RWH065：卓越的喜悦与布拉德·斯图尔伯格

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netsuite.com/study。

Netsuite.com/study.

好的。

Alright.

回到节目上来。

Back to the show.

在我看来，当我研究那些伟大的投资者时，就像你研究众多伟大的运动员、医生、外科医生和企业领袖一样，我发现他们身上有一种共同的特质。

It seems to me when I look at the great investors who are this this kind of microcosm that I've studied in the same way that you study so many great athletes and physicians and surgeons and, you know, corporate leaders and the like.

我认为在这些最优秀的投资者身上，有一种我称之为‘有意识的脱离’的能力，这在我的书中有所提及。

I see among the best investors this ability I I think I call it intentional disconnection in my book.

这种愿意脱离主流、过一种略显叛逆的反文化生活方式，简单地说就是：不。

This this willingness to disconnect and create a kind of countercultural lifestyle that's a little bit ornery, where you're just saying, no.

我不接受那些转瞬即逝的废话，我只专注于读书、研究企业、实地走访公司、阅读他们的年报。

I'm not taking in any of that ephemeral nonsense, and I'm just gonna focus on reading books, studying businesses, traveling to see companies, reading their annual reports.

在我看来，这几乎需要一种有意识的决定，不去接受尼克·斯利克所说的那些胡说八道和种种无稽之谈。

And it it seems to me that it requires almost a, you know, conscious decision not to buy into what Nick Sleek would just say, you know, the bollocks, you know, all of the nonsense.

你在书中用了一个非常美妙的表达。

And you have this lovely phrase in in your book.

你引用了‘逆进化’这个词，来形容那些利用我们对食物、性、地位和归属感等原始本能的新兴技术。

You quote someone using the word disevolution, all these new technologies that prey on our primal instincts of food and sex and status and connection.

你写到了超加工食品、超加工娱乐和超加工人际连接。

And you write you write about ultra processed food, ultra processed entertainment, and ultra processed connection.

所以，你整个围绕卓越设计生活的哲学，实际上是一种对这种肤浅、短期多巴胺刺激的刻意拒绝——这些刺激正被强加在我们身上，无论我们是在加油站还是在刷手机。

So it seems like your whole philosophy of designing a life built around excellence is really a very conscious rejection of this kind of bombardment of superficial short term dopamine hits that's being sort of foisted on us kinda unwillingly whether we're at the gas pump or on our phone.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

你需要努力为自己营造一个支持你价值观和目标的生态系统，以追求卓越。

You you need to try to engineer an ecosystem around you that is supportive of your values and goals in the pursuit of excellence.

在很多方面，这确实需要有意识地设计你的环境、你的物理空间、你的科技工具，以及在某种程度上，设计你周围的人，因为这些人也会对你的环境产生巨大影响。

And in many ways, it does require intentional design of one's environment, one's physical space, intentional design of one's technology, and to some extent, intentional design of the people with whom you surround yourself, because that's also an enormous impact in in part of your environment.

威廉，换一种方式理解：我们周围的所有物品都具有某种‘引力’。

Another way to think about it, William, is that all of these objects around us, they have a gravity, a sense of gravity.

这种引力要么将我们拉向目标、价值观、想成为的人以及我们的技艺，要么将我们拉离我们的技艺。

And that gravity can either pull us toward our goals and toward our values and toward the person we wanna become and toward our craft, or it can pull us away from our craft.

在很多方面，默认的状态就是被拉向十九个不同的方向，变得极度慌乱和焦躁。

And the default in many ways is just to be pulled in 19 different directions at once in in a very frantic and frenetic way.

而试图对抗这种引力是极其困难的。

And trying to to move against that gravity is extremely hard.

但如果你能退后一步，说：这是我真正关心的有限几件事。

But if you can step back and you can say, here's here are the here are the limited things I care deeply about.

我想成为一名出色的基金经理。

I wanna be a great fund manager.

我想成为一名出色的投资者。

I wanna be a great investor.

我想成为一名运动员。

I wanna be athlete.

我想成为一名出色的丈夫。

I wanna be a great husband.

我想成为一名出色的妻子。

I wanna be a great wife.

我想成为一个出色的妈妈。

I wanna be a great mom.

我想成为一个出色的爸爸。

I wanna be a great dad.

我想成为一个出色的社区成员。

I wanna be a great community member.

我想成为一个出色的音乐家。

I wanna be a great musician.

我想成为一个出色的顾问。

I wanna be a great consultant.

