RWH039：与丹尼尔·戈尔曼探讨最佳表现

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好了，我们继续回到节目。

All right, back to the show.

在我们深入探讨这些方面并找出如何在这四个领域提升表现之前，我想先退一步问问您：过去三十年间，数据如何向您证明了这些情商优势和技能对个人成功与效能至关重要？

Before we dive into these things in some detail and figure out how to improve our performance in each of these four domains, I just wanted to step back and ask you about really how the data has proven to you over the last three decades that these emotional intelligence strengths and skills actually matter greatly in terms of personal success and effectiveness.

因为当您刚开始时，我的感觉是，这只是一个您的直觉。

Because when you started out, my sense is that this was a hunch that you had.

那是一种明智的猜测，但当时你还没有数据。

It was a sort of intelligent guess, but you didn't have the data.

而如今，你已经有了大量研究和数据，对于一位前《纽约时报》的科学记者和科学作家来说，这些数据实际上印证了你当初的直觉。

And it seems like now you have an enormous number of studies and data that actually, for a former science journalist at the New York Times and the like, and a science author, give you kind of confirmation of what your hunch was.

这完全正确。

That's a 100% correct.

当我1995年写《情商》这本书时，它听起来合乎直觉，但我们没有任何数据。

When I wrote the book in 'ninety five, emotional intelligence, it made intuitive sense, but we had no data.

直到1990年，第一篇题为《情商》的期刊文章才出现。

It was only in 1990 that the first journal article called Emotional Intelligence appeared.

这篇文章是由我的朋友彼得·萨洛维写的，他现在是耶鲁大学的校长。

Was written by a friend of mine, Peter Salovey, who's now the president of Yale.

当时他还是位初级教授，和一名研究生合写了这篇文章。

Was a junior professor then, and he wrote it with a graduate student.

这篇文章也极具推测性，因为他们当时还没有任何测量情商的方法。

And it was highly speculative too, because they had no measure yet of emotional intelligence.

你知道，智商已经存在了一个多世纪。

You know, IQ has been around for more than a century.

有大量的数据表明，智商是预测你在学校表现好坏的绝佳指标。

There's tons of data showing that IQ is a terrific predictor of how well you'll do in school.

但它却是一个相当差的指标，无法预测你在职业生涯中的人生表现。

Turns out to be a pretty poor predictor of how you'll do in life over the course of your career.

这时候，情商就发挥作用了。

That's where emotional intelligence kicks in.

想想看，对于许多职业，你需要获得MBA或高级学位，比如工程学，你需要一个高级学位。

Consider this, for a lot of professions you need to get an MBA or advanced, say engineering, you need an advanced degree.

这是基本能力、基本门槛。

That's the threshold ability, threshold competence.

但这意味着其他人都和你一样聪明。

But it means everyone else is about as smart as you are.

例如，有一项针对工程师的研究，他们被要求评价其他工程师作为工程师的效能如何。

And for example, there's a study of engineers where they're asked, Rate other engineers on how effective they are as engineers.

你匿名进行评价。

You do it anonymously.

结果发现，这些评分与智商完全没有关联，但与情绪智力高度相关。

And it turned out that those ratings had zero correlation with IQ and very high correlation with emotional intelligence.

你如何管理自己？

How do you manage yourself?

你如何处理人际关系？

How do you handle your relationships?

这才是让你在这一领域出色的原因。

That's what makes you good in this.

我认为，这也是让你在组织中成为领导者——至少是有效领导者——的原因。

And I think that's what makes you a leader in an organization, at least an effective leader.

我认为，这也是让你成为高效团队成员或团队负责人的关键。

I think it's what makes you an effective team member or head of a team.

因此，在你职业生涯和人生历程中，情绪智力的重要性远超过学生时代以智商评分的阶段。

So emotional intelligence matters more over the course of your career and over the course of your life than it does during your school years when you're being graded on IQ.

也很有趣的是，你在新书中提到，尽管我们现在意识到情绪智力的重要性，但MBA课程却几乎没有做任何事情来培养这些情绪智力技能。

It's also really interesting that you mention in this new book that despite the fact that we now realize how important emotional intelligence is, MBA programmes, for example, are really doing next to nothing to develop these emotional intelligence skills.

你引用了一项研究，指出大约十分之四的领导者在这些情绪智力能力上表现薄弱。

And you cite one study that said that I think roughly four in ten leaders had poultry strengths in these emotional intelligence competencies.

我的一位朋友是一家高管猎头公司的研究主管。

A friend of mine was a research head at a executive headhunting firm.

他们对那些看起来非常优秀的候选人——他们推荐的人——为何被解雇感到好奇。

And they were interested in why people who looked really strong as candidates who they recommended got fired.

他们在全球范围内做了一项研究，发现他们的业务专长、分析能力等都表现优异，但最终无一例外地因情绪智力的缺失而被解雇。

They did a study around the world and they found, well, their business expertise, all of that, analytics scaled very high, but they were invariably fired for a lapse in emotional intelligence.

这仅仅说明你需要两者兼备。

And this just tells you that you need both.

不是非此即彼，而是两者都需要。

It's not that it's one or the other, it's bothand.

我认为许多公司，甚至太多公司和组织，都没有理解这一点。

And I think that many companies and too many companies and organizations don't understand this.

在书中，我们探讨了一些公司中这一理念至关重要的杰出案例。

In the book, we look at some outstanding examples of companies where this really matters.

例如，MD安德森癌症中心，这是全球排名第一的癌症治疗机构。

For example, MD Anderson, which is the world's number one place for cancer treatment.

该机构的负责人和培训人员都深知情感智力的价值。

Head of that organization and the training people understand the value of emotional intelligence.

我提到了Progressive公司，其客户关系部门的负责人大力倡导情感智力的重要性。

I mentioned Progressive, where the head of the customer relations unit, espoused the importance of emotional intelligence.

我认为，由业务部门的人员来倡导这一点非常重要，而人力资源或培训发展部门则提供机会来提升它。

It's very important, I think, that someone from the business side champions this, and that HR, or the training and development people, offer an opportunity to strengthen it.

这是一种双赢的五比一组合，我

That's a winning one:fifty combination, I

是的。

Yeah.

你还提到了萨提亚·纳德拉，据说微软在他就职的第一天就大力强调情感智力的重要性。

Satya Nadella, you mentioned as well that Microsoft came in with all guns blazing, talking on his first day, I think, about the importance of emotional intelligence.

是的，他称之为同理心。

Yeah, he called it empathy.

这引出了另一个观点，即组织和企业的文化差异极大。

That raises another point, which is that the culture of organizations and businesses varies tremendously.

在许多组织中，情商已经深深融入其DNA，只是名称不同。

And the emotional intelligence is pretty much embedded in the DNA of many organisations, but by different names.

你可能把同理心称为领导力气场，而不是同理心，但本质上是同一种能力。

You may call empathy leadership presence, not empathy, but it's basically the same skill.

好的。

All right.

接下来，我们将详细探讨这四个领域，讨论如何升级各种工具，以提升我们的自身表现。

Well, we'll go through these four domains in some detail, talking about how to upgrade various tools that we can use to upgrade our own performance.

我们会达到最佳状态。

We become optimal.

我们可能尚未进入心流状态，但到本集结束时，我们一定会达到最佳状态。

We may not be in flow, but we're gonna be optimal by the end of this episode.

第一个领域是自我觉察。

So the first domain is self awareness.

所以在我们开始之前，你能解释一下为什么情绪自我觉察是情绪智力的核心吗？

And so if you could explain even before we start, why emotional self awareness is at the very core of emotional intelligence?

为什么它是激活其他所有技能的基础能力？

Why is it the foundational skill that you need to activate all of the others?

因为其他所有技能都依赖于它。

Because all the others depend on that.

如果你没有自我觉察，就无法很好地管理自己的情绪。

If you don't have self awareness, you can't manage your emotions well.

情绪会突然袭来，你根本察觉不到，甚至意识不到自己正被愤怒或其他情绪控制。

They just come to you, you don't see them coming, you even realize you're in the grip of anger or whatever it is.

同理心也是如此。

Empathy, same thing.

如果你对自己的情绪范围毫无觉察，就不可能察觉到他人的情绪。

If you are tuned out of a range of your own emotion, you're not going to pick it up in other people.

而人际关系技能则依赖于所有这三项。

And the relationship skills depend on all three.

以情绪智力为基础，建立在其他三项之上。

Build on the other three with emotional intelligence as a foundation.

我们有研究显示，例如，在基于情绪智力的12项能力中，这些能力体现在杰出的绩效者和杰出的领导者身上，如果你缺乏自我觉察，你在这12项中的大约10项也会表现不佳。

We have research, for example, that shows of 12 competencies that are based on emotional intelligence, which you see in outstanding performers, outstanding leaders, If you are poor in self awareness, you'll be poor in, let's say, 10 of those 12.

你可能在一两项上表现不错。

You might be good in one or two.

