围必然是无限的。

So with everything else in the world that someone might consider investing in, the surface area is necessarily non finite.

问题不在于某物是否成功或失败。

It's not necessarily whether something works or doesn't work.

它在多大程度上如此。

It's to what degree does it.

某物可能会失败，但即使它没有失败，这算成功吗？

Something could fail, but even if it doesn't fail, is it a win?

这是二垒打吗？

Is it a double?

这是三垒打吗？

Is it a triple?

这是本垒打吗？

Is it a humerun?

从这个角度看，比特币的逻辑更简单：好吧，先验证这个假设。

That it makes Bitcoin simpler in that way to say, okay, let me test the assumption first.

如果比特币确实具有固定供应量，那么这种观点——经济体系会收敛于一种货币形式——并回到金本位，世界收敛于金本位，并不意味着100%的全球都使用同一种货币，而是意味着存在一个长尾，其中99%的经济活动使用同一种货币。

If it were to be true that Bitcoin does have a fixed supply, is this idea that economic systems converge on one form of money, and you can go back to the gold standard and the world converging on a gold standard doesn't mean a 100% of the entire world works on one form of money, but it means that there's a long tail that 99% of it does.

他们可以观察自己的生活。

They can look to their own lives.

他们每天只接触一种货币。

They only interact with one form of money on a daily basis.

有人声称比特币是一种无法被印制的货币。

And here's someone saying that Bitcoin's a form of money that can't be printed.

如果这一特性成立，是否会促使世界趋同于它？

And if it were true that that property held, would that cause the world to converge on it?

这是思考这个问题的简化方式。

That's the simplified way to think about it.

当我进一步延伸，考虑比特币今天的状况时。

When I extend that out to say, okay, well, let's look at where Bitcoin is today.

它已经存在了十七年。

It's been around for seventeen years.

它存在的时间已经足够长，让得克萨斯州这样的机构——你知道，从投资角度看，政府机构本质上是保守的——

It's been around long enough for the state of Texas, which you know, states any government institution from an investment perspective, is inherently conservative.

也足够让贝莱德这样的机构推出一只持有比特币的ETF，让得克萨斯州通过立法，经过众议院、参议院和行政分支的批准来购买比特币，而他们确实这样做了。

Been along long enough for an institution like BlackRock to launch an ETF to hold it, state of Texas to pass legislation going through the house, the senate, the executive branch to buy it, and then they did.

看看像保障比特币网络所消耗的电力这样的指标，我估计大约在20到30吉瓦之间。

Looking at metrics like the amount of power that's securing the Bitcoin network, which I would put at an estimate of 20 to 30 gigawatts.

为了给你一个参照，一个大型制造工厂的耗电量大约是五兆瓦，嗯。

And to give someone a context of, like, a large manufacturing plant has five megawatts Mhmm.

我们讨论的规模比最大的制造设施还要大上好几个数量级，嗯。

That we're talking orders of magnitude larger than the largest Mhmm.

制造设施。

Manufacturing facilities.

然后看看比特币挖矿现金费率在演示中的趋势，我使用了两年前的一个数据点。

And then looking at the trend of where the Bitcoin mining cash rate has gone in the presentation, I used a data point from just two years ago.

人们认为比特币波动性很高，但你看到的是，为保障比特币网络而持续上线的算力，正以更线性的方式稳步增长。

People look at Bitcoin being highly volatile, but you see this just steady increase of our concern continuing to come online in a more linear fashion, securing the Bitcoin network.

接着，你开始看到终局逐渐成形，像Square这样的大型上市公司开始启动相关系统，使得使用Square软件终端进行支付的四百万人只需点击一个按钮。

And then you see the end game starting to take shape with companies like large public companies like Square beginning to turn switches on such that 4,000,000 people that use Square for payments on a software terminal hit a button.

如果他们想开始接受比特币作为支付方式，就根本不需要做任何改动。

And then if they want to start accepting Bitcoin as payments, they don't have to change anything.

直接满足他们当前的需求。

Meets them right where they're at.

也就是说，十七年过去了，看看电力投入和关注度的变化，我们从哪里起步，又走到了今天。

That to say, Hey, seventeen years in, the amount of power, the amount of interest, look at where we've gone from to where we are today.

如果有什么能够破坏比特币的技术供给及其激励机制，这种情况就会被打破。

What causes this to break is if there was something that could undermine Bitcoin's tech supply and the incentives around it.

正如我对某人说的，你不必像我那样使用概率。

Then as I said to somebody, said, You don't have to use the probability the same way I do.

你必须接受的是，这件事是非黑即白的。

What you have to accept is this thing is binary.

一切的基础在于其固定供应量的可信度。

The fulcrum that everything rests on is the credibility of its fixed supply.

