RWH024：财富、智慧与幸福——与汤姆·盖纳的对话

我不是逐字引用，但这就是它的精髓。

I'm I'm not quoting it exactly, but that's the essence of it.

所以，在做这件事时，我感觉这就是我来到世上的目的，当我做这件事时，我内心充满了喜悦。

So in in doing this, I I I feel this is what I was made to do, and I feel there's joy within me when I am doing it.

所以对我来说，这听起来很有趣。

So that sounds like fun to me.

是的。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

这很棒。

It's great.

实际上，你的生活中非常强调乐趣和幽默，我经常思考这一点，因为我觉得小时候我是个更爱开玩笑、更幽默、更轻松的人。

And there's a lot of there's a lot of emphasis in your life actually on fun and humor, and I I think about this a lot because I I feel like when I was a kid, I was a much more facetious, jokey, lighthearted person.

我觉得自己变得越来越严肃，渐渐忘记了要放松一下。

I feel like I've become increasingly earnest, and I've I've kind of forgotten to lighten up.

我我记得史蒂芬·金给另一位刚开始成功的著名作家提过一条很好的建议，他说：别忘了享受其中。

I I there was a great piece of advice from Stephen King to another another famous novelist who was starting to be successful and he said, don't forget to enjoy it.

我觉得我有时候会忘记这一点。

And I feel like I sometimes forget that.

当我看着你时，我提醒自己，你是享受做这件事的。

And when I when I look at you, I'm kinda reminded that you have fun doing this.

实际上，马克尔公司的价值观体系中就包含了这种幽默感。

And it's actually it's built into the value system of Markel, this idea of having a a sense of humor.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

我认为这里有几点关键需要记住。

And I think there are several key points to keep in mind there.

第一，我认为幽默感是智慧的体现，因为它表明你能从不同角度看待事物，发现其中的荒谬之处。

One, I think a sense of humor is a sign of intelligence because it it shows that you're able to look at something and think about it from a different point of view or see the absurdity and things.

天啊，如果你没有这种能力，生活会把你压垮，因为人生中你会遇到太多荒谬的事情；对我而言，幽默感是一种重新看待事物、笑对一切的方式。

Boy, if you if you don't have that, life will beat you down because there are just so many things that you encounter in in life that are just absurd that, for me anyway, having a sense of humor is is a way of reframing things and and and laughing.

这是一种谦逊的表现，不要把自己看得太重。

It is an aspect of humility and not taking yourself too seriously.

因为如果你太把自己当回事，就很容易陷入自己总是对的错觉。

Because if you take yourself too seriously, that can easily slip over into thinking you're right.

如果你觉得自己总是对的，那你就是在为跌倒做准备。

And if you think you're right, you know, then then then you're setting yourself up for a fall.

我想不起来这到底是马克·吐温还是威尔·罗杰斯说的了。

I can't remember whether it's Mark Twain or Will Rogers or something.

真正让你陷入麻烦的，不是你不知道的事情。

It's it's not the things that you don't know.

而是那些你自以为知道但实际上并不对的事情。

It's the things that you know that aren't so get you in trouble.

所以，幽默感能对这类情况起到刹车作用，这很重要。

So a sense of humor acts as a break on that sort of thing, and that's important.

最后一点，幽默与乐趣。

And then the last thing, humor slash fun.

而且，这些词虽然不是同一个词，但它们彼此之间有所关联，存在一些重叠。

And, again, these are words that they're not the same words, but they they sort of touch one another and have some overlap.

因此，今年我在年度报告中写了关于卡尔·里普肯的内容，并且最近有幸观看了他的一场演讲。

So, I wrote about Cal Ripken in the in the annual report this year, and I had the great pleasure of seeing him give a give a talk quite recently.

在谈到他这一纪录是如何形成的以及人们提出的问题时，他提到，当他还是新人，或刚进入球队的第一、第二或第三年时，他会与那些老球员交流，而这些老球员特意指出自己已接近职业生涯尾声或刚刚退役。

In the context of his talk and the questions that people ask as to how that streak came to be, one of the things he talked about was that as he was a rookie or in his first or second or third year and he would talk to some of the older players on the club who had been there, they they made a special point of sort of acknowledging that they were at the end of their career or had just finished.

这让他们忘记了如何享受打球时本应拥有的那份快乐。

And it was so much fun, and they had forgotten how to have some of the joy that they should have had while playing the game.

因此，正是这一点让卡尔·里普肯保持动力，坚定地每天坚持出场、持续打球，因为他知道这一切不会永远持续下去。

So that was one of the things that kept Kal Ripken motivated and dedicated to showing up every single day and continuing to play is that he knew it was not gonna last forever.

因此，这帮助他以一种更珍惜的心态看待在球场上的每一天。

So as a consequence, that helped him frame it in such a way that he appreciated each day at the ballpark.

这就是快乐。

That's joy.

读到你最新年度报告中关于卡尔·里普肯的内容，非常有趣。

It was very interesting read reading about Kyle Ripken in your latest annual report.

你看看。

And you you look.

我对美国体育一无所知，但你说他因为连续打了2632场比赛而被称为‘铁人’。

I know nothing about American sports, but but you you said he was known as the iron man for playing, I think, 2632 consecutive games.

你有一段很美好的话，说他日复一日、年复一年的不懈出现，让队友们能够依赖他。

And there was a lovely quote from you where you said his unrelenting presence day after day, year after year, created the ability of his teammates to depend on him.

他的队友知道他们可以依靠他。

His team knew that they could count on him.

他带给团队的可靠性是无法衡量的。

The sense of dependability he provided to his team can't be measured.

我想起很多年前，你曾对我说过，你父亲跟你讲过，最大的能力就是可靠性。

And I was thinking about you you many years ago I think had said to me that your father talked to you about how the greatest ability is dependability.

我记得当你为《更富有、更睿智、更快乐》采访我时，我在你办公室里看到你。

And and I remember you in in your office when I hung out with you when I I was interviewing you for a couple of days for richer wiser happier.

你电脑上贴着一张便利贴，提醒你迈克尔·乔丹早年作为篮球运动员的失败，以及他未能入选高中篮球队后所展现出的惊人毅力。

You had a a Post it on your computer that reminded you of Michael Jordan's failure earlier in life as a basketball player and his incredible perseverance after he'd not made it into his his high school basketball team, I think.

你能谈谈这种‘坚持出现’和‘坚持不懈’的核心理念吗？

Can you talk about this very central idea of just showing up, of persistence?

因为这似乎对你成功至关重要。

Because it seems it seems actually so essential to your success.

这可以说是你职业生涯和人生观中的一个核心教训。

It's kind of a central a central lesson of your career and your your approach to life.

我认为这是正确的。

I think that's correct.

而且，你可以这样理解或看待它：对我而言，它是一种倍增器。

And and really one of the ways you could frame that or think about it is, for me, it is a force multiplier.

因为如果考验的是你能跳多高，或者处理事情有多快，我是赢不了这些比赛的。

Because if the contest and the test is gonna be how high you can jump or how quickly you can process something, I'm not gonna win those contests.

总有人在这些几乎任何任务上都比你更优秀、更快、更敏捷。

There's there's somebody better, faster, quicker at those sorts of almost any task you can imagine.

但这种坚持、忍耐和持续投入的能力，会放大你所涉及的任何方面的力量。

But that ability to persist and endure and stay with it, it it magnifies the power of of whatever aspect you're talking about.

我认为另一件相关的事情是，这对任何人都是一种有价值的工具，就像我写卡尔·里普肯那样，我认为你不需要受过专业训练的博士级心理医生才能理解。

The other thing that I think is relevant, and I think this is a a valuable tool for anybody, the idea of writing what I wrote about Cal Ripken, I don't think I don't think you need to be a trained doctorate level psychiatrist to understand.

我写这些内容，很可能是对自己的一种告诫或处方。

I'm probably writing that as an admonition slash prescription for myself.

所以我写的那些信，当然有读者，但对我所写内容最重要的读者，其实是我自己。

So so those letters that I write, sure, there's an audience, but the most important audience for what I write is is me.

我写的很多东西其实都是在和自己对话，这有助于我理清思路，思考我想成为什么样的人，以及谁才是你的榜样。

I'm I'm talking to myself in in so much of what I write, and it helps me clarify my thinking and think about what I wanna be and who your heroes are.

巴菲特和芒格谈论过选择榜样的问题。

Buffett and Munger talk about choosing heroes.

所以，所有这些因素都会融入到整体的‘汤’里，共同发挥作用。

So, like, we all all of those things just go into the soup of how it all puts together.

这个写下文字以澄清想法的想法非常有趣，因为这样你的想法就固定下来了，你可以不断回头参考，把观念深深印在脑海里。

It's very interesting, this idea of writing things down so that you you clarify your ideas, and they're there for you to keep coming back to and to pound the ideas into your head.

在我看来，你的例子中有几个特别突出的。

And I I think of, in in your case, a couple of examples.

对吧？

Right?

首先是马克尔信条，你在每一份年报中都提到的公司文化，谈论公司的价值观。

First, the Markel creed of that you have about the the culture that's in every single annual report, talking about the values of the company.

然后是你们的四步投资流程，你们用于每一项投资的筛选标准。

And then likewise, the four part investment process that you have, the filters that you have for every investment.