但如果你自我觉察能力强，你很可能在许多其他方面也表现良好。

But if you're strong in self awareness, you're likely to be good in many, many others.

因此，你提到过一些用于提升自我觉察能力的工具。

So there are various tools that you write about in order to build greater self awareness.

你提到了像内在检查、身体扫描、监控自我对话、命名情绪这些方法。

You mentioned things like an inner check-in, a body scan, monitoring self talk, naming your emotions.

你能更详细地谈谈这些方法吗？

Can you discuss those in a little more detail?

你能给我讲讲，如果你和我以及很多我们的听众一样，觉得自己已经有了一定的自我觉察，但又想进一步提升，你会怎么做吗？

Give me a sense of what you would do if, like me and many of our listeners, you're thinking, well, I'm reasonably self aware, but how do I build this?

我该如何运用你所描述的这些方法呢？

How do I use these techniques that you're describing?

自我觉察需要一种特别的专注力。

So self awareness requires a special kind of attention.

这不仅仅是注意到自己在想什么、感受什么，而是要有一个更高的视角，能够旁观这些想法和情绪的来去。

It's not that we notice what we're thinking and feeling, but we have a platform from which we can kind of be meta and see it come and go.

其中一个有效的工具实际上是耶鲁大学开发的，他们有一个情绪智能中心，专门练习给自己的情绪命名。

And one of the effective tools was actually developed at Yale, they have a center for emotional intelligence, where you practice naming what you're feeling.

结果发现，大多数人在这方面都很差。

It turns out most people are pretty poor at that.

我们通常只有很笼统的词汇，比如‘我现在有点生气了’，但却缺乏更精细的情绪词汇。

We have kind of gross names, I guess I'm getting angry now, but we don't have a kind of refined vocabulary.

但事实证明，由于大脑的工作方式，一旦你能准确命名自己的情绪，大脑皮层中另一个区域就会被激活，而此刻让你如此不安的那部分大脑活动则会减弱。

But it turns out, because of the way the brain functions, that if you can name what you're feeling, then one:thirty the cortex, a different part of the brain activates, and the part that's getting you so upset right now is less active.

所以这是一种方法。

So that's one way.

另一种方法是

Another

他们还开发了一个情绪量表，对吧？

And they developed a mood meter, right?

我是说，有位来自耶鲁大学情绪智力中心的马克·布拉凯特。

I mean, there was this guy, Mark Brackett from Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence.

我记得我儿子亨利有一件T恤，上面画着大约50种不同的情绪。

There's some kind And I remember my son, Henry, has a T shirt that has pictures of something like 50 different moods.

比如，我生气了。

It's like, I am angry.

我很难过。

I am sad.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

你可以变得越来越好。

And you can get better and better.

我认为这些发展方法的核心是练习。

And I think the fundamental of any of these development methods is practice.

就像培养任何技能一样。

It's like developing any skill.

顺便说一下，这非常重要。

By the way, this is very important.

增强情绪智力的方式是通过技能提升。

The way you strengthen emotional intelligence is through skill building.

就像练习高尔夫挥杆一样。

It's like practicing your golf stroke.

这不像学术中的认知学习。

It is not like cognitive learning in academia.

在认知学习中，你已经拥有一个既有的认知理解网络，然后将新知识接入其中，比如七岁孩子学习减法，或五岁孩子学习加法。

In cognitive learning, you have a preexisting network, cognitive network of understanding, and you plug in the new thing, how to subtract if you're a seven year old, or how to add if you're a five year old.

这是一种不同的学习方式。

And that's a different method of learning.

要提升情感智力的任何方面，我认为你必须有动力，这件事对你来说必须很重要。

To get better at any aspect of emotional intelligence, I think you have to be motivated, it has to matter to you.

有时实现这一点的方法是问别人：五年后你希望自己在哪里？

One of the ways this is done sometimes is to ask someone, Where do you want to be in five years?

什么能帮助你达成目标？

What would help you get there?

换句话说，你希望动机来自内心。

In other words, you want the motivation to come from within.

你不希望别人觉得：天啊，我老板说我必须参加这个培训。

You don't want someone to feel like, Oh man, my boss said I have to go to this training.

如果你有这种心态，你根本学不到任何东西。

You're already not going to learn anything if you have.

所以首先，你得真正想要它。

So first of all, you want to want it.

其次，理解什么能帮助你达成目标会有帮助。

Second, it helps to understand what would help you get where you want to go.

第三，你能将它设计成一套具体的行为流程吗？

Third, can you engineer that into a particular behavioral sequence?

我来给你一个常见的例子。

I'll give you a common example.

很多人，尤其是领导者，都是糟糕的倾听者。

Many, many people, particularly leaders, are poor listeners.

所谓糟糕的倾听者，就是你会打断别人，抢着说话。

By poor listener, I mean you interrupt people, you talk over them.

他们来找你谈X事，你却想跟他们谈Y事，而他们才说了十八秒。

They come in, they want to talk to you about X, you want to talk to them about Y, and they talk for eighteen seconds.

顺便说一下，医生和患者之间的情况就是这样的。

This is what they found with physicians and patients, by the way.

然后你就接管了对话。

And then you take over the conversation.

如果你想要成为一个好的倾听者，想要真正地共情并理解对方，这种习惯非常糟糕。

That's terrible habit if you want to be a good listener, if you want to really be able to empathize and understand the other person.

所以你可以设计一个行为序列来练习，比如当有人来找我谈话时——顺便说一下，这可能是你的青少年子女，大脑其实并不真正区分工作和生活——我会先倾听，然后复述我认为他们想表达的意思，再说出我自己的想法。

So you might have a behavioral sequence to practice, like when someone comes to talk to me, and it could be your teenager, by the way, the brain doesn't really distinguish between work and life, I'm going to listen, and then I'm going to say what I think they meant, and then say what I think.

这是一种新的行为，就像学习高尔夫挥杆一样。

That is a new behavior, and it's like learning a golf stroke.

一开始很别扭，感觉不自在。

First it's awkward, it doesn't feel comfortable.

你练习得越多，就越自在，直到形成一个神经里程碑：这种新行为被反复练习，最终变得自动化。

The more you practice, the more comfortable it gets until there's a neural landmark where the new behavior is practiced so much, it becomes automatic.

这意味着大脑的另一个部分接管了它——基底节，也就是习惯形成的地方。

That means a different part of the brain has taken it over, the basal ganglia, where habit is.

这会一直伴随着你。

And that's going to stick with you.

这不会消失。

That's not going to go away.

我经常被邀请去公司做主题演讲等等。

I'm often asked to give keynotes at companies and so on.

我必须说的是，你可能会从中学到一些东西，可能会有点受激励，但不会持久。

And one of the things I have to say is, you may learn something from this, you may get a little motivated, it won't last.

这不是发展，这才是它重要的原因。

This is not development, this is why this matters.

所以你需要在每一个自然出现的机会中练习，比如和你的孩子或办公室里的人，同时寻求支持。

So you need to then Another step is practice at every naturally occurring opportunity, like with your teenager or with someone in your office, and get support.

如果你能找到一位教练，那就太好了，有人能帮助你，因为你肯定会遇到糟糕的日子，比如你搞砸了，又回到了老样子，你感到压力，等等。

If you can get a coach, great, someone who's going to help you, because you're sure to have bad days, the day you blew it, I went back to my old way, I was pressured, whatever.

然后你可以把这当作一次学习的机会。

Then you use that as a learning opportunity.

下次这种情况发生时，你可以做些什么来确保自己做对了？

What can you do next time this happens to be sure that you do it right?

但如果你不断练习，就会达到那个神经学上的临界点，让行为变得自动。

But if you practice, you're going to hit that neural landmark where it becomes automatic.

我觉得你在这本书里谈到的关于成为更好、更积极的倾听者这个话题非常有趣，你提到一个技巧：在困难的情境中，比如你试图理解对方的立场时，你应该认真听完对方的话，然后用自己的话复述一遍你听到的内容，并问：‘我理解对了吗？’

I thought it was very interesting on this subject of becoming a better, more active listener that you said in the book, you described this one technique where you said in difficult situations, for example, where you're trying to understand the other person's perspective, you should really hear the person out, then repeat back to them in your own words what you heard, and then ask, Did I get that right?

还是我理解错了？

Or did I misunderstand?

然后让对方自由表达。

And then let them speak freely.

杰里米，是的，因为这样一来，对方就会感到被倾听、被理解。

Jeremy Yeah, because the other person is then feeling heard, feeling felt.

这对对方来说非常重要。

That's very important to that person.

这意味着他们知道你在认真关注，你尊重他们。

It means they know you're paying attention, you respect them.

即使你可能不同意他们的观点，你也想了解他们的立场，这会让对方感到被认可。

Even if you may not agree with them, you want to know what their position is and that validates the other person.

如果你是领导者，这一点非常重要。

If you're the leader, that's very important.

