RWH055：内在计分卡——与皮科·艾耶的对话

我是说，沃伦在最近的伯克希尔年会上谈到这一点，他说他就喜欢坐着思考解决问题。

I mean, Warren talked about this at the last Bochatoly annual meeting where he said he just liked to sit around and solve problems.

而且，你知道，这里的问题指的是，比如分析判断，我是否应该投资这家企业？

And, you know, problems in the sense of, like, figuring out, know, should I invest in this business?

你知道，这家公司、这个行业未来会怎样发展？

You know, what's gonna happen in the future with this company, this industry?

而查理的兴趣则比他广泛得多，他真正渴望的是学习、研究、分享观点，并与他人探讨想法。

And Charlie was much broader than he was and really just wanted to learn and study and share ideas and talk to people about ideas.

因此他们都按照让自己快乐的方式构建了各自的生活。

And so they both structured their lives in a way that made them happy.

当我审视你的故事时，书中有一段精彩的内容，你写道：'自由地沉浸、漫游，迷失在周遭事物中，是最珍贵的财富。'

And when I look at your story as well, I mean, there's a there's a wonderful thing in the book where you you write the freedom to sink, to wander, and to lose myself in what's around me is the greatest of treasures.

所以我认为你只是明白了，对你而言，你需要优化的目标与其他人截然不同。

And so I think you just you figured out that for you, you had to optimize for something very different than other people.

听你这么说我真的很高兴。

I'm so glad you say all of that.

威廉，你简直说出了我的心声，因为我正想引用内在记分卡的概念。

You literally took the words out of my mouth, William, because I was about to cite the inner scorecard.

说实话，你书中描写的每一个人本质上都在背离常规。

And honestly, every one of the people you feature in your book is essentially stepping away from the norm.

你用了这个词，我想是‘部落局外人’。

You use this word, I think, tribal outsider.

你会指出他们每个人都不听彭博资讯。

Every one of them you will point out they're not listening to Bloomberg.

他们把时间都花在阅读书籍上。

They're spending their days reading books.

他们清空了自己的日程安排。

They're clearing out their schedule.

在很多方面，他们让我想起我的修士们——因为首先，他们着眼长远，关注大局。

I mean, many ways they reminded you of my monks of many reasons because a, they're looking at the long term, they're looking at the larger picture.

其次，他们不听世俗的喧嚣，这样才能听到不寻常、反直觉的声音，从而形成独到见解；他们有耐心，不会陷入不断忙碌的错觉中。

B) they're not listening to the chatter of the world so they can hear something unusual and and, counterintuitive and that's how they make original perceptions and they have patience and they're not getting caught up in the sense of constantly moving.

我记得你在书中某处说过，所有我敬佩的人往往都倾向于某种英雄式的无为，

I think you say something somewhere in your book, all the people I admire tend to in the direction of heroic inactivity or something,

这是一个描述

which is a description

梭罗的句子，确实如此，他们懂得倾听自己的声音，而非周围那些嘈杂却无甚用处的噪音。

of Thoreau, and exactly so, that they have a sense of how to listen to their own voice and not the clamor of, many less useful voices around.

我多年前曾读到一篇对法国极具原创性的设计师菲利普·斯塔克的采访。

I I remember years ago, I was reading an interview with Philippe Starck, the very original French designer.

记者问他：你是如何持续不断地提出新颖创意的？

He was asked how do you keep on coming up with new fresh ideas all the time?

他回答非常简单：每年夏天我会去乡间别墅住三个月，

He said very very easy, every summer for three months I go to my house in the countryside.

就在那里安静度日——不参加晚宴，不看报纸，也不见那些在巴黎常碰面的人，只是过着宁静的乡居生活。

I just spend my time quietly there and I'm not going to dinner parties, I'm not reading the newspaper, I'm not talking to all the people I would usually meet in Paris, I'm just going around a quiet country life.

因此很自然地，这三个月后我产生的所有想法都会与众不同，完全跳脱出巴黎第六区人们谈论的常规范畴。

And so by definition everything I come out with at the end of those three months is going to be different, outside the envelope, entirely other than what everybody is talking about in the 6th Arrondissement.

我认为你提到的所有成功的投资者，他们的成功之处在于能够跳出常规、打破常规，以与众不同的方式思考问题。

And I think all the people, the investors that you highlight are successes because they're thinking outside the norm and outside the box and in different ways from others.

我认为这一直是我对作家的理解。

And I think that's always been my notion of writers.

我记得当我立志成为作家时，我观察了当时一些著名作家，无论是托马斯·品钦、科马克·麦卡锡还是安妮·迪拉德，我思考他们有什么共同点？

I remember when I wanted to be a writer I looked at some of the prominent writers at the time whether it was Thomas Pyncher or Cormac McCarthy or Annie Dillard, I thought what do they have in common?

我们从未在电视访谈节目中见过他们，他们住在与世隔绝的地方，不会出席曼哈顿的每一场晚宴。

We never see them on TV talk shows, they're living in the middle of nowhere, they're not at every Manhattan dinner party.

这就是为什么他们创造的一切都如此激进和惊人。

That's why everything that comes out from them is radical and startling.

我很喜欢你再次提到梭罗，因为他是关于'布吉街'那个问题的答案。正如你所说，人们常认为他是隐士、热爱独处的人，却忘了他在《瓦尔登湖》中写道：'我天生不是隐士，我和任何人一样热爱社交。'

And I love the fact you mentioned Thoreau again because he's the answer to that question about Boogie Street and you know, as you said, people often think of him as a hermit and as somebody who loves solitude and forget that he writes in Walden, I am naturally no hermit, I love society as much as anybody.

你知道，他周六会有朋友来瓦尔登湖拜访，周日会回母亲家吃饭。他在被征服的学园做的首次演讲主题不是独处，而是社会。在康科德，他以社交达人著称——每年举办甜瓜派对，当爱默生进行十个月巡回演讲时，他会帮忙照顾其家人，还会帮邻里修理水管等等。

He had, you know, friends visiting him in Walden Pond on Saturdays and on Sundays he'd go back to his mother's house for dinner, and the very first talk he gave to the conquered Lyceum wasn't on solitude, it was on society, and he was known as a sort of man around town in Concord who would hold melon parties every year and look after Emerson's family when Emerson was taking ten month tours and would fix people's plumbing and the rest of it.

所以他去瓦尔登湖两年两个月零两天，其实是一种投资——为的是重返康科德中心生活时能带回更多。他特意把木屋建在即将每天20次呼啸而过的铁路旁，并非追求隐居，而是为了在边缘静坐足够久，从而记住什么对自己真正重要，并积蓄能带回现实世界、带回布吉街的力量储备。

And so again his going to Walden Pond for two years and two months and two days was an investment so that he would have more to bring back when he started living in the centre of Concord once more, and he chose to build his cabin right next to the railroad, along which a railway was going to be charging noisily 20 times a day, so he wasn't really seeking seclusion, but just the chance to sit in a margin long enough to be able to remember what was important to him, and then have gathered the resources he could bring back into the world and into Boogie Street.

因此我认为他在瓦尔登湖的时光，就像莱昂纳德·科恩在修道院的时光一样，本质上都是为了成为社会更有用成员的手段。

So I think his time at Walden Pond, Leonard Cohen's time in the monastery, was, as much as anything, a means to the ends of becoming a more useful member of society.

我觉得这一切都围绕着如何以适合你的方式在世界上运作的理念——适合你的性情、技能和优先事项。

I think somehow it all revolves around this idea of of defining how you're going to operate in the world in a way that suits you, you know, that suits your temperament and your skills and and your priorities.

昨天我们在邮件中还提到了尼克·斯利普，我书中著名的投资者之一，他说他和他的合伙人扎卡里亚（扎克）经常自称隐士和僧侣。

And I you and I were emailing yesterday about Nick Sleep, one of the famous investors in my book, who said that he and his partner, a case, Zakaria, Zach, would refer to themselves often as hermits and monks.

他们就是那种足够固执、足够特立独行的人，所以能坦然说：没错，

And and they just they were sort of ornery enough and independent spirited enough that they were able to say, yeah.

我们就是不想像其他对冲基金人士那样在伦敦梅菲尔区工作，

Well, we're not gonna live in oh, we're not gonna work in Mayfair in London with the rest of the hedge fund guys.

我们选择住在国王路上方一家中餐馆楼上，在那间阳光充沛的办公室里，墙上还挂着他们配套的养蜂人服装。

We're gonna we're gonna live above a Chinese hub store on the King's Road and, in this beautiful light filled office that had their matching beekeeper suits on the wall.

而且扎克甚至没有办公桌。

And Zac didn't even have a desk.

我是说，他真的连张桌子都没有。

I mean, literally had no desk.

他就只有一张安乐椅，那种懒人椅。

He just had a sort of easy chair, a sort of lazy boy chair.

所以，这种能够按照自己真实意愿生活工作的能力，我觉得真的非常了不起。

And so, yeah, there's something so amazing, I think, about that ability to live to live and work in a way that's true to you.

我记得在写书过程中的某个时刻，我意识到自己无意识地选择了所有这些性格倔强、思想独立的人，正是因为我内心也极度渴望能像他们那样生活。

And I I think at a certain point when I was working on my book, I realized that I'd unconsciously selected all of these people who were ornery enough and independent spirited enough to live their way because I think I had such a deep yearning to do it myself.

在某种程度上，他们已经破解了如何按照自己真实意愿生活的密码。

And and so in some way, they had kind of cracked the code of how to live in a way that that was true to themselves.

就像芒格说的，金钱其实与那些奢华的物品无关。

And in a way that I mean, Munger talked about how the money really wasn't about, you know, the fancy possessions.

它关乎的是独立性。

It was about independence.

所以我认为这触及了一个非常重要的点——如果你恰好追求自由和独立，那么整个优化方向就应该围绕这个核心。

And so I think this gets at something so important, this whole idea of optimising for freedom and independence, if that's what you happen to like.

当然，我觉得也有很多人喜欢成为组织中的一员。

I think there are plenty of people who like to be part of an organisation.

我想我们恰好是那种有点不合常规的人，你知道的，就是有点叛逆、有点颠覆性，而且非常独立自主。

I think you and I just happen to be these slightly off kilter humans who, you know, just disobedient and slightly subversive and, just so independent spirited.

是的。

Yes.

确实如此。

And and exactly.

我认为你的书本质上是一本关于你——威廉——想要如何生活的指南。

I think your book is essentially prescription for how you, William, want to live.

因此我认为，如果让其他人来写沃伦·巴菲特、尼克·斯利普、霍华德·马克斯等人的故事，他们可能会突出不同的侧面。

Which is why I think if lots of other people were to write about Warren Buffett and Nick Sleep and Howard Marx and the others, they would highlight other aspects of them.

但在所有被聚焦的人物身上，我反复感受到的正是你所说的那些特质——这些显然也是你内心所渴望的品质。

But over and over in all the people that do spotlight, I sense a stress of very much those same qualities which are clearly as you say the qualities you long for.

比如我想起约翰·坦普顿爵士住在巴哈马群岛，对吧？

I mean I think of Sir John Templeton living in The Bahamas, isn't that right?

但《华尔街日报》六天后才找到他，这说明他们都不读《华尔街日报》，这样才能做出与众不同的东西。

But so the Wall Street Journal is finding him six days late and that speaks for the fact that all of them are not reading the Wall Street Journal so as to come up with something different.

当然，他强调精神财富才是他真正的追求，你也指出最初认识他时未能理解这点，但现在你明白他积累的财富实际上只是实现更高目标的手段。

And also of course he was stressing spiritual wealth was really what he was about, and you point out how you couldn't appreciate that when first you met him, but now you see that the money he accumulated again was really a means to some bigger end.

令我印象深刻的是，你关注的许多人某种程度上都是道德理想主义者。

It struck me that so many of the people you focus on are in some ways moral idealists.