那么，你可以问，要做到这些需要什么？

Well, then you can say, what does it take to do that?

在这一切之外，我该如何尽可能地消除所有干扰，真正集中精力？

And outside of all of this, how do I eliminate all the noise around that to the best of my ability and really focus?

这很简单，但简单并不意味着容易。

And it's simple, but simple doesn't make it easy.

但这是简单的，而且是可以实现的。

But it's simple and it's attainable.

你提到的那些来自不同领域的人，他们都这么做。

And all those people from across domains that you mentioned, they all do this.

当你审视他们的生活时，他们的生活看起来并不普通。

When you look in at their lives, their lives, they don't look very ordinary.

他们的生活是非凡的，但并不是因为他们在基因上达到了某种不可思议的更高水平。

They're extraordinary lives, but not because they're genetically, you know, at such an incredible next level.

不。

No.

而是因为他们愿意对许多默认的选择说不，从而围绕真正重要的少数几件事构建自己的生活。

It's because they're willing to say no to a lot of the default to craft a life around the couple things that really matter to them.

这本书里有一句来自我导师迈克·乔纳的精彩名言，他说：如果你想成为一名极致主义者，你就必须先成为一名极简主义者。

There's this wonderful quote in the book that came from my mentor, Mike Joyner, and he says that if you wanna be a maximalist, you have to be a minimalist.

他意思是，如果你想在少数几个领域充分实现自我、过上充实而极致的生活，你就得愿意舍弃大量无谓的琐事——用你朋友的话说，就是那些废话。

And what he meant by that is if you wanna live a full maximal life and get your all out of yourself in a couple of domains, you've gotta be willing to forego a lot of the bullocks, to quote your friend.

是的

Yeah.

我曾经为一本我代笔的书采访过迈克尔·乔纳纳。

I once interviewed Michael Joyner for a a book that I was ghost writing.

他是个非凡的人。

He he was a remarkable guy.

我也很喜欢你书末尾的一句话，你说世界上表现最出色的人都是专注的、坚定的，有时有点疯狂，甚至有些偏执，但他们过着大多数人都会觉得无聊的平凡生活。

I also loved there's a line towards the end of your book where you say the best performers in the world are focused, determined, a little bit crazy, at times obsessive, and live mundane lifestyles that most people would find boring.

我觉得这非常有意思，那种愿意构建一种从外界看似乎很枯燥的生活方式。

I thought that was really interesting, like, that willingness actually to construct a lifestyle that from the outside, like, seems pretty boring.

你能谈谈这一点吗？

Can you talk a little bit about that?

这似乎是一个非常不错的观察。

It it seemed to be a really nice observation.

是的

Yeah.

我的意思是，你可以选择拥有一个奢华的社交生活。

What I mean by that is, you know, you can choose to have an extravagant social life.

你可以选择追求地位，参加所有流行的文化活动，但一天只有这么多小时。

You can choose to really pursue status and be in at all the current cultural events, but there's only so many hours in the day.

然而，如果你真的想精通自己的技艺，一天中的大部分时间都必须投入到能帮助你提升技艺的事情上。

And if you really wanna master your craft, though, a lot of the hours in the day have to be devoted towards things that are gonna help you master your craft.

如果你想拥有良好的人际关系——我相信这是美好人生的核心部分，而我知道你也持同样的看法——你也需要花大量时间来维系这些关系。

And if you wanna have good relationships, which I believe is a and I know you feel the same way as a core part to living a good life, also you have to spend a lot of hours towards maintaining those relationships.

这就意味着你必须放弃许多表面光鲜的事物。

And that requires foregoing a lot of the bright and shiny objects on the side.

从外面看似乎很无聊的东西，实际上从内部看却极其令人兴奋和有趣。

And what looks boring from the outside is actually incredibly exciting and interesting from the inside.

因为你在追求卓越的道路上走得越深，就会对正在做的事情和正在成为的自己越好奇，这种内在的回报就越强烈。

Because the deeper that you get on the path of excellence, the more curious you get about what you're doing and about who you're becoming, the more intrinsically rewarding it is.

这是一种任何豪华汽车、名表或地位感都无法给予你的回报。

And it's a kind of reward that no fancy car or fancy watch or sense of status will ever give you.

这就像杰里·赛恩菲尔德说过的那句话，你知道，你会反复打磨一个段子，投入数小时，有时是数月，甚至数年，直到它完美落地。

It's the Jerry Seinfeld quote about, you know, you work that joke and you put hours, in some cases months, in some cases years into it, and you get it just right and it lands.

