RWH026：财富与健康 嘉宾：杰森·卡普

第一次就招对人。

Hire right the first time.

在 linkedin.com/studybill 免费发布职位，然后推广它以使用 LinkedIn Jobs 的新 AI 助手，更轻松快捷地找到顶尖候选人。

Post your job for free at linkedin.com/studybill, then promote it to use LinkedIn jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates.

免费发布职位请访问 linkedin.com/studybill。

That's linkedin.com/studybill to post your job for free.

条款和条件适用。

Terms and conditions apply.

好的。

Alright.

我想让你们想象一下，在夏季高峰期前往奥斯陆度过三天。

I want you guys to imagine spending three days in Oslo at the height of the summer.

你有漫长的白昼、绝佳的美食、漂浮在奥斯陆峡湾上的桑拿房，而且你所有的对话对象都是真正塑造未来的人。

You got long days of daylight, incredible food, floating saunas on the Oslo Fjord, and every conversation you have is with people who are actually shaping the future.

这就是奥斯陆自由论坛。

That's what the Oslo Freedom Forum is.

从2024年6月1日到2026年6月第三周，奥斯陆自由论坛将迎来它的第十八个年头，汇聚来自全球的活动家、技术专家、记者、投资者和建设者。

From June 1 through the third twenty twenty six, the Oslo Freedom Forum is entering its eighteenth year bringing together activists, technologists, journalists, investors, and builders from all over the world.

其中许多人正站在历史的最前沿。

Many of them operating on the front lines of history.

在这里，你可以亲耳听到人们如何使用比特币应对货币崩溃，如何利用人工智能揭露人权侵犯，以及在审查和威权压力下构建技术的真实故事。

This is where you hear firsthand stories from people using Bitcoin to survive currency collapse, using AI to expose human rights abuses, and building technology under censorship and authoritarian pressures.

这些不是抽象的概念。

These aren't abstract ideas.

这些是人们当下正在实际使用的工具。

These are tools real people are using right now.

你将与大约2000位非凡的人物同处一室——异见者、创始人、慈善家、政策制定者，这些是你不仅会聆听，还会共进晚餐的人。

You'll be in the room with about 2,000 extraordinary individuals, dissidents, founders, philanthropists, policymakers, the kind of people you don't just listen to but end up having dinner with.

在三天的时间里，你将体验震撼人心的主舞台演讲、关于自由科技与金融主权的实践工作坊、沉浸式艺术装置，以及在会议结束后仍持续进行的深入对话。

Over three days, you'll experience powerful main stage talks, hands on workshops on freedom tech and financial sovereignty, immersive art installations, and conversations that continue long after the sessions end.

这一切都将在六月的奥斯陆发生。

And it's all happening in Oslo in June.

如果这听起来像是你感兴趣的场合，那你可来对了，因为你可以亲自到场参加。

If this sounds like your kind of room, well, you're in luck because you can attend in person.

标准票和赞助者票已在oslofreedomforum.com开放购买，赞助者票提供深度参与机会、私人活动以及与演讲者的小范围交流时间。

Standard and patron passes are available at oslofreedomforum.com with patron passes offering deep access, private events, and small group time with the speakers.

奥斯陆自由论坛不仅仅是一场会议。

The Oslo Freedom Forum isn't just a conference.

这是一个理念与现实交汇的地方，也是由亲历者正在构建未来的地方。

It's a place where ideas meet reality and where the future is being built by people living it.

每一家企业都在问同一个问题。

Every business is asking the same question.

我们如何让人工智能为我们所用？

How do we make AI work for us?

可能性无穷无尽，而盲目猜测风险太高。

The possibilities are endless and guessing is too risky.

但袖手旁观绝非选择，因为有一件事几乎可以肯定：你的竞争对手已经在行动了。

But sitting on the sidelines is not an option because one thing is almost certain, your competitors are already making their move.

借助甲骨文的NetSuite，您今天就能让AI发挥作用。

With NetSuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work today.

NetSuite是超过43,000家企业信赖的头号AI云ERP系统。

NetSuite is the number one AI cloud ERP trusted by over 43,000 businesses.

它是一个统一的套件，将您的财务、库存、电商、人力资源和客户关系管理整合为单一数据来源。

It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into a single source of truth.

这种关联数据让您的AI更智能，不再只是猜测。

That connected data is what makes your AI smarter so it doesn't just guess.

现在，通过NetSuite AI连接器，您可以使用任何您选择的AI工具，连接到真实的业务数据，并提出您曾经想问的每一个问题，从关键客户到现金状况，再到库存趋势。

And now with NetSuite AI Connector, you can use the AI of your choice to connect to your actual business data and ask every question you ever had, from key customers to cash on hand to inventory trends.

无论您的公司年收入是数百万还是数亿，NetSuite都能帮助您保持领先。

Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you stay ahead of the pack.

现在，NetSuite免费提供商业指南，助您揭开AI的神秘面纱，访问netsuite.com/study获取。

Right now, NetSuite's free business guide, demystifying AI at netsuite.com/study.

该指南免费提供，访问netsuite.com/study即可获取。

The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/study.

netsuite.com/study.

Netsuite.com/study.

好的。

Alright.

回到节目。

Back to the show.

在某些方面，你会通过惩罚自己来获得进步。

In some ways, you'd learn to get ahead by punishing yourself.

所以你所获得的所有激励都来自于：如果我对自己的要求足够严苛和强硬，我就能克服自己的注意力问题、缺乏专注力、弱点和不完美。

So all of the reinforcement you'd got had been if I'm sufficiently mean and tough to myself, I can overcome my attentional difficulties, my lack of focus, my weakness, my imperfection.

然后你做了这一切之后，每个人都会为此称赞你。

And then you do all of that and then everyone congratulates you for it.

于是你就得到了对这种自我苛责、对自己残酷行为的全部强化。

Then so you get all of this reinforcement of this habit of beating the hell out of yourself, being brutal to yourself.

一旦这种模式奏效了，就很难再打破它，去说：其实，这里有一种更好、更可持续的方法，那就是拥有一定程度的自我同情、喜悦与温柔。

And once that's worked, it's very hard to dismantle that and to say, actually, no, there's a better and more sustainable method here, which is actually to have some degree of self compassion and joy and softness.

这真的很难改掉，对吧？

It's a very, very hard thing to unlearn, right?

对我来说太残酷了。

It was brutal for me.

我觉得在上大学之前，我对自己有着深深的憎恨，因此我竭尽全力不让自己回到那个状态。

And I think I had such self hatred for who I was prior to college that I did everything I could to not allow that kid to come back.

所以我对自己非常严苛，完全没有自我同情。

So I was brutal to myself and I had zero self compassion.

我现在还研究了很多所谓的躯体化障碍，也就是‘心身’这个词的来源——你的某些心理状态如何在身体上表现出来。

I also think now that I've been studying a lot of what they call somatic disorders, which is where the term psychosomatic comes from is how certain things in your mind can manifest physically in your body.

这有非常强有力的科学证据。

And there is very strong scientific evidence.

这可不是什么玄乎的东西，你的身体确实会反映出你大脑中的许多东西。

It's not like woo woo, that your body manifests a lot of what is in your brain.

如果你过着与你的价值观或内心真正渴望的生活严重不符的生活，你就会通过身体疾病生病。

And that if you are living a life that is deeply inconsistent with your values or what your inner soul wants, you will get sick through physical sickness.

我认为我很多身体上的不适都是内心创伤和挣扎的体现。

I think a lot of my physical ailments were manifestations of the inner trauma and fight that I was having.

后来我决定采取行动，结果证明这很有效——我其实还患有多种自身免疫性疾病，这些病本质上是由于长期的巨大压力引发的表观遗传变化。

And what I did was I decided, which also worked, it turns out that I also had a variety of autoimmune diseases that were effectively epigenetically triggered from all of this immense amount of stress.

如果你留意过，已经有不少电影涉及了这个主题。

And if you saw, there have been several movies that touch on this.

如果你看过瑞安·雷诺兹主演的《死侍》，那是一部很棒的电影。

If you ever saw the movie Deadpool with Ryan Reynolds, it's a fabulous movie.

这是一部很有趣的漫威电影。

It's a fun Marvel movie.

但基本上，瑞安·雷诺兹饰演的角色身患癌症，是个普通人。

But basically, Ryan Reynolds is dying of cancer and he's a normal person.

有人找到他，承诺可以阻止他的癌症，却没有告诉他具体是怎么做到的。

And they come to him with this sort of promise that they could basically stop the cancer, but they didn't explain to him how.

他们通过施加巨大的压力，成功地在表观遗传层面将他变成了一个变种人。

And they basically, through massive amounts of stress, were able to kind of epigenetically turn him into a mutant.

但这也带来了许多负面影响。

But it comes with a lot of downside.

完全改变了他外貌，而且不是好的那种。

Totally changes how he looks in a not a good way.

在某种程度上，我对自己所做的就是，在几年的时间里，通过给自己施加巨大的压力和紧张，引发了这些疾病。

In some ways, what I did to myself was I brought out all these diseases over the course of a couple years through the intense amount of stress and pressure I put on myself.

这种情况因我天生具有某些自身免疫遗传倾向而加剧，我所吃的食物让我病得更重。

And it was exacerbated because I have some natural autoimmune genetic things where the foods that I was eating made me a lot sicker.

结果发现我基本上是乳糜泻患者，所以我不能吃麸质。

It turns out I'm basically celiac, so I can't really eat gluten.