顺便说一下，根据我们的研究，关于团队的一个发现是：谷歌在分析他们的顶尖团队时，称之为心理安全感，这正是我的同事凡妮莎·德里斯科特研究高绩效团队时所说的‘归属感’——当你感到自己属于这里时。

One of the things, by the way, about groups that we find in our research is that at Google, when they looked at their top teams, they called it psychological safety in the work of my colleague Vanessa Driscott, who studies high performing groups, she calls it belonging, if you feel you belong.

所以，例如，如果你的组织有多元化和包容性的目标——如今许多组织都有——仅仅拥有与人口总体比例相符的X数量的Y群体是不够的。

So for example, if you have a diversity and inclusion goal in your organization, as many do these days, it's not enough just to have X number of Y people because that's what the general demographic is in the population.

这并不意味着那些人真的感到自己属于这里。

That doesn't mean that those people feel they belong.

更重要的是要热情接纳、认真倾听、保持尊重，并让那个人感受到：是的，我属于这里。

It's much more important to be welcoming, to listen, to be respectful, and give that person a sense that, yes, I belong here.

这才能真正实现目标。

That really accomplishes the goal.

所以，为了总结关于自我觉察作为基础技能的这个观点，你还提到了其他一些工具。

So to finish off this idea of self awareness as this foundational skill, there are other tools you mentioned.

例如，做一些检查或扫描身体，我当然知道著名神经科学家安东尼奥·达马西奥曾谈到过对身体感受的觉察。

For example, doing some kind of check-in or scanning your body, which I And obviously the famous neuroscientist, Antonio Damasio, talked about having a sense of your somatic markets.

你稍微谈一下这个吗？

You talk a little bit about that?

因为这与投资也密切相关——最优秀的投资者往往能强烈感知到身体在告诉他们当前的状态：是否情绪化、过于恐惧、过度兴奋、饥饿、嫉妒，或类似的情况。

Because this also very much relates to investing where the best investors have this really powerful sense of what their body is telling them about the state that they're in and whether they're in a state where they're maybe too emotional, maybe they're too fearful, or maybe they're overexcited, or they're hungry, or they're jealous or something like that.

因此，他们必须关注自己的身体和情绪，以便知道何时处于不利于做出理性决策的不良状态。

And so they have to tune into their bodies and their emotions so that they know when they're in a suboptimal state to make a rational decision.

身体标记本质上就是感知身体的感受。

The somatic markers is basically just sensing how your body is feeling.

在这里，了解自己的触发点很有帮助，即在什么情况下更容易进入不利于做出良好决策的状态，因为投资者必须保持清醒。

And here it's helpful to know what your triggers are, when you're more likely to get into a state that isn't optimal for making a good decision, because an investor has to be clear at it.

因此，你希望在情绪失控前就察觉到它的苗头。

And so you want to sense something building before it takes you over.

可能是：‘我又感到胃里不舒服了，我开始焦虑了’，或者‘我的膝盖发紧，我生气了。'

Might be, Oh, I got that feeling in my stomach again, I'm getting anxious, or I've got that sense in my knees and I'm getting angry.

我认为这无疑是一种自我觉察的技能。

I think that is a skill of self awareness for sure.

它能帮助你意识到自己即将陷入情绪主导的状态。

That helps you know when you're about to get into a state where your emotions are taking you over.

你绝不应该在这些状态下做决定，更不用说投资决策了，因为那不是你清醒理智的判断。

You should never make a decision, let alone an investment decision from those states, because it's not your clear headed decision.

自我觉察的另一个维度涉及你的自我认知与他人对你的看法是否一致。

Another dimension of self awareness has to do with how your sense of yourself matches with how people see you.

这意味着你需要从他人那里获取反馈，通常是匿名的。

And that means getting input from other people, usually anonymously.

很少有人会坦率地告诉你：你是这种人，或者我觉得你太紧张了，或者你太容易生气。

Very few people will be candid with you and say, You're this kind of person, or I think you're too uptight or you get angry too many.

人们并不想告诉你这些。

People don't want to tell you that.

他们希望维持关系，尤其是如果他们是你的下属的话。

They want to preserve the relationship, particularly if they work for you.

所以，无论如何，有很多评估方法，被称为360度评估。

So anyway, there are many measures, they're called three sixty degree measures.

比如情绪与社会能力问卷，由科恩弗里公司管理，它会匿名评估人员。

Have one, the emotional and social competence inventory, it's managed by Korn Ferry, and it evaluates people anonymously.

你可以选择大约六到十位你尊重、了解你且能匿名为你打分的人，这样他们可以完全坦诚。

You get to pick, say, the half dozen or 10 people whose opinions you respect, who know you well, who are going to rate you anonymously so they can be totally honest.

你不会知道他们具体说了什么，但你会得到一个综合结果。

You won't know what they said about you, but you get an aggregate.

它会给你一个关于你优势和不足的评估画像。

And it gives you a profile of what your strengths and limits are.

然后你可以将这个结果与你对自己的评价进行对比。

And you can match that with how you rate yourself.

结果表明，这种匹配度越高，领导者就越有效。

And it turns out the better that match, the more effective a leader will be.

好的。

Okay.

所以自我觉察方面，我想还有一个方面是监控你的内心独白，这样你就能发现什么时候你在苛责自己。

So self awareness also, I guess there's also this aspect of monitoring your self talk so you can see when you're beating yourself up.

我昨天发现了这一点。

I found this yesterday.

我昨天和前天为这次面试做的准备一团糟。

I made a hash of my preparation yesterday and the day before for this interview.

我用了一种非常低效的方式，结果不得不花好几个小时重做某些事情。

And I just did it in a really inefficient way that meant I had to go and redo something for several hours.

昨天我发现自己真的在对着自己骂脏话，心里想：你这个蠢货，还加了不少脏字。

And I found myself yesterday literally swearing at myself and being like, you idiot, but with swear words added.

我觉得这些年我越来越能意识到，当我对自己进行这种暴力的内心对话时，这是一个信号，说明有些地方不对劲。

And it's really, I think I've become more aware over the years of when my sort of violent self talk towards myself is a cue to be aware of, something's going on here, something is amiss.

你能谈谈这个吗？

Can you talk about that?

因为这让人非常不舒服，还稍微有点尴尬，但我认为这非常重要

Because it's very uncomfortable and it's slightly one:fifty) embarrassing, but I think it's such an

对我们的重要洞察

important insight into our

自我意识的另一个方面是监控你对自己说的话。

Another aspect of self awareness is monitoring what you're telling yourself.

在认知疗法中，他们说了一句很棒的话：你不必相信你的想法。

In cognitive therapy, they say something wonderful, You don't have to believe your thoughts.

换句话说，那些诸如‘你搞砸了’、‘你是个笨蛋’的想法根本没有帮助。

In other words, some of those thoughts, like, You really blew it, you're an idiot, just are not helpful.

而像‘我没做好，让我再试一次’这样的想法则是有帮助的。

Some of those thoughts like, I didn't do that well, let me try again, is helpful.

你需要区分你的想法是在帮助你还是在伤害你。

And you want to make the distinction between whether your thoughts are helping you or hurting you.

自我批评通常是在伤害你，但你能看到自己哪里可以改进，这则是在帮助你。

And the self criticism is generally hurting you, but the ability to see where you could improve is helping you.

我觉得这像是一种古老的方法，我们可能曾经因为让老师和父母失望，就狠狠责备自己，结果反而进步了，之后大家又都说我们很棒。

I feel like it was some ancient technique that we figured out where probably we had disappointed our school teachers and our parents, then we beat the hell out of ourselves and we improved, And then everyone told us we were great after all.

所以我们小时候不知怎么就内化了这样一个观念：只要我足够苛责自己，我就会变得非常优秀。

And so we somehow, when we were young, we internalized this idea of, if I just beat myself up enough, I'm gonna be really good.

然后到了人生后期，你会忍不住想：真的吗？

And then and then you get to a point later in life where you're like, really?

我真的必须这样生活吗？

Do I actually have to live that way?

我希望你无论如何都能达到这个觉悟。

I hope you get to that point anyway.

至少现在我会注意到自己正在这样做。我的意思是，我记得西尔维娅·博斯坦，我相信你和她很熟，那位伟大的老佛教导师。我记得听她讲课时她说：‘对不起，亲爱的，你现在正承受着痛苦。’

At least now I notice that I'm doing it, and it's a way I I mean, I remember Sylvia Bourstein, who I'm sure you're you're friendly with, the great old Buddhist teacher, who I remember listening to her giving a talk where she said, I'm sorry, sweetheart, you're suffering right now.

她会这样对自己说，而我也有类似的感受。

And she would say this to herself, and that's a little bit how I feel in that.

这是一种让我停下来的方式，说：‘天啊，真抱歉。’

It's a way of me pausing and saying, oh, God, I'm sorry.

你现在正承受着痛苦。

You're right now.

这真是一个很好的解药，因为它表明你具有自我觉察，能够意识到自己正在苛责自己。

That's really wonderful as an antidote because what it says is that you're, a, self aware, you're recognizing when you're beating yourself up.