比特币越大，存在时间越长，它就越难以被实质性地破坏，也越难以被阻止。

The larger that Bitcoin becomes, the longer that it exists, the larger it becomes, the harder it tangibly becomes to undermine, the harder it becomes to stop.

所以即使你把概率设定为1%或2%，我可能会把它定在90%到99%。

And so even if you put the probability 1% or 2%, I might put it at 9099%.

我不期望别人看到同样的方程式时，会像我一样认为它是概率性的。

I don't expect somebody to look at the same equation and come to it as probabilistic as I believe.

即使你大幅折扣这一概率，根据这个框架中另外两个要素——即收益的绝对不对称性以及如果你判断错误将面临巨大下行风险——即便你认为只有1%的概率，你也必须对此有所敞口。

Even if you discount that heavily, the equation given the other two pieces of the framework of how absolutely positive asymmetric the skew is and that there's great downside if you were to be wrong, that even if you're discounting it and saying there's a 1% probability, you still have to be exposed to it.

因此，我认为这实际上更容易评估，因为它是非黑即白的。

And so I think that it's easier to actually evaluate because it's binary.

但同样，你可以大幅折扣它，却依然得出相同的结论，只是程度不同而已。

But again, you can discount it heavily and arrive at the same conclusion just to a different degree.

是的。

Yeah.

我会为刚才听到这些的人做个总结。

And I'll summarize this for anybody who was hearing that.

帕克的意思是你需要持有仓位。

Parker's saying you need a position.

他想说的是，你的投资组合中需要有一些比特币。

You need to have some Bitcoin in your portfolio is what he's saying.

我同意。

And I agree.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你已经把一切都摆出来了。

I mean, you lay it all out there.

关键在于你为此赋予的金额和数量。

And it's the amount and the quantity that you would attribute to that.

就像你说的，到底用什么数字，完全取决于个人的看法。

And like you're saying, it's completely up to the eye of the beholder as to what numbers they wanna slap on there.

但说概率是零，你知道，如果有人想说它是零，他们当然可以说它是零。

But saying that the probability is zero, which, you know, if a person wants to say it's zero, they can say it's zero.

但如果你说概率是零，一旦错了，后果会非常严重。

But, you know, the skew on if you're wrong is quite brutal if you wanna say it's zero.

所以我想聊聊这个牛排指数。

So I wanna talk about this rib eye index.

我觉得这挺有趣的。

I think this is pretty fun.

为了给你贴上一些你一直在发布的数据，你从2020年以来连续五年追踪了同一家商店里同一块肋眼牛排的价格。

And just to slap some numbers on this that you've been posting, you've been tracking the price of the same rib eye steak at the same store since 2020 for the last five years.

你最新的更新显示，这段时间累计通胀率达到72.5%，如果有人在计算的话，这相当于年化19%，远高于官方的CPI数据。

Your latest update showed a 72.5% cumulative inflation over that period, and that's 19% annualized if anybody's keeping track, which is a far cry from the official CPI.

这个数字甚至高于许多人所说的美国M2增长率，后者在同一时期年化约为8%到9%。

It's even higher than what many people say the m two growth rate is here in The US, which is around eight or 9% annualized over the same period.

你对这个怎么看？为什么这很重要？

What's your take on this, and why is this important?

你知道，首先，这是一种绝佳的方式，能浓缩世界上正在发生的一切，因为肋眼牛排不会说谎。

You know, one, it's a great way to distill everything that's happening in the world because the rib eye doesn't lie.

它仍然很受欢迎。

It's still desirable.

对吧？

Right?

它稀缺且受欢迎。

It's scarce and desirable.

所以这需要付出努力。

So it's It requires work

来生产。

to produce.

食物、能源和金钱是构成我们经济体系的三大基础性运作系统。

And there's food, energy, money as kind of three key working systems that are very foundational to our economic system.

这也是对那些声称无法简化事物的法币经济学家的一个很好的反驳。

It's also a great troll to the fiat economists that say that you can't distill things down.

这确实是一种过度简化，但它的核心理念是：通胀是一个向量，无论你是否大量消费肋眼牛排，你都应当关注自己生活中实际消费的东西，并以此衡量通胀。

It is an oversimplification, but it is this idea that inflation is a vector that whether or not you consume a lot of rib eyes, you need to look at the things in your life that you consume and measure inflation based on those things.

因为如果美联储说CPI是2.7%，但你去CVS或沃尔格林药店时发现物价上涨得快得多，或者你坐飞机去看家人，以前300美元的机票现在涨到600美元——真正的通胀其实是你所消费的商品和服务。

Because if the federal reserve is saying that CPI is 2.7%, but you're going to CVS and Walgreens and things are rising at far higher rates, or if you're getting on planes to go visit family, or a flight used to cost $300 and now it costs $600 That inflation is really the goods and services that you consume.

如果你的收入增长跟不上你的通胀率，最终结果就是你的生活水平下降了。

And if your rate of inflation is not keeping pace with your wages, the net consequence to that is your standard of living has declined.