你们在年报中经常使用‘信条’或‘仪式’这样的词。

There's something about kind of and you use the word creed in the annual report often or liturgy.

这种写下原则的方式，几乎有种宗教般的意味，对吧？

There there is something almost religious, right, about this way you write down your principles.

这也很像雷·达利奥的做法。

It's it's it's very Ray Dalio esque as well.

对吧？

Right?

你写下自己的原则，然后不断回头审视它们。

You write down your principles, and then you keep coming back to them.

你能谈谈这一点吗？

Can you talk a bit about that?

因为我认为这对其他人来说非常容易复制，而且这实际上是生活中一个非常重要的工具。

Because I think it's something that's it's very easily replicable for the rest of us, and it's actually a really important tool in life.

你说得完全对。

Well, you're absolutely right.

你可以从许多不同的角度来理解这一点。

And you can approach this from many different places.

比如，今天早上上班途中，我听到有人谈论写日记这个日常习惯以及写日记的重要性。

So for instance, riding in to work this morning, was listening to somebody who was talking about the habit, the daily habit of journaling and the importance of journaling.

虽然那里没有宗教背景，但这个人每天早上起床后都会坚持写日记，很有自律性。

Well, there was no religious context to that, but this is a person who has the discipline every morning when he gets up to to do some journaling.

而且，这同样是同一种主题和做事方式的重复。

And and, again, it's an iteration of the same theme and the same way of doing things.

正如你提到的，在犹太传统中，有‘经上记着’这样的说法。

To your point about in in the in the Jewish tradition, the notion of saying something, it is written.

它被写下了。

It is written.

当你听到这句话，接着又提到写下的内容时，这意味着要停顿一下。

When you hear that phrase said and then a reference is made to what it is that has been written, that means take a pause.

好好想想这个。

Think about this.

这很严肃。

This is serious.

除了写下文字有助于理清你的思路外，好消息是，一旦写下来，它就变得可扩展且可保存。

In addition to the clarification of your own thoughts when you write something down, well, the good news is when it is written, it becomes scalable and savable.

所以你不必在十分钟、十个月、甚至十年后重复你之前说过的话。

So you don't have to repeat what you said ten minutes, ten months, ten years later.

它被写下了。

It was written.

你所写的内容会形成一个不断积累的记录，而且不止一个人可以同时阅读。

There's a record that is accumulating of what you wrote, and more than one person could read it at a time.

所以，可扩展性正是由此体现的。

So that's where the the scalability comes through.

因此，我非常欣赏在表达对话、沟通，或通过文字与他人分享任何内容时所涉及的这种自律。

So I I just appreciate the discipline that is involved in framing your conversation, framing the communication, framing anything you wanna you wanna share with somebody through the written word.

在我看来，这似乎是一个很好的过程。

That seems like a good process to me.

自1986年之前，这种信条就一直是马克尔的核心，我认为最近退休的执行董事长艾伦·基希纳一直是马克尔风格的主要撰写者，这种风格深深植根于你所提到的这些永恒价值。

You've had this creed at the heart of Markel, right, since before 1986, which I think Alan Kirchner, who recently retired as executive chairman, had had been the lead writer of the Markel style, which is very much built on what what you refer to as these timeless values.

对吗？

Right?

比如诚实、公平、勤奋、对卓越的热忱追求、信任、服务心态，以及双赢的文化。

Things like honesty and fairness and hard work and the zealous pursuit of excellence and trust and a mindset of service and and a win win win culture.

当企业谈论自己的美德时，人们往往持怀疑态度，对吧？

And I think people tend to be kind of skeptical of this, right, when when corporations talk about, you know, their virtues and the like.

但在我看来，这些对马克尔而言确实至关重要。

But but it seems to me truly central to to Markel.

这看起来不像是宣传。

It doesn't seem like, propaganda.

你能谈谈这作为一种竞争优势吗？即确立文化、将其固化，并且保持了三十七年？

Can you talk about this as a as a kind of competitive advantage, this idea of of setting the culture, setting it in stone, and having it there for, what is it now, thirty seven years?

没错。

Correct.

艾伦确实是马克尔风格的主要作者，这在我来之前很久就完成了。

And Alan was indeed the primary author of the Markel style, which was done long before I got here.

这是流程的一部分。

It was part of the process.

当艾伦、托尼和史蒂夫·马克尔准备上市时，正是暂停下来反思公司价值观的时机。

When Alan and Tony and Steve Markel, were about to go public, it was the time to take a pause and to do some reflection over what the values of this company were.

再次强调，将这些价值观固定下来，以便当他们不再在世、意识到自己终有一死时，这些价值观仍能延续，即使他们不再每天亲自监督这一过程。

And, again, the context of setting these things down in stone, so to speak, so that when they were no longer here and they knew they were mortal, those values would continue to be carried on even when they when they weren't here day to day to supervise that process.

而且，艾伦、托尼和史蒂夫已经十多年没有每天亲自参与公司运营了。

And, you Alan and Tony and Steve have not been here on a day to day basis for for over a decade, and all of them.

艾伦几年前从董事会退休了。

Allen retired from the board a couple of years ago.

史蒂夫和托尼显然仍然参与董事会层面的工作，但他们已经退居二线，不再参与日常事务。

Steve and Tony are obviously still involved at the at the board level, but they've stepped back from day to day.

但这种风格所传达的核心精神仍然贯穿于公司之中。

But yet the essence of what was communicated in the style still pervades the company.

我认为这确实是一种竞争优势。

I do think that that is a competitive advantage.

它体现的方式之一就是我在今年年报中提到的另一位运动员——比尔·拉塞尔。

And the way in which it shows up is this and and the other athlete that I talked about in the annual report this year was Bill Russell.

比尔·拉塞尔主要是在比赛的防守端发挥重要作用。

And Bill Russell primarily was a factor on the defensive side of the game.

与进攻端的贡献相比，防守的表现更难用统计数据来量化和捕捉。

And defense is much harder to quantify and capture in statistical metrics than what offensive contributions are.

但当他上场时，他的球队总是能赢。

But his team won when when he was on the on the floor.

所以，这些无法量化的因素，我认为就像凯尔特人队在比尔·拉塞尔在场上时一样赢球。

So these unquantifiable type of factors, I think, just like the Celtics won when Bill Walton I mean, when Bill Russell was on the on the on the floor.

顺便说一句，刚才我说错名字了。

And by the way, Freudian slipped there.

比尔·沃尔顿后来也为凯尔特人队效力，当他在队里时，球队也赢了，但他是一位与比尔·拉塞尔风格完全不同的球员。

Bill Walton ended up playing for the Celtics too, and they won when he was around too, but a very different style of player than Bill Russell.

但我们能够接触到交易机会，接触到人，并获得那些与我们秉持相同基本价值观的人所提供的机会——他们喜欢与自己了解并信任的人做生意，而不愿与不了解、不信任的人合作。

But we get to see deals and get exposure to people and get opportunities that come about because people who share the same basic values as what we do, they they like doing business with people they know and they trust, and they prefer not to do business with somebody that they don't know and they don't trust.

所以，坦率地说，我认为我们从构建马克尔业务的角度看到了这些机会。

So, frankly, I think we see things from the opportunity to build Markel from, you know, what businesses we do.

此外，我认为我们的客户有一种感觉，他们正在与一个会尽最大努力服务他们的人打交道，让他们愿意再次与我们合作。

Plus, I think our customers have a sensation that they're dealing with somebody who's gonna do their best to try to serve them in such a way that they'll want to do business with us again.

我有一位非常好的朋友，名叫查德·罗，他在德克萨斯州达拉斯是一名基金经理，多年来我也从他身上学到了很多。

One of my great friends is guy named Chad Rowe, who is a money manager down in Dallas, Texas and also someone I've learned a lot from over the years.

他有一句名言，而且这要追溯到大约二十年前。

And one of his phrases and, again, this goes back twenty years or so.

他说，他想投资那些为顾客做事而非对顾客行事的公司。

He said he wanted to invest in companies that did things for their customers rather than to their customers.

所以你会从各种不同的来源获得这些智慧的片段，但它们都指向同一个大方向。

So you get these snippets of wisdom from all kinds of different sources, but they all they all line up in the same general direction.

我认为它们支持了如何做生意的基本原则。

And they I I think they support the foundation of of how it is you should do business.

顺便说一句，我认为遵循这些规则会让生活变得更好。

And by the way, I I think life works out better when you follow those rules.

当然，从长远来看是这样。

Certainly in the long run.

我第一次采访你时，你说过一句话，我想大概是2014年或2015年，当时我深受触动，现在我念给你听：有些人或许能通过夸夸其谈、欺凌、恐吓和狡诈在一段时间内建立辉煌的职业生涯并取得巨大成功，但这一切终将崩塌，总是如此。

There was something you said to me when I first interviewed you, I think probably back in 2014 or '15, that I was very struck by that I'll I'll read back to you, where you said sometimes people can build great careers and enjoy great great successes for a period of time through bluster and bullying and intimidation and slipperiness, but that always comes unraveled, always.

有时需要一段时间，但终究会崩塌。

Sometimes it takes a while, but it does.

那些持续多年、年复一年保持成功的成功人士，我认为他们都是具有深厚诚信的人。

The people you find that are successful and just keep being successful year after year after year, I think you find those are people of deep integrity.

我觉得这里有一个非常有趣的见解。

I thought there's a really interesting insight.