他们关心的不是致富，而是在某种程度上传播智慧与幸福。

Their concern isn't with getting rich, and it is it's with spreading the wisdom and spreading the happiness to some extent.

其中一些人是基督徒，许多人开着破旧的皮尔斯或丰田而非特斯拉，你总能感受到他们在为超越自我的事业服务——这正是你选择强调的，显然这对你来说最为重要。

Some certain of them are Christians, many of them drive beat up Pierces or Toyotas instead of Teslas, and you can always sense that they're in the service of something beyond themselves and that's what you choose to highlight so that's clearly what is most important to you.

你说得对，当我在书中描述人物时，我可能是在按照自己的偏见或偏好重塑他们，让他们成为我渴望追求的理想映射。

And you're right, I probably when I'm describing people in my book I'm sort of recreating them in the light of my own prejudices or, my preferences and, making them a reflection of what I want to aspire to.

我认为这其中另一个重要的现实因素（虽然对投资者不太适用，但在这本书里很关键）是：我能为ICU带来什么？

I think the other important practical element in all this that doesn't apply so much to investors but does in this book is my question is: what do I have to bring to the ICU?

换句话说，无论你是谁，生活都会向我们抛出无数挑战——某天深夜你会突然接到电话，得知你爱的人住院了，或者你自己住进了医院。

In other words, whoever you are, life is going to throw many, many challenges our way, and suddenly you're going to get a call in the middle of the night somebody you love is in the hospital, or you are in the hospital.

面对这种情况时，你能提供什么？

What do you have to bring to that situation?

当你的银行账户帮不上什么忙，你的简历无关紧要，你写过的书或读过的书也都无济于事时

When your bank account isn't really going to be much help, and your resume is going to be immaterial, and the books you've written or the books you've read are going to be beside the point.

你能为那种处境带来什么？

What do you have to bring to that?

因为你将不得不面对生活多次发出的召唤

Because you're going to have to face that life is going to make a hearth call many times over.

因此这也是我强调这种内在投资、内在储蓄账户概念的一个原因

And so that too is one reason why I stress this sort of notion of an inner investment, inner savings account.

当电话突然在这个小公寓里响起，我得知远在世界另一端的母亲突发严重中风，作为她唯一的孩子我必须赶到她身边时，我唯一能带去的就是我内心积累的那些资源。我感觉其中大部分并非来自我在高速公路上开车、在时代广场匆忙穿梭与上百位朋友交谈的时刻，而是来自那些我保持安静、能够触及更深层自我的时刻——那可能才是我真正的核心

And the only thing when suddenly the phone began to rattle in this little apartment and I heard that my mother across the world had had a major stroke and I as her only child had to be with her, the only thing I could bring to that situation were whatever resources I'd gathered within and I felt that most of them had come not from when I was driving along the freeway or bustling through Times Square talking to a 100 friends but from those times when I was quiet and could access something deeper that was really probably the core of me.

有趣的是，在寺院经历中似乎能产生如此多的慈悲心，我想部分原因可能是看到僧侣们如何身体力行地体现这种慈悲

It's it's interesting how much compassion seems to come out of those experiences of being in a monastery, and I I guess some of it is probably just seeing the monks and how they embody it.

但有个美好的场景，我想是你看到一只一直烦扰你的黄蜂，第二天发现它快要死了，于是你把它放在托盘上带到阳光下，至少让它能在生命的最后时刻享受阳光

But I there's a lovely scene where I I think you see a wasp that's been annoying you, and you and then and then you see the next day that it's dying, and you kind of take it out on a tray into the sunshine so it can at least, you know, be in the sun in its last few hours.

这个场景真的深深打动了我

And I I was really struck by that.

就像，我是说，这或许是一种佛教观念，对吧？当你剥离了所有压力、愤怒以及那些浮于表面、激发我们最坏一面的东西后，会发现我们内心深处其实存有某种良善。

Like, the I mean, maybe this is a sort of Buddhist notion, right, that once you strip away all of the stress and the anger and the stuff that we have on the surface that brings out the worst in us, that underneath there's a kind of goodness to us.

你对此有什么看法吗？

Do do you have thoughts on that?

我很喜欢这个观点。

I love that.

是的。

Yes.

我是说，基督教传统中的迈斯特·埃克哈特曾说过，成长的过程不是加法而是减法。

I mean, Meister Eckhart in the Christian tradition said that the process of growing up is not addition but subtraction.

所以在某种程度上，剥除所有杂乱、多余和蒙蔽之物，才能发现深藏的本质。

So in a way, stripping away all the clutter and the excess and the obscuration to find what is there deep down.

佛教徒也常提到擦净窗户的比喻。

I think the Buddhists also talk about cleaning windows.

换言之，在某个层面上，我们每个人都是一块透明的玻璃，只是会被各处沾染的尘埃与泥土所蒙蔽。

In other words, at some level all of us are a transparent pain, but it gets clouded over and full of, you know, dirt and mud here and there.

我们的职责就是去除所有这些遮蔽，然后我们就能以透明的姿态面对世界。

Our job is to take all of that away and then we are transparent to the world.

所以我非常相信这一点，而且我确信我的基督徒朋友们也相信这一点，那些与我共处的僧侣们也是如此。

So I very much believe that and I think certainly my Christian friends believe that, the monks that I spend time with.

当然我必须强调，正如我在书中所写，尽管那个夜晚我对狼产生了同情心，但两天后当我陷入高速公路的交通高峰时，我可能还是会像以前一样烦躁、分心且刻薄。

And of course I've got to say, which I stress in the book, that after that evening of feeling compassionate towards a wolf, two days later when I'm back in the middle of rush hour traffic down on the highway, I'm as frazzled and distracted and unkind as I would have been before, probably.

我知道这不是立竿见影的解药，也没有把我变成某种完人，但当我堵在车流中对隔壁司机大喊大叫时，至少我还保有那个记忆——甚至还能期待：哦，这世上确实存在一个稍微好一点的我，只要心念一动就能找回那个状态。

I know that it's not an instant cure and it hasn't transformed me into some kind being, but as I'm in the middle of the rush hour traffic shouting at the next driver, at least I have the memory and even the prospect of, oh, there is a slightly better me somewhere in the world that if I am so moved I can recover.

我不必总是做个焦躁不安的角色。

I don't have to be always this fretful, agitated character.

这再次提醒我们，只要涤除杂念，就能回归更好的本真自我。

Again, it's a recollection of the better self we can be if only we can cleanse ourselves of the rest of it.

请多谈谈那些僧侣，他们非常特别，你曾提到修道生活在某种程度上是对死亡的训练，但同时也是对生命的训练。

Talk to us more about the monks because they're very extraordinary, and you you talk about how in in some ways monastic life is a is a training for death, but it's also a training for life.

能否描述他们的日常生活是怎样的？以及你从观察中学到了什么可以带入世俗世界并复制的智慧？

Can you talk about what their lives are like and and what you actually learn from watching them that you can take out into the world and replicate.

是的。

Yes.

记得我刚开始在修道院留宿时，那里对我来说简直如同天堂。

You know I remember soon after I first began to stay at the monastery and it seemed equivalent to heaven for me.

当时我住在小拖车里，突然遭遇了一场可怕的冬季风暴。

I was there in my little trailer and suddenly one of those terrible winter storms broke out.

整夜雨水敲打着屋顶，狂风吹撼着这座木屋脆弱的根基。

All night the rain just beat on my roof and the wind shook the very flimsy foundations of this wooden building.

透过雾气望去，我看不到一丝灯光或人类居住的痕迹。

And I looked out through the mist and I couldn't see a single light or sign of human habitation.

我知道哪怕只是去厨房取盒牛奶，也得穿过这场倾盆暴雨。

And I knew just to get a carton of milk from the kitchen I'd have to walk through this torrential storm.

这太可怕了，真的，真的非常孤独。

It was terrifying, Really, really lonely.

感觉就像在荒野中度过了四十个昼夜。

It felt like, you know, forty days and nights in the wilderness.

无处可逃，无处可藏，我基本上就是孤身一人身处荒芜之中。

Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, I'm alone in the middle of nowhere, essentially.

当然，第二天太阳升起时，这一切突然都成了遥远的记忆。

And of course the next day the sun rose and suddenly that was all just a distant memory.

但这确实让我想起了僧侣们的勇气，他们日复一日地生活在狭小的禅房里，有时周围只有他们的疑虑、恐惧和挫折。

But it really reminded me of the courage of the monks who are living day in, day out, in little cells, sometimes surrounded by nothing but their doubts and their fears and their frustrations.

当我去那里静修时，身处这个田园诗般宁静的地方，我要做的只是散步、看星星、读书和眺望大海。

And when I go there on retreat I'm in this idyllic place of silence when all I have to do is take walks and look at the stars and read books and look out over the ocean.

但每当我过去和僧侣们一起住在围栏的另一侧时，情况就完全相反。

But whenever I go and stay on the other side of the enclosure with the monks, it's the opposite.

没有海景可看，他们不停地忙碌着，就像你之前说的，要招待所有客人、互相照顾、推车运送物品去洗衣房、结算账目、确保明天晚餐有食物。

No ocean views, they're constantly in movement, as you were saying earlier, serving all of the guests and looking after one another and wheeling and taking things to the laundry and settling accounts and making sure there's food for dinner tomorrow.

这是一种极其艰难的生活，他们一天24小时都在那里度过余生，常常与那些在其他情况下可能永远不会选择共同生活的人住在一起，却做出了服务他们的重大承诺，这甚至比婚姻更难，因为在婚姻中至少你选择的是你认识并觉得爱的人。

It's an incredibly difficult life and they're there twenty four hours a day for the rest of their lives, often living with people that in other circumstances they never might have chosen to live with but having made this huge commitment to serve them, which is even harder than a marriage where at least you're choosing somebody that you know that you feel that you love.

所以我非常钦佩他们的勇气和信心，正如你所知，书中反复出现的一个主题是，因为他们生活在远离邮局的偏远荒野中，被火焰包围，突然间火焰会越过山脊，几乎所有僧侣都不得不逃离和疏散。

And so I really admire their courage and I really admire their confidence, and as you know one of the recurrent themes in the book is that over and over, because they're living in this remote wilderness and awe from the nearest post office, they're encircled by far, And suddenly flames will surge over the ridge and nearly all of the monks have to take flight and evacuate.

我记得就在不久前，又发生了一场火灾，三位僧人留下来协助消防员保护家园，其余的人则撤离到了安全地带。

And at one point I remember quite recently there was another one of these fires and three monks stayed behind to help the firefighters to try to protect their home and the rest went off to a safer place.

每天，修道院院长都会向像我这样关心的朋友们发送最新情况。

And every day the prior would send updates out to concerned friends such as myself.

我记得有一天他写信说，'到处都是浓烟。'

And I remember one day he wrote and he said, There's smoke everywhere.

火焰正从我们身后约200码的山脊蔓延过来。

There were flames coming over the ridge maybe 200 yards behind us.

但请别担心，我们仍坚守岗位，在会议厅继续守夜、晚祷和晨祷。

But don't worry, we're maintaining our offices and we're continuing with vigils and vespers and matins in the Chapter Room.

祝福大家！

Blessed day all!

祝福大家！

Blessed day all!

他在那天写下这些话时，看起来很可能失去生命，甚至更可能失去家园。

He wrote on the day when it looked like he might well lose his life and even more likely lose his home.

那种程度的信心，在我看来是英勇非凡的，每当我看到这种情景，我就会想，如果我能拥有其中的一小部分，我的生活就会好得多。

That degree of confidence, is heroic to me and extraordinary and when I see that I think if I could have a fraction of that I'd be so much better off in my life.

