RWH043：与盖伊·斯皮尔一起生存与繁荣：第二部分

你说过，这显然受到丹·戈尔曼和索南仁波切的影响。

You said and it's certainly under the influence of Dan Goleman and Sotnay Rinpoche.

丹·戈尔曼，你播客里提到过他，他说过，你只想在触发点和反应之间增加距离。

Dan Goleman, one from your podcast, of the things he says, you just wanna increase the distance between the trigger and the reaction.

所以，你做了一件我以前从没见过你做的事——就在我们激烈争吵、剑拔弩张的时候，你说：‘我有点上火了。’

So, you did something that I'd never seen you do before is in the midst of this heated, sort of like both at each other's throats, you said, I'm getting heated.

我不喜欢这样。

I don't like this.

我得花半小时走开一下。

I've got to take half an hour just to walk away.

然后真的就退出了。

And literally, disengaged.

我几乎感觉我正说到一半。

Almost I felt like I was mid sentence.

你直接走进卧室，然后就消失了。

You just walked away to the bedroom, and you disappeared.

这对我来说很难，因为我本想继续和你唇枪舌剑

And and that was hard for me because I wanted to remain locked in verbal combat

和你。

with you.

我当时有点懵了。

And, and I was kind of a break.

我心想：现在怎么办？

I was like, what now?

你知道的。

You know?

我要不要再煮一杯咖啡？

Do I make another coffee?

我在想他什么时候会出来。

I wonder when he's gonna come out.

你总是再煮一杯咖啡。

You always make another coffee.

所以，那确实是新的体验。

So, that that was new.

但凯特那边到底发生了什么？我想追溯一下这个过程，因为我在谈论这些的时候也在学习。

But but what Kate what so then and I just wanna trace this because I'm learning in the process of talking about this.

你做了一件事，让我无法通过关注我所感知到的、来自你的那种烦扰源头来分散自己内心的注意力。

So you did something that didn't enable me to distract myself from whatever was going on inside by focusing on whatever the hell this I perceived to be the source of the irritation from you.

但接着还有一件非常重要的事。

And, but then something else really important.

威廉一直跟你跟我聊很多关于冥想的事，你给了我这个——现在是马特·拉默给我的。

So William has been talking you've been talking to me a lot about meditation, and you gave me and this is now Matt Ladmer who gave me this.

我觉得这真是个宝藏，非常重要：我不知道你当时在房间里做了什么，但关键不是说，‘哦，我平静了’。

And I just think it's such a gem and is so important is I don't know what you went and did in the room, but the key is not to say, oh, I'm calm.

我平静了。

I'm calm.

这个烦人的争论，我平静了。

This this annoying argument, I'm calm.

不。

No.

就像是创造一个空间，去尝试理解正在发生什么。

It's like, create the space to try and understand what is going on.

所以马特·罗德曼给我的术语是精神逃避。

So the the term that Matt Rodman gave me is spiritual bypassing.

这并不是疏离的目的。

That's not the point of the disengagement.

这也不是我所理解的平静心灵的目的。

That's not the point of calming the mind as I understand it.

目的是你现在有了空间，去尝试理解真正正在发生的事情，因此这种平静是为了做真正的工作。

The point is now you have the space to try and understand what's really going going on, and so that calmness is to do real work.

是的。

Yeah.

这不仅仅是否认它并把它压下去。

It's not just to deny it and put a lid on it.

所以，是的。

So Yeah.

你正在以一种诚实的方式观察你身体和内心真正发生的事情，而不是回避它、逃避它，或假装‘我已超然物外，一切都很好’。

You're trying to look at what's actually going on in your body and your mind in an honest way, not looking away from it, not avoiding it, not pretending, oh, I'm so zen that everything's just fine.

你实际上是在观察它，我认为冥想的伟大馈赠之一就是，你以更高的分辨率去观察它。

It's like you actually you're looking at it I think this is one of the great gifts of meditation is you're looking at it with a a higher level of resolution.

所以你会说：‘天啊。’

So you can be like, oh my.

我在这次对话中一直有这种感觉。

I've been feeling it during this conversation.

就像，我不确定是不是我喝的咖啡太多了——通常确实如此，但你永远不可能喝太多咖啡。

It's like, I don't know if it's that I drank too much coffee, which is usually but I You can never drink too much coffee.

通常它对我没什么影响，但这次我觉得有点奇怪。

Usually, it doesn't have any impact on me, but I'm like, there's, like, something weird.

你知道，胸口有种类似焦虑的感觉，这对我来说并不常见，我不确定是不是因为自我觉察增强了，所以感觉有点不舒服。

You know, like, there's a sort of anxiety kinda here that I would you know, in my chest that I'm like it's it's like it's uncommon for me, and I don't know if that's so so, yeah, slightly uncomfortable because you become more self aware.

所以你会想，我这是怎么了？

So you're like, oh, what's going on with me?

但这样反而有帮助，而不是回避身体或内心正在发生的事，任由它们悄悄控制你。

Like but that's kinda helpful instead of avoiding what's going on in your body and just being kind of or your mind and just being quietly controlled by it.

好吧。

You're like, Okay.

所以，我们共同的朋友肯·舒宾斯坦教过我一件非常有价值的事，我在《理查德·怀斯曼：更快乐》中稍微提到过：当你饥饿、愤怒、孤独、疲惫、疼痛或压力大的时候，不要做重要决定。

So so one of the things Ken Schubinstein, our mutual friend, taught me that was hugely valuable that that I wrote about a little bit in in Richard Wiser Happier was when he said that you don't wanna make important decisions when, for example, you're hungry, angry, lonely, tired, in pain, or stressed.

因此，清楚自己当前的状态非常关键。

And so knowing knowing what state you're in is hugely valuable.

所以，去年我们发生那次激烈争执时，我能察觉到自己只是因为对你说了一些话，你没理解，还表现出抗拒，于是我感到受伤和被拒绝。

So, like, when I was so when we had that mower of locked horns last year, and I could see I was just getting angry and upset because I was saying something to you that you didn't get and you were kind of rejecting, and then I felt hurt and rejected.

因此，我知道如果我在生气时继续这场对话，只会造成伤害，这对我没有任何帮助。

And so I just know if I continue to have this discussion while I'm angry, I'm gonna cause damage, and that's not gonna help me.

让我先离开这个情境。

Let me just take myself out of this situation.

所以我认为这并不是最优的，因为我希望我没有生气，但至少我有自我觉察，知道我需要退出这个情境。

And so I don't think it was optimal because I wish I hadn't got angry, but I think it was at least I had the self awareness to know I need to take myself out of this situation.

这给了我们一个冷静下来的机会。

It gave us a chance to cool down.

所以我认为，对于很多这类事情来说，并不是说我会变得如此平静、如此深刻，成为冥想或治疗等方法的完美实践者，以至于所有这些情绪都不会再出现。

So I think with a lot of these things, it's not it's not like, oh, I'm gonna become so zen and so profound, such a great practitioner of meditation and so self aware through therapy or whatever it is that none of this stuff will occur.

丹·戈尔曼经常谈到这一点。

It's and Dan Gollman talks about this a lot.

他最近一期播客中表现得非常深刻，对这个问题有独到见解。

He he was on a a recent episode of the podcast and just incredibly thoughtful about this.

并不是说这些想法或情绪会消失，而是因为你对它们更加觉察了，是的。

It's not that those thoughts or emotions are gonna go away, but because you're more you're more aware of them yeah.

正如我认为他引用维克多·弗兰克尔的话所说：你可以在刺激与反应之间拓展出一段空间。

As, I think he he was he was quoting Viktor Frankl who said that you can you can expand that space between stimulus and response.

而在刺激与反应之间的这段空间里，你拥有选择权，这就是你的自由意志。

And in that space between stimulus and response, you have a choice, and that's your free will.

而对我们大多数人来说，就像火柴被点燃了一样。

Whereas for most of us, it just it's like the match is lit.

对吧？

Right?

你一下子就爆发了。

You just explode.

根本没有缓冲的空间。

There's no space.

是的。

Yeah.

你刚刚让我对这一点有了更深的理解。

And that's you just gave me a little more on that.

这太美了。

That's so beautiful.

我想暂停一下，好好反思一下。

I just wanna pause and just reflect on it.

所以，有刺激，也有反应。

So, there's the stimulus and there's response.

当你在两者之间增加空间时，那就是自由意志。

And when you increase the space between the two, that is free will.

这是一个非常美妙的想法。

And that is such a beautiful idea.

我的大脑当时朝两个不同的方向在运转。

My I, brain was going in two different directions.

是的。

Yeah.

因为在那一刻，你可以做出选择；而如果你只是被潜意识深处涌动的东西所控制，你就没有选择余地。

Because you get to choose in that moment, where if if you're just controlled by the stuff that's swirling under the surface, you have no choice.

你只是被某些触发因素所控制。

You're just controlled by the fact that you are triggered by something.

前几天你跟我讲了一件非常有趣的事，你说在我们过去几天的讨论中，有几次你被某些事情轻微地触发了，于是你就通过感受自己的双脚来让自己安定下来，并且更深地呼吸。

You said to me something very interesting the other day where we you said to me that there were certain points in our discussions over the last few days where you were being slightly triggered by something, and so you would start to feel your feet as a way of grounding yourself, and you would breathe more deeply.

你能谈谈这个吗？

Can you talk about that?

因为这在我看来是一种你学会的实际做法，让你能够直面困难情境，而不是逃避它们。

Because that that strikes me as a sort of practical thing that you've learned to do to kind of lean into difficult situations instead of avoiding them.

是的。

Yeah.

我会试着说一下，等我的大脑重新集中起来。

I'll have a go as as my brain comes back into focus.

