RWH035：与克里斯·戴维斯一起学习沃伦·巴菲特与查理·芒格

你可以把这看作加密货币的情况，人们之所以支付这些费用，是因为他们缺乏信任。

You could view that as like with the crypto, that is what people are paying because they don't have trust.

所以他们支付了所有这些费用，但最终得到了更好的结果吗？

So they pay all that, and then do they get a better outcome?

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

我的意思是，伯克希尔就是一个例子，所有那些被省略的尽职调查旅行、投资银行和审计师的工作，并不会带来更高的回报或避免欺诈。

I mean, I think Berkshire is an example that all of the foregone due diligence trips in investment banking and auditors and so on would not have produced an outcome that would have raised returns or avoided fraud.

某种程度上，信任最终成为了一种超级力量。

In a way, trust ended up to be a a superpower on it.

所以我认为这是一种正确的生活方式，但即使我不这么想，一个人也很难忽视在商业环境中，建立在信任网络中的确定性所蕴含的巨大威力。

So I think it's a I think it's the right way to live, but I think even if I didn't think about that, it would be a strange thing for somebody to fail to recognize what enormous power there is in having a certainly in a business context, operating in a web of of trust.

确实如此，正如我所说，这无疑是一种更有趣的生活方式。

It is and as I say, it's certainly a more fun way to go through life.

我不会愿意用别的东西来替代它。

I wouldn't I wouldn't wanna substitute it.

所以，嗯，

So Well,

如果你反过来想，这也挺有意思，对吧？回到查理在年度股东大会上说的关于避开有毒人群的话，他说：

it's also interesting if you if you invert it, right, and you go back to what Charlie was saying at the annual general meeting where he was talking about avoiding toxic people, and he said, look.

把有毒的人赶出你的生活，而且要快。

Get toxic people out of your life and do it fast.

有一个很精彩的时刻，沃伦说：如果可能的话，尽量委婉地处理。

And there was a a wonderful moment where Warren said, well, do it tactfully if possible.

查理回应说：对。

And Charlie was like, yeah.

我不介意稍微有点技巧，但总之就是要尽快远离他们。

I don't mind a little tact, but just get them out of your life.

这在某种程度上又回到了汤姆的评论，即你希望先给予信任。

And and so it's in a way, gets back to Tom's comment that you wanna extend trust first.

但如果别人不回报，那你就要迅速远离他们。

But if people don't reciprocate, boy, do you get away from them quickly.

对我来说，比如菲尔，我喜欢股票的一点是它不是一种协商交易。

Well, for me, Phil, for example, one of the things I love about stocks is it's not a negotiated transaction.

回顾我整个职业生涯，无论是我个人还是公司层面，我们都完成过一些非常成功的私人交易。

And if I look over my whole career at the private deals I've done personally, as a firm, we've done some with great success.

但当我审视我个人参与的交易时，记录却相当糟糕。

But when I look at the ones that I've done personally, it's a pretty poor record.

而且这尤其糟糕，因为我无法想象直视某人的眼睛去撒谎。

And it's particularly poor because I can't imagine looking somebody in the eye and lying.

所以，当你在与卖方进行协商交易时，我在这方面非常糟糕。

And so, you know, when you're in a negotiated transaction with a seller, I am terrible at that.

我喜欢股票的地方在于价格是固定的。

I would not what I love about stocks is the price is set.

我不需要和对方讨价还价。

I'm not negotiating with the other person.

我认为这是我的一个弱点，而不是优势，但我已经成功地安排了我的生活，使我不擅长强硬谈判的缺点没有对我造成伤害。

That is I view that as a weakness in me, not a strength, but I've been able to structure my life so my inability to be a hard nosed negotiator has not hurt me.

换句话说，如果我太天真，轻易相信别人，当我买公寓之类的东西时，后来发现人家在壁炉是否能用这种事上满嘴谎言，这对我可没什么好处。

Other words, to be a little naive and accept it doesn't help me when I buy an apartment or something and I learn subsequently that people were lying through their teeth about whether a fireplace worked or something.

你知道，那时候我就觉得自己像个傻瓜。

You know, then I feel like a sucker.

哦，我本该对那个部分做一下检查的，诸如此类的。

Oh, I shouldn't I should have had an inspection on that element or so on.

但对我来说，股票很棒，因为我根本不需要进行那种谈判交易。

But, you know, for me, are wonderful because I don't have to have I don't have to have that negotiated transaction.

我认为，当有人对你撒谎时，这正是我觉得做空会是一种极其糟糕的生活方式的原因之一。

The I think the idea of when somebody has lied to you, it's one of the reasons I think short selling would be such a terrible way to live.

你得面对那个有毒的人，而你根本没法把他从你的生活中赶走。

You have to you know, that toxic person, you can't get them out of your life.

你必须醒着的每一刻都花在研究那个有毒的人身上，试图弄清楚他们有多毒、多欺骗、多撒谎、多偷窃。

You've gotta you've gotta spend every waking hour studying that toxic person, you know, trying to elucidate all the ways that they're toxic and deceitful and lying and stealing.

嗯，这种生活就是一直沉浸在有毒的人当中，确实很难熬。

Well, that's a that's a tough way to go through life immersed in toxic people.

所以我更喜欢查理和沃伦的哲学。

So I I like Charlie's and Warren's philosophy a lot more.

正如我所说，有些人认为，股票恰恰提供了一个完美的场所，在这里你不需要与对方直接交涉。

And and as I say, you know, there are people where, I think, where stocks sort of create the perfect venue where you you don't need that individual on the other side.

你不需要与卖家达成协议，而我自身的认知偏差会让这种交易变得非常困难。

You don't need to come to terms with the seller and whatever for me the behavior biases I have that would make that very difficult.

相反，我有一个固定的价格，然后我可以据此决定该怎么做。

Instead, I have a set price, and I can figure out what to do with that price.

所以我想说的是，所有这些人共同拥有一种‘泰格·伍兹式’的技巧，我非常欣赏这一点。每当我谈论体育时，都得加个注脚：我对几乎任何体育项目都不了解，但我喜欢体育，因为我觉得它富有隐喻意义。

So it's I you know, what I would say is that all of the people have in common a Tiger Woods trick, which I really love, which is I I whenever I talk about sports, you have to footnote that I don't know anything about almost any sports, but I like sports because I find it metaphorically rich.

我认为，泰格·伍兹第一次参加英国公开赛时，

And so Tiger Woods, I think it was his first British Open as I understand it.

他当时最弱的一项技术是从沙坑中击球。

The weakest part of Tiger Woods' game at that point was his coming out of the sand trap.

相对于那些最擅长这项技术的人，他的表现并不出色。

He was not very good at that relative to the people that were the best at it.

他们正在一个以沙坑闻名的球场举行英国公开赛，那些沙坑看起来像是被炮弹炸出来的，又深又危险。

And they were playing the British Open at a course that was renowned for these bunkers that looked like, you know, they were created by a piece of artillery and, you know, the deep nasty bunkers.

因此，媒体不断追问泰格，你有没有在练习沙坑击球？

And and so the press was really pushing Tiger on, you know, have you been working on your sand game?

他们在练习轮中观察他，他回答说：没有。

And they were watching him in the practice rounds, and he said, no.

我正在练习开球和低杆。

I'm working on my drives and my low irons.

他们问：为什么？

And they said, why?

他说：因为我根本不打算进沙坑。

And he said, because I don't wanna go in the sand.

他在整个英国公开赛中一次都没进过沙坑，这是一种了不起的心理模式：如果你能识别自己的弱点，是的，尽量减轻它们的严重性。

And he played the entire British Open and didn't go into a bunker once, which is an incredible sort of mental model to have, which is you know, if you can identify your weaknesses, yes, trying to reduce how severe they are.

你不能让那些弱点拖垮你。

You don't have weaknesses that are gonna take you down.

但更重要的是，试着设计你的生活，让你避开这些弱点，这才是最好的策略。

But then trying to architect your life so you avoid them is the best of all.

我认为，沃伦、查理以及你提到的许多人都做得很好，他们为自己构建了这样的生活：无论他们的弱点是什么，都没有拖垮他们。

And I would say something that Warren and Charlie and many of the people you mentioned have done well is they've structured their lives so whatever their weaknesses are, it hasn't been taken them down.

你提到了查理的直率。

And so you mentioned Charlie's bluntness.

我认为，如果查理担任一家财富500强公司的首席执行官，这种直率并不会对他有帮助。

I don't think that would have served Charlie as the CEO of a Fortune 500 company.

作为管理大量人员的领导者，这种直率也不会适合他。

It wouldn't have served him as a manager of a lot of people.

当你从一个排扩展到连队、再到营级单位时，会有一个转折点——到了那时，你就再也无法直接沟通了。

It wouldn't serve him to have to you know, when you go from a platoon to a company to a brigade, you know, all those Roman, there's a there's a turning point where all of a sudden you can no longer communicate directly.

你必须开始用故事来传达信息，并且不得不让自己变成某种脱离真实自我的形象。

You have to begin to communicate with stories, and you have to allow yourself to become a some sort of, you know, some sort of cut out of who you are.