而且，你还在运用一种解药，那就是对自己温柔以待，而不是继续苛责自己。

And B, you're applying an antidote, which is being kind to yourself instead of beating yourself up.

这是一种非常棒的内在技能，需要不断练习，它也是一种自我觉察的技能，因为你只有在意识到自己的内心对话具有破坏性时，才能做到这一点。

That's a wonderful skill, internal skill to practice, and it's a skill of self awareness because you can only do it if you recognize the moments when your self talk is being destructive.

如果我可以提一下一本我觉得非常棒的书，可能你也很熟悉，克里斯汀·内夫合著的《自我慈悲练习册》，我认为她确实是德克萨斯大学奥斯汀分校的一位学者，或者说是奥斯汀的德克萨斯大学。

And if I can put in a mention of a book that I actually think is terrific, again, probably by someone you know, Kristin Neff co wrote this book, The Self Compassion Workbook, that I think it's Again, she's an academic at the University of Austin in Texas, or Texas in Austin.

她是一位佛教修行者，也是一位心理学家，等等。

And she's a Buddhist student and a psychologist and the like.

我觉得她非常聪明地运用了这些温和的自我方法，我认为这些方法比我们成长过程中学到的自我贬损方式更能让人持久地保持健康。

And I just think she's really smart about using these gentle methods with yourself that I think make you more sustainable than using the self lacerating approach that some of us learned growing up.

丹尼尔，我曾经和达赖喇嘛进行过一次对话，他听到西方人对自己充满蔑视、憎恨自己时，感到非常震惊。

Daniel I was once in a dialogue with the Dalai Lama when he was shocked to hear that people in the West were contemptuous of themselves, hated themselves.

在他的文化中，这种情况其实并不常见。

In his culture, that wasn't really known.

他感到非常震惊，并说：'你们需要在英语中创造一个新词。'

And he was shocked and he said, You need a new word in English.

那是上世纪80年代的事了。

This was in the '80s.

这个词就是自我同情。

The word is self compassion.

而这正是内夫后来所倡导的。

And that's exactly what Neff has then taken up.

我不确定她是否知道这件事。

I don't know that she knew about that.

我推荐一本我妻子写的书，塔拉·贝内特·科尔曼的《情绪炼金术》，书中探讨了十种最常见的自我挫败情绪模式，以及如何应对它们，如何运用这种自我觉察来识别这些模式何时在控制你，并改变你的行为和对自我的看法。

I recommend a book by my wife actually, Tara Bennett Coleman, Emotional Alchemy, which talks about the 10 most common self defeating emotional patterns and what to do about them, how to bring this kind of self awareness to seeing when they're taking us over and then changing what we do and how we think about ourselves.

我觉得这非常有力量。

Think that's very powerful.

是的。

Yeah.

我附议。

I'll second that.

她太棒了。

She's terrific.

我有这本书，也多次见过她，这都要感谢你，她真的很出色。

I have the book and have met her many times, thanks to you, and she's terrific.

而且值得一提的是，塔拉在帮助塑造索克尼仁波切关于如何应对这些负面情绪的教诲方面发挥了非常重要的作用。

And also, it's worth saying that Tara has played a very important role in helping to shape Sokhni Rinpoche's teachings about how to deal with these difficult emotions.

我上次请你上播客时，我们曾与你和索克尼仁波切——这位伟大的藏传佛教大师、禅修大师和导师——讨论过这个方面，即如何应对他所说的‘美丽的怪物’，而塔拉在她的书中也经常谈到这一点。

And so the last time that I had you on the podcast was when we chatted with you and Sokni Rinpoche, this great Tibetan Buddhist master, meditation master and teacher, about this aspect of how to deal with what he calls your beautiful monsters and what Tara talks about a lot in her book.

这些方法都是威廉，用来提升自我觉察的。

And these are all methods, William, for enhancing self awareness.

是的。

Yeah.

那么我们来谈谈第二个领域，我希望能比其他领域更深入地探讨一下，因为我认为它非常实用，对我们来说至关重要，那就是这些自我管理的技巧。

And so let's get to domain two, which in a way I'd like to dwell on in more depth than some of the others, because I think it's so practical and so important to us, which is these techniques for self management.

那么，你能先解释一下，为什么这种情绪上的自我掌控如此关键吗？

And so can you start by giving us a sense of why this kind of emotional self mastery is so critical?

特别是当你进入一个非常依赖认知能力的领域，比如投资、写作或教学时，为什么情绪的自我掌控与平衡如此重要？

Particularly if you're going into a field where cognitive skill counts very heavily, like investing or writing or teaching, Why is emotional self mastery and balance so critical?

让我们反过来想一想，看看你在效率最低、做出糟糕决策时的状态——那往往是情绪在主导你的思考方式。

So let's reverse engineer that a moment and look at the times and the state you get into when you're least effective, when you make bad decisions, it's times when your emotions are driving how you think.

情绪在自我掌控方面至关重要，原因有几点。

Emotions are very critical in terms of self mastery for several reasons.

首先，情绪会引导你的注意力。

One is that emotions direct your attention.

你感到不安、愤怒或焦虑的事情，正是大脑会把你的注意力拉向的地方。

The thing you're upset about, the thing you're angry about, the thing you're anxious about is where the brain shifts your attention.

如果你要做出明智的决定，你就需要摆脱这种干扰。

If you're going to make a good decision, you want to be clear of that.

你不希望被情绪左右，而希望保持平衡。

You don't want to be emotionally driven, you want to be balanced.

并不是说你完全不需要情绪，当然你需要，但你不希望情绪控制你。

It's not that you don't want your emotions at all, of course you do, but you don't want them to take you over.

你不希望情绪主导你对任何事情的思考方式。

You don't want them to be driving how you think about anything.

因此，情绪自我管理——这是情商第二领域的核心——意味着一方面你能很好地应对令人不安的情绪。

And so emotional self management, which is key in this second domain of emotional intelligence, means that on the one hand you can manage upsetting emotions well.

实验室中对韧性的定义是：从情绪达到峰值困扰恢复到平静清晰状态所需的时间。

The definition in the lab of resilience is the time it takes you to recover from peak upset to back to calm and clear.

你恢复得越快，就越有韧性。

And the faster you do that, the more resilient you are.

你无法决定自己会感受到什么、何时感受到，或感受有多强烈，这些情绪会从大脑深处自发涌现。

You can't determine what you're gonna feel or when you're gonna feel it or how strongly you'll feel it, those emotions come unbidden from a deep part of the brain.

但你可以决定在感受到情绪之后如何行动。

But you can decide what you do once you feel it.

这就是自我管理的用武之地。

That's where self management comes in.

这里有很多方法，但不仅仅是应对干扰性情绪或分散注意力的情绪，还要调动积极情绪。

And there are many, many methods here, but it's not just handling disruptive emotions, distracting emotions, It's also marshaling the positive emotions.

就像记住对你重要的事情。

It's like remembering what matters to you.

你的长期目标是什么？

What's your long term goal here?

尽管一天中充满各种干扰，你究竟要去往哪里？

Despite the distractions of the day, where are you heading?

另外，你是否能应对因环境变化而被打乱的时刻？

Also, are you handling the times that you get thrown off because of changing circumstances?

顺便说一句，环境总是在变化。

By the way, circumstances are always changing.

科技、社会趋势，一切都在不断变化。

Tech, social trends, everything is changing all the time.

你需要感知正在发生的事情，但不要被它打乱阵脚。

You need to sense what's going on, but not be thrown by it.

这与保持敏捷、适应变化、在变动中保持清醒，以及持续保持积极心态有关，因为积极的心态是你做出良好决策的最佳心态。

That has to do with being agile, being adaptable, staying clear despite the changes, and then staying positive basically, because a positive frame of mind is your best frame of mind for making good decisions.

并不是说要过度乐观，而是不要沮丧、不要悲观，要明白事情总是在变化，明天又是新的一天。

Don't mean being overly optimistic, but I mean not being downbeat, not being pessimistic, seeing that things always change and tomorrow's a new day.

让我们短暂休息一下，听听今天赞助商的介绍。

Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

不，这并不是你的错觉。

No, it's not your imagination.

风险和监管正在加剧，客户现在要求提供安全证明才能开展业务。

Risk and regulation are ramping up and customers now expect proof of security just to do business.

这就是为什么Vanta是一个变革者。

That's why Vanta is a game changer.

Vanta自动化你的合规流程，将合规、风险和客户信任整合在一个基于人工智能的平台上。

Vanta automates your compliance process and brings compliance, risk, and customer trust together on one AI powered platform.

无论你是为SOC 2做准备，还是在运行企业GRC项目，Vanta都能让你保持安全，并推动交易持续进行。

So whether you're prepping for a SOC two or running an enterprise GRC program, Vanta keeps you secure and keeps your deals moving.

像Ramp和Ryder这样的公司使用Vanta后，审计时间减少了82%。

Companies like Ramp and Ryder spend 82% less time on audits with Vanta.