所以我吃很多牛肋排。

And so I consume a lot of rib eyes.

我喜欢吃牛肋排。

I enjoy eating rib eyes.

当你观察同一个地方某种基本商品且其本身没有变化时，这能真实地反映价格的实际变化情况。

And when you look at something as basic as a commodity in the same place that doesn't change, that it's a true unobstructed view of how prices are actually changing.

食物同时也就是燃料。

And food is fuel at the same time.

如果你吃很多鸡肉，并开始关注同一种鸡肉，你就不能用鸡块替代鸡肉，因为那可能不是同一种鸡。

If you eat a lot of chicken and start paying attention to the same chicken, you can't swap out a chicken for chicken nuggets because that might not be the same chicken.

但请追踪你所在地区相同的基本商品，观察它们随时间的趋势，因为这才是衡量相对价格实际变化的更好方法，而不是美联储或劳工统计局告诉你的那些数据。

But start comping the same basic commodities and see how they're trending over time in your area because that's actually a better measure for how relative prices are actually changing versus what the fed or the BLS are telling you.

它们确实在变化。

They're changing.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，关于肋眼牛排这一点，它在很大程度上非常纯粹，因此是一个很好的指标，因为你所说的，很多食物都被替换了。

I mean, on the point on the ribeye too is it's so pure for the most part that it's a great index because like you're saying, so much of the food is just being replaced.

食物的成分正被更便宜、营养远不如以前的劣质材料所取代。

The ingredients of the food is being replaced with just absolute garbage that's cheaper and not nearly as nutritious.

现在你可能会说，肋眼牛排是用玉米喂养的，而不是草饲的。

Now you can make the argument on the rib eye that it's corn fed and not necessarily grass fed.

但我记得在2020年你刚开始观察时，几乎所有牛排都是玉米喂养的。

But I think back in 2020, which is when you started this, everything was pretty much corn fed anyway.

我们在普通杂货店买的牛排本来很可能就是玉米喂养的，所以现在依然如此。

Were buying at a regular grocery store was probably corn fed anyway, so it still is.

是的。

Yeah.

如果真有什么变化的话，他们可能反而换成了更差的东西。

There's a chance that if anything, they might have substituted out for something worse.

在那段时间里，他们并没有让品质变得更好。

They didn't make it better over that period.

是的

Yeah.

所以这至少是最基本的程度。

So it's like that that's the the minimum degree.

是的

Yeah.

但同时，我想说的是，这又回到了法定货币通胀的负不对称性这个观点上。

But also, like and I say this in a way that and it comes back to this idea of negative asymmetry to Fiat inflation.

几天前我去了一趟CVS，买了八样东西。

I went to CVS a few nights ago, and I got eight things.

不是。

No.

我去的是沃尔格林药店。

I went to Walgreens.

买了八样东西。

Got eight things.

一些基本的东西，比如米尔德丽德的布洛芬、垃圾袋、消毒喷雾，还有一些维生素C软糖之类的，一共八样东西，花了109美元。

Basic things like, Mildred's Motrin and trash bags and disinfectant spray and some vitamin C gummies or something, like eight things, a $109.

通货膨胀已经失控了。

Inflation is it is off the charts.

这远没有达到CPI的水平。

It's nowhere near CPI.

远没有达到——物价变化得更频繁了。

It's nowhere near- Prices are changing more frequently.

人们都在留意这一点。

People are observing it.

现实是，通货膨胀正在扼杀全国大多数人的生活，这非常严重。

There's a reality that it is suffocating a large majority of the country and it's serious.

就像Ribbon指数的一部分那样，它确实是真实的。

It's like part of the Ribbon Index is like, it is true.

这是一个衡量通胀的绝佳指标。

It is a great measure of inflation.

这同时也是嘲讽法定货币经济学家的一个绝佳方式。

It is also a great way to troll fiat economists.

但另一方面，这就像在说：嘿，存在负不对称性。

But on the other side of it, it's like, hey, there is negative asymmetry.

我在演讲中提到的一点是，我谈论恶性通胀并不是为了制造悲观情绪，而是因为这种想法令人不安。

And one of the things I mentioned in the talk was that I don't talk about hyperinflation to be a doomer, and it's uncomfortable to think about.

但这也是逻辑上的最终结局，而不作为本身就是一种行动。

But it's also the logical end game and no action is an action.

而且情况已经变得如此糟糕，尤其是像食品这样的东西。

And that it's getting to the point that it's so bad, particularly things like food.

人们可以看到房价因利率高企而下跌。

People can look at housing prices coming down because interest rates are high.

但总体而言，任何需要持续生产的商品，其价格长期来看都在显著上涨。

But by and large, anything that requires production on a recurring basis is trending up significantly over time.