那种成就感是无比巨大的。

That the satisfaction that comes from that is just so immense.

是的。

Yeah.

但这很枯燥。

You But it's boring.

我的意思是，想想看，花一年时间反复打磨同一个段子有多枯燥。

I mean, think about how boring it is to work that same joke for a year.

很多人会觉得这非常无聊。

Like, a lot of people would find that very boring.

你用了一个很贴切的词，说卓越需要亲密，你对这一点的定义与珀西克谈论摩托车保养时所说的那种感觉有些不同，指的是你与自己的技艺或活动之间建立起深刻的联结。

There's a very nice word that you use where you you say that excellence requires intimacy, which you define somewhat differently, this sense of of being very intimate with your craft or your activity, sort of in a in a way that Percic was talking about motorcycle maintenance.

因此，你和你所从事的活动或工作之间没有任何隔阂。

So there's no separation between you and the activity or the thing you're working on.

还有，我们之前提到的那位小提琴家希拉里·哈恩说过一句很精彩的话：你必须完全沉浸在每一个音符中，否则你会错过一些她所说的快得来不及思考的事情。

And there's a nice a nice line from this, violinist we mentioned before, Hilary Hahn, who said that you have to be completely in the note or you end up overlooking things that, as she puts it, are happening too fast for thinking.

我真的很喜欢这句话。

I really love that.

这简直是一种消除隔阂的状态。

Like, this it's kind of this removal of separation.

但其中确实带有一种非常灵性的意味。

But there is something kind of very spiritual about it.

对吧？

Right?

你就像是与你正在做的事情融为一体。

It's like you're one you're one with the thing that you're doing.

光是听你念出这句话，我就浑身起鸡皮疙瘩。

I get chills down my spine just hearing you read that quote.

希拉里·哈恩我认为是史上最强的国际小提琴独奏家，三届格莱美奖得主，做着别人从未做到过的事情。

Hilary Hahn is is, I think, the greatest of all time international violin soloist, three time Grammy winner, does things that no one else has done before.

她说，当她站在舞台上时，脑海中完全没有任何思考。

And she says that when she is up there on stage, there is zero thinking happening.

但在她上台之前，会有大量的思考；在练习过程中，也会付出大量有意识的努力。

Now there's a lot of thinking before she gets up on stage, and there's a lot of deliberate effort during her practice sessions.

但所有这些努力都是为了让她在那一刻能够凭着感觉去演奏每一个音符，完全沉浸在其中，与之紧密相连。

But all of that is to prepare her for this moment when she just feels her way through the note, and she's totally present, and she's totally connected to it.

我在书中写道，当我使用这些术语时，另一个浮现出来的词是‘爱’。

And I write in the book that when I use these terms, the other word that comes up is love.

我确实认为，卓越与爱非常相似。

And I actually think that excellence is a lot like love.

因为，什么是深入地投入反复练习、承诺、坚持、持续出现、亲近、跌入歧途后又重新回到正轨？

Because what is caring deeply in repeated practice, in commitment, in consistency, in showing up, in closeness, in falling off the path, and then getting back on the path?

这不正是在描述爱吗？

Like, what is that if not describing love?

这正是在描述爱。

It's describing love.

这正是在描述卓越。

It's describing excellence.

关于这个话题的一些最伟大的思想家曾说过，质量和卓越非常像爱。

And some of the greatest thinkers on this topic have said that quality and excellence is a lot like love.

这个创始人——这是一个简短的插曲，但我认为它很有趣。

The founder it's a it's a it's a short aside, but I think it's an interesting one.

医疗质量运动的创始人是一位名叫艾维图斯·多纳巴丹的先生。

The founder of the quality movement in health care is a gentleman named Avitus Donabaden.

在艾维图斯·多纳巴丹之前，医院根本没有质量指标。

So before Avitus Donabaden, there were no quality metrics for hospitals.

对？

K?

他们不追踪感染情况。

They didn't track infections.

他们也不追踪治疗结果。

They didn't track outcomes.

那简直是无法无天的西部荒野。

It was the Wild West.

这是几十年前的事了。

This is some decades ago.

多纳巴廷出现了，他说，这太荒谬了。

And Donabatin came along, he said, this is crazy.

你知道，我们在企业界追踪供应链，却不去追踪手术后的感染率。

You know, we we track supply chains in the corporate world, but we're not tracking infection rates after surgery.

我们需要一场质量革命。

Like, we need a quality movement.