这不仅仅是更快的合规，更是更多用于增长的时间。

That's not just faster compliance, it's more time for growth.

我喜欢Vanta让合规管理变得轻松，而不会完全占据你的整个工作流程。

I love how Vanta makes it easy to stay on top of your compliance without it taking over your entire workflow.

它简化了通常比实际需要更痛苦的过程。

It just simplifies something that's usually way more painful than it needs to be.

立即前往 vanta.com/billionaires 开始使用。

Get started at vanta.com/billionaires.

访问 vanta.com/billionaires 即可开始。

That's vanta.com/billionaires.

开始一件事不仅困难，而且确实有点可怕。

Starting something new isn't just hard, it's honestly kind of terrifying.

我仍然记得在我真正决定开始做播客之前的那些时刻。

I still remember those moments right before I really committed to podcasting.

半夜醒着，想着如果没人听怎么办？

Lying awake at night thinking, what if no one listens?

如果这彻底失败了怎么办？

What if this completely flops?

或者我只是在白白浪费时间？

Or what if I'm just straight up wasting my time?

尽管克服这种怀疑并不容易，但迈出这一步最终成了我做过的最好的决定之一。

And even though pushing past that doubt was not easy, making the leap ended up being one of the best decisions I've ever made.

我要说的是，当你有合适的工具支持时，这会帮助很大。

And I'll say this, it helps a lot when you have the right tools on your side.

这就是Shopify发挥作用的地方。

And that's where Shopify comes in.

Shopify是数百万企业的电商平台，约占美国电子商务总量的10%，从家喻户晓的大品牌到刚刚起步的新锐品牌都在使用。

Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses and about 10% of all e commerce in The US, from massive household names to brands just getting started.

如果你曾经想过，如果我不知道怎么建店怎么办？

If you've ever thought, What if I don't know how to build a store?

Shopify 提供数百种精美且即用的模板，完美契合您的品牌。

Shopify makes it easy with hundreds of beautiful, ready to use templates that actually match your brand.

或者，如果我没有时间做所有事情呢？

Or what if I don't have time to do everything?

Shopify 内置的 AI 工具能帮助撰写产品描述、标题，甚至优化产品图片。

Shopify's built in AI tools help write product descriptions, headlines, and even enhance your product photos.

是时候用 Shopify 将这些‘如果’变为现实了。

It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today.

今天就前往 shopify.com/wsb 注册您的每月 1 美元试用版。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com/wsb.

前往 shopify.com/wsb。

Go to shopify.com/wsb.

就是 shopify.com/wsb。

That's shopify.com/wsb.

亿万富翁投资者通常不会把资金存放在高收益储蓄账户中。

Bill Billion dollar investors don't typically park their cash in high yield savings accounts.

相反，他们通常采用机构投资者常用的被动收入策略之一——私人信贷。

Instead, they often use one of the premier passive income strategies for institutional investors, private credit.

如今，得益于Fundrise收入基金，这一被动收入策略已向所有规模的投资者开放，该基金已吸引超过6亿美元投资，派息率为7.97%。

Now the same passive income strategy is available to investors of all sizes, thanks to the Fundrise Income Fund, which has more than $600,000,000 invested and a 7.97% distribution rate.

随着传统储蓄收益率下降，私人信贷在近几年成长为万亿美元级别的资产类别也就不足为奇了。

With traditional savings yields falling, it's no wonder private credit has grown to be a trillion dollar asset class in the last few years.

立即访问 fundrise.com/wsb，只需几分钟即可投资Fundrise收入基金。

Visit fundrise.com/wsb to invest in the Fundrise Income Fund in just minutes.

该基金在2025年的总回报率为8%，自成立以来的平均年总回报率为7.8%。

The fund's total return in 2025 was 8% and the average annual total return since inception is 7.8%.

过往表现不预示未来结果。

Past performance does not guarantee future results.

截至2025年1月20日12:30的当前派息率。

Current distribution rate as of twelvethirty onetwenty twenty five.

投资前请仔细阅读投资材料，包括投资目标、风险、费用和开支。

Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses.

更多相关信息可在 fundrise.com/income 上的收益基金招募说明书找到。

This and other information can be found in the income funds prospectus at fundrise.com/income.

这是一则付费广告。

This is a paid advertisement.

好了，回到节目。

All right, back to the show.

你提到了著名心理学家马丁·塞利格曼，对吧？

And you mentioned some of the famous researcher Martin Seligman, right?

他以研究习得性无助而闻名，对吧？

Who was famous for talking about learned helplessness, right?

就是你被折磨或者遭遇类似情况，到了某个阶段，你会变得像一团软弱无力的烂泥，完全无能为力。

Where you would get tortured or whatever, and at a certain point you'd become like this blubbery mess, and there was nothing you could do.

我不太喜欢这个说法，当然。

And I had I don't think that phrase obviously appeals to me.

但这是一个非常有趣的概念。

It's a very interesting concept.

我从未注意到你在书中提到的短语，即‘习得性乐观’，这可以说是塞利格曼所讨论的相反概念。

I never noticed the phrase that you mentioned in the book, which is learned optimism, which is sort of the opposite that Seligman talks about.

你提到使用类似‘我可以学习并变得更好’或‘我目前还做不到’这样的表达。

You talked about using phrases like, I can learn and grow better, or I can't do that yet.

你能谈谈如何做到这一点吗？因为这显然也与卡罗尔·德韦克关于成长型思维模式的著作密切相关。

Can you talk a little bit about how to because obviously this is very related also to Carol Dweck's writings about the growth mindset.

这些都像是新瓶装旧酒，但这种如何培养积极心态以增强韧性的理念确实非常重要。

These are all just sort of old wines in new bottles, but it's really important, this idea of how to develop a positive outlook so that you can be more resilient.

塞利格曼在他的研究中发现，某些类型的思维会导致人们陷入抑郁。

So Seligman in his research found that there were certain categories of thoughts that made people depressed.

比如‘我做不到’、‘我一无是处’、‘人生毫无意义’。

Like I can't do this, I'm worthless, life is pointless.

这些其实是我多年前研究自杀者留下的笔记时发现的类型，那些笔记充满了这种思维模式，具有诱发抑郁的作用。

These are actually kinds of things I did some research years ago with notes left by people who committed suicide, and they were full of this kind of thinking, which is depressionogenic.

而塞利格曼意识到，他可以帮助人们对抗这些消极想法。

And what Sulliman realized was that he could help people counter those thoughts.

顺便说一下，这与德韦克关于成长型思维模式的研究相符。

By the way, fits with Dweck's research on growth mindset.

认为自己一无是处的想法会让你陷入抑郁，这是一种固定型思维。

The idea that I'm no good, which is going to make you depressed, is a fixed mindset.

但他发现，你可以拥有德韦克所说的成长型思维，即相信自己能够改变、能够进步、能够变得更好。

But he saw that you could have what Dwight would call a growth mindset, which is to see yourself as able to change, as able to improve, as able to be better.

事实上，如果你认真反思一下，可能会意识到：哦，对了，其实我也没那么糟。

And in fact, if you took stock, you might realize, Oh yeah, actually I'm not so bad.

别人曾告诉我一些事情，那些都是正面的评价，但在你处于悲观抑郁状态时，你却压抑了这些想法。

People have told me this and that and that, which was good, which is a thought you suppressed when you were in that pessimistic depressed state.

因此，这些就是对抗负面思维的方法——顺便说一句，这也是认知疗法的基本原则。

And so these are the kinds of countering This is, by the way, a basic of cognitive therapy too.

认知疗法由塞利格曼的同事埃琳·贝克在宾夕法尼亚大学也开发出来。

Cognitive therapy was developed at Penn also by Seligman colleague, Erin Beck.

其理念很简单：记住，你不必相信自己的所有想法，尤其是那些让你自我感觉糟糕的抑郁型想法。

And the idea is simple, it's that Remember, you don't have to believe your thoughts, particularly the depressionogenic thoughts, the one that are making you feel bad about yourself.

当你觉得自己很糟糕时，你可以告诉自己：其实我没那么糟。

And you can counter them by telling yourself, Well, I'm not so bad, when you're thinking you're bad.

你可能需要一位治疗师，让客户把反驳的想法写下来，因为消极想法太突出，他们会随身带一张小卡片提醒自己：其实我挺好的。

You may need I know a kind of therapist who, clients, write down the counter thought because the down thoughts are so prominent and they'll have a little card that'll tell them, Oh, actually I'm pretty good.

我可以成长和改变。

Oh, I can grow and change.

换句话说，就是你在那一刻可以提醒自己的那些能反驳抑郁想法的内容。

Could In other words, things you can remind yourself of in that moment that counter the depressing thought.

我觉得在我们这个时代，这一点尤其重要，因为如今几乎出现了一种普遍的悲观情绪，尤其是在年轻一代中尤为明显。

I I feel like this is particularly important at the moment in our era because there's almost an epidemic of gloom that you particularly see with the younger generation.