我为此纠结了很久。

And I I've struggled with it for a while.

我想部分原因是我曾在一家公司里输掉了一场政治斗争。

I I think partly because I had kind of lost a political battle at a company where I had worked.

于是我心想，实际上，那些蛇类赢了。

And I was like, well, actually, think kind of in some ways the snakes won.

也许这是自我欺骗，而我自己也是一条蛇。

Maybe that was self deluding, and I was a snake myself.

然后我会去观察那种政治局势。

And then I would look at kind of the political situation.

我会看到，商业和大资本如何腐蚀政治，诸如此类。

I would see, you know, the corruption of politics by business and big money and the like.

而我内心有一部分，你知道吗？

And and there's there's a part of me you know?

此外，查理·芒格曾提到，桑纳·雷德斯通一直是他眼中绝对不想成为的那种人。

And then also, I mean, look, Charlie Munger has talked about how Sumner Redstone was always his example of what I don't wanna be in life.

他说，你看。

And he was like, look.

这人赚的钱比我多得多，但连他的孩子和妻子都讨厌他。

This guy made much more money than me, but even his kids and his wives hated him.

我从未见过有人读过他的书，所以我并不是想恶意中伤他。

And I I never met someone who read so I'm not trying to bad mouth bad mouth him.

但你明白我的意思吧？

But you know what I mean?

这个问题是：究竟过这种生活、做这种生意，或者以那些极其成功却手段尖锐、留下无数诉讼痕迹的人为反面教材，哪种方式更好？

This question of whether whether it's actually better to live your life this way or to do business this way or or to look at the counterexample of these people who are tremendously successful while having very sharp elbows and leaving a trail of lawsuits in their wake.

你能谈谈这个吗？

Can you talk about that?

因为我觉得，有些人只是想当然地认为资本主义本质上就是残酷、肮脏、自私自利的，而这就是它的本来面目。

Because I I feel like I feel like some people just assume that capitalism is kind of vicious and nasty and self seeking and that that's the way it goes.

而且我认为你正在引导我们走向一个可能在长期内更有效的不同体系。

And and I think you're pointing us towards actually a different system that may actually work better in the long run.

没错。

Right.

我认为资本主义比人们通常认为的要好得多。

And and I do think that capitalism is a much better system than what it's given credit for.

我认为商人常常糟糕地传达了资本主义体系的积极面。

And I think businessmen oftentimes do a horrible job of communicating the positives of a capitalist system.

因此，亚当·斯密，通常被认为是资本主义体系的奠基人和思想创造者，我相信他的头衔是爱丁堡大学或格拉斯哥大学——无论他当时在哪儿——的道德哲学教授。

So Adam Smith, who's given credit for being sort of the father and the intellectual creator of the system of capitalism, I believe his title was professor of moral philosophy at University of Edinburgh or Glasgow or wherever he was at the time.

因此，他是从道德角度来理解资本主义的，认为这是一种更优越的体系，并以这种方式撰写了相关著作。

So he approached the idea of capitalism from a moral lens and thought it was a superior system and wrote books about it in in that way.

其次，我认为成功不应当仅用单一变量来定义。

Secondly, success, I think, is something that you shouldn't define along only one variable.

这是一个复杂的方程式。

It's a complicated equation.

成功的概念包含很多方面。

There are a lot of things that go into the idea of success.

比如，如果你考虑体育领域，因为一些例子会自然浮现在我脑海中。

So if you were to get the realm of athletics because the things just pop into my head from from athletic stuff.

以穆罕默德·阿里为例，作为拳击手，他职业生涯的声誉——被广泛认为是有史以来最伟大的拳手——这可能是正确的。

And so if you look at Muhammad Ali and his career as a boxer and his probably reputation well deserved for being the greatest fighter ever, well, that's probably true.

但如果穆罕默德·阿里去打网球或下国际象棋，他可能就不会那么成功了。

But if Muhammad Ali needed to be a tennis player or a chess player, he might not have been so successful.

所以，如果你要定义成功，一定要明确你所谈论的是哪个领域。

So if you're gonna define success, make sure you you define what arena you're talking about.

仅仅说‘成功’这个词本身是远远不够的。

So just to say the word success in and of itself is is is too blooming.

这还不够。

It's it's not enough.

至于辛纳·雷德斯通或查理·芒格的家庭结构，我其实并不了解。

So I do not know the family structures of Sumner Redstone or Charlie Munger for that matter.

我猜查理·芒格的成功可能比萨纳·雷德斯通拥有更多维度，但这只是我个人的纯粹猜测。

I'm guessing that Charlie Munger's success probably has more dimensions to it than Sumner Redstone, but that is just a pure guess on my part.

关于查理·芒格，还有两点：你知道，如果你想成功，最好的方式就是配得上它。

And and two points about Charlie Munger was the notion of, you know, if you want if you want to be success, the best way to do that is to deserve it.

因此，他的行事理念是努力成为配得上自己所获成功的人。

So he operated with the idea of trying to be someone who deserved the success that that he he has earned.

我认为这是一种从根本上至关重要的做事方式。

I think that's a a fundamentally important way of doing these.

这既是一种商业实践。

And it there's a business practice.

也是一种由此衍生的生活准则。

There's a life practice that flows from that.

所以，如果我刚认识你，我们正在讨论一笔交易、一个项目或某种商业往来，而我说：‘威廉，相信我。’

So if if I just met you and we were we were talking about a deal or a project or some commercial transaction, And I said, William, trust me.

相信我。

Trust me.

相信我。

Trust me.

相信我。

Trust me.

如果你我并不相识，这几乎在100次中有99次都会让你产生一丝疑虑，而这是你无法避免的。

Trust You can't help it if, again, if we don't know one another, that is going to cause 99 times out of a 100, just a hint of doubt in you.

因为如果我不断说‘相信我，相信我，相信我’，你作为人的本能反应就是：我没法相信这个人。

Because if I say trust me, trust me, trust me, your natural human reaction is, I can't trust this guy.

如果我一开始就这么说，信任感是不会立刻建立的。

And the notion of trust is not gonna flow immediately if I started that way.

但假如我改口说：威廉，我相信你。

But if instead I say, William, I'm gonna trust you.

而且我确实做过一些工作，或有某种依据来表明‘我相信你’。

And I've done some work or some and some basis for saying, I trust you.

我相信你。

I trust you.

我相信你。

And I trust you.

我相信你。

I trust you.

我相信你。

I trust you.

我相信你。

I trust you.

首先以不求回报或平等的方式提供信任的表示，以无条件的方式去做，我观察到你会做出以下两种选择之一。

And offer the gesture of trust first without demanding reciprocation or equality, and just do that in an unconditional way, what I have observed is that either you will do one of two things.

你要么珍惜这份信任，要么违背它。

You will either honor that trust or you'll violate it.

如果你打算违背信任，你很可能很快就会这么做。

And if you're gonna violate the trust, you'll probably do it sooner rather than later.

这样一来，你就暴露了自己，而我们不会再有任何生意往来。

And in so doing, you'll have sorted yourself, and we're just not gonna do business again.

但如果你尊重这份信任并开始回报信任，就会产生一种连锁反应，这是你与他人关系中另一种复利效应。

But if you honor that trust and start to trust back, what happens is that starts to cascade, and it's another element of compounding that takes place in your relationship with people.

如果你先给予信任，先提供服务、先付出价值并主动发起，世界自会筛选和分层，为你带来足够多的人和机会。

If you trust first, if you offer that service, that that value first and you initiate that, the the world will sift and sort itself and orient and give you enough people and enough opportunities.

我们拥有这些不断累积的信任关系，随着时间推移，它们会变得无比美好。

We have these compounding trust relationships that it it just becomes marvelous over time.

同样的道理也适用于爱的世界。

Same thing would be said in a in in in the word of love.

如果我说‘爱我’，而你正在寻找伴侣、试图建立关系，你会说‘爱我’。

If I say love me and you're you're trying to meet somebody, you're trying to develop a relationship, you say love me.

爱我。

Love me.

爱我。

Love me.

爱我。

Love me.

我不认为这样会有效。

I don't think that's gonna work.

但如果你给予爱，并且无条件地给予，每个人都会爱你吗？

But if you if you offer love and then you offer it unconditionally, is everybody gonna love you back?

不会。

No.

但很多人会，而且他们会以持久、稳定、系统性的方式回应你。

But a lot of people will, and and they'll do it in enduring, consistent, systemic ways.

所以，要让自己成为信任和爱的发起者，但也不要太天真。

So just to orient yourself to be the initiator of trust and be the initiator of love, and then don't be stupid.

要回应并让信任和爱的关系不断积累增长，同时过滤掉那些没有回报的人。

Reciprocate and compound and grow the trust relationship and the love word relationship and filter out the ones where you're not getting reciprocity.

如果你坚持足够长的时间，比如四十多年，你会发现你拥有一群令人愉快、有趣的人际关系，它们让你愿意来办公室工作，而不是想跑去打高尔夫。

If you stay at the game long enough and have been at it forty some years, you'll find you have a wonderful group of people that are enjoyable, fun relationships that keep you coming in the office and doing what you're doing as opposed to wanting to go play golf instead.

现在对我而言，机会正在到来。

Chance working now for me.

你曾经告诉我，你把自己描述为神经网络中的一个节点，我觉得这个比喻非常有趣。

You once described yourself to me as a node in a neural network, which I thought was a really interesting image.