所以，有一件事是，丹·西格尔写过一本叫《心灵的开发》的书，我几年前读过。

So the one thing that so I so it's Dan Siegel who wrote a book called The Developing Mind, which I read tiny years ago.

他是个了不起的人。

He was what an incredible guy.

我肯定他和丹·戈尔曼是认识的。

And I'm sure he and Dan Goldman know each other.

他是加州大学洛杉矶分校的教授。

He's a professor at UCLA.

他给了我一个洞见：在双人关系的发展中，约翰·鲍尔比提出了不同类型的依恋模式，他延续并发展了这一依恋理论。

And he gave me this insight that so in in, in the development of dyads, the the the John Bowlby, there's different kinds of attachment, and he continues with this attachment theory.

建立良好依恋的关键，并不在于你们是否会发生争执和分歧。

And the key on developing good attachments is, not that you get into fights and disputes.

而在于你们双方是否都有能力与信心去修复这些分歧。

It's that you both have the ability and the confidence to repair from those disputes.

因此，如果我……这么说吧，双人关系就是两个人之间一种强烈的镜像神经元互动，这种互动存在于深厚的友谊中，也存在于亲密关系、亲子关系、夫妻关系中。

And so if I if I go and and so this is a dyad is just two people in this sort of intense mirror neurons interaction, and it happens in deep friendships, it happens in relationships, parent child, husband wife.

出于各种原因，当劳里和我因为某些事情发生争执、激烈对抗时，这对劳里来说会感到极度不安全，因为她成长的家庭里从不发生争吵。

And for various reasons, when Laurie and I would get into a fight over something the way we locked horns, that would feel extremely unsafe for Laurie because she'd grown up in a family where there were never any fights.

而我则成长在一个经常争吵的家庭。

Whereas I grew up in a family where I was arguing constantly.

尤其是和我父亲在一起时，那种氛围让我感到非常不适。

I was like, that was an awful space for me to be, especially with my father.

所以我们必须学会一起骑这辆自行车。

So we had to learn to ride that bicycle together.

和劳里在一起时，她会逃避，不是身体上的离开，而是关闭自己，不再与我交流，这会以各种方式触发我。

And what would happen with Laurie is that Laurie would run away, and not physically, but she would shut herself off from me, and that would actually trigger me in all sorts of ways.

因此，在发生破裂、情绪波动之后学会修复——无论是一方大喊大叫，还是一方开始哭泣——这才是关键所在。

So learning to repair after you've had that break, that upset, one person yelled, one person started crying, whatever it is, is where the action is.

我开始学习如何做，部分是通过和劳里一起接受咨询师的结构化辅导：首先，当这种情况发生时，如果我们能做到的话，就要感到兴奋并产生好奇。

What I started learning to do in part through having structured sessions with Laurie and a counselor is, first of all, when that happens, if we can possibly do it, is to get excited and to get curious.

天啊，这里发生了一些事情。

So my god, something's happening here.

到底是什么？

What is it?

这种感觉有点像在练习冥想。

And in the sense that's sort of like trying to become meditative.

我和劳里已经多次这样做了。

And I've done this with Laurie many times.

我会说：天啊，你看，我们在吵架了。

Would say, oh my god, look, we're fighting.

这里有些东西。

There's something here.

这对我们来说有值得学习的地方。

There's something valuable for us to learn.

让我们找出它是什么。

Let's find what it is.

在这些会谈的早期，治疗师提到的一件事是，因为你会变得反应性很强。

Very early on in those sessions, one of the things that the therapist said was because what happens is you become reactive.

你想要打断对方。

You wanna kind of interrupt the other person.

你想要强加自己的观点。

You wanna try and impose your point of view.

你想要反驳他们所说的话。

You wanna disagree with them, what they're saying.

你就是不认同。

You like, don't buy it.

所以，只是把脚放在地上，就能让你感觉踏实。

And so literally just putting one's feet on the floor, it kinda like it grounds you.

于是我记起了这一点，实际上我已经这样做过几次了。

And and and so I was remembering that, and I've done that a few times, actually.

关键是，当威廉或劳里在说话，而我强烈不同意时，我差点又造成更多伤害。

And, because the point is, when William or Laurie and it's like, you're saying something, and I profoundly disagree, and and then I'm about to do more damage.

所以，只是感受一下脚踩在地上的感觉，深吸一口气。

And so just, like, feel my feet on the ground and breathe it in.

然后去体会他所说的话，这很奇妙，因为我想回到之前，因为在我们的对话中我有了一个领悟，这就是学习是如何发生的。

And breathe in what he's saying, and it's this fascinating thing that when so I wanna go back, because I had a realization in our conversation, so this is how learning happens.

所以，我非常想说的是，我为妻子付出，反而打开了她为我付出的通道。

So I I wanted to very much say how me serving my wife opened up the channels for her to serve me.

威廉，我意识到，你希望我们每次讨论这本书时，都从研读《佐哈尔》开始。

What I realized, William, is that you wanted to start every session where we were, working on the book with some study of the Zohar.

我为自己感到骄傲，因为偶尔我会意识到，自己做了一件好事。

And I'm proud of myself, because every now and then I realize I did something good.

所以，如果你当时问我，盖伊，你此刻最重要的事是不是研究《佐哈尔》？

So if you would have asked me, honestly, that moment, Guy, is your most important thing to do right now is study Zohar?

我会说不是。

I would have said no.

我有机会去写这本书。

I get to work on the book.

但当时我能说的是，我知道威廉正在做非凡的工作，我知道这对他来说很重要。

But what I would have been able to say at the time is, but I I know that William is doing incredible work, and I know that this is important to him.

所以我愿意向它敞开自己，不是因为我认为它对我本身有内在的重要性，而是因为它对他很重要。

And so I want to open up myself up to that, not because I see it as intrinsically important to me, but it's important to him.

而现在，我认为在我们开始任何实质性工作之前，我对待这件事的态度已经改变了。

And and now I think my relationship to doing that before we do any real work has has changed.

我先是做了，然后才明白了。

I kind of like, I did it and then I learned it.

所以在我看来，在所有这些互动中，关键是要意识到：我该如何以可能困难、不舒服的方式向眼前这个人敞开自己？我可能看不到意义，必须进入一片新领域，但还是要向他敞开，信任他——这样说你能明白吗？

And so it seems to me that it's just really important in all of these interactions to sort of go, okay, how do I open up to this person here in ways that may be difficult, uncomfortable, I don't see, I'm gonna have to go to a new territory, but open up to them and trust them, if that makes any sense.

这很有趣，因为我对冥想其实并不太了解。

And, it's got it's interesting because I really don't know meditation very well.

我不了解你和索皮尔、波切等人一起学习的全部内容，但关键在于把脚放在地上，呼吸当下发生的一切，为对方留出空间。

I don't know all of the learning that you've been doing with people like Sopnir and Pochet, but it's got to do with putting your feet on the floor, breathing in what is happening, giving space to the other person.

在把话筒交给你之前，我想最后说一点：他们教给我的，以及一本值得一读的书，是哈维尔·亨德里克斯的《镜像疗法》，这本书对我们帮助极大。

And I'll just end with this before I hand the mic over to you, is what they taught me, and the book to read is this guy Harvall Hendrix, Imago Therapy was extremely helpful for us.

他们教给我们的这项技能，就像骑自行车一样，他以最基础的方式教给了我和洛里：当你不确定时，如果脚踩地面和其他方法都不奏效，就只是重复对方说的话。

And this skill, which is this riding a bicycle skill that they taught, he taught to me and Lori in the most basic way is, so so just, you know, if if in doubt and if feet on the floor and other things don't work, just repeat back what the person is saying.

所以不要立即反应，而是说：好的。

So rather than react, say, okay.

你告诉我的是，试着创造一个空间，让他们感受到你正在看见他们，或者你正努力承认他们的现实。

So what I hear you telling me is, and just try and create the space for them to see that you're you're seeing or you're you're making an effort to acknowledge their reality.

我不确定这是否有帮助。

I don't know if that's helpful.

是的。

Yeah.

我想这部分在于足够安静下来。

I I I think part of it is is getting quiet enough.

你用了那个美妙的词，谈到给予空间，你试图创造足够的空间和宁静，以便能听到对方的立场，你也可以。

You you used that beautiful term talking about giving space, that you're trying to create enough space and enough quiet so you can hear where the other person is coming from, and you can yeah.

所以我认为，很多这类事情都关乎增加空间。

So I think a lot of this stuff is about adding space.

就像我们之前说的，扩展刺激与反应之间的空间。

Like, you know, as we were saying before, like, expanding that space between stimulus and response.

因为我和你都是情绪化且非常强烈的人，我们的思维非常忙碌且容易分心，我们可能只是很多人的一种更极端版本。

And so when because you and I are pretty emotional and pretty intense people and our minds are just very, very busy and distractible, it's we're probably sort of a more extreme version of a lot of people.

对我们来说，找到保持安静、给予空间的方法更重要，无论是通过冥想、运动、在山里散步，还是其他任何方式。

It's more important for us to find ways to keep quiet, to give space, whether it's through meditation, exercise, walking in the, you know, in the mountains or whatever.

任何你能做的、创造更多空间的事情，都能让你更明智地回应。

Anything that you can do to create a little more spaciousness so that you can respond more wisely.

关于这个话题，我想问你一件事，最近几天我们一直在讨论。

On that subject, I wanted to ask you something that you and I have been talking about a lot over the last few days.