我每天吃八次含麸质的食物。

I was eating gluten eight times a day.

我吃了大量的加工食品。

I was eating a lot of processed food.

我每晚都喝酒。

I was drinking alcohol at night.

我早上喝咖啡，不睡觉，也不锻炼。

I was drinking caffeine in the morning, wasn't sleeping, wasn't exercising.

结果发现，我所有的疾病都与我的饮食方式和生活方式有关。

All of my diseases, it turns out, were linked to the way I was eating and the way I was living.

于是我开始了几乎长达一年的旅程，努力改善生活方式，以治愈我的失明。

And I went on this almost year long journey of trying to clean up my lifestyle to cure my blindness.

这招有效了，我的视力恢复了，所有不适——脱发、皮疹——全都消失了。

And it worked and my vision came back and all of my ailments, my hair loss, my rashes all stopped.

但我必须放弃生活中那些真正给我带来快乐的事物。

But I had to do it by giving up all these things in my life that actually brought me pleasure.

作为一个23岁的单身人士，在1999年的纽约戒掉酒精，非常困难。

Gave up alcohol as a 23 year old single person in New York, was very difficult in 1999.

戒掉咖啡因，我超爱咖啡；戒掉加工食品、精制糖、麸质和乳制品。

Up caffeine, I loved coffee, giving up processed food, giving up refined sugar, giving up gluten, giving up dairy.

我尝试了各种方法来治愈自己。

I tried all these different things to try to cure myself.

很多方法都有效，但并没有触及我认为困扰我的根本原因。

A lot of them worked, but they didn't get to the full root cause of I think what was troubling me.

因此，在某种程度上，虽然这很了不起，我也治好了自己，但这只是部分治愈。

And so in some ways, while that was amazing and I cured myself, it was a partial cure.

它没有解决我们之前谈到的、关于我为何如此 relentless 追求的内心恶魔。

It didn't address the demons that we talked about in terms of why I was so relentlessly driven.

而这一点，我后来在人生中不得不多次面对。

And that was something I had to address many times later in my life.

我们会在节目后面再谈到这一点，因为我认为你所经历的心理健康历程至关重要。

We'll get to that later in the episode, because I think it's really critical, the mental health journey that you've been on.

我很欣赏你在我们的对话中一直如此坦诚地谈论这个话题。

And I love the fact that you've always been so candid our conversations about it.

这是一件了不起的事，对其他人也极具帮助。

It's an amazing thing and incredibly helpful for other people.

但我们现在先从你发现的这些疾病成因开始，谈谈你是如何通过改变生活方式来掌控自己身体健康的。

But let's start for now with what you've figured out about what was causing these diseases and how by changing your lifestyle, you could take control of your own physical life.

在某种程度上，你所讨论的内容正是我们当前所见的生活方式医学和功能医学这一更广泛运动的核心，人们开始意识到生活方式选择的巨大影响力。

In some ways, the things that you were discussing really are at the heart of this broader movement that we're seeing in lifestyle medicine and functional medicine, where people are starting to understand the enormous power of lifestyle choices.

那么，你能让我们了解一下，你当时学到的如何改变自己的生活方式，实际上在多大程度上适用于我们所有人，尽管我们在处理食物、对事物的反应以及基因方面存在个体差异吗？

So can you give us a sense of how what you were learning then about how to change your own lifestyle is actually really broadly applicable to pretty much all of us, despite our idiosyncrasies in how we process foods and react to things and what our

基因现在可能是什么。

genetics now may be.

幸运的是，现在有这么多资源、书籍，我可以为你听众推荐一大堆。

Thankfully there's so many resources and books and I can give you a bunch for your listeners.

那时候可没这么多。

Back then there weren't many.

那时候，有一种正在兴起的科学，却被视为近乎巫术，那就是功能医学或整合医学。

Back then there was a burgeoning science that was considered almost voodoo called functional or integrative medicine.

功能医学的理念是，现代西方医学——有些人称之为医疗保健，但其实它更像疾病管理——大多数西方医学都是如此：人们带着疾病前来，我们设法缓解这些疾病的症状，但未必能触及根本原因。

And the idea behind functional medicine is that modern Western medicine, which some people call it healthcare, but it's really disease care is what most Western medicine is, which is people come in with sicknesses and we figure out ways to address the symptoms of those sicknesses, but not necessarily the root cause.

例如，我当初患有脱发、湿疹和牛皮癣，还有一种退行性眼病。

So for example, I came in with alopecia, I came in with eczema and psoriasis, I came in with a degenerative eye disease.

他们说：好吧，这是治疗你湿疹和牛皮癣的药膏。

They're like, okay, here's a cream for your eczema and psoriasis.

这是能阻止你脱发的药片。

Here's a pill that will stop your hair from falling out.

这是一种可能作为抗氧化剂、帮助减缓你眼睛退化的维生素。

Here is a vitamin that might be an antioxidant to help your eyes from degenerating further.

而医生们都认为这些是彼此独立的问题。

And doctors all thought they were separate.

但当时有一些医生是先驱者，比如魏尔医生。

Whereas there were doctors who were pioneers at the time, like Doctor.

安德鲁·韦尔和马克·海曼，他们都写过许多关于整合医学或功能医学的书籍。

Andrew Weil and Mark Hyman, who've both written many books on integrative or functional medicine.

他们的方法是治疗疾病的根源，而不是症状。

And their approach is treat the root cause of disease, not the symptoms.

他们说：把加工食品从你的饮食中剔除，确保每晚至少睡七小时，避免食用会导致全身性炎症的超加工垃圾食品。

And they're like, get processed food out of your diet, make sure you sleep at least seven hours a night, make sure you're not eating super processed junk food that's causing systemic inflammation.

所以我一直在大量阅读关于炎症、人类学、进化以及人体运作的生物学方面的内容。

And so I had been doing a lot of reading on inflammation, on anthropology and evolution and biological aspects of how the body works.

当时已经有足够的科学证据表明，我们人类的大多数问题都源于单一原因，而不是许多小问题的叠加。

And there was enough science then that most of our problems as humans are related to single causes of things as opposed to lots of little things.

因此，我的方法是：尽量降低我身体的炎症水平。

And so my approach was, I'm going to basically try to reduce my body inflammation.

但即便到了今天，随着科学的进步，以及在这些播客中，人们都在谈论一些前沿的、能让你多活五到十年的疯狂技术。

And it turns out that even today with the advances in science that we have, and on all these podcasts, people are talking about crazy cutting edge things that extend your age by five or ten years.

你会听到像雷帕霉素、二甲双胍这样的分子，现在大家又都在谈论司美格鲁肽。

You hear about these molecules like rapamycin and metformin, and they're all talking about Ozempic now.

但你其实只需要做到四个简单的事情，就能达到长寿健康的90%效果，而这些方法我们一百年前就已经知道了：那就是不吃加工食品，这些内容我们都可以深入探讨——你摄入体内的东西，食物是你能做的最重要的事，这还包括补充剂。

But you can get 90% of the way there in terms of living well to the age of 100 with four simple things that we've known about for one hundred years, which is unprocessed food, and we could go in-depth in any of these, which is basically what you put in your body, food is the most important thing you can do, but that also includes supplements.

你涂抹在身体上的东西，这也包括污染、化学物质、霉菌、乳液、洗发水。

What you put on your body, so that also includes pollution, chemicals, molds, lotions, shampoos.

如今大多数产品中都含有大量有毒物质，你每天不停地涂抹在皮肤上，而皮肤是你最大的器官，这些毒素会直接渗入你的血液，还有睡眠和压力水平。

There's so much toxic crap in most products today that you're constantly slathering on your skin, which is your largest organ and seeps right into your bloodstream, sleep and stress levels.

然后你可以深入研究压力水平，比如笑声、社群和为他人服务。

And then you can dig into stress levels in terms of things like laughter, community, service to others.

当你研究蓝色地带时，对于一些可能不了解的听众来说，蓝色地带是指全球范围内被人类学家研究过的一组特定城镇，这些地方的百岁老人数量比其他任何群体高出多个标准差。

And when you study blue zones, and these blue zones for some of your listeners who may not know them, blue zones are basically a select group of towns and cities in the world that have been studied by anthropologists, where they have multiple standard deviations more of centenarians, people who live to 100 than any other cohort.

他们研究了这些群体，发现它们遍布全球。

And they've studied these groups and they're all over the world.

大多数位于欧洲，少数在亚洲。

Most of them are in Europe, a few in Asia.

我们美国也有一个，就是基督复临安息日会。

We have one here in The US, which are the latter day Adventists.

但其中有两个在撒丁岛，一个在希腊，两个在日本。

But there's a couple in Sardinia is one, and there's one in Greece, and there's two in Japan.

它们都有一个共同点，那就是具备这些因素。

And they all have this common thread of having those variables.

大多数人一听说要为了长寿而进行各种生物黑客行为，就会感到紧张。

And most people get nervous that they have to do all this biohacking to live longer.

讽刺的是，所有这些生物黑客技术实际上都只是边缘因素。

And ironically, all that biohacking stuff is actually on the margin.

如果你没有吃得真正健康、干净——我们可以深入探讨这具体意味着什么，而且你每晚没有睡足七到八个小时，而我曾是睡眠专家，世界上只有百万分之一的人患有某种罕见疾病，能靠每晚六小时或更少的睡眠生存。

If you're not eating really well and clean, and we can go into what that means, and you're not sleeping seven, eight hours a night, and I was a sleep expert, and it is like one one hundredth of a percent of the population that has a weird disorder where they can survive on six hours or less of sleep a night.