当然在他这种情况下，这种信心来源于信仰，但更来源于超越信仰的东西——或者说信仰是开发其他内在资源的手段，而这些资源或许是我们所有人都能获得的。

And in his case of course it comes from faith but comes from something more than that or faith is a means to developing other resources that probably are available to all of us.

再次说明，我描述的那座修道院在过去八年中有七年时间完全与世隔绝。

Again, seven of the last eight years the monastery I describe, has been completely cut off from the rest of the world.

三次因冬季暴风雪，两次因山火，还有两次因新冠疫情。

Three times by winter storms, twice by fires, and twice by COVID.

那里的修士大部分已年过八旬，现仅存十五人左右，且经常病痛缠身。

And most of the monks there, there are 15 or so left and mostly in their eighties, quite often falling ill.

他们不得不靠直升机撤离，而那位既是精神之父也是实际照料者的修士，每晚都要驱车两个半小时往返于漆黑山路，穿过偏僻小径去病榻前守夜，只为陪伴可能濒死的同门兄弟——五个小时的黑暗车程，夜复一夜。

They have to be helicoptered out and then the prayer, who is literally their mother as well as their father, has to drive two and a half hours each way through the dark to be at the bedside, through a back road of his fallen brother, every night, five hours through the dark, just to keep vigil with another monk who might be dying.

目睹这种奉献与服从精神（正如你之前提到的），或许你我都不太擅长融入群体，也不善于对某些信念产生信仰飞跃——但我绝对能相信这种举动中体现的英雄主义与无私，并认为这是我们所有人都能受益的品质。

And to see that kind of devotion and obedience, and even you mentioned before, you and I are probably not always very good at joining groups and maybe we're not very good at making leaps of faith to certain beliefs, But I can certainly believe in the heroism and the selflessness of that kind of act and see that's something that all of us would benefit from.

因此能与这些修士相识三十三年、共同经历百余次禅修直至白头，实在是莫大的殊荣。最动人的是，当我完成书稿后，特意将手稿寄给两位修士审阅——因为我不愿擅自定夺。

So it's been a huge privilege to really spend, grow so close to these monks over thirty three years and spending more than a 100 retreats with them, I've grown old with them and I've come to know them very very well, and one of the touching things is that when I finished the book I sent the manuscript off to two of the monks because I didn't want to presume.

他们实际上立下了隐姓埋名的誓言，过着极度隐居的生活，我不想披露不该说的内容，也不想曲解他们投身其中的这种极其复杂而微妙的戒律。

They've made it a vow really of anonymity and they live lives of deep privacy and I didn't want to disclose things I shouldn't have or distort this very complicated and subtle discipline they've given themselves to.

我特别把书稿寄给了其中一位僧侣——正如你读到的——他坦承了许多恐惧与挫折。

And in particular I sent it to one of the monks who, as you read, confesses a lot of his fears and frustrations.

他在这严苛的教团中并不快乐，而且这个教团没有退出的可能。

He doesn't feel happy in this order and it's a relentless order and there's no escape.

我说：如果有任何内容需要删除，请务必告诉我，我会立刻照办。

And I said, well please if there's anything you'd like me to take out I defer and I will do so instantly.

他立刻回信说，不，请务必接受，我们所能奉献的主要礼物正是我们的破碎与不完美，我们的人性。

And he wrote back instantly and he said, no, please, the main gift we have to offer is our brokenness and our imperfection, our humanity.

我们并非高居云端之上。

We're not above the clouds.

我们和其他人一样，都在与自己的挫折和疑虑作斗争，而这正是我们需要与他人分享的东西。

We're just struggling through our own frustrations and doubts like everybody else and that's the thing that we have to share with other people.

让我深受触动的是，他希望我把他描述成一个时常迷茫、不确定自己是否走在对的路上的人，而非一个已将所有疑问抛诸脑后的人。

And I was so touched that he wanted me to present him as somebody who half the time didn't know where he was going and wasn't sure if he was in the right place and not somebody who'd put all questions behind him.

是的。

Yeah.

我我我觉得你说的一点很有意思，你说——呃，我想你写过——当你步入静默时，那些阴暗面并不会消失。

I I I thought it was very interesting that you said that one of the things that well, I think you you wrote that the dark places don't go away when you step into silence.

如果说有什么变化，那就是它们会浮到表面，但你能比在高速公路上疾驰时更清晰地看清它们。

If anything, they rise to the surface, but you can see them clearly as you never could when barreling along the freeway.

我觉得这和冥想有点相似，当我尝试笨拙地冥想时——我大多时候会做，但不是每天——你真正更清楚看到的是自己思维的疯狂，它如何永不停歇地担忧，你会看到自己的焦虑等等。

And I think it's a bit similar to to meditation where, when I do my hapless attempts at meditation, which I do most days, but not every day, really what you see much more clearly is just the madness of your own mind and how it just never stops worrying, and, you see your own anxiety and stuff.

这确实相当令人不安，因为你变得更加意识到海洋表面之下那种漩涡般的存在。

And it's it's quite unsettling become because you become more aware of the the maelstrom under under under the the sort of surface of the ocean.

对吧？

Right?

这一点让我印象非常深刻。

I was very struck by that.

你说过——我想是其中一位修士，可能是你刚提到的那位——他说你会遇到阴影面，就像荣格说的那样，你会面对所有关于性、独处时的思绪和渴望的问题。

You you said that I I I think it was one one of the months, maybe the one you just talked about, was saying that you you meet the shadow, as Jung would say, you know, you see all the issues of your sexuality and you're alone with your thoughts and your longings.

是的。

Yes.

据我所知，这和冥想完全是一回事。

I'd say it's a 100% the same as meditation, from what I understand.

而且我认为，如果你能像现在这样保持基本每日冥想练习的话，可能就不太需要像我这样专门抽三天时间去静修了。

And I think if, as you do, you maintain a more or less daily meditation practice, there's probably much less need to go off and spend three days on retreat the way I do.

我没有冥想习惯，所以静修就是我的替代方式——但最终效果是相同的。沉默对很多人来说确实可怕，因为他们觉得一旦独处牢房，创伤和可怕记忆就会涌现，那时既不能靠电视音乐转移注意力，也无法用平常方式逃避困扰。

I don't have a meditation practice and that's why this is my equivalent but it does come to the same thing And silence is rightly terrifying to many people because they feel if I'm alone in my cell that's exactly when the traumas will arise and the terrible memories and there's no way I can distract myself with TV or music or any of the usual ways that I run away from the things that bother me.

这确实是个问题，它使得这种修行如同冥想一样毫不留情。

And that is a problem and it does make it an unsparing kind of discipline as with meditation.

但我总觉得既然这些阴影不会消失，既然我必须在某种程度上面对它们，我宁愿在一个相对安静安全的地方这样做——比如当我试图在高速公路上导航时，或当我在肯尼迪机场赶航班时，或做着生活中其他经常做的事情时——实际上那是一片开阔的草地，在那里我能比心不在焉时更清楚地看清它们。

But I always feel since those shadows are not going to go away and since I do have to face them at some level, I'd much rather do so in a place of relative quiet and safety like that when I'm trying to navigate the freeway or when I'm in JFK Airport running between flights or, you know, doing the things I do so often in the rest of my life, that actually that's an open meadow in which I can see them much better than I could when I'm half distracted.

我觉得对自己感到沮丧的部分原因是，自从开始冥想后，我更加意识到自己麻痹自己的方式。

I feel like part of my frustration with myself is that maybe I'm more conscious since I've been meditating of the ways in which I'm I'm sort of numbing myself or narcotizing myself.

我甚至能看出来，当我从书桌走到冰箱或厕所时，我觉得自己应该听个播客或是什么的。

And I can see even that when I walk between my desk and the refrigerator or the loo or whatever it is, I feel like I should be playing a podcast or something.

我越来越觉得，由于科技的诱惑力，加上手机能满足我所有需求，现在要独处、独自面对自己的思想变得越来越困难。

And I feel increasingly like because of the seductiveness of technology and the fact that my phone has everything I could possibly want on it, it's actually very, very hard increasingly to be alone with myself and alone with my thoughts.

所以某种程度上，我觉得你近年的演讲和书籍就像一种提醒——在这个社会里保持清醒、觉察表面下的事物变得多么困难，因为我们随时都能轻易分散自己的注意力。

And so I I feel like in some ways your your talks in the last few years in your books are kind of a reminder of how hard it it's become in this society actually to be conscious and awake and aware of what's going on beneath the surface because it's so easy to distract ourselves all of the time.

是的。

Yes.

而且我发现，唯有通过什么也不做，才能真正在某些方面有所作为。

And it's only, I find, by doing nothing that I'm really able to do anything in some ways.

这让我再次想到你在书中描述的那些人。

And again, it strikes me when I think of the people you profile in your book.

他们并不是一直盯着手机。

They're not constantly on the phone.

你反复强调他们保持着完全空白的日程表。

You again and again stress that they're keeping their schedules entirely empty.

巴菲特晚年时每天阅读五六个小时，而你知道其他人则把时间花在马可·奥勒留和塞涅卡身上。

Buffet at a late age is reading for five or six hours a day and you know others of them are spending their time with Marcus Aurelius and Seneca.

换句话说，他们每个人本质上都花了很多时间独处。

In other words, all each one of them is spending a lot of time essentially alone.

我想你说的是在阅读和沉思中。

I think you say in reading and contemplation.

但是，是的。

But Yeah.

我用了一个短语叫'有意的断联'，我认为这就是他们正在做的。

I I use the word the phrase intentional disconnection, and I think that's what they're doing.

像汤姆·盖纳这样的人会非常明确地说，我记得他在弗吉尼亚的办公室时对我说——那时他管理着拥有两万名员工的马克尔公司。

I think someone like Tom Gaynor very consciously would say oh, you know, I remember him saying to me when I was in his office in Virginia when he was running the Markel Corporation with 20,000 employees.

他问：你今天听到我的电话响了几次？

And he said, how many times have you heard my phone go today?

可能一整天就一两次吧。

And it was like once, twice in an entire day, maybe.

所以他只是构建了这样一种安静平和的生活。

And so he just constructed this life that was so quiet and peaceful.

因此我认为部分原因在于我们意识到，要进行任何深度工作，都必须先断开连接。

And so I think part of it is this realization that we have that to do any kind of deep work, we're going to have to disconnect.

但与此同时，这就像我知道应该少吃点、多骑动感单车（就放在洗衣机和烘干机旁边，我称之为‘洗衣房环法赛’）的困难一样。

But at the same time, it's it's like the difficulty that I have of knowing I should eat less and get on my Peloton that's in in, in next to my washing machine and dryer so that I can do what I call the tour de laundry room.

这真的太难了。

And it's just so hard.

所以我想，你是在提醒我们某些我们隐约知道却又几乎无法做到的事。

And so I I think, you know, you're reminding us of something that we sort of all know and yet that's almost impossible for us to do.

是的，除非现实迫使我们不得不这样做。

Yes, until maybe necessity forces us to.

我认为疫情对很多人产生了这种影响。

I think that the pandemic had that effect on many of us.

突然间我们无法像往常一样奔波，每天醒来都要选择：如何度过接下来的十六小时？

Suddenly we couldn't race around in the same way, and suddenly when we woke up we had a choice: how am I going to fill these next sixteen hours?

我想很多人突然意识到生命中重要的是什么：朋友、家人、健康、热爱的事物，而那些曾让我们沉迷的其他事情其实没那么重要。

And I think many people suddenly realise this is what's important in my life: my friends, my family, my health, my passions, and these other things that I've been so hypnotised by are much less important.

但你说得对，强迫自己达到这种理解真的非常非常困难。

But you're absolutely right, it's really, really difficult to force oneself to that understanding.

我记得在纽约工作时过得非常精彩，当时想如果搬到京都住单间，无论发生什么或不发生什么，一天都会变得像一百小时那么漫长。

I remember when I was working in New York City and I was having such an exciting time, I thought if I move to Kyoto in a single room, whatever happens or doesn't happen, the day is going to last a hundred hours then.