我认为这对查理来说会非常困难——当然，这只是我的推测。

And that I think would have been I mean, I'm speculating, but I think it would have been very difficult for Charlie.

因此，查理以一种方式安排了自己的生活，使他的这些性格特质没有拖累他。

And so Charlie structured his life in a way where that those personality traits of his didn't set him back.

沃伦是一个非凡的沟通者，散发着一种温暖，人们能感受到，但正如他自己所说，他非常难以做出解雇或替换某人的艰难决定。

Warren is an incredible communicator and exudes this sort of warmth and people can feel, But he has a very hard time, as he says, describes, you know, making those really hard decisions to fire somebody or to replace them.

因此，作为一家财富500强公司的首席执行官，他为自己构建了一种环境，在这种环境中，他一生中不得不做出的这类决定少之又少。

So he structured here he is as a CEO of a Fortune 500 company where over time he's had to make very, very, very, very few of those decisions.

所以他为自己安排生活，尽量减少这些弱点的影响。

So he's structured his life to minimize those weaknesses and so on.

所以我认为，人们应该牢记一个非常有力的教训：不必过分纠结于自己的弱点，而应尽力安排自己的生活，以避开许多这类问题。

So I think there's I think a very powerful lesson for people to carry out is not to necessarily obsess on your weaknesses, but to do your best to structure your life so that you can avoid a lot of them.

当我们今年五月在奥马哈交谈时，你对查理和沃伦在人际互动方式上的差异做了一个非常有趣的观察，韦布，我当时提到一个人——我尽量不点名，但有个人问了一个非常愚蠢的问题。

You made a fascinating observation about the difference between Charlie and Warren's approach to human interactions back when we were talking in in May in Omaha, Webb, I I was pointing out someone I'll try not to be too specific, but someone asked a really stupid question.

我提到查理立刻就无视了它。

And I was mentioning that Charlie just dismissed it instantly.

他根本不会假装那是个什么了不起的问题。

Like, he didn't pretend that it was anything but a stupid question.

沃伦以一种极其巧妙的方式回应了那个提出愚蠢问题的人，完全没有侮辱对方。

And Warren replied in such an incredibly deft way where he didn't insult the person who'd answer who'd asked the stupid question.

他把这个问题转化成了一个关于其他事情的有益教学案例，让观众从中受益。

He turned it into a useful teaching lesson about something else so that people in the audience got something out of it.

这真是太巧妙了。

And it was so immoliant.

既迷人又机智。

It was so charming and so deft.

我向你提到过他高超的外交手腕，而你说有趣的是，实际上在某些方面，查理才是那个心地柔软的人，尽管表面上看并非如此。

And I mentioned this to you, like, his his brilliant diplomacy, and you were saying the funny thing is, actually, in some ways, Charlie is the soft hearted guy even though it doesn't seem it.

沃伦则像一台精妙的机器，研究过戴尔·卡耐基的《如何赢得朋友与影响他人》，正如你所说，他拥有超快的处理速度。

Warren is this sort of brilliant machine who studied Dale Carnegie and how to win friends and influence people, and he has, as you put it, super high processing speed.

因此，他能够兼顾所有方面，知道如何以友善和体贴的方式行事。

So he's able to tick all of these boxes and know how to behave in a way that's gonna be kind and thoughtful.

我觉得这是一个非常有趣的观察。

And I just thought it was such a fascinating observation.

你能再多讲讲这一点吗？

Can you talk a little bit more about that?

我不知道我有没有充分表达出你的观察。

I don't know if I'm if I'm doing justice to your observation.

嗯，我想说的是，沃伦会向每一位来访的客人展示他办公室里挂着的戴尔·卡耐基证书。

Well, I you know, what I'd say is Warren shows any visitor that comes to see him, you know, his Dale Carnegie certificate hanging in his office.

他会谈到这对他有多重要。

And he talks about how important that was.

现在人们很少再读戴尔·卡耐基的书了。

And and people don't read much Dale Carnegie anymore.

这本书真的非常值得一读。

It's really worth reading.

它极其实用，是一本非常接地气的指南。

It's enormously useful, and it is a very practical guide.

你知道，它的副标题是‘如何交朋友并影响他人’。

You know, it's the subtitle is how to make friends and influence people.

而我们现在听来，这种做法听起来非常虚伪或带有操控性，似乎缺乏诚意。

And we hear that in the our modern ear now, and that sounds very disingenuous or manipulative for somehow lacking integrity.

我完全不同意这种看法。

I actually totally disagree.

我认为，正如约翰·伍登曾经著名地说过：‘你没有真正教过，除非对方真正学到了。’

I I think it was it it is a way, you know, as as John Wooden famously said, you you haven't taught unless they've learned.

我认为，这是一种尽力确保自己不会传达出本意之外信息的方式。

You know, I think it is a way to to do your best to make sure that somehow you aren't communicating something you don't wish to communicate or don't intend to communicate.

因此，我认为沃伦是这种思维模式的杰出实践者。

And so I think Warren was an incredible student of that mindset.

所以你说得完全正确。

And so you're absolutely right.

顺便说一句，本杰明·富兰克林也是如此。

And by the way, Ben Franklin was too.

我曾经记录下来一些东西，本该带过来的——我有一本从大学时代就开始收集的笔记，里面主要是我从书籍或诗歌中摘录的名言。

I I have written down, I should have brought it in, I have book of things that I've jotted down mostly quotes from books or poems, you know, since I was in college.

其中一个是关于本杰明·富兰克林的，他说他认识一些人，虽然非常擅长在辩论中获胜，却从未赢得过任何影响或善意，而这些本会更有利于他们。

And one of them is about Ben Franklin talking about how he knew people that were very effective at winning arguments, but they never win one influence or goodwill, and that would have served them better.

他们之所以没能做到这一点，是因为在赢得辩论的过程中，他们往往会羞辱对方。

And the reason they didn't is they on the course of their winning the argument, they tended to humiliate the other person.

这样一来，他们虽然让人佩服自己的聪明才智，却也树了一个敌人。

And in so doing, they impressed people with their intelligence, but they also gained an enemy.

最终，这反而拖累了他们。

And ultimately, that set them back.

所以查理会把本杰明·富兰克林视为他的戴尔·卡内基。

So and and Charlie would hold up Ben Franklin as his Dale Carnegie.

我的意思是，他们确实掌握了非常了不起的处世之道。

So I mean, of them have enormous, you know, have learned ways.

查理曾经告诉我，他穿西装部分是因为他说：‘我其他方面已经够特立独行了，至少穿西装能让人们立刻觉得我并非完全反常，这可能有帮助，但说到底，这纯粹是个实用的考量。’

Charlie once told me he wears suits in part because he said, I'm so unconventional in other ways that if I at least wear a suit, people immediately assume unconventional in some ways, and that that's probably helpful, but, you know, that it was purely a practical matter.

但我确实认为，沃伦之所以如此，是因为他的父亲当然是国会议员，所以我想他从小便培养了这种政治敏锐度，用最好的意义来说。

But I do think that I think Warren is so you know, his father, of course, was a congressman, so I think he grew up with this sort of understanding, this sort of political sensibility in the best sense of the word.

你知道吧？

You know?

换句话说，如何建立善意，如何让别人为你成功而加油。

In other words, how to create goodwill, how to have people rooting for your success.

想象一下，他取得了如此成就，却几乎没有敌人。

Imagine the record that he's achieved with almost no enemies.

你能想到另一个财富积累起来，却没被世人普遍视为恶人的例子吗？

Can you name another fortune that was built where there wasn't a significant consensus or a significant view in the in the world that somehow that person gets vilified.

我的意思是，想想人们对杰夫·贝佐斯、比尔·盖茨或山姆·沃尔顿和沃尔玛的舆论变化，你几乎找不到几个这样的例子，当然约翰·D.是其中之一。

I mean, you know, I think about watching the changing narratives around Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates or Sam Walton and Walmart, and, you know, there are very few you can point to, you know, certainly John D.

洛克菲勒、卡内基，他们都是这样，但霍华德·舒尔茨却是个例外。

Rockefeller and Carnegie and all of them, but but there tends to be Howard Schultz.

有人专门炒作贬低霍华德·舒尔茨。

You know, there's a cottage industry vilifying Howard Schultz.

我不明白。

I don't get it.

这看起来，你知道，很疯狂，但似乎这本身就是这一行的常态。

It seems, you know, crazy, but it just seems it sort of goes with the territory.

因此，沃伦能够积累如此巨大的财富，同时仍被世界大多数人视为一位善良、温和且富有耐心的人，这真是令人惊叹。

So it's an amazing thing for Warren to have built this fortune and still have so much of the world viewing him as this sort of kind, gentle presence and patient.

但我觉得你说得对。

And but I think you're right.

我认为在很多方面，这确实是一种——我们不必猜测这是否是好事。

I think in in in many ways it is a well, we don't have to speculate whether it's it's good.

这就像诚实一样，你知道，无论你是出于好政策的考虑，还是出于道德上的正确，都可以这么做。

It's like honesty, you know, whether it's it's, you know, good policy or whether it's ethically right, you could do it for either reason.

