RWH029：超越富有——与皮科·艾耶尔对话

我想

I want

你们想象一下，在夏季高峰期的奥斯陆度过三天。

you guys to imagine spending three days in Oslo at the height of the summer.

你有漫长的白昼、绝佳的美食、漂浮在奥斯陆峡湾上的桑拿房，而且你所有的对话对象都是真正塑造未来的人。

You got long days of daylight, incredible food, floating saunas on the Oslo Fjord, and every conversation you have is with people who are actually shaping the future.

这就是奥斯陆自由论坛。

That's what the Oslo Freedom Forum is.

从2026年6月1日开始，奥斯陆自由论坛将迎来它的第十八年，汇聚来自世界各地的活动家、技术专家、记者、投资者和建设者。

From June 1 through the third twenty twenty six, the Oslo Freedom Forum is entering its eighteenth year bringing together activists, technologists, journalists, investors, and builders from all over the world.

其中许多人正站在历史的最前沿。

Many of them operating on the front lines of history.

在这里，你可以亲耳听到人们讲述如何用比特币应对货币崩溃、如何用人工智能揭露人权侵害，以及在审查和威权压力下构建技术的故事。

This is where you hear firsthand stories from people using Bitcoin to survive currency collapse, using AI to expose human rights abuses, and building technology under censorship and authoritarian pressures.

这些都不是抽象的概念。

These aren't abstract ideas.

这些是现实中的人们正在使用的工具。

These are tools real people are using right now.

你将与大约2000位非凡人士同处一室——异议人士、创始人、慈善家、政策制定者，这些是你不仅会聆听、还会共进晚餐的人。

You'll be in the room with about 2,000 extraordinary individuals, dissidents, founders, philanthropists, policymakers, the kind of people you don't just listen to but end up having dinner with.

在三天里，你将体验到震撼人心的主舞台演讲、关于自由科技与金融主权的动手工作坊、沉浸式艺术装置，以及在会议结束后仍持续进行的深入对话。

Over three days, you'll experience powerful main stage talks, hands on workshops on freedom tech and financial sovereignty, immersive art installations, and conversations that continue long after the session's end.

而这一切都将在六月的奥斯陆发生。

And it's all happening in Oslo in June.

如果这听起来像是你向往的氛围，那你运气不错，因为你可以亲自到场参加。

If this sounds like your kind of room, well, you're in luck because you can attend in person.

标准票和赞助者票已在oslofreedomforum.com开放购买，赞助者票提供深度参与机会、私人活动，以及与演讲者的小团体交流时间。

Standard and patron passes are available at oslofreedomforum.com with patron passes offering deep access, private events, and small group time with the speakers.

奥斯陆自由论坛不仅仅是一场会议。

The Oslo Freedom Forum isn't just a conference.

这是一个理念与现实交汇的地方，是那些亲历未来的人们正在构建未来的地方。

It's a place where ideas meet reality and where the future is being built by people living it.

每一家企业都在问同一个问题。

Every business is asking the same question.

我们如何让AI为我们服务？

How do we make AI work for us?

可能性无穷无尽，而猜测风险太高。

The possibilities are endless and guessing is too risky.

但袖手旁观绝非选项，因为有一件事几乎可以肯定：你的竞争对手已经在行动了。

But sitting on the sidelines is not an option because one thing is almost certain, your competitors are already making their move.

借助甲骨文的NetSuite，你今天就能让AI发挥作用。

With NetSuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work today.

NetSuite是超过43,000家企业信赖的头号AI云ERP系统。

NetSuite is the number one AI cloud ERP trusted by over 43,000 businesses.

它是一个统一的套件，将你的财务、库存、电商、人力资源和客户关系管理整合为单一数据源。

It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into a single source of truth.

这种互联互通的数据让AI更聪明，不再只是猜测。

That connected data is what makes your AI smarter so it doesn't just guess.

现在，通过NetSuite AI连接器，您可以使用自己选择的AI工具连接到真实的业务数据，提出您曾经有过的所有问题，从关键客户到现金状况，再到库存趋势。

And now with NetSuite AI Connector, you can use the AI of your choice to connect to your actual business data and ask every question you ever had, from key customers to cash on hand to inventory trends.

无论您的公司年收入是数百万还是数亿，NetSuite都能帮助您保持领先。

Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you stay ahead of the pack.

目前，NetSuite免费提供商业指南《揭开AI的神秘面纱》，请访问netsuite.com/study获取。

Right now, NetSuite's free business guide, Demystifying AI at netsuite.com/study.

这份指南免费提供，访问netsuite.com/study即可获取。

The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/study.

netsuite.com/study。

Netsuite.com/study.

好了，回到节目。

All right, back to the show.

如果我们想要复制您的一些做法，显然您的个人生活和职业生涯都非常独特。

If we were to clone certain aspects of what you're doing, obviously you have very idiosyncratic life and professional life.

在观察了更多人如何工作之后，您觉得最值得复制的那一件事是什么？

Is there something that you think the more you see other people working, the more you think this is the one thing you should really replicate?

因为这真的有效，而大多数人却正在远离它。

Because this just really works and most people are getting away from it.

我想这要回到你几分钟前问的一个问题，威廉，那就是问问自己什么真正能激励你。

I would say it goes back to something you asked a few minutes ago, William, which is just to ask yourself what really stimulates you.

什么能让你快乐、高效、充实，而什么不能？

What is going to make you happy, productive, and replete, and and and what is not?

每个人都会有自己的答案。

Each person will have her own answer to that.

但正如你之前所说，关键是不要照搬任何人的公式，而是花时间弄清楚适合你自己的方法。

But as you said some time ago, that's the key thing, not taking any formula from anybody else but taking the time to work out what is the formula for you.

正如你提到的，我某时发现，或者说我每天上午十点到十一点最清醒，下午三点最昏沉，于是根据这一点调整了我的生活，因为我能在家工作、自己当老板，而其他人则在午夜最高效。

As you mentioned, I worked out at some point, or I'm always most alert at ten in the morning, eleven in the morning, I'm most groggy at three in the afternoon and shaped my life around it as I'm able to do working from home and self employed and other people are most productive at midnight.

但我认为，像运动员或音乐家那样，尽可能精确地找出适合自己的方式很重要。

But I think it's important to work out as precisely as you can the way an athlete or a musician might.

什么样的日常安排对你最有效？

What routine works for you?

什么时候喝杯茶是最好的？

When is the best time to have your cup of tea?

什么时候往身体里补充一些糖分，或者休息一下，出去跑一跑，或者其他任何事情，最佳时机是什么时候？

When is the best time to put some sugar into your system or or take a break or take a run or whatever it might be?

我很好奇，当你去硅谷做演讲时，比如访问谷歌这样的公司，或者去给美国运通、IBM或可口可乐这样的公司讲话时——因为你经常向这些高效主导公司的高管们发表演讲——他们对你所谈论的关于过一种更安静、更平静的生活、不让科技主宰你的人生的观点，有什么看法？

I'm I'm curious when you go to Silicon Valley, for example, to give talks, when you go visit companies like Google or when you go speak to companies like Amex or IBM or Coca Cola, because you give a lot of these talks to high flying executives and the like at these very effective dominant companies, what do they make of what you're talking about in terms of leading this quieter, more still life with technology not running your life, basically?

我觉得有两个方面。

I think two things.

我觉得第一反应是他很容易这么说。

I think the first impulse is easy for him to say.

他并不在一家繁忙的公司里。

He's not in a busy corporation.

他没有同事。

He doesn't have colleagues.

而且他愿意过简单的生活，而这并不是大多数人真正想要的。

And and he's prepared to live simply, which is not what most people necessarily want.

但我认为第二个反应是，这确实触动了许多人内心深处的一种暗示或渴望——他们曾去徒步三天，或曾经生病卧床，当他们回来时，才意识到自己平时错过了什么，意识到自己一直沿着早已熟悉的轨道飞速前行，却没注意到内心另一部分正在挨饿。

But I think the second impulse is that it does touch some intimation or longing in many people where they've gone on a hike for for three days or they've been sick and laid up at some point, and they've come back realizing what they've been missing the rest of the time and realizing they've been moving so quickly along the grooves that they've already established that they haven't noticed how another part of them is starving.

我有时会遇到一些孩子，比如，我很幸运，成长在一个手机还不普遍的年代。

I sometimes will run into kids, for example, who, you know, I'm lucky to have grown up in a generation before cell phones were common.

他们会对我说：不。

And they'll say to me, No.

我父母带我们去坐邮轮，那时我们上不了网。

My parents took took us on a cruise, and we couldn't get online.

第一天简直是我生命中最糟糕的一天。

And that first day was just the worst day of my life.

我完全不知道该做什么。

I just didn't know what to do.

我无法联系我的朋友。

I couldn't access my friends.

我无法……我无能为力。

I couldn't I couldn't I was powerless.

那时我感觉几乎无法呼吸。

It was as if I couldn't breathe.

第二天是我生命中第二糟糕的一天。

And that second day was the second worst day of my life.

我的意思是，我真的不知道人类怎么能离开这个机器活下去。

I mean, I I didn't know how any human could live without without this machine.

那一周是我生命中最美好的一周。

And that week was the best week of my life.

换句话说，一旦你彻底戒断，或者因为环境所迫突然改变了生活方式，当然，适应需要一段时间，但随后你会突然意识到：等等。

In other words, once you've done cold turkey or or, through circumstances, adjusted to suddenly living in a different way, of course, the adjustment takes a while, but then suddenly you realize, wait a minute.

实际上，我之前错过了某些重要的东西。

Actually, there is something here that I was missing out on before.

我认为企业里的忙碌人士也有类似的体验。

I think busy people in corporations probably have their equivalent.

他们所有人都必须时刻使用手机工作，这无可厚非。

All of them have to use a cell phone all the time for their jobs, rightly so.

但有趣的是，像谷歌这样的公司里，我认为有超过一千人专门教授瑜伽，这还不包括他们所有的冥想空间和其他设施。

But it's interesting that Google, for example, is filled with I think there are more than a thousand people who actually teach yoga there quite apart from all the meditation spaces and whatever that they have.

这是过去几年硅谷最重要的趋势之一。

That's one of the biggest things in Silicon Valley these last few years.

这反映出我们的生活可能正失去平衡。

It speaks to the sense that maybe our lives are getting out of balance.

正如你一开始所说，我认为外部世界对我们来说太过占据主导、令人不堪重负，以至于我们忘记了内在，尽管真正的平静与清晰只能来自内心。

And as you said at the outset, I think the external is so much with us and so overwhelming that we forget the internal even though the internal is the only place where peace and clarity can really come from.