我认为这是一个非常重要且充满争议的问题，许多人对此意见分歧，但非常值得我们深入探讨。你和我一直在讨论，我们正生活在一个极其紧张的时期，围绕特朗普和美国政治、环境与全球变暖、ESG、女性对自己身体的自主权与最高法院裁定她们不享有某些权利、枪支问题，以及乌克兰和加沙的局势，都充满了激烈的对立情绪。

Think it's a really important issue that's contentious for a lot of people but really worth us exploring, which is you and I have been talking about the fact that we live in this very intense period where there's a lot of division and high emotion over Trump and US politics, the environment and global warming and ESG, over women's right to choose what to do with their bodies versus the Supreme Court kind of deciding they don't have certain rights and arguments about guns and issues with Ukraine and and Gaza.

这一周你和我频繁讨论的一个问题是：如何与那些持有截然不同观点、拥有完全不同经历的人进行交流？如何在对话中避免强化自身的偏见，避免封闭自己、拒绝倾听他人的声音？

And one of the things you and I have been talking about a lot this week is how to engage with people who are coming at us with very different views, very different experiences, and find ways to talk and find ways not to be just reinforcing our own prejudices and shutting ourselves off from other people's views?

因为，我昨天在你于克洛斯特斯主办的ValueX活动上看到了一幕：你的朋友、来自沙特的阿卜杜勒·阿齐兹走上舞台时，你立刻给了他一个拥抱。

Because, I mean, I saw this yesterday at ValueX's event that that you're hosting here in, in Closters that a friend of yours, Abdul Aziz, from Saudi came onto the stage, and you just immediately hugged him.

看到一个父亲是以色列人、母亲是南非人的你，和这位我认为是生活在伦敦的沙特人，能够彼此凝视、表达如此真挚的情感，这在本可能极度紧张的环境中显得格外动人。

And there's something really beautiful about seeing a, you know, a guy whose father is Israeli, mother is South African in your case, and this guy who I think is a Saudi living in London able to kind of look at each other and kind of express love in that way in a situation that could be incredibly intense.

在我看来，这显然是你有意为之的决定。

And I it seemed to me that was a very conscious decision on your part.

我正努力去理解，想听听你从最近几个月——尤其是10月7日以色列遭遇袭击以来——的错误中，以及你做得好的那些时刻里，学到了什么。

And I'm I'm trying I'd I'd love to get a sense from you of what you've learned both through your mistakes and through the times when you've done it well in recent months since October 7, not least, the attack in Israel.

你是如何沟通的？在面对那些在这些争议性议题上，其经历、观点、偏见和认知与我们如此迥异的人时，我们该如何更好地交流？

How you communicate, how we can communicate better with people whose experiences, views and prejudices and biases and understanding is just so different from from ours on any of these contentious subjects.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，天啊，我首先得说，阿齐兹真的特别容易让人想拥抱。

I mean, boy, I I I feel like I am so first of all, I need to say Aziz is very huggable.

是的。

Oh, yeah.

而且我和阿齐兹经常开玩笑。

But and he's you know, I I joke with Aziz.

我跟阿齐兹说过：阿齐兹，我想见见你妈妈，因为我从他身上感受到他一定被母亲深深爱着，可能父亲也是，但我感觉更多是来自母亲的爱，这从他的笑容和各种细节中都能看出来。

He's I've said to Aziz, Aziz, I wanna meet your mother, because I just feel I see in Aziz somebody who's deeply loved by his mother, perhaps by his father as well, but I feel like it's his mother and it comes through in his smile and all sorts of things.

我非常感激阿齐兹出现在我的生命里。

And I'm very grateful for Aziz in my life.

但你问了我这个问题，我既感到有点压力，又觉得非常荣幸，因为我觉得自己在十月七日袭击事件发生后，并没有表现得最好。

But I I feel kind of slightly daunted and honored that you asked me that question, because I don't think that I've necessarily handled myself, if you like, the best in in the wake of, the October seventh attacks.

而且我觉得，确实有一些人是这方面的专家。

And so, and I think that there are people who who are real experts.

我想到了一位在以色列的论坛培训师、主持人兼教练，叫阿米尔·凯菲尔，我见过他调解争端，确实有人是这方面的真正专家，而我并不是。

I'm thinking of a, sort of a forum trainer moderator coach type in Israel called Amir Kefil, who I've seen moderate disputes, and so there are people who are real experts at it, and I'm not one.

我认为，我知道这些原则，但真正践行它们，尤其是当你身处其中时，是非常困难的。

And I think that, I I think that I I know the principle and the principles, but acting on them, especially when you're involved, is extremely hard.

我认为这其中有很多细微差别，但我只能告诉你我所知道的：当我们产生愤怒和仇恨时，往往会固守愤怒，虽然并不总是如此。

And I think there's many nuances and subtleties, but I'll just give you what I know, which is that when we have anger and hate, that stick with anger, a lot of the time, not always.

因此，我对愤怒的理解是，作为一种适当的情绪，愤怒意味着我的界限被侵犯了，我需要采取行动。

So the way I understand anger, anger when a as an appropriate emotion is an emotion that says, my boundaries have been violated, and I need to take action.

somewhere 有句名言，你知道，发怒很容易，但要在对的时间、对的人身上、以正确的方式发怒却很难。

And there's some sort of saying somewhere, you know, to get angry is easy, but to get angry with the right person the right way at the right time.

所以，这种愤怒的情绪有时——或许经常——是恰当的，尽管采取行动并找到合适的方式去行动却不容易。

So that that sometimes, maybe often, that motion of anger is, appropriate, although acting on it and finding an appropriate way to act on it.

我想起了沃伦·巴菲特，他说他总能告诉别人‘明天再滚蛋’。

I'm reminded of Warren Buffett who says he can always tell somebody to go to hell tomorrow.

你知道吗？

You know?

这说明我们确实会感到愤怒。

That's a you know, we feel angry.

有人伤害了我们，但此时告诉他们滚蛋是恰当的反应。

Somebody's wronged us, but it's the appropriate thing to tell them to go to hell.

也许我们还有其他可以做的事情。

Maybe there are other things that we can do.

我们应该等等。

We should wait.

这是愤怒的一种表现形式。

So that's one version of anger.

但愤怒中还有一种情况，当我们体验到愤怒这种情绪时，依我理解，它实际上是在掩盖痛苦。

But there's there's another thing that happens in anger, which when we experience the emotion of anger, the way I understand it, which is that it's actually covering up pain.

由于某种原因，我们觉得没有足够的安全感、空间或能力去面对自己的痛苦，因此愤怒便作为一层保护盾出现，让我们能够推开那些让我们痛苦的事物。

And for one reason or another, we don't feel like we have the safety, the space, the ability to experience our pain, and therefore anger comes along with this protective shield, and the anger, allows us to push away whatever it is that is causing us pain.

如果我们能在自己或他人身上意识到，这种愤怒其实是在掩护痛苦，并让愤怒不再掩盖痛苦，那就好了。尽管这会触及一个极具争议且危险的领域，但这是我最熟悉的领域，因为我可能已经过于深入其中了——比如加沙正在发生的事，而我也可以将它套用在我和劳里的争执中：双方都承受着巨大的痛苦。

If we can somehow, in ourselves, in others, see that actually what this anger is doing is it's shielding pain and allow the anger to kind of, not obscure the pain, that is so if we could just go to, you know, what is highly contentious and dangerous territory, but it's the one that I'm most familiar with because I've been probably far too engaged with it, is that what is going on in Gaza, and I can template it onto fights that I've had with Laurie, is that there is enormous pain on both sides.

无论人们如何讨论各种事情的是非对错，我认为，如果我们能让他们坐下来进行一次平静的对话，没有人能否认存在巨大的痛苦。我想我们可以稍微谈一谈，先从以色列方面说起，不，我先从加沙说起，还是先从以色列方面说起吧。

So whether, you know, one can can talk about the rights and wrongs of all sorts of things, but I don't think anybody, if I could, we could get them in a quiet conversation, could dispute that there is enormous pain, and I guess we can go into a little bit, you know, on the on the Israeli side well, I'll start with the Gaza well, I'll start on the Israeli side.

因此，针对那些暴行所造成的巨大痛苦是显而易见的，在以色列一方，这些行为显然极其不公正、毫无来由，是任何人类都不应施加于他人的行为。

So, there is enormous pain at the atrocities that were committed, which, on the Israeli side, very clear and I think to most humans, feels extremely unjustified, unprovoked, and, things that one human being should never do to another.

除此之外，这还触发了另外两件事：历史上犹太人曾多次遭遇类似迫害，另一个触发点是，以色列国本应保护我们免受此类反犹暴行的侵害，但它却没有做到，我们曾以为生活在一个没有反犹主义的世界里，但反犹主义却就在眼前。

And then over and above that, that triggers that's triggered two further things, which is this has happened to the Jews throughout history, and another trigger, which is that the state of Israel was supposed to protect us against these kinds of pogroms happening, but it didn't protect us, and, we thought that we would live in a world without antisemitism, but antisemitism is right there.

然后，我想从一个无辜的加沙家庭的视角来看待这个问题，他们只是想好好过日子。

And then, you know, I wanna take the perspective of an innocent Gazan family who are trying to make their lives.

我会告诉你，威廉，很长一段时间里，如果我去翻查我的谷歌账户，就会发现这甚至早于我们拥有谷歌之前——在拉莫特沙维姆，一个由我祖父和其他人在1930年代建立的村庄，我的姑妈米里亚姆曾有一位来自加沙的农场帮工。

And I would tell you, William, that for the longest time, and if I somewhere in my Google account, this was well before we had, Google, You know, in Ramotshavim, which is a village that was founded by my grandfather and other people in the 1930s, my aunt Miriam had somebody who was a farmhand who would travel from Gaza.

据我所知，他来自加沙南部，可能是汗尤尼斯。

He's from South Gaza, if I believe from Khan Yunus.

这真令人难过，因为我已经忘记了他的名字。

And, it's terrible because I forget his name.