效果是一样的。

The effect is the same.

汤姆·盖纳喜欢谈论贵格会，你知道，他们本意是行善，结果也赚到了钱。

Tom Gaynor loves to talk about the Quakers, you know, came to do good and did well.

这个理念是一样的：这种做法不仅让他受益匪浅，而且即使面对荒谬的问题，以这种方式对待他人也是一种非常合乎道德的做法。

It's the same idea that it ends up that that that that approach both serves him enormously well and is a very ethical way to treat people even when they ask asinine questions.

但你知道，查理会驳回某人，说这是个愚蠢的问题，而沃伦，正如你所说，他会赋予这个问题尊严，即使这个问题原本并不存在，或者提问者并没有这样的意图。

But, you know, Charlie dismissing somebody and saying that's an asinine question Warren Warren, as you say, he invests dignity into the question even if it wasn't there or if it wasn't intended by the asker.

是的。

Yeah.

我绝对要再次强调，人们应该回去重读那本书《如何赢得朋友与影响他人》。

I I would definitely reiterate that people should go back and read that book, how to win friends and influence people.

因为书名听起来非常世故，但去年我因为和女儿讨论这本书，又重新开始阅读。

Because of the title, it sounds very cynical, but I started rereading it again last year because I was talking to my daughter about it.

我知道那本书。

I know about that.

对。

Yeah.

我跟她说，你看。

I I I was saying to her, look.

这里真的有一些非常重要的技巧。

There are really important skills here.

当我重新阅读这本书时，我深受触动，不仅因为它写得极为出色，而且我认为它潜移默化地影响了我们这一代最成功的作家。

And I was struck when I reread it not not only by how skillfully written it is, but how actually I think unconsciously it's influenced an entire generation of our most successful writers.

因此，我怀疑就像你可以追溯出一条从本·格雷厄姆经由沃伦、查理以及包括你自己在内的许多人的传承脉络一样，

And so I actually suspect that in in the same way that you can show that there's this lineage that comes out of Ben Graham through, you know, Warren and Charlie and and many others, including yourself.

你也可以梳理出一条源自戴尔·卡耐基的传承脉络，证明像马尔科姆·格拉德威尔这样的人，以及我自己，在创作更丰富、更睿智、更幸福的内容时，有意识或无意识地都借鉴了卡耐基的方法——他采访这些人，然后讲述那些优雅的故事，提炼出精彩的名言警句。

You can actually you could plot a kind of lineage coming out of Dale Carnegie where you could actually show that the techniques that people like Malcolm Gladwell use and that I use in in richer wiser happier consciously or unconsciously actually stem from Carnegie that he would he would interview these people, and then he would tell these really elegant stories and come up with with great quotes and sayings.

他的方法非常实用。

It was very practical.

我不确定。

I don't know.

我怀疑，如果你去研究像丹尼尔·平克或大卫·爱泼斯坦这样的所有优秀非虚构作家，你会发现我们中有相当多的人，无论有意识还是无意识，都深深欠着戴尔·卡耐基一份情。

I suspect if you looked at all these guys like Daniel Pink now or or David Epstein, all these really good nonfiction writers, you'd find that a hell of a lot of us actually consciously or unconsciously owe this huge debt to Dale Carnegie.

我觉得你说得对。

I think you're right.

而且我认为，人们对它的那种愤世嫉俗的态度，其实是非常令人不安的。

And I and I think that the cynicism about it is really something that's very deeply troubling.

原因在于，它触及了人性可变性的这一理念。

And the reason is it sort of gets at this idea of the mutability of human nature.

对吧？

Right?

如今，人们对身份有一种近乎痴迷的关注，比如你是谁、身份有多可塑、多固定等等。

Right now there's this sort of obsession with, you know, identity, know, who are you, how malleable is it, how fixed is it, and so on.

这种现象以各种形式表现出来。

And that manifests in all different ways.

但将近三千年前，亚里士多德就说过：美德是一种习惯，是我们所做的事情。

But almost three thousand years ago, Aristotle said, virtue is a habit, it is what we do.

因此，这其中隐含着一种观念：你可以变得更有德行，可以让自己更趋近美德。

So there was implicit in that, this idea that you could become virtuous, you could make yourself more virtuous.

当前的时代精神却对这种观点持高度怀疑态度，仿佛认为这是不真实的，认为你的本质是固定不变、无法改变的。

There is something in the zeitgeist at the moment that really views that cynically, as if somehow it's inauthentic, that who you are is you're screwed.

就像，你是谁，就这样了。

Like, whoever you are, that's it.

我认为二十世纪五十年代的美国有一部分非常值得钦佩，那是战后美国的一个历史时期，我由衷地敬仰。

And I think that there was part of the nineteen fifties America, which is it's a period the postwar US is a time in history that I admire so profoundly.

想想马歇尔计划，想想重建日本、重建德国，创造了近一百年的和平。

You know, you think of the Marshall Plan, you think about rebuilding Japan, rebuilding Germany, creating almost a hundred years of peace.

不仅是和平，还有巨大的善意。

And not just peace, enormous goodwill.

对吧？

Right?

这些是我们最强大的盟友。

These are our strongest allies.

这种心态当然伴随着一种乐观精神，一种‘我们能做到’的态度。

That mindset, which of course came with this sort of optimism that that in this sort of we can do attitude.

但我觉得这种精神也延伸到了个人层面，即‘我会’——顺便说一句，这种观念并非始于那个时代。

But I think that went to the individual, this idea that I will and by the way, it didn't just start then.

它实际上是十九世纪末、新兴中产阶级以及沙卡瓦斯兴起时的一个显著特征，即当我们获得财富时，应当致力于自我提升。

It was a real characteristic of the late nineteenth century and the emerging middle class and the creation of Shatakwas and this idea that as we achieve means, should work on self improvement.

而且，你知道，这种自我提升的理念是一种非常美国式的心态。

And and, you know, this idea of self improvement, it's a very American mindset.

你知道，在电影《战车》中有一个精彩的场景。

You know, there is a wonderful scene in chariot safari.

我不确定现在还有多少人记得这部电影。

I don't know if many people even remember that movie now.

是的。

Yeah.

但那些老派的英国男教师责备年轻的艾布拉姆斯——那位跑步运动员，因为他们觉得他的训练方法太过商业化，有点偏离了运动的精神。

But with the old English school masters sort of chastising young Abrams, the runner, because they viewed his training methods as a bit commercial, a little bit, not quite in the spirit of things.

还记得他们推崇的那种人吗？他们练习跨栏时，会在每个栏架上放一杯香槟。

Remember the man that they fancy would, you know, practice hurdling by putting glasses of champagne on each hurdle.

而艾布拉姆斯却采用了科学的方法和专业教练。

And here was Abrams, you know, employing scientific methods and a professional coach.

因此，他们对他进行了责备。

And so they were sort of chastising him.

他说，你知道，你羡慕我的成就，但却希望我能像神一样毫不费力地取得这些成就。

And and he said, you know, you you relish my achievements, but you would have me achieve with the effortlessness of gods.

这正是英国人的思维方式。

And that was very much the British mindset.

我在英国生活了五年。

I I lived in The UK for five years.

我爱英国。

I love The UK.

但你知道，问别人是做什么工作的，有点不太礼貌。

But, you know, I always was struck by the fact that it's a little bit rude to ask somebody what they do.

对吧？

Right?

这是美国式的问题。

That's an American question.

其实，每当我遇到新的人，我总是会问的第一个问题就是这个。

It's actually one of the first questions I always ask people when I meet them.

你是做什么的？

What do you do?

你为什么做这个？

Why do you do it?

这种关于职业、擅长某事，或者你如何度过清醒时光的理念。

This idea of vocation and being good at something and, you know, or how you spend your waking hours.

但在欧洲，尤其是英国，有一种观念认为，你默认我必须工作，仅这一点就可能有点冒犯。

But in in Europe in general, and I'll say in The UK, there's an idea of, well, you're presuming I need to work, And that alone, it could be a little insulting.

我不是技工。

I'm not a tradesman.

所以，不管怎样，这有点跑题了。

So, anyway, that's a little bit of a political tangent.

但我想说的是，自我提升这个理念，就像价值投资者那样，沃伦曾经说过，从股票指数的A开头开始。

But what I would say is this idea of self improvement as something that you you get started on just the way a value investor where Warren used to say, start at the a's in the stock index.

你知道，你从如何提升自己开始。

You know, you start with how do you improve yourself?

你知道，你可以列个清单。

You know, you make make a list.

把你钦佩的人的照片贴在周围。

You put up pictures around you of people that you admire.

你有榜样。

You have role models.

本·富兰克林写过这个。

Ben Franklin wrote about it.

亚里士多德写过这个。

Aristotle wrote about it.

沃伦写过这个。

Warren writes about it.

戴尔·卡耐基写过这个。

Dale Carnegie wrote about it.

但不知为何，人们对这个持有一种愤世嫉俗的态度，这让我感到非常沮丧。

But somehow there is a cynicism about that that I find really discouraging.

是的。

Yeah.

而且实际上没什么帮助。

And and unhelpful, actually.