这就像引擎一样，没有它，一切就都无法运转。

It's like, you know, it's the engine without which nothing really works.

我的意思是，五百七百年前，那位睿智的德国神秘主义者迈斯特·埃克哈特曾说过：只要内在的修行足够好，外在就永远不会贫乏。

I mean, five seven hundred years ago, I think the wise German mystic, Meister Eckhart, said that as long as the inner work is good, the outer will never be puny.

就我们的工作、关系和人生而言，照顾好你内心的东西，其余的一切自然会水到渠成。

Referring to our jobs, our relationships, our lives, take care of what's inside you and the rest will take care of itself.

但如果你只关注外在，那就像是车子坏了却还在不断给它刷漆一样。

But if you're only taking care of what's external, you're like somebody whose car is broken and you keep repainting it.

不断涂漆固然不错，但你并没有真正解决根本问题，也没有触及真正力量的源泉。

It's great to keep painting it, but you're not actually addressing the problem or the place where the real power lies.

一旦你开始关注内在，你就无需再为其他事情如此担忧了。

And once you address that, then really you don't have to worry so much about the other things.

所以我感觉，我发现务实的人往往比其他地方的人更愿意接受建议。

So I sense you know, I have found that practical people, are much more open to suggestions than elsewhere.

我的意思是，我不会在学术圈里谈论这些内容，我觉得那里的人耳朵都关得很紧。

I mean, I wouldn't talk about this stuff in the academy, and I think people's ears there are very closed.

无论是可口可乐、福克斯电视，还是我所接触的其他任何人，我都深深被他们对任何建议的热切回应所打动和感动。

People, whether it's Coca Cola or Fox TV or whoever it is that I'm talking to, I'm really moved and humbled by how eager they are to respond to anything.

我知道你播客和你书籍的美妙之处在于，你真正探讨的不是如何投资，而是如何生活，如何过好生活。

I know that part of your podcast, the beauty of it, and the beauty of your book is you're really addressing not the issue of how to invest but how to live and how to live well.

我认为，你所接触的大多数投资者之所以让你印象深刻，是因为他们生活与工作的平衡、他们的慷慨，以及他们为人处世的方式，而不仅仅是他们在股市中的表现。

I think most of the investors that you talk to move and impress you because of their life work balance and because of their generosity and because of the way that they move through the world as much as they move through the stock market.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为企业在这方面非常开放，而诗人可能就不会这样。

And I think corporations are very open open to that in a way that, you know, poets might not be.

诗人为了谋生拼命奔波，这非常困难。

Poets are hustling so much to try to make a living, which is very difficult.

他们无法承担忽视底线的代价。

They can't afford to look away from the bottom line.

这就像是我和《时代》杂志的关系。

But it's like me and Time Magazine.

因为我过着相当舒适的生活，所以我能够思考我真正想要构建怎样的人生，我认为这就是我对企业界的理解。

Because I had quite a comfortable form of living, I was able to think about what life do I really want to construct, and and I think that's my sense of the corporate world.

我喜欢与企业界保持联系，部分原因是，我认为当我去企业谈论这些话题时，我感觉几乎每个人都有自己的一套解决方案。

I like being in touch with it partly because I think, you know, if I visit a corporation to speak about these things, my sense is that almost everybody there has come up with her own solution.

她每天做饭，或者去航海、打高尔夫，或者他去长跑。

She cooks every day or she sails or she plays golf or he goes goes for a long run.

但无论如何，他们直觉地意识到，自己需要从工作那压倒性的要求中抽身休息。

But one way or another, they found intuitively that they need a break from the overpowering demands of their work.

他们实际上已经找到了与我所做事情相当的替代方式，同样有价值。

They've actually already come to their own equivalents of what I do, which just as valuable.

我想补充的是，世界正在不断加速，因此我们可能需要更多的这类休息时刻。

And the only thing I would add to them and to that is that the world keeps accelerating, so perhaps we need even more of those breaks.

你知道，在我的书里有一个著名的故事，说甘地有一天早上醒来，说：今天真的，真的特别忙。

You know, you you read in my book, there's a famous story of how Gandhi once woke up, and he said, today is really, really busy.

我今天可能没法冥想了。

I'm I'm not going to be able to meditate for a day.

他的朋友和追随者都感到非常震惊。

And his friends and followers are really shocked.

等等。

Wait.

怎么了？

What's going on?

他说：不。

Said, no.

今天真是特别忙。

This is a really busy day.

我得冥想两个小时，而不是一个小时。

I've got to meditate for two hours instead of one hour.

我记得有一次，我在一个广播节目中提到过这个故事，一位女士打来电话，我能听出她声音中的愤怒和沮丧。

And I remember when, you know, I I cited that once on a on a radio program, and a woman called in, and I could hear the anger and and frustration in her voice.

她说：‘对你来说当然容易了，你是个旅行作家，坐在日本那里说这种话，而我是个年轻妈妈，有两个孩子。',

And she said, all very well for you, you know, travel writer sitting off in Japan saying that I'm a young mother and I got two kids.

我正在努力创业。

I'm trying to start a business.

我怎么能做到呢？

How can I do that?

当我听到她的声音时，我能感受到其中充满了敌意，我觉得她和孩子们在一起时，可能并没有给予他们最好的自己。

And when I heard her voice, I could hear so much aggression in it that I thought that being with her kids, she wasn't necessarily giving them the best of her.

如果她能抽出三十分钟，请朋友、母亲或丈夫帮忙照看孩子，她就能以更好的状态回到家人和她的小生意中。

And if only she could take thirty minutes off and ask a friend or her mother or her husband to look after the kids, she would come back to her family and to her small business with with much more to offer.

但她不知怎的陷入了这样一种思维循环：认为只要二十四小时全天候履行自己的责任，就是在最大程度上公正对待它们，而或许事实并非如此。

But somehow she'd got into the cycle of thinking that by being with her obligations twenty four hours a day, she was doing greatest justice to them, which perhaps she wasn't.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为在商业界和投资领域，我总有一种感觉，我们中的许多人感到不堪重负，因为有太多事情同时涌向我们。

I I think in in the business world, in the investing world, I just get this sense that so many of us feel overwhelmed, that there are just so many things coming at us.

而让我感到惊讶的是，当我看到像雷·达利奥这样的人时——我想你在温哥华的TED活动上经常见到他——雷每天都能抽出时间冥想。

And then it's striking to me that when I look at someone like Ray Dalio, who I guess you see a lot in Vancouver at the TED events, Ray manages to find time to meditate every day.

最近我在温哥华的TED演讲上见到你时，碰到了雷，和他聊了几句，他看起来如此专注且平静。

When I saw you in Vancouver recently at the TED Talk, I ran into Ray, and I was chatting to him there, he just looked so present and so calm.

我认为这正是他四十多年冥想实践的结果，因为他有意识地抽身出来，观察自己的情绪，觉察自己的状态。

And I think that's really a result of forty or so years of meditation is because he's taken the time to step back and watch his emotions and be aware of what state he is.

我认为这极大地帮助了他作为投资者的表现。

I think it's helped him tremendously as an investor.

是的。

Yes.

我认为，这也源于他们所从事的高压、高曝光度的工作，正是这种环境促使他们认识到冥想的必要性。

And I would say that also it's a result of having that very high pressure, high profile job that has moved them to see the necessity of meditation.

这两者是相辅相成的。

They go hand in hand.

我听说鲁珀特·默多克也会冥想，但在年轻一代中，几乎所有的领导者都会散步，比如史蒂夫·乔布斯。

I think I heard Rupert Murdoch meditate, but certainly in a younger generation, I think almost all the leaders Steve Jobs would take walks.

当然，他深受在日本和印度修行冥想经历的影响。

Of course, he was deeply formed by his time practicing meditation in Japan and India.

我曾经在TED与埃文·威廉姆斯共进过一次午餐，他是推特的联合创始人。

I once did a little lunch conversation at TED with Evan Williams, who co founded Twitter.

我深受触动，因为我很少遇到像他这样如此深思熟虑、沉着冷静、内心安定的人。

I was really moved because I seldom met anybody who seemed so thoughtful, so deliberate, so centered as he.

我认为，他实际上让整个公司每天早晨上班前冥想三十分钟，这本质上是一种投资——他们能做的最有价值的投资，以让生活既幸福又高效。

And I think he actually had his whole company meditate for thirty minutes every morning at the beginning of the day as an investment, essentially, the most useful investment they could make in order to make their lives both happy and productive.

因此，如果在我上次见到你的TED大会上，1800人中正流行正念，我一点也不惊讶，这也正是TED请我写一本关于静心之书的原因。

So I wouldn't be surprised if at the TED conference where I last saw you among 1,800 people, you know, mindfulness would certainly be a big item, which is why TED asked me to write a book on stillness.

但很可能，这些人中的大多数都在做某种事情，为自己的头脑和日常生活腾出空间。

But probably the majority of those people were doing something or other to open space in their heads and in their days.

而且我觉得，你对静心和正念的阐述中，有一件事非常有帮助，那就是它并不一定仅仅指冥想——你本人其实从未真正冥想过，但还有其他方式可以进入某种冥想或沉思状态。

And I I think one thing that's been very helpful about the way you've talked about stillness is is and mindfulness is that it's not necessarily just about meditation, which you've never really done, but there are other ways of getting into some kind of meditative or contemplative state.

在很多方面，你的整个人生似乎都是沉思性和冥想性的，无论是你的旅行方式，还是你的写作方式。

And it it seems like in many ways, your whole life is contemplative and meditative, the way that you travel, the way that you write.

嗯，威廉，你这么说真是太客气了。

Well, I mean, that's being very generous, William.

我想我最大的优势在于，作为一名作家，我的工作就是坐在书桌前，一动不动地数小时，试图看清自己思绪和杂念背后的真相。

I would say my one big advantage I have is that as a writer, my job is to sit at my desk without moving hour after hour and trying to see what lies on the far side of my projections and my chatter.

所以我的妻子会说，哦，是的。

And so my wife would say, oh, yeah.

皮卡从未冥想过，他只是每天在书桌前静坐数小时。

Pikka has never meditated, all he does is sit still at his desk for hours each day.

但确实如此。

But yeah.

我认为另一部分在于，这并没有宗教成分。

And I think the other part of it is that there's no religious component.

我想也许泰德让我写那本关于静止的书，正是因为我没有宗教背景或倾向。

I think maybe one reason that Ted asked me to write that book on stillness was precisely the fact that I don't have a religious background or orientation.

我一生中从未进行过冥想。

I've never meditated in my life.