他推动了医疗质量的开端，如今，衡量质量已经发展成一个价值数十亿美元的产业。

And he engineered the beginning of of quality in health care, and now it's a it's a gazillion dollar industry how we measure quality.

这非常细致入微。

It is very meticulous.

这非常严谨。

It's very rigorous.

它非常注重分析。

It's very analytical.

所有优秀的医院都有仪表盘和质量指标，并且实时更新。

All good hospitals, they have dashboards and quality metrics, and it's updated in real time.

我确实去过这些医院。

I've I've been in these hospitals.

他们在这个领域所展现的分析严谨性令人惊叹。

It's it's remarkable the level of analytic rigor they bring to this.

在临终前，阿维迪斯·多纳宾接受了一家著名医学期刊的采访。

On his deathbed, Avedis Donabin was interviewed by a prestigious medical journal.

采访者问他：这么多年过去了，您对质量有什么想说的吗？

And the interviewer asked him, after all these years, you know, what do you have to say about quality?

你知道他说了什么吗？

And you know what he said?

他说：质量就是爱。

He said quality is love.

我只是觉得这太美了。

And I just think that that's so beautiful.

因为是的，我们需要那些仪表盘。

It's because, yeah, we need those dashboards.

我们需要那些指标。

We need those metrics.

我们需要所有这些来让我们保持在正确的道路上。

We need all of those things to keep us on on the path.

但归根结底，那种全力以赴、那种关怀，正是爱的真谛。

But at the end of the day, the same kind of that that giving it your all, that caring, that's what love is all about.

爱真的令人满足，追求卓越也同样令人满足。

And love is really satisfying, and the pursuit of excellence is really satisfying.

无论是共同养育家庭、亲密关系，还是斯蒂芬·库里投进一个跳投，或是你心目中打造完美的投资团队，这一切都是爱。

And whether it is raising a family together or an intimate relationship or Steph Curry hitting a jump shot or building the perfect investment team in your eyes, that is all love.

巴菲特谈到伯克希尔时说，他退休前六十年来一直用心经营，如果我没记错的话。

Well, Buffett talked about Berkshire, which he just retired from after sixty years as, you know, being lovingly built, if I if I'm not misquoting.

我的意思是，他用六十年的时间在这幅画布上创作，非常用心。

I mean, it was his canvas that he painted over sixty years and very lovingly.

他说，如果你想画自己的画布，那就去画吧，但别碰我的。

And he's like, if you you wanna paint your canvas, you go do it, but don't mess with mine.

你知道的。

You know?

他对如何绘制自己认为美丽的画布，有着相当固执的态度。

He was very kinda ornery about painting it in the way that that he felt was beautiful.

几周前，我和一位非常出色的年轻投资者进行了一次非常有趣的对话，他从不公开露面。

And I I had a really interesting conversation a few weeks ago with a brilliant young investor who's very he's he he, you know, he never really talks publicly.

有一位名叫威尔·巴克的优秀投资者，他与尼克·斯利普关系密切，并受到尼克的指导。

So there's a wonderful investor called Will Barker who is very close to Nick Sleep and is sort of mentored by Nick.

因此，威尔与杰夫·贝佐斯等人密切合作，贝佐斯曾投资过他的一个企业。

And so Will works very closely with people like Jeff Bezos, who's invested in one of his businesses.

他还了解吉姆·西内加尔这样的传奇人物，这位好市多的前首席执行官也是威尔的导师。

And, you know, he knows people like Jim Sinegal, is this legendary CEO of of Costco, who is also a mentor of Will's.

威尔告诉我，当他看待像杰夫·贝佐斯、吉姆·西内加尔或尼克·斯利普这样的人时，他们的动力始终源于爱。

And Will was saying to me that when he looks at people like Jeff Bezos or Jim Sinegal or Nick Sleep, it's always motivated by love.

也就是说，一切归根结底都是爱。

Like, it all comes down to love.

这听起来似乎有点太柔软了。

Like and it sounds it sounds sort of so soft.

你知道吗？

I I you know?

但其中确实有些东西。

But there there is something about that.

我的意思是，你在书里写到过，当一切仅仅围绕着我们那个狭隘、自我保护的自我，那个总在担忧失败的自我时，这确实是个大问题。

It's like if it I mean, you you write about it this in the book that when it's really just about, as you put it, our small separate and protective ego that is normally worried about failure.

这真是个大问题。

It's a real problem.