当我读马可·奥勒留的《沉思录》时——那本书原本并不是为了出版，我认为只是他几千年前写下的个人笔记——我读完第一章后就想：等等，不对劲。

Mean, when I when I read, when I read Marcus Aurelius' Meditations, which was written not for publication, I think, it was his own his own notes written a couple of thousand years ago, I read the first chapter, I was like, wait a second.

他在开篇就提到了大约17个人，明确表示自己希望效仿他们的品质。

He's naming at the very start something like 17 people whose qualities he essentially wants to clone.

于是我心想：这位伟大的思想家，竟然有意识地在模仿他人。

And I'm like, here's one of the great thinkers, and he's consciously cloning.

这对我来说是一个非常有趣的例子，说明即使是像他这样的人，也在思考如何通过效仿父亲岳父的某种特质，或者养父的某种品质来提升自己。

And it was such a fascinating example for me of how these you know, even even someone like he was figuring out how do I improve myself by following this this trait of my father-in-law or this trait of this, the guy who adopted me.

所以，某种程度上，我认为在英国长大，我们总觉得承认自己想变得更好有点庸俗。

So, yeah, in some ways, I think having grown up in England, we think it's a little bit tawdry to admit that we want to improve ourselves.

我记得刚搬到纽约时，二十出头，才21岁，不知为什么特别焦虑。

And so, I mean, I remember buying when I first moved to New York in my early twenties, when I was at 21, I I was very anxious for some reason.

我认为那是人生中相当有压力的时期，你根本不知道自己将来要做什么，也不知道能否找到自己的人生方向。

I think it's quite a stressful time in your life where you don't really know what you're gonna do and if you're gonna find your way in the world.

我当时睡眠质量非常差。

I was having terrible trouble sleeping.

我记得当时买了戴尔·卡耐基的那本书，就是关于焦虑的另一本，书名大概是《停止忧虑，开始生活》。

And I I remember getting Dale Carnegie's book, the the other one, the one about anxiety that was something like, how to stop worrying and start living.

我觉得这本书真的非常好。

And I was like, this book is really, really good.

写得非常出色。

It's really well written.

我当时刚从牛津大学获得了英国文学学位。

And I I had just got an English literature degree from Oxford.

我简直就是个终极的知识分子傲慢者。

I was, like, the ultimate intellectual snob.

对吧？

Right?

我不得不羞愧地说，我不仅用笔划了大量标记，还把它藏在书架上其他书的后面，因为封面看起来太俗气了。

And I literally I I'm ashamed to say, I I not only marked it out very heavily, but I hid it behind other books on the bookshelf because it looked tawdry.

它的书名非常俗气。

It had a tawdry title.

那是一本大众平装本。

It was it was a mass market paperback.

纸张质量很差，但它对我帮助极大。

It was on terrible paper, but it was so helpful to me.

我记得书里引用了林肯等人的精彩语录，林肯的书桌上就放着一块牌子，上面只写着‘今天’。

And I remember it had these amazing quotes from people like Lincoln, you know, where Lincoln had this sign on his desk that just said today.

那是他提醒自己，只需专注于当下这一天。

That was him him just reminding himself that he could just focus on that one day.

还有一首由迦梨陀娑创作的非凡诗歌，用梵文写成，距今已有两三千年的历史，我因为深受启发而把它背了下来。

And there was an extraordinary poem by Kaladasa, this written in Sanskrit, like, two, three thousand years ago that I memorized because it was it was so helpful.

所以我觉得，他整合了如此丰富的世俗智慧，但不知为何，这又让人觉得有点尴尬。

And so I feel like he had he'd synthesized this incredible worldly wisdom, and yet somehow it was sort of embarrassing.

所以我提到这本书，是因为我觉得我们观众中有人会因此去买那本《如何停止焦虑》的书，而且它真的会帮助到他们。

So I'm mentioning it because I think someone in our audience is gonna now buy that book on how to stop worrying, and it's actually gonna really help them.

所以，我希望你能从我坦白自己曾因羞愧而藏起这本书的经历中获益。

And so I I I hope you'll benefit from my my admission of my own shame in in in hiding hiding that book.

我完全理解你的这种羞愧感。

I absolutely share your shame.

确实如此。

It's so true.

这作为一种文明现象，是一种奇特的倒退。

And it is a peculiar it's a peculiar regression as a as a civilization.

我认为这反映了当下非常流行的一种观念，即你的命运由你无法控制的外部环境决定。

And I think that it speaks to this idea that I do think is very, very much the currency of the moment, which is that your destiny is determined by circumstances that are outside of your control.

比如，身份、性别、政治、种族等等。

And, you know, it it could be, you know, identity and gender, politics, race.

也可能是系统本身被操纵，导致人们难以成功；顺便说一句，我认为这助长了一种观念：人根本没有真正的能动性，成功者只是因为系统偏袒，失败者则是因为系统剥夺了他们的机会。

It could be that, no, the system is rigged so that people achieve and by the way, I think that and and so it feeds this idea that there is no true agency, that in a way the people that succeeded succeeded because the system was rigged, the people that failed failed because the system undermined their opportunities.

你知道，这超出了我的世界。

And, you know, this is outside of the my my world.

但我确实认为，剥夺这种能动性和能动感是非常具有破坏性的。

And but I do think that there is something about removing that agency and that sense of agency that I think is very destructive.

我不认为这是永久的。

I don't think it's permanent.

我认为这些事情像浪潮一样来来去去，但那种你可以读一本书、做出一系列决定，从而改善你的生活，相比你没读那本书的情况，这种想法。

I think these things sort of wash through in in waves, but but the idea that, you know, you could read a book and make a make a series of decisions that improved your life relative to where you have been if you hadn't read that.

这种能动性和某种程度的流动性。

That idea of of of agency and and a certain amount of mobility.

你知道，我生来就在三垒，所以我甚至开始以这种方式说话都是很危险的，因为我知道我一开始就拥有所有可能的优势。

You know, I was born on third base, so it's a I'm a very dangerous person to even begin to to talk in that way because, you know, I I really started with every possible advantage.

但我可以说，看看我的研究团队，我认为我们团队80%的人都是第一代移民，或是移民子女，或他们自己就是移民。

So but I will say that I look at, you know, the you know, I look at my own research team, I'd say 80% of our research team are are first generation immigrants or, you know, children of of immigrants or themselves immigrants.

我真的相信，仍然存在巨大的流动性可能，而这一切始于自我提升的理念。

You know, I really do believe that there is still an enormous amount of mobility that is possible and that it starts with this idea of of self improvement.

而当我们创造一个更加愤世嫉俗的环境，将这种行为视为不真诚或操纵时，它就越容易被忽视，我们也就越放弃你所描述的那些阅读书籍后产生的反馈循环——正是这些循环帮助了你。

And that the more we create a cynical environment where that is considered inauthentic or manipulative, the more it is dismissed, the more we give up on the sort of feedback loops that you described from reading that book, how it helped you

是的。

Yeah.

或者达利·卡内基如何帮助了沃伦，以及这对整个文明意味着什么。

And and or how Dale Carnegie helped Warren and what that means in in for the greater civilization.

是的。

Yeah.

我确实记得曾经把那本书里的几段话抄在几张卡片上，尤其是关于如何停止焦虑的部分，比如何影响他人的部分更多。

And I I actually I remember writing out on a couple of cards various quotes from from that book, much more the one on how to stop worrying than how to influence people.

我记得还有一句是梭罗说的。

And there was one from Thoreau, if I remember.

我的意思是，这已经是三十五年前的事了，但有一句梭罗的话，我记得他谈的正是这一点，大意是：我没有比‘我们能够通过有意识的努力实现自我转变’这一事实更受鼓舞的了。

I mean, it's thirty five years since I did this, but there's one from Thoreau where I think he talked about exactly that where he said something along the lines of I know no more encouraging fact than our ability to to transform ourselves through an act of conscious endeavor.

我有点记不太准原话了。

I'm I'm slightly misquoting it.

但这对我来说非常鼓舞人心。

But that was incredibly heartening for me.

当我回望过去，我曾害怕有些事情就像你的设定点一样，比如你可能天生有点忧郁，或者你总是会焦虑。

And when I look back, I had this fear that there were certain things that were just kind of kinda like your your set points where, you know, maybe you had a slightly melancholy nature or maybe you're just always gonna be anxious.

而我现在55岁回看，最让我振奋的一点是，我虽然没有完全改变，但确实显著地改变了我的思维模式。

And one of the most encouraging things I found now at 55 looking back is how not completely, but very significantly I've actually managed to change my wiring.

而这确实是一种了不起的馈赠。

And and that's a really that's an incredible gift.

知道这一点让我想到一位伟大的智者，阿沙克拉比，他曾说过：这是一种灵性法则——你拥有的任何负面特质都可以被改变。

And just to know that, to know there's a there's a great sage, Rav Ashak, who said that, it's a spiritual law that there's no negative characteristic that you have that can't be changed.

当你看到这样的观点时，你会恍然大悟：哦，原来如此。

And when you see something like that, you're like, ah, wait.