我知道，作为一种正式的修行，冥想对很多人来说可能显得可怕、压迫或不舒服。

I know that meditation as a formal discipline can seem scary or imposing or uncomfortable to people.

但只要找到类似的替代方式——无论那是什么——比如跑步、散步，或者每天早晨花二十分钟不碰任何设备，静静思考即将到来的一天，都会带来天壤之别。

But just the equivalent, whatever it might be, which is often taking a run or taking a walk or spending twenty minutes at the beginning of every day just without your devices thinking about the day to come makes a world of difference.

我记得有一次，我和达赖喇嘛以及他的弟弟共进晚餐，他弟弟也是一位地位崇高的仁波切。

I remember once I was traveling with the Dalai Lama and his younger brother, who is quite an exalted Rinpoche Lama also, having dinner with him.

达赖喇嘛的弟弟说：你看，你每天都要花十分钟洗澡。

The Dalai Lama's brother said, Look, every day you take a shower for ten minutes.

你可以在这十分钟里漫无目的地想昨天尼克斯队的比赛，或者泰勒·斯威夫特会不会推出新专辑，也可以思考你今天要做什么，或者你真正关心的是什么。

You can use that shower just for idly thinking about what happened to the Knicks last night or whether Taylor Swift's about to bring out a new record or not, or you can think about what you're going to do in that day or what you really care about or whatever.

但每天都有十分钟的空白时间，你可以用它们来做有意义的事，也可以任由它们溜走，这取决于你自己。

But there are ten blank minutes in a day, and you can use them for good or you can just fit them away, but it's up to you.

所以这与正式的冥想恰恰相反，但它是一个小小的例子，展示了我们如何为之后的一切定下基调。

So it's the opposite of formal meditation, but it's a tiny example of a way in which, you know, we can really set the tone for everything that that follows.

当我读你的旅行写作时，我觉得——虽然你在很大程度上以旅行作家的身份为人所知——但你的文字中有一种关于如何保持清醒的意味，而这正是佛教冥想的核心。

I I feel like when I when I read your travel writing, and obviously, in in many ways, you're you're best known as a travel writer, I guess, there's a sense in which you're you're talking about how to be awake, how to which is very it's very much at the heart of of Buddhist meditation.

对吧？

Right?

就是要更仔细地观察，活在当下。

It's it's it's to look more carefully to be awake in this moment.

我记得你曾谈到彼得·马修森的伟大著作《雪豹》，你为那本书写了一篇精彩的序言，我最近刚读过，你提到他某种程度上是在教我们如何观察。

And and I remember when you when you talked about Peter Matheson's great book, the snow leopard, which which you wrote a wonderful introduction to that I read recently, you talk about how he's in a way teaching us to be observant.

你能谈谈旅行如何作为一种方式，让我们保持清醒、睁开双眼吗？

Can can you talk about that sense of of travel as a way to to be awake, to open your eyes?

你曾经说过：‘只要一踏上旅途，我的眼睛就睁开了，心也随之敞开。’

You you said once, as as soon as I'm on the road, my eyes are open and with them my heart.

是的。

Yes.

嗯，在日常生活中，我就像梦游一样度过每一天。

Well, I feel in the normal course of life, I'm I'm sleepwalking through life.

正如你所听到的，当我描述我的日常时，我醒来后，基本能预知或希望、认为自己知道这一天会怎样——我需要高效，但这却让我在各种方式上对世界视而不见、充耳不闻。

And as you can tell when I describe my routine, I wake up and I pretty much know or hope and think I know how the day is going to be, which I need to be productive, but is which is keeping me blinded and screened from the world in all kinds of ways.

可悲的是，如果我在加州看望母亲时，像平时那样走在街上，一个无家可归的人向我伸出手，我会匆匆走过，因为我得在三点前赶到某个地方，不能耽搁。

And the sad truth is that if I'm visiting my mother in California and I walk down the street when I'm in my regular life and a homeless person extends his hand towards me, I'll hurry past because I have somewhere I have to be at 03:00 and I can't dully dally.

但一旦我身处海地或印度的街头——换句话说，当我度假旅行时，我就没有任何束缚，那种感觉完全不同。

As soon as I'm on the streets of Haiti or India, so to speak, on holiday traveling, I have no commitments, is a feeling.

我没有日程安排，只是沿着那条路走着，有人朝我伸出手。

I have no schedule and I walk along that road and somebody comes up to me with a hand extended.

这时，我会试着关注那个人。

Now I'll try to attend to that person.

我会试着与他交谈。

I'll try to engage with him in conversation.

我会真的停下来想一想，你知道，我能做些什么？

I'll actually stop to think, you know, what can I do?

他的人生究竟发生了什么？

What's going on in his life?

你知道，这是一次互动，也许我不该就这样睡过去。

You know, this is an interaction that maybe I shouldn't just sleep past.

我真的很喜欢你刚才说得特别好，旅行能立刻把我所有的感官都调到开启状态。

I do love the fact that, as you perfectly put it, travel instantly puts the setting on all my senses to on.

事实上，为了在日常生活中正常运作，其他时候这些感官往往得关闭或静音。

Really, to function in the regular world the rest of the time, they often have to be off or on mute.

突然间，我对世界完全敞开了，因此能从世界中获得更多，我希望自己能成为一个比平时更专注的人。

Suddenly, I'm wide open to the world and therefore getting much more out of the world, I hope a more attentive person than I would be otherwise.

我刚刚在想，我的意思是，回到我刚才忘了说的一件事，关于我们如何度过一天、如何投资自己的时间，‘投资’这个词用得再贴切不过了。

I was just thinking, I mean, just to to go back to something I forgot to say a minute ago before we get on to travel, in terms of how one spends one's day and and how one invests one's time, which is the perfect verb.

我记得几年前，我去做了年度体检，医生看了看我的血液检测结果。

I I remember some years ago, I went for my yearly checkup with my doctor, and he looked at my blood test results.

他说，从大多数方面看，你看起来还不错，但你毕竟不再年轻了。

He said, you seem fine in most ways, but you're not getting any younger.

所以你每天必须进行三十分钟的高强度有氧运动。

So you have to do thirty minutes of intense cardiovascular activity every day.

他刚说完，我就立刻报名了当地的健身俱乐部，从那以后，我几乎每天都能记得完成这三十分钟的锻炼。

The minute he said that, of course, I signed up at the local health club and really pretty much every day I can remember since I've put in my thirty minutes of exercise.

后来，我回到日本，和一位非常睿智、沉稳的朋友聊天。

And later, I was back here in Japan, I was talking to a very wise, calm friend.

他说，你看。

He said, Look.

你整天忙着回邮件、四处旅行、处理工作。

You spend all your time answering emails and traveling around and doing your job.

你有没有想过每天在房间里安静地坐二十分钟，不碰任何电子设备？

Have you never thought of just sitting quietly for twenty minutes every day in your room without your devices?

我说，这怎么可能。

I said, No way.

我做不到。

I can't.

我没时间。

I don't have time.

后来，我意识到这个回答多么愚蠢且短视，因为它简直就像我说：没时间吃药。

And later, I realized what a silly and shortsighted answer that was because it was really like my saying, don't have time to take my medicine.

我没时间看医生，也没时间快乐。

I don't have time to see the doctor, and I don't have time to be happy.

如果我每天都能挤出三十分钟——其实算上往返差不多一小时——去健身俱乐部，那我肯定也能挤出时间来照顾情感健康俱乐部或心理健康俱乐部，而那才是真正更重要的。

And if I can make the time thirty minutes or really it's an hour and all, to go to the health club every day, surely I can make enough time for the, that's it, where the emotional health club or the mental health club, which is, you know, much more essential.

因为如果我的身体强壮但心灵虚弱，我真的很危险。

Because if my body is strong but my mind is weak, I'm really in trouble.

如果我的身体虚弱但心灵强大，这也不算理想，但至少最重要的部分还在正常运作。

If my body is weak and my mind is strong, that's still not ideal but, you know, at least the most important part there is is is functioning.

所以我突然意识到，像我们许多人一样，我陷入了这种愚蠢的双重标准：我关注自己吃进肚子里的东西，却忽视了注入心灵的东西。

So I suddenly realized like many of us perhaps, I I got myself into this silly double standard where I was paying attention to what I put in my stomach and not in what I put into my soul.

我当时确保我的身体部位运转良好，却根本没有考虑过我的情感和内在部分。

And I was making sure that my body parts were working well and not really thinking about my emotional and inner parts.

这正体现了我们之前谈到的外在导向。

It speaks to the externalism that we were speaking about.

转向外在事物非常容易，而我们确实也需要这样做，但在这个过程中，我们很容易忘记什么才是真正重要的。

It's so easy to turn to the externals, which we need to do, but in the process to forget what really is essential.

我基本上就是在说，这就像只是给汽车重新喷漆，却不修理引擎。

I'm basically just saying the same thing about repainting the car instead of fixing the engine.

但我认为，在日常实际生活中，我们大多数人其实都能、也确实会调整自己的习惯，以确保不忽视最重要的事情。

But I think in a practical everyday sense, most of us can and probably do remake our habits accordingly to make sure we're not missing out on the most important stuff.

你刚才说的一些内容触及了如何设计一种适合自己的生活方式这个根本问题。

Some of what you were just saying gets at this whole question of how to design a life that suits ourselves.

我想，在2008年或2009年左右，我被时间狠狠打击了一番，之后就开始反复思考这个问题。

And I I thought about this a lot after I guess it was 2008, 2009, and I'd been whacked by time.

然后我去了另一家公司待了一段时间，但我非常讨厌那里。

And then I went to another company for a while that I hated.

我当时正在帮我的朋友盖伊·斯皮尔写他的自传和回忆录，他是一名对冲基金经理，我协助他完成这本书。

And I was working with my friend Guy Spear on his autobiography, his memoir, he's a hedge fund manager, and I was helping him write that.

他做的一件事是搬到了苏黎世，因为他曾深陷纽约对冲基金世界中销售、贪婪和竞争的漩涡之中。

And part of what he had done was he had moved to Zurich, having been caught up in this kind of vortex of selling and greed and all of that and competition in the hedge fund world in New York.

他通过搬到密苏里州一个虽然平淡却非常宜人的郊区，彻底重启了自己的人生。

And he'd really rebooted his entire life by moving to a kind of slightly bland but very pleasant suburb of Missouri.

这让我深深思考如何设计一种人生。

And this really got me thinking a lot about how to design a life.