因此，某种程度上，超越自我、以卓越和品质去追求某些事物，听起来似乎模糊、空泛，甚至有点高深莫测，但我想，你在书中也提到过，这种理念其实贯穿于中国哲学和古希腊哲学之中。

And so in some way, this idea of of transcending the ego and pursuing something with excellence and quality, It sort of sounds nebulous and vague and a little highfalutin, but I guess we I mean, you you write about this in the book about how this has this has been something that goes through Chinese philosophy, ancient Greek philosophy.

我的意思是，这并不是一个新观点。

I mean, it's it's it's not a new idea.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

No.

它正是每一种古代智慧哲学的核心。

It's at the core of of every ancient wisdom philosophy.

希腊人称之为arete，并将其视为古希腊可能至高无上的价值。

The Greeks called this arete, and it was held up as as maybe the the utmost value in ancient Greece.

在中国，这被称为‘无为’，发生在战国时期这个哲学蓬勃发展的时代。

In China, this was called wuwei in in warring states China, which was this burgeoning philosophical epoch.

无为本质上是一种通过深切关注并追求某项技艺而获得的精通感。

And wu wei was essentially the the sense of mastery that you gained by caring deeply about a craft and pursuing it.

佛教称之为正精进，是一种以充分意图和全神贯注的态度去行事的方式。

The Buddhists call this right effort, and it is a way of going about what you're doing with full intention in in full focus.

所以，就像许多事情一样，我认为古代的智慧传统远远领先于科学。

So, like like like so many things, I think that the ancient wisdom traditions were well ahead of the science.

而现在，在科学中，我们称之为繁荣。

And now in science, we call this flourishing.

现在还出现了一整套关于如何发挥最佳表现的绩效科学，你知道的。

And now there's a whole performance science, so, you know, around around how do you perform your best.

但其核心其实是这种深切的关怀与热爱，而这又回到了这个二元对立上。

But at the core of it is really this sense of deep care and love, which, again, all comes to this dichotomy.

那么，与疏离、抽离和机械行事相反的是什么？

Well, what is the opposite of alienation and remove and going through the motions?

是深切的关怀与热爱。

It's deep care and love.

围绕深切的关怀与热爱来构建人生，就是一种美好的人生。

And to build a life around deep care and love is is a good life.

而过着一种疏离的生活则不是好生活，你也无法创造出优质的东西。

And to to have a alienated life is not a good life, and you're not gonna create quality.

你这样是无法做出贡献的。

You're not gonna contribute that way.

让我们深入具体地谈谈如何真正培养卓越。

So let's talk in very practical terms in some depth about how actually to cultivate excellence.

因为你的书的后半部分完全致力于构建心态、实践、习惯、日常安排这些卓越的核心要素。

Because the second half of your book is entirely devoted to building the mindsets, the practices, the habits, the routines, these core factors of excellence.

所以我想如果我们能详细探讨其中很多内容，让我们的听众和观众能获得一些切实可行的做法。

And so I wanted to go through a lot of them in in some detail if we can so that our listeners and viewers leave this with a kind of tangible sense of things that they can do.

不过他们当然也一定会购买这三本书来巩固这些内容。

Though they'll also definitely wanna buy all three of these books to bed their stuff down.

这次对话并不能替代购买你的书籍。

This conversation is not a replacement for buying your books.

所以，正如你所说，培养对核心价值观的真正认知，并围绕核心价值观构建职业生涯，是很重要的。

So, obviously, as you've said, developing a a real sense of your core values and building a career around your core values is important.

你曾经写道：真正的成功，就是过一种与你的价值观一致的生活，仅此而已。

And you write at one point, true success is living a life that is in alignment with your values, full stop.

你能给我们一些指导，告诉我们该如何真正找出自己的核心原则，并判断我们正在参与的项目或即将投身的职业是否与我们的价值观一致吗？

Can you give us a sense of how actually we should go about figuring out what our guiding principles are, deciding whether the project we're engaged in or the career that we're embarking on supports our values?

因为很多人感觉自己处于一种错位的状态。

Because so many people feel kinda misaligned.

部分原因只是因为他们需要谋生，只能拼命奔波以求温饱。

And and partly it's just because they're trying to make a living, and they're just hustling to get by.

关于价值观，我逐渐形成的看法——很多都基于临床心理学的研究——是当你的价值观数量在两到五个之间时，它们才最具力量；超过五个，就都没那么有意义了。

The way that, I've come to think about values, and and a lot of this is based on clinical psychology research, is they're most powerful when you have between two and five, any more than five, and and none of them are really as meaningful.