价格可能会在一段时间内回落，但电费在上涨，汽油价格在下降，不过汽油价格以前也降过，之后又涨了回去。

And it might dip for a period of time, but electricity prices are going up, gas prices are going down, but gas prices have gone down before and gone up again.

所有这些趋势都由同一个底层机制驱动，那就是货币印刷。

The trend is all being driven by the same underlying mechanism, and it's the money printing.

它需要时间才能渗透到经济体系中，但这是真实存在的。

And it takes time to distribute through the economic system, but it it's real.

这很严重。

It's serious.

它的结局只有一种，那就是恶性通货膨胀。

It ends in one way, and that one way is hyperinflation.

如果人们不以高度自主的方式采取行动，通过选择一种更好的货币来保护自己，那么这将不仅仅是通胀率从36%的差别。

And if people don't respond in a way that is high agency to actually protect themselves by opting into a better form of money, it's not going to be the difference of inflation between 36%.

而是他们将无力负担生活中最基本的需求。

It's going to be them not being able to afford the very basic necessities in life.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我提起这一点，并不是为了吓唬人，而是想说，嘿。

And so I bring it up not to, like, scare people, but to say, hey.

对此你其实可以做点什么，而且你应该这么做，因为保护自己的人越多，我们所有人就会越好了。

There's something you can do about this, and you should be because the more people that are protecting themselves, the better off we're all gonna be.

似乎营养领域发生了一次重大转变。

It seems that there's been a major shift in nutrition.

也许这只是因为我关注的X平台上的人以及我所看到的内容。

And maybe it's just my the feed that I'm seeing on x as to the people that I'm following and whatnot.

每个人似乎都在慢慢意识到，吃肉对身体是有益的，它并不会像过去那些广泛传播的营销和宣传那样导致心脏病——我认为，这种宣传一直持续到新冠疫情前。

Everybody seems to be slowly starting to understand that the meat is healthy for you and that it's not gonna give you a heart attack like this marketing and propaganda that was really quite prevalent, I would argue, clear up to COVID.

而且自新冠疫情以来，似乎出现了一种相反的趋势，人们开始对此提出质疑。

And it seems like ever since COVID, there seems to be a bit of a trend in the opposite direction of people questioning.

我们刚刚就看到肯尼迪把食物金字塔彻底翻了个个儿。

I mean, we literally just had Kennedy come out and flip the food pyramid upside down.

我认为，像这样的联邦层面的举措，正让很多人开始思考：等等。

And I think things like this at a federal level are causing a lot of people to say, hold on.

难道我过去几十年都被骗了吗？

Like, what is like, was I lied to for decades on end?

我很好奇。

I'm curious.

我不知道有没有一段来自《南方公园》的片段流传出来，是的。

I don't know if there was a clip floating around from South Park Yes.

里面肯尼迪在打电话，实验室里的人说：先生，金字塔模型不起作用了。

Where it's like Kennedy's on the phone, and the guy in the lab says, he's like, sir, the pyramid is not working.

他说：把它倒过来。

He's like, turn it upside down.

什么？

Like, what?

把它倒过来。

Like, turn it upside down.

他们把金字塔倒过来，然后一切就都对上了。

They they turn it upside down, and then it, like, all fits into place.

我认为，人们正在从他们曾经陷入的迷思中觉醒，这确实是更大趋势的一部分。

And I do think that part of this broader trend that people are finding their way out of the trance that they were under Yeah.

无论是金钱、健康，还是显然这些高度互联的方面，都有人开始挑战权威，独立思考，说对啊。

Of, you know, whether it's the money, the health, and obviously, all these things are highly interconnected that there's people that are they're bucking the authorities to think for themselves and say, yeah.

我要走另一条路。

I'm gonna go this other direction.

我要试试。

I'm gonna try.

因为你们一直告诉我那是对的，但结果并不好。

Because whatever you've been telling me to be true, it's not been working out.

我认为，这种趋势在各个领域都获得了巨大动力，最终彼此交织在一起。

And I think that it's getting so much momentum in various different areas that that it all winds up kind of intersecting each other.

因为另一面是，如果你发现过去三十年里关于食物的信息全是谎言，那不可能简单地就说：哦，我明天就开始吃牛排。

Because the other side of this, like, you figure out that you've been lied to about the food for thirty years, it's not so easy just to be like, oh, I'm gonna start eating steak again.

你知道的。

You know?

如果你没有足够的储蓄来做到这一点，那不可能一夜之间就解决。

If you don't have the savings to be able to do that, like, you can't fix that overnight.

而这就是发生的事情的重要部分：随着通货膨胀得到控制，人们不得不转向质量更低的食物，这损害了他们的健康，而这种情况不是一夜之间就能扭转的，但它确实与此相关。

And that is a big part of what's happened is this as inflation has curbed, people have had to shift into lower quality food that's screwed up their health, and it's not something you turn around overnight, but it is something that's connected with it.