当我从伦敦搬回纽约时，我认真思考过：我会住进比在伦敦时更朴素的家，但也不会再被那些开着玛莎拉蒂、法拉利的人包围。

And then when I moved from London back to New York, I really thought very carefully about, well, so I'm I'm gonna live in a more modest home than I lived in in London, but I'm not gonna be surrounded by people with their Maseratis and their Ferraris and stuff.

因为我在伦敦贝尔格莱维亚区居住时，住的是《时代》杂志提到的豪宅。

Because I was living in Belgravia in London on Time Magazine's Dime.

当那种生活不再属于我时，我不得不认真思考如何构建自己的人生。

And once that was no longer available to me, I really had to think about how to structure a life.

在我看来，让你开始思考如何构建自己人生的关键事件，似乎就是1990年左右发生在你家圣巴巴拉住宅的大火，那场火把你的房子烧得一干二净。

And it feels to me like part of the thing that got you to think about how to structure your own life was this seminal event that happened back, I guess, in about 1990, right, where there was a fire at your family home in Santa Barbara that burned your house to the ground.

我想深入谈谈这件事，因为我觉得它触及了我们想探讨的许多问题——如何构建一种真正有价值、真正富足的人生。

And I wanted to talk about that in some depth because I think I think it gets at a lot of these issues that we wanna discuss about how to construct a a life that's truly valuable, that's truly abundant.

但你能先告诉我们当时究竟发生了什么，以及这件事如何成为你看待人生的一个决定性转折点吗？

But if you could start by just telling us what actually happened and how this became a really defining formative event in the way you view your life.

谢谢，威廉，你又一次问出了我一直在思考的问题。

Well, thank I mean, again and again, William, you've asked exactly the question that has been coming up in my mind.

就好像我们完全同步，甚至心有灵犀一样。

It's as if we're sort of absolutely working in sync or telepathically.

在回答这个深刻的问题之前，我想先说两点。

And just before I address the power, two things.

‘设计人生’这个说法真美，它让我想到，我们总是花大量精力去考虑如何布置房屋、建造房屋——这当然很重要，但更重要的是，我们该如何布置和构建自己的人生。

Designing a life is such a beautiful phrase, it reminds me that we put so much attention into how we'll furnish a house and how we'll make a house and which is we need to do, but even more essential is how will we furnish and and make our lives.

当盖伊·斯皮尔在播客上邀请你时，那场对话是我听过的最美好、最有人情味的对话之一。

And when Guy Spier hosted you on his post podcast, it was one of the most lovely because humane conversations I've ever had.

我从中学到了很多关于投资的知识，但学到的关于友谊与慷慨的东西甚至更多。

And I I I learned so much about investing from it, but I learned even more about about friendship and generosity.

任何没有听过你做他播客嘉宾的人

Any anyone who's

正在听这个的人

listening to this

没有听过你做他播客嘉宾的人。

who hasn't heard you be a guest on his podcast.

你愿意听，真是太贴心了，因为我知道你对投资世界几乎没什么兴趣。

Well, it's kind of you to listen because I know how little interest you must have in the world of investing.

所以，你能听，这真是莫大的荣幸。

So take that as a great honor that you listen.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

我对投资世界并没有太大兴趣，但我对投资者世界非常感兴趣，因为他们都是智慧的人。

I don't have a huge interest in the world of investment, but I have a huge interest in the world of investors because they're wise people.

是的。

Yeah.

他们找到了如何生活的方式，不仅仅是从金钱的角度，而是通过自己的努力，而非偶然或愚蠢，才达到了今天的成就。

And they figured out how to live, not just in a monetary sense, but they've got to where they are, not by chance and not by foolishness.

我认为他们有很多值得分享的经验，而你的书正是关于这些的。

And I think they have a lot to offer, and that's what your book is about.

所以，关于那场大火，我当时坐在加利福尼亚山丘上的家中，看到远处一道橙色的火光划过山坡。

So, yeah, in terms of the fire, I was sitting in my family house in the hills of California, and I saw this distant knife of orange cutting through a hillside.

我下楼去给消防部门打电话。

I went downstairs to, call the fire department.

当我再次上楼时，仅仅五分钟之后，我们的房子四周已被高达70英尺、五层楼高的火焰包围。

Then when I came upstairs again, five minutes later, literally, our house was encircled by 70 foot flames, five stories high on all sides.

于是我抱起我母亲的猫，跳上车试图逃生，结果却被困在山路上三个小时，就在我们家正下方，幸亏一位好心人开着一辆水车前来帮忙，却也因火势被困，他用一根小水管对准每一波逼近的火舌，最终救了我们所有人。

So I grabbed my mother's cat, jumped into a car to try to escape, and then I was stuck on the mountain road for three hours underneath our house, saved only by a good Samaritan who had driven up with a water truck to be of assistance and then found himself stuck and and saved us all by pointing with a little hose water at every roar of fire that approached us.

那是当时加州历史上最严重的一场大火，而它就发生在离我们家不远的路上。

It was the worst fire in California history at the time, and it's broken about just up the road from us.

所以，当然，这是一次巨大的震撼。

So, of course, it was a shock.

在我这里，我失去了世界上所有的东西——我未来八年写作的所有手写笔记，可能还有我接下来的三本书；在我父母那里，他们六十年来的所有照片和纪念品、珍藏品都没了。

We lost every last thing in the world, in my case, all my handwritten notes for my next eight years of writing, probably my next three books, in my parents' case, all their photos and mementos, their keepsakes from sixty years.

但回过头来看，有趣的是，几个月后，当适应了这种境况，保险公司来找我们说：‘我们有一些钱，你们可以替换掉你们的物品。’这让我真正意识到，我其实并不需要我积累的90%的书、衣服和家具。

But the interesting thing looking back on it was that months later, after adjusting to circumstances, when the insurance company came along and said, Well, we have some money and you can replace your goods, Of course, that really did make me understand I didn't need 90% of the books and clothes and furniture I'd accumulated.

我可以活得更加简单，而这正是我一直以来想要的生活方式。

I could live much more likely, which is really the way I'd always wanted to live.

我给我在纽约或伦敦的编辑打了电话——当时我是在伦敦——我说：‘那些我之前答应你的书，我没法再提供了，因为我的所有笔记都没了。’

I I called up my editor in New York or in London, actually, at the time, and I said, you know, all those books I was promising you, I can't offer them to you because all my notes have gone.

因为他是个善良的人，他安慰了我一阵子。

And because he's a kind man, he commiserated for a while.

但因为他是个睿智的人，他说：‘实际上，没有笔记可能会让你更深入地从内心、记忆和想象力中解放出来，让你的写作更加纯粹。’

But because he's a wise man, he said, actually, you know, not having notes may liberate you through writing much more deeply from your heart and from your memory, from imagination.

由于在加州失去了物理上的家，我突然开始想：也许我应该多花点时间在真正感觉像我故乡的地方——那就是日本。

And then lacking a physical home in California, I suddenly began to think, well, maybe I should spend more time in the place that really feels like my true home, which is Japan.

现在，我几乎一直待在这里。

And now I'm pretty much here all the time.

因此，在许多方面，这场看似灾难的事件为我打开了许多原本可能长期甚至永远关闭的门和窗。

And so in so many ways, that seeming catastrophe opened doors and windows that might otherwise have been closed for a long time, perhaps forever.

在疫情期间，我经常思考这个问题，因为疫情关闭了太多门，夺走了许多人的生活，但与此同时，它也为我打开了一些微小的可能性之窗——这些机会是我过去可能永远都看不到的，并促使我以比从前更好的方式生活。

And I was thinking about it a lot during the pandemic because the pandemic was closing so many doors and so many lives, but at the same time it was opening little windows of possibility, at least for me, that otherwise I might never have glimpsed and moving me to to live in better ways than I had been beforehand.

我想，关于这场火灾，另一个特别有趣的地方，尤其考虑到我们的联系，是当我被困在那儿整整三个小时，浓烟如此猛烈，以至于消防车无法靠近我，我能听到头顶上有直升机，但它们看不到我，我也看不到它们。

And I suppose the one other interesting thing about the fire especially given our connection is that as soon as you know I stuck there for three hours and smoke was so intense that no fire truck could come up and make contact with me and I could hear helicopters above but they couldn't see me and I couldn't see them.

终于，在三个小时后，一辆消防车赶来，告诉我可以安全驾车离开了。

Finally after three hours a fire truck came up and told me it was safe to drive down.

于是我驾车驶下山，眼前所见让我联想到越南战争的场景：房屋四处爆炸，汽车冒着浓烟，四周火光冲天。

So I drove down through what looked like what I associated with scenes from the Vietnam War, you know, houses exploding all over the place, cars smoldering, fires on every side of me.

我去了市中心，买了一把牙刷——那是我当时拥有的唯一东西。

And I went downtown and I bought a toothbrush, which was the only thing I had in the world at that point.

然后，我在朋友的地板上睡下了。

And then I went to sleep on a friend's floor.

但在睡觉前，因为当时我的工作部分是为《时代》杂志工作，我问朋友是否可以借用他的电脑，并撰写了一篇报道。

But before I went to sleep, because my job then was partly working for Time Magazine, I asked my friend if I could use his computer, and I filed a report.

所以在逃离火灾三个小时后，我为这场重大新闻事件撰写了一篇报道，而我正是这场事件的亲历者。

So three hours after escaping the fire, I filed a report on this major news event for which I'd had a front seat view.

我在短文的结尾引用了一首在日本接触到的诗，那首诗源自十七世纪，是一首俳句，只写道：我的房子烧毁了。

And I ended my little piece with a poem that I picked up in Japan because I'd begun spending time there from the seventeenth century, a haiku, which just said, my house burnt down.

如今，我更能看清那升起的明月。

I can now see better the rising moon.

就在失去世间一切的当晚，我内心深处某种比我自己更智慧的东西意识到，并非一切皆已失去。

So the very night when I lost everything in the world, something in me, probably wiser than I am, realized not everything was lost.

某些东西终将获得。

Certain things would be gained.

而我真正获得的最主要的东西，是一种对优先事项的清晰认知。

And, actually, the main thing I would gain was a sense of priorities.

就在那个晚上，我反复思考着那首诗。

You know, literally that night, I thought about that poem.

我失去了一切。

I've lost everything.

我现在真正看清了什么才是重要的。

I can now really see what's important.

是的。

Yeah.

我昨天读了那篇文章。

I I read that article yesterday.

它非常优美，而且依然栩栩如生。

It was it was beautiful and still incredibly vivid.

让我感到震撼的是，在我最近几周读过的你写的六本书中，你都提到了那场大火。

And it was striking to me that I think in probably all six of the books of yours that I've read in recent weeks, you mentioned the fire.