谁知道呢，那是一片广阔天地，而不是我之前生活的那些挤满摩天大楼的街道。

So who knows, you know, that's a huge open field instead of the crowded skyscraper filled avenues that I was inhabiting before.

我在某种程度上认为这正是我们真正需要的。

And I thought in some ways that's what we really need.

我想我们所有人拥有的时间都比自己意识到的要多。

I mean I think all of us have more time than we know.

当我们说没时间冥想、没时间去静修、没时间阅读或做你描述的那些投资大师们所做的事情时，几乎就像在说我没时间吃药或没时间看医生一样。

And when we say I don't have time to meditate or I don't have time to go on retreat or I don't have time to read or to do some of the things that the master investors you describe are doing, it's almost as if we're saying I don't have time to take my medicine or I don't have time to go to the doctor.

我想你和我，可能还有收听这期节目的许多人，都曾挤出时间去健身房或每天做些运动，因为我们知道这对身体健康至关重要。

And you and I, I think, and probably many people listening to this, have made the time to go to the health club or to do some form of exercise every day because we know it's essential to our body's health.

所以我认为我们其实都有能力腾出时间关照自己的情绪心理健康，这从根本上决定了我们能否好好度过人生。

And so I think we actually have it in us to make the time to tend to our emotional mental health, which is much more important essentially for how we survive our lives or not.

正如你所说，我们都心知肚明，这是那些常挂心头却鲜少践行的新年决心之一。

As you say, we all sense that and it's one of those good New Year's resolutions that is always in our heads but rarely in our lives.

但我认为回报在于——当我最初不情不愿地去健身俱乐部时，第一个意外发现是不仅我更快乐了，这还成了我日常中的美妙间歇，实际上促进了我的工作。于是我便像你书中描述的那些人一样，通过在隐修院的时光，学会了一些让自己无所事事却能更快乐的方法。

But I think the payoff is, I mean, when I started reluctantly going to the health club, the first surprise was I felt so much happier as well as It was a wonderful break in my day, it actually helped me with my work, and so, you know, I've implemented certain things probably like the people that you describe in your book as a result of spending time in The Hermitage that allow me to do nothing and allow me to be much happier than I would be otherwise.

因此我写作修行的重要部分就是每天散步两次，那才是我真正写出最佳作品的时刻。

So a big part of my writing discipline is taking two walks a day, and that's when really I do the best writing.

还有当我在等妻子下班回家时——可能之前跟你提过——无论要等二十分钟还是七十分钟，我都会关掉灯静静听音乐，这样感觉好多了。

And when I'm waiting for my I might have told you this before and when I'm waiting for my wife to come back from work and I don't know if it's going to be twenty minutes or seventy minutes, I just turn off the lights and listen to music, and I feel so much better.

这并非在浪费时间，而是在修复时间。

And it's not as if I'm wasting the time, I'm restoring it.

我不是在消磨时间。

I'm not killing the time.

我让时间充满生机，当她钥匙插进门锁时我感觉如此神清气爽，那天晚上也睡得格外香甜。

I'm making it alive, and I feel so much fresher when her key is in the door and I sleep so much better that day.

所以从某种角度来说，这些都是利己的事情，就像吃菠菜一样，但如果你能把菠菜做得足够美味，那它就和哈根达斯的任何冰淇淋一样可口。

So in some ways these are all self interested things that are sort of like eating your spinach, but if you can make the spinach tasty enough it's as good as any ice cream that you would choose from from Haagen Dazs.

如果最终能让你更快乐，那就值得去做。

And if it's going to make you feel happier at the end, it's worth it.

再说，一百年前摩根大通的JP摩根——正如大多数听众可能知道的那样——每年给自己整整两个月的休假，并说他在十个月里取得的成就永远无法在十二个月内完成。

And again, you know, a hundred years ago JP Morgan, as most of the people listening to your podcasts probably know, gave himself two whole months off every year and said he could never achieve in twelve months what he achieves in ten months.

而那还是世界节奏慢得多的时代。

And that was when the world was so much slower.

这就是为什么，无论是CEO还是硅谷精英，我认为所有我们敬佩的领导者都有意识地采取措施——无论是散步、冥想还是数字排毒——来确保自己拥有重新思考的空间和时间。

And that's why, whether it's CEOs or people in Silicon Valley, I think all the leaders that we admire have conscious measures that they take, whether it's going for walks or meditating or digital detox, to ensure that they have the space and time to think afresh.

是啊。

Yeah.

我...我深受触动。

I I was very struck.

你在书的致谢部分最后一页写道。

You you wrote on the final page of the book in the acknowledgments.

这本书讲述的是美，可以说是一种澄澈与寂静的神圣。

This book is about the beauty, you could say the sanctity of clarity and silence.

这本书也探讨了这些珍宝如何在多种环境中向我们敞开，而不仅限于修道院。

It's also about how such treasures are available to us in many settings, not only monastic.

这让我真正开始思考如何在日常生活中获取这些馈赠。

And that really got me thinking about this idea of how we can access these gifts in our day to day lives.

你在书中提到，比如在拥挤的机场航站楼时，你会刻意寻找阳光下的安静角落。

And you you mentioned in the book things like when you're in a crowded airport terminal that you'll very consciously go find a quiet corner in the sun.

你能想到哪些具体方式，让我们的听众实践这种寻找宁静时刻的理念吗？

Can you think about ways that our audience can very practically take this idea of finding peaceful moments?

因为你曾提到离开修道院后，回归旧习是如此容易。

And, because you you mentioned at some point, you know, on on leaving the monastery that relapse can be so easy.

我是说，你如何真正将这种给予自己更多心灵空间的心态应用到日常生活中？

I mean, how do you actually take this this mindset of giving yourself more spaciousness and actually apply it in our day to day lives?

我不知道是否每个人都能做到，但我会建议：进行一次长途徒步，不带手机去见朋友，每天只在房间里安静坐二十分钟——不必是正式冥想，只需让自己处于这种无干扰的空间。

I don't know if everybody can manage it, but I would say take a long hike, go and see a friend without your cell phone on you, just sit quietly in your room for twenty minutes every day without any of your devices and it doesn't have to be formal meditation, but, just leave yourself in that undistracted space.

在我开始静修后不久——如果之前说过请见谅——我为自己制定了3%法则：如果每季度静修三天，这只占我生命中3%的时间，却彻底改变了另外97%的生活。

So soon after I began going on retreat, and again I apologize if I've said this to you before, I made this 3% rule for myself and I thought if I go on retreat for three days every season it's only 3% of all the days in my life but it completely transforms the other 97%.

然后我想，如果我每天在日常生活中花二十分钟什么也不做，那仅占我清醒时间的3%，但我认为它会照亮并帮助我剩余的97%清醒时光。

And then I thought, if I just spent twenty minutes every day in my day to day life doing nothing, that's only 3% of my waking day but I think it would illuminate and help the rest of my 97% of my waking days.

这些都是非常简单普遍的事情，每个人都可以做到。

So these are very simple universal things that are really available to everyone.

当你谈到我们都知道它的好处时，真正难的是付诸实践。

When you're talking about how we all know the virtue of it, it's really hard to do it.

我有时会遇到一些孩子——当然他们是我们最担心的群体，因为他们从小到大都生活在这些干扰中，并且对它们的需求越来越多——他们会告诉我，他们的父母带他们去乘游轮，或者带他们进行一周的艰苦徒步旅行，他们会说，你知道，在船上的第一天没有手机信号，无法上网。

I've sometimes met kids who of course are the ones we most worry about because they've grown up in all their lives with these distractions and expect more and more of them, and they'll tell me how their parents will take them on a cruise or they'll take them on a rigorous hike for a week and they'll say, you know, that first day on the boat there's no cell phone reception, no, I couldn't get on the internet.

这就像我生命中最糟糕的一天。

It's like the worst day of my life.

我什么都做不了，不能和朋友聊天，不能玩游戏，无法联系任何事物，就像失去了我的四肢。

I couldn't do anything, couldn't talk to my friends, couldn't play games, couldn't contact anything, it's just like losing my arms and legs.

那次航行的第二天就像是我人生中第二糟糕的日子，简直难以忍受。

And then the second day of that cruise is like the second worst day of my life, just unbearable.

我不知道该怎么办。

I didn't know what to do.

二十四小时感觉像二十四年那么漫长。

Twenty four hours felt like twenty four years.

然后那次邮轮之旅成了我度过的最美好的一周。

And then that week of the cruise was the best week I ever had.

要知道，当你熬过这种'突然戒断'的艰难阶段后，会突然记起自己一直以来缺失的东西——而我觉得这和我1991年第一次参加三日禅修时的感受别无二致，当时我只是睡在朋友家的地板上。

You know, once you get through that harshness of cold turkey, suddenly you remember what you've been missing all along, and I think it's nothing more exotic than that that happened when I first went on retreat in 1991 for three days because I was sleeping on a friend's floor.

其实我当时作为自由作家，本就过着相当清静的生活：早晨醒来，伏案写作，然后散步。虽不能说压力过大，但一到那里就仿佛记起了某种魂牵梦萦却始终无法触及的东西，这种顿悟突然让我感到生命变得完整。

You know, was leading a fairly quiet life anyway, as a self employed writer, would wake up in the morning, go to my desk and write away and then take walks, I couldn't complain of being too stressful but nonetheless as soon as I got there it was as if I remembered something I'd been longing for that I hadn't found a way to get to otherwise and it suddenly made me feel complete.

我觉得'回忆'这个词再次表明，我发现自己大部分时间都处于心猿意马的状态。

I think again that word recollection suggests that I find I'm so scattered most of the time.

而当我踏入那片寂静，当纷乱的思绪停止时，我就回归到一个完整的个体。

And as soon as I step into that silence and when my monkey mind stops, I'm brought to a point, I'm one person.

最终，在那种状态下我也重新找回了自我，这让人如释重负。

I'm finally, you know, I'm recollected in that sense too and it's such a relief.

去年我有段奇特经历——其实你也深度参与了——当时我报名参加了索南仁波切（这位伟大的藏传佛教上师，我之前向你提起过，还曾和丹·戈尔曼一起上过播客）主持的六日静修禅修营。

Last year I had this strange experience that you were very involved in actually where I had booked to go on a six day silent meditation retreat with Sopnir Rinpoche, this great Tibetan Buddhist teacher that I've mentioned to you before, who I had on the on the podcast at one point with Dan Gollman.

然后我的生活变得一团糟，因为正好赶上伯克希尔·哈撒韦年度股东大会前夕，而且我想查理·芒格刚刚去世了。

And then my life got so crazy because I had all these it it was right before the Birch Hathaway annual meeting, and I guess Charlie Munger had passed away.

所以我突然接到一大堆请求，要我做关于查理和其他各种话题的演讲。

And so I suddenly got all of these requests to give speeches about Charlie and various other things.

所以我想我实际上要在36小时内完成四场演讲，包括两场一小时的主题演讲。

And so I think I literally had four speeches to give in thirty six hours, including two one hour keynote speeches.

我当时就觉得，这太疯狂了。

And I just thought, this is insane.

我无法参加为期六天的静修，因为那基本上会在我发表这些演讲前两天才结束。

I can't go away on a six day silent retreat that would end basically, like, two days before I went to give these speeches.

你当时还稍微劝了劝我，温和地说：'实际上你可能会发现，如果你去静修并获得内心的平静，演讲效果反而会更好。'

And you kind of worked on me a little bit and said gently, well, you might find actually that you'll do a better job with the speeches if you if you go away and you have that peace of mind.

于是我近乎疯狂地做了准备，然后就去参加了这次静修。

And so I worked kinda maniacally to prepare, and then I went off on this retreat.

