RWH051：变革大师——布拉德·斯图尔伯格

而且他能保持世界级水平到33岁，这本身就说明了问题。

And just the fact that he made it to 33 being world class.

对吧？

Right?

33岁，在这项运动里你简直就是老古董了。

Like, 33, you're a dinosaur in that sport.

那么费德勒做了什么？

So what did Federer do?

在他状态低迷的前一年半里，他基本上采用了维持平衡的模式来应对变化。

For the first year and a half of his slump, he essentially followed a homeostasis model to change.

他试图回到过去的状态。

He tried to get back to where he was.

所以他不断碰壁，一直说：我是历史上最伟大的球员。

So he just kept beating his head against the wall and said, I'm the greatest player of all time.

我仍然想继续打网球。

I still wanna keep playing tennis.

我觉得我可以。

I think I can.

发生什么事了？

What happened?

他反复受伤并表现不佳。

He repeatedly got injured and underperformed.

而在这种表现下滑和伤病持续了一年半左右后，他突然顿悟到自己已经不再是当年的那个球员了。

And then about a year and a half into this journey of underperformance and injury, he had this epiphany that essentially said he's not the same player he was.

他变老了。

He has aged.

费德勒退后一步，做了运动员最难做到的一件事：他将自己核心的价值观——在这个情境下是竞争、精通和对网球的热爱——与习惯区分开来。

And Federer steps back and does something that is so hard for an athlete to do, and he separates what his core values are, which for him in this context, competition, mastery, and the love of the game of tennis from what's habit.

对他来说，习惯就是使用威尔逊球拍、在底线击球、双手反手、每周训练七天。

And for him, what habit was was a Wilson racket playing at the baseline, a two handed backhand, training seven days a week.

所以费德勒说：我想保留我的核心价值观。

So Federer says, I wanna hold on to my core values.

这些才是我力量的源泉。

Those are my sources of ruggedness.

我想继续打网球。

I wanna keep playing tennis.

我想继续竞争，继续沿着精通的道路前进。

I wanna keep competing, and I wanna keep moving down the path of mastery.

但为了做到这一点，他意识到自己必须在其他方面保持灵活。

But in order to do that, he realized he has to be flexible on everything else.

于是他彻底重塑了自己的打法。

So he completely reinvents his game.

他学会了单手反手，以减缓球速。

He learns a one handed backhand to take speed off the ball.

他更多地上网打球，这样可以缩短回合，避免再和年轻选手在底线来回奔跑。

He starts playing at the net more, which has the effect of shortening points so he doesn't have to run back and forth on the baseline against the younger kids.

他彻底调整了训练计划，以留出更多时间休息和恢复。

He completely overhauls his training schedule to allow more time for rest and recovery.

然后他甚至换了球拍。

And then he even changes his racket.

对吧？

Right?

他从15岁起就一直使用同一款球拍，那款球拍让他成为当时史上最伟大的网球选手。

So he had used the same racket since he's 15, made him the greatest tennis player ever at the time.

他采用了新款球拍，配备了所有年轻选手都在使用的全新技术。

And he adopts a new racket that has brand new technology that all the younger kids are using.

结果就是，在37岁时，他取得了职业生涯中最高的胜率。

And and the result of this is at age 37, he has the best winning percentage of his career.

他赢得了两项大满贯冠军。

He wins two major championships.

他重新回到了世界前三的排名，并且一直保持良好状态，直到40岁。

He reclaims a top three ranking in the world, and then he continues to play well until he hits 40.

因此，在我看来，这是一个完美的例子：清楚自己的核心价值观、坚韧的支柱、那些值得为之奋斗的原则，并用它们来指导变革中的决策，同时在其他所有方面保持高度灵活。

So to me, that's this beautiful example of knowing your core values, your sources of ruggedness, the hills you're gonna die on, using them to help determine your next moves during change, but then being very flexible on everything else.

当我写这本书时，我观看了费德勒26岁时和38岁时的比赛录像。

And when I was writing the book, I looked at tape of Federer playing when he was 26 and then again when he was 38.

一方面，他还是同一个罗杰·费德勒。

And on the one hand, he's the same Roger Federer.

但另一方面，他又完全不一样了。

And on the other hand, he's completely different.

我认为，这正是坚韧与灵活的真谛。

And I think that that's what rugged flexibility is all about.

随着时间推移，你依然是二十年前的那个你，但你也已经大不相同了。

Over time, you are the same William as you were twenty years ago, but you're also very different.

这引出了书中核心的智力问题——在自我认知始终变化的情况下，‘自我’究竟意味着什么？

And that gets to kind of the intellectual question at the heart of the book in those wisdom traditions is, what does it mean to have a sense of self when our very senses of selves are always changing?

这可能会让理性化的西方头脑崩溃，但答案是：两者皆是。

And I think it can make a rational Western brain explode, but the answer is both and.

我既是同一个我，又不是同一个我。

I'm both the same and I'm different.

费德勒运用这些核心价值观，即坚韧的源泉，来应对未知，并最终引导自己实现一种服务于核心价值观的重构。

And Federer is someone that used those core values, that source of ruggedness, to navigate the unknown and to ultimately lead himself to a reorder that worked in service of his core values.

你在《变革大师》的结论中提到的一种实践或技巧，实际上是培养一种流动的自我认知。

And one of the practices or tricks that you talk about in the conclusion of the Master of Change is actually developing a fluid sense of self.

这显然与你刚才谈到的费德勒的情况密切相关。

It's clearly related to what you were just talking about with Federer.

你能稍微展开讲一下吗？

Can you expand a little bit on that?

我知道这还与你受伤后不得不停止从事一项曾是你身份重要组成部分的运动有关。

And I know that it had a lot also to do with what happened to you when you had an injury and had to stop playing a sport that had obviously been a huge part of your identity.

你能给我们解释一下，什么是流动的自我认知，以及它为何能帮助我们更好地适应变化吗？

Can you give us a sense of why having a fluid sense of self, a, what it is, and b, why it would actually be helpful in enabling us to adapt to change?

流动的自我认知本质上是要求你将自我身份视为既非完全静态，也非完全模糊不定的东西。

A fluid sense of self essentially asks you to view your identity not as something that is completely static, but not as something that is completely amorphous either.

相反，要围绕你的价值观构建身份，并以较为宽泛的层次来定义这些价值观，然后愿意在这个框架内进行调整。

Rather, to create an identity around your values and define those values at a fairly broad level and then be willing to shift within that structure.

这非常抽象。

So that's very conceptual.

例如，我曾经很长时间把自己定义为一名跑步者。

For example, I, for a long time, had defined myself as a runner.

那是我身份的核心部分。

That was a central part of my identity.

然后我受伤了，再也无法跑步了。

Then I had this injury, and I could no longer run.

我接受了骨科手术。

And I had orthopedic surgery.

我是说，为了接受特殊的治疗，我去了怀俄明州。

I mean, I I went to Wyoming for this special treatment.

在常规治疗失败后，我全力以赴，但还是没用。

After the normal treatment failed, I gave it my all, and it didn't work.

我学到的是，我的价值其实并不在于跑步。

What I've learned is that my value isn't actually running.

我喜欢跑步的原因是它让我能有明确的目标，并在群体中追求它们。

What I liked about running was having objective goals that I could chase in community.

我也喜欢运用自己的身体并挑战自我。

And I also liked using my body and challenging myself.

但这些并不是跑步本身。

But that's not running.

这些是精通。

That's mastery.

这些是社群，以及成为运动员。

That's community, and that's being an athlete.

如果我能将自我认同定义为重视精通、运动能力和社群的人，那么失去跑步并不意味着失去身份。

And if I could define my identity as someone that values mastery and athleticism and community, then losing running is not a loss of identity.

这只是我表达身份一部分的方式发生了转变，但并不会让我觉得失去了自我。

It's a shift in how I express that part of my identity, but it doesn't feel like a loss of who I am.

所以当我看到或听到人们将自己与某项具体活动紧密绑定时，我会劝他们思考：真正核心的是这项活动本身，还是背后更深一两层的东西？

So when I see people and I hear people identify very closely with a specific activity, I urge them to think about, is it really the activity that is core to who you are, or is it something that is maybe a layer or two deeper?

这与书中一个由人本主义哲学家埃里希·弗洛姆提出的框架密切相关，即‘拥有’与‘存在’。

This very much relates to a framework in the book that was first developed by the humanist philosopher Eric Fromm, having versus being.

‘拥有’是指你通过自己所拥有的东西来定义自己。

And having is when you define yourself by what you have.