你一次又一次地回到这个主题。

You come back to it again and again.

我的意思是，这对你来说是一个极其深刻的成长经历。

I mean, it's such a it's such a profound formative episode for you.

你在《秋光》中写过，你说：‘在我爬到我们家的那天，当生活中的一切都被烧成废墟时，我意识到，所有可以被替代的东西——家具、衣服、书籍——从本质上讲都是无价值的。'

And one thing you wrote in Autumn Light, you said you said, I saw that as I climbed all the way up to our house the day after everything in our lives was reduced to rubble, I saw that everything that could be replaced, furniture, clothes, books, was by definition worthless.

唯一重要的东西，是那些永远失去的东西。

The only things that mattered were the things that were gone forever.

我认为这是一个非常有趣的问题，即当你失去某物后，才会发现它真正有价值。

And I think that's such an interesting question, this whole issue of what you discover has value after it's gone.

这正是我们在温哥华讨论过的话题，当时你主持了一场引人入胜的讨论，问了大家一些问题，其中一个问题是：如果你只有十分钟时间从家里抢救出一样东西，你会救什么？

And and this is something we talked about in Vancouver where you led fascinating session where you asked people various questions, one of which was, if you had, I think, ten minutes to save anything from your home, what would you save?

我想请你再多谈谈，关于什么才有价值、什么没有价值的这种感受。

And I wonder if you could talk a bit more about that sense of what has value and what doesn't.

到底什么才是真正有价值的？

What does have value?

几年后，当你重建了房子并再次险些遭遇灾难时，你当时带出了什么？

When you had a very near escape a few years later after you rebuilt the house, what did you take out, for example?

自从那场大火之后，我生活上唯一的不同之处——虽然有点不好意思——就是我把所有笔记都存在了银行的保险箱里，因为它们仍然是手写的，在我看来，这是唯一不可或缺的东西。

So the only way I live differently since the fire than before, and this is a bit embarrassing, is I keep all my notes in the safety deposit box in the bank because they're still handwritten, and they seem to me the one indispensable thing.

这并不是因为我靠写作谋生，而是因为我感觉这些笔记就是我的人生。

So it's not because my my I make my living by being a writer, but I more because I feel that's my life.

我的生活就蕴藏在这几卷看似无法辨认的卷轴中。

My life is contained in this this otherwise illegible scrolls.

而且，你知道，我觉得其他人，比如我母亲，可能会把她的照片和珠宝也存放在银行里，这对我来说完全合理。

And, you know, other people I think my mother might have kept her photographs as well as her jewelry in bank, which makes absolute sense to me.

再说一遍，我不认为这是正确的答案，但我认为这是一个非常有价值的问题，这就是为什么我在TED的那场小型分享中提到了它。

Again, I don't think that's the right answer, I think it's a really useful question to ask, which is why I shared it with that little circle at TED.

再次强调，我们其实本能地知道这些道理，但除非我们真正停下来问自己这个问题，否则就会被生活的匆忙裹挟，而生活总会出其不意地给我们惊喜。

Just again, that sense that we know things intuitively, but unless we actually stop to ask ourselves that, we get caught up in the rush and then life catches us by surprise because it always will.

你知道，你对我的书的阅读细致程度，恐怕是任何人都无法相比的。

You know, you've you've read my books more closely than anyone I can imagine.

我深受感动，因为这无疑是最高的赞美，也是一种莫大的慷慨。

And I'm so touched because that's the ultimate sort of compliment and act of generosity.

你是第一个注意到我的书里总是一再回到那场大火的人，这既是隐喻——象征着一个正在燃烧的世界，许多不确定性正被焚毁，也是一种提醒：无论你是谁，你终将面对生命中的这些挑战。

You're the first person who's noticed that they all keep on coming back to that fire, which is partly a metaphor for a world on fire where a lot of uncertainties are being burnt up, but also a way of saying that whoever you are, you're going to face some of these challenges in life.

那可能是台风、洪水、地震，也可能只是一辆汽车从错误的一侧以高速朝你冲来，或是一次糟糕的诊断。

It could be a typhoon or a flood or an earthquake or it could just be a car coming at high speed towards you at the wrong side of the road or a bad diagnosis.

但无论如何，也许这多少反映了我这个年纪的想法，我认为这是一个很有用的练习：如果突然间我只剩下一点时间，我会想用它来做些什么？

But one way or another, and maybe this is my age speaking a little, I think it's use it's a useful exercise to think if suddenly I only had a little time, what would I want to do with it?

或者，如果我的生活突然被颠覆，我会珍惜什么？

Or if suddenly my life were upended, what is it, that I would cherish?

所以我很难直接回答你的问题，但我非常赞赏这个问题，并且觉得，或许这才是我们每个人都应该问自己的问题。

So I can't really answer your question so much as applaud it and say, maybe I feel that that's the question we should all be asking ourselves.

我觉得你关于‘这本就是生活一部分’的这个观点非常引人深思。

I thought it was fascinating on this this question of this just being a part of life.

你在一本书中引用了佛陀的话，说人生就像一座着火的房子。

Know, you you quoted in one of your books the Buddha saying that life is a burning house.

而在其他地方，我想你引用了你另一位偶像——隐士托马斯·默顿的话，说：是的。

Then elsewhere, I think you quoted another hero of yours, Thomas Merton, another another hermit, saying Yeah.

一切终将化为灰烬。

Everything must burn.

你还提到，我认为是‘秋日之光’中提到，你附近那座美丽的城市京都的皇室建筑群，已经重建了十四次。

And then you mentioned, I think, autumn light that the imperial compound in the gorgeous city of Kyoto near you has had to be rebuilt 14 times.

所以这不是一种世界脆弱而永恒的感觉。

So it's not this this sense that the world is vulnerable and permanent.

这并不是一个偶然击中你的故障。

This is not a glitch that just you happen to get hit by this.

这是我们世界的一个特征。

This is a feature of our world.

太美了。

Beautiful.

正是如此。

Exactly.

在整个疫情期间，我每隔几周就往返于日本和加利福尼亚之间。

And right all the way through the pandemic, I was going back and forth every few weeks between Japan and California.

我认为我注意到的，与其说是其他事情，不如说是两种文化的差异：一种是拥有1400年历史的古老而成熟的文明，另一种则相对年轻，在某种程度上着眼于未来、可能性和即将发生的事，却缺乏深厚的历史积淀——正如你所说，现实并非异常、侮辱或例外。

I think what I was noticing as much as anything was the difference between a very old and seasoned culture that's been around fourteen hundred years and a rather young one that's in some ways rooted in the future tense and possibility and what's going to happen but doesn't have a deep past because, just as you said, reality is not an aberration or an insult or an exception.

因此，在整个疫情期间，日本的一切都一如既往地正常进行。

And so everything in Japan throughout the pandemic was continuing exactly as normal.

孩子们照常上学，人们去上班，火车和电梯一如既往地拥挤。

Kids were going to school, people were going to the office, trains and elevators were as crowded as they always have been.

政府宣布了紧急状态，但一切却显得异常，仿佛在说：生活本来就是一种紧急状态。

The government announced a state of emergency and yet everything was abnormal as if to say life as it always is is a state of emergency.

直到今天，我周围大约70%的日本人仍然戴着口罩，他们确实采取了所有预防措施。

To this day, probably 70% of the people around me in Japan are masked, they're certainly taking all the precautions.

但他们并没有对现实生活感到震惊，也没有想：天啊，发生什么事了？

But they weren't shocked by real life and they weren't thinking, woah, what's happened?

你知道，我们精心规划的美好人生突然被颠覆，因为他们早已习惯战争、地震，以及正如你所说，几个世纪以来反复出现的火灾和瘟疫。

You know, the beautiful lives we planned are suddenly being upended because they're used to wars and earthquakes and, as you said, fire and and and plague through many centuries now.

当我回到加州时，人们真的感到震惊。

And when I went back to California, there was a real sense of shock.

发生什么事了？

What's happened?

这可不是我们预期的样子。

This isn't what we expected.

大量的恐慌和愤怒。

A lot of panic and a lot of rage.

从大阪机场飞往洛杉矶，空中飞行只有九个小时，但却是从一个几乎绝对平静的地方，飞向一个充满恐怖、绝望和恐慌的地方。

And flying from Osaka Airport to Los Angeles only nine hours in air, but it was leaving a place of almost absolute calm to a place of absolute terror and despair and panic.

这让我深刻意识到，我们如何与现实相处，将决定我们如何生活，现实不能被当作震惊或异常来看待。

And it really hit me that how we work with reality is going to it's really how that's going to determine how we we live our lives and that reality can't be taken as a shock or as as an aberration.

我顺便说一句，你对我的作品如此了解，实在让我感到尴尬——我刚刚寄给出版商的一本书，差不多已经完成，全书讲述的正是我与僧侣们进行的百次静修，而火焰始终环绕着他们的修道院。

I will also say parenthetically, it's embarrassing how well you know my my work because a book I'm just sending to the publishers now, more or less completed, is entirely about my 100 retreats with the monks and fire, which is always encircling their monastery too.

关于火，以及你提到的托马斯·默顿，他有一段精彩的文字，收录在《约拿的印记》一书的结尾，名为《守夜之火》：在肯塔基州盖塞曼尼修道院的一个晚上，他的职责是在修士们入睡后，手持手电筒在黑暗中巡视，确保没有火灾，因为修道院是木结构建筑，极易着火。

Then the haunting thing about fire and Thomas Merton whom you mentioned, he has this wonderful passage called fire watch at the end of his book, the sign of Jonas, in which his duty one evening in the monastery of Gethsemane in Kentucky is to walk around in the dark while the monks are sleeping to make sure there's no fire because it's a wooden building and it's very susceptible to fire.

于是他在七月四日独立日的前夜，于绝对的黑暗中，一间房一间房地巡查，经过存放禁书的房间——其中一些书可能正是他写的，至少他都读过；经过锅炉房；经过所有地方。

So he's going from room to room to room with his flashlight in the absolute dark on the eve of Independence Day, July 4, through the room where all the banned books are kept, some of which he's probably written, certainly he's read, through the furnace room, through all the places.

他唯一的责任是保护他的兄弟们，确保没有余烬和火星。

And his his one obligation is to protect his brothers by ensuring there are no embers and sparks.

但与此同时，在内心深处，他知道自己的另一项责任是让内心的火焰持续燃烧。

But at the same time, at an inner level, he knows his one obligation is to keep the fires alive inside himself.