我越观察你，就越发现这是你的一大竞争优势：你周围的人在你的生态系统中都希望你好，并愿意帮助你。

And the the more I observe you, the more I've seen that this is one of your great competitive advantages, that that you're surrounded by people in your ecosystem who wish you well and wanna help you.

这是一件非常强大的事情。

And it's a remarkably powerful thing.

这是一种截然不同的游戏方式。

It's a it's a different way of playing the game.

而且这似乎也契合你的优势，因为你是个善于交际、外向的人。

And I I guess it sort of plays to your strengths as well because you're a sociable, gregarious guy.

但我很好奇，你是否曾看到过某个人——无论是你的父亲、巴菲特，还是格雷厄姆控股公司的某个人——让你觉得，这是一种非常聪明的处世方式。

But I'm wondering, did did was there somebody you saw, whether it was your father or Buffett or or some someone at Graham Holdings or whatever that you looked at and you're like, that's a really smart way of operating in the world.

或者不只是聪明，而且是正直、正确，让人感觉良好。

Or or not just smart, but decent and and right and feels good.

你这个问题的答案是：是的。

The answer to your question is yes.

有些人不知怎的，总是能与某些人相遇、接触或受到他们的影响，这些人反复地向我传授了这些教训。

There are people who have managed to somehow be around or bump into or be exposed to It taught me those lessons that have done it over and over and over and over again.

所以最早的一个例子就是我的父亲，因为我还是个孩子的时候，我观察他就是这样做的。

So one of the first ones would have been my father because I was a kid, and I was running and I observed him in that way.

至于你提到的公众人物，比如唐·格雷厄姆或者沃伦·巴菲特。

As in the public figures that you speak of, somebody like Don Graham or somebody like Warren Buffett.

我多年来亲自观察过他们，并在成年后从中学习到了这些。

I've observed that in them personally for multiple decades and have learned that as as an adult.

但这些经验并不会变得陈旧，也不会过时。

But it doesn't grow stale or it doesn't grow old.

就在最近三十到六十天内，弗吉尼亚州里士满发生了一件事，那里有一位先生。

And as recently as within the last thirty to sixty days, there was a circumstance and a situation in Richmond, Virginia, where there was a gentleman.

我对这位先生相当了解。

And I've known this guy reasonably well.

我们并不特别亲密，但我认识他已经有三十五年甚至四十年了。

We're not we're not real close, but I've but I've known him reasonably well for probably the better part of thirty five or forty years.

他在里士满也相当有名。

And there was a and and he's reasonably well known around Richmond.

他在世人眼中是成功的，但我也了解他的孩子们，这让他同样成功。

He's successful both in the terms that the world might immediately jump to as successful, but he's also successful in that I know his children.

他们都是好人。

And they're they're good people.

和他们在一起很愉快。

They're fun to be around.

他们没有像有些人那样被财富扭曲。

They they have not been warped by affluence in the way that that that some are.

他们自己也很成功。

They they are successful as well.

当你看到这种基于善意、爱与信任的成就，能够持续数代人在财务和人性层面都取得成功时，你所面对的是一种非凡的现象，值得你关注并从中学习。

And I think when you see that sort of kindness and love based and trust based that that is both financially and in human terms successful for multiple generations, you're really looking at something special, and you ought to pay attention and try to learn something from that.

我和他交谈时，不知怎的提到，他每天起床后的第一个念头就是：我能为别人做些什么？

And I was in a conversation with him, and somehow it came up that he said, well, he gets up every day, and the first thought he has is how can he do something for somebody?

他怎么能帮助别人呢？

How can he help somebody?

如果我遇到一个我并不认识三十五年或四十年的人，这是我们第一次见面，我对他们一无所知。

Now if somebody who I did not know for thirty five or forty years and I was meeting on first first occasion, and I didn't know a single thing about them.

当你听到有人这么说时，自然会感到怀疑。

There's a natural, skepticism that one has when you hear somebody say something like that.

因为你不禁会想，他们的动机是什么？到底发生了什么？

Because you wonder, you know, what's their angle or what what what's going on here really?

但当你逐渐了解一个人，并能亲身感受到这一切确实是真诚的，而且你能看到这个人三十五年或四十年来的实际表现——是的，我认为他确实言出必行，并且一遍又一遍地践行着。

But as as you get to know somebody and you can have some sense personally that that is indeed genuine and you can see thirty five or forty years of track record of how it's worked out for that person because, yeah, I think he really does mean what he says, and he does that over and over and over and over again.

我也曾努力这样生活。

Again, I've tried to live this.

我当然从小就接触并被教导要这样做，但就在最近，我想大概是六十到九十天前，我有机会和一个人喝杯咖啡或聊一聊，这个人是three:thirty

I've certainly been exposed to it and been taught that from my my earliest memory, but yet here it is within the last, I think, sixty or ninety days, there was an occasion where I had a chance to drink a cup of coffee or or talk to somebody who three:thirty

我稍微认识一点的人。

who I knew a little bit.

那是他的核心理念。

And that was his core message.

就是每天早上起床。

Just getting up in the morning.

比如，我今天能做些什么来帮助别人？

Like, what can I do today that will help somebody?

我亲眼看到他这样做了四十年。

And I've seen him do it for forty years.

所以当你经常接触这些时，就会学到这类东西。

So you learn those kinds of things when you're exposed to them on a regular basis.

让我们短暂休息一下，听听今天赞助商的话。

Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

你知道是什么让最优秀的企业脱颖而出吗？

You know what sets the best businesses apart?

那就是他们如何利用创新将复杂性转化为增长。

It's how they leverage innovation to turn complexity into growth.

这正是亚马逊广告在做的事情，由AWS人工智能驱动。

That's exactly what Amazon Ads is doing, powered by AWS AI.

每天，亚马逊广告处理数十亿次实时决策，优化整个310亿美元广告生态系统中的广告效果。

Every day, Amazon Ads processes billions of real time decisions, optimizing ad performance across a $31,000,000,000 advertising ecosystem.

结果是广告活动运行速度提升30%，并实现大规模的可衡量业务影响。

The result is campaigns that run 30% faster and deliver measurable business impact at scale.

而这正是亚马逊自身推动增长的方式。

And this is how Amazon itself drives growth.

他们的代理式人工智能将营销从一个资源密集型流程转变为智能自主系统，最大化投资回报率，并赋能营销人员专注于创意与战略。

Their agentic AI transforms marketing from a resource heavy process into an intelligent autonomous system that maximizes ROI and empowers marketers to focus on creativity and strategy.

亚马逊广告正在证明，人工智能驱动的广告不仅仅是未来，更是新的竞争优势。

Amazon Ads is proving that AI driven advertising isn't just the future, it's the new competitive advantage.

更棒的是，每一家企业都可以应用亚马逊内部完善同样的创新方法论。

And better yet, every enterprise can apply the same innovation playbook that Amazon perfected in house.

前往 aws.comai/rstory 了解亚马逊广告的故事。

See the Amazon Ads story at aws.comai/rstory.

那就是 aws.com/ai/rstory。

That's aws.com/ai/rstory.

初创公司行动迅速。

Startups move fast.

借助人工智能，它们交付产品更快，并更早吸引企业客户。

And with AI, they're shipping even faster and attracting enterprise buyers sooner.

但大单带来了更大的安全和合规要求。

But big deals bring even bigger security and compliance requirements.

SOC 2 并不总是足够。

A SOC two isn't always enough.

适当的安全措施可以促成或破坏一笔交易。

The right kind of security can make a deal or break it.

但哪位创始人或工程师能抽时间离开公司建设呢？

But what founder or engineer can afford to take time away from building their company?

Vanta 的人工智能和自动化让企业在几天内即可准备好承接大单。

Vanta's AI and automation make it easy to get big deals ready in days.

Vanta 会持续监控您的合规状态，确保未来的交易不会受阻。

And Vanta continuously monitors your compliance so future deals are never blocked.

此外，Vanta 会随着您的业务成长而扩展，并在每一步都提供及时的支持。

Plus Vanta scales with you, backed by support that's there when you need it every step of the way.

随着人工智能改变法规和买家的期望，Vanta 深知何时需要什么，并已构建了最快、最简便的路径，帮助您达成目标。

With AI changing regulations and buyers' expectations, Vanta knows what's needed and when, and they've built the fastest, easiest path to help you get there.

因此，认真的初创公司都会早早通过 Vanta 实现安全合规。

That's why serious startups get secure early with Vanta.

我们的听众可在 vanta.com/billionaires 获得 1000 美元优惠。

Our listeners get $1,000 off at vanta.com/billionaires.

访问 vanta.com/billionaires，立减 1000 美元。

That's vanta.com/billionaires for $1,000 off.

新的一年到了，这是最终开始您一直梦想的事业的最佳时机。

It's the new year, which means that it's the best time to finally start the business you've been dreaming about.

几年前，我启动了自己的电子商务业务，而 Shopify 正是我起步所需的完美工具。

Just a couple years ago, I launched my own e commerce business and Shopify was exactly the tool I needed to get started.

当许多人不断将梦想推迟到明年时，我要告诉你们，现在就是抓住眼前机遇的时候。

While many people continually push off their dreams until the next year, I am here to tell you that now is the time to capitalize on the opportunities right in front of you.