不是百分之十的人口，而是百万分之一。

It's not like ten percent of the population, it's like one one thousandth of a percent.

我们每个人都需要每晚七到八小时的优质睡眠。

We all need seven to eight hours of sleep a night, every night, good sleep.

此外，还有一些显而易见的、明显损害生命的行为，我们知道这些做法很愚蠢，但人们仍然在做，比如吸烟、喝苏打水。

And then there's a bunch of obvious things that are automatic life detractors that we know are dumb to do, but people still do them like smoking cigarettes, drinking soda.

如果你有这些行为，会直接缩短你五到十五年的寿命。

Those will shave off five to fifteen years of your life automatically if you do those activities.

因此，对我而言，我的很多探索就是去理解这些人群的生活方式究竟是怎样的。

And so for me, a lot of my journey was just understanding what it is about these populations.

顺便说一句，不只是蓝区，世界上还有许多原住民族群至今仍以狩猎采集的方式生活，这种生活方式已延续了一千多年。

By the way, not just the blue zones, but also there's a number of indigenous peoples that still exist as hunter gatherers all over the world that have lived this way for a thousand plus years.

它们遍布每个大陆，从北极到丛林，到非洲，到美国，都具有相同的特征。

And they have them in every continent, from Arctic to the jungle, to Africa, to US, and they all have the same attributes.

有趣的是，那些不使用任何现代科技的原住民群体，没有过敏、自闭症或慢性疾病，没有糖尿病、心脏病、肥胖症，完全没有我们现代的这些疾病。

What's interesting about the indigenous peoples who don't live with any modern technology, they have no allergies, they have no autism, they have no chronic diseases, so no diabetes, no heart disease, no obesity, they have none of our modern diseases.

许多长者都能活到一百岁。

Many of the elders live to 100.

令人惊讶的是，北极地区的一些人完全不吃水果和蔬菜。

And what's amazing is that there's ones in the Arctic that have absolutely no fruit and vegetables.

他们只吃鲸脂和肉类。

Eat literally whale blubber and meat.

有一些部落只以水果、蔬菜和种子为食。

There's tribes that live only off of fruits and vegetables and seeds.

非洲的一些部落会摄入惊人的大量牛血和肉类。

There's tribes in Africa that consume a shocking amount of cow blood and meat.

所以你有素食者，有肉食者，还有各种不同类型的人。

So you have vegans, you have carnivores, you have all these different types.

他们共同的一点是，都尽可能接近自然饮食，加工最少。

What's consistent about all of them is that they all eat as close to the earth as possible with the minimal amount of processing as possible.

他们都重视社区，尊重长者。

They all prize community, they all prize their elders.

因此，他们的长者在社会中扮演着重要角色。

So their elders have a significant function in their society.

他们都每天保持大量活动，并且充分睡眠。

They all get a lot of movement every day and they all sleep.

这就是共同的线索。

That's the common thread.

因此，有许多事情是毫无争议、不可辩驳的。

And so there's so much that is not controversial and not disputable.

在当今现代社会，一个非常不便的事实是：食物、环境中的毒素以及不健康的生活方式、久坐不动、对手机和电脑的持续成瘾、缺乏社交联系、孤立无援。

In today's modern society, it's a very inconvenient truth that food and toxins in our environment and toxic lifestyle, sedentary behaviour, constant addictions to the phones and the computers, etcetera, no social connection, isolation.

这是一个非常不便的事实：正是这些因素在夺走我们的生命，但这既无可争议，也不存分歧。

It's a very inconvenient truth that this actually is what's killing us, but it's not even disputable and it's not controversial.

我在这个领域做了大量报道，因为我自己并不是健身的典范。

I've done a surprising amount of reporting in this area because I'm not exactly a paragon of fitness.

就像投资一样，正如查理·芒格所说，道理很简单，但做起来不容易。

As with investing, as Charlie Munger says, it's simple, not easy.

关于饮食和健康，很多事都是道理简单但执行困难，比如控制热量、吃得更好、不吃精制糖。

With diet and health and stuff, many of these things are simple, not easy, controlling calories or eating better or not eating refined sugar.

这些事对我来说挺难的，但至少我理解其中的原则。

Lot of it's kind of hard for me, but at least I understand the principles.

但让我印象深刻的是，当我采访像迪恩·奥尼什这样的人时，他因在逆转心脏病和糖尿病等方面的工作而闻名，或者当我采访瓦尔托隆戈时，他写了一本关于长寿饮食的书，研究了意大利等地的长寿区域——那里正是他的家乡，许多人活到高龄。

But what struck me was when I interviewed people like Dean Ornish, who was famous for his work in reversing heart disease and diabetes and the like, or when I interviewed Valtolongo, who wrote this book on the longevity diet, where he looks at a lot of those zones in places like Italy, where he's from, where many people live to a very ripe old age.

让我非常震惊的是，这些地方之间存在着如此多的相似之处和重叠之处。

It was very striking to me the parallels, the overlaps.

我们常常误以为，不，不，这里面争议太多，每个人看法都不同，谁又知道呢？

We're often left thinking, no, no, that there's so much controversy and everyone differs and everyone Who knows?

没人知道到底该怎么做才是对的。

Nobody knows what the right thing is to do.

但真正让我感到震惊的是，他们所说的内容之间竟然有如此多的重叠。

But actually what was really striking to me was just how much overlap there was in what they were saying.

尤其是当我读到迪恩·奥尼什和他妻子合著的《逆转》这本书时，我几乎感觉像是在读本·格雷厄姆的作品，仿佛突然间眼中的迷雾消散了，明白了糖尿病和心脏病等疾病背后的真正机制。

And I was particularly struck when I read this book by Dean Ornish called Undo It that he wrote with his wife that I almost felt like I was reading, you know, Ben Graham, like that it would be the equivalent of reading Ben Graham and suddenly the scales falling from your eyes and being like, oh, those are the mechanisms by which all these things like diabetes and heart disease are occurring.

让我感到着迷的是，他指出，无论是糖尿病、心脏病还是其他慢性病，你所采取的干预措施和杠杆作用几乎完全相同。

And what was fascinating to me was that he said that basically the same interventions, the same levers that you were pulling on had an effect on all of these chronic diseases, whether it was diabetes or heart disease or whatever.

他用八个字总结了这一切，如果我没记错的话，他说：回顾我四十五年的研究，就是吃得健康、多运动、多爱人、少压力。

And he summed it up in eight words, think, which if I can remember rightly, he said, basically when I look back on forty five years of my research, it's eat well, move more, love more, stress less.

这正体现了复杂之后的简单，对吧？

This was sort of an example of the simplicity that lies beyond complexity, right?

就像乔·格林布拉特将投资的复杂性简化为几个关键指标，说：看，评估一家企业，然后以远低于其价值的价格买入，仅此而已。

It's like when Joe Greenblatt reduces the complexity of investing to a couple of metrics and says, Look, value a business and buy it for much less than it's worth, and that's it.

当然，这些事情执行起来更难，但我认为这是一个非常有趣的洞见：在这八个字中，你明白了我得吃得健康。

I mean, obviously these things are harder to execute, but I thought that was a really fascinating insight that in those eight words you have this idea of, okay, so I got to eat well.

这到底意味着什么？

What does that mean?

所以我要吃得更干净，对吧？

Well, so I got to eat cleaner, right?

更接近自然，少吃加工食品，多吃天然食物，多运动。

Closer to the earth, less processed stuff, more natural stuff, move more.

好的。

Okay.

所以他们实际上对这个了解得比我多得多，但我的结论是，如果我每周运动150到200分钟，就能获得这些措施的大部分益处。

So they basically see, I mean, you know much more about this than I do, but it was like basically my conclusion was if I move one hundred and fifty to 200 a week, I'm gonna get a lot of the benefits of this stuff.

即使其中一些是高强度的，但至少我要动起来。

If some of it is intense, but at least if I move.

然后就是多爱他人。

And then it was like, love more.

社群真的很重要，比如拥有朋友和归属感，然后减少压力。

Community really matters, like having friends, community, and then stress less.

像呼吸技巧、冥想之类的方法。

Things like breathing techniques and meditation and the like.

这四个因素中并没有哪一个比其他的重要。

It wasn't like one of those four mattered more than the other.

他说它们都同样重要。

He said they all matter equally.

后来我问他，你知道的，我采访了马修，他叫什么来着？

And then I asked him afterwards, you know, I interviewed Matthew, what's he called?

就是写《我们为什么睡觉》那本书的马修·沃克。

The guy who read the book on why we sleep, Matthew Walker.

马修·沃克。

Matthew Walker.

于是我问奥尼什，那睡眠呢？

And so I was asking Ornish, what about sleep?

他回答说，是的，是的。

And he was like, yeah, yeah.

有时候他们会额外增加一个支柱，变成三个或四个支柱，但总体上他们都基本认同。

And so sometimes they'll sort of add an extra pillar to their three pillars or their four pillars, but they all basically agree.

就像睡眠、冥想、锻炼、社交、爱、吃得更健康、减少加工食品。

It's like sleep, meditation, exercise, community, love, cleaner eating, less processed stuff.

抱歉说了这么一大段，但让我印象深刻的是，这些观点之间有如此多的重叠、相似之处，实际上几乎没有争议，结论也很一致。

Sorry for that long winded view, but it's striking to me the overlap, the parallels, actually the lack of controversy and certain findings.