作为僧人，他的职责只是燃烧，即怀着虔诚、顺从与奉献之心。

His job as a monk is only to be aflame, as it were, to be burning with devotion and obedience and surrender.

因此，这是一件非常有趣的事：你试图应对世间的无常，但或许你唯一能带入其中的，就是你内心的火焰，这一点佛陀也一定深有体会。

So it's this fascinating thing whereby you're trying to deal with the impermanence in the world, but perhaps the only thing you have to bring into it is the fire within you, which is something that the Buddha too surely understood.

但这已经离题太远了，只是你的问题如此深刻，给了我很多切入的思路。

But that's a that's a long digression, but your questions are so rich that giving me lots of entry points.

我们短暂休息一下，听听今天赞助商的话。

Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

当你经营一家小企业时，雇佣对的人至关重要。

When you're running a small business, hiring the right person can make all the difference.

合适的员工能提升你的团队，提高生产力，将你的业务推向新的高度。

The right hire can elevate your team, boost your productivity and take your business to the next level.

但找到这样的人本身可能就像一份全职工作。

But finding that person can feel like a full time job in itself.

这就是LinkedIn职位发挥作用的地方。

That's where LinkedIn jobs comes in.

他们的新AI助手通过匹配真正符合你需求的顶尖候选人，消除了招聘中的猜测成分。

Their new AI assistant takes the guesswork out of hiring by matching you with top candidates who actually fit what you're looking for.

它不再让你翻阅大量简历，而是根据你的标准筛选申请者，并突出显示最匹配的人选，帮你节省数小时时间，在合适的人选出现时快速行动。

Instead of sifting through piles of resumes, it filters applicants based on your criteria and highlights the best matches, saving you hours and helping you move fast when the right person comes along.

最棒的是，这些优秀的候选人已经都在LinkedIn上。

The best part is that those great candidates are already on LinkedIn.

事实上，通过LinkedIn招聘的员工，至少留任一年的可能性比通过主要竞争对手招聘的员工高出30%。

In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor.

一次就招对人。

Hire right the first time.

免费发布职位至 linkedin.com/studybill，然后推广职位以使用LinkedIn的新AI助手，更轻松快捷地找到顶尖候选人。

Post your job for free at linkedin.com/studybill then promote it to use LinkedIn jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates.

免费发布职位请访问 linkedin.com/studybill。

That's linkedin.com/studybill to post your job for free.

适用条款和条件。

Terms and conditions apply.

亿万富翁投资者通常不会把资金存放在高收益储蓄账户中。

Billion dollar investors don't typically park their cash in high yield savings accounts.

相反，他们常常使用一种为机构投资者设计的顶级被动收入策略——私人信贷。

Instead, they often use one of the premier passive income strategies for institutional investors, private credit.

如今，得益于Fundrise收益基金，同样的被动收入策略也向所有规模的投资者开放了。

Now the same passive income strategy is available to investors of all sizes, thanks to the Fundrise income fund,

这

which

该基金已吸引超过6亿美元投资，分配收益率为7.97%。

has more than $600,000,000 invested and a 7.97% distribution rate.

随着传统储蓄利率下滑，私人信贷在近几年成长为万亿美元级别的资产类别也就不足为奇了。

With traditional savings yields falling, it's no wonder private credit has grown to be a trillion dollar asset class in the last few years.

访问 fundrise.com/wsb，只需几分钟即可投资Fundrise收益基金。

Visit fundrise.com/wsb to invest in the Fundrise Income Fund in just minutes.

该基金2025年的总回报率为8%，自成立以来的平均年总回报率为7.8%。

The fund's total return in 2025 was 8% and the average annual total return since inception is 7.8%.

过往表现并不保证未来结果。

Past performance does not guarantee future results.

当前分配收益率截至2025年1月20日12:30。

Current distribution rate as of twelvethirty onetwenty twenty five.

投资前请仔细考虑投资材料，包括目标、风险、费用和开支。

Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses.

更多信息可在fundrise.com/income的收益基金招募说明书中找到。

This and other information can be found in the income funds prospectus at fundraise.com/income.

这是一则付费广告。

This is a paid advertisement.

2026年，你终于要行动了。

2026 is the year you finally do it.

这一年，你不再只是空想，而是真正将它变为现实。

The year you stop sitting on that idea and actually turn it into something real.

我们都有自认为本可以更出色的技能、想法和副业，但梦想与行动之间的差距，就在于迈出第一步。

We all have skills, ideas, and side projects we know could be more, but the difference between dreaming and doing is taking that first step.

Shopify 为您提供在线和线下销售所需的一切。

Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person.

数百万企业家，包括我自己，已经迈出了这一步，从大型知名品牌转变为刚刚起步的初创创始人。

Millions of entrepreneurs, including myself, have already taken this leap from massive household brands to first time founders just getting started.

使用 Shopify，打造您的梦想店铺非常简单。

With Shopify, building your dream store is simple.

您可以从数百种精美的模板中选择，并自定义以匹配您的品牌。

You can choose from hundreds of beautiful templates and customize them to match your brand.

设置也非常快速，内置的 AI 工具可以撰写产品描述，甚至帮助编辑产品图片。

Setup is fast too, with built in AI tools that write product descriptions and even help edit product photos.

随着您的业务成长，Shopify 也会与您一同成长，帮助您通过一个仪表板处理更多订单并拓展新市场。

And as you grow, Shopify grows with you, helping you handle more orders and expand into new markets all from one dashboard.

在 2026 年，别再等待，立即用 Shopify 开始销售。

In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify.

注册每月 1 美元的试用版，今天就前往 shopify.com/wsb 开始销售吧。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/wsb.

前往 shopify.com/wsb。

Go to shopify.com/wsb.

就是 shopify.com/wsb。

That's shopify.com/wsb.

今年伊始，让 Shopify 伴你聆听第一声新机。

Hear your first this new year with Shopify by your side.

好的。

All right.

回到节目。

Back to the show.

嗯，这挺有意思的。

Well, it's funny.

关于无常这个话题，听起来似乎很玄妙，甚至有些阴暗，但实际上它在投资领域中也至关重要。

This whole issue of impermanence, seems like this kind of esoteric and in some way kind of dark issue, but actually it's absolutely central even in the world of investing.

我在书中写了一章，名为《一切皆变》，开篇引用了《禅者的初心》作者铃木俊隆的话，他谈的正是这一点——你最好习惯一切都在变化的事实，因为这可以说是每个存在的基本真理。

And I wrote a chapter called Everything Changes in my book that begins with a quote from the author of Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, Shunryu Suzuki, who talks about exactly this, this sense of, you better get used to the fact that everything changes because it's kind of the I I mean, he said that that everything changes is the basic truth for each existence.

没有人能否认这个真理，佛教的所有教义都浓缩于其中。

No one can deny this truth, all the teaching of Buddhism is condensed within it.

然后他说，如果我们不能接受一切都在变化这一教义，我们就无法保持平静。

And then he said, if we cannot accept this teaching that everything changes, we cannot be in composure.

因此，这位著名的亿万富翁投资者霍华德·马克斯对此非常重视，因为他开始研究禅宗佛教，并说：等等，等等。

And so this is something that this famous multibillionaire investor, Howard Marx, took really seriously because he starts studying Zen Buddhism, and he says, well, wait a second.

如果一切都是无常的，我就必须接受事物会变化的事实，并适应这个变化的现实。

If everything is impermanent, I have to accept the fact that things are gonna change, and I have to accommodate myself to a changing reality.

我不能欺骗自己，以为自己能预测并控制未来。

I can't just fool myself into thinking that I can predict the future and control it.

因此，霍华德告诉我其中一件事是：既然我无法预测未来，我就只能努力为不确定的未来做好准备。

And so one of the things Howard said to me is if I can't predict the future, I'm gonna just try to prepare for an uncertain future.

这让我感到好奇，这个位于佛教核心的深刻哲学理念，实际上渗透到了我们生活的每一个领域。

And so it's curious to me that this very profound philosophical idea at the heart of Buddhism, actually, it radiates into every area of our life.

因为作为一名投资者，比如，你的一件事就是说：好吧。

Because as an investor, for example, one of the things you do is you say, well, okay.

目前路况结冰了。

So the conditions are icy at the moment.

我得小心驾驶。

I better drive carefully.

我必须适应现实的本来面目。

I have to accommodate myself to reality as it is.

如果每个人都承担了过多风险，行为都十分鲁莽，我必须正视现实并做出调整。

If everyone is taking too much risk and they're all being reckless, I better look reality as it is and adjust to that reality.

因此，我觉得无常这个观念实际上影响着我们所做的一切，影响着我们生活的方方面面。

And so I sort of think this idea of impermanence actually just affects everything we do, way the the the way we live in every area of our lives.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

我的意思是，我觉得在你的书里或者某个地方，约翰·坦普尔顿爵士也谈到了长期思维，作为投资者，不要被潮流和变化所左右，因为唯一能胜出的方式就是意识到一切终将过去。

Mean, I think in your book or somewhere, sir John Templeton talks about long term thinking too, not being swayed by the winds of fashion and change if you're an investor because the only way to come out ahead is to realize that everything is going to pass.

正如你所说，我认为这确实适用于所有伟大的传统。

As you say, I think that's so true to every great tradition.

我不是禅宗学生，不像霍华德·马克斯那样，但你知道，佛陀的形象常常是安详地端坐于烈火之中。

I'm not a Zen student, unlike Howard Marks, but, you know, the image of the Buddha often is sitting absolutely calm in the midst of flames.

我听说，教皇方济各其实也是如此。

And I've heard that, you know, Pope Francis, exactly the same thing really.

当他祈祷时，他并不为生命中的诸多问题和困惑寻求答案。

When he prays, he doesn't pray for an answer to life's many questions and problems.

他祈求的是在没有答案的世界中活下去的力量与信心。

He prays for the strength and confidence to live in a world without answers.

他祈求的是，即使天庭不赐下答案，也能保持坚强。

He prays for the ability to be strong even there are no answers coming from the heavens.

我认为，你非常出色地——每当我有朋友正在受苦、生病、抑郁、忧虑或恐惧时，我会与他们分享的唯一良药就是《禅心·初学者的心》。

And I think what you wonderfully you know, whenever I have a friend who's suffering, who's sick or who's depressed or worried or scared, the one medicine I will share with that friend is Zen Mind Beginner's Mind.

我的意思是，这本书充满了那种深邃的智慧，并以绝对清晰的方式传达出来。

I mean, because it's just full of that that bottomless wisdom delivered with absolute clarity.

它就像一股山间溪流，奔流不息。

It runs like a sort of mountain mountain stream.