Shopify 为你提供在线和线下销售所需的一切工具。

Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person.

数百万创业者，包括我自己，都已经完成了这一跃，从普通人变成了刚刚起步的创业者。

Millions of entrepreneurs, including myself, have already made this leap from household names to first time business owners just getting started.

你可以从数百个精美的模板中选择，并自定义它们，同时使用其内置的 AI 工具撰写产品描述或编辑产品图片。

Choose from hundreds of beautiful templates that you can customize and use their built in AI tools to write product descriptions or edit product photos.

随着你的成长，Shopify 也会在每一步与你共同成长。

And as you grow, Shopify grows with you every step of the way.

在 2026 年，别再等待，立即开始使用 Shopify 销售吧。

In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify.

注册每月 1 美元的试用版，今天就前往 shopify.com/wsb 开始销售。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/wsb.

前往 shopify.com/wsb。

Go to shopify.com/wsb.

那就是 shopify.com/wsb。

That's shopify.com/wsb.

今年伊始，让 Shopify 伴你同行。

Hear your first This new year with Shopify by your side.

好的。

Alright.

继续回到节目。

Back to the show.

有趣的是，即使在投资领域——我们通常认为这是一个高度竞争的零和游戏，你获利就意味着别人受损——这竟然也如此有用。

It's curious how this turns out to be incredibly helpful even in the investment business, which we kind of assume is this ultra competitive zero sum game where somebody has to suffer for you to benefit.

在某种程度上，也许确实如此。

And to some degree, maybe that's true.

但我在你的生活中，以及像我那位老朋友盖伊·斯皮尔这样的人身上，看到了我书中所说的‘正派人效应’，你们就是正派人。

But I see in your life and in the life of someone like my great old friend Guy Spear that you guys embody what I call in my book the mensch effect where, you know, you're mensch.

你们努力成为正直、善良的人，很多人都是如此。

You're you're trying to be decent, kind human beings, lots of people.

我看到世界似乎在围绕你自发组织起来，有很多人愿意帮助你。

And I see the world kind of organizing itself around you, so there are lots of people trying to help you.

前几天我和我们的共同朋友乔什·塔拉索夫聊天，他是一位出色的对冲基金经理，我记得他多年前曾跟你聊过亚马逊，后来你听了他的建议后买了亚马逊的股票。

And I was chatting with Josh Tarasoff, a mutual friend of ours the other day, excellent hedge fund manager, who I remember he was talking to you about Amazon years ago, and you ended up buying Amazon after discussing it with him.

这种情况似乎经常发生在你身上——人们以一种近乎无私的方式交换信息，但也许这也是因为当时他投资了马克尔公司，而你在这方面表现得尤为突出，这对人们很有启发性，因为它暗示了经商和投资还有另一种方式，这种方式实际上需要一定的勇气。

And it seems like that's happened to you a lot right where people are exchanging information in a way that's kind of selfless but maybe it's also because at the time he was invested in Markel but you have that to an extraordinary degree and it's instructive for people because I think it it suggests that there's another way of going about business and investing that's actually more it it requires a degree of courage.

对吧？

Right?

因为这不仅仅是把所有东西都藏起来不与人分享。

Because it's it's it's not just guarding everything for yourself.

嗯，这既是勇气，也是怯懦。

Well, it's both courage and cowardice at the same time.

因为所有这些事情都是相互关联的，我认为你所谈论的时间框架决定了你如何定义这些事情。

Because if you really and all these things tie together, and I think the time frames in which you're talking dictates so much of how you would frame things.

所以，如果你谈论的是短期交易情况，比如比特币、猪腩肉或期权，这些通常以日为单位衡量，甚至可能是每分每秒或纳秒级别的波动，这些确实往往是零和博弈，有赢就有输。

So if you're talking about a short term situation where you're trading, I don't know, pick whatever it is, that that Bitcoin or pork bellies or options, which tend to be measured on day to day, if not moment to moment or second to second or nanosecond to second kinda kinda measures, those do tend to be win loss games and create there's zero sum.

如果你赢了，别人就输了。

And if you win, some somebody else loses.

但当你把时间跨度拉长到五年、十年、五十年，甚至一生的尺度时，我认为你有机会玩双赢的游戏，这是一种完全不同的思维方式。

But when you stretch those time horizons out over five, ten, 50 lifetime kinda measurements, I think you have the opportunity to play win win games, and that's just an entirely different way of thinking.

这有一个很好的例子，说明了从商业角度来看，这种做法可以多么成功。

And there's an illustration of that, of how this can be so successful from a business point of view.

我记得几年前在伯克希尔年会上，查理·芒格常常一语中的，点出行为的本质——努力做个正直的人，做正确的事，从长远角度思考。

I can remember a couple years ago at the Berkshire annual meeting, and Charlie Munger, oftentimes just puts his finger right on it in terms of behavior and just trying to be stand up people and do the right thing and think longer term.

他回应某个问题时说：‘你们是怎么做到的？’

He said in response to some some question, how do you do it?

你们是怎么做到的？

How do you do it?

你们是怎么做到的？

How do you do it?

一群年轻、敏锐的人不断追问，试图理解伯克希尔。

The endless questions of young, agilant types trying to figure out Berkshire.

他说，你看。

He said, look.

我们当时只是两个在电话里聊天的人，而现在我们的规模已经超过了通用电气。

We were two guys talking on the phone, and now we are bigger than General Electric.

这本不该发生。

That should not have happened.

他只是想说明一个观点：通用电气在很多方面迷失了方向。

And he was just trying to illustrate the point that, the General Electric was a company that in many ways lost its way.

它曾拥有巨大的优势。

It had huge epic advantages.

如果你回溯五十年前，看看通用电气当时拥有的业务组合及其在社会中的地位，再对比伯克希尔·哈撒韦当时的位置，恐怕很难预见或预测伯克希尔会在许多可衡量的指标上更成功，但事实确实如此。

You go back fifty years ago and you look at whatever collection of businesses and whatever place in society General Electric occupied versus whatever position Berkshire Hathaway occupied fifty years ago, I think it would have been hard to foresee and bet and predict that that Berkshire was going to be the one that would be more successful in many of the measurable metrics that that you would think about, but that is indeed what happened.

芒格会建议他常常用的一个词是‘理性’。

And and Munger would suggest the word that he likes to use a lot is rational.

他会说，巴菲特和他每天都在尽力做出理性的决策。

And he would say, Buffett and he do their best to make rational decisions day after day after day after day.

我会进一步说，当你在玩一个有限的输赢游戏时，理性看起来与你在玩一个无限的双赢游戏时完全不同。

I would extend that and say, rationality looks different when you're playing a finite win lose game than what it looks like when you're playing an infinite win win game.

我认为，如果我没记错名字的话，是詹姆斯·卡斯写过关于无限游戏的内容。

And I think it was James Kors, if I'm remembering the name correctly, who wrote about the infinite game.

他谈到，在有限游戏中，是有规则的。

And he talked about, you know, in a in a finite game, there are rules.

它有一个时间段。

There's a there's a period of time.

它是有限的，有赢家也有输家。

It's finite, and there's a winner and there's a loser.

这就是有限游戏的定义。

And that's the definition of a finite game.

无限游戏往往没有那么多规则，也没有明确的时间界限。

Infinite games tend to not have so many rules, and and they don't have a time horizon potential.

无限游戏中唯一的首要原则是，所有玩家都必须感到自己在赢，因为如果他们不这么觉得，就会退出游戏，游戏也就不再无限了。

And the only the only prime directive that exists in the infinite game is that all of the players of the game have to feel that they're winning because if they don't, they're gonna stop playing, and the game is no longer infinite.

所以我只想玩一场无限游戏。

So I just wanna play an infinite game.

我在这方面非常幸运，拥有诸多优势：良好的成长环境、教育背景，以及从未担心过下一顿饭从哪里来，或能否接受良好教育的基础。

And then I'm fortunate in in so many ways, the advantages I had, the upbringing, the education, the the base of never worried about where my next meal was gonna come from or getting a good education.

我还要补充一点，对我而言，接下来最重要的事情就是娶了苏珊。

And I would extend that to I mean, the next most substantive thing that happened to me was getting married to Susan.

我19岁就和她结婚了。

And I was married to her by age 19.

当我看到好东西时，我就知道它是好东西。

I knew a good thing when I saw it.

她一直是一位非凡的伴侣，在许多方面支撑着我所做的一切。

And she's been a spectacular partner that in so many ways has undergirded so so much of what I've done.

你知道，她一直有稳定的工作，生活节俭，总是照顾好我生活中的75%，让我能全身心投入自己这一部分事业，而她则为我打理好其他所有事情。

You know, because she was she was gainfully employed and frugal and just always always took care of 75% of my life that I was really able to concentrate on this piece of my life and know that she had me covered for for everything else.

这种伙伴关系，是这类事情随着时间推移得以实现和发展的关键因素。

So that that kind of partnership is is a crucial component of how these sorts of things unfold and happen over time.

是的。

Yeah.

她是一位了不起的女性，而且经营着一家不错的生意。

She's a remarkable woman, and she runs a good business too.

确实如此。

She does indeed.