但他认识每一个人。

But he was like he he knew everybody.

我们都认识他。

We knew him.

当他被允许时，他会过夜，但后来以色列改变了规定。

He would stay overnight when he was allowed to, and then Israel changed the rules.

理论上，他必须非常非常早起床，然后一路返回加沙。

And in theory, he had to get up very, very early in the morning and then go all the way back to Gaza.

有一段时间，我的姑妈米里亚姆违反规定让他过夜，因为按规定他每晚都必须回去，原因只是为了安全，而不是其他原因。

And then for some time, my aunt Miriam allowed him to stay overnight against the rules, because he was supposed to go back every night for security reasons, not for any other reason.

但当我谈到加沙人时，我想明确一点：我认识加沙人。

But when I talk about Gazans, I just want to be clear that I know Gazans.

我上商学院时还认识另一个加沙人，他当时创办了加沙划船俱乐部。

There was another Ghazan that I knew at business school who at the time had started the Gaza Rowing Club, actually.

那里有一片美丽的海滩。

There's a beautiful beach there.

所以从我的角度来看——我知道这会有争议——但也有人认为，整个加沙社会都对哈马斯的暴行负有责任，就像纳粹德国那样。

So from the perspective and I know that there's the claim and this will be controversial, but there are there are also you know, some people wanna say the whole of Gaza and society is complicit in the acts of Hamas in in Nazi Germany.

有一本非常成功的书叫《希特勒的自愿执行者》，作者在书中也提出了同样的观点。

There are you know, Hitler's Willing Executioners was a book that was quite successful where the author of that book made the same claim.

但我确信，就像亚伯拉罕对上帝说的那样，加沙至少有一个无辜的人。

But I'm certain in the same way that Abraham said to God, there's at least one innocent person in Gaza.

当然不止一个，有很多人只想过平静的生活。

There are certainly more than one, many, who just want to live a quiet life.

这正是我们所有人都想要的。

That's what we all want to do.

从他们的角度来看，承受着巨大的痛苦。

And from their perspective, there is enormous pain.

我们无法建立一个国家。

We can't get a state.

我们，出于这样或那样的原因，从那个人的角度来看，我没有行动自由。

We, for one reason or another, you know, from the perspective of that person, I don't have freedom of movement.

我甚至连在中东内部旅行都极其困难，更不用说去中东以外的地方了。

It's very, very hard for me to travel just within the Middle East, let alone outside of the Middle East.

我每天都要工作，只为让我的孩子接受教育，只为让家人有饭吃。

I have work every day just to get my children educated and just to put food on the table.

他的名字叫哈桑。

Hassan is his name.

我们现在不知道他在哪里。

We don't know where he is now.

不。

No.

哈桑想养活他的家人。

Hassan wants to feed his family.

他想赚取每日工资，买面包来养活家人。

He wants to have to earn his daily wage and buy bread to feed his family.

就这么简单。

It's that simple.

所以，长话短说，我连一半都了解不到，因为我显然更容易与以色列一方产生共鸣，而不是加沙一方。

And so long story short and I don't know the half of it because I obviously, I connect far easier to the Israeli side than to the Gaza side.

但我想，在理想的世界里，坐下来和一个来自波兰的人交谈，你会说：‘你一定承受着巨大的痛苦，对吧？’

But, I would imagine in an ideal world, sitting down with somebody from, even somebody in Poland say, you're in enormous pain, aren't you?

抱歉。

And sorry.

我绕了这么一大圈才问这个问题。

That was a long way of asking that question.

我觉得这很重要。

I think it's important.

我觉得，这正是我们过去几天一直在讨论的事情：很容易忘记这些争论中另一方的人性。

I think it's, this is one of the things that you and I have been discussing over the last few days is how easy it is to forget the humanity of people on other sides of any of these arguments.

在美国，特朗普时期发生的一件事就是，共和党人开始憎恨民主党人，反之亦然。

It's one of the things that happened in The US with with Trump that Republicans started to to hate Democrats and vice versa.

所以我听了安德鲁·沙利文的播客《Dishcast》，他采访了一位资深主播，对方说美国政治出问题的一个关键点是，在纽特·金里奇的时代，国会开始安装摄像机，政客们开始对着镜头表演，而不是面对面交流。

And so I listened to someone there's a very good podcast that, Andrew Sullivan has called Dishcast, and he was he was talking to, an old anchorman who was saying that one of the things that went wrong in US politics was that in the age of Newt Gingrich, they started to have cameras in in congress, and the politicians started to play to the cameras instead of looking each other in the eye across the benches.

一旦他们不再把对方当作有血有肉的人，不再需要直视对方的眼睛，就更容易把对方妖魔化。

And once they no longer saw each other as humans and no longer had to look each other in the eye, it was much easier to demonize each other.

所以我认为，对于我们所有人——无论站在哪一方——在加沙、乌克兰、特朗普、堕胎、枪支等任何议题上，最大的挑战之一，就是设法拉回自己，提醒自己对方也是有血有肉的人。

And so I think one of the great challenges for all of us on on both sides, on every side of these debates, whether it's whether it's Gaza, Ukraine, poll know, Trump, abortion, guns, any of these things, is somehow to yank ourselves back to remind ourselves of the humanity of the people on the other side.

无论我们如何看待他们，无论我们认为他们多么 misguided，他们也认为我们 misguided，都不要忘记他们的为人。

Whatever whatever we think of them, however misguided we think they are, and they think we're misguided too, not to forget their humanity.

所以，这对我来说是一个真正的挑战，因为当我因政治、地缘政治或其他任何事情感到愤怒、痛苦、焦虑时，我很容易把自己封闭起来，退回到自己的教条和偏见中。

So that's that's that's one thing that's a real challenge for me because in my in my anger and my pain or my distress or my anxiety about politics or geopolitics or any other thing, it's very easy for me to kind of batten down the hatches and just sort of retreat into my own sense of dogma and prejudice.

我认为这很关键。

I think that's key.

你和我讨论过的另一件事，我觉得非常有趣，是大卫·布鲁克斯的一个洞见，这个观点其实也来自大卫·布鲁克斯在《Dishcast》播客中与安德鲁·沙利文的对话。大卫·布鲁克斯是《纽约时报》著名的专栏作家，他说：你应当问人们，是什么经历让他们形成了这样的信念？

The other thing you and I discussed that I thought was very interesting was an insight from David Brooks that actually also came from a discussion that David Brooks had had on the DISHcast, podcast with Andrew Sullivan, which is David Brooks is this great New York Times columnist and writer said, you you wanna ask people what experience led you to have these beliefs?

这正是你我昨天讨论过的内容——能够温和地向他人经历敞开心扉，这种能力具有强大的力量。

And this is something you and I discussed yesterday, that there's something so powerful about that ability to kind of gently open yourself up to the experience of the other person.

你能谈谈这一点吗？

Can can you talk about that?

因为这似乎是一个非常有价值的洞见。

Because it seems to be a really valuable insight.

所以，我想先简单谈谈这一点：看见他人的痛苦，以及无法看见他人痛苦的问题。

So, the first place I wanna go briefly is, this idea of seeing somebody else's pain and the inability to see somebody else's pain.

我想起早年和劳丽一起接受我的荣格派心理治疗师索伦·埃克斯特罗姆的治疗，愿上帝保佑他。

And, you know, I go back to an early therapy session with Laurie with my then Jungian psychotherapist called Soren Ekstrom, God bless his soul.

自从我不再做他的客户或受治者后，就再也没有和他联系过，但他真是个了不起的人。

I haven't had any contact with him since I stopped being his client slash, subject, but really incredible guy.

后来劳丽去找了他。

And and Laurie came to him.

那时我们正处在一场激烈的争吵中。

We were in the midst of a big fight.

所以，你知道，当劳丽从她的角度倾诉时，我必须保持安静；然后轮到我表达时，她也得安静听，而我当时满心愤怒。

And so, you know, I had to be quiet while Laurie laid it out from her side, and then she had to be quiet while I laid it out from my side, and I was full of anger.

他转向劳丽，说：

And and he turned to Laurie.

你看到他有多痛苦吗？

He said, do you see how much pain he's in?

我当时满心愤怒。

I was full of anger.

那只是短短一瞬间。

And it was just a moment.

我不认为劳里在那一刻看到了我有多痛苦。

And and I don't think that Laurie saw at that moment how much pain I was in.

她可能在整个治疗过程中都没意识到这一点，但那些话随着时间慢慢沉淀了下来。

And she may not have seen it for the rest of the therapy session, but just those words over time sank in.

因此，我真的很想找到一个能与那些代表巴勒斯坦立场的人坐在一起的锚点，我认为他们正承受着巨大的痛苦，然后对他说：天啊。

And, so I I find myself really wanting to get some kind of anchor who will who will sit with some of the some of the people who are representing the Palestinian case, I think, awfully and say, wow.

你们承受着巨大的痛苦。

You guys are in a lot of pain.

你们承受着巨大的痛苦。

You're in a lot of pain.

对不起，威廉，因为我本想说这句话，但我还没真正回应你的问题。

I'm sorry, William, because I wanted to say that, but I've not really addressed the question.

所以请把我拉回到问题上来。

So please bring me back to the question.

重要的是，我们之前讨论过大卫·布鲁克斯提出的这个观点，即去探究是什么经历让一个人形成了他现在的想法。

Well, it's important to we were talking about this idea from David Brooks, this idea of, asking what experience led the person to think what they think.

因为目前发生的一部分情况，正好触及了查理·芒格的问题。

Because at the moment, part of what's happening this gets at Charlie Munger.

对吧？

Right?

查理·芒格曾谈到，人们只想回到自己的回音室，陷入他所说的极端意识形态中。

Charlie Munger would talk about how people just wanna go back into their echo chamber and get into what he would call heavy ideology.