但只要有人能尽早看清信号，也就是屏蔽掉干扰信息，他们就会意识到这些事情是相互关联的，从而开始真正做出积极的改变。

But the sooner that somebody can start to see the signal, you know, basically turn off the noise, then they see these things as being related to each other and can start actually making positive change.

是的。

Yeah.

完全同意。

Totally agree.

你是在今年五月左右写下的这些内容吧。

You wrote this back in I think back in May.

你写道，央行行长们最厉害的一招，就是让全世界相信，个人必须不断承担风险，才能保住已经创造的价值。

You wrote that the greatest trick the central bankers ever pulled was convincing the world that the individuals must perpetually take risk just to preserve value already created.

比特币扭转了这一点。

Bitcoin reverses that.

它让人们能够再次储蓄，而不是被迫投机。

It lets people save again instead of being forced to speculate.

描绘一下去金融化的图景，尤其是在我们刚刚看到的AI背景下，去金融化经济会是什么样子？

Paint this picture of definancialization and what the definancialization economy looks like, especially in the face of everything that we've just seen with AI.

因为似乎金融化一切、强迫人们投机的行为，正再次达到比一年前更高的高潮，尤其是我们看到的英伟达、OpenAI等公司为了融资而采取的各种金融操作。

Because it just seems like this financialization of everything and and forcing people to speculate is just kind of hitting yet again another higher fever pitch than where it was a year ago with some of the antics that we're seeing with NVIDIA and OpenAI and the likes of the shenanigans that they're pulling from a financialization standpoint to raise capital.

杰克，是的。

Jack Yeah.

一个我能用来从食物讨论过渡到牛排指数的例子是，我正在帮助我们当地的一位牧场主，他也经营一家杂货店，来理解比特币。

One example that I would lean on to segue from this food discussion in the rib eye index is I was helping our local rancher who also owns a grocer understand Bitcoin.

从金融化的角度，特别是你刚才提到的那句话——如果你生产牛肉，并且开设一家杂货店，让消费者直接从你这里购买，而不是只通过农贸市场或大型连锁超市，想象一下，你每卖出一单位的毛利，都无法获得与你当下所创造价值相称的回报。

And going from this perspective of financialization and specifically the quote you just mentioned of thinking about, hey, if you're producing beef and then you're building a grocer to be the way that consumers actually purchase things from you rather than just the farmer's market or rather than selling through a larger grocery chain, imagine every gross margin unit that you sell not being able to purchase commensurate value that you delivered in the present.

换句话说，你每卖出一单位产品，你当下所创造的价值，在未来能买到的东西会越来越少。

So think about it literally as every unit you sell, whatever value you delivered in the present will purchase you less in the future.

这是因为货币在不断印制。

And that's because they print money.

如果面对这样的现实，你如何还能维持同样的质量标准？

How can you possibly continue to maintain the same standard of quality if that's what you're up against?

再叠加一个事实，你知道的。

And then layer onto that the fact that you know that.

你知道你的美元、你的毛利最终转化为净利润时，其价值正在缩水。

You know that your dollar, your gross profit that then turning into your bottom line is degrading in value.

而你要应对这一点的方式之一，就是作为牧场主或杂货商，你不得不投资你的资金。

And that part of the way that you have to counter that is on the side of being a rancher, on the side of being a grocer, you're having to invest your money.

因此，你不得不不断调整你的商业模式，或者至少是定价模式，但往往滞后，因为你的投入成本变化速度比你对终端客户调整价格的速度更快。

So you're constantly having to change your business model or at least your pricing model, oftentimes in arrears because your input costs are changing faster than you're actually changing them to your end customers.

但你知道，你正处在这条永不停歇的跑步机上。

But then you know that you're on this hamster wheel.

因此，在你努力经营业务的同时，你也知道自己的储蓄正在不断贬值。

And so at the same time that you're trying to run your business, you have a certain amount of savings that you also know is being degraded.

当你的全职工作结束时，无论是牧场主、杂货商、医生、律师还是教师，在他们主要提供价值和工作的生涯结束后，我脑海中浮现的画面是：晚上8点到10点，这些人坐在电脑前，试图选股。

Your full time job is over, oftentimes just imagining whether it's a rancher, a grocer, doctor, lawyer, teacher, after their primary way of delivering value and working is over, I just have this visual of between 8PM and 10PM, sitting in front of a computer, those same people trying to pick stocks.

这就像是高打低打的现象。

And so it's like a hit them high, hit them low phenomenon.

如果你能拨开迷雾，直接将你的商品和服务转换为一种无法被印制、能保有购买力的货币形式，就会发生两件事。

And that if you could just take the fly out of the ointment and say, hey, if you could just convert your goods and services directly into a form of money that can't be printed and sources purchasing power, two things happen.