所以，你身上确实存在一些消极的形式，或者这些不良的特质。

So there are these sort of forms of negativity that you have or these these these bad characteristics.

但你心里会说：不，不是这样的。

You're like, no.

实际上，你也可以改变这一点。

Actually, you can change that too.

我觉得这非常鼓舞人心。

I I find that incredibly heartening.

当然了。

Of course it is.

你甚至会说，即使这并不真实，让人们相信它也是有益的。

And you would almost say that even if it wasn't true, it would be good for people to believe it.

但它确实是真实的。

But it is true.

而且这也不奇怪，因为当年我在神学院时，有一位我非常敬爱的主教，他是新泽西州纽瓦克的主教，名叫杰克·斯彭格，他是个极具个性且颇具争议的人物，但他在许多方面都是我的良师益友，甚至远超他本人意识到的程度。

And and and it's not surprising in that in that, you know, one of my when I was in seminary, there was a bishop that I loved who was a bishop of Newark, New Jersey, and his name was Jack Spong, and he was an incredible character and very controversial, but he was a great teacher and mentor to me in many ways and ways way more than he would even have realized.

但他曾问我：信仰的反面是什么？

But he once asked me what is the opposite of faith?

我说：当然是怀疑。

And I said, you know, doubt.

他说，不，不是的。

And he said, oh, no.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

他说，信仰需要怀疑。

He says, faith requires doubt.

没有怀疑，就不可能有信仰。

You can't have faith without doubt.

信仰的对立面是确定性。

The opposite of faith is certainty.

如果

If

如果你有确定性，就不需要信仰。

you have certainty, you don't need faith.

他说，这非常像勇气。

He said it's very much like like courage.

你知道吗？

You know?

勇气不是没有恐惧。

Courage is not the absence of fear.

而是真实地面对恐惧，并能够驾驭这种恐惧。

It's the very real presence of fear and then being able to master that fear.

但恐惧本身就是勇敢的一部分。

But the fear needs is part of what it is to be courageous.

怀疑本身就是信仰的一部分。

Doubt is part of what it is to be faithful.

这个观点，以及将行为病理化为一种不可改变地强加于你的状态，字面意义上的‘条件’。

And this idea and the the sort of pathologizing of behavior as something that is immutably thrust on you as a condition, literally as a condition.

你知道吗，我经常逗我的孩子，当他们说类似‘我真的很焦虑’这样的话时。

And, you know, I tease my children often when they say things like, you know, well, I, you know, I have real I have anxiety about such and such.

我会说，那你为什么不讲‘我对这件事感到紧张’呢？

I will say, how about if you say I'm I'm nervous about that?

仅仅是语言上的这种改变。

Just the change in in the language.

如果你说，或者你可以说‘我真的很担心这件事’。

If you say, or if you say, I'm really worried about this.

那如果你试着说‘我对这件事感到兴奋’呢？

What if you try saying I'm excited about this?

因为这两种感觉都可能是真实的。

Because both can be true.

兴奋、紧张和担忧，你知道，你可以想象，我肯定，如果你曾经不得不发表演讲，那种紧张感本身就是其中的一部分。

And excitement and nervousness and worry, you know, you imagine, I mean, I'm sure, you know, if you ever get on have to give a speech, you know, that that nervousness can be part of of of of what it is.

这些感觉都可以共存。

It can all be.

但一旦它变成一种状况，就会变得某种程度上不可改变，或者需要被治疗。

But once it becomes a condition, then it becomes sort of immutable or or it needs to be treated.

但治疗来自外部，状况也来自外部，而在这种情况下，我们放弃了自主权。

But the treatment comes from outside, the condition comes from outside, and there we surrender agency.

我只是觉得，你知道，我非常幸运，不仅因为我人生的起点，更因为我从事的职业让我能不断研究卓越。

I just, you know, I'm so lucky not just from where I started in life, but I'm lucky to have a profession where I'm constantly studying excellence.

我正在研究一群人的行为。

And I'm studying a group of people.

你可能会说，其中一些人天生如此，他们继承了生意之类的，但大多数人并非出身于那种让人觉得他们的成就显而易见的环境。

Now you could say some of them were born to it, they, you know, inherited a business or something, but most of them did not come from circumstance where you would say their achievement was obvious.

有趣的是，我们对运动员充满深深的敬佩，因为没人会想，我稍微扯远一点，谈一下不平等问题。

And it's funny, we look at athletes with deep admiration because nobody thinks well, I'm going to segue a little bit to inequality in a strange way.

但没人会看着NBA，觉得勒布朗的薪水是联盟最低薪球员的很多倍，比二十年前更高，这有什么问题。

But, you know, nobody looks at the NBA and thinks it's a problem that LeBron is paid a greater multiple of the lowest paid player in the NBA than would have been the case twenty years ago.

换句话说，NBA内部的不平等已经变得大得多。

In other words, inequality in the NBA has gotten much, much greater.

但我们并不认为这是个问题，而且我们不认为这是个问题有两个原因。

But we don't think it's a problem, and we don't think it's a problem for two reasons.

第一个原因是，NBA中最贫穷的球员，收入最低的球员，依然收入丰厚。

And reason one is that the poorest player in the NBA, the lowest compensated player, is still well compensated.

因此，人们觉得在这种巨大的财富面前，没有人陷入贫困。

So there's a sense that you don't have poverty in the face of this immense wealth.

你不会看到球员担心，如果我受伤了，就会被赶出家门，失去保障。

You don't have players that are afraid that if I get injured, I'm gonna be kicked out of my house, and I'm gonna lose my coverage.

而且，人们普遍觉得，即使是在NBA收入最低的球员，也得到了很好的对待。

And, you know, there's a sense that even the lowest paid player in the NBA is treated well.

其次，人们认为勒布朗·詹姆斯拥有无可争议的天赋。

And then second, there's a view that LeBron James has a demonstrable talent that is unarguable.

这种天赋可以通过数据来衡量，因此他的收入是公平获得的。

It's measured in the statistics, and therefore, it was fairly achieved.

对吧？

Right?

所以没有人说这不公平。

So nobody is saying that it's unfair.

你知道，我会说杰夫·贝佐斯是资本主义领域的勒布朗·詹姆斯。

You know, I I would argue that Jeff Bezos is LeBron James of capitalism.

他凭借非凡的天赋和非凡的奉献精神取得了今天的成就。

He he achieved what he did through immense talent, incredible commitment.

你可能会说，嗯，他上了普林斯顿大学，你也可以说，勒布朗是天生的。

And you could say, well, you know, he he went to Princeton, and you could say, well, LeBron was born.

我不知道他有多高。

I don't know how tall he is.

非常高，运动天赋远胜于我。

Very tall, significantly more athletically inclined than I am.

他拥有巨大的身体优势，相对于我来说，还有巨大的性格优势。

He had just enormous advantages, physical advantages relative to me, and then he had enormous character advantages.

这些因素共同造就了一个人，他是自己领域里的绝对大师，也是最伟大的天才之一。

And and those conspired together to produce somebody that is an absolute virtuoso and one of the great talents of what they do.

我认为，观察当前资本主义的状况时，对我来说有两件困难的事。

And I think one of the hard things for me about watching the state of capitalism at the moment is two things.

第一，我们似乎将成功污名化，认为这种成功是因为游戏规则不公平。

One, we seem to vilify or imagine that that success is achieved because the playing field isn't fair.

但我不这么认为。

And I don't think that's the case.

资本主义的世界是一个残酷的竞争场。

It is a vicious competitive playing field, the world of capitalism.

但我认为，真正该受责备的是，我们竟然建立了一个在巨大贫困面前却拥有巨大财富的社会。

But I think where there is plenty of blame to go around is the blame that we've somehow achieved a society that has enormous wealth in the face of enormous poverty.

所以问题不在于不平等本身。

So it's not the inequality itself.

而在于在如此财富面前，仍有人们生活在恐惧和贫困之中。

It's that there are people living in fear, and people living in poverty in the face of that wealth.

因此，我希望资本主义能在这一方面做得更好，因为我认为，如果我们只关注不平等，而不是关注贫困——这才是真正的问题——那就错了，正如我所说，NBA里也存在大量不平等。

And so that would be the area that I would wish for capitalism to do a little better job taking care of, because I think that if we only focus on inequality rather than focus on poverty, which is the real issue, because as I said, there's lots of inequality in the NBA.

这不是问题。

It's not a problem.

贫困才是问题。

Poverty is the problem.

而如果我们只关注不平等，最终就会贬低人才。

And that by focusing on inequality, we end up vilifying the talent.

我知道，许多公司的首席执行官——不仅仅是创始人，甚至包括其他领导者——所取得的成就令人钦佩。

And, you know, I stand in awe of what the CEOs of so many companies have achieved, not just the founders, but even the leaders.

今天我刚和可口可乐的负责人詹姆斯·昆西交谈过。

You know, I was speaking today with the the leader of Coca Cola, James Quincy.

他是一位非凡的领导者，充满奉献精神，拥有高尚的价值观。说像他这样的人之所以能崛起，是因为赛场本来就不公平，这种说法有点离谱。

I mean, he is an incredible leader with incredible commitment, great values, and and, you know, to say that, oh, well, you know, the playing field was tilted for somebody like that to to rise anyway.