当我回来时，我惊讶地发现自己竟然能如此镇定清醒——某种程度上来说。

And and I was absolutely startled when I came back at how how calm and clear I was to a degree.

那是一种非常奇特的体验。

It it was sort of it was some very strange experience.

通常来说——我不知道你演讲时是否有这种感觉——但你能察觉到自己的呼吸变化或者压力状态。

It was like, usually, I don't know if you feel this when you speak, but, you know, you're you can sometimes see that your breath is different or that you're you're stressed.

而我却感受到一种超乎寻常的平静。

And I I just felt so sort of preternaturally calm.

这简直太神奇了，就像我能从大脑文件柜里调取那些平时因思绪混乱而无法获取的信息。

It was just kind of amazing, and it was like I I could retrieve stuff from filing cabinets in my brain that usually I just I wouldn't be able to retrieve because I'd be too sort of muddled headed.

最让我震惊的是，这在某种程度上让我首次意识到：六天的静默冥想不仅不会分散精力或显得自我放纵，反而可能对职业发展产生实际帮助。

And it was very striking to me that it may it was, in some ways, my first intimation that maybe this would actually be professionally beneficial, but it wouldn't actually be a distraction or an indulgence to go off and have silence and meditate for six days, but it would actually kind of help me professionally.

你对此有什么看法吗？

Do you have any thoughts about that?

有的。

I do.

嗯，我还记得那个时刻。

I mean, I remember that moment.

那是我去年做的为数不多的几件真正有意义的事情之一。

It was one of the few really good things I did last year.

我非常自豪能引导你朝那个方向发展，说实话，我猜那些聆听你的听众，从你那份宁静与清晰中获得的收获，不亚于你原本要传达的内容本身——这正是我一贯的体会。

I'm very proud that I heard you in that direction and honestly I'm guessing that the audience who listened to you really gained from that calmness and clarity as much as from the content that anyway you would have been delivering, and that's what I always find.

假如你我即将与某人打交道，而她刚经历过高峰时段的车流，同时处理着多项任务，分心于各种事务，我们能明显感觉到——这样的状态无论对她自己还是对我们都毫无益处。

If you or I are about to deal with somebody and she comes into the room and she's just been driving through rush hour traffic and she's multitasking and doing a 100 things, she's really, we can tell she's not much good to us or to herself.

反之，如果我们遇到同一个人，而她刚刚在房间里静坐了二十分钟，那么她走进房间时带着的那份宁静与清晰，会立即对她自身和我们产生巨大的积极影响。

And conversely, if we meet that same person and she's just spent twenty minutes sitting quietly in her room, she comes into the room with a calmness and a clarity that instantly is hugely beneficial to us as well as to herself.

知道吗，我有个在谷歌的朋友每周都会给自己安排一小时‘与自己会面’的时间，他明白只有安静独处一小时，才能为其他会议带来有价值的内容。

Know, have a friend at Google who makes appointments with himself every week for one hour he meets himself, knowing this only by taking an hour quietly with himself he has anything to bring to his other meetings.

所以你刚才讲述的就是个绝佳例证。我认为每当我们说‘没时间做某事’时，恰恰证明生活已失控，我们需要采取激烈措施重掌控制权——通常这意味着要留出时间，在我看来，什么都不做的时间。

So it's a that's what you've just told is a perfect example and I think anytime we say I don't have time for something, it's proof that our lives are out of control and we need to do something dramatic to put them into control, and what that usually means is taking time, I would say, to do nothing.

有个关于圣雄甘地的经典故事：他每天雷打不动冥想一小时。有天醒来他说‘今天实在太忙，没时间冥想一小时’，所有追随者都震惊不已。

You know there's this great story of how Mahatma Gandhi used to meditate for an hour every day, and one day he woke up and he said, I've got a really, really busy day, I'm not going to be able to meditate for an hour, and all his friends and followers were really startled.

结果他说‘正因为今天太忙，我必须冥想两小时’。

And this is a really busy day, I've got to meditate for two hours.

那么是什么智慧呢？

And what wisdom?

我知道你的演讲因为那六天的静修而精彩得多，我也知道你总是行程满满，越是忙碌的时候，你越需要去静修，我这么有把握地对你说这些，因为这也是我经常对自己说的话。

I know that your speech was so much better for doing the six days on retreat and I know that you've always got a very very busy schedule, and the more busy it is the more imperative it is for you to go on retreat, and that's I say that to you with such confidence because that's what I'm always saying to myself too.

我通常也处于同样的状态，我能理解，这就是为什么硅谷那么多人通过静修或冥想来提高工作效率。

I'm usually in that same state and I can see that, yes, that's why so many people in Silicon Valley use retreats or meditation in order to become more productive.

当然，佛教导师会像梭罗那样说：这是通往未改善目标的改良手段。

And of course Buddhist teachers would say, as Thoreau did, that's an improved means to an unimproved end.

换句话说，如果目标仅仅是让你变得更富有或更狂热，那可能并非这个过程的全部意义。

In other words, if the goal only is to make you even richer or more fanatical than you were before, maybe that's not the whole point of the procedure.

但我认为那六天的修行确实让你变得更智慧、更快乐，这意味着你的听众也因此比原本状态更智慧、更快乐——尽管你讲述的内容可能完全相同。

But I feel that really that six day treat was making you wiser and happier, which means that your audience was wiser and happier than it would have been otherwise, even though maybe the words you were delivering would be exactly the same.

因为通过这么多场演讲你肯定明白，在某种程度上听众与其说在听内容，不如说在感受表达方式，真正影响他们的是演讲者的存在状态。

Because you know from delivering so many lectures that at some level the audience isn't so much listening to what you say as how you say it, and what they're really being affected by is presence.

这就是为什么当仁波切登上讲台，用非常简单的话语轻声开示时（甚至可能是蹩脚的英语），却能直击心灵；而埃隆·马斯克可以滔滔不绝自信满满地演讲，却可能留不下任何深刻印象。

Which is why when a Rinpoche goes on to stage and speaks very quietly in very simple terms, in perhaps broken English, it sometimes goes right through us, And Elon Musk can get on the stage and speak with great fluency in confidence about many things and it makes no impression at all.

那么我们该如何培养这种我们如此钦佩他人的存在感呢？

So how do we develop that presence that we admire so much in others?

因为这和我们之前讨论的问题有些不同，但我认为当今世界正渴求智慧。

Because this is a different issue a little from what we've been discussing, but I think the world is crying out for wisdom now.

我们不知道在领导层中该去哪里寻找深度和指引。

We don't know where to find depth and guidance in our our leadership.

这就是我认为莱昂纳德·科恩在晚年如此受欢迎的一个原因。

That's one reason I think Leonard Cohen became so popular in his last years.

Xpiegel感觉到那里确实有人过着深刻而反思的生活，但在我们的公共领域却很少见到这种品质，而我们对此如饥似渴。

Xpiegel sensed that there was somebody there who really, did live a life of of of depth and reflection, and but we don't see much of it in our public sphere, and we're hungering for it.

这里面有太多值得剖析的内容。

There's there's so much to unpack there.

我是说，我认为我参加的这次静修——过去几年我做过很多次——其中一个重要启示就是：它应该能消除我们许多人的恐惧，即如果我们不再拼命奔跑，就会在某种程度上失去优势。

I mean, I I think one one great lesson of my that retreat that I did, I've done a bunch in the last couple of years, was just that I I think it should allay the fear that a lot of us have that in some way we'll lose our edge if we stop running as fast as we possibly can.

可能恰恰相反。

It it may be the opposite.

但后来发生另一件事，因为那次静修是如此美妙的体验，我便问我26岁的儿子亨利：你愿意和我一起参加索古鲁仁波切的六日禁语禅修吗？

But then another thing that happened, because that retreat was such a beautiful experience, I then said to my son, Henry, who's 26, would you ever go on a six day silent meditation retreat with Soguru Rinpoche?

他说：我愿意和你一起去。这对一个儿子来说简直难以置信，我当即放下了一切。

And he said, I'd go with you, which was such an unbelievable thing for your son to say that I actually dropped everything.

于是在第一次静修约两个月后，我去了英格兰，和他又参加了一次六日禅修，因为索南仁波切将在那里授课。

And so two months or so after that first retreat, I went to England, and I went on another six day retreat with him because that was where Sobhne was gonna be teaching.

通常我在禁语禅修中并不怎么安静。

And usually, I'm not very silent on silent retreats.

我是那种最不擅长保持沉默的人。

I'm the sort of least capable of being silent of everyone.

不知为何，大家总会来找我说话。

And everyone, for some reason, comes and talks to me.

可能这就是当记者的宿命吧。

I I maybe it's just being a journalist.

我也...说不清楚。

Like like, I I don't know.

人们总会跟我倾诉。

People tell me stuff.

但在那次静修中，亨利和我真的保持了沉默。

But on that retreat, Henry and I really stayed quiet.

你在书里提到过与某人安静共进餐食带来的亲密感。

And you you talk in your book about the intimacy of meals where you're quiet with someone.

那是我多年来最快乐的体验之一，与深爱的儿子共处，却不能对他训诫或提建议。

And it was one of the most joyful experiences I've had in years to be there with my son who I love dearly, and I couldn't lecture him or give him advice.

所以我们只是坐在那里，享受着彼此的陪伴。

And so we just sat there kind of loving being with each other.

我认为这种无法言说的亲密与欢愉，有种近乎本能的体验——显然你已多次体会过。

And so there's something there's something almost visceral I think you have to experience that you've obviously experienced so many times about that in intimacy and joy of not being able to speak.

是的。

Yes.

所以我在想，你知道吗？

And so I feel, oh, you know, what?

如你所知，我有幸在五十年间游历世界各地，所以我总是和那些非凡的朋友们分享去埃塞俄比亚或南极洲等地的经历，而这次静修与之相当。

I've been lucky enough to travel a lot around the world for fifty years as you know, and so I'm always sharing with my friends who are so remarkable to go to Ethiopia or Antarctica or wherever it is, and this is the equivalent.

这可能是我一生中经历过最激动人心的冒险之一，尽管我并非宗教信徒，所以我告诉朋友们：你们生活中也有类似的体验，或许你们会同样享受。

This is one of the probably the most exciting adventure I've undertaken in my life, even though I'm not a religious being, and so I say to my friends there's some equivalent in your life and maybe you'll enjoy it just as much.

威廉，我正要问你的问题是：尽管有时艰难甚至动荡，但你是否可以说从未后悔参加过的任何一次静修？

The question I was just going to ask you William is, is it fair to say, however sometimes difficult and even maybe tumultuous they've been, you've never regretted one of the retreats you've taken?

不后悔。

No.

它们确实是最美好的经历。

They've really been the best thing.

是不可思议的体验。

Been an amazing thing.

而且我...是的。

And I yeah.

这是一份珍贵的礼物。

It's been a it's been a great gift.

而且实际上，我已经在计划今年夏天的下一次静修了。

And and, actually, I'm I'm already figuring out, you know, the next retreat that I'm gonna go on this summer.

所以，是的，我觉得一旦你体验过，就会开始——我是说，你看。

So, yeah, I think once you taste it, you start to I mean, look.

这并不适合所有人，但我觉得这引出了一个问题：如何创造一种生活，让你能优化那些对你真正深具价值的事物。

It's it's not for everyone, but I think it goes to this question of how do you create a life that's where you're optimizing what's really deeply valuable to you.

书中有一段让我深受触动，你写到伯德上将前往极地时，在小屋里被困了大约五个月，然后意识到平静的重要性——我们真正追求的其实是内心的平静。

I was very struck by there was a there was a was a wonderful passage in the book where you were writing about, I think it was was it admiral Byrd going off to the to the pole or whatever and getting getting stuck for something like five months in his in his hut and realizing the importance of of peace, that really what we were after was peace.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

这段话很美。

It's a lovely quote.

就是这段。

Here it is.