他提到过巴菲特的父亲持有强烈的意识形态。

He talked about Buffett's father having heavy ideology.

所以，某种程度上，我们讨论的是如何以一种不只强化自身极端意识形态和偏见的方式行事，而是开放自己，接纳他人的观点。

And so in a way, what we're talking about is how to have how to operate in a way where you're not just reinforcing your own heavy ideology and biases, but opening yourself up to other people's perspectives.

从实际操作的角度来说，芒格作为一位共和党人，会阅读像保罗·克鲁格曼这样他非常不同意的人写的文章。

And, I mean, one of the things that that Munger would do in practical terms is, as a republican, he would read articles by people like Paul Krugman, who he disagreed with a great deal.

但他会说：‘这是一位非常聪明的民主党人。’

But he's like, this is one really smart Democrat.

是的

Yeah.

他希望去了解对方的观点。

And he wanted to engage with his views.

因此，他有意识地与对立面进行交流。

So he was very consciously engaging with the other side.

结果，他是一个思想开放的人，能够说：他是个共和党人，但最终却投票给了希拉里·克林顿。

And as a result, he was a free enough thinker that he could say, well so he was a Republican who who ended up voting for Hillary Clinton.

这并不是一场政治辩论。

And I'm this is not a political debate.

我们真正讨论的是，无论你站在哪一边，都能敞开心扉接受对立观点的能力。

What we're really talking about is the ability to open yourself up to the opposing view, whatever side you're coming from.

我真正想表达的是，我们该如何做到这一点。

That's what I'm really trying to get at is how we do that.

而且，对。

And, yeah.

那么，我该去哪里快速找到答案？

So, where do I go fast?

某种程度上，这确实是媒体和社交媒体以及沟通方式带来的一个问题，让我感到非常不安的是，有些这样的人其实是讲道理的，可以与之妥协的，他们能够看到对方的立场并理解对方的叙事。

Something that sort of, like, in a way, it's just a problem in, with media and social media and the way communication works is that it really upsets me that some of these people are reasonable people with whom one can compromise, who can see the other side and understand the other's narrative.

但他们知道，为了当选或赢得支持者，他们必须说一些明知不真实的话，或隐瞒部分真相，因为这就是政治游戏的胜出方式。

But they know that in order to get elected or in order to win their supporters over, they have to say things that they know are not true or leave half of the truth out because that's how you win in the political game.

我觉得这真的让我很困扰，我不知道答案是什么。

And I think that that's that's kind of, like, just distressing to me, and I don't know what the answer is.

谈到瑞士的政治文化，我真的不知道该如何构建这样的体系——如何让社会真正尊重那些最能代表中间立场的人？

When it comes to Swiss political culture, and I really I I think I don't know how you construct this, that, you know, how do you get to a place where what is truly respected in society is the person who can best represent the middle ground?

真正被尊重的，是那些能够向观众充分展示他们理解对立面立场，并深入探讨的人，这正是我们所说的疗愈过程。

What is truly respected is the person who can best demonstrate to an audience that they understand the opposing side's position and to really go into it in-depth, which is kind of like this healing process that we're talking about.

我认为我还没有花足够的时间去研究或亲身体验政治。

And I don't think that I've spent enough time studying or experiencing politics.

我只是像个旁观者一样在旁边闲聊。

I just, like, am a kibbitzah from the side.

但在以色列一方，也有人试图理解巴勒斯坦人的叙事。

But there are people on the Israeli side who seek to understand, say, the Palestinian narrative.

我说巴勒斯坦叙事，是因为没必要纠结于事实。

And I say Palestinian narrative because there's no point getting into facts.

这关乎叙事，而我想特别提到一位名叫艾纳特·威尔夫的女性，她是由希勒尔·诺耶介绍给我的。我相信阿摩司·奥兹也做过类似的努力，他们都在告诉以色列人：这个国家是在大屠杀之后建立的。

This is a narrative, and what they try and do and I'm thinking specifically of a woman called Einat Wilf who who was introduced to me by Hillel Noyer, and, she has worked hard, as I believe did Amos Oz, and is to say to Israelis, look, this country was created in the wake of the Holocaust.

犹太人因为没有国家而遭受了大量暴力，这种感受确实令人欣慰。

There was much violence that was done to Jews because they didn't have a state, and that feels really good.

我们拥有属于自己的一套历史叙事。

And we have a have a history that we tell ourselves.

但为了与这片土地上同样居住着的这群人实现真正持久的和平，

But in order for us to make peace, real true and lasting peace with this set of people who are also occupying the land.

我知道我们要么选择忽视他们的叙事，要么挑刺他们的叙事，证明它不符合历史事实。

I know that we want to either ignore their narrative or we want to pick holes in their narrative and show that it doesn't correspond to historical fact.

但无论如何，我们与生活在大致相同空间的人群实现真正和解的唯一途径，就是真正地去接触他们的叙事，至少，即使你不同意，也应表达共情——因为我们永远都会存在分歧。

But one way or another, the only way we're going to get to a true resolution of our differences with the population that inhabits more or less the same space is to engage with their narrative in a real way and to at least, even if you disagree with it, because we'll always disagree with it, express empathy.

在这种情况下，阿摩司·奥兹之所以能这么做，是因为他是一位作家，如果他写这样的言论，永远不可能当选。

Now what happens to an Amos Oz in that kind of situation is that he could do that because he was an author, because he would never have gotten elected by by writing and saying things like that.

阿摩司·奥兹是一位非常著名、广为人知的以色列作家，虽然他已经去世，但他的女儿叫法尼娅·奥兹。

And Amos Oz is a very famous, well known Israeli author who's no longer around, but his daughter is Fania Oz is her name.

同样，艾纳特·威尔夫，这位了不起的女性曾是以色列议会议员，可能还曾被以色列提名为驻联合国代表，她曾与我坐在一起，她有一半法国血统，母亲是法国人。

And, similarly, Einat Wilf, I mean, amazing woman who was a member of the Knesset, might have been Israel's nomination for its representative in the United Nations, who sat with me, she's part French, so her mother's French.

我们有幸在法国南部见过一次，她当时和我坐在一起。

She she sat with me in the South Of France in the one time that we were lucky.

我有幸两次见到她。

I was lucky twice I've met her.

她必须做出选择，也就是说，这并不算什么深刻的事。

And she had to make the decision between telling I mean, this is kind of like nothing profound.

是撒谎以赢得选举，还是保持思想上的诚实。

Telling lies to get elected or being intellectually honest.

她决定要保持思想上的诚实。

And she decided that she wanted to be intellectually honest.

我认为，本雅明·内塔尼亚胡如今所变成的这个人，最让我感到失望的是，他似乎已经完全接受为了政治上的便利而撒谎。

And I think that what is deeply disappointing to me about the person, it seems, that Benjamin Netanyahu has evolved into is that he has become utterly fine with telling lies, it seems to me, in order to be politically expedient.

现在的他，与他职业生涯初期那个虽有缺陷但至少我感觉其言论还基于现实的人已经截然不同了。他非常擅长以某种方式与以色列社会的特定群体沟通，但这种方式既无益也无建设性。

And he's a different person now to the person he was flawed as he was at the very beginning of his career, where I felt like what he was talking about was in some way rooted in realities, and he's very, very capable of talking to a specific portion of Israeli society in ways that are just not helpful and productive.

但是

But

我的意思是，某种程度上，我甚至不想深入讨论这种具体的政治问题。

I mean, in a way, I don't I don't even really wanna get into the specifics of politics like that.

我想我真正想表达的是，政治家们玩的是一种特定的游戏，正如你所指出的，这使得他们很难保持诚实，也让他们极易利用和加剧分裂。

I think it's more more what I'm getting at is politicians are playing a particular game, as you point out, which makes it hard for them to be honest and makes it very tempting for them to exploit division and exacerbate division.

我认为，我们正在努力寻找的——我们稍后可以跳过这个话题——其实也是我们许多朋友和同龄人正在摸索的方向：努力摆脱狭隘的意识形态、愤怒和仇恨，转而采取一种更温暖的方式——拥抱彼此，带着爱与开放的心态去理解那些拥有不同经历的人，而不是一开始就认定‘我才是对的’。

I think I think what we're trying to and we can move on from this subject in a second, but I think what what you and I are groping towards is what a lot of our our friends and peers are groping towards, which is to try to get to a place where we're not boxing ourselves into narrow ideologies and anger and hatred, but we're like it's it's more that action of you hugging as ease and looking at each other with love and openness to learn from people with different experiences rather than coming at it thinking, I'm right.

你们根本不理解我，而且我觉得我受到了威胁。

You guys don't understand me, and I'm under threat.

所以，我觉得你和我都在这方面的做法上犯过错误。

And I I so I I feel like you and I have both made our mistakes on this front.

我们其实不知道该如何在这一方面进行互动。

We don't really know how to engage on this front.

但这正是我们正在慢慢摸索的事情。

But that's what we're sort of working out.

如果我们所有人都能朝着这个方向努力，我认为这在未来几年将是一个巨大的挑战，因为这些分歧在各个领域都不会消失。

And the more all of us can work towards that, I think I I think that's, that's an incredible challenge over the next few years because these divisions are not going away in all of these different areas.

我的意思是，我想回到个人层面，因为我觉得这是我最有体会的地方。

I mean, just wanna bring it back to the personal because that's where I feel like I have the best experiences.

我相信自己的经历，这些是实实在在的数据，我可以分享，而不会去谈论那些我并不真正了解的事情。

I can trust my experiences, and it's it's, empirical data that I feel I can share without kind of fluffing around and things that I don't really know a lot about.