我拥有这套技能。

So I have this skill set.

我拥有这份收入。

I have this income.

我拥有这栋房子。

I have this house.

我拥有这个孩子。

I have this child.

我拥有这段关系。

I have this relationship.

弗洛姆指出，你所拥有的一切终将改变，而且在某个时刻，很可能会被夺走。

And what Fram points out is that, well, everything that you have is gonna change, and at some point, it will probably be taken away.

所以，如果你用你所拥有的东西来定义自己，那么构建身份就变得非常脆弱。

So if you define yourself by what you have, it's a very precarious way to construct an identity.

而如果你用你是谁，或者他所说的‘存在’取向——也就是我所说的Core Values——来定义自己，那就没人能夺走这些。

Whereas if you define yourself by who you are or what he called your being orientation, what I call your core values, no one can take those away from you.

我经常听到听众提出一个问题：如果我的核心价值观改变了怎么办？

And a common question that I get listeners might have is, well, what if your core values change?

这完全正常。

And that's totally normal.

但即便如此，正是你旧的核心价值观引导你走向了新的价值观。

But even then, it's your old core values that lead you to your new ones.

你的自我认知和身份认同会变得更加流动。

And your sense of self and your sense of identity, it becomes more fluid.

它几乎变成了一种随着时间不断演化的进程，而不是一种你始终试图保护或紧抓不放的静态事物。

It almost becomes like this evolving process over time versus this static thing that you're always trying to protect or hold on to.

书中另一个许多专业人士尤其觉得很有帮助的身份相关框架，就是多元化你的自我认知。

Another framework in the book that so many professionals in particular have found really helpful around identity is this notion of diversifying your sense of self.

在投资方面，我有限的理解是，除非遇到非常特殊的情况，通常都建议你至少在一定程度上分散投资组合，这是一个非常基础的原则。

So in investing, my limited understanding is that it's a pretty foundational rule is that barring very interesting circumstances, you generally wanna diversify your portfolio to at least some degree.

之所以如此，是因为如果你所有的资产都集中在某一类上，而该资产类别发生了意外情况，那你可就完了。

And the reason for that if all your assets are in one class and something unforeseen happens to that asset class, you're SOL.

你将陷入困境。

You're in for it.

你会面临大麻烦。

You're in big trouble.

然而，在我们的身份认同上，我们常常把整个自我都寄托在某一个类别上，比如投资者、父母、运动员或公司领导者。

Yet with our identities, so often, we throw our entire sense of self into one asset class, and that can be the investor, the parent, the athlete, the leader of a company.

如果生活中这一领域发生了变化，尤其是负面变化，可能会让人感觉是对整个自我认同的攻击。

And if there's a change in that area of our life, especially if it's a negative one, it can feel like an attack on our entire sense of self.

如果我们仅凭这种方式来定义自己，那就会陷入麻烦。

And if that's the only way that we define ourself, then we're in for trouble.

对吧？

Right?

所以，就像我们分散投资组合一样，我在书中提出，适度地多元化自己的身份认同其实是很好的，让生活中拥有多个意义来源，这样当你的某一身份受到打击时，可以依靠其他身份获得力量。

So much like we diversify our investment holdings, I argue in the book, it's actually good to diversify your sense of identity a little bit, to have multiple sources of meaning in one's life so that if you take a hit in one area of your identity, you can lean on the others for strength.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一个非常重要的观点。

This is such an important idea.

为了给听众们举几个真实的例子，在我书的后记中，我写到了一位了不起的投资者卡普，他曾经是一位极其成功的对冲基金经理。

And I I mean, to give you a couple of very listeners a couple of very real world examples, in the epilogue of my book, I write about this great investor, Karp, who had been this unbelievably successful hedge fund guy.

他最初为史蒂夫·科恩工作，取得了难以置信的优异业绩，后来自己创办了对冲基金，创下了有史以来最快的基金启动纪录。

He'd started out working for Steve Cohen and had just ridiculously good results and then ended up running his own hedge fund, had the fastest ever startup of any hedge fund.

但后来情况开始恶化。

And then things started to go badly.

我记得当时采访他时，他说：当这一切开始出问题时，我根本不知道该怎么办，因为我从未失败过。

And I remember interviewing him at the time and he said to me, I didn't really know what to do when this started to go wrong because I'd never failed at anything.

他的整个身份突然陷入了混乱。

And his whole identity suddenly was in turmoil.

我曾在播客中采访过杰森，他令人惊叹的地方在于，他成功地重新调整了整个人生，并以一种非凡的方式重塑了自我。

What's kind of amazing about Jason, who I've interviewed on the podcast, is he managed to reorient his whole life and reinvent himself in a kind of spectacular way.

但我也在自己的生活中亲眼见过这种崩塌。

But I've seen that kind of disintegration also actually in my own life.

我当时正在编辑《时代》杂志的欧洲、中东和非洲版，后来在金融危机期间被裁员了。

I was editing the European, Middle East and African editions of Time magazine, and then got laid off in the middle of the financial crisis.

突然间，你会想：等等，我之前每周工作七十、八十个小时，做着我非常擅长的事，现在这一切都没了。

And suddenly you're like, wait a second, I've been working seventy, eighty hours a week at this thing I'm really good at, and now it's gone.

曾经能采访总统和总理，现在却不禁问自己：那我到底是谁？

And instead of getting to interview presidents and prime ministers, you're like, Well, actually, so what am I now?

因此，你不得不接受这样的现实：我是一个父亲、一个丈夫、一个作家，还有其他各种身份——这种根基的瓦解真的非常艰难。

And so having actually to be like, Well, I'm a father and a husband and a writer and all these, it's really hard, that kind of dissolution of the ground on which you stand.

所以我认为，正如你所说的，找到一种流动的自我认知，并且多元化地从多个方面获取生命的意义，这真的非常重要。

So I think this idea of actually finding, a, having, as you put it, a fluid sense of self, but b, diversifying where you're gonna get your meaning from is really important.

我常用来比喻这一点的是，把身份想象成一栋房子。

A metaphor of it I like to use is to think of identity like a house.

如果你的房子只有一个房间，而这个房间着火或淹水了，那你就完蛋了。

So if you have a house and it only has one room in it and that one room catches fire or floods, you're screwed.

这会让人非常混乱。

It's gonna be very discombobulating.

你不得不彻底搬出这所房子。

You're gonna have to move out of the house altogether.

但如果你的房子有多个房间，其中一个房间着火或淹水了，你就可以躲到其他房间，等你处理完火灾或水患。

Whereas if you have a house and it has multiple rooms in it and one room catches fire or floods, you can go into the other rooms to seek refuge while you figure out the fire or flood.

如果我们把身份也这样看待，我们的身份之屋也可以有多个房间。

And if we think about our identities the same way, we can have multiple rooms in our identity house.

可以有投资者的房间、配偶的房间、父母的房间、社区成员的房间、运动员的房间、爱书者的房间、旅行者的房间，有无限种可能。

There can be the investor room, the spouse room, the parent room, the community member room, the athlete room, the book lover room, the travel room, infinite options.

拥有不止一个房间至关重要，因为迟早每个房间都会经历动荡。

It's just so important that we have more than one room because at some point or another, all the rooms are gonna experience turmoil.

但它们不太可能同时经历动荡，因此你总能在身份之屋的其他地方找到避难所。

But odds are they're not all gonna experience turmoil at the same time, so then you get to seek refuge in these other places within your identity house.

还有几点我要说得特别明确一下。

And a couple of things to be really explicit about.

我并不主张平衡。

I don't argue for balance.

我不是说每个房间的大小都应该一样。

I'm not saying that the room should be the same size.

我不是说你应该在每个房间里花同样多的时间。

I'm not saying that you should spend the same amount of time in every room.

我实际上认为，优先分配精力非常好，比如在这个人生阶段，我想全身心投入某些房间，并在这些房间投入不成比例的大量时间。

I actually think that it's very good to prioritize and to say these are the rooms that for this season of life I wanna be all in on and spend a disproportionate share in those rooms.

我只是不认为你应该让那些对你身份至关重要的房间因长期闲置而发霉，因为你永远不知道何时会需要它们。

I just don't think that you should let any rooms that are core to who you are get moldy because you never know when you're gonna need them.

关于这个隐喻，我要说的第二点是——我之前已经提到了这一点。

The second thing that I would say about this metaphor is that and I alluded to this.