这有点跑题了，但我想说的是，从戴尔·卡耐基时代以来，我们一直在削弱这样一种认知：运气、非凡的天赋、极其刻苦的努力和卓越的能力，在我们的体系中结合在一起，能产生怎样的成果。

That's a little bit of a wild divergence, but I I think this going all the way back to Dale Carnegie, this this sort of undermining of the degree to which, you know, the combination of luck with enormous talent, with incredible hard work, with incredible ability can manifest in our system.

我希望我们能像庆祝运动员那样去庆祝他们。

I wish we could celebrate them the way we celebrate our athletes.

他们值得拥有。

They deserve it.

你可以说，运动员为创造善意、提供消遣、带来娱乐和赢得钦佩所做的事情，同样也有许多商界人士为我们的国家和世界带来了巨大福祉。

And you could argue that what the athletes do for the creating sort of the goodwill and the diversion and the entertainment and the admiration, you you could argue that that there are people that have succeeded in business in a way that that has done so much good for for our country and for the world.

我希望这种污名化的倾向能够结束，因为它剥夺了这些人作为潜在榜样的资格，而他们本应如此。

And, I would wish that that that this tendency towards vilification, would end because it's tied it takes away those people as potential role models, which they shouldn't be.

让我们短暂休息一下，听听今天赞助商的消息。

Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

当你经营一家小企业时，聘用合适的人才至关重要。

When you're running a small business, hiring the right person can make all the difference.

合适的员工可以提升团队素质，提高生产力，并将你的企业推向新的高度。

The right hire can elevate your team, boost your productivity, and take your business to the next level.

但找到这样的人本身可能就像一份全职工作。

But finding that person can feel like a full time job in itself.

这就是LinkedIn职位的优势所在。

That's where LinkedIn jobs comes in.

他们的新AI助手通过匹配真正符合你需求的顶尖候选人，消除了招聘中的猜测成分。

Their new AI assistant takes the guesswork out of hiring by matching you with top candidates who actually fit what you're looking for.

它不再让你翻阅大量简历，而是根据你的标准筛选应聘者，并突出显示最匹配的人选，帮你节省数小时时间，在合适的人选出现时快速行动。

Instead of sifting through piles of resumes, it filters applicants based on your criteria and highlights the best matches, saving you hours and helping you move fast when the right person comes along.

最棒的是，这些优秀的候选人已经都在LinkedIn上。

The best part is that those great candidates are already on LinkedIn.

事实上，通过LinkedIn招聘的员工，至少留任一年的可能性比通过主要竞争对手招聘的员工高出30%。

In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor.

一次就招对人。

Hire right the first time.

免费在linkedin.com/studybill发布你的职位，然后推广它以使用LinkedIn新AI助手，更轻松快捷地找到顶尖候选人。

Post your job for free at linkedin.com/studybill, then promote it to use LinkedIn jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates.

免费发布职位请访问linkedin.com/studybill。

That's linkedin.com/studybill to post your job for free.

条款和条件适用。

Terms and conditions apply.

每个企业都在问同一个问题。

Every business is asking the same question.

我们如何让AI为我们所用？

How do we make AI work for us?

可能性无穷无尽，而猜测风险太高。

The possibilities are endless and guessing is too risky.

但袖手旁观绝非选项，因为有一件事几乎可以肯定：你的竞争对手已经在行动了。

But sitting on the sidelines is not an option because one thing is almost certain, your competitors are already making their move.

借助甲骨文的NetSuite，你今天就能让AI发挥作用。

With NetSuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work today.

NetSuite是全球超过43,000家企业信赖的头号AI云ERP系统。

NetSuite is the number one AI cloud ERP trusted by over 43,000 businesses.

它是一个统一的套件，将你的财务、库存、电商、人力资源和客户关系管理整合为单一数据源。

It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into a single source of truth.

这种互联互通的数据让AI更聪明，不再只是靠猜测。

That connected data is what makes your AI smarter so it doesn't just guess.

现在，通过NetSuite AI连接器，您可以使用您选择的AI工具连接到您的真实业务数据，提出您曾经有过的所有问题，从关键客户到现金状况，再到库存趋势。

And now with NetSuite AI Connector, you can use the AI of your choice to connect to your actual business data and ask every question you ever had, from key customers to cash on hand to inventory trends.

无论您的公司年收入是数百万还是数亿，NetSuite都能帮助您保持领先地位。

Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you stay ahead of the pack.

现在，NetSuite免费提供商业指南《揭开AI的神秘面纱》，请访问netsuite.com/study获取。

Right now, NetSuite's free business guide, Demystifying AI at netsuite.com/study.

这份指南免费提供，访问netsuite.com/study即可领取。

The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/study.

2026年，将是您终于付诸行动的一年。

2026 is the year you finally do it.

是您不再空想、真正将想法变为现实的一年。

The year you stop sitting on that idea and actually turn it into something real.

我们每个人都有技能、想法和副业，深知它们本可以更上一层楼，但梦想与行动之间的差距，就在于迈出第一步。

We all have skills, ideas, and side projects we know could be more, but the difference between dreaming and doing is taking that first step.

Shopify为您提供在线和线下销售所需的一切工具。

Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person.

数百万人，包括我自己，已经迈出了这一步，从大型家庭品牌转变为刚刚起步的初创创始人。

Millions of entrepreneurs, including myself, have already taken this leap from massive household brands to first time founders just getting started.

使用Shopify，打造你的梦想店铺非常简单。

With Shopify, building your dream store is simple.

你可以从数百个精美的模板中选择，并自定义以匹配你的品牌。

You can choose from hundreds of beautiful templates and customize them to match your brand.

设置也非常快速，内置的AI工具可以撰写产品描述，甚至帮助编辑产品图片。

Setup is fast too, with built in AI tools that write product descriptions and even help edit product photos.

随着你的成长，Shopify也会与你一同成长，帮助你从一个仪表板处理更多订单并拓展到新市场。

And as you grow, Shopify grows with you, helping you handle more orders and expand into new markets all from one dashboard.

在2026年，别再等待，立即用Shopify开始销售。

In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify.

注册每月1美元的试用版，今天就开始在shopify.com/wsb上销售。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/wsb.

前往shopify.com/wsb。

Go to shopify.com/wsb.

那就是 shopify.com/wsb。

That's shopify.com/wsb.

今年年初，让 Shopify 伴你同行，聆听你的第一个声音。

Hear your first this new year with Shopify by your side.

好的。

Alright.

回到节目。

Back to the show.

在许多方面，伯克希尔是一家具有标志性和典范性的教学机构。

In many ways, Berkshire is is a kind of iconic emblematic teaching institution.

对吧？

Right?

它在很多方面向我们展示了资本主义的正确运作方式。

It's there to to show us capitalism done right in many ways.

我的意思是，它当然不是完美的，有时也会有争议，但它的文化非同寻常。

I mean, not that it's flawless necessarily, and, you know, sometimes there are controversies, but it's an extraordinary it's an extraordinary culture.

而且你是独一无二的，因为早在2021年，沃伦就任命你为伯克希尔的董事。

And you're in this unique position of having been named by Warren as a director of Berkshire back in, I think, 2021.

为了给我们的听众一些背景信息，其他董事包括沃伦本人、查理、格雷格·阿贝尔——沃伦的潜在继任者、负责保险业务的阿吉特·贾因、巴菲特的儿子和女儿霍华德和苏珊、我认为是罗恩·奥尔森——他与查理的老律师事务所共同创立，以及肯·钱纳特——他曾任美国运通的首席执行官。

And just to give our listeners some context, the other directors are Warren himself and Charlie and, Greg Abel, the the likely successor to Warren, Ajit Jain who runs the insurance operations, Buffett's son and daughter, Howard and Susan, Ron Olson, I think, who cofounded Charlie's old law firm, Ken Chenault, who was CEO of, American Express.

因此，在某种程度上，这堪称终极精英俱乐部，让你得以一窥资本运作得当的内幕，了解沃伦和查理为何非凡，以及这种文化为何卓越。

So in some ways, it's kind of the ultimate club, it's given you this this insider's view of, capitalism done well and what makes Warren and Charlie extraordinary, what makes the culture extraordinary.

我想知道，你能否分享一下，到目前为止，你的体验如何？你对这种文化有什么样的认识？

And I I wonder if we could get a sense from you of of what the experience has been like so far, what you've learned about the the culture.

我想提一件事，我记得曾与我们的共同朋友布莱恩·劳伦斯讨论过这个话题，他指出，有些非常出色的基金经理根本不会考虑加入伯克希尔董事会，因为要求实在太过严苛。

And one thing I would mention, I remember talking to our mutual friend, Brian Lawrence, about this, and he was pointing out that there are some really great money managers who would never dream of going on the board of Berkshire because the requirements are really difficult.

无论是正式还是非正式的要求，我认为其中一条是，你必须持有相当数量的股票。

Like, whether formally or informally, I think one of them is that you you have to own a significant amount of the stock.