所以我回到自己的经历，以及我与妻子劳里最重要的关系，我不知道我有没有跟你说过这个故事。

So I come back to my experiences and my most important relationship with Laurie, my wife, and I don't know if I've told you this story.

当这件事发生时，对我来说简直不可思议。

It it was kind of utterly miraculous for me when it happened.

我认为我的个人经历，你所问的是，我们该如何将这种体验转化为政治层面的行动？

And I think that my personal experience, what you're asking for is how do we translate that into the political realm?

我不知道该如何转化它，但我感觉谈论我的个人经历，并表达这种经历可以被转化的希望，我相信它是可以的。

And I don't know how to translate it, but I feel like talking about my personal experience and expressing the hope that it can be translated, I do believe it can be.

所以我就带你回顾一下这个真正的奇迹。

So I'll just take you through the the the sort of miracle, really.

我觉得这简直是个奇迹。

I felt it was miraculous.

这是我们关系的早期阶段。

So it's early on in our relationship.

我们还没有孩子，但我相信劳丽怀孕了。

We have no children, but I believe that Laurie's pregnant.

劳丽和我拥有这段非凡的婚姻，婚礼盛况空前，现在大概是二月。

Laurie's we've had this incredible marriage, it was a fantastic celebration, and now it's probably sort of February.

劳丽现在怀孕了，而纽约的冬天一片漆黑，我在办公室度过了糟糕的一天。

And Laurie's now pregnant, and it's a dark winter in New York City, and I've had a lousy day at the office.

劳丽当初独自一人来到美国，她来自墨西哥最大的法国社群，当时非常孤单。

And Laurie, came to The US with the largest French base in in Mexico, kind of alone and lonely.

但我一进门，就像往常一样，今天过得糟透了，直接走进电视房，打开电视，像很多男人那样放空自己。

And but I walk in through the door and do what I would often do, which is I had a lousy day, walk straight through to the TV room, flip on the TV and zone out the way I think many men do at the time.

这是一种放空自己的方式。

That was the way a way to zone out.

劳里走进房间，情绪几乎崩溃。

And Laurie comes into the room and she's beside herself.

她说：你根本不爱我，连句问候都没有。

She's like, you don't love me, and you didn't even say hello to me.

我可能进门时只是哼了一声，以最简单的方式回应了她。

I probably thought I'd grump to did a grunt as I walked through the door, acknowledged her in a very basic way.

我脑海中涌起的念头是：大喊大叫、责骂，用一些难听的字眼。

And and what comes up for me is is like, screaming, yelling, ungrateful b words.

我一整天都在与世界搏斗，过得很糟糕。

Here I am battling the world all day, had a lousy day.

而你却什么事都没做。

Yet you've had nothing to do.

你整天闲逛，花我的钱，你知道的，你唯一要做的就是，也许在一天结束时给我做点吃的，而我只想看电视，你却还要来给我找麻烦？

You've been hanging out, spending my money, you know, and like, all you've gotta do is, like, maybe make some freaking food for me at the end of the day, and all I wanna do is watch television, and you are gonna come and give me grief?

所以我想对她说的话，就快脱口而出了。

So this is what I wanna say to her, is on the tip of my tongue.

我心想：别在我面前晃了，让我一个人待着。

I'm like, get out of my face and leave me the hell alone.

但不知怎么的，我记起了几次婚姻咨询的情景，真的，威廉，我咬着牙说出了那番话。

And instead, you know, by some miracle, I remember some of the marital counseling sessions, and literally, William, I I I really am I I say it through gritted teeth.

我自己都不相信自己在说什么。

I don't believe what I'm saying.

我说这些话的时候，根本不是发自内心的。

I don't own what I'm saying when I say it.

所以你的意思是，当我进门走过你身边时，你觉得我忽视了你，对吧？

So what you're telling me is when I walked through the door and I walked past, you felt like I had ignored you, you know.

即使这样说了，语气还这么紧绷，我想说，我确实跟你打过招呼了，也没必要非得长篇大论。

And even in saying that in that way, in that kind of tense up way, wanna say, and I did say hello to you, and I I didn't have to go long into it.

她满腔愤怒，突然哭了起来，说：是的。

And she's full of rage and anger, and she she bursts into tears, and she says, yes.

我感到非常内疚，这对我来说太难了，就在那一刻，我现在都快哭了。

And I felt so unnobbed, and it's been so difficult for me, and I, you know, in that moment, I'm tearing up right now.

我内心的一切都改变了。

Everything changed inside me.

那简直是个奇迹。

That was a miracle.

我当时就想，天哪，真是不可思议。

And I was like, you know, it was like, holy moly.

我们经历过很多这样的事，但威廉，我真的是咬着牙在努力，甚至只是以最微小的方式在尝试。

And and we've been through many of those things, but how you know, through gritted teeth, William, I wasn't even I was trying in the most minimal way.

这就是关系中可能发生的变化，而中东地区也需要这样的转变。

So that is the transformation that is capable of happening in a in a relationship, and that is what needs to happen in The Middle East, for example.

至于我们该如何实现，我也不知道。

And how we get there, don't know.

是的

Yeah.

但我认为这必须始于愿意去理解他人的经历和人性，并超越我们自身狭隘的偏见。

But I think it has to start with a willingness to a willingness to see the other person's experience and their humanity and to get over our own our own narrow narrow prejudices.

所以我不确定。

So I I I don't know.

我希望通过梳理这些想法对我有帮助，因为我总是搞砸。

I hope I hope it's it's helpful for me to think this through because I because I mess it up the whole time.

我本来想换个话题。

I wanted to I wanted to switch.

是的

Yeah.

谢谢你为这些内容提供空间。

Thank you for thank you giving the space for that.

我觉得这对我来说更真实，因为目睹这一切让我深感痛苦。

I think that this feels more this is even more authentic to me because it's been deeply distressing to watch this.

这件事以各种方式都令人深感痛苦，我觉得至少我们在尊重那些目前正在遭受痛苦的人，威廉，恕我直言，我每天都在关心那些身处地下的人。

It's been deeply distressing in all sorts of different ways, and I feel like at least we're honoring the people who are in distress right now, and I specifically, forgive me, William, I I I walk around every day caring about these people who are underground.

他们现在被扣为人质了。

They've been held hostage now.

卡菲爾·比巴斯，你知道的，已經一歲多瞭。

Kafir Bibas is, you know, more than one year old.

他將會度過他生命中將近三分之一的時間作為人質。

He's he's he's gonna be he spent about a third to it's gonna come up for more than a third of his life as a hostage.

任何孩子都不應該經歷這種事，而當我說這句話時，我偶爾會在推特上發佈一些受傷的加沙兒童的照片，我想說的是，任何加沙兒童都不應該承受這些，這同樣是極其錯誤的。

No child no child should ever have to do that, and while I'm saying that, and I've posted this on Twitter, from time to time photographs of injured Gaza children, and what I want to say is that no Gaza child, no child should have to deal with that, and that is also deeply wrong.

我們，是的。

We Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以谢谢你。

So thank you.

让我们短暂休息一下，听听今天的赞助商。

Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

不，这不是你的错觉。

No, it's not your imagination.

风险和监管正在加剧，客户现在要求提供安全证明才能开展业务。

Risk and regulation are ramping up and customers now expect proof of security just to do business.

这就是为什么Vanta是一个变革者。

That's why Vanta is a game changer.

Vanta自动化了您的合规流程，将合规、风险和客户信任整合到一个AI驱动的平台上。

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无论您是在准备SOC 2审计，还是在运行企业GRC项目，Vanta都能确保您的安全并推动交易继续进行。

So whether you're prepping for a SOC two or running an enterprise GRC program, Vanta keeps you secure and keeps your deals moving.

像Ramp和Ryder这样的公司使用Vanta后，审计时间减少了82%。

Companies like Ramp and Ryder spend 82% less time on audits with Vanta.

这不仅仅是更快的合规，更是更多的时间用于增长。

That's not just faster compliance, it's more time for growth.

我喜欢Vanta让你轻松跟上合规要求，而不会完全打乱你的工作流程。

I love how Vanta makes it easy to stay on top of your compliance without it taking over your entire workflow.

它只是简化了一件通常比实际需要更痛苦的事情。

It just simplifies something that's usually way more painful than it needs to be.

立即前往 vanta.com/billionaires 开始使用。

Get started at vanta.com/billionaires.

那就是 vanta.com/billionaires。

That's vanta.com/billionaires.

开始一件新事情不仅困难，而且真的有点可怕。

Starting something new isn't just hard, it's honestly kind of terrifying.

我仍然记得在我真正决定做播客之前的那些时刻。

I still remember those moments right before I really committed to podcasting.

夜里辗转反侧，想着如果没人听怎么办？

Lying awake at night thinking, what if no one listens?

如果这件事彻底失败了怎么办？

What if this completely flops?

或者，如果我只是纯粹在浪费时间呢？

Or what if I'm just straight up wasting my time?

尽管克服那种怀疑并不容易，但迈出这一步最终成了我做过的最好的决定之一。

And even though pushing past that doubt was not easy, making the leap ended up being one of the best decisions I've ever made.

我要说的是，当你有合适的工具支持时，这会帮助很大。

And I'll say this, it helps a lot when you have the right tools on your side.

而这就是Shopify发挥作用的地方。

And that's where Shopify comes in.

Shopify是数百万企业的电商平台，约占美国所有电子商务的10%，从家喻户晓的大品牌到刚刚起步的新锐品牌都在使用。

Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses and about 10% of all e commerce in The US, from massive household names to brands just getting started.

如果你曾经想过：‘如果我不知道怎么建店怎么办？’

If you've ever thought, What if I don't know how to build a store?