对于不了解的人，汤姆的妻子苏珊——他大约15岁时在新泽西州塞勒姆的冻酸奶店第一次约会认识的——如今也为马克尔公司经营着一家非常成功的业务，是一位非凡的人物。

For people who don't know, Tom's wife, Susan, who he met, I think, when he was 15 and went on his first date at the Custard Stand in in Salem, New Jersey, now runs a very successful business for for Markel as well and is a a remarkable person.

所以，汤姆，你1990年接管投资组合时在马克尔公司买的第一只股票是伯克希尔，当时股价大约是5750美元，现在呢，大概是46.7万美元左右？

So, Tom, you the first stock you bought back at Markel where you took charge the investment portfolio in 1990 was Berkshire back when I think the stock was at around 5,750, and now it's, what, 467,000, something like that?

差不多吧。

Something like that.

它如何体现你评估企业的四大标准？

How does it embody the four filters that you have for looking at a business?

因为显然，你持有的伯克希尔股份已经增长到了大约十亿美元左右。

Because it's obviously it's it's grown to, I think, the best part of a billion dollars, your stake in in Berkshire.

如果我们想向听众解释什么是好企业，什么是通过这四个过滤器的企业，那么伯克希尔在某种程度上是不是完美的体现？

If we're trying to explain to listeners what a good business looks like, what a business that passes these four filters looks like, how is this in some sense the perfect embodiment of that?

这就像一个老笑话。

Well, it's like the old joke.

你知道，如果你想要查字典里的某个词的定义，翻到那里就会看到某人的照片。

You know, if you wanted some word definition in the dictionary, you looked it up and there was somebody's picture there.

如果你想知道我们用来思考投资的四个过滤器或四个视角的体现，翻开书，里面出现的照片就是伯克希尔。

Well, if you want the embodiment of what the four filters are the the four lenses that we use to think about investments and you open the book, it would be the picture of Berkshire there.

这四个过滤器中的每一个，首先，是一个能以较低债务水平获得良好资本回报的好企业。

So each of those four filters, first off, a good business that earns good returns on capital without using too much debt to do it.

如果你看看伯克希尔在长期经营的各种业务中的资本回报率，它们都非常出色。

So if you look at the returns on capital that Berkshire has earned in the various businesses they've been in for a long period of time, they are very good.

他们一直通过言论、文字和行动表明：债务本身并不错，也没有道德上的问题，他们也不是完全不用债务，但相比大多数人在相同情况下，他们使用的债务非常少。

And they've spoken and written and acted in such a way that they've they've talked about it's not that debt is wrong or there's any moral dimension to it, and it's not that they don't use some debt, but they use very little and comparatively less than than most other people would in the in the same situation or circumstances.

之所以如此，是因为债务会为系统带来脆弱性。

And the reason for that is debt introduces fragility into the system.

你现在可能在自己擅长的领域非常出色。

Now you might be very good at what you do.

你可能拥有一个不错的企业。

You may have a fine business.

但如果你在不恰当的时候面临利息账单，就可能失去继续玩这场无限游戏的机会。

But if you have an interest bill that comes due at an inopportune time, you may lose the opportunity to continue playing your infinite game.

所以第一步，好的企业，高资本回报率，且负债不多。

So step number one, good business, good returns on capital without too much debt.

符合。

Check.

符合。

Check.

符合。

Check.

第二个视角是管理团队，兼具才能与诚信。

Lens number two is management teams with equal measures of talent and integrity.

这些贷款条件中的许多，我并不是自己编造的。

And so many of these lenders, I did not make these up myself.

我是从巴菲特、芒格以及许多其他人那里学到的。

I learned them from people like Buffett and Munger and so many many others.

但如果你观察他们多年来的行为，显然，伯克希尔自身的回报率反映了他们所具备的才能，以及整个伯克希尔体系内所蕴含的才能和行为、个人诚信。

But if you look at how they have behaved over so many years, clearly, the returns on capital that Berkshire's own suggest the talent that they have and the talent that is embedded within the entire system of Berkshire and the behavior, the personal integrity.

他们始终为股东提供了极为优厚的条件。

They've always given the shareholders an epically good deal in terms of their cut.

他们绝大部分的财富都是通过持有伯克希尔股票获得的，并享有与股东完全相同的经济利益。

They've made the vast, vast, and vast majority of their wealth through owning Berkshire shares and enjoying the exact same economics as what a shareholder does.

这些并不是他们作为管理者而非股东所能获得的经济回报。

It's not economics that they would have earned as managers rather than shareholders.

所以，这就是检验标准。

So that's the test, there.

第三点，这正是伯克希尔脱颖而出、并在诸多方面树立了典范的地方。

Point number three, and this is really where Berkshire has distinguished itself and in so many ways set the role model and the example.

我们在马克尔公司所追求的是，这家企业是否具备资本纪律，能否找到收购机会来再投资其产生的现金流，或者在收购、股票回购或股息支付方面展现出良好的资本配置能力？

What we're trying to do at Markel is does the does the business have capital discipline, and can they find acquisitions to reinvest the cash they make or have capital discipline in terms of being good at acquisitions, or share repurchases or dividend payments?

五十多年前，伯克希尔还是一家非常非常小的企业，但它已经能盈利了。

Well, Berkshire had a a tiny, tiny business fifty years ago, and they made money.

直到最近一两年，他们一直致力于将这些利润再投资于现有业务或通过收购开拓新业务。

And up until within the last year or two, they had taken on the challenge of reinvesting that money in their existing businesses or new businesses through acquisitions.

你可以想象一位奥运跳水运动员，评判标准不仅包括动作完成的质量，还包括动作的难度系数。

So if you think about an Olympic diver and, you know, you're judged not only in how well you execute the dive, but the degree of difficulty of that dive.

如果你有一个非常好的企业，能产生极高的回报，但你却经常把钱以股息或股票回购的形式分出去，那你所做的只是难度较低的跳水动作。

So if you have a very good business and it and it makes excellent returns, but you pay the money out in dividends or share repurchases on a pretty regular basis, well, what you're doing is a dive of only a certain degree of difficulty.

这就像一个向后翻腾的跳水动作，你能完成得很好，拿到满分10分。

If you take it's it's it's a swan dive, and you can do it and get a 10 o.

但如果只是简单的向后翻腾，得分上限就会受限，因为这种动作的难度远不如那些包含三周半翻腾加反身转体的高难度动作。

But if it's just a swan dive, you will only get but so high a score because the degree of difficulty involved in doing that is not as much as when you introduce the triple axial reverse lunge twist kind of dives.

那些高难度动作更难完成。

Those dives are harder to do.

要想像完成跳台跳水那样精准地完成这些动作，你才能成为奥运冠军。

And to execute them well and with the same degree of precision that you can execute on a swan dive, that's how you become an Olympic champion.

如果你看看伯克希尔在过去三十、四十、五十甚至六十年里的行为和执行能力，完成如此高难度的‘跳水’，正是伯克希尔的特别之处——这种再投资的视角和第三条腿的再投资特质。

And if you look at Berkshire's behavior and execution of an incredibly difficult dive for thirty, forty, fifty, sixty years, that's what makes Berkshire special is that reinvestment lens and that reinvestment aspect of the third leg there.

第四点，其实是最不重要的，就是价格不合适。

And then the fourth, and it's really the least important is if is price doesn't work.

你能否以这样的价格买入，使得企业本身的回报大致相当于股东所能获得的回报？

Can you buy this at such a price that the returns of the business itself are gonna roughly match what you as a as a shareholder will receive.

这意味着，当你发现这三项条件都具备时，不要支付荒谬的高价；你的决策应基于执行过程，而不是企业本身固有的表现。

And that just mean don't pay so ridiculous a high price when you find those three things, but you default is yours in your execution of the of the purchase decision rather than what intrinsically happened at the business itself.

现在，这正是加入马克尔公司结构所带来的巨大优势所在。

Now here's where the advantage of being part of the structure at Markel is so helpful.

我绝大部分的时间都花在判断这三个视角是否具备上。

I spend the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of my time on seeing whether those first three lenses are there.

如果它们确实存在，即使我认为这个标的价格严重高估，我通常还是会逼自己买进一点点。

And if they are, and even if I conclude that this thing is is way overpriced, I usually make myself buy just a little bit of it.

然后三到六个月过去后，我会重新审视我的投资逻辑，思考那三个首要因素是否依然存在。

And then three months or six months go by and I sort of revisit my thesis and I think about whether those those first three factors are still there.

如果它们依然强劲，我会强迫自己再买进一点。

And and if they're there in in in strengths, I make myself buy a little bit more.

有时市场会出现极端的错配，或者由于某种原因，价格发生了变化。

And then sometimes there'll be extreme dislocations in the markets or for some some reason or another, the price will change.

由于我已经持有一小部分并对此有了了解，这在心理上让我更有勇气在类似情况出现时加大投入。

Well, by virtue of already owning a little bit and make myself familiar with it, it it emboldens me psychologically to take a bigger swing when something like that comes along.

即使价格从未达到让你惊叹‘这价格太棒了’的程度，但只要你持续认为这是一家非凡的企业。

And even if it never gets to the point where you think, wow, this is an incredible price, but you keep thinking this is incredible business.

如果你发现自己年复一年、每季度都买入，而且你对那三个核心因素的判断始终正确，最终你会获得一项非凡的投资，因为你支付的价格将被企业自身的卓越品质所超越和淹没。

If you find yourself buying it every quarter for year after year after year, and and you're right about your underwriting decision on those first three aspects, you end up with a spectacular investment because the price you're paying gets gets overtaken and swamped by the the quality of the business itself.