我向很多人解释过这一点，这也是我和别人共同创立的两家健康与养生公司都带有‘人类’这个词的原因。

The way I've explained it to a lot of people, and it's the reason why both of the health and wellness businesses that I co founded have the word human in them.

让每个人最容易记住这一点的方式就是，我们的生活方式要与人类进化的方式保持一致。

And the easiest way for everyone to remember all this is we just have to live consistent with the way in which we evolved.

因为如果你想想人类是如何进化的，那可以追溯到两百万年前。

Because if you think about how we've evolved as humans, it goes back two million years.

具体时间我不确定，但至少有两百万年。

Don't know exactly, but it's at least two million years.

在那99.999%的时间里，我们基本上过着相同的生活方式。

For 99.999% of that, we live basically the same kind of way.

对吧？

Right?

但在两百万年的宏大背景下，直到三百年前，人类的进步却微乎其微。

And it's rather remarkable how little progress there was until three hundred years ago in the grand scheme of two million years.

我们曾是游牧民族，是狩猎采集者，生活在星空之下，靠狩猎和采集获取食物，生活在部落和社群中。

We were nomadic, we were hunter gatherers, we lived under the stars, we hunted and gathered for our food, we lived in tribes and communities.

当你想到在这段漫长岁月里，我们所演化出的适应性行为和生物进化程度时，真是令人震惊。

And when you think about the amount of evolution and the amount of adaptive behaviours that we've evolved over that period of time, it's staggering.

而我们却在最近这一百年里，甚至更短的时间里，表现出如此傲慢。

And then the hubris of us thinking in the last really, really hundred years, right?

顺便说一句，所有数据都反映了这一点——尤其是过去四十年，这简直令人不寒而栗：我们竟傲慢地认为，那两百万年的演化根本无足轻重。

And this is reflected in all the data, by the way, it's really reflected in the last forty years, which is unbelievably scary, that the hubris of thinking like, Oh yeah, that last two million years, that doesn't mean anything.

我们自以为更懂，我们比过去更聪明。

Know better, we know better than that.

于是我们试图违背所有我们演化出的生存方式。

Let's try to go against everything that we evolved to do.

我们从未有过加工食品，从未有过久坐不动的生活，更没有过电子设备，也从未被孤立过，因为一旦被孤立，我们就会死去。

We never had processed foods, we never had sedentary behaviour, we certainly didn't have devices, we never were isolated because if we were isolated, we would die.

我们作为社会性物种进化而来。

We've evolved as social species.

过去四十年中的一些数据令人震惊。

And just some of the stats in the last forty years are so staggering.

我告诉人们，我们本应是最具技术先进性的。

And I tell people this, that we are supposed to be the most technologically advanced.

我们本应比以往任何时候都更了解一切。

We're supposed to know more than we ever have.

我们现在锻炼得比以往任何时候都多。

We exercise more than we ever have right now.

但我们却是人类历史上最不健康的一代。

And we're the sickest we've ever been in human history.

我们是人类有记录的历史中，第一代预期寿命短于上一代的人。

We are the first generation in recorded human history that is predicted to live a shorter lifespan than the previous.

1990年时，没有任何一个州的肥胖人口比例超过百分之二十，一个都没有。

In 1990, there were zero states where more than twenty percent of the population was obese, zero.

那只是三十年前的事了。

That's only thirty years ago.

如今，没有一个州的肥胖率低于百分之二十，一个都没有。

Today, there are zero states that are under twenty, zero.

美国有42%的人口肥胖，93%的美国人代谢不健康，93%。

42% of the population in The US is obese, ninety three percent of The US is metabolically unhealthy, ninety three percent.

有40%符合服役条件的人因慢性疾病无法入伍。

Forty percent of eligible people for the military cannot go into the draft because of chronic disease.

这是一场国家安全危机。

It's a national security threat.

所有这一切都发生在过去的四十年里。

All of this happened in the last forty years.

事实上，如果你给人看视频或电影，比如70年代的电影，每个人都很瘦。

In fact, if you show people videos or movies, if you ever watch movies from the 70s, everyone's thin.

这很奇怪。

It's weird.

你只要看看德尼罗主演的《出租车司机》就行了。

You just watch Taxi Driver with De Niro.

顺便说一下，他们当时在抽烟，吃披萨。

And by the way, they're smoking, they're eating pizza.

他们也不是特别健康。

It's not like they were that healthy.

所以我认为，当人们需要记住时，他们到底该做什么？

And so I think when people need to remember, what are you supposed to do?

我认为关键是理解我们作为狩猎采集者是如何演化的，我的生活方式在进化上是否一致？

I think understanding how did we evolve this hunter gatherers and is what I'm doing evolutionarily consistent or not consistent?

我们的基因并不适应这些全新的生活方式。

And we don't have the DNA to deal with all these new adaptations.

事实上，许多科学家认为主要元凶是他们所说的‘富足’。

In fact, the primary culprit to a lot of scientists is what they call abundance.

不是你所指的那种积极意义上的富足，而是我们进化出来适应的是匮乏，而非富足，这就是为什么间歇性禁食有效，我们可以深入探讨其科学原理。

Not in the abundance that you speak of in a good way, but we've evolved to deal with the opposite of abundance, which is why intermittent fasting works and we can go into the science of why that works.

但有时候我们会连续好几天不吃东西。

But we would go days sometimes without food.

而现在，我们周围到处都是我们所需的一切。

And now we have everything we need all around us.

所以我们实际上并没有以一种有益的方式给身体施加压力，这种压力被称为毒物兴奋效应。

So we're not actually stressing our bodies in a good way, which is called hormesis.

我们的身体实际上正在自我崩溃，自身免疫疾病就是这样产生的，因为我们的身体开始向内攻击，这是我们移除了身体赖以生存的所有刺激所导致的。

And our bodies are effectively imploding on themselves, it's where autoimmune disease comes from because our bodies are turning inward because we're removing all of the stimuli that our bodies need to actually thrive.

所以让我们给人们提供一些非常实用的资源，如果他们真的想更深入地了解这些内容的话。

So let's give people a couple of very practical resources to turn to if they actually wanna look into this stuff more.

我绝对推荐迪恩·奥尼什的《逆转它》。

I would definitely recommend Undo It by Dean Ornish.

我认为瓦尔特·隆戈的《长寿饮食》这本书不错。

I think Valtter Longo's book, The Longevity Diet is good.

关于间歇性禁食，有很多非常优秀的研究。

There's a lot of really good research on intermittent fasting.

马特森在《新英格兰医学杂志》上发表了一篇非常优秀的论文，我曾经就间歇性禁食采访过他。

Was a very good paper by Mattson in the New England Journal of Medicine, who's someone I interviewed about intermittent fasting.

间歇性禁食显然有多种不同的方案。

And there are clearly a lot of different protocols for intermittent fasting.

即使他是这方面的顶尖专家之一，似乎也并不完全确定。

And even he is one of the greatest experts in it, doesn't seem to know exactly.

他对应该禁食多少小时之类的问题，也没有明确的立场或略有不同意见。

He hadn't felt along or slightly disagree how many hours should you stay fasted or whatever.

这其中存在多样性。

There's variety.

但如果你要推荐最值得信赖的研究者、最值得信赖的书籍，我知道你已经在塔夫茨大学营养学院任职二十年了，你会推荐谁？谁的观点能让你的观众获得科学严谨、逻辑清晰、理性且经过充分研究的关于如何采纳这些健康实践的见解？

But if you were to point people towards the researchers you trust most, the books you trust most, and I know you're on the board of the Tufts School of Nutrition and have started this for twenty years, Who would you turn to who you would trust, who if you want our audience have a very science based, very logical, rational, well researched view of how to adopt these good practices?

你有什么建议？

What would you suggest?

实际上这个月刚出版了两本新书，作者都是我的朋友，我认为他们是这个领域最顶尖的人才。

Two new books just came out actually this month, both by friends of mine who I consider the best in this space.

我首先推荐的是《长寿》一书，作者是彼得·阿蒂亚医生。

The first I would recommend would be Outlive by Doctor.

彼得·阿蒂亚。

Peter Attia.

彼得是长寿领域最顶尖的专家之一。

Peter's one of the foremost experts on longevity.

这本书是他毕生研究的集大成之作，对于你们这些科学导向的听众来说，内容非常严谨，但同时也扎根于真实的实践现实。

This book is a dense opus of his life's work, much more, I'd say for your scientific oriented listeners, very scientific, but grounded in real practical reality.

第二本书出自我在这个领域最欣赏的人之一，名为《永远年轻》，作者是马克·海曼医生。

The second book by one of my favorite people in the space is called Young Forever by Doctor.

马克·海曼是著名的功能性医学先驱之一。

Mark Hyman, who's the famous one of the original functional medicine doctors.

这本书提供了更多实用、易于采纳和学习的见解。

And that has much more, I'd say, practical, easy to kind of adopt learnings.

但这两本书都非常出色，分别是《长寿》和《永远年轻》。

But both books are fabulous, Outlive and Young Forever.

彼得·奥蒂亚的播客很不错，我订阅了，但一直没时间听，尽管

Peter Ottia has a good podcast, which I subscribe to, but never get around to listening to, even though

虽然贵，但非常棒。

it's expensive, but it's very good.

他们都拥有很棒的播客。

They all have great podcasts.

胡伯曼的播客非常出色。

Huberman has a great podcast.