而少于两个，你就只专注于一件事，永远不必面对取舍带来的张力。

And any less than two, you're kinda just all focused on one thing, and you never have to deal with the tension of trade offs.

通往价值观的途径有几种，书中都详细列出了这些方法。

There's a couple inroads to the the values, and all of these are are outlined in detail in the book.

我最喜欢的一种方法是：先列出一百个常见的价值观，然后挑选出那些真正触动你的。

The one that I like is you just start with a list of a 100 commonly held values, and you pick out whatever ones resonate with you.

大多数人最终会选出十五到三十个。

Most people end up with somewhere between fifteen and thirty.

然后你把这十五到三十个词按相似含义分组。

And then you take those 15 to 30 terms, and you group like terms together.

大多数人最终会得到三到七组。

Then most people end up with somewhere between three and seven groups.

如果你的组超过五个，就把这些组拿出来，说：好吧。

And then if you've got more than five groups, you take those groups and you say, alright.

这些组中，哪些真正是我希望成为的人的核心，是我向往的，是我希望在追悼会上被提及的？

Which of these groups are, like, really core to the person that I want to be, that I aspire toward, that I want, you know, in my eulogy?

我希望这些内容被提到。

I want these things mentioned.

于是你就有了这五个组。

And you've got these five groups.

然后你把这些五组词拿出来，思考：它们的本质到底是什么？

Then you take these five groups of terms, and you say, well, what's really at the essence?

对我来说，哪个词最能概括这一点？

Like, what's the word that to me is gonna capture this?

这就会成为你的价值观，然后你必须定义它。

And that becomes your value, and then you have to define it.

所以，说你重视存在、智慧、智力、健康、声誉、家庭或精神，这些流行词都很简单。

So it's easy to say you value presence or wisdom or intellect or health or reputation or family or spirituality, all these buzzwords.

但它们不能只是简单地写在你桌上的一个小卡片上。

But they can't just be, you know, on a little three by five note card on your desk.

你真的需要理解它们的含义。

You actually have to understand what they mean.

因为当真正面临抉择时，当你必须在生活中做决定时，你可以问自己：这是否与我的价值观一致？

Because when the rubber meets the road, when you have to make decisions in your life, you can ask yourself, does this align with my value?

这就是通往你价值观的非常系统的方法。

That's the very methodical way into your values.

现在，有些人听到这些后会说，这太棒了。

Now a couple of people hear this, and they say, that's great.

我迫不及待想参加这个项目。

I can't wait to go through that program.

有些人说，我根本不知道从哪里开始。

Some people say, I don't even know where to begin.

比如，你给我一百个词，我也搞不清该选哪些。

Like, I I you can show me a 100 words.

我完全不知道该挑哪些。

I have no idea which ones to pick out.

对此，我会说，如果你想想那些你非常钦佩的人，然后问自己，你钦佩他们什么。

And there, what I would say is that if you think about some people that you really admire and then ask yourself what you admire about those people.

比如，你究竟钦佩他们哪一点？

Like, what is it that you admire about them?

这通常是找到你所重视品质的另一个很好的切入点。

That that tends to be another pretty good inroads to qualities that you value.

你也可以想象十年后，甚至更久的未来，可能是二十年、三十年、四十年后，如果年老的你回望现在的你，年老的你会为哪些事感到骄傲？

You could also imagine yourself a decade down the road or maybe even longer, maybe twenty, thirty, forty years down the road, and you could say if older you was looking back on current you, what would older you be proud of?

年老的你会希望现在的你成为什么样的人？

What kind of person would older you want current you to be?

另一个了解你价值观的好途径。

Another good inroads to your values.

我认为，如果你能从这三方面进行交叉验证，大多数人就能找出一套不错的价值观，然后花些时间仔细定义每个术语的含义，并用它们来检验自己的生活方式是否与这些价值观一致。

And I think that if you triangulate between those three things, most people can come up with a nice set of values and then spend some time really defining what each of those terms mean and then putting them to the litmus test of is the way that I'm living my life in alignment with those values.

结果往往是，你得到一个非常崇高的词，比如我想保持专注。

And what ends up happening is you get a a very lofty term such as I wanna be present.

所以你的价值观是专注。

So your value is presence.

然后临时编造出定义。

And then then making this up on the fly.

比如说，有人把专注定义为：全心全意地陪伴我所关心的人和活动。

Let's say that someone defines presence as, being fully there for the people and activities I care about.