某种程度上，这和你的个人退休账户（IRA）是同样的道理，小时候你就不断往里存钱，无论好坏。

And in a way, it's the same lesson as your IRA, right, where as a kid where you just keep adding to the pot through thick and thin.

然后三十年、四十年后你回头看，会惊叹：哇。

And then you look back thirty, forty years later and you're like, wow.

这是

It's

对。

Right.

然后，人们常常会感到困惑，因为他们看到我们持有的大量股票，便认为哇。

And then and then there are oftentimes people are kinda confused by they see the long list of stocks that we own, and they think that, wow.

这看起来并不很有纪律，似乎到处分散。

That that doesn't seem very disciplined and it seems sort of splattered all about.

但这实际上是耕作的过程。

But that's really the farming process.

我们种下很多种子，看看哪些会发芽，哪些种子会成长。

There are lot of seeds that are planted to see which things are gonna emerge and which of those seeds.

回到你提到的彼得·林奇的观点，他谈过卖出赢家的愚蠢行为，称之为摘花浇草；他在书中提到——顺便说一句，这本书是我祖母给我的，或者说是某人给的——要保持不提前获利的纪律，而这是人类的天性。

To go back to your Peter Lynch idea, he talked about the foolishness of selling your winners, and he called that picking the flowers and watering the weeds and talked in in his book, which my grandmother gave me, by the way, or whoever that, you know, the the discipline of not taking a profit prematurely, which is a human tendency.

你希望这样做。

You wanna do that.

你庆祝胜利的巡游，终点旗帜升起。

You you celebrate the victory lap, the checkered flag rises.

回到我的IRA故事，我对此记忆犹新。

And getting back to my IRA story, I remember this vividly.

我差点就在我自己的家得宝故事上做了一件极其、极其、极其愚蠢的事。

I came this close to doing something truly, truly, truly stupid with my own Home Depot story.

幸运的是，我劝住了自己，或者不知怎么的，我避开了这笔交易。

And and fortunately, I talked myself out of it or or somehow or another I averted this particular trade.

在房地产危机之后，家得宝的表现非常好。

So coming out of the housing crisis, Home Depot was really doing quite well.

我的意思是，他们证明了翻新模式比新建模式更具韧性，运营得非常出色。

I mean, they they proved that the renovation model as opposed to new construction was more durable, just operating really well.

我一时之间，尤其是因为它在我IRA账户里，想着可以卖出覆盖性看涨期权。

And I thought I thought for a nanosecond, especially because it was in my IRA, I could write covered calls on it.

你知道的，为了赚取一点额外现金，以便有更多资金进行投资。

You know, to generate a little more cash and have a little more cash to invest.

幸运的是，这个想法在我付诸行动前就消失了，因为如果我真的那样做了，这些看涨期权就会被行权。

And and, fortunately, that thought passed before I did so because had I done that, those calls would have been exercised.

而家得宝公司可能会在2011年或2012年左右被卖出。

And and that Home Depot would have been sold in 2011 or '12 or something like that.

我会错失拥有家得宝公司未来十年可能带来的收益，因为我只追求短期收益，庆祝一次成功的交易，却错过了这家真正改变投资格局的公司——它不仅影响了我的IRA投资结果，也影响了马克尔公司的整体投资表现。

I would have missed the last decade potentially of what came from owning Home Depot because I would have taken a short term win and celebrated a win and had a had a great trade, but missed an epic sort of moving the needle kinda company that has influenced the investment results, not just from my IRA, but from from Markel in total.

这是我们第三大持仓。

That's our that's our third largest holding.

所以这很重要。

So it's a it matters.

当我思考你职业生涯中的教训时，某种程度上，这完美体现了芒格的教导：你应当专注于避免那些常见的愚蠢行为。

When I think about the lessons of your career, in some ways, it's a it's a perfect embodiment of Munger's Munger's teaching that you wanna be focusing on avoiding standard stupidities.

对吧？

Right?

正是你避开的那些事情，才没有破坏复利的进程。

It's it's all the things that you avoided that didn't mess up the compounding journey.

你能谈谈这一点吗？

Can you talk about that a bit?

因为你确实做过一些事情，比如控制开支、量入为出、戒掉做空、不预测利率和通胀等未来走势，只是坚持你的四个筛选标准。

Because there are there are these things you've done, like keeping your expenses low, living within your means, weaning yourself away from shorting stuff, not predicting the future moves of interest rates and inflation and the like and and just sort of sticking to your four filters.

在我看来，这些做法是可以复制的。

It seems to me this is replicable.

实际上，你没做的很多事，作为普通投资者，我们也可以不去做——如果我表达得没错的话。

There's actually a lot that you don't do that we can also not do as regular investors if I'm expressing that correctly.

我认为这是对的。

Well, I think that's true.

喜剧演员杰瑞·赛恩菲尔德有一个关于无意识雪橇的精彩段子，你不妨去看看雪橇比赛。

And and the fact, the comedian Jerry Seinfeld has a great routine about the involuntary luge and just, like, go watch the luge competition.

这些运动员穿着精度达到微米级别的服装，训练肌肉，磨利刀刃，沿着雪橇道滑下，到达终点时速度极快。

And these people are wearing these micro micrometer level clothing, and they've trained their muscles and have this sharpened blade to go down the down the luge, and you get to the bottom of the luge at a certain speed.

决定金牌得主与第四名——那个空手离开奥林匹亚的人——之间差异的，往往只有百分之几秒。

And the it's gonna be hundreds of a second that determine the difference between the gold medal winner and the fourth place person who was going away from the Olympus with nothing.

杰里·塞infeld有一个常见的比喻，但我在这里无法充分表达。

Well, Jerry Seinfeld has this common machine, and I can't do it justice here.

那么结果会怎样呢？

So what would be the result?

如果随便从观众席拉一个人，让他直接滑下雪橇道，会落后多少？

How how far behind would be the person that they just sort of grab out of the spectator line and chuck him down the luge?

你知道，这个人肯定拿不到金牌，但我认为，只要你不被甩出雪橇道，所用的时间并不会比那些经过专业训练的奥运级雪橇运动员差太多。

You know, it's not gonna win the gold medal, but I think you'll find that the time, as long as you don't get hurled from the luge track, is not gonna be massively different than the person who was trained to be a great Olympic caliber luge athlete.

你可以从投资的角度来思考这一点，就像你刚才提到的成本、交易和税收，它们在其中占据了非常大的比重。

And you think about that in terms of investment and those things you just talked about of of costs and trading and taxes being such a a huge bit of that.

因此，投资世界本身，如果你想想那些成功企业通过高资本回报率所实现的复利效应，这就像是给你提供了一条下坡的滑道。

So the investment world in and of itself, and if you think about the compounding that takes place within businesses that are successful in earning good returns on capital, that is giving you a downhill loose tube to ride in.

当你开始投资大型公司、上市公司时，你并不是在试图逆坡滑下雪橇。

You know, when you when you start investing in major companies and in, you know, publicly traded companies, you you're not trying to go downhill in an uphill luge.

只需允许自己利用已经存在的力量即可。

Just give yourself permission to take advantage of the force that's already there.

那么，是什么区分了真正的业余爱好者或那些会为此丧命的人，与那些能取得不错成绩的人呢？

So then what separates the true amateur or the person who's gonna who's gonna die doing this from the person who's ends up posting a pretty good time?

关键在于尽可能减少摩擦，避免进入那些力量失控、把你甩出滑道的弯道。

It's the ability to minimize friction as much as possible and not get in those curves where the forces overtake you and throw you out of the lose track.

因此，通过保持这种纪律，我只是试图沿着那条滑道下滑，这条滑道存在于那些成功服务客户、关心他人、始终秉持创造积极影响并帮助客户理念的公司之中。

So by maintaining this discipline, I'm just trying to ride down that lose track that is there in the context of businesses that are successful at serving their customers and taking care of people and and, you know, always going back to that notion of a company that makes a positive, difference and and helps their customers out.

你正处在一条下坡滑道上。

You're in a downhill luge.

只要待在滑道里，别被甩出去，也不要以增加摩擦的方式操作滑道。

Just stay in the luge and and don't get hurled out of it and and don't operate it in such a way that you increase the friction that that's there or not.

我想，被甩出滑道并造成灾难性后果的最好方式之一，就是与不可信的人合作。

I guess one of the best ways of getting thrown out of the luge and and messing up disastrously is by partnering with people who are untrustworthy.

你经常把基金经理称为他人储蓄的守护者和牧羊人。

And and you've often talked about money managers as custodians and and shepherds of other people's savings.

对吧？

Right?

我记得克里斯·戴维斯曾经对我说，你实际上让他摆脱了成为基金经理的道德枷锁，因为你向他解释了‘托管’和‘值得信赖’这个理念，他心想，好吧。

I remember Chris Davis once saying to me that you'd actually freed him from the the moral straight jacket of becoming a money manager because you you explained this notion of stewardship and being trustworthy, and he thought, okay.

所以，也许正如查理所说，这是一份低微的职业，但它确实是一份职业。

So so maybe maybe as Charlie would say, it's a low vocation, but it is a vocation.