他前往南极，你在书中写道，在他的小屋里，他逐渐认识到成功或许可以换一个词——内心的平静，那种从无休止奋斗中解脱出来的自由。

He goes to the South Pole, and you write, in his little cell, he came to see that success might be another word peace and peace at heart for freedom from ceaseless striving.

而我想这正是我在思考的问题。

And I think that's sort of what I'm wondering.

你是否开始觉得，或许我们对无休止奋斗的执着完全是错误的？

Like, have you started to think that maybe we've kind of got it completely wrong with our just obsession with ceaseless striving?

毕竟你自己工作起来也非常拼命。

Because you work incredibly hard yourself.

我是说，你已经写了17本书，还在母亲年老需要大量照顾时努力支持她。

I mean, you've written 17 books, and you've you've worked to help support your mom when she was elderly and needed lots of care.

所以，你确实经历过不少奋斗，但我们的理解是否完全错了？

And so, I mean, you you did plenty of striving, but have we got it have we got it totally wrong?

嗯，其实我认为历史上的智者们都完全理解对了。

Well, actually, I think the wise souls throughout history have got it totally right.

无论是老子、佛陀、马可·奥勒留还是梭罗，他们从未为无休止的奋斗代言过。

And they've never whether it's Lao Tzu or the Buddha or Marcus Aurelius or Thoreau they've never spoken in on behalf of ceaseless striving.

他们始终在全世界每一种传统中都谈论着相反的道理。

They've always spoken about the opposite in every single tradition in the world.

所以是的，我认为气喘吁吁地追赶毫无意义。

So yes, I that there's nothing to be gained by being out of breath.

早些时候你说过——我完全同意——当世界加速时，你越是试图跟上节奏，如今反而会落后得更多。

I mean earlier you were I would agree with you that the more you try to keep up with the moment as the world accelerates, the further behind you're going to fall these days.

因此你必须找到某种方式让自己脱离这种匆忙。

So you have to find some way to separate yourself from the rush.

你在书中引用的那句话，近五十年来一直是我的护身符——来自梭罗的'简化，再简化'。

I mean, in your book you quote, a sentence that's been my talisman for fifty years almost now, from the rather simplify, simplify.

伯德上将就这样在南极附近独自坚持了五个月，几乎濒临死亡。

And so Admiral Byrd stuck for five months alone, very close to death, near the South Pole.

他过着最简单、最极简的生活。

He was living in the simplest, most uncluttered existence possible.

这位曾与罗斯福总统交好的显赫人物，是历史上唯一在纽约城举行过三次彩带游行欢迎的人。

And this was an incredible dignitary who was a friend of president Rooseveltson, was the only human in history to have three ticker tape parades through New York City.

因此他是世界上最杰出的人物之一。

So he's one of the most eminent men of the world.

他突然间身处荒芜之地。

He's suddenly in the middle of nowhere.

然后他意识到，我此刻所拥有的已足够，实际上，只要能看到洞口透进的光线、能阅读书籍、有足够食物保障反思的时间，这就是我全部所需。我想这再次证明，困境会提醒我们所需何其少，而‘足够’之中又能发现何其多。

And then he realizes I don't need more than I have right now, and actually, you know, just to be able to see the light through the hole and to read my books and to have time for reflection so long as I have enough food is all I want and I think again it's an instance in which necessity reminds us how little we need and how much we can find in just having enough.

而那些杂乱，我指的是我脑海中和书桌上的杂乱，意味着我无法区分琐事与要务。

And that the clutter, I mean I find it's the clutter in my head and the clutter in my desk which means I can't sift the trivial from the essential.

我脑子里有千头万绪，桌上有堆积如山的文件，当山火逼近房屋时，我反而找不到真正重要的东西——因为杂物实在太多了。

I've got a thousand things on my mind, a thousand pieces of paper on my desk, and when the forest fire roars towards the house I can't put my hands on what's essential because there's too much there.

而这就是静修能帮助我解决的问题。

And that's what going on retreat helps me to do.

永远记住，这是最重要的事，我需要把它放在首位，其他一切都可以暂且放下。

Just always keep in mind that this is the important thing that I need to have at the top of the pile, on the top of my mind and the rest can pretty much fall away.

我很喜欢你提到已经为明年夏天安排了静修，因为我发现知道前方有这样的可能——哪怕只是可能性——就能改变我的每一天，特别是在那些忙碌又充满压力的日子里，这对我而言是一种释放和解脱。

And I loved what you said about already scheduling retreat for next summer because I found that it is such a release and a liberation for me that just to know that I've got this in the horizon or that it's a possibility transforms my days, especially sometimes when the days are very busy and stressful.

你说我很勤奋，某种程度上确实如此，但部分原因是我来到这个与世隔绝的小公寓，身处异国他乡语言不通的环境。如果我醒来后工作八小时（我确实这么做），就能换来八小时自由——散步、参观奈良寺庙、陪伴妻子、看电影、去健身俱乐部，每天八小时不间断的愉悦时光，所以并不觉得辛苦。

I mean you kindly said that I work very hard, which is true to some extent, but it's partly a result of coming to this little flat in the middle of nowhere in a language in a country where I don't speak the language, where if I work for eight hours as soon as I wake up, which I do, I then got eight hours free just to take walks and see the temples of Nara and hang out with my wife and see movies and go to the health club and eight hours of sort of uninterrupted pleasure every day, so it doesn't feel like hard work.

而回想在纽约时，我可能每天只完成三小时有效工作，却要在办公室耗上十六小时。

Whereas I think when I was in New York City I was probably getting three hours of work done every day but I was spending sixteen hours a day in the office.

于是我决定与其每天花十六小时只完成三小时工作，不如独自前往偏僻处，每天专注八小时完成八小时工作量，然后无忧无虑享受剩余时光。

So I decided rather than spending sixteen hours every day to get three hours of work done, I will go off by myself one:thirty and do eight hours every day and get eight hours done and then enjoy the rest of my time unencumbered.

我们稍事休息

Let's take a quick break

听听今天赞助商的消息。

and hear from today's sponsors.

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That's the story behind Alexa and AWS AI.

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Every day, Alexa processes over 1,000,000,000 interactions across 17 languages, all while reducing customer friction by 40%.

这不仅仅是让生活更便捷，更是关于重塑客户互动并创造新的收入来源。

It's not just about making life easier, it's also about transforming customer engagement and generating new revenue streams.

在幕后，AWS AI驱动着70多个专业模型协同工作，创造自然对话，展示了企业如何能规模化部署AI并确保安全可靠。

Behind the scenes, AWS AI powers more than 70 specialized models working together to create natural conversations, proving how enterprises can deploy AI at scale with confidence and security.

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Alexa's AI capabilities were battle tested across Amazon's massive operations, delivering real measurable impact at scale.

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探索Alexa的故事，请访问aws.comai/rstory。

Discover the Alexa story at aws.comai/rstory.

网址是aws.com/ai/rstory。

That's aws.com/ai/rstory.

年少时，我们总梦想成为各种角色——宇航员、总统或是王子。

When we were young, we used to dream of being anything, an astronaut, the president, a prince.

但随着年龄增长，梦想会转变，从统治世界转向如何将技能与想法转化为现实。

But as you get older, your dreams change, focusing less on running the world and more on how you can take your skills and ideas and turn them into something real.

与其梦想遨游太空或拥有自己的城堡，也许你开始梦想拥有自己的事业。

Instead of dreaming of going to space or owning your own castle, maybe you start dreaming of owning your own business.

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You'll need a website, a payment system, a logo, and a way to advertise to new customers.

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从美泰、Gymshark这样的家喻户晓品牌，到像我这样刚刚起步的品牌。

From household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands like mine that are still getting started.

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这是shopify.com/wsb。

That's shopify.com/wsb.

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Startups move fast.

借助人工智能，它们的交付速度更快，能更早吸引企业买家。

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但大额交易会带来更大的安全和合规要求。

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恰当的安全措施可能促成交易，也可能毁掉交易。

The right kind of security can make a deal or break it.

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好的。

Alright.

回到节目。

Back to the show.

你如何看待作为一个作家和演说家，如何获得成功与名声这一系列问题？

How do you think about this whole issue of kind of achieving success and fame and all of that as a as a writer and speaker?

因为你在书中写到早期你希望与众不同、独具一格，后来又描述遇到那些你所说的'致力于隐形'的僧侣。

Because you you write in the book about how in the early days you wanted to be different and original, and then you write about how you come across these monks who have committed to being invisible as you put it.

所以你似乎有一部分被这种消解自我、消除自我的可能性所吸引。

And so there's a part of you that seems to be captivated by the possibility of sort of erasing the self, the ego.

但另一方面你又完全活在喧嚣尘世中，努力谋生、奋力打拼、积累追随者。

And then there's a part of you that's very much out on Boogie Street, right, that's trying to make a living, trying to hustle, trying to build a following.

我记得上次查看时，你的TED演讲观看量已达一千两三百万人次。

I think mean, last time I checked, your TED talks have been viewed like twelve, thirteen million times.

我的意思是，你是个相当有名气的人。

I mean, it's you're a very well known guy.

你如何调和这两种矛盾冲动：一方面在世俗中建立成功事业并影响大众，另一方面又意识到自我是敌人并渴望消解自我？

How do you reconcile those conflicting urges to be sort of in the world building a successful career and having an impact on a lot of people and your awareness that in some way ego is the enemy and you wanna kind of dissolve, the ego?

是啊。

Yeah.

同样，就像你之前关于布吉街的问题一样，我并不认为这是矛盾的。

Again, as as with your earlier question about Bookie Street, I don't see it as a contradiction.

换句话说，我觉得我花越多时间在隐居处闭关，或只是安静地在日本生活，我能与世界分享的内容就越丰富。

In other words, I feel the more time I can spend either on retreat in my hermitage or just living in my quiet life in Japan, the richer is the stuff I can share with the world.

现在，我有了所需的所有钱，这里的月租是500美元，我完全负担得起，所以我不需要更多钱了。

Now, and I've got all the money I need, my rent here is $500 a month, I can still afford that, so it's not as if I need much more money.

如果我希望我的书对人们有吸引力，那么我需要尽可能多的时间远离尘嚣，不在布吉街上。

And if I want my books to be interesting to people, then I need to spend as much time as possible just in the middle of nowhere, not on Boogie Street.

所以实际上你的闭关故事是个完美例子，威廉，你被邀请去演讲，听众可能是很多现实世界的投资者。

So actually your retreat story is a perfect example, that you, William, were asked to give a talk, probably to a lot of investors who are very real world people.

而你能做到最好的方式就是去闭关。

And the best way that you could do that was by going on retreat.

这样做的成果是，当你出关时，如你所说，你更平静、更清晰，而且我猜你对听众没有企图心。

And then the fruit of that is that when you, William, came out, as you said, you were calmer and clearer and you didn't have, I'm guessing, designs on the audience.

你并不是试图打动他们。

You weren't trying to impress them.

你并不希望他们离开时想着'威廉真棒，格林太出色了，我必须读他的书'。

You weren't wanting them to go away thinking oh William's great, Green is fantastic and I've got to read his book.

实际上，我想你可能早已把自我抛在脑后——它可能被遗落在静修处的某个角落了。

You actually, I think you probably left your ego far behind wherever it got this, you know, thrown in the corner in the retreat.

你知道吗，我欣赏的大多数作家，某种程度上我之所以回应他们，是因为我能感觉到他们对我毫无企图。

And you know, I think most of the writers I admire, some level I'm responding to them because I can tell they have no designs on me.

你看，如果舞台上两个人，一个拼命讨好观众想留下好印象，另一个像西藏喇嘛般毫不在意是否有人离场——我猜我们都会被喇嘛吸引。

You know, if you and I see two people on stage and one of them is really trying to play to the crowd and make a good impression and the other is like a Tibetan monk and not even caring whether people are walking out, will be drawn to the Tibetan monk, I suspect.