你当下所创造的所有价值都能在未来保持其价值，因此你能够持续提供相同质量与标准，而无需额外付出更多劳动。

All the value that you deliver in the present holds value into the future so that you're actually in a position to continue to deliver the same quality and standard without having to do incremental work.

你也不必在晚上8点到10点之间被迫去当一名股票投资者。

And you don't have to bother between the hours of 8PM and 10PM to become a stock picker.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你只需专注于你的技艺。

You can just focus on your craft.

是的。

Yes.

所以我总是从微观层面出发，关注个体所面临的困境——货币印刷和储蓄贬值对每个人的影响。

And so I always focus on the micro of, like, an individual and the predicament that the money printer and the degradation of savings as each individual.

然后我再将其扩展到更大的宏观趋势，比如：好吧。

And then I extend it out to the bigger macro trends of, okay.

现在每个人都在关注人工智能，觉得自己必须选出一个赢家。

Now everybody is looking at AI and feeling like they need to pick a winner.

于是你就看到一种巨大的从众心理，试图从根本上对冲风险。

And so you just have this huge herd mentality of trying to basically offset.

这并不是说，当我谈到把苍蝇从药膏中挑出来时，它会阻止大量原本不会投资、只是为了跑赢通胀而投资的人参与进来。

And it's not to say it's like, when I'm talking about how if you take the fly out of the ointment and it will remove a large swath of people investing that otherwise wouldn't be investing other than to outpace or try to outpace inflation.

但创新依然会存在。

It's that there's still going to be innovation.

我们永远都会处于今天的境地，人类总会面临需要解决的问题，而这并不会消除投资。

We're always going to be where we're at today, and humans are always going to have problems that need to be solved and that it won't eliminate investment.

如果有创新能够解决足够多人的问题，从而为商业带来合理的利润空间，那么自然就会出现投资机会。

And if there's innovation to be had that necessarily mean solving problems for enough people to justify a margin in a business, that there's still gonna be opportunities to invest that occur naturally.

这并不会消除这些机会，但它能让人不再总是感到必须不断追逐下一个目标，以逃离货币印钞机的侵蚀。

It's not gonna eliminate that, but it stops people from having to constantly feel like they're chasing the next thing as a way to to outrun the money printer.

另一个问题是，很多人甚至没有意识到他们正在做的是什么

And the other problem is that a lot of people don't even realize that that's what they're

在做。

doing.

是的。

Yeah.

所以人们只是做了一些财务上的操作，我还没深入了解细节，这可能就是你所暗示的，某些收入会计处理方式如何帮助他们筹集资本。

So people just do some financial engineering in terms of I haven't gotten to the details of it, this might have been what you were alluding to, how some of the revenue accounting is then leading to their ability to raise capital.

这种财务操作可能处于另一个层面。

That sort of financial engineering might sit at a different level.

但我还认为，这比真正推动金融化的根本原因要复杂得多，那个根本原因就是印钞机，而将导致去金融化、简化但不消除广泛投资的趋势，只是一种无法被印出来的货币形式。

But I also think that that's a much higher order than the fundamental that that really drove financialization, which is the money printer and that the trend that will cause the de financialization, the simplification without removing investment broadly is just a form of money that can't be printed.

对。

Yeah.

我喜欢你的这个观点，因为我觉得如果你去对美国中产阶级做个审计，每个人都会觉得自己已经处于120%的运转状态，他们展望未来时会说：天啊。

I love this point of yours because it's just I think if you went and just did an audit of middle class America, everybody just feels like they're already running at a 120%, and they're looking to their future and they're saying, oh my god.

我马上就要达到140%了。

I'm about to run at a 140%.

他们已经精疲力尽了。

And they're just tapped out.

他们很疲惫。

They're tired.

他们不得不做那些感觉永远没有停歇或休息的事情，而对未来的期望是必须跑得更快、更拼命。

They're having to do things that just feel like there's never any pause or rest and that the expectation for the future is they gotta go faster and harder.

我同意，我支持你的观点。

And I'm with I'm with you.

总体来说，只是为了维持现状。

By and large to stay in the same place.

就是Exactly。

Just to exactly.

只是为了维持现状，甚至无法前进，还可能倒退几步。

Just to stay in the same place and not even get ahead and maybe even fall back a couple clicks.

所以，是的，我支持你。

So, yeah, I'm with you.

我的意思是，你和我都看到了解决方案，而且我们认为我们看得非常清楚。

And I mean, you and I see the solution, and we think that we see it very clearly.

希望我们是对的。

Hopefully, we're right.

我相当确定我们抓住了关键。

I'm pretty sure that we're onto something.

这正好说明了这场谈话的核心内容之一。

That's a that's a good place to just say that that's a big part of what this talk was about.

它并不仅仅关于人工智能和比特币之间的关系。

Like, it wasn't specifically about this relationship between AI and Bitcoin.