是的，超棒的播客。

Yeah, amazing podcast.

海曼也有，但如今信息太多了，我喜欢为人们提炼出简单实用的建议。

Hyman does, and there's too much information today, but I like to come up with very simple practical things for people to remember.

所以你必须记住的一件事是，你的身体进化得适应了我所说的‘混乱’状态。

So one of the things that you have to remember is your body has evolved to thrive on what I call confusion.

所以你要尽可能经常地让你的身体感到‘混乱’。

So you want to confuse your body as often as you can.

我说的混乱，指的是随机的压力源，对吧？

And by confusion, I mean random stressors, right?

这也回到了纳西姆·塔勒布的反脆弱概念，对吧？

And this also goes back to Nassim Taleb's concept of antifragile, right?

你的身体在每天以相同方式接收相同输入时，表现会变差。

Which is your body does poorly when it has the same inputs every day the same way.

所以有些日子你要禁食，有些日子你要大吃大喝，有些日子你要锻炼三小时，其他日子则完全休息。

So some days you want to fast, some days you want to feast, some days you want to exercise three hours, other days you want to take it off.

有些日子你要去桑拿，有些日子你要冲冷水澡，有些日子则两者都做。

Some days you want a sauna, some days you want a cold shower, some days you want to do both.

但正是这种混乱让你的身体得以茁壮成长，因为我们的身体就是这样进化而来的。

But it's the confusion that lets your body thrive, because that's how we evolved.

我们从未在同质化和一致性中进化过。

We never evolved with homogeneity and consistency ever.

这种状态只是在过去一百年里，我们才学会如何做到的。

That's only something in the last hundred years that we figured out how to do.

顺便说一下，这种方法在增肌上也适用。

And by the way, this works with muscle building too.

他们称之为肌肉混淆。

They call it muscle confusion.

所以当你想真正获得良好增益时，你需要进行非常不同的活动，这就是为什么他们建议你培养真正强大且实用的力量。

So people, when you want to really put on good gains, you want to do activities that are very different, which is why they advocate for you to get real robust usable strength.

马拉松跑者。

Marathon runner.

你不应该只是每天在跑步机上直线跑一小时。

You should not be someone that just runs linearly on a treadmill for an hour a day.

你应该做综合训练，然后跑跑步机，接着打网球，再打匹克球，然后做俯卧撑。

You should do CrossFit, then you should do treadmill, then you should do tennis, then you should do pickleball, then you should do pushups.

在饮食上多样化，你的身体会更健康；在锻炼上多样化，你的身体也会更出色。

You thrive as a human being with your diet when you mix it up, with your exercise when you mix it up.

所以我认为，混淆是最简单的方法，能让人们记住并保持实践性。

And so I just think confusion is the easiest thing for people to remember to keep it practical.

威廉，我认为这里还有一个非常有趣的原理，那就是我们显然在某种程度上需要压力源，对吧？

William I think there's also another really interesting principle at play here, which is that we obviously need stressors in some way for our system, right?

所以，无论你是举重、备考还是为未来储蓄，都有一种延迟满足、愿意现在承受痛苦以换取未来收益的特质。

So whether you're doing weightlifting or you're studying for an exam or you're saving for the future, there's something about the deferral of gratification about the willingness to take pain now for gain later.

这似乎是一种贯穿生活方方面面的基本原则，无论是努力工作、储蓄投资，还是间歇性禁食。

That's a kind of fundamental principle that seems to run through everything in life, whether it's working hard, whether it's saving and investing, whether it's intermittent fasting.

你不能在想要的瞬间就得到一切。

You can't just give yourself everything in the instant that you want it.

我的书第六章就写过很多关于尼克和扎克这样的例子，他们本质上都是在延迟满足。

I mean, I wrote about this a lot in chapter six of my book about people like Nick and Zach and how they basically, they were deferring gratification.

作为投资者，他们的秘诀就在于能够延迟满足。

Secret as investors was the ability to defer gratification.

他们会寻找像亚马逊这样的公司，这些公司愿意延迟满足，多年不盈利，而是大力投资未来；或者像好市多，它保持低利润率，将规模经济的好处与客户分享，从而实现长期成功，因为他们愿意承受短期的痛苦。

They would find companies like Amazon that would defer gratification that were prepared to not show any profits for many years by investing heavily for the future or Costco, which would keep its margins low and keep sharing its scale economies with its customers in a way that creates this sort of long term success because they're willing to take short term pain.

似乎随着食物供应的丰富，富裕国家享有的这种丰裕特权，让我们短路了这一生命的基本原则。

And it seems like with abundance of the supply of food, this great privilege of plenty in richer countries, we've short circuited this fundamental principle of life.

这有道理吗？

Does that make any sense at all?

加文，这完全说得通。

Gavin It makes perfect sense.

我实际上可以把它翻译成投资中的阿尔法收益，而这一切都是进化的结果。

I can actually translate it into alpha for investing, which is, again, all of this is evolutionary.

延迟满足之所以有效，是因为本能的冲动是立即获得满足。

The reason why deferred gratification works is because the instinctual impulse is to get gratified now.

所以，当投资者做某件事时，如果每个人都涌向GameStop，因为它的股价在上涨，这就是我们的群体本能，这种行为让人感觉良好，会激发多巴胺并激活我们的奖励系统，而当所有人都做同样的事时，阿尔法收益就不可能产生，这是由定义决定的。

So the more investors do something, if everybody is flocking towards GameStop because it's running up, and that is our herd mentality, which feels good, it creates dopamine and it's triggering our reward systems, alpha can't come when everyone's doing the same thing by definition.

所以，做某些事并不是说让自己受苦就是好的投资，而是认识到那些现在很难做到、但未来会带来回报的事情，这才是阿尔法收益的来源，因为本能的冲动是做当下感觉良好的事。

So by doing things, it's not that subjecting yourself to pain is good investing, it's that recognising something that will pay off later, but is very hard for people to do now is what's the source of alpha because the instinctual impulse is to do what feels good now.

食物也是如此。

And it's the same thing with food.

我们曾经是狩猎采集者，会连续好几天吃不上饭，我们的身体会感知葡萄糖，这是维持我们全身正常运作所必需的营养素。

We were hunter gatherers and we would go days and days without food, our bodies register glucose, which is a necessary nutrient for our whole body to function.

糖，我们会找到像蜂蜜和水果这样的东西。

Sugar, we find things like honey and fruit.

当我们找到时，顺便说一句，你在动物身上也能看到这种现象，我们会暴食。

And when we would find it, by the way, and you see this with animals, we would binge.

如果我们找到新鲜水果的来源，我们会吃到反胃为止。

If we found a source of fresh fruit, we would binge to the point of disgust.

当你看到动物发现一堆水果时，它们会全部吃掉，因为接下来它们可能一周都吃不到东西。

You see this with animals when they find a bunch of fruit, they'll just eat it all, because then they'll go a week with nothing.

我们对盐和脂肪也会这样做。

And we would also do this with salt and we would also do this with fat.

糖、盐和脂肪是我们作为动物最重要的三种营养素。

Sugar, salt and fat are three of the most important nutrients we can have as animals.

我们进化出了对这些物质的渴望。

And we evolved to crave these things.

而过去五到六十年，加工食品行业已经发现了这一点，并使其变得唾手可得。

And now the processed food industry has figured this out over the last fifty, sixty years and has made it abundant.

所以我们就是我们的动物大脑。

So we are our animal brain.

我会用这个说法来跟我的孩子们解释他们的冲动。

I use this with my kids because I have to describe to them their impulses.

我会用通俗的语言，把所谓的动物大脑或蜥蜴大脑，也就是你的边缘系统，和你的思考大脑，也就是前额叶皮层——你理性思考的部分，区分开来。

I keep it in layman's terms in terms of what I call the animal brain or the lizard brain, which is your limbic system, and your thinking brain, which is your prefrontal cortex, which is the rational thinking part of you.

你的动物大脑比你的思考大脑强大得多。

Your animal brain is way stronger than your thinking brain.

你的动物大脑说：我想要糖，我想要盐，我想要脂肪，我想要即时满足。

And your animal brain says, I want sugar, I want salt, I want fat, I want immediate gratification.

而你的思考大脑会说：是的，我们不该这么做。

And your thinking brain is like, Yeah, we shouldn't do that.

但大多数人没有足够的意志力来应对这种冲突。

But most people don't have the willpower to deal with that.

这是一种在三百年前对我们非常有益的进化冲动。

That's an evolutionary impulse that in three hundred years ago served us well.

但今天这完全是一种适应不良的反应。

But today is a totally maladaptive response.

投资也是如此，最好的投资者之所以能暂停这种冲动，是因为他们抵抗了这种冲动，而这种冲动正是造成负阿尔法的原因。

And that's the same thing with investing and why the best investors are able to pause that, because they're resisting the impulse, which is what creates the negative alpha.

他们能够延迟这种即时满足。

They're able to delay that gratification.

威廉，我记得你曾经告诉我一件非凡的事。

William I remember you once telling me an extraordinary thing.

我非常喜欢你用过的那个说法，你提到过‘痛苦套利’，说你持有一家公司，当时你认为它将经历糟糕的几个季度，人人都讨厌它，纷纷抛售。

I love this phrase that you used, where you talked about the pain arbitrage, where there was a company that you owned that you said, Look, it's going to have a terrible couple of quarters and everybody hates it and they're all bailing out.