当我采访那些职业生涯接近尾声或已经退休、事业成功且人生充满满足感的人时，他们不仅在事业上取得了成就，也在生活中获得了真正的满足，而且他们是用正确的方式做到的。

When I've interviewed people that are towards the end of their careers or that have retired and that have done really well and also have been highly fulfilled and satisfied with not only their career but their life, and they've done it the right way.

所以他们并不是那些服用兴奋剂的运动员。

So they're not athletes that have doped.

他们没有参与欺诈行为。

They haven't engaged in fraud.

他们在通往成功的道路上一直保持着良好的诚信。

They've really had good integrity on their path to success.

我发现，如果你聚焦于他们生命中的任何一个节点，看起来都会非常不平衡。

What I find is that if you zoom in at any one juncture of their life, they look very unbalanced.

但如果你拉远视角，纵观他们的一生，就会发现他们其实相当平衡。

But if you zoom out and look across their whole life, they look quite balanced.

因此，他们的人生有不同的阶段，各有侧重，而他们擅长的是从不让重要的领域变得荒废。

So they have different seasons for different emphases in their life, and what they're good at is they just never let the important rooms get moldy.

也许某个阶段你会全身心投入事业，但婚姻这个领域依然至关重要。

So maybe there's a season where you're going all in on your career, but that marriage room is still really important.

你不能让它变得荒废。

You can't let it get moldy.

这并不意味着你要一直强调它，但你得弄清楚维持这个房间所需的最低有效投入，这样当人生阶段转变时，它依然在那里等着你。

Doesn't mean that you have to emphasize it all the time, but you've gotta figure out what's the minimum effective dose to maintain that room so that when the season of my life shifts, it's still there for me.

我可没让它烂掉。

I haven't let it go to crap.

所以我怎么强调都不为过，一定要明确你身份之屋里的各个房间，清楚知道自己在重点经营哪些房间以及为什么，同时确保从不完全忽视其他重要的房间。

So I just can't emphasize enough how important it is to define the rooms in your identity house, to be really clear about what ones you're emphasizing and why, and just to make sure that you never completely ignore any other important ones.

我觉得这个观点非常重要，因为我看到很多伟大的投资者最终都离婚了，或者孩子根本不和他们说话。

I think this is such an important idea because I look at so many of the great investors who've ended up divorced or with kids who don't talk to them.

前几天我和一个朋友聊天，他从事一份压力极大、节奏极快的工作。

And I don't know, was talking to a friend of mine the other day, who's in a very high powered, very intense job.

他因为不想忽视孩子，结果自己的健康彻底垮了。

And he's just let his health just fall apart because he doesn't wanna neglect his kids.

他不想忽视配偶。

He doesn't wanna neglect his spouse.

他在工作中肩负着难以置信的责任和紧迫的截止日期。

And he's got unbelievable responsibility and deadlines at work.

所以他把自己的身体搞垮了。

So he's just wrecked his body.

所以这个观点真的深深触动了我。

So yeah, this idea really resonates for me pretty deeply.

我想把话题转向另一个非常重要的工具、实践，或者更准确地说，一种心态，你称之为关键的生活技能——悲剧性乐观的心态。

I wanted to move us to another really important tool or practice, or in this case, a mindset, which you describe as a crucial life skill, which is the mindset of tragic optimism.

你能谈谈这个源自维克多·弗兰克尔的想法吗？他那篇著名的文章《悲剧性乐观的案例》，我认为这与你看待生活和宇宙的方式非常独特地契合。

Can you talk about this idea that originally comes from Viktor Frankl and this famous essay of his, The Case for Tragic optimism, because I think it's very distinctive also to your way of viewing life and the universe.

我很高兴你问到了这个问题。

I'm so glad you asked.

弗兰克尔最著名的作品是《活出生命的意义》，他在集中营里时，大部分内容都是在脑海中构思出来的。

Frankl is most known for his book, Man's Search for Meaning, which he wrote most of it, he composed in in his mind while he was in a concentration camp during the Holocaust.

然后他幸存了下来。

And then he survives the Holocaust.

他的许多家人和朋友都被纳粹杀害，而他活下来后，出版了这部名为《活出生命的意义》的作品。

So many of his family members and friends are murdered by the Nazis, and he comes out and he publishes this work called Man's Search for Meaning.

其中前半部分是他的回忆录，或者说接近回忆录，而后半部分他发展出了存在主义心理治疗。

The first half of which is his memoir, I'd say, or close to memoir, and then the second half, he really develops what becomes existential psychotherapy.

这是一部开创性著作，任何大学心理学专业的学生都读过这本书。

So it's this groundbreaking work, and any psychology major in in university has read this book.

但后来他又发表了一篇不太为人所知的论文，名为《悲剧性乐观主义的主张》。

But then he puts out this much lesser known essay later on called the case for tragic optimism.

在这篇文章中，弗兰克尔认为，作为人类，就意味着过着一种充满悲剧的生活。

And in it, Frankl argues that to be a human is to live a very tragic life.

他说，这是无法回避的。

And he says that there's no way around this.

这是不可避免的。

It's inevitable.

即使是最伟大的人生，也包含着悲剧。

Even the greatest human life has tragedy.

他定义了每个人都会面临的三种悲剧。

And he defines these three tragedies that everyone faces.

第一种是身体上的痛苦，因为我们是由血肉和骨骼构成的。

The first is physical pain because we're made of flesh and bone.

没有人能活着离开这个世界而不经历身体上的痛苦。

Nobody gets out of life without experiencing physical pain.

第二种是心碎与失望，这是因为我们大脑中发达的前额叶皮层让我们能够制定出种种美好的计划。

The second is heartbreak and disappointment, and that is because we have these big prefrontal cortices in our brains that allow us to make all these wonderful plans.

但有时这些计划无法实现，于是我们感到沮丧。

And sometimes the plans don't work out, and we're frustrated.

第三种悲剧是，据我们所知，我们是唯一一种深刻意识到自身死亡的物种——我们知道我们终将死去，我们所爱的人也终将死去。

And then the third tragedy is that as far as we know, we're the only species that's keenly aware of our own mortality so that we are going to die and and everyone we love is gonna die.

弗兰克尔说，我们没有必要掩耳盗铃或否认这些事实。

And Frankl says there's no reason to bury our head in the sand or to deny these.

我们必须接受，这些正是身为人类所固有的悲剧。

We have to accept that these are the tragedies inherent to being a human being.

然而，一个成熟成年人的使命，正是理解这些悲剧，并保持乐观与希望——不是无视这些悲剧，而是几乎因为它们而更加坚定。

And yet and yet, the work of a mature adult is to understand these tragedies and to maintain optimism and hope, not in spite of those tragedies, but almost because of them.

因为我们知道人生注定充满悲剧，所以我们有责任对自己保持乐观与希望，并找到快乐。

Because we know that life is gonna be full of tragedy, we have a responsibility to ourselves to maintain optimism and hope and to find joy too.

而且这并不非此即彼。

And it doesn't have to be this or that.

不必非得快乐或悲伤、悲剧或乐观。

Doesn't have to be happy or sad, tragedy or optimism.

它可以是悲剧性的乐观。

It can be tragic optimism.

我们可以在接受自己和世界中的苦难的同时，依然为自己和世界保持希望。

We can accept the suffering in ourselves and in the world while at the same time maintaining hope for ourselves and hope for the world.

我只是觉得，尽管弗兰克尔早在20世纪70年代就提出了这一观点，但如今它却比以往任何时候都更具预见性和现实意义。

And I just think that though Frankl first wrote about this in the nineteen seventies, it could not be more prescient and more timely now.

我经常看到这种情况。

I see it all the time.

你只要登录互联网的任何一部分，不久就会遇到这两种极端。

You log on to any part of the Internet, and it's not long before you have these two extremes.

我将其中一个极端称为有毒的积极乐观或波莉安娜极端，认为一切都很好。

One extreme I'm gonna call the toxic positivity or the Pollyanna extreme, which is everything's great.

别打扰我。

Don't bother me.

你知道，我已经想明白了。

You know, I figured it out.

我不想听你的烦恼。

I don't wanna hear about your problems.

生活很好。

Life is good.

你凭什么抱怨？

Why are you possibly complaining?

从来没有比现在更好的时代做一个人。

There's never been a better time to be a human.

而另一个极端是我所谓的虚无主义或绝望极端，认为一切都破败不堪，社会正在瓦解，所有这些制度和结构都如此落后，我这样一个渺小的个体又能做什么？

And the other extreme is what I'm gonna call the nihilism or despair extreme, which says that everything is broken, society's unraveling, all these systems and structures are so backwards that what can me little individual do?