但在这个世界里，人们很容易把注意力转向下一个话题，说：嘿，这里确实有个大问题。

But it is so easy in this world for people's attention to go to the next thing, saying like, hey, there's a real problem here.

这个问题不会自己解决。

This thing is not going to fix itself.

比特币就是解决方案。

Bitcoin is the solution.

或者如果你还没看到这一点，你需要用这个视角去思考它，嗯。

Or if you don't see that yet, you need to be thinking about it through that frame Mhmm.

并花时间去评估它。

And spend the time to evaluate it.

是的。

Yes.

因为在24小时新闻循环中，人们对比特币价格高昂这一事实存在负面心理。

Because in a twenty four hour news cycle, and and there is a negative psychology to Bitcoin being quote as expensive as it is.

但从宏观来看，它仍处于早期阶段，并且其影响深远。

But in the grand scheme, is in its infancy still, and there's large consequence to it.

所以，尽管你和我已经得出了这个结论，但很多人却不愿深入探究，而是找借口回避。

So even though you and I have come to that conclusion, it's like so many people just turn it off without going deep, and then they have some excuse not to.

他们说：‘我不相信比特币，但区块链不错’，或者‘AI才是未来，也许我们根本不需要货币。’

Was like, oh, I don't believe in Bitcoin, but blockchain now it's like, well, AI is the future, and maybe we aren't going to need money.

这不过是逃避深入探索比特币的借口，但如果你不这么做，后果将非常严重。

It's like, no, that's just an excuse not to go down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, but there's great consequence to you if you don't.

所以把你的精力集中在这一点上。

And so focus your time and energy there.

实际上，这比你想象的要简单得多。

It's actually a lot easier than you might think it is.

更加基础，更加根本。

A lot more basic, a lot more fundamental.

即便其他方面都不成立，仅凭其潜在的不对称性，也绝对值得你花时间去了解。

If nothing else, it certainly merits your time just given the inherent asymmetry if it were to be true.

所以我想直接对听众说一下。

So I'm just going to put this out there for the listener.

正如你所听到的，帕克在解释比特币的这些关键变量时，有着非凡的能力。

As you can tell, Parker has an amazing way of explaining a lot of these really important variables around Bitcoin.

他写了一本书。

He has a book.

书名叫《渐进之后，骤然爆发》。

It's called Gradually Then Suddenly.

这是一本了不起的书。

It's an incredible book.

我相信人们可以在亚马逊上买到它。

I'm sure people can go on Amazon to pick it up.

还有，帕克，如果你希望人们更多地了解你，还有什么其他推荐的吗？

And, Parker, did you have anything else that you wanted to point people towards if they wanna learn more about you?

我只想澄清一下。

I would only clarify.

实际上，它在Safe Dean的网站上。

It's actually on Safe Dean's website.

我只是去那里看了看。

I just I just went there.

我在这事上完全坚持比特币立场。

I went pure Bitcoin on this.

好的。

Okay.

这本书可以在thesafehouse.com购买，saif拼写为s-a-i-f，网址是thesafehouse.com。

The book can be bought at thesafehouse.com, which is saif, spelled saif, thesafehouse.com.

电子书也在这里提供。

The ebook is there as well.

我刚听完有声书，所以有声版很快就会上线。

I just finished the audiobook, so that'll be coming out shortly.

哦，真不错。

Oh, nice.

我自己读过了。

Read it myself.

然后，如果你能提供在Old Parkland的演讲链接就好了。

And And then I'd say if you could link the presentation that was at Old Parkland.

是的。

Yeah.

比特币是最伟大的不对称性，详情请见节目笔记，以便人们如果需要的话可以获取这些内容。

Bitcoin is the greatest asymmetry show notes so that people could access it if they want to with these.

对于那些已经理解比特币、视其为货币并明白其价值所在的人，我强烈建议你们开始接受比特币作为支付方式。

And then I'd say for those people that already grok Bitcoin and see it as money, understand why it's worth value, I highly encourage those people to start to accept it as payments.

如果你们正在考虑这一点，可以联系Zaprite（z a p r I t e点com），我会亲自帮助你们，协助你们完成设置，并至少引导你们了解所需的一切。

If they're thinking about that, to reach out to us at Zaprite, z a p r I t e dot com, and I'll help you personally, help you get set up and at least talk you through what it would require.

所以，如果还没完全理解，那就拿我的书看看，去听一下那个演讲。

So, yeah, if it's not yet clicking, grab my book, go listen to the presentation.

如果已经理解了，那就把你的业务转变为一家比特币金库公司，通过接受这种支付方式来实现。

And if it already is, then turn your business into a Bitcoin treasury company by accepting this payment.

是的。

Yeah.

我得说，我用过几次ZapRate，真的非常棒，Parker。

I would tell you, having used ZapRate a few times, it's pretty awesome, Parker.