Shopify提供数百个精美且即用的模板，完美契合你的品牌风格，让这一切变得简单。

Shopify makes it easy with hundreds of beautiful, ready to use templates that actually match your brand.

或者，如果我没有时间做所有事情呢？

Or what if I don't have time to do everything?

Shopify 内置的 AI 工具可以帮助撰写产品描述、标题，甚至优化产品图片。

Shopify's built in AI tools help write product descriptions, headlines, and even enhance your product photos.

是时候用 Shopify 将这些‘如果’变为现实了。

It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today.

今天就前往 shopify.com/wsb 注册，享受每月 1 美元的试用。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com/wsb.

前往 shopify.com/wsb。

Go to shopify.com/wsb.

就是 shopify.com/wsb。

That's shopify.com/wsb.

亿万富翁投资者通常不会把资金存放在高收益储蓄账户中。

Bill Billion dollar investors don't typically park their cash in high yield savings accounts.

相反，他们常常采用机构投资者常用的被动收入策略——私人信贷。

Instead, they often use one of the premier passive income strategies for institutional investors, private credit.

如今，得益于 Fundrise 收入基金，这一被动收入策略已向所有规模的投资者开放，该基金已吸引超过6亿美元投资，分红率达7.97%。

Now the same passive income strategy is available to investors of all sizes, thanks to the Fundrise Income Fund, which has more than $600,000,000 invested and a 7.97% distribution rate.

随着传统储蓄收益率下降，私人信贷在近几年成长为万亿美元资产类别也就不足为奇了。

With traditional savings yields falling, it's no wonder private credit has grown to be a trillion dollar asset class in the last few years.

立即访问 fundrise.com/wsb，只需几分钟即可投资 Fundrise 收入基金。

Visit fundrise.com/wsb to invest in the Fundrise Income Fund in just minutes.

该基金在2025年的总回报率为8%，自成立以来的平均年总回报率为7.8%。

The fund's total return in 2025 was 8% and the average annual total return since inception is 7.8%.

过往业绩并不预示未来表现。

Past performance does not guarantee future results.

截至2025年1月20日12:30的当前分配率。

Current distribution rate as of twelvethirty onetwenty twenty five.

投资前请仔细考虑投资材料，包括目标、风险、费用和开支。

Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses.

更多信息可参阅收入基金的招股说明书：fundrise.com/income。

This and other information can be found in the income funds prospectus @fundrise.comslashincome.

这是一则付费广告。

This is a paid advertisement.

好的。

All right.

回到节目。

Back to the show.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

这是一个非常重要的，非常重要的主题。

It's a it's a very important it's a very important subject.

我们之前讨论过这个长期复利旅程的概念。

We talked before about this idea of this long term compounding journey.

你和我讨论过的一件事是，你已经在这条路上走了26年，我们有时会说，比如几年前，我们会说你已经走了一半，但现在我们开始想，嗯，你再过几天就要满58岁了。

And one of the things you and I have discussed is you're twenty six years into this, and we sometimes talk about, okay, so like a couple of years ago, we would say, so let's say you're halfway through this journey, and now we're starting to think, well, okay, so you're about to turn 58, I think, in a couple of days.

没错。

That's true.

谢谢提醒我。

Thanks for reminding me.

我其实还一直抱着57岁不放。

I was really holding on to that 57.

你知道吗，7是个不错的质数，个位数上。

Know, nice prime number in the second digit.

所以前几天我跟你说过，等等看。

And so I was sort of saying to you the other day, well, wait a second.

假设你再继续做这个基金十年、十二年、十五年。

So let's say you do the fund for another ten, twelve, fifteen years.

你知道，这已经不再是中途了。

You know, it's probably not halfway through anymore.

我们前几天算了一下，如果你每年继续以9%的复利增长，这听起来并不算特别惊人，但最初那1400万美元将超过十亿美元。

I mean, we we figured out the other day that if you continue to compound at 9% a year, which doesn't sound that fantastic, that original $14,000,000 in the fund becomes over a billion.

这有多么非凡，就是这样。

That's how extraordinary it is.

如果你持续超过半个世纪保持9%的增长，那最初的本金就会变成十亿。

If you continue to combat over half a century, 9% would turn that that original stake into a billion.

所以这是一个巨大的数字。

So it's an it's an enormous number.

但你和我之前在讨论，这一切的意义到底在哪里呢？

But you and I were sort of discussing, like, what's the point in it all anyway?

你提到，当我展望未来时，我真正追求的是什么？

And you were talking about, well, so so as I look to the future, what am I really aiming for?

真正有意义且美好的生活到底是什么样子？其中有多少部分与金钱和持续复利有关，又有多少部分与培养生活的其他方面有关？

What does a meaningful and beautiful life actually look like, and what part in that is, to do with money and continuing to compound, and and what part is developing these other areas of life?

我想知道，你能否谈谈，对于什么是真正创造一种有意义、越来越有意义且美好的生活，你的看法是如何演变的？

And I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about how your views have evolved on this question of what actually creating a meaningful life, an increasingly meaningful and beautiful life actually looks like for you.

这确实是值得感谢的事情。

And it's something that thank you.

这也是我一直纠结的问题，因为对我来说并不明确。

And something that I've struggled with because it's it's not clear to me.

所以我认为，当你拥有移民心态时，并不意味着你一定是第一代移民，但移民心态首先意味着追求安全感，而我认为非移民群体很难完全理解那种不安感，或者说，是在一个你并不完全熟悉其规则的社会中所感受到的不安。

So I think that when you have an immigrant's mindset, doesn't mean necessarily you're a first generation immigrant, might be just but the the immigrant mindset is, first of all, to, acquire security, and I don't think that non immigrants can fully understand, the sense of unease and, yeah, I guess it's the sense of unease of being in a society where you don't fully know your way.

我想以英国为例，我的家人——从我父母开始，他们在11岁时移民到英国——我认为我们至今仍在探索英国真正意味着什么的旅程中。

And I would say with The UK, you know, my family, starting with my mother and father who immigrated to The UK when I was 11 years old, I I would argue that we're still on a journey of understanding what The United Kingdom is really about.

我认为这是一个尤其复杂的社会，拥有极其复杂的社会体系，而我仍处在不断学习和逐渐理解的过程中。

It's a particularly complex, I think, society with a very, very complex social system, and I'm on a learning curve that I'm still going through and and getting to.

我认为，许多移民出于合理的原因，会迫切追求经济安全。

And I think that many immigrants understandably lunge for financial security.

因此，在许多国家，移民群体中涌现出大量非常成功的创业者，因为创业正是安全感的来源。

That is why in many countries, immigrant populations, there are many very successful entrepreneurs amongst immigrant populations, because that is the source of security.

当我回望过去时，我认为这正是推动我做现在所做之事的部分动力。

And I think that when I look back, that is part of what's motivated me to be doing what I'm doing.

我们之前讨论过，我也曾在我的年度信件中写到，这种安全感或缺乏安全感的感觉往往会延续好几代人。

And we've talked, and I think I've written in my annual letters, about that, you know, often the the kind of that sense of security or not goes back generations.

就我而言，我认为20世纪30年代发生了一个关键转折——当时我家在德国的所有财富都被彻底摧毁，我们不得不从头再来。

So in my case, I think there's a particular break in the nineteen thirties when any family wealth that my family had in Germany was completely destroyed, and that was kind of starting again.

而这件事令人着迷的地方在于，我认为我们需要意识到它，因为它无论我们是否愿意都会影响我们；我父亲、祖父母或亲戚们从未坐下来跟我讲过这个故事，但我们从小就在这种氛围中成长。

And what's fascinating about this is that I think that we need to be aware of it because it influences us whether we like it or not, and it's not like my father or my grandparents or relatives ever sat down with me and told me that story, but we grow up living with it.

因此，把它明确说出来是值得的。

And so it is worthwhile to make it explicit.

我感到困惑的地方是——我跟你说过，我想用的词是‘愚蠢’，但你知道，我们面前这位先生读过的英文单词比我们多得多，也许某天他还会去读普鲁斯特。

The place where I struggle is that, and I've said this to you, it seems to me to be asinine is the word that I wanna use, but, you know, we're in front of a guy who has read many more words of English and maybe will get on to Proust at some point.

那是查理·芒格的原话，‘愚蠢’。

That would be Charles Munger's words, asinine.

是的。

Yes.

确实如此。

It is.

我在这里用这个词是为了表达这个意思。

And I'm kind of using it to reference here.

但在深入之前，威廉，你介意告诉我，‘asinine’到底是什么意思？

But actually, before I go there, do you mind, William, what does asinine really mean?

这个词和幼稚、愚蠢、天真属于同一类词，所以用‘asinine’。

Well, it's it's it's in the same genre of words like puerile, stupid, naive, so asinine.

这有点傻。

It's kind of dumb.

这是一个更文雅的表达方式。

It's a fancy word for saying.

这会显得愚蠢、幼稚且荒谬。

It would be dumb and puerile and idiotic.

我想我的意思是，我用这个词只是因为查理·芒格用了它。

And I think that what's my point is that I'm using the word just because Charlie Munger used it.

实际上，我觉得对我来说更合适的词是‘肤浅’。

And actually, think the better word for me to use is shallow.

是的。

Yeah.

他会说‘asininatives’和‘inanatives’。

He would say asininatives and inanatives.

对。

Right.

但这是肤浅的，因为你真正想优化的是什么？

But it's shallow because what are you actually trying to optimize for?

而且，威廉，我认为你算过，根据预期寿命，我们只剩下不到一万小时。

And, you know, William, I think you worked out that we have less than ten thousand hours based on life expectancy.

是的。

Yeah.

我们可能不应该这么说，这是基于我和克里斯·戴维斯的对话。

Let's not probably, this is based on my conversation with, Chris Davis.