你知道，我女儿马德琳，你见过的，她22岁，我儿子亨利25岁。

You know, my daughter who you've met, Madeline, is 22, and my son, Henry, is 25.

我看到他们这个年龄段的人——不是特指他们，而是他们认识的那些人——每天阅读新闻，了解气候变化、战争之类的消息，几乎已经说服自己一切都在走向毁灭，一切都毫无意义。

And I see their age group, not them in particular, but people they know, who read the news and read about global warming and the like, and and wars and the like, and they've almost convinced themselves that everything is going to hell, and it's all kind of pointless.

我其实刚刚在你和我常去的那家很棒的咖啡馆——红谷仓面包店——跟一个人聊过，我很高兴在这里为位于欧文顿的这家店做个宣传。

I was telling actually to someone in the very nice cafe where you and I sometimes meet, the Red Barn bakery, which I'm happy to advertise here in Irvington.

我在那里和一个人聊天，她说，对于这一代人、对于她的同龄人来说，很难投入一段关系的原因之一是，他们几乎觉得：‘有什么意义呢？’

I was talking to someone there and she said, One of the reasons why for that generation, for her generation, it's so hard for them to commit to a relationship is they're almost like, Well, what's the point?

你经常看到这种情况吗？

Do you see that a lot?

这种弥漫的悲观情绪如此强烈，以至于必须被抵消吗？

That sense that there's so much gloom that it kind of has to be counteracted?

我认为这种悲观情绪是可以理解的。

I think that gloom is understandable.

我认为新闻中的气候报道充满了负面消息。

I think that the news, the climate news is full of bad reports.

所以如果你二十岁，想着三十岁的时候要孩子，那就意味着当所有这些糟糕的预测成真时，你的孩子将面临非常糟糕的处境——顺便说一下，这让我想到了一个想和你探讨的想法，这里有个机会。

So if you're 20 and you're thinking of having kids by the time you're 30, that means by the time all these dire things are predicted, your kids are gonna be in a very bad situation, which by the way gets me to an idea I wanted to run by you, here's an opportunity.

我认为这里有一个聪明的商业策略。

I think there's a smart business strategy here.

我来告诉你是什么。

I'll tell you what it is.

年轻人是企业希望长期锁定为忠实客户的群体，与年长一代相比，他们更看重产品或公司为减少碳足迹等环境影响所采取的实际举措。

Younger people, which is a demographic companies want to capture as loyal customers over the course of their life, younger people, more than older people today, are going to value concrete moves that a product or company makes toward lessening their footprint, the carbon and so on.

如果有独立的评估机构，能让我比较这款杯子和那款杯子，或者这种零食和那种零食在气候或生态影响上的差异，顺便说一句，这种足迹不仅仅是碳排放，还包括支撑地球上生命的八大系统，而这些系统如今都岌岌可危且持续恶化。

And if there were an impartial evaluator, so I could compare this cup versus that cup, or these snacks versus those snacks, for their climate or ecological imprint, and by the way, that footprint is not just carbon, it's eight systems that support life on the planet, all of which are in dire straits and getting worse.

如果你能清楚看到某款产品在这方面比另一款做得更好，并且在购买时就能获得这些信息，就像你现在知道价格一样，我认为这将推动那些真正采取行动的产品提升市场份额。

If you could see that this product is doing it better than the other product, and if you knew that at point of purchase, just the way you know cost, I think it would create a market share improvement for those products that are doing something about it.

企业必须争夺市场份额。

And companies have to chase market share.

这可能是利用现有激励机制的一种方式。

That might be a way to use the existing system of incentives.

要改变一个系统，你必须理解其中的激励机制，促使企业重新思考如何制造产品、提供服务，以及如何朝着更环保的方向减少其环境足迹。

To change a system, you have to understand the incentives to have companies rethink how they make their things, what services they offer, what their footprint is in a better direction.

我认为年轻一代会推动这一变化。

And I think the younger demographic would drive that.

今天的数据显示不出这一点，但我敢打赌，明天就会发生。

I don't think that the data today shows it, but I bet it's gonna happen tomorrow.

是的

Yeah.

我倾向于同意。

I tend to agree.

我看到二十多岁和三十多岁的人有着强烈的追求更有意义生活的动力。

I see with people in their twenties and thirties this tremendous drive to live a more purpose driven life.

我认为，很多人对环境、社会和治理运动产生了强烈反弹，这种反弹有点疯狂。

And I think for a lot of There's a big backlash against the environmental, social and governance movement that I think is a little bit crazy, the backlash.

我的意思是，也许钟摆向一个方向摆动得太远了，或者华尔街在利用那些承诺和炒作却未能兑现的事情时过于 cynical 了。

I mean, maybe the pendulum swung too far in one direction, or maybe Wall Street was too cynical in exploiting stuff where they promised and hyped things, but didn't actually live up to them.

但我认为这种趋势会持续下去，因为当我看到这一代年轻人时，我认为如果你想雇佣并留住他们，他们不太可能去为不关心这些事情的公司工作。

But I think this is here to stay because when I see this younger generation, I think if you wanna hire them and you wanna retain them, they're less likely to go work for a company that doesn't care about these things.

他们更有可能忠于那些稍微更理想主义的公司。

They're more likely to stay loyal to a company that is slightly more idealistic.

或者留在那些目前做得不够好的公司，帮助它们变得更好。

Or stay with a company that doesn't do it well now and help them get to doing it better.

是的，我同意你的看法。

Yeah, I agree with you.

我认为意义感或使命感正变得越来越重要。

I think a sense of purpose or a mission is more and more important.

对于年轻一代来说，这种使命感越来越集中在环境问题上。

With younger generation, that mission tends to be more and more around the environment.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

回到管理我们情绪这个话题，我认为这极其重要，但你确实提到，拥有使命感是应对压力、增强韧性的方法之一。

To get back to this issue of managing our emotions, which I think is so hugely important, But one I mean, you do talk about the importance of having a sense of purpose as one way to deal with stress and the like, to become more resilient.

但我想稍微谈谈压力这个普遍存在的问题。

But I wanted to talk a little bit about stress in general, which clearly there's an epidemic of.

你在书中引用了一项调查，显示我认为在2022年，有38%的职场人士经历了高度的倦怠。

You quote a survey in the book showing that I think thirty eight percent of people in the workplace experienced high levels of burnout in 2022.

另一项研究发现，有百分之十六的人因压力而不得不辞去工作。

Another study found that sixteen percent have had to quit a job due to stress.

因此，压力在许多方面都是进入最佳状态的主要障碍，它会破坏我们的判断力——无论我们是投资者、商人，还是在与家人朋友的关系中；它会损害我们的健康，导致倦怠、不快乐，以及你提到的种种习惯，比如暴饮暴食、过量饮酒、失眠等等，还有缺勤和低效等问题。

And so clearly stress in many ways is a major enemy of getting into an optimal state, which And so it's gonna mess up our judgment, whether we're investors or business people or in our relationships with our family and friends, gonna mess up our health, gonna lead to burnout, unhappiness, all of these habits that you mentioned, like overeating and over drinking and sleeplessness or whatever, and absenteeism and low productivity and the like.

因此，压力显然是一个祸害。

So it's clearly a scourge.

那么，让我们谈谈如何应对压力，你的关于情绪智力的研究告诉我们，我们该如何真正减轻压力并重新获得情绪上的平衡。

So let's talk about how to deal with it, what your work in this arena of emotional intelligence tells us about how we can actually lessen stress and regain some sense of emotional balance.

我们能做些什么？

What can we do?

其实，我们完全不是无能为力的。

Well, we're not helpless at all.

但如果我们正被推向情绪枯竭，或正在朝这个方向前进，我们就需要意识到这种情况正在发生。

But if we're driven to emotional exhaustion or driving ourselves in that direction, we need to notice that that's happening.

这就是自我觉察发挥作用的地方。

That's where self awareness comes in.

身体实际上天生就对压力有反应。

And the body is actually wired for stress.

这是紧急应对机制，人人都知道。

It's the emergency response, everybody knows this.

压力激素会让你的四肢获得更多血液，而在紧急情况下，你的器官和免疫系统则会获得较少血液。

Stress hormones make your limbs activate, they get more blood, your organs, your immune system gets less blood during the emergency.

问题是，如果这种紧急状态是长期的——这正是当今压力的本质——那么你的免疫力就会下降，基本上是在毁掉你的健康。

Now the problem is, if that emergency is chronic, this is the nature of stress today, then you're lowering your immune resistance, you're ruining your health basically.

即使你可能能够激发自己来应对当下的压力，但身体并不是为此而设计的。

And even though you may be able to arouse yourself to meet the stress of the moment, the body's not designed for that.

身体的设计是：在经历一次大的紧急反应、压力唤醒后，然后恢复。

The body's designed to have a big emergency reaction, stress arousal, we call it, and then recover.

如果你忽视了恢复过程，你就是在把自己推向疲惫。

And if you slight the recovery, you're driving yourself to exhaustion.