对于所有听众来说，如果你是商家或企业主，想开始接受比特币，但又不想亲自处理繁琐的设置工作，他的公司ZapRite正是解决这个问题的。

And for anybody listening, if you're a merchant or you own a business and you want to start accepting Bitcoin, but you don't want to have to do any of the hard work to set it all up, that's what his company ZapRite does.

我们也会在节目笔记中提供相关链接。

We'll have a link to that in the show notes as well.

所以我们会把他说的那些内容的链接都放在节目笔记里。

So we'll have a link to all that stuff that he mentioned in the show notes.

大家记得去看看节目笔记哦。

So check out the show notes, guys.

上一期结尾，那是我们的头脑风暴讨论。

Last episode at the end, this was our mastermind discussion.

美国HODL出乎我们所有人的意料，即兴用AI创作了一首关于我们这四个人的音乐。

American HODL surprised all of us and did an on the fly AI music song about the four of us in that mastermind group.

自从上周我们录完这期节目后，我试了试这个AI音乐，效果其实特别搞笑，而且只要你给个不错的提示，它真的挺不错的。

Since last week when we did this, I've played around with this AI music, and it's actually hilarious and, like, actually pretty good if you give it a decent prompt.

所以为了好玩，我打算在每期节目的结尾，把我们刚才讨论内容的AI转录文本输入进去，然后把它变成你选择的任何音乐风格的歌曲。

So what I'm gonna do just for fun, at the end of each of the shows, I'm going to feed it, you know, the AI transcript of what we just talked about, And we're gonna turn it into a song of your choice of genre.

比如，如果你喜欢摇滚，或者喜欢嘻哈，随便你选，Parker。

So, like, if you like rock, if you like hip hop, whatever it is, you decide, Parker.

我们一结束通话，这首歌就会立刻播放给刚刚听完播客的每个人。

And as soon as we hang up this call, that song is gonna play for everybody that just listened to the podcast.

那么说到这里，帕克，你最喜欢的艺术家或音乐类型是什么？

So with that said, Parker, what is your favorite artist, genre?

是什么？

What is it?

德克萨斯乡村音乐。

Texas country.

德克萨斯乡村音乐。

Texas country.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我可能会选罗伯特·厄尔·基恩，或者杰里·杰夫·沃克，还有谢恩·史密斯与圣徒乐队。

So I'd either go, like, Robert Earl Keene or Jerry Jeff Walker, Shane Smith and the saints.

好的。

Okay.

瞧，就是这样。

Well, there you go.

这集的回顾内容就将是这样。

That's what the recap of this episode is gonna be.

希望你们喜欢这首歌。

I hope you guys enjoy the song.

帕克，非常感谢你加入我们并抽出时间。

And, Parker, thank you so much for joining us and making time.

是的。

Yeah.

普雷斯顿，能来这里真的很开心。

Preston, it's been good to be here.

谢谢你们邀请我。

Thank you for having me on.

和我在一起。

Here with me.

多拉尔斯，糖分，戴顿街。

Dollars, sugars in Dayton Street.

我的工资单填满了生锈的金属托盘里的纸灰。

My paycheck filled my paper ashes in a rusted metal tray.

沉重的心，流淌不息。

Sliven hearts, standing runny.

水往低处流，太阳。

Water moves downhill, sun.

来吧，和我一起在这里等着。

Come wait out here with me.

水往低处流，

Water moves downhill,

感谢收听TIP。

Thanks for listening to TIP.

在您喜爱的播客应用上关注比特币基本面，并访问investorspodcast.com获取节目笔记和教育资源。

Follow Bitcoin fundamentals on your favorite podcast app, and visit the investorspodcast.com for show notes and educational resources.

本播客仅用于信息和娱乐目的，不提供财务、投资、税务或法律建议。

This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and does not provide financial, investment, tax, or legal advice.

该内容为非个性化信息，未考虑您的目标、财务状况或需求。

The content is impersonal and does not consider your objectives, financial situation, or needs.

投资涉及风险，包括可能损失本金，过往表现并不保证未来结果。

Investing involves risk, including possible loss of principal, and past performance is not a guarantee of future results.

听众在做出任何财务决策前，应自行进行研究并咨询合格的专业人士。

Listeners should do their own research and consult a qualified professional before making any financial decisions.

本节目中的任何内容均不构成购买或出售任何证券或其他金融产品的建议或要约。

Nothing on this show is a recommendation or solicitation to buy or sell any security or other financial product.

主持人、嘉宾以及投资者播客网络可能持有节目中讨论的证券，并可能在任何时候未经通知而改变持仓。

Hosts, guests, and the Investors Podcast Network may hold positions in securities discussed and may change those positions at any time without notice.

提及任何第三方产品、服务或广告商均不构成 endorsement，投资者播客网络不对它们所作的任何声明负责。

References to any third party products, services, or advertisers do not constitute endorsements, and The Investor's Podcast Network is not responsible for any claims made by them.

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