我认为文字创作也是同样的道理。

And I think it's the same same on the page.

因此即便从这个角度看，自我意识也只会适得其反，因为它横亘在作家与读者之间，阻隔了作家与世界的联系。

So even in that regard, I think ego is going to be counterproductive because that's what comes between the writer and the reader and it comes between the writer and the world.

记得有人曾用绝妙的比喻说过：自我就像个胖子，会挡在你观看赛马的位置前——你知道的，有他在场就毫无乐趣可言。

You know, she used to race through it in his wonderful way, said the ego is like a fat man who will stand in front of you at a horse race, which is you know, taking all the fun out of life if he's there.

所以摆脱他符合我们自身利益，这样突然之间我们就能享受比赛，不再把自己看得太重了。

So it's in our own interest to get rid of him because then suddenly we can enjoy the race and not take ourselves so seriously.

你知道，再次抱歉经常提到你的书，但我感觉《更富有、更智慧、更快乐》中的一个主题是，几乎所有你采访的人都将其视为某种游戏，这意味着他们不会太过认真对待，并保持一定程度的超脱，我认为这实际上正是他们能取得部分成功的原因。

You know, again, sorry to bring it so often back to your book, but I felt that one of the motifs in Richer, Wiser, Happier was that nearly everyone you talk to regards it to some level as a game, which means they're not taking it too seriously, and there's some degree of detachment from it, and that's what allows them actually to be, I think, partly so successful.

在我看来，某种程度上他们的自我似乎并未过多参与其中。

I read it as in some ways their ego didn't seem so much involved.

他们对这个过程充满兴趣，而且当他们真正致富后，许多人将财富用于慈善事业，所以他们并不是想要第六辆法拉利，尽管有些人会很高兴拥有一辆法拉利并对现有法拉利感到满足，但他们认为自己不需要接下来的五辆。

They were fascinated by the process, and when they did get rich many of them were using it for philanthropic purposes, so it wasn't as if they wanted to get their sixth Ferrari, though some of them would be happy to have one Ferrari and were very glad of the Ferrari they had, but they thought they didn't need their next five.

但如果你将其视为游戏，那么你的自我参与度会低得多，对每个人而言结果可能会好很多。

But if you think of it as a game, then your ego is going to be much less involved, and the results for everyone are probably going to be a lot better.

所以，我认为如果我现在还住在纽约市，做着那些可能帮助书籍获得认可的事情，坦白说这本书会逊色很多，也不会是我所尊重的作品。

So, you know, I think if I were if I was still living in New York City and doing the kind of things that might help get a book win recognition, the book would be much weaker, frankly, and wouldn't be one that I respect.

而且，在我的职业生涯中，我写过一些相当成功但我完全不尊重的书。

And, you know, over the course of my career I've written some books that are quite successful that I don't respect at all.

因为我认为它们写得非常仓促，可以被快速阅读和消化，就像任何人都可能在五分钟内给人留下耀眼印象一样。

Because I think they're written very quickly and can be read and taken in very quickly just the way anyone probably can make a dazzling impression for five minutes.

但作为一名作家，你真正想做的是引导某人进入一场亲密而脆弱的对话，让她在离开后长时间思考，不一定想着'哇，那家伙真棒'，而是想着'哦，是的，我内心某扇门被打开了，让我看看它会带我去哪里'。

But as a writer, the thing you really want to do is engage somebody in an intimate vulnerable conversation where she goes away and thinks about it for a long time afterward, and not necessarily thinking wow, that was a great guy, but thinking oh yeah, some door has opened inside me and let's see where it takes me.

因为这也是我喜欢的书。

Because those are the books that I like too.

实际上，我觉得这是你七八本书中我读过的最袒露心扉、最个人化，在某种程度上也是最勇敢的一本。

I actually felt this was the most vulnerable of the seven or eight books of yours that I've read and the most personal and and in some ways the most courageous.

有件事我想说——我一直很喜欢你的作品，但就像我之前跟你提过的，有时觉得你在书中是个非常神秘的人。

There was something I I mean, I've always loved your writing, but I sometimes as I as I said to you before, sometimes feel like you are a very enigmatic man in your books.

总有种刻意隐藏的感觉。

There's something very concealed.

而这次，你在某种程度上非常大方地展现了自己。

And here, you're very generous in exposing yourself in a way.

我...我在想，你这样做是经过深思熟虑的，还是其实也害怕这样袒露，因为这本书明显更私密了。

I I was wondering if you were very consciously doing that or if you were scared of doing it because there's something much more intimate about the book.

是啊。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我试图...我尝试了很多事情。

I was I was trying for it to I was trying for many things.

正如你所见，我写得很慢，试图将可怜的读者从匆忙与加速中解救出来，几乎迫使你回到人类的节奏。

I as you see, I wrote it for in a very slow way to try to rescue the poor reader from the rush and acceleration so that you're forced almost back to a human pace.

阅读这本书时你是在漫步，而非像往常那样匆忙追赶。

You're walking when you read this book rather than racing to keep up the way you would otherwise.

所以某种程度上是试图将读者带回她或他内心某个平静、寂静而广阔的土地。

So it's partly trying to bring the reader back to some calm and silent and spacious land within herself or himself.

关于你之前提到的自我问题，我们越是深入自己的内心，就越能与他人共享。

And I mean to speak to your earlier question about ego, the deeper we go inside ourselves, the more we share with everybody else.

所以在某种程度上，你知道，我在书中不断强调，当我在小房间里写日记时，我很确定当时住在那里的人有一半正在写下完全相同的句子。

So at some level, you know, keep stressing in the book that when I'm in my little cell and I'm scribbling away in my diary, I'm pretty sure that half the people who are also staying on the property at that time are scribbling exactly the same sentences.

换句话说，我们从个体中解放出来，某种程度上正在消融。

In other words, we're freed from our individuality and we're sort of crumbling.

我们属于某个更大的整体，我们为某个集体整体发声。

We're part of some larger whole, and we're speaking for some collective whole.

这就是为什么如果你读一本诗歌或智慧选集，其中很多都出自名为'无名氏'的作者。

Which is why if you read an anthology of poetry or wisdom, so much of it comes from the author named Anonymous.

所以在某种程度上，这本书本可以由'无名氏'所写，我是这么觉得的。

And so at some level this this book could have been written by Anonymous, I felt.

我的意思是，我并非用个人特质或表面形象来吸引读者或给读者留下印象，而是试图触及我内心那部分威廉会立即认出也是他自己的一部分。

So I'm in the sense that I'm not using the sort of particulars and surface of me to engage the reader or to make an impression on the reader but I'm trying to come to that part of me which William would instantly recognise as part of himself.

是的，我认为我们谈论的很多内容都关乎美——正如我所说，对我而言静修的意义就是从那个小我中解脱出来，感受到某种更宏大、更永恒的存在。

And yes, think I think lots of what we've been speaking about has to do with the beauty as I say for me of going on retreat is being released from that individual self to a sense of something much larger and much more lasting.

这就是为什么我发现在此处的时光让我对死亡不再那么恐惧——我不再执着于那个脆弱的、简历上的'皮卡瓦亚'小我（反正也活不了多少年了），而是更倾向于成为这个永恒景观的一部分，那由岩石、海洋和天空组成的景观将长久存在。

And that's why one of the things that I found as a result of spending time in this place is it's made me much less scared of death because I'm less caught up in the fragile little, you know, Resume self called Pikawaya who's not gonna last many more years anyway, and I'm much more part of this large landscape, literally a landscape of of rock and ocean and and sky that is going to last for a long long time.

比如当我父亲去世时，在那个需要照顾母亲、应付无数事务的忙碌时刻，我唯一能想到的就是在母亲有人照料时，驱车三个半小时去那个寂静之地，对着大海静坐两小时，凝视那些看似不变、比我们渺小希望与计划更恒久的事物，然后再驱车返回。

And when my father died, for example, only thing I could think to do in this very busy moment when I had to look after my mother and 10 to a thousand obligations was one day when my mother was being looked after, to drive three and a half hours just to sit for two hours in that silent place looking at the ocean, remembering what doesn't seem to change and what outlasts our little hopes and plans, and then drive all the way back.

这...这让我们离你的问题很远了。

That's a that's taking us a long way from your question.

所以我认为这是一本更...更私密的书。

So I think it is a much more it's a more intimate book.

要知道，我一直钟爱俳句，因为它们极具个人色彩却又与个性毫无关联。

You know, what I I've always loved haiku because they're deeply personal but they have nothing to do with personality.

典型的俳句会这样写：雪落雁飞空寂道，诸如此类。

You know, a typical haiku will say snow falling, the geese are flying an empty road, something like that.

你能感受到其中蕴含的浓烈情感，但这些情感与叙述者本人无关。

So you can feel how much emotion there is in that but it's nothing about the speaker.

它真正邀请你进入的是一个共有的空间。

He's really admitting you to a shared space.

就我而言，这本书有点像一系列俳句的集合，它的期许在于——虽然非常个人化，却与那种浮于表面的个性特质毫无瓜葛。

And insofar as this book feels to me a little like a series of haiku, it is the hope is that it's it's very personal but in a way that has nothing to do with the with the kind of froth of personality.

嗯。

Yeah.

这确实是一本非常美的书。

It's it's it's really a beautiful book.

我确信它会经久不衰，因为我肯定会反复阅读。我想其中一个原因是你在处理这些我们都挣扎其中、却常常想要回避的普世议题。

I I mean, I'm certain that it'll endure because I'm certain I'll go back and read it multiple times, and I I think one of the reasons is that you're also dealing with these very universal issues that that all of us wrestle with, but maybe often we want to avert our eyes from them.

你之前提到的整个问题，比如我们上次在播客中聊到的火灾，这个美丽的修道院时刻处于危险之中，这种感觉确实令人印象深刻。

And and so this whole issue that you mentioned before, for example, of the fires, which we spoke about, I think, on the podcast last time we chatted, it's a it's a it's a one you know, this sense that the that this beautiful place, this monastery is constantly in jeopardy.

这是关于不确定性、不可预测性、脆弱性和易损性的绝妙隐喻。

It's a wonderful metaphor for uncertainty and unpredictability and fragility and vulnerability.

我想请你谈谈这个，因为我们上次一起上播客时可能讨论过，处理不确定性的理念对投资者和所有人来说都至关重要。

And I wonder if you could talk about that because I think as I think we probably spoke about last time we were on the podcast together, this idea of dealing with uncertainty is so central for investors and for everyone else.

对吧？

Right?

我们生活的这个世界，就像你发现的那样，当你第一次去修道院时，正是因为一场大火刚刚摧毁了你的家。

We we we live in this world where, as as you found, you know, when you first went to the monastery, it was because a fire had just destroyed your home.

所以关于僧人如何应对无常、应对不确定性的问题，我很想探讨一下，因为你在书中分享了关于接受万物无常、未来不可知的深刻智慧。

And so this question of how the, how the monks deal with impurn with impermanence, deal with uncertainty, I'd I'd love to explore that a little because I think there's great there's great wisdom that you're sharing in the book about just dealing with with the fact that nothing's gonna last, and that we have no idea what's gonna happen next.

是的。

Yes.

而且这世上绝对没有任何保证。

And that there are absolutely no guarantees.

我可能在我们上次交谈时说过这一点，但我一直深受感动的是，教皇方济各从不祈求答案。

And again, I may have said this when last we spoke, but I've always been touched that Pope Francis doesn't pray for answers.

他祈求的是面对无解之境仍能勇敢生活的勇气，因为我们所有人都时刻生活在无解之中。

He prays for the courage to live with answerlessness, because that's where we're all living round the clock, with answerlessness.

疫情再次如此强烈地让我们领悟到这个普遍且亘古不变的真理：我们永远无法预知明天。

And again it came home to us so forcibly in the pandemic, the universal and changeless truth that we never know what's going to happen tomorrow.