我认为这是因为在日本，我们有时会听到这样一句话：生活就是在充满悲伤的世界中愉快地参与其中。

And I think it's because that we hear sometimes in Japan this phrase that life is about joyful participation in a world of sorrows.

这是一个非常佛教的理念，即痛苦始终存在，疾病、衰老和死亡是每个人生命的一部分，但这些都不会剥夺奇迹、希望和喜悦。

So it's a very Buddhist idea, the notion that suffering is always going to be there sickness, old age, and death are part of every life, but none of that precludes wonder, hope, and joy.

我得说，威廉，这可能会让你尴尬，因为我们只短暂见过两次，但你曾经在《时代》杂志担任我的编辑时，我们共事过一段时间。

You know, I must say I'll embarrass you here, William, because we've only met twice briefly, but we worked together for a little while when you were my editor at Time.

二十年过去了，我仍然记得，我写了一篇小书评，从日本——或者我想是伦敦，你当时在那里——寄了出去，你建议我做一些修改。

And twenty years on, I still remember I wrote a little book review, sent it off from here in Japan or I think London where you were, and you said you've brought a suggestion.

你提出了一个建议。

You made a suggestion.

你是否愿意在这篇文章中加入一句弥尔顿的话？

Would you like to add to this piece a sentence from Milton?

心灵本身就是一个地方，它可以将地狱变为天堂，或将天堂变为地狱。

The mind is a place in itself can make a hell of heaven or a heaven of hell.

这是一句深刻而美妙的话。

And it's such a deep and and and beautiful sentence.

我不但把这句话用在了那篇文章里，它此后一直成为我人生的指引。

And not only did I put it in that piece, it's really remained with me ever since as kind of a guide for life.

你也会得到同样的体会。

And it's the same thing you get.

我记得小时候，我不得不读《哈姆雷特》，里面有一句：没有什么事情是绝对的好或坏，全在于你的想法。

I remember as a kid, I had to read Hamlet and you read, there's nothing good or bad but thinking

是的。

Yeah.

让它变得如此。

Makes it so.

这种感觉就是，幸福并不依赖于外在境遇。

And just this sense that happiness is not dependent on the circumstance.

我曾听一些僧人说过，喜悦的定义是一种满足与自信的感觉，与你的处境毫无关系。

In other words, I've I've heard monks say that the definition of joy is a feeling of of of repletion and confidence that has nothing to do with your circumstances.

你可能正身患癌症，濒临死亡。

You may be dying of cancer.

你的房子可能已经被烧毁了。

Your house may have been burned down.

普京可能正在攻击乌克兰，但你仍然能感受到这个世界最终是有意义和美丽的。

Putin may be attacking Ukraine, but you still have the sense that ultimately there's meaning and beauty in the world.

这种幸福并不是来自突如其来的高潮或片刻的美丽。

And that's not the kind of happiness that comes from a sudden high or a moment of beauty.

它是一种能够经受住烈火考验的东西。

It's something that can endure through the flames.

你可能知道，我记得几年前我读过一本由马修·里卡德写的很棒的书，他是一位佛教徒，是的。

And you probably know, I remember a few years ago, I read this wonderful book by Matthew Ricard, another Buddhist Yeah.

在书的开篇，他引用了研究人员的发现：如果一个人突然中了彩票，一年后回访时，他的生活实际上并没有比以前更好，因为他搬进了一个让他感到不自在的社区。

And at the outset, he he cites how researchers have found that if somebody suddenly wins the lottery, when you go back to him a year later, his life is actually no better than before because he's moved into a neighborhood where he's not comfortable.

他不认识自己的朋友。

He doesn't know who his friends are.

他所有的时间都花在了律师身上。

He's spending all his times with lawyers.

他被各种义务压得喘不过气。

He's really beset by all these obligations.

如果有人突然在车祸中瘫痪，一年后你去看她，她其实并没有比以前更沮丧。

And if suddenly somebody is suddenly rendered paraplegic in a car accident and you go and see her a year later, she's actually no more depressed than she ever was.

在某些情况下，你知道，她意识到自己的潜力，身边有朋友陪伴，做着原本可能永远都不会去做的事。

And in some cases, you know, realizing her potential and and surrounded by friends and doing things she might never have done otherwise.

这让我们谈到一种外界用来衡量这些事情的外部账本，而我们内心却有一本不同的账本，感受到一套截然不同的价值标准，我们逐渐明白，内心的平静、幸福或喜悦，其实并不取决于生活的境遇。

And it it goes to what we've been saying about this sort of external ledger by which the world sometimes measures these things, an inner account book by which we feel that there's a different set of values, and we come to see how basically our peace of mind or our happiness or joy may not be related to the circumstances of our lives.

我认为，东亚在这方面尤其智慧。

And I think, you know, again, this is I think East Asia is particularly wise about this.

我想可能是孔子或某位中国智者说过这样的话：如果你现在真的很开心，别太过兴奋，因为这不会长久。

And I think it might have been Confucius or one of those wise Chinese people who said something like, if you're really happy right now, don't get overexcited because it's not gonna last.

如果你压力很大，也别太沮丧，因为这也不会长久。

And if you're really stressed, don't get too down because that's not gonna last either.

疫情刚爆发后不久，我的佛教朋友们就会给我发消息，说‘这一切都会过去’。

And again, soon after the pandemic broke out, my Buddhist friends would send me a message just saying this too shall pass.

这是一个基督教的讯息，也是一个普世的讯息，但却是最该听到的。

This is a Christian message and a universal message, but the right thing to hear.

我的天主教修道院朋友在疫情爆发时也发来消息说：记住，缓解焦虑最好的办法就是照顾他人。

And my Catholic friend from the monastery, also when the pandemic broke out, sent a message saying, remember the best cure for anxiety is taking care of others.

这是一件如此简单的事，但当我们感到恐惧、迷失，不知道明天或接下来的许多天会发生什么时，却很容易忘记。

It's such a simple thing but so easy to forget when we're scared and lost and and don't know what's going to happen tomorrow or the next many tomorrows.

只要记住你有需要照顾的人，你就不会陷入脑海中那团纷乱的忧虑之中。

And just remembering that if you have somebody to look after, suddenly you're not caught up in that beehive of worries in your head.

当我从着火的房子里逃出来，在火焰中被困了三个小时后，回过头来看，我认为真正帮助我的是我试图救我母亲的猫。

When I was fleeing the house that was on fire and stuck inside the flames for three hours, in retrospect, I think the thing that really helped me was I was trying save my mother's cat.

所以我所有的注意力都集中在确保这只猫不要停止呼吸，因为如果它死了，我的人生就失去了意义。

So all my concentration was making sure this cat doesn't stop breathing because if she did, my life would not be worth living.

即使我逃出了火海，我母亲也会悲痛欲绝。

Even if I escaped the fire, my mother would be so distraught.

但当我专注于怀中这只能够艰难呼吸的小猫时，我就没有像原本可能那样陷入绝望。

But by concentrating on this little cat who was gasping for breath in my lap, I wasn't sitting there thinking as otherwise I would have been done.

哇。

Wow.

你知道吗，我还能逃出去吗？

You know, am I ever going to get out of this?

那火焰离我只有两英尺远。

That flame came within two feet.

所以，无论是从实际角度还是道德角度，听到这些话我都非常欣慰。我说这些是因为我知道，当我听你和盖伊谈话时，你们谈论的更多是这类事情，而不是股市。

And so just as a very practical thing as well as perhaps a moral thing, I was so glad to hear that from and I say all this because I know when I listen to you and Guy talk, you were talking really about this kind of stuff more than the stock market.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这正是你工作的核心，而且我认为你选择聚焦的投资者，都是那些在思考这些根本问题的人。

And I think that's kind of at the heart of of your work, but I think the investors you chose to spotlight are people who who are thinking about these essential things.

我的意思是，比如霍华德·马克斯。

I mean, well, like Howard Marks.

是的。

Yeah.

他们非常有灵魂，努力探寻什么才是真正幸福、成功且富足的人生。

They're very soulful, and they're trying to figure out what actually constitutes a happy and successful and abundant life.

我认为，当他们赚到足够的钱，买了房子、飞机或其他东西后，就会意识到：这并没有带来满足。

And I I think at a certain point, once they've made enough money and bought the the house or the plane or whatever it is, they're like, well, that didn't do it.

因此，我书中的后记所探讨的正是这样一个观念：如果你没有以某种方式追求内心的平静，那你就会陷入大麻烦。

And so part of what the epilogue of my book is about is really just this sense that if if you're not optimizing in some way for peace of mind, then you're in deep trouble.

因此，任何富足的人生都必须包含内心的平和。

And so part of any rich life has to include equanimity.

所以，你提到的弥尔顿在《失乐园》中的那句话——心灵可以将地狱变为天堂，或将天堂变为地狱——无论原话是怎么说的。

And so I think that idea that you mentioned from Milton from Paradise Lost of the mind can make a heaven of hell or a hell of heaven or whichever way around it is.

我总是记反这句话。

I always get it the wrong way around.

我也总是记错。

I'm I always get it wrong too.

我总是这样。

I I always do.

但我对这个理念贯穿莎士比亚的作品感到着迷。

But I'm I'm fascinated that it runs through Shakespeare.

它也贯穿了爱比克泰德和斯多葛学派。

It runs through Epictetus and the Stoics.

它还贯穿了布莱克，他曾谈到‘心灵铸就的枷锁’。

It runs through Blake who talked about mind forged manacles.

威廉·詹姆斯，我知道你也非常推崇他，他是伟大的哲学家和心理学的先驱，你曾谈到选择一种思想而非另一种。

William James, who I know you're a great fan of too, who's one of the great philosophers and pioneering figure of psychology, you talked about choosing one thought over another.

所以在我看来，当你看到这样一个伟大的真理贯穿多种传统时，你就知道必须认真思考：我该如何将这种内心的平静列为优先事项？

So it just seems to me when you see a great truth like this running through multiple paths, you just know it's wildly important to start thinking about, well, how am I gonna make this a priority, this sense of inner peace?

是的。

Yes.

我认为这也是佛教的核心。

And I think it's the core of Buddhism too.

这正是达赖喇嘛所表达的意思。

It's exactly what the Dalai Lama is saying.

而我喜欢这一点的是，正如你所说，它具有普遍性，并不局限于任何单一宗教或意识形态。

And what I like about that again is it's not as you said, because it's universal, it's not tethered to any single religion or ideology.

而这些宗教往往却把我们划分成‘我们’和‘他们’。

And all those religions often, you know, add us up into us versus them.