然后你就陷入绝望和虚无主义。

And then you just fall into despair and nihilism.

表面上看，这两种态度是完全对立的。

On its face, these are polar opposites.

但仔细想想，它们实际上有一个共同点，那就是在某种程度上，它们都很容易成为你的思维模式，因为它们让你免于采取任何行动的责任。

But when you think about it, they actually have one thing in common, which is, in a way, they're kind of easy to adopt as mindsets because they absolve you of needing to do anything.

所以，如果一切总是很好，你也不想听任何世界上的问题，那么你就没什么需要去努力的了。

So if everything is great always and you don't wanna hear about any of the world's problems, well, then there's nothing to work on.

没什么需要改善的。

There's nothing to make better.

如果一切都很糟糕、很破碎、结构上已经彻底崩坏，你做的任何事都毫无意义，那你还为什么要行动呢？

If everything is so terrible and so broken and so structurally broken that anything you do is pointless, well, then why would you act?

所以，无论是有毒的积极心态，还是虚无主义或绝望，它们都让你免除了采取行动的责任。

So both toxic positivity and nihilism or despair, they absolve you of any responsibility to take action.

而弗兰克尔会说，我也认为，我们的责任恰恰是不要陷入这些极端之中，尽管这些极端极具诱惑力，我们要坚守中间立场，真正拥抱悲剧性乐观，认识到这个世界确实存在大量问题，需要大量改进，也确实有很多事情让人感到无比沉重。

And what Frankl would say and what I argue is that it is our job, and they're very seductive, these extremes, but it is our job not to fall into one of those extremes and to hold our ground in the middle and really embrace tragic optimism to realize that there is a lot that's broken about the world, and there is a lot that needs improvement, and there is a lot that feels so overwhelming.

如果我们能保持希望，我们就确实拥有一定的能动性，让自己的生活变得更好，也让世界变得更好。

And if we can maintain hope, we do have some agency to make our lives better and to make the world better.

因此，你常常会看到极端的观点。

And so often you see extremes.

你知道，靠自己的努力爬起来。

You know, pull yourself up by the bootstraps.

一切都归于个人责任， versus 一切取决于你出生在哪个邮政编码地区。

It's all personal responsibility versus everything structural, and all that matters is what ZIP code you're born into.

任何一个理性的人都会告诉你，这两者都很重要。

And any reasonable person will tell you it's both of those things matter.

个人责任和行为非常重要，而你出生在哪个邮政编码地区也同样重要。

Both accountability and personal responsibility and individual behavior is very important, and what ZIP code you're born into is very important.

我只是觉得，尤其是在互联网上，缺乏这种细微差别，极端化现象非常严重，但这种趋势已经渗透到西方世界的大部分讨论中，让人感觉你必须在这些极端之间二选一，而现实其实是混乱的，存在于两者之间。

And I just think that there's such a lack of nuance and extreme in especially on the Internet, but really it's pervaded so much of the discourse in the Western world where it feels like you have to choose into these extremes when reality is messy and somewhere in the middle.

我认为，悲剧性乐观是一个绝佳的概念，它让我们拥抱这种混乱，做一个现实主义者，却不陷入绝望。

And I think tragic optimism is just such a wonderful concept for embracing that messiness and for being a realist without falling into despair.

你在《变革的主人》中引用了一句很美的话，这句话来自布鲁斯·斯普林斯廷71岁时接受《大西洋》杂志的采访，他说，智慧的核心在于学会接受世界本来的样子，同时不放弃改变世界的信念。

There's a beautiful line that you quote in The Master of Change that's from an interview that Bruce Springsteen did when he was 71 with The Atlantic, where he talked about the heart of wisdom amounting to learning, quote, to accept the world on its terms without giving up the belief that you can change the world.

这是一种成功的成年，是你思维和灵魂成熟的过程，让你在认清生命的局限的同时，依然不放弃它的可能性。

That's a successful adulthood, the maturation of your thought process and very soul to the point where you understand the limits of life without giving up on its possibilities.

这是一个极好的洞见。

It's a wonderful insight.

我记得多年前，当我住在伦敦时，曾去温布利球场观看斯普林斯廷的演唱会。

I remember actually years ago when I was living in London going to see Springsteen in a concert, Wembley Stadium.

他出场了那么多次，我的意思是，返场了那么多轮。

He came on so many times, I mean, for so many encores.

我想那场演出持续了将近四个小时。

I think it must have lasted the best part of four hours.

对我来说，最精彩的时刻是，我想那是‘推土机’巡演期间。

And the highlight for me was, I guess it was the wrecking ball tour.

有一个瞬间，你看到这位年迈的歌手，身体已经衰弱，嗓音也沙哑，却依然在唱：‘给我你最棒的一击。’

And there was this moment where you see this aging guy with this broken body and this raspy voice basically singing, give me your best shot.

你只是感受到一种顽强的气质，这个男人接受了自己童年悲惨、身体衰败、嗓音受损、饱受痛苦的事实。

You just had this defiant sense of this guy who accepted the fact that he had a lousy childhood, that his body was breaking down, that his voice was breaking down, that he was in pain.

但令人振奋的是，尽管痛苦，他依然不断重返舞台。

But there was something kind of triumphant and exultant about the fact that he just kept coming back amid the pain.

所以我认为，他实际上体现了悲剧性乐观的精神。

So I think he kind of embodies that spirit actually of tragic optimism.

是的，完全正确。

Oh, 100%.

用简单的话来说，如果你自己变得支离破碎，就无法修复一个破碎的世界。

Another way to think about it in simple terms is, like, you can't fix a broken world if you become a broken person.

在我看来，向一个破碎的世界屈服，一方面没什么帮助，另一方面也谈不上美好的人生。

And to resign yourself to a broken world, in my opinion, is just, one, it's not very helpful, and two, it doesn't make for a great existence.

如果你任由这种心态恶化，它会很快演变成抑郁。

If And you let that spiral, it can very quickly become depression.

所以我认为，悲剧性乐观是一种在两种极端之间生活的态度——接受现实，但不陷入崩溃。

So I think that tragic optimism is, again, it's a way to live in between these extremes and to accept reality without spiraling.

关于布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀的另一件有趣的事是，现在有一位新的创作型歌手，已经逐渐成为流行明星。

Another thing on Bruce Springsteen that that's really interesting is so there's a new singer songwriter and really kinda has become a pop star.

他叫扎克·布莱恩特。

His name is Zach Bryant.

我觉得他大概只有25岁，可能26岁左右。

I I think he's only 25, maybe 26 years old.

我觉得他的音乐很有吸引力，但并不出色。

And I think his music's very catchy, but it's not great.

我的意思是，我不确定。

Like, I don't know.

也许是我有点跟不上时代了。

And maybe I'm dating myself.

他就是那种没经历过多少人生起伏的人，诸如此类吧。

He's just kinda like he hasn't lived that much, whatever.

但他却能售罄体育馆，Spotify上的下载量高达数百万。

But he's selling out arenas, millions of downloads on Spotify.

很容易看到像布鲁斯·斯普林斯廷这样的人会变得愤世嫉俗，说我不太了解这个家伙。

And it'd be very easy to see someone like Bruce Springsteen be a curmudgeon and kinda say, I don't know about this guy.

但布鲁斯·斯普林斯廷却和他合作了。

But Bruce Springsteen just did a collaboration with him.

斯普林斯廷那时多大年纪？

It aged how old Springsteen?

我73岁，或者74岁左右。

I was 73, 74 maybe.

我觉得，这也体现了一种悲天悯人的乐观态度——你本可以坐在那里抱怨音乐产业、抱怨一切都转向了流媒体、抱怨你必须长得好看、要在TikTok上表现优异才能走红。

And I think, like, that also embodies this kind of tragic optimism where you could sit there and complain about how the music industry, how everything's gone to streaming, and how you have to look a certain way and be good on TikTok to be popular.

对吧？

Right?

扎克·布莱恩最初是通过发布自己弹奏的一分钟短视频起步的。

Zach Bryan got started by posting all these one minute videos of him playing.

要变得愤世嫉俗、完全排斥这种做法实在太容易了，但斯普林斯廷却选择和他合作。

And it'd be so easy to fall into just, like, being grumpy and shunning that, but instead, Springsteen goes and does a collab with him.

我觉得，这真的太棒了。

And I think, like, that's really cool.

我比74岁年轻多了，我就是以他为榜样。

And and I'm much younger than 74, and and I I look to that.