我查阅了持股声明，发现你个人持有的股票价值大约为2000万美元，而且你没有任何股票期权。

And I I was looking at the ownership statements, and I I I think you own something like $20,000,000 worth of the stock personally, you don't get any stock options.

我查看了薪酬结构，惊讶地发现，你担任董事的年薪仅为7000美元。

And I looked at the compensation structure and was stunned to see that you received the princely sum of $7,000 a year to serve on the board.

而且我认为布莱恩告诉我，董事也没有保险保障。

And and I think Brian told me that there's no insurance protection either for the director.

所以你实际上是个人承担风险，既没有从中获利，还得自己掏钱。

So so you're sort of personally exposed, not enriched, and you have to put up your own money.

你能谈谈这种独特的文化吗？你看到了什么？为什么你会愿意这么做？你从中获得了什么？

So can you can you talk about that unique culture and what you've seen about it and why why you would even, wanna do it, and what you've learned from it?

抱歉问了这么长的问题。

And apologies for that long winded question.

哦，不用客气。

Oh, no.

这是个很好的问题。

It's a great question.

这就是为什么7000美元听起来已经很高了。

That's the reason 7,000 sounds high.

我觉得每次会议是700美元，不过我可能记错了。

I think it's $700 a meeting, but I I I could be wrong on that.

你应该是薪酬最高的，我觉得。

You're the highest paid, I think.

我觉得大多数人拿3000，除非我看错了——这完全有可能——我觉得你拿7000一个

I think there most people get 3,000, and unless I misread it, which is eminently possible, I think you get 7,000 a

年。

year.

复核一下。

To review that.

是的。

Yeah.

算清楚吧，老兄。

Figure out, dude.

但没错，我认为伯克希尔不仅是一个典范，更是资本主义应该如何运作的象征。

But, yeah, I believe Berkshire is incredibly important as, well, as an exemplar, but as a icon of how capitalism should work.

对吧？

Right?

换句话说，你知道，一家公司没有走捷径，在几乎每一个方面、每一个行业、每一个子公司中，都致力于实现查理所说的‘获得你应得的’，努力赢得成功。

In other words, you know, a company that hasn't taken shortcuts that in almost every dimension tries in every industry, in every subsidiary, has this goal of, you know, as Charlie would say, getting what you deserve, trying to earn success.

不走捷径。

No shortcuts.

他们希望在监管机构和客户中树立公平交易的声誉。

They want to have the reputation with the regulators, with customers for fair dealing.

你提到了汤姆·盖纳。

And, you know, you you mentioned Tom Gaynor.

当然，马克尔也追求并实现了同样的目标。

Of course, Markel aspires and has delivered in the same way.

顺便说一句，还有其他公司也这么做，但伯克希尔在某种意义上，就是这方面的勒布朗·詹姆斯。

And and by the way, there are other companies that do, but Berkshire is absolutely in a sense the LeBron James of that.

对吧？

Right?

它们的成功规模之大，以及在各个方面持续如此之久的时间跨度。

They there is the sheer scale of the success, the the time horizon over which it's been done in every manner.

因此，我认为伯克希尔对整个体系的福祉而言，是值得珍惜和保护的。

And so I think Berkshire, for the good of the entire system, Berkshire is worth cherishing and protecting.

它几乎是毫无瑕疵的典范。

It is this virtually sort of unsullied example.

当然，只要沃伦和查理还在，维持这种状态就非常容易。

And of course, the maintenance of that is something that is very easy so long as Warren and Charlie are there.

但商业中的惯性法则如此强大，很少有记录能长期保持这种状态。

But the laws of inertia in business and are, you know, are such that there are few records of that persisting.

沃伦和查理非凡的一点在于，他们每年、每个决策都以持久为目标，努力让继任者的工作更轻松，构建一个稳固的框架。

And one of the extraordinary characteristics of Warren and Charlie is how much every year, every decision they do with the goal of having it persist, of making their successor's jobs easier, trying to lay out a framework.

因此，我认为董事会的责任绝不能以任何方式介入业务运营。

So I think the responsibility of the directors will never be to be in any way involved in the business.

它的职责在于保护这种文化——这种文化以其独立性、对所有常规捷径的拒绝而卓然出众，也拒绝了那些可能让如此卓越的美德逐渐沦陷的制度性偏见。

It will be in a sense protecting this this culture that really is a culture that is stands out for its independence, its rejection of all of the conventional ways that people begin to take shortcuts or begin to fall prey to all of the institutional biases that can cause something that's so excellent in its virtue.

像不支付董事薪酬或仅支付极少报酬这样的小事，都是在试图强化这种文化。

So little things like not paying the directors or paying them very little, that is a symbol that is trying to reinforce a culture.

因此，如果你有一个标准，要求董事必须个人持有大量股票，并且愿意无偿服务。

And so if you have a criteria that says directors have to own a lot of stock personally and they have to be willing to serve for no compensation.

那么，他们为什么要这么做呢？

Well, why are they doing it?

因为他们关心这家公司。

They're doing it because they care about the place.

这是一种非凡的利害一致。

That's an incredible alignment.

我不认为还有其他公司有这种标准。

I don't there is no other company that has that sort of criteria.

所以我认为，伯克希尔的重要性在于，它提醒我们事物本应如此。

So I think Berkshire is important for the reminder that it is of how things ought to be.

它是一个绝佳的标杆，其他公司可以以此为参照。

And it's a great sort of benchmark against which other companies, you know, can something that they can look towards.

所以，无论如何，我认为这样做的原因在于，它作为一个典范极为珍贵，而且作为提醒也很有价值——当一种理念认为企业贪婪、CEO恶劣、资本主义有害、公司获利而股东以牺牲其他利益相关者为代价时。

So anyway, I I think the reason to do it is because it is so precious as an example, and I think it's good for the system as a reminder that when there's an ethos that says, you know, corporate greed, CEOs bad, capitalism bad, companies get rich, shareholders get rich at the expense of other constituencies.

这是一场零和游戏。

It's a zero sum game.

所以如果股东获利了，那一定是以牺牲其他利益相关者为代价的，比如员工、社区、环境、客户，而伯克希尔和其他公司并不孤单，但正如我所说，伯克希尔是最极端的例子——他们并非通过牺牲其他利益相关者来实现成功的。

So if shareholders grow, they must have somehow profited at the expense of another constituency, employees, communities, the environment, customers, and Berkshire and and other companies that they aren't alone in this, but they as I say are the most extreme, you know, they they they achieved not at the expense of any other constituency.

他们通过为世界创造价值，并以透明的方式实现了自身的成长。

They built themselves by by creating value in the world and then doing so in a transparent way.

所以这不仅仅是业务本身，还包括治理结构、沟通方式和教育理念。

So it wasn't just the business, it was also the governance, it was also the communication, the education.

因此我认为这非常值得捍卫，而且当沃伦和查理不在了之后，这将会变得困难得多。

So I think it is really worth fighting for, and I think it'll be much, much, much harder when Warren and Charlie aren't here.

这就是我对它唯一不满意的地方。

And so that's my one thing that I don't like about it.

我想你和我之前讨论过这个，但你知道，我成长于一个‘先工作，后娱乐’的家庭。

I think you and I have talked about this, but, you know, I'm from a family of, you know, work before play.

这是我父亲常说的话，也是我们家族的信条。

That was my expression of my father's that it's in our family.

我们一直都在说这一点。

It's just we say it all the time.

这就像奶奶的规矩：先吃西兰花，才能吃甜点。

And, you know, it's granny's rule, eat your broccoli, then you get dessert.

而伯克希尔现在的情况恰恰相反。

And Berkshire is serving Berkshire right now is the opposite.

你先吃甜点。

You get your dessert first.

你先玩。

You get to play first.

你可以聆听沃伦和查理的教诲。

You get to listen to Warren and Charlie.

你可以安心参加每一次董事会会议，坚信他们所知的每一件事都以最高的道德标准、充分的透明度和对股东的坚定支持来执行。

You get to go to each board meeting absolutely secure in the conviction that anything that is being done that they know about is being done in absolutely the highest to the highest ethical standards and with deep transparency and advocacy for shareholders.

而且

And

实际参加董事会是什么感觉？

What's it like actually being at a board meeting?

我的意思是，对于我们这些永远无法亲历这种内部体验、近距离观察的人来说，那种氛围和能量到底是什么样的？我不是指什么国家机密，而是真正意义上的现场氛围和感受。

I mean, for those of us who will never have this experience of being on the inside and actually watching up close, like, what's actually I mean, not in terms of state secrets, but in terms of actually the dynamic and the energy of What's actually what's that experience like?

如果你是一位长期股东，也像你一样参加过年度股东大会，从某种意义上说，我觉得差别不大，因为会议的语气非常坦诚。

It's it it is you know, if you were a longtime shareholder and you've attended annual meetings as you have, in one way, I would say not that different because the tone is completely candid.

唯一的区别是，在年度股东大会上，我作为股东参加了三十多年的会议，感受到的是沃伦在说：‘你有什么想法？’

The only difference is at the annual meeting, I think the mindset that I experienced as a shareholder going to thirty years worth of annual meetings was Warren saying, what's on your mind?