如果你在和家人共进晚餐时，手机还放在口袋里，不断低头偷看邮件，那你就违背了自己所宣称的专注价值观。

Well, if you've got your cell phone in your pocket during dinner with your family and you're constantly peeking under the table to check your email, that is in dissonance with your stated value of presence.

所以，如果你想过一种与价值观一致的生活，那么吃饭时，你的手机就得放在客厅的抽屉里，远离你的身体。

So if you wanna live a values aligned life, then during dinner, your phone's gotta go in the living room in a drawer somewhere where it's not on your person.

所以，你从‘存在’这种高度志向的价值观，一直落实到晚餐时手机该放在哪里？

So you go all the way from this high volition value of presence down to where is my phone gonna be during dinner?

这就是你开始设计一种与价值观一致的生活的方式。

And that's how you begin to design a values aligned life.

你之前提到过迈克尔·乔纳，他认为要想成为极致的专家，就必须先成为极简主义者。

You talked before about Michael Joyner and his idea that you have to be a minimalist to be a maximalist.

他说，要精通并充分享受一件事，就必须对许多其他事情说不，这一点巴菲特也总是强调：最成功的人几乎对所有事情都说不。

And he said to master and thoroughly enjoy one thing, you need to say no to many others, which is something Buffett always would say that, you know, the most successful people say no to almost everything.

当你思考你在书中谈到的权衡这个主题时，你大量讨论了‘平衡’是一种幻觉的观点——我们很多人都幻想能拥有一个平衡的生活。

And when you think about this whole subject of trade offs that you write about in the book, you talk a lot about the idea of balance being an illusion that a lot of us kind of fantasize about having a balanced life.

我经常谈论这个话题。

And I talk about this a lot.

我总是感觉自己完全错位、失衡，然后为此感到内疚。

I mean, I'm I'm constantly feeling totally misaligned and imbalanced and then guilty about it.

我觉得自己在多个方面都失败了。

And I feel like I'm sort of failing on multiple fronts.

我感觉自己在多个方面都做得不够好，让每个人都失望了。

I'm sort of falling short and disappointing everyone on multiple fronts.

你能谈谈你所说的，试图追求平衡反而让我们自己发疯的感觉吗？也许更好的替代模式应该是什么样子？

And can you talk about, like, the sense that as as you put it, by trying to be balanced, we end up driving ourselves crazy, and what maybe a better a better paradigm for this might look like?

人们通常所理解的平衡，意味着你要在同等重要的事情上投入相等的时间和精力。

Balance as it's popularly conceived tends to mean you're gonna devote equal proportion of time and energy to equal things.

所以你要成为最好的丈夫或妻子，最好的父母，最好的朋友。

So you're gonna be the best husband and wife, the best parents, the best friends.

你要精通一项技艺。

You're gonna master a craft.

技艺。

Craft.

你要成为出色的员工、优秀的管理者或卓越的首席执行官。

You're gonna be a great employee or a great manager or a great CEO.

你还要紧跟所有最新的流行文化。

You're gonna stay up on all the latest pop culture.

你还要组一个幻想足球队。

You're gonna have a fantasy football team.

你还要做晚饭。

You're gonna cook dinner.

你还要保持家里干净整洁。

You're gonna have a clean house.

你还要去辅导孩子们的运动队，如此种种，没完没了。

You're gonna coach the kids' sports teams and on and on and on.

这一切都被包装成自助成长的理念，但实际上却让你痛苦不堪，因为没人能做好所有这些事。

And it's sold to us as this self help idea, but it just makes you miserable because nobody can do all those things.

由于试图面面俱到，你把自己搞得筋疲力尽，最终在各方面都只是平庸而已。

And as a result of trying, you stretch yourself way too thin, and you end up mediocre at best across the board.

这绝不是过上深刻、丰富而充实生活的正确方式。

Now that is no way to live a deeply meaningful, rich, and fulfilling life.

所以我认为，解决办法是退后一步，对自己说：嘿。

So I think that the antidote to that is to step back and to say, hey.

我得在这里像个成年人一样。

I'm gonna have to be an adult here.

我得意识到，不像我八岁的孩子想什么都做，你不可能什么都做。

And I'm gonna have to realize that unlike my eight year old who wants to do everything, you can't do everything.

你必须做出选择。

You have to pick and choose.

你必须做出取舍。

You have to make trade offs.

然后你可以回到自己的价值观，说：好吧。

Then you can go back to your values, and you can say, alright.