事实上我曾想用一尊经典佛像作为书的封面——佛陀端坐火焰中央，因为本书的核心问题正是你刚才提出的时代之问：如何在不确定中保持平静。

And in fact at one point I wanted as a cover of the book one of those classic statues of the Buddha sitting surrounded by flames, because the central question of the book is the central question of the age that you just posed: how to live calmly in the midst of uncertainty.

当然，僧侣们拥有强大的信仰——我认为这才是真正帮助他们度过难关的力量——以及严格的戒律。

And of course the monks have big faith which is I think what really helps them through many things and they have great discipline.

但我想自己受此地吸引的原因之一在于：这是个传承千年的教团，他们的戒律与日常经受住了数世纪以来无数瘟疫、战乱、动荡、地震与大火的考验。

But I think one of the reasons I was drawn to this place is that it's a thousand year old order, and so their discipline and routine has withstood any number of plagues and warfares and tumults and earthquakes and fires through centuries.

我向来不太倾心于以某个人物或某种教义为中心的精神圣地，因为我总觉得凡人终有一死且难免谬误，也不愿去被告知'此即真理'的场所。

And I've never been much drawn to a spiritual center that's based around one human or based around some teaching because I always feel that a human is mortal and infallible and I don't want to go to a place where I'm being told this teaching is the way.

而当我来到此处，正如我所说，这里既无戒规也无期待，无人被要求参加任何仪式。

And when I go to this place, as I say, there are no rules and no expectations, nobody's asked to attend any of the services.

但我只是感觉自己是这个循环的一部分——自1012年圣罗穆阿尔德创立特库马尔迪修会以来，这个循环就一直在持续，它已被证明能够经受住世间的诸多变迁。

But I just feel I'm part of the cycle that's been going on since Saint Romual founded Tecumaldi's order in the year 10/12, that has been found to be able to withstand the many vicissitudes of the world.

当我回想时，书中对我而言的关键时刻之一，是在我们重建了被森林大火烧毁的房子后，又不得不一次次撤离，因为我们在加利福尼亚山区自找麻烦，火焰几乎常年不断，而且每年都在加剧。

And when I think back on it I think one of the critical moments in the book for me is when at one point we've rebuilt our house after that terrible forest fire and we have to evacuate it again, again and again because we're up in the hills of California asking for trouble, and flames are more or less perpetual, certainly increasing every year.

所以我们不得不逃离家园，像上次房子烧毁后那样暂住在城里。

So we have to run out of our house and stay downtown just as we were staying after our previous house burnt down.

同时我在报纸上看到，大苏尔的朋友们不得不撤离他们的修道院，而我的避难所、我的圣地似乎也即将被火焰吞噬。

And at the same time I see in the newspaper my friends in Big Sur have had to evacuate their monastery and my refuge, my sanctuary looks as if it's about to go out in flames.

我不知所措，有天早晨走到门外，不知道是否该抬头望向山间我们房子的方向——因为可能抬头望去会发现那里已空无一物。

And I don't know what to do and I step outside one morning and I don't know whether I want to look up into the hills where our house is meant to be or not to look up because I may look up and see there's nothing there.

我能怎么办呢？

So what can I do?

我真的不知道明天是否还有家可归，甚至不知道下周是否还有修道院可回。

I'm literally, I don't know if I'll have a home to go back to tomorrow and I don't even know if I'll have a monastery to go back to next week.

于是我想起家乡山顶有个天主教静修院，一个圣公会静修院，那里同样能俯瞰太平洋的壮丽景色。

And so I remember that there was a Catholic retreat house, an Anglican retreat house in my hometown up on the top of the mountain again with a beautiful view over the Pacific Ocean.

那里距离我住的地方只有十五分钟车程，于是我开车前往，走进花园，再次感受到那种纯净无瑕的宁静，令人彻底解脱。

It's fifteen minutes away from where I was staying so I drive up there and I step into the garden and again the silence is immaculate, absolutely liberating.

我看着飞机飞向火场试图控制火势，同时眺望远处的海平面。

And I see the planes flying over to where the fires are trying to contain them and I look out on the ocean in the distance.

我真的感到焕然一新，感谢上苍在如此恐惧焦虑的时刻，仍有这样宁静的所在能给予我信心。

I really do feel renewed and restored and thank heavens there's this quiet place that can give me confidence at a time of great fear and anxiety.

后来我回归日常生活，最终修道院和我的房子都得以保全，但就在同一年，五个月后的下一场山火中，我家乡那个曾给予我庇护的圣地却被烧成了灰烬。

And then I go back into my life and as it turns out the monastery is saved and my house is saved but that very same year the sanctuary which I'd gone to in my hometown burnt to the ground five months later in the next phar.

从某种角度说，这些山火是在警醒我们：不要认为任何事物都是理所当然的，要把每一天当作最后一天来活，并记住什么对我们真正重要、什么才是真正的支撑。

And so in certain ways these phars are doing a good thing by just reminding us not to take anything for granted, to live each day as if it may be our last, and to remember what's important to us and what is really sustaining.

因为明天我们可能就会失去一切——如果你居住的地方没有山火，也可能遭遇飓风、洪水，或是其他时刻都在重塑这个世界的力量。

Because we could be stripped of anything tomorrow and if it's not far where you're living it could be hurricane or flood or all the things that are rewriting the world every moment.

当然，如果你住在加州，很快就会明白火灾本就是自然循环的一部分。

And of course if you live in California you quickly see that fire is part of the natural cycle.

正如你精辟指出的，植被和树木没有火就无法生存，于是问题就变成了：我们该如何与火共存？

So literally the vegetation and trees can't live without the fire and then the question becomes as you said perfectly how do we live with the fire?

威廉，你知道吗，和你在一起我感觉特别敞开心扉、无拘无束，这是我在其他任何播客中从未有过的感受。

And you know I feel I feel so sort of open and free with you William as I never would with anybody else on any other podcast.

我想回到你刚才那个绝妙的问题——你问这本书为何会给人某种脆弱又私密的感受，而我正试图解释我的理解。

I just want to go back to your last question, which is such a good one, where you're asking about how this book feels very vulnerable and intimate in a certain way, and I was trying to explain how I saw it.

但这其实就像我看待你的书一样，因为你的书表面上看完全是客观的。

But it's very much as I see your book, because your book is on the face of it entirely external.

它精准地聚焦于那些杰出的投资者，我们从他们身上能学到什么，他们每个人如何开辟独特道路，可以说各自找到了战胜市场的不同方法。

It's exact it's entirely about these heroic investors and the things that we can learn from them and how they've charted their own individual course, each one of them, and come up with a different way of beating the market, you could say.

但就像我们大约一小时前谈到的，其实你选择的这些投资者的特质，都是最能引起你共鸣的那些品质的映射。

But as we were saying maybe an hour ago, really you selected aspects of these investors and certain qualities that are reflections of the ones that really speak to you.

从这个意义上说，这是一本非常非常个人化的书。

And so in that sense it's a very very personal book.

这是只有你才能写出的书，也只有你才能从这些人身上发现这些特质——尽管全书几乎没用'我'这个字，随便翻阅的人可能会说这只是记者对投资者的客观记录，但它实则是一本极具个人色彩的书。

That's really the book that only you could have written and the qualities only you could have found in these people, even though you barely have the word I throughout the book, and anyone picking it up casually would say this is just a journalist's account of objective account of various investors, but it's a deeply personal book.

然后...谢谢。

And and then Thanks.

这就是书籍奇妙之处。

And and that's how books work wonderfully.

我认为在某种无形的层面上，我们为作品注入了唯有自己才能赋予的特质，正是这一点赋予了它们某种力量或美感。

Think that at some invisible level, we're bringing something to to them that could only come from us, and that's where what gives them a a certain strength or beauty.

我认为我们俩都在非常诚实地思考如何真正生活这个问题。

I think both of us are wrestling very honestly with the question of actually how to live.

就像，我们正在努力应对这样的问题：如果一切都是不可知的，未来是未知的，火灾可能随时发生，或者在你隐居的地方可能发生泥石流，那么到底该如何找到内心的平静？

Like, we're we're grappling with questions like if if everything is unknowable and the future is unknown and a fire can come or a mudslide can come in the case of of your hermitage at any point, how the hell do you find peace?

你和...所以我认为对我们俩来说，在采访他人时我们都全身心投入，因为我们真的在与这些问题搏斗：如何面对自身的有限生命？

How do you and and so I I think for both of us when we're interviewing other people, we have so much skin in the game because we're really wrestling with these questions of how do we deal with our own mortality?

如何应对我们的失败、失望、渴望，以及那些我们关心却无法掌控的人？

How do we deal with our failures, our disappointments, our yearnings, the people we care for that we don't have control over?

所以我感觉这两本书都...它们都有种出人意料的真挚情感。

And so I I I feel like both books are very there's there's something quite unexpectedly heartfelt about both of them.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

你的书里有个我很喜欢的美丽角色，那位老太太特蕾莎，她在修道院住了二十多年，她曾谈到有七棵树被龙卷风刮倒的经历。

There's a beautiful character in your book who I love, this this old lady, Therese, who'd been living at the monastery for over twenty years, and she was talking at one point about how seven of her trees had been blown down by a tornado.

后来还发生了火灾疏散，她的丈夫在疏散期间因心脏病发作去世。

And then there had been a fire evacuation, and her husband had died of a heart attack during the fire evacuation.

于是她说，自己就这样被威胁、危险和失去所包围。

And she said so so she was surrounded by threats and dangers and loss.

她对你说过一句很精彩的话：'你必须呵护美好，充分珍惜它，因为它转瞬即逝。'

And she said this wonderful thing to you where she said, you have to take care of beauty to make the most of it because so soon it is gone.

她还说过：'当事物从你身边被带走时，那是为了给更高层次的理解腾出空间。'

And then she said when things are taken away from you, it's to make room for higher understanding.

我觉得这很美好，这种认知告诉我们，面对无常与不确定时，我们不该只是蜷缩在绝望中。

And I thought that was lovely, this sense that, you know, it's not like in the face of impermanence and uncertainty, we should just sort of lie down in fetal position and despair.

无常同时也是一份礼物，正如特蕾莎所说，你必须呵护美好并充分珍惜它，因为它转瞬即逝。

There's also this gift of impermanence, which is that you have to take care of beauty and make the most of it because as Therese said, so soon it's gone.

你对这个有什么想法吗？

Do you do you have thoughts about that?

因为书中似乎有一种特质，如果你真正诚实地看待无常与不确定性，它应该能唤醒你，让你注意到你所生活的世界，以及你在乎的人。

Because there there seems to be a quality in the book of if you look really honestly at impermanence and uncertainty, it should wake you up and and and make you notice the world you're living in, who you care about.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我现在所在的日本正是基于这种理念。

I mean, so Japan in which I'm sitting right now is premised on that.

当你走在京都的街道上，会看到各种告示牌（希望有英文翻译），写着'享受此刻吧，因为明天你可能就只剩白骨'，还有钟声不断提醒着这个事实。

And as you walk down the streets of Kyoto, there are literally signs, hopefully translated into English, saying enjoy this moment because tomorrow you could be white bones and there are bells tolling that that mess.

正如你所知，在这本书《燃烧》的第一页，我提到美或许必须带有一丝死亡的痕迹。

And as you know, the first page of this book, Aflame, I mentioned beauty maybe has to have a taint, a trace of mortality in it.

这就是本质——正是美的脆弱性赋予了它如此打动我们的深度。

That's the nature, it's the fragility of beauty that gives it the depth that moves us so much.

这就是为什么人们如此喜爱这里的樱花，恰恰因为它们只绽放十天，而我们永远不知道它们何时会凋零。

That's why people love the cherry blossoms here precisely because they only last for ten days and we never know when they're going to go.