我希望当我74岁的时候，也能拥有像布鲁斯·斯普林斯廷那样开放的心胸和思维。

And I hope that when I'm 74, I have that kind of open heart and open mind that Bruce Springsteen has.

比尔·沃尔顿最近去世了。

Bill Walton recently passed away.

他真是践行悲剧性乐观主义的典范。

What an example of someone that lived with tragic optimism.

这些榜样就在我们身边，他们往往是我们钦佩的人，但要在生活中始终保持这样的态度却非常困难。

So these examples are out there, and they tend to be people that we all admire, yet it's very hard to go through life with that sort of attitude.

你提到的另一个非常重要的做法，我想稍微展开说一下，就是为什么在混乱时期依靠日常惯例和仪式能带来稳定感。

Another practice that you talk about that's very important that I wanna break down a little bit is you talk about why it's so helpful to lean on routines and rituals to provide stability during times of disorder.

你能谈谈在面对混乱时，惯例的重要性吗？

Can you talk a little bit about the importance of routines when we're dealing with chaos?

因为我在书中写过，有一章是关于高效能习惯的。

Because I write in my book, there's a chapter on habits of high performance.

最成功的投资者有一个非常显著的特点，那就是他们对自己的习惯和日常安排极为执着。

One of the things that's very distinctive about the most successful investors is they're obsessed with their habits, their routines.

书中有一个地方，我引用了我的朋友肯·舒本斯坦，他是一位非常成功的投资者，后来成为了一名神经学家。

There's a point in the book where I quote a friend of mine, Ken Schubenstein, who was a very successful investor who then became a neurologist.

他谈到，在混乱时期，他始终回归的四个习惯——运动、睡眠、健康饮食和冥想。

And he talks about how basically the four habits he keeps coming back to in times of chaos, basically exercise, sleep, good nutrition, and meditation.

因为这些习惯我们都知道对认知健康和认知功能非常有益。

Because it's like those are the four that we know are great for cognitive health and cognitive function.

你对 routines 和 rituals 这个领域思考得非常深入。

You've thought very deeply about this whole area of routines and rituals.

请为我们详细讲讲，我们该如何看待日常习惯？应该开始采纳哪些最佳习惯？同时，你也对当前从胡伯曼到彼得·阿蒂亚等人推崇的优化运动持相当轻视的态度，谈谈你的理念。

Talk us through this, how we should think about routines, what are the best routines that we should start to adopt, and also your philosophy of being quite dismissive of the movement towards optimization, which we're seeing with everyone from Huberman to Peter Attia.

你可能会太客气而不点名，那我就替你点名了。

And you're gonna be too polite to name names, so I'm naming them for you.

好的。

Alright.

这是一个复杂而很好的问题。

This is a loaded question and a good question.

首先，我很欣赏你朋友提出的那些类别。

So first off, I love your friends for categories.

我唯一想补充的是，我相信他或她也会同意我的观点，那就是社群的重要性。

The only one that I would consider adding, and and my guess is he or she would agree with me, is the importance of community.

是的。

Yeah.

把与你重要的人相聚，无论是家人、同事还是朋友，作为你日常安排的基石。

In making gathering with people that matter to you, whether that's your family, colleagues, friends, a cornerstone of your routines.

好的。

Alright.

那么，首先，为什么日常安排如此重要？

So square one, why are routines important?

稍微讲点神经科学。

Little bit of neuroscience.

我们的大脑具有预测性。

Our brains are predictive.

它们总是在试图预测接下来会发生什么，而且这有充分的理由。

They are always trying to predict what's gonna happen next, and for very good reason.

世界上有太多刺激信息。

There's so much stimulus in the world.

如果我们的大脑不能提前想一步或两步，

Our brains couldn't think a step or two ahead.

我们就根本无法度过一天。

We would never make our way through the day.

我的意思是，想象一下我们正在交谈，我预测你会倾听然后回应。

I mean, imagine if we're having this conversation and I'm predicting that you're gonna listen and then respond.

但如果我的大脑无法做到这一点，不确定你是否会挂断电话，不确定会不会有小行星撞穿窗户，不确定你是否会保存这次采访，那这一切根本不可能实现。

But if my brain couldn't do that and my brain wasn't sure if you were gonna hang up the call, if there was gonna be an asteroid through the window, if you were gonna save it, the interview is going tear like, it would never work.

所以即使我们没有意识到，我们的大脑也在预测接下来会发生什么。

So even when we don't realize it, our brains are making predictions about what's gonna happen next.

而在变化、不确定性和混乱时期，预测接下来会发生什么变得非常困难。

And in times of change, in uncertainty, in chaos, it becomes very hard to predict what's gonna happen next.

习惯的作用在于，它让我们能够划定生活中的一两个或三个领域——无论你的习惯包含多少组成部分——在这些领域里我们可以做出预测。

What a routine allows us to do is allows us to carve out this one or two or three areas of our life, however many components we have of our routine, where we can make a prediction.

我每天早上都会去跑步。

I'm gonna go for a run-in the morning.

我每天下午两点都会泡一杯咖啡。

I'm gonna make my afternoon coffee at two.

我每天晚上都会坐下来祈祷、冥想、阅读或写日记。

I'm gonna sit down and pray or meditate or read or journal in the evening.

这些事情非常有可能实现，而当我们的大脑做出预测并看到它成真时，会在神经化学层面感到极大的满足。

That has a very high likelihood of coming true, And that is so satisfying for our brain at a neurochemical level to make a prediction and to have it come true.

这是我们生活中少数能够掌控的部分。

It's a part of our life that we have some control over.

所以，这就是习惯最重要的价值。

So that is the number one important value of a routine.

这意味着，习惯的具体内容并不重要，重要的是我们拥有它们。

Now what that means is what the routines are don't matter as much as the fact that we have them.

对吧？

Right?

对你来说，可能是听AC/DC的音乐。

For you, it might be listening to ACDC.

对我而言，可能是冥想佛陀教义的核心。

For me, it might be meditating to the heart of the Buddha's teaching.

这并不重要。

Doesn't matter.

只要你有这个行为，并且在固定的时间做，让你的大脑将它与生活中的掌控感和可预测性联系起来，那就很好。

As long as you have that thing and you do it at the same time and your brain starts to associate that thing with a sense of control and predictability in your life, then it's good.

它有效。

It works.

有一些注意事项，我会非常贴近你那位成为神经学家的朋友所说的话。

There are a few caveats, and I'm gonna go very closely to what your friend that became the neurologist said.

根据数十年的科学研究，我们确实知道，有一些相对普遍的要素，可以成为对几乎所有尝试或应用它们的人都有帮助的日常习惯。

We do know based on decades of science that there are a few somewhat universal elements that can become routines that are helpful for just about everybody that tries or applies them.

首先也是最重要的是锻炼。

And first and foremost, exercise.

身体活动是改善身体健康、心理健康和认知健康最首要的可改变行为。

Physical activity is the number one modifiable behavior for both physical health, mental health, and cognitive health.

第二是社交，某种形式的社会生活，一种仪式化的社交聚会。

Number two would be community, some sort of social life, the social gathering that's ritualized.

这可以是家庭晚餐。

Again, that can be a family dinner.

也可以是去教堂或犹太会堂。

That can be going to church or synagogue.

或者每月和朋友聚在一起打扑克。

That can be getting together with friends to play poker once a month.

重要的是，无论是什么活动，只要是你能期待的、定期发生的、涉及他人的事情就行。

Doesn't matter what it is, but something that you can look forward to that happens on a regular interval that involves other people.

我们人类是在部落中进化的。

Our species evolved in tribes.

我们是一种非常社交的物种。

We're a very social species.

正是这一点让我们能够抵御狮子等捕食者，因为一群人类的智慧胜过一只狮子、一群狮子，或者一群狼，我该说是一群狮子。

That's what allowed us to survive predators like lions is that a bunch of humans are smarter than one lion or a tribe of lions or a pack of lions, I should say.

因此，在面对挑战时，向社群靠拢深深植根于我们的本能之中。

So it's very much in our hardwiring during times of challenge to gravitate towards community.

睡眠非常重要。

Sleep is really important.

然而，关于睡眠，市面上充斥着大量无稽之谈。

However, there's a lot of nonsense out there about sleep.

如果你服用这些补充剂，追踪你的心率变异性，网上有个叫布莱恩·约翰逊的人，甚至在追踪自己睡眠时勃起的强度，以此作为健康指标。

So if you take these supplements, if you track your heart rate variability, there's some guy out there that's now tracking the strength of his erections during his sleep is a sign of his His name is Brian Johnson.