我们的优势在于，我们愿意承受这种痛苦套利，利用他们的痛苦，在他们无法持有时买入。

Our advantage here is that we're willing to suffer this pain arbitrage, to exploit their pain and own it at a time when they can't bet own it.

我觉得这些说法非常优雅，遗憾的是我没有在书中使用它们，因为这是一个如此美妙的洞见——某种程度上，投资的诀窍之一，就是利用他人情绪失控的弱点。

I thought those are very elegant phrase, and I regretted not actually using it in my book because it's such a beautiful insight that in some way, the trick in investing or at least one trick in investing is to exploit other people's lack of emotional control.

加文，是的，非常对。

Gavin Yes, very much.

非常同意。

Very much.

而且你看，在投资中，这是一种高尚的追求。

And look, with investing, that's a noble pursuit.

但在生活中，这要困难得多，因为大多数企业都以赚钱为目的，它们利用我们的本能冲动。

With living a life, it's much more difficult because most of the corporations are out there to make money and they are preying upon our instinctual impulses.

我不确定这是否出于纯粹的恶意，但这绝对是纯粹的资本主义。

And I don't know if it's pure malice, it is definitely pure capitalism.

但大多数人没有受过教育，大多数人缺乏意志力，大多数人只关注便利。

But most people aren't educated, most people don't have the willpower, most people, they're focused on convenience.

所以，从街边小吃摊买一个奶油蛋糕或丹麦酥，比在家自己做饭容易得多。

And so it's much easier to pick up that Twinkie or pick up that Danish in that street food cart than is to make some food at home.

威廉，当查理·芒格谈到理解激励机制的重要性时，他说即使是非常正直的人，也存在激励他们自我致富和保住工作的动力，这对公司也是如此，他们往往能合理化并说服自己，认为这样做没问题。

William When Charlie Munger talks about the importance of understanding incentives and the fact that very decent people, there are incentives to enrich themselves and keep their own job, this goes for companies as well, they manage to rationalize and convince themselves in many cases that it's okay.

我认为你在投资界也能看到这种现象，无论是经纪公司，还是像Robinhood这样的平台，都有无数种方式让你拿到一把装满子弹的枪。

I think you see this actually tremendously in the investment world as well, where whether it's brokerage firms or, you know, Robinhood or whatever, there are all of these ways in which you're handed a loaded gun.

你被赋予了满足即时满足欲望的能力。

You're given the ability to satisfy your desire for instant gratification.

而生活中能够延迟满足的能力——无论是面对食物，选择坐着看Netflix而不是去锻炼，还是能够不卖出股票、不频繁交易——如果你能意识到自己天生就渴望这些事物，至少你就能开始对抗它们，这将是人生中巨大的优势。

And the ability in life to defer gratification, whether with the food, the desire to sit and watch Netflix instead of go exercise, or the ability not to sell your stock and trade, overtrade, That's a massive advantage in life if you can at least once you're aware of the fact that you're wired to want these things, at least you can start to push against it.

我一直在努力教我的孩子这一点，我认为这是任何人所能拥有的最重要的生活技能之一。

I've been trying to teach my children this, and I think it is one of the greatest life skills that anyone can have.

而学校并不教这些，这真的令人遗憾。

And they don't teach you this in school, which is really a shame.

如今，他们教孩子们STEM、编程和数学，却不去教他们基本的生活技能，比如执行功能、延迟满足、情绪管理和情绪觉察。

They're teaching all these children STEM today and programming and mathematics, and they're not teaching them basic life skills like executive function and deferred gratification and emotional management and emotional awareness.

我觉得这真的很可惜，因为我认为这些才是预测人生成功最重要的因素，远比你编程能力有多强更重要。

I think it's a real shame because I think these are the greatest predictors of life success, much more so than how good of a programmer you are.

你尝试过教他们什么，来帮助他们真正掌控这种瞬间做出愚蠢行为的本能冲动？

What have you tried to teach them to help them actually to gain control over this sort of instinctual urge to do the dumb thing in the moment?

这非常困难，你知道的，我已经写下了很多人生教训。

It's very difficult, you know, and and I've written down a lot of life lessons.

你可能记得，我一直是个喜欢写教训的人，因为我一生中犯过很多错误，现在依然在犯。

You may remember, I've always been someone that used to write lessons because I made a ton of mistakes and still do over my life.

我注意到，如果我把这些教训写下来，就记得更牢。

And I noticed that I remember them better if I wrote them down.

当我发现自己反复犯同样的错误时，就会意识到这些行为背后有更深层或更病态的原因，于是我会定期回顾我的教训。

And then when I would see patterns of my own mistakes occurring multiple times, I would realise there was something that was a little bit more deep seated or pathological, and then I would regularly review my lessons.

于是我挑出其中一些教训，整理成他们容易吸收的形式。

And so I've taken a handful of those lessons and I've put them into a format for them that they can absorb.

我尽量保持简单，比如区分‘动物脑’和‘思考脑’的概念。

I try to keep it pretty simple, like the concept of animal brain versus thinking brain.

我会说，我们的狗会尽可能多地吃巧克力。

I'll say, what would our dog Our dog would just eat as much chocolate as he could.

你知道，巧克力对狗是有毒的，它会因此丧命。

As you know, chocolate is toxic to dogs and he would kill himself.

当他们说‘但我就是想吃那个，而不是这个’的时候。

And when they're like, but I just want to eat that instead of that.

我会问，那你接下来会怎么样？

I'm like, well, what's going to happen to you?

之后你会有什么感觉？

What are you going to feel like after?

我努力教他们金科玉律，但对孩子来说，要让他们意识到自己对别人造成X感受时，这非常困难。

And I really try to teach them the golden rule, which is very difficult for children of you're making them feel like X.

如果别人这样对你，你会有什么感受？

How would you feel if they did that to you?

这种换位思考、站在他人角度看待问题的概念，对年幼的孩子来说非常难理解。

And that concept of turning the table and putting yourself in the other person's shoes is very difficult for young children.

有时我们真的会进行角色扮演，我会扮演他们，让他们来对我演一遍，这样他们就能体会到角色互换后的感受。

And sometimes we actually do role play where I'll take the role of them and I'll have them act out on me just so they can see what it's like if the roles are reversed.

但这需要大量的自我觉察。

But it's a lot of self awareness.

我认为关键是要认识到：当我有某种情绪、冲动或倾向去做某事时，它到底从何而来？

I think it's really recognising if I have a feeling, if I have an urge, if I have a tendency to do something, where's it coming from?

因为我觉得很多人其实并没有思考过，这种感觉是从哪里来的？

Because I think a lot of people don't actually think, where is this coming from?

为什么当别人对我说一些让我感觉糟糕的话时，我会被触动？

Why do I feel triggered when somebody says something to me that makes me feel bad?

这本不该让我有情绪反应，这种反应到底从何而来？

This isn't something that I should have been triggered by, where's that coming from?

只是深入挖掘一点，引导孩子们去谈论这些事，让他们不再因为谈论一些孩子通常不敢谈的话题而感到羞耻。

Just digging a little deeper and getting them to talk about it as kids and then getting them to not be ashamed about talking about things that maybe kids don't normally talk about.

当某人对我说了那样的话时，我真的感到被冷落，或者真的感到孤独，或者真的感到难过。

I really feel left out or I really feel lonely or I really feel sad when such and such says something to me.

然后你会问：你觉得这种感觉是从哪里来的？

And you say, okay, where do you think that's coming from?

你为什么感到难过？

Why are you sad?

这些正是我试图培养他们这种能力的方式，让他们能更有自我觉察，从而更好地解决问题和沟通。

Those are the kinds of things where I'm trying to build that muscle in them so that they can be more self aware, which will allow them to solve problems and communicate better.

在这方面，我学到的最实用、最有帮助的一课来自我的朋友肯·舒伯斯坦，我在书中写过他。

One of the most practical and helpful lessons I've ever learned on this front was from my friend Ken Schubenstein, who I wrote about in the book.

我曾经试图把你介绍给他，但没成功。

I once tried and failed to introduce you to actually.

他是个了不起的人。

He's a remarkable guy.

这怪他，不怪你。

It was his fault, not yours.

他真的是个特别棒的人。

And he was a he's a he's a really wonderful guy.

他曾经是对冲基金经理和私募股权人士，后来成为神经科学家和神经科医生，又回到了医学领域。

And he's a former hedge fund manager and private equity guy who became a neuroscientist, a neurologist, and has gone back to medicine.

他告诉我，因为他研究过大脑，也读过大量关于成瘾的文献。

And he said to me that because he had studied the brain, he'd studied a lot of addiction literature.

他说，有些特定的日子，我们更容易做出愚蠢的决定，重新陷入自我毁灭的行为。

Said that there are these dates in which we're much more likely to make dumb decisions and slip back into self destructive behavior.

例如，如果你饿了、生气了、孤独了、疲惫了、疼痛了、压力大了、悲伤了，这些状态都是容易做出愚蠢且自我毁灭的错误的绝佳前提。

So for example, if you were hungry, angry, lonely, tired, in pain, stressed, sad, These were great preconditions for making dumb self destructive mistakes.

所以他用了一个助记词‘HALT PS’来提醒自己这些状态。

So he had this mnemonic, HALT PS, to remind him of those states.

肯告诉我的一件对我非常有帮助的事就是，当你处于这些状态时，放慢脚步，不要做重要的决定。

And one of the things that Ken said that's been very helpful to me is just when you're in one of those states, just slow down and don't make really important decisions.