我想问你一下，当你在评估经理或寻找合作伙伴时，如何判断他们的才能和诚信？你具体在寻找什么？

And I wonder if I could ask you, like, when you're when you're trying to appraise the talent and integrity of managers or or you're trying to appraise the talent and integrity of people to partner with, what what are you looking for?

我的意思是，显然我们需要与那些把我们的利益放在首位的人合作。

I mean, because, obviously, we need to partner with people who are gonna put our interest first.

在投资行业，有很多人根本不是这么想的。

And in the investment business, there are a hell of a lot of them who are not out to do that.

对吧？

Right?

他们处于生存模式，首先考虑的是自己。

They're in survival mode where they're they're looking out for themselves first.

有哪些迹象可以看出来？

What what are the tells?

当你试图判断一个人是否会为你着想时，有哪些线索呢？

What are the clues when you're trying to assess whether whether someone is gonna look out for you or not?

大多数人身后都留下了一串足迹。

Most people have a have a trail behind them.

他们曾经合作过的人，了解他们，如果你花一点时间做些尽职调查，就能大致判断出这个人是让周围的人变得更好还是更糟。

There are people that they've done business with, that know them, that if you spend a little bit of time and do a little bit of due diligence, you can kinda get this rough, rough sense of that this is a person who makes the people around them better off or or worse off.

我认为这并不像你想象的那么困难。

I I don't think that is as impossible a task as what you think.

你必须保持警惕，敏锐地察觉你的假设是每天被证实还是被推翻。

And you gotta keep your eyes open and be sensitive to if your thesis is confirmed day by day or or disconfirmed day by day.

再次回到之前对话中提到的那一点：你先给予信任。

Again, getting back to that conversation the earlier point in the conversation where you offer trust.

你先信任对方，而这种信任要么得到回报，要么遭到背叛。

You trust first, And that trust is either reciprocated or violated.

通过一生中不断这样做，你不仅建立了人际关系网络，也成为了这张信任之网中的一个节点。

And just through a lifetime of doing that sort of thing, both you build that network of relationships, become one of the one of the nodes on that on that web of trust.

而你和这些人之间的关系会随着时间推移不断积累，变得越来越强大。

And and the people that you have it with, it it compounds and becomes bigger and bigger over time.

顺便说一句，新人加入这个节点最好的方式，是得到已经在这个节点上的人的背书。

And by the way, the the best way for a new person to come on to that node is for them to be vouched for by by someone who was already on the node.

所以我相信，你在过去几年为所写的人物做尽职调查时，肯定不只是和他们本人交谈。

So I'm I'm sure, again, in the due diligence you would have done for the people you've written about over the years, you you didn't just talk to the person that you were writing about.

你还和那些与他们有过往来的人交谈，以确认你是否走在正确的轨道上。

You you talked to other people who had dealings with that person to kinda see if you were on the right track or not.

我猜测，你的判断准确率应该相当高。

And I I suspect I think your hit ratio is probably pretty good.

如果你今天重新开始写这本书，而不是十年前，我敢说，你现在的水平可能会更高，因为你过去十年一直在实践这个过程，已经形成了自己的过滤机制、直觉和思考方法，来判断自己是否走在正确的道路上。

And if you were setting out to write the the book today as compared to ten years ago, I dare to say, I think you might even be better at it today because you've been at the process for the last ten years, and you've developed your own filters and spidey sense and ways and methods to think about, am I am I on the right track or not?

当巴菲特和伯克希尔在2022年初大手笔收购时，我认为他们收购了马克尔公司的一笔股份，投资额超过6亿美元。

When Buffett and Berkshire made a big acquisition earlier in 2022, I think, and bought a a stake in Markel, I think I'm right in saying they invested a little over over $600,000,000.

这无疑是对你和作为CEO的你投下了强有力的信任票。

So a pretty big vote of confidence in Markel and you as the you CEO.

自从1990年持有伯克希尔以来，又曾与沃伦一起担任《华盛顿邮报》公司董事，这对你意味着什么？

What did that mean to you knowing having having owned Berkshire since 1990, having served on the as a director on the board of the Washington Post Company alongside Warren?

我的意思是，从某种意义上说，这就像你非常钦佩的人给予你的祝福——他们认可你作为查理所谈论的无缝、应得的相互信任网络中的一个节点。

I mean, there is a there is a sense in which it's a sort of blessing from the the people you greatly admire, them recognizing you as a as a node in the neural network in in the web of in the web of seamless deserved mutual trust that Charlie talks about.

这对你来说意味着什么？

What did that mean for you?

正如查理·芒格在听完这番铺垫后可能会说的：我没什么要补充的。

Well, as as Charlie Munger might say after that setup, I have nothing to add.

你说得完全正确。

You're exactly right.

那真是美好的一天。

It was it was a great day.

我是和所有人一样，通过同样的方式得知这件事的。

I found out about it in the same way that everybody else did.

我是在他们提交13F文件时得知的。

I the filing of their 13 f.

所以我是通过正常的公开渠道得知的，但当我看到那份13F文件时，那是我人生中非常肯定、鼓舞人心、快乐的一天。

So it's just through normal public channels, but it's it's a very affirming, uplifting, happy day in my life when I saw that 13 f.

你能想象自己有朝一日会去伯克希尔吗？我知道这个问题有点不公平，但你能想象自己最终去伯克希尔吗？

Could you see yourself ever I know it's an unfair question, but could you see yourself ever ending up at at Berkshire?

我的工作就是尽我所能。

My job is to do the best I can.

马克尔是个绝佳的地方。

Markell is a spectacular place.

我得到了世界上所有的机会，如果我们在这里持续积累，我认为每个人都会感到开心。

I've been given every opportunity in the world, and if we if we keep compounding things here, I think everybody's gonna be happy.

伯克希尔有一支出色的团队。

Berkshire has a great team.

我的意思是，他们那里已经聚集了非常优秀的人才。

I mean, they have they have great people in place there.

他们非常关注自己的遗产、生存方式以及做事的方法。

They're they're very concerned with their own legacy and survival and way of doing things.

而且，由于这是我们最大的持仓，我支持他们。

And, I'm rooting for them since that's our largest holding.

所以我认为我们俩都会没事的。

So I think we'll we'll both we'll both be okay.

汤姆，我觉得我可以跟你打个赌，赌一盒甜甜圈，未来十年内，马克尔一定会被伯克希尔收购。

I feel, Tom, like I wanna bet you a a box of doughnuts that at some point in the next ten years, you know, Markel is gonna end up acquired by Berkshire.

你最终会成为我们大家庭的一员。

You're gonna end up being part of the family.

你不需要对此发表评论，但如果我赢了，我希望得到一个果酱甜甜圈。

And you don't need to comment on this, but if but I want a a jelly doughnut if that's if I win.

不如我因为别的原因请你吃甜甜圈？

How about I buy you doughnuts for some different reason?

好吧。

Okay.

我觉得你根本不需要请我吃甜甜圈。

I think you shouldn't buy me doughnuts at all.

那我就买给你，然后我自己吃掉。

Then I'll eat I'll buy you them, and I will eat them.

我妻子会付钱让你别给我买甜甜圈。

My my wife will pay you not to buy me donuts.

说到妻子，当我回顾你的人生时，有一件事特别突出：你成功地拥有了家庭生活，这一点是绝大多数极其成功的基金经理难以做到的。

Talking of wives, one one of the things that really stands out when I look at your life, it it is that you've managed to a degree that very few ultra successful money managers have managed to have a successful family life.

你有三个已经成年的孩子，我知道你和他们关系亲密，深爱并重视他们，你曾经告诉我，他们是你三个正常而令人愉快的成年子女。

You have three, grown up kids that I I know you're close to and and love and regard as as, I think you once described them to me as three normal, enjoyable adult children.

对。

Right.

而且你和一位非常善良的人长期幸福地结婚了。

And you've been happily married for a long time to a very decent person.

我经常在被采访时被问到：你遇到过多少真正快乐、生活幸福的杰出投资者？

And I often find when I'm when I'm being interviewed by people, they're asking me, well, have you met many of these really successful investors who actually are happy and who have good lives?

而你正是我常会提到的少数几个人之一。

And you're on the shortlist of people that I tend to cite.

我很好奇，你能否谈谈这一点，谈谈你是如何在应对工作强度和各种要求的同时，仍然维持与家人和朋友的良好关系的。

And I I wondered if you could talk a little bit about that, about how you've managed to balance the intensity of your work and the demands on you with actually still managing to have successful relationships with your family and friends.

我认为这是一个重要且在很多方面都很复杂的话题。

I think that's an important and and complicated topic in a lot of ways.

关于这个话题，我有好多话可以说。

There's a lot of ways I could go on that.

我经常在与同行投资者交谈时提到的一个概念是：优化某事与使某事令人满意之间的区别。

One thing that I often find myself in conversation with fellow investors on is the idea of optimizing something versus satisficing something.

在很多方面，我把自己归类为一个追求满意的人，而不是一个追求最优的人。

And I would put myself in the category of a satisficer as opposed to an optimizer in many ways.

我不想做出极端的表述，但在投资领域，很多人花费大量时间和精力去优化某件事。

And I don't wanna make an extreme statement there, but in the in the realm of an investment, a lot of people spend a lot of time and focus on optimizing something.

只要适当加以约束，这当然是件好事。

And then that's a great thing as long as it's properly constrained.

在这个世界上，有些事情本身就是不完美的。

And there's there's certain things in this world where it's an imperfect world.