我很乐意提到他的名字，因为我觉得他简直疯了。

I'm happy naming his name because I think he's out of, like, insane.

但很多人喜欢他，你也可以不同意。

But a lot of people like him, and you can disagree.

然而，研究表明，我们越担心睡眠，就越难入睡。

However, the research shows that the more that we worry about sleep, the harder it is to sleep.

所以，如果你把睡眠变成一件需要追求卓越的事情，那么本应是你一天中最放松、最具恢复性的部分——睡眠，现在却变成了一项需要赢取的目标或一个需要追逐的指标。

So if you turn sleep into something to excel at, then what is supposed to be the most restful, restorative part of your day sleeping now becomes something to win at or a metric to chase.

当然，这样会更难入睡。

Well, of course, it's gonna be harder to sleep.

所以我认为，睡眠是日常规律体力活动的副产品，是确保你不感到孤独的结果，因为我们知道，感到孤立和孤独的人睡眠质量很差。

So I think that sleep is the byproduct of a regular physical activity throughout your day, of making sure that you're not lonely because we know that people who feel isolated and lonely, they don't sleep well.

此外，我认为营养也非常重要。

And then I would add nutrition is really important.

但市面上有各种各样的饮食法，其实关键只是避免摄入高度加工的食物。

But there, there's all these different diets, and it's really just about avoiding highly processed foods.

我想再回过头来谈一下，因为我知道你们的观众知识水平很高。

I I wanna loop back because I know you have a very heavy intellectual audience.

人们可能会说，布拉德到底在讲什么？

People might say, like, what's Brad talking about?

社交孤立和睡眠。

Social isolation and sleep.

对吧？

Right?

因为我并没有说，你需要补充镁来改善睡眠。

Because I didn't say, like, you need to take your magnesium to sleep better.

我说的是，如果你感到孤独，这可能是导致睡眠不佳的原因。

I said, if you're feeling lonely, that could be driving poor sleep.

这其中的原因非常有趣，因为我们的祖先曾生活在部落中。

And the reason for this is fascinating because, again, we evolved in tribes.

在人类早期历史中，当我们从外形更接近大猩猩或猿类的毛茸茸灵长类动物，逐渐演变成如今我们所认知的人类时，如果你独自一人，就永远无法安心入睡，因为你可能被山狮或其他捕食者袭击。

So early early on in our species history, right when we're turning from these hairy primates that look closer to a gorilla or an ape to what we now view as a human, if you are alone, you can never fall asleep because you could be picked off by a mountain lion or by a predator.

对吧？

Right?

literally，如果你脱离了部落，在草原上睡着了，你就会死。

Literally, if you lost the tribe and fell asleep on the savannah, you're dead.

你根本活不到足以传递基因的年龄。

You wouldn't survive long enough to pass on your DNA.

但如果你身处部落中，人多势众，你就能安心休息和睡觉，因为你知道自己并不孤单和孤立。

But if you were in a tribe and you had strength in numbers, well, then you could rest and you could sleep because you knew that you weren't alone and isolated.

这种机制一直延续到了今天。

And that still carries forth to today.

社会孤立对健康造成如此严重危害的首要原因，是它会升高血压并导致睡眠质量下降。

The number one reason that social isolation is so detrimental to our health is because it raises our blood pressure and causes poor sleep.

这难道不令人着迷吗？

Isn't that fascinating?

但这完全说得通。

But it makes total sense.

因为如果你独自一人，就会感到焦虑，总是处于警觉状态。

Because if you're alone, you're anxious, and you always are on guard.

你总是提防着，所以睡不好。

You're always on the lookout so you don't sleep well.

所以对我来说，最重要的两点是运动和社群，然后我会把营养放在第三位。

So for me, the big two are movement and community, and then I would put nutrition.

而且，是的，我认为围绕日常习惯的其他很多东西都非常个性化。

And, yeah, I think a lot of the other stuff around routine is very highly individualized.

我认为，任何告诉你有一个特定的补品、一个特定的呼吸练习，或一种特定的方法能帮助你建立提升表现的日常习惯的人，我几乎敢拿全部家当打赌，他们就是在推销那个东西。

And I think anyone that tells you that there's this one supplement or this one breathing exercise or this one way to do something to have a routine that helps performance, I'd almost bet my bottom dollar that they're selling that one thing.

让我们短暂休息一下，听听今天赞助商的信息。

Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

威廉，不是你的错觉。

William No, it's not your imagination.

风险和监管都在上升，客户现在要求提供安全证明才能开展业务。

Risk and regulation are ramping up and customers now expect proof of security just to do business.

这就是为什么Vanta是一个变革者。

That's why Vanta is a game changer.

Vanta自动化您的合规流程，将合规、风险和客户信任整合在一个AI驱动的平台上。

Vanta automates your compliance process and brings compliance, risk, and customer trust together on one AI powered platform.

无论您是在为SOC 2做准备，还是在运行企业GRC项目，Vanta都能确保您的安全并推动交易进展。

So whether you're prepping for a SOC two or running an enterprise GRC program, Vanta keeps you secure and keeps your deals moving.

与其追逐电子表格和截图，Vanta为您提供跨越35多种隐私框架的持续自动化。

Instead of chasing spreadsheets and screenshots, Vanta gives you continuous automation across more than 35 and privacy frameworks.

像Ramp和Ryder这样的公司使用Vanta后，审计时间减少了82%。

Companies like Ramp and Ryder spend 82% less time on audits with Vanta.

这不仅仅是更快的合规，更是更多用于增长的时间。

That's not just faster compliance, it's more time for growth.

如果我现在正在运营一家初创公司或扩大团队，这正是我想要部署的平台类型。

If I were running a startup or scaling a team today, this is exactly the type of platform I'd want in place.

立即前往vanta.com/billionaires开始使用。

Get started at vanta.com/billionaires.

那就是 vanta.com/billionaires。

That's vanta.com/billionaires.

你是否曾想探索在线交易的世界，却一直不敢尝试？

Ever wanted to explore the world of online trading, but haven't dared try?

期货市场如今比以往任何时候都更活跃，而标普五百期货正是理想的入门之选。

The futures market is more active now than ever before and plus five hundred futures is the perfect place to start.

标普五百期货为您提供广泛的投资工具。

Plus five hundred gives you access to a wide range of instruments.

包括标普500、纳斯达克、比特币、天然气等等。

The S and P five hundred, NASDAQ, Bitcoin, gas, and much more.

探索股票指数、能源、金属、外汇、加密货币及其他更多品种。

Explore equity indices, energy, metals, Forex, crypto, and beyond.

通过简单直观的平台，您可以随时随地通过手机进行交易。

With a simple and intuitive platform, you can trade from anywhere, right from your phone.

仅需最低100美元入金，即可体验您一直期待的快速便捷的期货交易。

Deposit with a minimum of $100 and experience the fast accessible futures trading you've been waiting for.

看到交易机会了吗？

See a trading opportunity?

一旦您的账户开通，您只需两步点击即可进行交易。

You'll be able to trade it in just two clicks once your account is open.

不确定自己是否准备好了？

Not sure if you're ready?

没问题。

Not a problem.

Plus500为您提供无限时长的免费模拟账户，内含图表和分析工具，供您练习使用。

Plus500 gives you an unlimited risk free demo account with charts and analytic tools for you to practice on.

凭借超过二十年的经验，Plus500是您进入市场的门户。

With over twenty years of experience, Plus500 is your gateway to the markets.

访问 plus500.com 了解更多信息。

Visit plus500.com to learn more.

期货交易存在亏损风险，并非适合所有人。

Trading in futures involves risk of loss and is not suitable for everyone.

并非所有申请人都能通过审核。

Not all applicants will qualify.

Plus500，交易更胜一筹。

Plus 500, it's trading with a plus.

亿万富翁投资者通常不会把资金存放在高收益储蓄账户中。

Bill Billion dollar investors don't typically park their cash in high yield savings accounts.

相反，他们常常采用机构投资者常用的被动收入策略之一——私人信贷。

Instead, they often use one of the premier passive income strategies for institutional investors, private credit.

如今，得益于Fundrise收入基金，这一被动收入策略已向所有规模的投资者开放，该基金已投入超过6亿美元，分配收益率为7.97%。

Now the same passive income strategy is available to investors of all sizes, thanks to the Fundrise Income Fund, which has more than $600,000,000 invested and a 7.97% distribution rate.

随着传统储蓄利率下降，私人信贷在近几年成长为万亿美元级别的资产类别也就不足为奇了。

With traditional savings yields falling, it's no wonder private credit has grown to be a trillion dollar asset class in the last few years.