他说，这番话是在新冠疫情期间刚开始时，他在新冠病房工作时说的。

He said this when he was working in a COVID ward at the start of the COVID epidemic.

他说，当我精疲力尽，防护装备让我难受，我的背部又疼的时候——他之前受过背部伤。

He said, When I'm exhausted and my PPE equipment is hurting me and my back He had a back injury.

我的背在疼。

My back is hurting.

他有个新生儿，却因为必须隔离而无法见到孩子，只能住在酒店里。

He had a newborn kid who he couldn't even see because he had to stay away and he was living in a hotel.

他说，当我处于这种状态，感到悲伤、压力大、对自己生命感到恐惧时，我知道自己必须放慢节奏，格外小心，以更多的同理心对待他人，因为我清楚自己当时的状态是受损的。

He said, So if I'm in that state and I'm sad and I'm stressed and I'm fearful for my own life, I know that I've got to go slow and be really careful to treat people with more compassion because I know that I'm going to be compromised.

我的判断力会受到影响。

My judgment is going to be compromised.

我觉得这非常有帮助且实用。

I thought that was so helpful and practical.

杰里米，这真的很有帮助。

Jeremy It is so helpful.

这非常真实，尤其是在疲惫和饥饿的时候。

It is so true, especially with exhaustion and with hunger.

因为我知道，你可能也看过很多关于意志力和执行功能的书，它就像一块肌肉，真的是这样。

Because what I've learned, you've probably seen many books on this around willpower and executive function, it is like a muscle, literally.

如果你一整天都过度使用意志力，他们也称之为决策疲劳，但它会消耗殆尽。

If you exert too much willpower over the day, so they also call it decision fatigue, but it drains.

到了一天结束时，如果你又饿又累，甜点看起来会比你状态好的时候诱人得多。

And at the end of the day, you'll notice that pastry looks a lot more enticing if you're starving and tired than it does when you're not.

我认为同样的道理也适用于强迫性赌博、糟糕的投资和糟糕的人生决定。

And I think the same thing goes with compulsive gambling and bad investments and bad life decisions.

这些都是同样的东西。

It's all the same stuff.

威廉，你给我举了一些非常有趣的例子，回应了罗伊·鲍迈斯特关于决策疲劳的研究，即我们的意志力会随着一天的推移而逐渐耗尽。

William You gave me some fascinating examples of this responding to, guess it's Roy Baumeister's research on decision fatigue, where our willpower kind of depletes as the day goes on.

你举了这么多实际的例子，比如我记得你说过，你只是尽量减少那些不必要的决定。

You had all of these practical examples where, for example, I remember you saying that you just tried to reduce the number of decisions you didn't need to make.

如果有选择去哪家餐厅之类的，你会说，好，你就在这两个里面选一个。

If there was a choice of restaurant to go to or whatever, you'd be like, yeah, you pick between these two.

当我问你关于穿衣方面的事情时，你告诉我，如果我找到一套喜欢的健身服，我就直接买六套。

When I asked you what you did in terms of your clothing and stuff, you told me if I find one gym outfit that I like, I just buy six of them.

或者你有六副太阳镜。

Or you had six pairs of sunglasses.

你能谈谈这种简化生活、减少复杂性的方法吗？这样你就不太容易因为疲惫不堪、状态不佳而做出这些三十比五十的愚蠢决定。

Can you talk about that approach of trying to simplify your life, reduce complexity so that you're less prone to make these thirty:fifty dumb

因为你已经筋疲力尽，处于糟糕的状态？

decisions because you're just worn out, you're in a bad state?

是的。

Yeah.

有些人把这个做到了极致。

Some people take it to the extreme.

我相信你听说过奥巴马每天穿完全相同的衣服，扎克伯格也是这样做的。

I'm sure you've heard Obama had the same exact outfit every day and Mark Zuckerberg did this.

我从来没有做到那种地步。

I never went that far.

顺便说一下，我在很多方面都没能很好地做到这一点。

And by the way, I have not been particularly good at many aspects of this.

我的生活仍然过于复杂，我一直在努力减少其中的一些复杂性。

I still have far too much complexity in my life and I've been desperately trying to reduce some of it.

但我注意到，那些琐碎的、需要做决定的事情，我更喜欢在晚上决定，比如明天穿什么。

But I've noticed that mundane decisions that require decisions, prefer making at night, what am I going to wear the next day?

我发现，在我筋疲力尽的时候，干脆就不做任何真正的决定，这样更容易些。

I find it easier to just When I'm exhausted, I'm not making any real decisions.

但明天我该穿什么？

But what am I going to wear tomorrow?

这很简单。

That's easy.

然后当我醒来时，就不必再为此纠结了。

And then when I wake up, I don't have to think about it.

所以我不会让大脑的这部分去思考：我该穿白色还是黑色？

And so I'm not taxing that part of my brain of, Oh, do I wear white or black?

我该穿这条牛仔裤还是那条？

Do I wear these jeans or that jeans?

我对妻子一直很坦诚。

I have been honest with my wife.

自从我离开对冲基金行业后，事情变得容易多了。

It's been easier since I've been out of the hedge fund business.

当我还在对冲基金行业时，有时候一天要做一百个决定。

When I was in the hedge fund business, there were days I'd make a 100 decisions in a day.

到了一天结束时，我会感到精疲力尽。

I would be just shocked by the end of the day.

我回到家后，我妻子会问：‘你什么时候吃晚饭？’

And I come home and my wife would say, When do you want to have dinner?

你想吃什么晚饭？

What do you want have for dinner?

你想去哪儿吃晚饭？

Where do you want to go for dinner?

这些看似简单的事情。

Seemingly simple things.

我只会觉得：我实在受不了了，别再问了。

I would just be like, I can't, just stop.

我们以前会为此小吵一架，因为她一整天都没见到我。

And we used to get in little arguments about it because she hasn't seen me all day.

她完全有权利跟丈夫聊聊天，问些简单的问题，但我却像被击中了一样。

She fairly should be able to talk to her husband and ask simple questions, but I would be shot.

我认为这是值得记住的重要事情。

And I think it's just something important to remember.

他们在这方面也有一些非常疯狂的研究，特别是针对法官，研究者们分析了下午晚些时候与早晨所作出的有罪与无罪判决的统计数据。

And they have some really crazy studies on this too, particularly with court judges, where court judges, they've looked at the statistics of how many guilty versus innocent verdicts are passed in the late afternoon versus in the morning.

你绝不想在周五下午四点，成为一位法官面前五五开的抛硬币决定。

And you never want to be a fiftyfifty coin flip with a judge at 04:00 on a Friday.

这令人震惊。

Is staggering.

统计数据显示，法官在下午晚些时候的宽大倾向远比早晨差得多，这一差异具有统计学上的显著意义。

It's statistically wildly significant that the judge's proclivity to be lenient is way worse in the late afternoon than in the morning.

因此，这是一个已被充分记录的现象，除了建议你在早晨进行富有创造力的思考外，我并没有其他有效的应对方法。

And so this is just something that is well documented and I don't have any real hacks around this other than if you're going to be doing good creative thinking, do it in the morning.

重大决策，要在早晨头脑清醒时做出。

Big decisions, do it in the morning when you're fresh.

不要在下午晚些时候做需要高度脑力投入的事情。

Don't do anything late afternoon where it requires really hard mental process.

让我们短暂休息一下，听听今天赞助商的消息。

Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

当你经营一家小企业时，雇佣合适的人才至关重要。

When you're running a small business, hiring the right person can make all the difference.

合适的员工能提升团队水平，提高生产力，推动你的业务更上一层楼。

The right hire can elevate your team, boost your productivity and take your business to the next level.

但找到这样的人本身可能就像一份全职工作。

But finding that person can feel like a full time job in itself.

这就是LinkedIn招聘的用武之地。

That's where LinkedIn jobs comes in.

他们的全新AI助手通过为你匹配真正符合需求的顶尖候选人，消除了招聘中的猜测成分。

Their new AI assistant takes the guesswork out of hiring by matching you with top candidates who actually fit what you're looking for.

它不再让你逐份翻阅简历，而是根据你的标准筛选申请者，并突出显示最匹配的人选，帮你节省数小时时间，在合适的人选出现时迅速行动。

Instead of sifting through piles of resumes, it filters applicants based on your criteria and highlights the best matches, saving you hours and helping you move fast when the right person comes along.

最棒的是，这些优秀人才已经都在LinkedIn上。

The best part is that those great candidates are already on LinkedIn.

事实上，通过LinkedIn招聘的员工至少留任一年的可能性比通过主要竞争对手招聘的员工高出30%。

In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor.

第一次就招对人。

Hire right the first time.

请前往linkedin.com/studybill免费发布职位，然后推广职位以使用LinkedIn Jobs的新AI助手，更轻松快捷地找到顶尖候选人。

Post your job for free at linkedin.com/studybill, then promote it to use LinkedIn jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates.

免费发布职位请访问linkedin.com/studybill。

That's linkedin.com/studybill to post your job for free.

条款和条件适用。

Terms and conditions apply.

亿万富翁投资者通常不会把资金存放在高收益储蓄账户中。

Billion dollar investors don't typically park their cash in high yield savings accounts.

相反，他们常常采用机构投资者常用的被动收入策略——私人信贷。

Instead, they often use one of the premier passive income strategies for institutional investors, private credit.