你们是股东。

You're the shareholders.

我会回答你们的问题。

I'll answer your questions.

而在董事会会议室里，我的出发点是：我想让你知道，我认为什么是重要的，如果我们俩的角色互换的话。

And I think in the boardroom, the orientation is I want you to know what I think is important if our seats were reversed.

我认为沃伦通过年报向股东传达这些观点，而董事会内部唯一的不同在于，他认为有必要确保，比如在子公司ABC存在某些问题时，他会主动提出来，并沟通他对世界局势的看法。

Now I think Warren does that through the annual report for shareholders, and I think the only difference is within the boardroom, I think he has a view that he needs to make sure if there's, you know, an issue in, you know, subsidiary ABC that he is surfacing it and communicating what he's thinking is going on in the world.

你知道吧？

You know?

但方向完全是一样的。

So but but the direction is exactly the same.

我会说，这种深度以及对我来说这份礼物的双重意义。

I would say the depth and the fact that to me the great gift is twofold.

第一，沃伦会告诉你他目前关注什么，他认为在本次会议上，哪些问题是对伯克希尔至关重要的。

One, Warren tells you what he is focused on, and he thinks in this moment at this meeting, are the issues that he thinks are very important for Berkshire.

他当然会回答任何人的提问，只要有人提问。

He obviously takes questions as long as anybody has them.

但我想说的第二点，与其说是不同，不如说是一个令人惊讶的发现——从外部来看，你不会想到美国还有哪位CEO能像沃伦和查理那样如此深刻而广泛地思考风险。

But I think the second thing that I would say is different, not different, but is just was an incredible surprise is too strong a word, but you would know from the outside that there is no CEO in America that thinks about risk in a more profoundly broad way than Warren and Charlie.

我的意思是，沃伦会思考，比如资本市场停摆的可能性。

I mean, they Warren thinks about, you know, the capital market shutting down.

他会考虑核武器和生物恐怖主义，而在年度股东大会上，我们只能瞥见这些思考的一角。

You know, he thinks about nuclear weapons and bioterrorism, and and in annual meetings, are glimpses of that.

我认为，坐在这里倾听时，我注意到的一点是，他如何深刻地构建并希望这个企业具备韧性，以应对那些普通CEO或普通投资者根本无法想象的情境。

I think the one thing I would say I've seen sitting there listening is how profoundly he structures and wants the enterprise structured to make sure it's resilient to to in scenarios that are so far outside of the thinking of a normal CEO or a normal investor.

他真正是在打造一个能够经受几乎所有 conceivable 情境考验的体系，能够亲眼见证这种思维方式，是一种莫大的荣幸。

He is really building something that he wants to last through almost any conceivable scenario, and it is an incredible privilege to just see that mind at work in that way.

所以，一切方向都清晰地呈现在阅读年报和参加股东会的过程中。

So everything is directionally laid out just sitting in a reading the annual report and sitting in a shareholders meeting.

一切都是一致的。

Everything is is the same.

只是更多而已。

It's just more of it.

正如我所说，尤其是风险这一部分，让我感到无比震撼，那种对这家企业深切的 stewardship 感觉。

And and as I say, the risk part in particular is is something that I've been was just have been incredibly struck by, that sense of profound stewardship for this enterprise.

在年度股东大会上，这一点非常引人注目。

It was very striking in the annual meeting.

我总是会在手机上记很多笔记。

I I I always take a lot of notes in my phone.

我坐在那里疯狂地做笔记。

I'm sort of sitting there madly taking notes.

我写下来的一件事是，他说：我们绝不会做出任何会毁灭我们的决定。

And, one of the things I wrote down was when he said, we'll never make a decision that kills us.

他说：我们会让自己保持比任何人都更好的状态。

And he said, we'll we'll we keep ourselves in better shape than anybody else.

所以我认为，这种对韧性的执着对我们所有人来说都极具价值。

So I think that sense of the obsession with resilience is is hugely valuable for for all of us.

我的意思是，我们无法复制他的智慧，但这种专注于韧性、专注于生存的意识，对我来说对任何普通投资者都至关重要。

I mean, we we can't we can't clone his brilliance, but that focus on resilience on surviving anything seems to me hugely important for any regular investor.

当他在年度股东大会上谈到公司文化时，另一个给我留下深刻印象的点是，他说：我们不受华尔街的压力影响。

And then the other thing that that came across massively for me when he was talking about the culture of the company at the AGM, he said, we feel no pressure from Wall Street.

我们不做投资者电话会议。

We don't do investor calls.

我们为在座的每个人工作，而不是为那些关心季度预测的人工作。

We're working for the people in this room, not people who care about quarterly estimates.

然后他谈到，如果公司对美国有利，我觉得没有理由它不能生存并取得成功。

And then he was talking about how if if the company does good for America, you know, I don't see any reason why it can't survive and do fine.

当时有一个时刻，我想，他说我们会把股东视为合作伙伴，而不是试图从他们身上占便宜。

And there was a moment, I think, where, where he said, we'll we'll we we will look at our shareholders as partners, not seeking an edge on them.

查理说过类似的话，他开始以对待亲戚的方式对待所有人。

And Charlie said something along the lines of he he started treating everyone else the way he treated his relatives.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，这种不试图从股东身上占便宜的文化是一个极其深刻的理念。

And that to me was such a profound idea, just just that culture of not wanting to get an edge over your shareholders.

你能谈谈这一点吗？

Can you talk about that?

因为这在我看来正是问题的核心——运营时甚至不试图优化，因为你明白许多股东的大部分净资产都投入了这只股票。

Because that seems to me to be the absolute essence of the thing, like running it with not even trying to optimize because you know that a lot of your shareholders have so much of their net worth in the stock, for example.

我认为你说得完全对，他们运营时假设伯克希尔就是股东唯一的资产，因为在很多方面，它确实如此。

Well, I think you're you're absolutely right that they run it assuming that Berkshire is the only asset of the shareholders, because in many ways, it really was.

因此，这种家庭、医生和那些充满信任的人之间的伙伴关系精神。

And so that partnership ethos of the family and the doctors and the people that that, had faith.

你知道，现在很大一部分股票已经被指数基金持有，比如当它被纳入标普500指数之后。

You know, the obviously, a significant amount of the stock is owned by indexes now, you know, when it was added to the S and P 500 and so on.

我认为，沃伦和查理曾经说过，他们不会在这些价位买入股票。

I think there have been times when Warren and Charlie have said we would not buy the stock at these levels.

顺便说一句，事后来看，你可以说他们错了。

And by the way, you could argue in hindsight they were wrong.

你本该一直买入这只股票。

You should always have bought the stock.

他们也曾在某些时候表示，你知道，他们在当前价位买入股票。

And there are times when they say, you know, at you know, we are buying stock at this level.

所以我认为，他们希望股东能够获得足够信息，自己做出决策，这一点依然成立。

So I think that they want shareholders to have the information to make their own decisions, so I think that that remains true.

我认为，那种将伯克希尔视为最终所有者唯一资产的文化，将会长期延续下去。

I think that the, you know, I think that the the that culture, I think, of viewing it as the only asset of the end owners, I think that will persist for a long time.

你知道的？

You know?

我想你可能听过我这么说，我怀疑我们俩中任何一个都叫不出标准石油的第三任CEO的名字。

I I think you've you've heard me sort of say that, you know, I I doubt either one of us could name this third CEO of Standard Oil.

我以前常说，除了也是洛克菲勒之外，没人能说出第二任CEO的名字。

I I used to say nobody could name the second CEO except it was also a Rockefeller.

但第三任或第四任呢。

But but the third or the fourth.

然而，标准石油在大约十一个世纪里都是美国最有价值的公司，或者至少是前三名之一。

And yet Standard Oil was, you know, the most valuable company in America for something like eleven decades or certainly one of the top three.

我认为，这种思维方式对于理解伯克希尔、它的构建方式以及沃伦正在做的事情是正确的。

And I think that's the right mindset for thinking about Berkshire, how it's built, what Warren is trying to do.

我们叫不出第三任CEO的名字，但约翰·D。

We you couldn't name the third CEO, but what John D.

洛克菲勒留下的是一批具有长久寿命、能长期产生现金流的资产。

Rockefeller left was a collection of assets that had very long lives and would produce cash for a long period of time.

那是他留下的第一件事。

That was that was the first thing that he left.

建造好，然后留下它。

Built and then left it.

第二件事是一种文化，你知道，华尔街以著名的模式在埃克森玩他们的游戏，政府更迭，但我们是埃克森。

The second thing was a culture that said, you know, Wall Street plays their games famously at Exxon, governments come and go, but we're Exxon.

对于伯克希尔来说，这可能说得太过了，但核心理念是我们自己做决定，并基于工程与经济的结合与交汇来做决策。

That may be too strong for Berkshire certainly, but but in this idea that that we make our own decisions and we make them based on the combination and the confluence of engineering and economics.

所以，这不是政治。

So there is no it's not politics.

这不是舆论。

It's not perception.

这不是趋势。

It's not trends.

这是我们的方式——这是一种严谨的工程文化。

It's these are how we it was a rigorous engineering culture.