立即访问 fundrise.com/wsb，只需几分钟即可投资Fundrise收入基金。

Visit fundrise.com/wsb to invest in the Fundrise Income Fund in just minutes.

该基金2025年的总回报率为8%，自成立以来的平均年总回报率为7.8%。

The fund's total return in 2025 was 8% and the average annual total return since inception is 7.8%.

过往表现并不能保证未来结果，当前分配率为2025年1月20日12:30的数据。

Past performance does not guarantee future results, current distribution rate as of twelvethirty onetwenty twenty five.

投资前请仔细阅读投资材料，包括投资目标、风险、费用和开支。

Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses.

更多信息可参阅Fundrise Income Fund的招募说明书，网址为fundrise.com/income。

This and other information can be found in the income funds prospectus at fundrise.com/income.

这是一则付费广告。

This is a paid advertisement.

好的。

Alright.

我们回到节目。

Back to the show.

我在书中写过关于简约的内容，真正的简约其实是一种高深的智慧——当你对一个主题理解得足够深刻时，就能将其简化并提炼出本质。

I wrote a length in my book about simplicity and the simplicity, really the sophistication that goes when you're basically so you understand a topic so deeply that you can simplify and distill it down to its essence.

我之前曾作为一名代笔作家和编辑，参与过一本关于长寿等相关主题的书籍，那本书几年前曾是畅销榜第一名。

I actually, I had done a lot of work as a ghostwriter and editor on a book about longevity and the like, which had been a number one bestseller a few years ago.

我不是什么健康典范，但我为此做了大量报道。

Not that I'm a paragon of good health or anything, but I've done a lot of reporting on this.

其中让我深深共鸣的一点，我在书的脚注中引用过，是生活方式医学之父迪恩·奥尼什跟我谈的，他通过四十年的研究，总结出所有能逆转心脏病、糖尿病等疾病的有效方法。

And one of the things that really deeply resonated for me that I quoted in a footnote of my book was something where Dean Ornish, the father of lifestyle medicine, was talking to me about what he'd figured out from forty years of research into everything that worked to reverse heart disease and diabetes and all of these things.

他说，其实我可以用八个字概括。

And he said, Really, I can sum it up in eight words.

他说：吃得好，多运动，少压力，多爱。

He said, Eat well, move more, stress less, love more.

而且真的如果

And really if

你——我太喜欢这句话了。

you- I love that.

是的，这句话太棒了。

Yeah, it's an amazing sentence.

如果你深入剖析每一点，'吃得好'其实更多是指多吃绿色食物、多吃蔬菜之类的。

If you unpack each of those things, really it's eat well is more about having more green stuff, more vegetables and the like.

多运动，正如你在很多文章中提到的，每天只要坚持运动三十到四十五分钟，方式并不重要。

Move more, as you say, in a lot of your writing, you talk about just moving thirty to forty five minutes a day in any way that you'll do consistently doesn't really matter that much.

减少压力，无论是呼吸技巧还是冥想；以及多爱，也就是社群的重要性。

Stress less, so anything from breathing techniques to meditation, and love more, which is the importance of community.

我觉得这真是一个绝佳的例子，将如此复杂的话题简化为本质且真实的要点。

And so I just thought that was a beautiful example of the reduction of this incredibly complex subject to something that was essential and true.

你在网站、博客和播客中写过、谈论过很多关于人们为了让我们相信复杂性而做的荒谬事情。

You've written a lot on your website and on your blog and talked about on your podcast about the bizarre things that people do to sell us on great complexity.

这很复杂，因为我们的受众都是高绩效者。

It's complicated because our audience, these are high performers.

我们希望在最高水平上表现。

We want to perform at the top level.

但你指出，像乔科·威尔宁和休伯曼这样的人，建议我们通过反复进行热桑拿、冷浴、再热桑拿、再冷浴来进行一次彻底的重置。

But you point out that all of these things like Jocko Willink and Huberman sort of saying we should do this factory reset by having hot saunas and then cold, and then hot saunas again and cold and doing it again and again.

或者休伯曼谈论获取大量晨光、推销AG1、测量我们的最大摄氧量，就像彼得·阿蒂亚会说的那样，或者佩戴Oura戒指、WHOOP手环、连续血糖监测仪、防蓝光眼镜等等。

Or Huberman talking about getting lots of morning sunlight or selling AG1 and measuring our VO2 max, as Peter Attia would talk about, or wearing the Oura Ring or the WHOOP strap or a continuous glucose monitor or light blocking glasses or whatever.

这很有趣，而且也很容易销售。

It's interesting and it's saleable.

我认为，如果你是一个顶尖的高绩效者，也许这些方法中有一些是有价值的。

And I think if you're an incredible top performer, maybe some of this stuff is valuable.

但我认为这让我有点不确定。

But I think it's so I don't know.

我在写那本书的调研期间买了很多这些东西，但现在一样都不用了。

I bought a lot of these things while I was reporting that book, and I don't use any of them anymore.

我认为我唯一还在用的东西，是一个非常奇怪的、绑在手臂上的小装置。

The only thing I think I continued to use was this really weird gadget that you strap onto your arm.

那东西叫什么来着？

What was it called?

它叫Apollo Neuro，会振动。

It's called an Apollo Neuro that vibrates.

它是由匹兹堡大学开发的，最初是为创伤后应激障碍患者设计的。

And it was developed, I think, at the University of Pittsburgh for people with post traumatic stress disorder.

不知为何，我觉得它特别令人放松。

And for some reason I find it unbelievably soothing.

当它失踪了好几个月，或者那段时间无法使用时，我记得重新找到它、戴上它时，几乎要哭出来。

And when I lost it for several months or it didn't work for several months, I remember finding it again and putting it on and just, I almost burst out crying.

能重新戴上它，我高兴极了。

Was so happy that I had it back on.

就像重新找到了一位老朋友。

Was like finding an old friend again.

所以，我曾经用过的那些东西，现在冰箱里堆着一大堆AG1，却从未动过。

So if all of those things that I used I have masses of AG1 sitting in my fridge untouched.

我不确定。

I don't know.

我的光环戒指也放在床边，从未使用。

My aura ring sitting beside the bed unused.

我并不是想冒犯任何人，但我认为这触及了一个非常重要的问题。

And I I don't mean to insult anyone, but I think this gets at something really important.

你对刚才我说的话有什么想法吗？

Do you have any thoughts about what I just said?

有。

I do.

这时间可真巧。

So it's funny timing.

我刚刚在《纽约时报》周日版上发表了一篇关于这个话题的评论文章。

I just had an op ed published in the New York Times, the Sunday Times on this very topic.

我打算引用其中一段。

And I'm gonna quote from it.

我说，在过去十年里，我研究了卓越，并在过程中与世界上一些最顶尖的运动员合作过。

I say that over the last decade, I've studied excellence, and I've worked with some of the world's best performers in the process.

这确实是事实。

And this is true.

我曾与铁人三项世界冠军、NBA王朝球队合作，真正接触过最顶尖的顶尖人才。

I've worked with Ironman world champion, NBA dynasty teams, really the best of the best when it comes to performance.

真正让职业运动员或奥运选手卓越的原因，并不是早上五点起床去冷水浴、凝视太阳。

And what makes a professional athlete or an Olympian great, it's not waking up at 5AM to cold plunge and gaze at the sun.

我的意思是，他们没人这么做。

I mean, none of them do it.

我从未与任何顶尖运动员合作过，他们还会担心早晨在低角度阳光下进行冷水浴。

I've never worked with an elite performer that's worried about a morning cold plunge in low angle sunlight.

一个都没有。

Not one.

但他们共同的特点是，对自身技艺的基本功有着不懈的专注，数年如一日地以严苛的稳定性执行这些基本功，培养正确的思维模式，并围绕自己聚集合适的人。

But what they all have in common is a relentless focus on the fundamentals of their craft, executing those fundamentals with ruthless consistency for years, adopting the right mindsets, and surrounding themselves with the right people.

当然，拥有良好的基因也非常重要。

And then having the right genetics is also really important.

就这么简单。

And that's it.

所以我认为，当你观察最顶尖的那批人时，没有人会去折腾这些荒唐的健康把戏，因为他们根本没有时间做这些。

So I think that actually when you look at the tippy top, no one is engaging in any of these kind of cockamamie health things because they don't have the time to do it.

他们专注于掌握基本功。

They're focused on nailing the fundamentals.