对抗压力的主要方法之一是：首先，老生常谈的问题——我能在这种情境中改变什么？

And one of the main ways to fight stress is A, the old, well, what can I change in the situation?

也许你能改变它，也许不能。

Maybe you can change it, maybe not.

也许你可以减轻它。

Maybe you can lessen it.

也许如果你是领导者，你可以重新分配负担，我不知道。

Maybe if you're a leader, you can redistribute the load, I don't know.

但另一种方式是管理你自己，管理你日复一日面对现实时的内在反应。

But the other is manage yourself, manage your internal reaction to the reality you face day in and day out.

这意味着你需要采取一切必要措施来恢复。

And that means do what it takes to recover.

可能是去散步，可能是冥想或瑜伽，也可能是和你爱的人共度时光，或者和孩子、宠物玩耍。

It might be going for a walk, it might be meditating or yoga or spending time with someone you love or playing with your kids or your pet.

无论对你有效的是什么，都要安排好时间，把它变成你日常生活的一部分，因为它总看起来像是浪费时间。

It doesn't matter what works for you, schedule it, make it part of your day, make it part of your routine, because it always looks like it's a waste of time.

其实并不是。

It's not.

这非常关键，因为它能让你重新投入其中，恢复状态，而且你一定会比从未这样做过时表现得更出色。

It's crucial because it lets you go back into the fray, restore it, and you can be more optimal than if you had never done it, that's for sure.

你能做出更好的决定。

You can make better decision.

你在自己的生活中深入探索过很多这些方面。

You've gone deep on a lot of these things in your own life.

我知道你从伯克利大三时就开始冥想，那应该是五十多年前了。

I know that you've been meditating since you were a junior at Berkeley, I think more than fifty years ago.

因此，你对冥想、呼吸等话题思考了很多。

And so you've thought a lot about meditation and breathing and the like.

你在书中提到过一种深呼吸技巧，实际上可以改变你的生理状态，比如四四四式的呼吸法。

And you mention a bit in the book a deep breathing technique that can actually shift your physiology, a four-four-four type of breathing.

你能谈谈这个吗？

Can you talk about that?

因为当你处于压力状态时，这是一种非常实用的干预方式。

Because it's a very practical kind of intervention when you're Two in a

事情。

things.

一个是，冥想实际上是注意力训练。

One is meditation is really attention training.

我会再回到这一点。

I'll get back to that.

这是一种较慢的准备方式，帮助你应对压力。

That's a kind of slower way of preparing yourself to handle stress.

就像每天去健身房锻炼一样，你会变得更健康。

It's like going to the gym every day and working out, you become more fit.

如果你练习注意力训练方法，你会变得更加专注。

And if you practice an attention training method, you get more focused.

所以我们还会再回到这一点。

So we'll get back to that.

四四四法有时被称为箱式呼吸，被游骑兵等军人在即将进入压力情境前使用和教授。

The four-four-four method is sometimes called box breathing, is used by rangers military who are about to go into a stressful situation, they teach it.

但研究表明，它能将生理状态从所谓的交感神经系统激活（抱歉，是交感神经系统激活，当你感到压力和不安时的状态）转变为副交感神经系统激活，也就是恢复模式。

But the research shows it shifts physiology from what's called a parasympathetic nervous system arousal, I'm sorry, sympathetic nervous system arousal, which is when you're stressed out and upset, to a parasympathetic, which is the recovery mode.

它的做法是这样的，非常简单。

It goes like this, it's so simple.

你吸气时，我建议数到四，但我会说，只要舒服，就尽量深吸；屏住呼吸，直到你觉得舒适；然后缓慢呼气，尽可能长时间地呼出。

You breathe in, I teach a count of four, but I say breathe in as long as it's comfortable, hold your breath for as long as it's comfortable, and then exhale slowly for as long as you can.

如果你这样做六到九次，它实际上能将你的生理状态从压力模式转变为恢复和放松状态。

And if you do that six to nine times, it actually shifts your physiology from that stressed mode to recovery and relax.

所以，如果你知道自己即将进入一个压力情境，这是你可以做的一件事。

So that's one thing you can do if you know you're about to go into a stressful situation.

另一方面，我会说，增强你的注意力和专注力，因为越专注，事实证明，帮助你集中注意力的大脑区域也会让你更平静。

On the other hand, I would say buff up your attention, your focus, because the more focused you are, it turns out the same part of the brain that helps you focus makes you more calm.

所以这是一举两得。

So it's a twofer.

注意力训练可以简单到只是告诉自己：我要关注我的呼吸，吸气，呼气，全神贯注于每一次呼吸。

And attention training can be as simple as saying, I'm going to pay attention to my breath, breathing in, breathing out, full attention to every breath.

每当我的思绪飘走时，我敢保证它一定会飘走，而当我注意到它飘走了，我会把它带回到呼吸上。

And whenever my mind wanders, I guarantee it will, and I notice it wandered, I'm gonna bring it back to the breath.

这就像大脑在健身房里做的一次重复训练。

That's like the brain equivalent of a rep in the gym.

每次你把注意力重新拉回到你希望它停留的地方——无论是呼吸还是手头的任务，你都在强化专注的神经回路。

Every time you bring your focus back to that place you want it to be, your breath or task at hand, you're strengthening the circuitry for focus.

这是另一种管理压力的方法。

And that's another way to manage stress.

你会变得不那么容易反应过度。

You're less reactive.

压力反应有三个维度。

There are three dimensions of a stress reaction.

一是你感到压力、烦躁的频率，而这种方法能让人更少地感到烦躁。

Is how often you get stressed, upset, and this makes people less often likely to get upset.

第二个是压力的深度，即你有多烦躁。

The second is how deeply it happens, how upset you get.

这种方法让人变得更加平静，不太容易产生剧烈的情绪波动。

And this method is people become more calm and less likely to have an extreme upset.

我提到的第三点是恢复的速度，也就是你的韧性。

And the third I mentioned, that's the quickness of your recovery, your resilience.

这帮助人们更快地从情绪波动中恢复过来。

And this helps people be quicker in recovering from the upset.

我觉得也很有意思，引用一项经典研究，我认为是2010年左右的一项研究，名为《心猿意马即心生不悦》。

I thought it was really interesting as well, cite a classic study that I think is from something like 2010, that's called A Wandering Mind is an Unhappy Mind.

这种关联——我们一天中的大部分时间都处于心不在焉的状态——这不仅仅是效率低下，而是实际上这种状态本身非常痛苦。

And that connection, that sense that we are sort of adrift so much of the day, and that it's not Yeah, it's not just that it's unproductive, it's that it's actually a pretty miserable place to be in.

这是一项非常有趣的研究。

This is a really interesting study.

这项研究由哈佛大学进行。

Was done at Harvard.

他们给人们提供了一个手机应用，每天随机时间提醒他们，并问：‘你正在做什么？’

They gave people an app for their phone, which rang them at random times a day and says, What are you doing?

那你正在想什么呢？

And what are you thinking about?

就这两个问题。

Just those two questions.

你感觉如何？

And how do you feel?

他们发现，人们有大约50%的时间在分心，没有关注当下正在发生的事。

And what they found was that people were distracted from what was going on about 50% of the time.

顺便说一下，在通勤、坐在视频屏幕前和工作时，分心的比例高达90%。

By the way, it was ninety percent three times, during a commute, sitting in front of a video screen, and at work.

很遗憾，这是真的。

Sorry to say, it's true.

人们在想着别的事情。

People are thinking about something else.

如果你在想别的事情，你就无法完全专注于当下正在做的事。

And if you're thinking about something else, you're not fully focused on what you're doing right now.

他们还发现，你越分心，就越不快乐。

And they also found that the more distracted you were, the less happy you were.

当我们沉浸在自己的思绪中时，往往会认为最令人分心的想法是最具情感冲击力的。

When we're lost in our thoughts, we tend to think the most distracting thoughts are the most emotionally powerful ones.

他跟我说的那句话，他为什么要那样说？

That thing he said to me, why did he say that?

这太让人难过了。

It's so upsetting.

她为什么没有回复那封邮件？

Why didn't she answer that email?

不管是什么事，你的思绪都会往那里跑。

It doesn't matter what it is, that's where your mind is going to go.

从进化角度看，我们的大脑天生就会反思那些没做好的事情。

We're wired that way in evolution to reflect on what didn't go right.

但另一方面，这种习惯在今天已经不再有帮助了。

But on the other hand, that's not a helpful habit these days.

所以，这是自我觉察的一部分，意识到我们的思绪飘向了哪里。

So that's part of self awareness, realizing where our mind is going.

这项关于走神危害的哈佛研究在某种意义上特别及时，因为我们所有人都在与科技和大量令人分心的诱惑作斗争。

This Harvard study about the perils of a wandering mind is particularly timely in a sense because we're all wrestling with technology and the massive influx of distracting seductions.

我的确有一台台式电脑、一台笔记本电脑、一部iPhone和一个iPad。

And I mean, I have a desktop computer, I have a laptop computer, I have an iPhone, I have an iPad.