如今，得益于Fundrise收益基金，这一被动收入策略已向所有规模的投资者开放，该基金已吸引超过6亿美元投资，分红率为7.97%。

Now the same passive income strategy is available to investors of all sizes, thanks to the Fundrise Income Fund, which has more than $600,000,000 invested and a 7.97% distribution rate.

随着传统储蓄收益率下降，私人信贷在近几年增长为一个万亿美元的资产类别也就不足为奇了。

With traditional savings yields falling, it's no wonder private credit has grown to be a trillion dollar asset class in the last few years.

访问 fundrise.com/wsb，只需几分钟即可投资 Fundrise 收入基金。

Visit fundrise.com/wsb to invest in the Fundrise Income Fund in just minutes.

该基金在2025年的总回报率为8%，自成立以来的平均年总回报率为7.8%。

The fund's total return in 2025 was 8% and the average annual total return since inception is 7.8%.

过往表现不预示未来结果，截至2025年1月20日12:30的当前分配率。

Past performance does not guarantee future results, current distribution rate as of twelvethirty onetwenty twenty five.

投资前请仔细考虑投资材料，包括目标、风险、费用和开支。

Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses.

更多信息可在 fundraise.com/income 的收入基金招募说明书中找到。

This and other information can be found in the income funds prospectus at fundraise.com/income.

这是一则付费广告。

This is a paid advertisement.

2026年，你终于要行动了。

2026 is the year you finally do it.

这一年，你不再只是抱着那个想法，而是真正把它变成现实。

The year you stop sitting on that idea and actually turn it into something real.

我们都有技能、想法和副项目，知道它们本可以做得更好，但梦想与行动之间的区别，在于迈出第一步。

We all have skills, ideas, and side projects we know could be more, But the difference between dreaming and doing is taking that first step.

Shopify 为你提供了在线和线下销售所需的一切工具。

Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person.

数以百万计的创业者，包括我自己，都已经迈出了这一步，从家喻户晓的大品牌到刚刚起步的初创创始人。

Millions of entrepreneurs, including myself, have already taken this leap from massive household brands to first time founders just getting started.

使用 Shopify，打造你的梦想店铺非常简单。

With Shopify, building your dream store is simple.

你可以从数百个精美的模板中选择，并自定义以匹配你的品牌风格。

You can choose from hundreds of beautiful templates and customize them to match your brand.

设置也非常快速，内置的 AI 工具能撰写产品描述，甚至帮助编辑产品图片。

Setup is fast too, with built in AI tools that write product descriptions and even help edit product photos.

随着你的成长，Shopify 也会与你一同成长，帮助你从一个仪表板处理更多订单并拓展新市场。

And as you grow, Shopify grows with you, helping you handle more orders and expand into new markets all from one dashboard.

在2026年，别再等待，立即用Shopify开始销售。

In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify.

注册每月1美元的试用版，今天就开始在shopify.com/wsb上销售。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/wsb.

前往shopify.com/wsb。

Go to shopify.com/wsb.

就是shopify.com/wsb。

That's shopify.com/wsb.

新的一年，让Shopify陪伴你聆听第一声成功。

Hear your first this new year with Shopify by your side.

好的。

All right.

回到节目。

Back to the show.

我想更多谈谈你在管理Tourbillon Capital Partners期间所养成的高效习惯，因为某种程度上，你正身处风暴中心。

I wanted to talk more about the kind of what I would regard as high performance habits that you had to adopt while you were managing Tourbillon Capital Partners, because it was in some ways, you were right in the belly of the beast.

这就是熔炉。

This was the furnace.

你是在2012年左右设立这家公司的，2013年推出基金，一直运营到2018年。

Was kind of you set up the firm in 2012, think, launched the fund in 2013, ran it until 2018.

对于不了解的人而言，杰森在对冲基金界简直就是一颗明星。

For people who don't know, Jason was like this sort of hotshot in the hedge fund business.

Tourbillon是对冲基金历史上最炙手可热的初创公司之一，管理资产超过40亿美元，前三年的回报率极为惊人。

Tourbillon had one of the hottest startups in the history of hedge funds and got over $4,000,000,000 in assets and had these amazing returns for the first three years.

但随后经历了几年的低迷，部分原因是像Valiant这样的投资爆雷了——你之前靠它赚了不少钱，后来又重新投入，结果它崩盘了。

And then sort of had a couple of bad years, partly because things like Valiant blew up, which you'd made lots of money on before and then went back into, and then it fell.

然后你在2018年辞职，退还了所有投资者的资金，开启了全新的生活和事业，我们稍后还会再聊到这个。

Then you quit in 2018 and returned all the capital and started this new life and new business, which we'll talk about again later.

当我去见你的时候，你正处在那个转折阶段。

And when I went to meet you, you were sort of in the midst of that.

我想我们第一次交谈大概是在2017年，也可能是2016或2017年，大概就是2017年吧。

I think it was about 2017 probably when we first talked, 2016, 2017, probably 2017.

你给我的感觉简直像一名极限运动员。

You struck me as almost like this extreme athlete.

你把早年生活、大学生涯中那种超越并胜过所有人的渴望全都融入其中了。

It was like you'd taken all of the stuff from your early life, from your college career, the desire to out run and outperform everyone.

这就像一场极其迅速、极其激烈的游戏。

And it was just this really fast, really intense game.

你试图以一种近乎不可能的方式应对其中的压力。

You were trying to manage the stress of it in this sort of almost impossible way.

因此，你发明了各种生活技巧来应对这种巨大的强度、情感压力和重负。

And so you'd come up with all of these life hacks to deal with the sheer intensity, the emotional intensity, the pressure.

当我去你在曼哈顿中城的Tourbillon办公室拜访时，让我印象深刻的是，你把整个空间都设计成能促进更好表现、更健康员工和更高产工作的环境。

And one of the things that struck me when I came to visit you in your office at Tourbillon in Midtown Manhattan was that you designed the whole place so that it would promote better performance, healthier employees, more productive work.

你能谈谈你是如何实际布置你的工作环境的吗？

Can you talk about how you actually physically structured your environment?

因为我觉得这其实是非常可复制的，我们大多数人其实都能做到。

Because I think that is actually a really That's a very cloneable thing that most of us can do.

杰里米，是的。

Jeremy Yeah.

我的意思是，我曾经身处这样的环境，我认为投资行业历来重视长时间工作和高强度的工作态度，却完全忽视身体健康和心理健康，对吧？

I mean, I had been in environments I think the investment business has historically valued intense hours, intense work ethic, and zero physical health or mental health benefits, right?

比如巴菲特一坐就是十五个小时，读着财报和季报，喝着可口可乐，肚子圆滚滚的；查理·芒格戴着可乐瓶底般的眼镜，几乎因过度阅读而失明。

The ideas of Buffett sitting around for fifteen hours reading Ks and Qs, drinking a Coca Cola with his big gut, Charlie Munger with his Coke bottle glasses, almost going blind from reading so much.

我们历来推崇的那些最优秀的投资者，实际上大多看起来并不健康，老实说，他们可能确实也不健康。

Most of the best investors that we have prized historically don't really look healthy and probably aren't, to be honest.

因此，一直以来都强调：工作时间要比别人长，阅读量要比别人多。

So there has been this emphasis of work as longer than anybody, read longer than anybody.

我意识到，在很多情况下，这种关联看似线性，但实际上并非如此，它是一种诱惑。

And I recognize because there is a linear in many instances, although it's not linear, it's a seduction.

人们相信：我读的财报和季报越多，在Excel上花的时间越长，投入研究的时间越多，就能发现越多机会，产生越多超额收益，诸如此类。

There's the belief that the more Ks and Qs and research I read, the more hours I spend on Excel, the more hours I spend researching things, the more opportunities I'll uncover, the more alpha I'll generate, blah, blah, blah.

乔尔：所以这就像米达斯神话——我工作得越多，就越能把一切变成黄金。

Joel And so it's this Midas myth of the more I work, the more I'll start turning things to gold kind of thing.

顺便说一下，我也有这种倾向，这正是我在二十多岁时生病的原因，因为我做了同样的事，只是我病得更严重。

And by the way, I have that proclivity, which is how I got sick in my 20s, because I did the same shit, except I got really sick.

某种程度上，这反而是一种幸运。

In some ways that was a blessing.

所以我想要打造一个有利于保持身心健康的工作环境。

So I wanted to design a place that was conducive to staying healthy, both physically and mentally.

我在办公室里安装了一间很棒的健身房。

I put a really nice gym in the office.

我装了一个蒸汽淋浴房。

I put a steam shower.

我装了一个桑拿房，配备了很好的设备。

I put a sauna, really good equipment.

我还设了一个冥想室和阅览室，墙壁都是隔音的，没有电视，没有任何刺激物。

I put a meditation room and reading room in that has soundproof walls, no TV, no stimuli at all.

你进去后，可以冥想、小睡，或者随便读点什么。

You go in there, you meditate, you take a nap, or you read whatever.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得有遮光窗帘。

With blackout curtains, I remember.

我的意思是，那完全是完全

I mean, it was totally totally

完全是这样。

Totally like yeah.

感官剥夺室。

Sensory deprivation room.

我们还有一个娱乐室，里面有乒乓球桌和电子游戏，而且我禁止整个办公室出现任何加工垃圾食品。

We had a fun room that had a ping pong table, had video games, and then I allowed no processed junk food in the entire office.

有客人来时会要可乐或健怡可乐，但我们连糖包都没有。

And we would have guests come in and ask for a Coke or a Diet Coke, and we didn't even have packets of sugar.

是的。

Yeah.