正如你所说，这种理念历经三千年，几乎所有认真思考过的人得出了相同的结论。

This is something that, as you say, through three thousand years, almost anybody who ought to think about it has come up with the same conclusion.

你知道，我花了很多时间阅读马可·奥勒留，那位在战场上待了多年的罗马皇帝，他所说的也正是这个道理。

You know, I spent a lot of time still reading Marcus Aurelius, you know, the Roman emperor who was there on the battlefield for however many years, and this is exactly what he was saying too.

我的意思是，我觉得他可能是从爱比克泰德那里学到的，但无论从哪个方向来看，我们得到的都是完全相同的东西。

I mean, I think he might have learned it from Epictetus, but exactly the same thing from every direction that we're we're getting.

多年来你花了很多时间与达赖喇嘛相处，我想你从17岁起就认识他了，那是由于你已故的父亲，你也花了五年时间写了一本关于他的杰出著作《开放之路》，我最近几天一直在重读这本书。

You've spent a lot of time with the Dalai Lama over the years, and I I think you've known him since you were 17 because of your late father, and also spent five years writing a terrific book about him, The Open Road, which I've been rereading over the last few days.

他显然是一个非凡的向导，教会我们如何应对事物总在变化、我们逐渐老去、遭受痛苦、面对死亡、无法预测未来这些事实。

And he obviously is an extraordinary guide to how to deal with the fact that things are always changing, that we get older, that we suffer, that there's death, that we can't predict the future.

显然，他本人也经历了巨大的苦难。

And obviously, he's had enormous suffering in his own life.

你指出，我认为，他在1959年大约23岁时被流放出了家乡，根本没有时间向朋友们道别，而许多朋友最终被杀害。

You point out, I think, that book that he was exiled from his homeland in 1959 when he was about 23, I think, and had no time to say goodbye to his friends, many of whom ended up being killed.

直到你在一本书中提到这一点，我才意识到，我认为有多达一百万藏人死于饥饿或与中国的直接冲突，大约十分之一的人曾被监禁。

And I didn't realize that until you had mentioned it in one of your books, that I think more than a million Tibetans died of starvation or in direct encounters with the Chinese, and something like one in ten were jailed.

我认为你曾说过，六千座寺院中，仅有13座幸存下来。

I think you said that all but 13 out of 6,000 monasteries were destroyed.

因此，他经历了难以想象的逆境。

So he's been through unimaginable adversity.

我想知道，你能否谈谈从他身上学到了什么，关于如何应对逆境，如何面对生活中有时发生的那些灾难性事件。

And I wondered if you could talk a bit about what you've learned from him about how to how to deal with adversity, how to deal with the fact that there there are just these catastrophic things that sometimes happen in people's lives.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，如果有人问我他是谁，我会说他是心灵的医生。

I mean, think I would describe the Dalai Lama.

如果有人问我他是谁，我会说他是心灵的医生。

If somebody asked me who is he, I would say he's a doctor of the mind.

就像任何医生一样，他并非无所不能，也肯定不是永生的。

So like any doctor, he's not infallible and he's certainly not immortal.

但就像任何医生一样，他试图提供的治疗方法与你的宗教、种族或其他任何因素都无关，只是简单地让你感觉更好。

But like any doctor, he's trying to offer prescriptions that have nothing to do with your religion or race or any of the rest but just this may make you feel better.

作为一位心灵医生，我想他深知你刚才提到的爱比克泰德以及其他关于心灵力量的观点。

And as a doctor of the mind, think he's aware of just what you were saying a minute ago from Epictetus and all the rest of the powers of the mind.

我认为，最让我感动的是，在1959年他23岁流亡时，刚踏上印度土地，第一句话就是对他的小弟弟说：‘现在我们自由了。’

And I was most moved, I think, when I was writing that book to find that when he came into exile in '59 at the age of 23, the first thing he said as he turned to his little brother when he set foot in India was now we are free.

这不仅意味着我们摆脱了试图拦截我们的中国人，更意味着我们现在有机会去创造一个全新的西藏。

Meaning not just now we are free of the Chinese who are trying to intercept us, but now we are free kind of to make a new Tibet.

他以一种若留在拉萨宫殿、被千年传统束缚时绝不可能实现的方式，在流亡中重塑了整个西藏。

And he reformed the whole of Tibet in exile in a way he probably never could have done if he was stuck in the palace in Lhasa surrounded by centuries of tradition.

你知道，他首次为他的人民带来了民主。

You know, he brought democracy to his people for the first time ever.

他还为藏族社区的女性带来了新的机会，她们如今可以参与辩论并成为住持，而这是以前无法做到的。

He's brought new opportunities to women in the Tibetan community who can become practice debating and become abbots as they couldn't before.

他把西方科学引入了僧侣的课程中。

He's brought western science to his monks curriculum.

印度的每一位藏传佛教僧人都必须学习西方科学所证实的生命事实，而这些内容以前西藏了解得并不多。

Every Tibetan monk in India has to learn the facts of life as they've been proved by Western science, which Tibet hadn't learned so much about before.

因此，就在我们看来似乎遭遇巨大损失的那一刻——他失去了家园，失去了与本应统治的人民的联系，失去了我们所理解的命运——他却将其视为机遇。

And so just that notion that at that moment of seeming loss as we see it, when he's lost his homeland, he's lost contact with the people he was meant to rule, he's lost his destiny as we think of it, he sees it as opportunity.

他立刻意识到，实际上，我获得了这些。

Instantly, he sees, actually, I've gained that.

他常常会说，你知道，通过失去家园，我获得了整个世界作为家园，这听起来或许轻而易举，但他确实身体力行地活出了这一点，因为我认为他最广为人知的，正是他那始终如一的微笑、富有感染力的笑声和坚定的自信。

And he often will say, you know, by losing my homeland, I gained the whole world as a home, which can sound like an easy thing to say except he's so visibly living it because, you know, I think what he's most famous for rightly is his constant smile and his infectious laugh and his robust sense of confidence.

而且，同样因为这是一种普世的心灵，我记得在疫情期间，他曾说，你知道，当全世界都在承受巨大痛苦时，让我们不要用焦虑、压力或愤怒去加剧这种痛苦。

And, again, because it's a universal mind, I I remember during the pandemic, he was saying, you know, where all the world is suffering so much, let's try not to compound the suffering with our minds, with anxiety or stress or or or rage.

当然，不是所有事情都在我们的掌控之中，但我认为他是在提醒我们，或许我们能掌控的比我们想象的要多一点。

And, of course, not all of that is in our control, but I think he was reminding us it might be a little bit more in our control than we imagine.

我们知道，我们都身处这个黑暗世界的困境之中，不知道在新冠疫情期间何时才能获得解脱，但让我们寻找那些能让我们更强大的东西，而不是那些让我们感到绝望的因素，正如我之前所说。

And that, you know, we're all stuck with this terrible predicament of a world in the dark and we don't know how long we're going to be released from it during the the COVID epidemic, but let's look for the things that are going to make us stronger rather than the ones that are going to make us feel hopeless as I was saying before.

如果有人再次问我，你认为达赖喇嘛最宝贵的贡献是什么？

And if I were to ask if I had again, if somebody asked me what are the what what do you think is the most valuable contribution of the Dalai Lama?

有三件事立刻浮现在我脑海中。

There are three things that quickly come to my mind.

首先，我会说他是一个真正的现实主义者。

The first is I would say he's a master realist.

人们常常忘记，他从四岁起就领导他的人民至今已有八十四年，他对空想的解决方案或对世界应然的浪漫幻想毫无兴趣。

Again, people forget he's been leader of his people for eighty four years now, since the age of four, who has no interest in wishy washy solutions, romantic notions of what the world could be.

我的意思是，他的整个世界都在权力的走廊中展开——在欧洲议会，在与中国复杂的博弈中，在造访白宫时。

I mean, his whole world has been prosecuted in corridors of power in the European parliament in the complicated chess game with China in his visits to the White House.

我认为他经历中最宝贵的部分，并非他是一位在山顶上传授智慧、培养智慧的僧人，而是一位身处时代广场、耶路撒冷街头和加尔各答街头，尽其所能提供帮助的僧人。

And I think what's most valuable to us about his experience is not that he's a monk on top of a mountain sharing wisdom or cultivating wisdom, but he's a monk in the middle of Times Square with the streets of Jerusalem and Calcutta offering what he can.

第二件让我印象深刻的是，作为一位伟大的宗教领袖，他说其实并不需要宗教。

The second thing that I think is very impressive about him is that as a great religious leader, he he says there's no need to have religion.

宗教是一种美好的奢侈品，能为生活增添滋味和风味，就像葡萄酒或牛奶一样。

Religion's a lovely luxury that adds savor and flavor to life like like wine or milk.

但真正让我们无法离开的水，是日常生活中的善意与责任，这与你的信仰或不信什么毫无关系。

But the real water we can't live without is just everyday kindness and responsibility, and that has nothing to do with what you believe or don't believe.

而且我很感动，他知道他致力于科学，因为科学超出了宗教的界限，它是实证的，因此具有普适性。

And and I'm very touched, know, he's committed to science because it's outside the boundaries of religion, because it's empirical and therefore universal.

万有引力定律适用于每一个人。

The laws of gravity apply to everybody.

但我也深受感动的是，他会接受英国一群基督徒的邀请，前去讲授关于福音书的系列讲座，谈到耶稣时，他的眼中会涌出泪水。

But also I'm so touched that he will respond to an invitation from a group of Christians in England and go and deliver a series of lectures on the gospels, and the tears will come to his eyes as he speaks about Jesus.

所以，这位宗教领袖告诉我们：我们不必非得有宗教信仰。

So here's a religious leader telling us we don't have to be religious.

这位世界上最有名的佛教徒，在面对美国、英国或欧洲时，告诉人们不要成为佛教徒，而应留在自己的传统中，因为那样更少出现误解的风险。

Here's the most prominent Buddhist in the world who, when it comes to The US or Britain or Europe, tells people not to become Buddhists, to stay within their own traditions where there's less danger of misunderstanding.

而这位西藏人也始终努力避免说任何针对中国的话，他明白，完全可以在不把中国人视为敌人的前提下支持西藏，因为我们生活在一个相互关联的世界里，每个人的福祉都依赖于他人的福祉。

And here's a Tibetan who really tries hard never to say anything against the Chinese and who realizes that you can support Tibet entirely without thinking of the Chinese as your enemy because we're in an interconnected world and the health of any individual depends on the health of every other.

但我们所处的是一张相互交织的网，而不是一个充满界限的世界。

But it's it's it's a web that we're inhabiting rather than a world of boundaries.