他说，一旦你到了大约54岁，就进入了第三个一万天的阶段。

He said once you hit about 54, you're into the third set of ten thousand days.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，考虑到我们已经进入了这个阶段，这可能把我们带入八十多岁。

And so given that we're into the this what may be you know, takes us into our early eighties.

所以，假设我作为一个55岁的人，你作为一个即将58岁的人，还剩下另外一万天的高效时光。

So let's say another ten thousand productive days that I have as a 55 year old and you as a soon to be 58 year old.

是的。

Yeah.

所以克里斯的观点是，如果你运用芒格的逆向思维法，你应该思考：什么会毁掉这最后的一万天？

So Chris's point was if you apply Munger's inversion technique, you wanna say, what could mess up these last ten thousand days?

然后我就避免做那些事。

And let me not do that.

无论如何，绝对如此，而且除此之外，真正有限的资源是我们生命的每一刻都被什么填满，以及我们希望它被什么填满。

In any case, absolutely, and over and above that, what is really the limited resource is what is every moment of our lives filled with and what do we want it to be filled with.

这一点我多次想到过，比如如果你问沃伦·巴菲特同样的问题，我相信他的回答会是：我只是非常非常享受分析公司，也非常非常享受继续打造这件名为伯克希尔·哈撒韦的艺术品——现代商业的博物馆。

And it's come up for me many times, is the moment so if you're Warren Buffett, to whom you could have asked the same question, his answer, I believe, would be, but I just really, really like looking at companies, and I really, really like continuing to work on this work of art that is Berkshire Hathaway, Museum of Modern Business.

我试过阅读，但我也不知道。

And I've tried reading I I don't know.

我可以想象沃伦会说：我试过读普鲁斯特，但完全提不起兴趣。

I could imagine Warren saying I've tried reading Proust, it really left me stone cold.

我记得那一刻，我意识到理查德让沃伦对我而言如此非凡的原因在于，他并不是那个整天沉迷于研究企业的人。

And and I remember that moment when I realized that what Richard made Warren so remarkable for me was that he wasn't trying to be that person who's utterly fascinated with examining businesses all day long.

他就是那样的人。

He is that person.

他曾尝试成为另一个人，但最终发现做不到。

And he's tried being a different person, and he isn't.

后来，在一次西科会议中，查理问起他读过哪些小说，他说自己现在几乎不读小说了，这让我感到不快。

And then I go to, some point at one of the Westco meetings where Charlie's asked what novels he's read, and he said that he doesn't read much in the fiction world anymore, and that irked me.

我意识到，我不希望余生都未曾读过各种小说作品，包括世界文学经典，仅仅因为我认为……实际上我后来才明白，就在过去十年里，我才读了《大卫·科波菲尔》《战争与和平》和《魔山》，我觉得自己因此变得更睿智、更好了。

And I realized that I did not want to go through the rest of my life having not read, you know, all sorts of works of fiction, including the world's great classics, just because I think that and I actually think that later so it's only in the last decade that I I read David Copperfield and War and Peace and The Magic Mountain, and I think I'm a wiser, better person for it.

所以对我而言，这最后的一万小时，我相信至少花一部分时间去接触这些文学巨匠的思想，会更有意义。

So for me, those last ten thousand hours, I believe it's more meaningful for me to spend at least some part of that time exposing myself to some of those great minds of literature.

而且，让我感到有趣的是，我始终无法选定某一位特定作家，我觉得这真的很美，我也很惊讶你竟然选了普鲁斯特——整整一百五十万字的《追忆似水年华》，你愿意花时间去读它。

And, you know, and it's fascinating for me that, you know, what I've not been able to do is to pick a particular author, and I think it's really beautiful, and I'm fascinated that you seem to have picked Proust all one and a half million words of in search of lost time that you've chosen to spend time with.

我所纠结的是，到目前为止，我一生都在以为自己和投资者创造财务安全为目标来规划生活。

So what I struggle with is that in a certain way, up to now, I set up my life with the goal of creating this, financial security for myself and my investors.

在某种程度上，我已经为那些一直陪伴我的人实现了这一点，至少包括那些从一开始就与我同行的人，比如我的父亲和我的家人。

In a certain way, I've achieved that for the people who've been with me, at least some of the people who've been with me from the beginning, including my father and my own family.

但我还没有真正想清楚未来该如何规划我的生活。

And I haven't really figured out the right way to structure my life going forwards.

我知道，对我而言，正确的答案并不是说——因为我确实热爱投资这一面，我不想把这一点完全排除，而是要为其他方面腾出空间，以实现平衡而丰富的人生。

And I know that the right answer for me is not to say, because I do love the investing side of things, and I don't wanna clean that off the table, but it's creating the space for the other things for a balanced and rich life.

对我而言，这涉及阅读、学习和成长，所以请原谅我。

And for me, that involves reading and learning and developing so so and then just forgive me.

回到财务安全这个话题，我想起一场演讲，之后我会把话筒交给你，看看你会如何继续，我想他的名字叫科利尔。

Going back to this financial security, and I go back to a talk that was given, and then I'll hand the mic over to you to see where you go, where this, I think his name is Collier.

我真希望记得他的名字。

I wish I remember would remember his first name.

在商学院毕业五周年聚会上，他对我们说：随着时间推移，你们中的许多人将不再参加同学会。

Five year reunion for business school where he talks to us and says, as the years go on, many of you will not return to your reunions.

他说，你们不回来的原因——他是基于自身经验和对商学院同学会的分析来说这番话的。

And the reason you don't return he said, I'm talking he was talking from experience, from analysis of business school reunions.

他说，不会是因为你的健康。

He said, it's not going to be your health.

不会是因为你的财富。

It's not going to be your wealth.

会是因为你搞砸了生活中一些重要的关系，很可能是与配偶的关系。

It's going to be because you messed up some important relationships in your life, quite probably the relationship with your spouse.

他对我们全体讲话，说：别担心你的财务状况。

He dressed us as a group, and he said, don't worry about your finances.

你们是哈佛商学院的毕业生。

You're graduates of Harvard Business School.

你们一定会做得很好。

You're going to do great.

你们的成就将远超绝大多数美国人。

You're going do far better than the vast majority of the American population.

要关注你资产负债表中非财务的那一部分，我敦促你们在这方面进行投资。

Worry about the non financial side of your balance sheet, and I urge you to invest in that.

所以我真的把这话记在了心里。

And so I really took that to heart.

那么，如果我不在财务之外的资产负债表上投资，为什么还要只想着如何在财务上变得更富有呢？

And so why would I continue to think about only getting, wealthier in a financial sense if I'm not investing in the nonfinancial side of my balance sheet?

我的家庭关系、我的心理健康，所有这些方面。

My family relationships, my psychological health, all of those things.

我想告诉你们的是，在过去几十年里，我一直在思考这个问题，其中让我感到失望且难以理解的一点是，尽管我们能为自己的孩子尽最大努力，即便如此——我还有青春期的孩子——你们之前安慰我的话让我很受触动。

What I would tell you is that having thought about that for the last couple of decades, one of the things that's been disappointing and hard for me to understand is that, you know, we can do as much as we can with our own children, and even then, I mean, I've got teenage children, you were very soothing to me.

我的意思是，结果常常与我们的期望和希望不同，而智慧的一部分就在于学会适应这种差异。

I mean, the outcomes are often different to what we hoped for and expect, and part of wisdom is learning to adjust to that.

当范围超出直系亲属时，你可以投入再多，但世界自有其运行方式。

And when it goes beyond immediate family, you can invest as much as you like, but the world has a way of taking over.

因此，答案也不是仅仅投资于个人资产负债表或资产的非财务部分。

So the answer is also not to just invest in the nonfinancial side of one's balance sheet or of one's assets.

所以我正在努力寻求一种平衡，但我觉得自己做得并不特别好。

But so I'm looking to kind of balance that out, and I don't think I've done a particularly good job.

而且我也有一种矛盾的感觉，我的意思是，你刚来的时候，我跟你说的第一件事就是，威廉，我感到很愧疚，因为我提供的不是奥马哈式的数字，而你却跟我一起投资。

And it's also there's a kind of a sense of sort of I feel conflicted because, I mean, one of the first things I said to you when you came was like, you know, William, I feel bad because I'm putting out not an Omaha number, and you're an investor with me.

我必须如实说明正在发生的事情。

I have to be honest about what's going on.

我对这些其他事情也很感兴趣。

I am interested in these other things.

这对我来说很难，我必须找到一种方式来应对和平衡。

So that's kind of hard for me, and I have to find a way to navigate my way through that.

我承诺要做的，而且我写下来了，所以我给威廉提供了一整套东西，那就是我决心坦诚面对这个过程，而不是去掩盖那些虽然很便利但却最终会导致生活更加贫瘠的事情。

And what I was committed to doing, and I wrote it somewhere, so I delivered to William a whole bunch of things, is I'm determined to be honest about this process and not to try and cover up something which it would be very expedient to do, but ultimately that will lead to a more diminished life.

我认为，当我问克里斯·戴维斯，沃伦私下里会谈论什么时，

I think in the way that when when I said to Chris Davis, what does Warren talk about in private?

他谈到沃伦多么强调让伯克希尔在未来几十年内保持韧性与坚不可摧。

And he talked about the extent to which Warren talks about making Berkshire resilient and bulletproof for many decades to come.

我认为人们会感到惊讶——虽然我们不能把自己和沃伦、克里斯·戴维斯相提并论——但过去一周乃至一直以来，我们的对话中有多少是在探讨：什么样的速度才是合适的？

I think people would be surprised at and not to equate ourselves with Warren and Chris Davis, but at how much of our conversations over the last week and and probably always are about these these questions of what's an appropriate speed limit?