在这些设备上，我可以随时访问我的电子邮件、短信、Twitter、Facebook、LinkedIn、YouTube、《纽约时报》、《华尔街日报》和《金融时报》。

On them, have instant access to my email, my text messages, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Financial Times.

我的意思是，所有东西——播客、Spotify、FaceTime。

I mean, everything, podcasts, Spotify, FaceTime.

真不可思议我居然还能做成任何事。

It's kind of a marvel that I actually ever do anything.

既然你对注意力和专注力有深入了解——因为你写过一本关于专注的书，我也读过，就在我的Kindle上，那又是另一个设备了。

And so given what you know about attention and focus, because you've written a book that I've read before about focus as well, which is on my Kindle as well, there's another device.

我该如何打破这种陷入这些兔子洞、把注意力分散成这么多无益方式的习惯呢？

How can I break this habit of falling down these rabbit holes and dividing my attention in just so many unhelpful ways?

但在2010年他们做这项研究时，并不是每个人每天都随身带着手机。

But when they did that study in 2010, not everyone carried a phone with them every moment of the day.

现在很多人，甚至是大多数人，都随身带着手机，而手机也能非常有帮助。

Now many, many, or most people do, and phones can be very helpful.

我喜欢随时用谷歌搜索我不懂的东西。

I love to Google things I don't know at the moment.

它们是我们最糟糕的敌人，因为所有让我们分心的诱惑都就在我们手中。

They're our worst enemy, because all of our seductions are right there in our hand.

那些让你兴奋、让你愤怒、让你紧张焦虑的事情，都能在瞬间出现。

Things that turn you on, the things that anger you, the things that make you up uptight and anxious, can get in a moment.

因此，手机助长了分心。

And so phones feed distractedness.

记住，最具情感冲击的想法才是最让人分心的。

Remember, it's the emotionally laden thoughts that are the most distracting.

如果你想全神贯注于当下重要的事情，就应该把这些干扰抛在一边。

And if you want to have a full focus on what matters right now, you want to put aside those distractions.

所以实际上，我认为这正是今天教孩子们如何专注、如何管理情绪、如何培养情商的重要原因之一。

So actually, I think this is one reason that it's important to teach kids today how to focus, how to handle emotions, how to Basically emotional intelligence.

有许多被称为社会情感学习（SEL）的课程，已经在许多学校开展。

There are courses called social emotional learning, SEL, that is in many, many schools.

我曾去过曼哈顿一个非常贫困的地区——西班牙哈莱姆的一间教室，有人告诉我，班上一半的学生都有注意力缺陷障碍（ADHD）。

I went to a classroom in Spanish Harlem, very impoverished part of Manhattan, and I was told half the students in that class had ADHD, attention deficit disorder.

我本以为课堂会一片混乱，但事实并非如此。

And I expect the class to be chaotic and it wasn't.

我问老师为什么，她说：‘每天我们都会做这个。’

I asked the teacher why, and she said, Well, every day we do this.

他们做的就是孩子们称之为‘腹部伙伴’的活动。

And they did what the kids called belly buddies.

孩子们一个接一个地从储物柜里拿出自己最喜欢的毛绒玩具，找地方躺下，把玩具放在肚子上，看着它随着吸气上升、呼气下降。

One by one the kids got their favorite stuffed animal from their cubby, found a place to lie down, put that animal on their belly and watched it rise on the in breath, fall on the out breath.

吸气时上升，呼气时下降。

Rise on the in breath, fall on the out breath.

当他们的思绪飘走时，他们会注意到这一点，并将注意力带回下一次呼吸。

When their mind wandered off, they noticed it wandered, they brought it back to the next breath.

基本上，这是对孩子们进行的专注力训练。

Basically, this is attention training for kids.

我认为今天我们比以往任何时候都更需要它，因为干扰无处不在，而且比人类历史上任何时期都更强大。

And I think we need it today more than ever because the distractions are ever present and more powerful than they've ever been in human history.

我认为我们今天需要赋予孩子们更强的专注力，远胜于你我小时候的情况。

And I think we need to arm kids with better focus today, and much more so than when you and I were kids.

你提到，在很多方面，成熟的定义之一是能够扩大冲动与实际行动之间的间隔。

You mentioned that in many ways, one definition of maturity is being able to widen the gap between the impulse to do something and the act itself.

这正是维克多·弗兰克尔谈论过的内容，对吧？

And this is something I think Viktor Frankl talked about, right?

在那个间隔、那个空间里，存在着选择：我们是否要去做那些我们明知可能长期对自己有害的事情。

That in that gap, in that space is the choice as to whether we're gonna do the thing that we kind of know is harmful to us probably in the long run.

我很好奇，基于你多年来从科学中获得的认知，以及你从冥想实践、研究佛教等方面所学到的东西——这些你在个人生活中大量借鉴——你是如何应对这个问题的？

And I'm kind of wondering in practical terms, given how much you've learned over the years from the science, but also how much you've learned from your meditation practice and studying Buddhism and the like, which you've drawn a great deal in your personal life, how you deal with this.

因为我发现，就像我们的许多听众一样，我的生活压力很大，对吧？

Because I find, like many of our listeners, I have a pretty stressful life, right?

我同时处理太多事情了。

I'm juggling too many things.

有太多事情向我涌来。

There are lots of things coming at me.

我同时进行多个项目，总觉得自己正在掉落一半正在 juggled 的球，甚至可能都没意识到那些球是什么。

I'm bouncing multiple projects and always have a sense that I'm sort of dropping half the balls that I'm juggling, and I'm probably not even aware of what they are.

我能看出，有时这种压力悄然让我变得极易发怒，我对自己发脾气的速度之快感到惊讶。

I can see that there are times when that stress just is quietly It's given me a very I'm surprised at how quickly I lose my temper and become irritable.

我想，因为我是个典型的礼貌而压抑的英国人，愤怒和挫败感都在表面之下翻腾。

And I think because I'm a sort of polite repressed Englishman, the anger seethes deep below the surface, the frustration.

然后我发现，在某些情况下，比如我和妻子散步时，我们会开始讨论：等等，维珍网络来安装新互联网时，谁在家？

Then I find there are certain situations where I'll be walking with my wife or something like that, and we start to talk about, wait, so who's gonna be here when Verizon comes and is putting in the new internet?

我一直在想，我该怎么改变？

I'm like, how can I change?

当我准备和丹的访谈，同时做这做那的时候，我还能应付得了吗？

Can I handle all this when I'm preparing for my interview with Dan and I'm doing this and I'm doing that?

突然间，我被这些情绪压得喘不过气，就像风暴降临了一样。

And suddenly I'm just sort of overwhelmed by these emotions and it's like the storm has come.

还没反应过来，我就做出了自己不喜欢的行为，然后感到内疚，因为我的妻子如此温柔、耐心，和我一起度过了三十年。

Before I know it, I'm behaving in a way that I don't like, and then I feel guilty because my wife is so sweet and so patient and tolerant after thirty years with me.

在实际操作中，你该如何应对这些困难情绪——比如愤怒、易怒、悲伤，或者任何你特有的情绪触发点——以便在那一刻扩大反应之间的空间，而不去付诸行动？

How in practical terms do you deal with these difficult emotions like anger or irritability or sadness or whatever it is that's your particular poison that's gonna flare up in that moment so that you're widening that gap and not having to act on it.

所以，弗兰克尔是第一个，据我所知，明确提出如今被广泛接受的观点：冲动与反应之间的间隔越长，一个人就越成熟。

So Frankel, think was the first to, as I know, to articulate the idea now commonly accepted, that the longer the gap between impulse and reaction, the more mature a person is, you could say.

而管理冲动的能力，在技术上被称为认知控制。

And the ability to manage impulse is technically called cognitive control.

当你有了孩子，就能看到大脑的这一部分通常在五到七岁之间开始发育。

When you have kids, you can see this part of the brain coming online typically between ages five and seven.

如果你想想，它

If you think about a It's

和我一起迟到，丹。

coming in late with me, Dan.

我会到的。

I'll get there.

想想一个幼儿，他们全是冲动，完全随心所欲，并且立刻付诸行动。

If you think about a toddler, they're all impulse, they're all whatever whim, and they act on it.

想想一个八岁的孩子，他们管理情绪的能力强多了。

If you think about an eight year old, they're much better at managing emotion.

对于孩子，你可以通过一些简单的方式帮助他们提升认知控制能力，比如告诉他们：‘做完作业后才能看电视。’

Now with a kid, you can help them increase cognitive control through simple things like saying, You can watch this TV after you do your homework.

延迟满足实际上就是认知控制的一种训练。

Delaying gratification is in effect a lesson in cognitive control.

我们是成年人，其实永远都不算晚。

We're adults, it's actually never too late.

我发现我远未完全掌握这一点，我并不是从不生气或从不焦虑，只是我注意到这种情况发生的频率越来越低了。

I find that I haven't by any means mastered, it's not that I never become angry or never become anxious, it's just that I notice it's been happening less and less.