我想，我和摩根·豪塞尔讨论过这个问题，我相信你的观众都知道他，他是《金钱心理学》的作者，情况一直如此。

And I think what happens is I had a conversation about this with Morgan Housel, who I'm sure your audience knows of psychology of money and same as ever.

然后我和我表弟聊了聊，我和他关系非常亲密，他经营着一家非常成功的财务咨询公司。

And then I talked to my cousin who I'm very close with, who I mentioned runs a very successful financial advisory practice.

我认为投资者面临的陷阱是，你没有时间坐下来评估这些说法，你希望走在前沿，成为顶尖表现者。

And I think that the trap that investors face is you don't have time to sit around and evaluate these claims, and you wanna be on the cutting edge, and you wanna be a peak performer.

但我对他们的建议是，这和市场上流传的那些荒谬投资建议没什么不同。

But what I say to them is it's no different than all the cockamamie investment advice that goes around.

这类东西总是循环出现的。

And this stuff comes in cycles.

而现在，我们正处于健康与长寿的潮流中。

And right now, we're in a health and longevity cycle.

十五年后，我们可能又回到了加密货币的庞氏骗局。

Fifteen years from now, we might be back in a cryptocurrency Ponzi scheme.

这里有10种方法能在十天内击败市场，只要你购买我的在线课程。

Here's 10 ways to beat the market in ten days if you buy my online course schedule.

因为你有专业领域知识，你可以看看这些说法，然后说：不行。

And because you have domain expertise, you can look at that and you can say, no.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

成为优秀投资者并积累财富的方法是，我不知道，因为我不是个优秀的投资者。

The way to become a great investor and to amass wealth is, I don't know, because I'm not a great investor.

但大概率存在一些相当枯燥的基本原则，你必须长期坚持它们。

But presumably, there's a set of fundamental principles that are rather boring, and you have to adhere to them for a very long time.

是的。

Yeah.

例如，评估一家企业的价值，然后以远低于其价值的价格买入。

For example, value a business and buy it for much less than it's worth.

你知道吗，乔·格林布拉特曾对我说，这就是所有投资的精髓。

You know, Joe Greenblatt has said to me that's the the essence of all investment.

每天运动，多去爱，避免食用超加工食品。

Move your body every day, love more, and avoid ultra processed foods.

就这么简单。

That's it.

但人们不想听这些，因为这看起来太简单了。

But people don't wanna hear that because it seems too simple.

我认为在健康和长寿这个领域，也需要注意一点，我从未亲自见过安德鲁·休伯曼。

And I think that it's important to also note in this health and longevity space and I've never met Andrew Huberman in person.

我从未见过彼得·阿蒂亚，所以我无法评判他们。

I've never met Peter Attia, so I can't judge them.

他们俩都非常出色。

And and they're both brilliant.

我并不是想贬低他们。

I don't mean to knock them.

我的意思是，

I mean,

他们很有天赋，是非常出色的沟通者，其中确实包含一些真理。

they're gifted They're very gifted communicators, and there is a kernel of truth to all of that.

比如，每天早起到户外接触自然光，无疑对人的昼夜节律有帮助。

Like, getting outside early in the day and getting natural light is undoubtedly helpful for one's circadian rhythm.

没有人会否认这一点。

No one would argue that.

然而，关于早晨低角度阳光的说法——必须是特定角度，且必须在醒来后九十分钟内——这是从五项针对小鼠的研究中推断出来的。

However, the notion of low angle morning sunlight, it has to be a certain angle, and it has to be within ninety minutes of your waking up, that's extrapolated from five studies that looked at mice.

明白吗？

K?

目前没有证据表明这会产生实际影响，尤其是当你因此焦虑、比平时更早起床、牺牲睡眠或放弃锻炼时。

There's no evidence that it makes a difference, especially if you're stressing about it and you're waking up earlier than you would in in forfeiting sleep or if you're forfeiting exercise.

彼得·阿蒂亚在进行VO2最大值测试。

Peter Attia in v o two max.

最大摄氧量当然很重要。

V o two max, it's great to have a good v o two max, of course.

但如何才能提高最大摄氧量呢？

But how do you get a good v o two max?

没有特别的训练计划。

There's no special program.

你只需要多活动身体。

You just move your body more.

你去锻炼。

You exercise.

我觉得很多这些传播者所做的，就是抓住了这些听起来很科学的复杂术语，而这些术语实际上只是对应一些非常枯燥的行为。

So I think that what a lot of these communicators have done is they've latched on to these kind of complex scientific sounding terms that are proxies for very boring behaviors.

然后人们就被那些听起来很吸引人的科学概念、炫目的新设备所吸引。

And then people get very caught up in the science that sounds sexy and the bright and shiny objects and the new device.

但归根结底，为了健康，还是规律锻炼。

But at the end of the day, for health, again, it's regular exercise.

避免食用超加工食品。

Avoid ultra processed foods.

这两点的结合应该能让你的体重保持在不肥胖的水平，因为这正是我们这里讨论的重点。

The combination of those two things ought to result in a body weight that is not obese, because that's what we're talking about here.

拥有社交支持、不使用烟草产品，如果要饮酒，务必适量。

Having community, not using tobacco products, and then if you're going to drink, do so in moderation.

如果你无法适量饮酒，那就完全戒酒。

And if you can't drink in moderation, then abstaining altogether.

就这么简单。

That's it.

实际上，没有其他事情真正重要了。

Like, there's nothing else really matters.

如果你想在体能方面成为顶尖表现者，那你就得选择一项运动，并为这项运动进行专项训练。

Now if you wanna be a great performer in a physical attribute, well, then you have to pick your sport and you have to train for that sport.

这和你在任何领域培养专长或精通技能的道理是一样的。

No different than how you develop mastery or domain expertise in anything.

最后，我想回溯一下你之前提到的一点，我完全同意。

And the last thing I'll say to loop back to something you said earlier, I couldn't agree more.

我理解精通的方式是：从简单到复杂，再回到简单。

The way that I like to think about mastery is you go from simple to complex back to simple.

当你刚接触某件事时，一切都很简单。

So when you're brand new to something, everything's simple.

你怎么才能完成600磅的硬拉？

How do you deadlift 600 pounds?

首先，你把所有重量集中在杠铃上，把它从地上举起来。

Well, you take all this weight and you lift the bar up off the ground.

然后你就进入了复杂阶段。

And then you get into complexity.

有交替握法和正握法的区别。

There's switch grip versus overhand grip.

有推地和拉起的不同方式。

There's pushing into the ground versus pulling.

有西莫式和传统式之分。

There's sumo versus conventional.

你可以在训练中做停顿硬拉。

There's pause deadlifts that you can do in your training.

你需要更强的股四头肌吗？需要更强的髋屈肌吗？

Do you need bigger quads, do you need stronger hip flexors?

如此种种，没完没了。

And on and on and on.

你可以花六年时间只研究如何把杠铃从地面举到臀部。

And you can spend six years just reading about moving a bar from the ground to your hips.

六年后，你该怎么硬拉？

And then after the six years, how do you deadlift?

你就直接把杠铃提起来。

You just pick the bar up.

所以它从简单到复杂，再回到简单。

So it goes from simple to complex back to simple.

是的。

Yeah.

这个想法非常深刻。

It's very profound, this idea.

我在关于简化的那一章中写了很多相关内容，还引用了乔什·韦德金的话，他也深谙这一理念，谈到掌握非常简单的技巧——通常成就成功的关键并不是多么复杂的技术。

And I write a lot about it in that chapter on simplicity and quote Josh Wadeskin, who's also a master of this idea of taking it talks about the mastery of very simple techniques that usually it's not something very complex that accounts for success.

关键是掌握一种非常简单的技巧。

It's the mastery of a very simple technique.

另外，为了培养这种坚韧的适应力，使我们能更好地应对变化和混乱，还有一个非常重要的方面，那就是控制我们对事物的反应。

So another thing just to change subject that's very important in terms of building this kind of rugged flexibility so that we can handle change and disorder well is controlling our reaction to things.

因为正如斯多葛哲学所言，我们无法总是控制发生在自己身上的事，但我们可以控制自己的回应方式。

Because as we know from stoic philosophy, we can't control what happens to us always, but we can control how we respond.

你在《变革大师》中提到的一个非常实用的技巧，就是你所说的‘四P技巧’。

One of the things that you talk about that's a very practical technique in Master of Change is what you call the 4Ps technique.

你能解释一下，你是如何运用这个技巧来减少反应性，从而不被外界事件所左右的吗？

Can you explain how you use this technique in a way to become less reactive so that we're not controlled what happens?