在我目前能投入时间和精力的生活领域中，哪些与我的价值观一致？

Of the the areas of my life where I can devote time and energy right now, what are the areas that align with my values?

哪些是我想要全力以赴的领域？

What are the areas that I wanna go all in on?

大多数人任何时候最多只能在两到三个事情上高度专注。

And most people can be highly focused on somewhere between two and three things at max at any given point of time.

现在，我在研究那些非常成功但又不讨人厌、不是混蛋、同时也是好人、深陷职业生涯、有些人甚至已经长期退休的人时，发现了一个有趣的现象：当你聚焦于他们生命中的任何一个瞬间，他们看起来完全不平衡。

Now what's fascinating in my reporting of highly successful high performers who aren't jerks, who aren't assholes, like, who are also good people, who are deep into their career, in some cases, long retired from their professional life, when you zoom in on any one moment of their life, they don't look balanced at all.

他们似乎全身心投入在一两件事上。

They appear to be going all in on one or two things.

但当你拉远视角，纵观他们整个人生时，他们实际上显得相当平衡。

But when you zoom out and you look across the totality of their life, they actually seem quite balanced.

因此，他们在人生的不同时期会侧重不同的方面。

So they have different seasons of life for emphasizing different parts of their life.

这真是一个美妙的理论概念。

Now that's a beautiful intellectual concept.

但你该如何真正将它付诸实践呢？

How do you actually put this into practice?

我在书中提出的框架是，把身份想象成一栋房子。

And the framework that I introduced in the book is to think about identity like a house.

如果你有一栋房子，而这栋房子只有一个房间，当这个房间着火或被水淹时，你会感到极度混乱。

So if you have a house and the house only has one single room in it and that room catches fire or floods, it's extremely dislocating.

你不得不搬出这栋房子。

You're gonna have to move out of the house.

你将不知道自己住在哪里。

You're not gonna know where you live.

你得找一栋新房子。

You're gonna have to find a new house.

但如果你的房子有多个房间，当其中一个房间着火或被水淹时，你可以暂时到其他房间避难，同时处理火灾或水患问题。

But if you have a house that has multiple rooms in it and one room catches fire or floods, you can go seek refuge in the other rooms while you work on resolving the fire or flood.

用这种方式看待我们的身份非常有帮助。

And it's so helpful to think of our identities the same way.

所以，如果你的身份之屋只有一个房间，而这个房间只是‘基金经理’，那么当基金出现混乱或出问题时，你会感到极度迷失。

So if you have an identity house with only one room, only room in your identity house is fund manager, well, then when things get chaotic or something goes wrong at the fund, it's gonna be extremely unmooring.

但如果你的身份之屋里还有其他房间，比如丈夫、妻子、父母、运动员、宗教信徒、社区成员、咖啡爱好者、书呆子等等，那么你的自我认同就开始多元化，从而让你在任何一个方面遭遇挫折时都不那么脆弱。

But if you have a room in your identity house for husband, wife, or for parent, or for athlete, or for religious member, community member, for coffee lover, for book nerd, whatever the things may be, then you start to diversify your sense of self a little bit, which makes you much less fragile to rupture in any one room.

我喜欢这个比喻的地方在于，有些听众可能会想：‘布拉德，你刚才说不要追求平衡，但现在你又在谈一个有多个房间的房子。’

Now what I like about this analogy, and some listeners might be thinking, well, Brad, you just said don't be balanced, but now you're talking about a house with different rooms.

这些房间不需要大小相同。

The rooms don't have to be the same sizes.

你不需要在每个房间里花相同的时间。

You don't have to spend the same amount of time in each room.

如果你追求卓越，就不会这样。

If you're pursuing excellence, you won't.

你会在其中一个房间里花很多时间。

You'll be spending a lot of time in one room.

你只需要确保没有重要的房间因长期不用而发霉，因为你不知道将来哪个生命阶段会需要依赖这些房间。

You just wanna make sure that none of the important rooms get moldy because you don't know what season of life you're gonna need to rely on those rooms in.

所以，与其想着完美地均衡做所有事，我更关注我的身份之屋里有哪些房间。

So rather than think about perfect balance doing everything always, I think about what are the rooms in my identity house?

我现在最想在哪个房间里花最多时间？

What room do I do I wanna be spending the most time in right now?

我该如何确保其他房间不会被忽视？

And how can I make sure that the other rooms don't get multi?

如果你这样做，就能让你专注于一两件事，进入深度投入和专注的阶段，同时不会在过程中迷失自我。

And if you do that, it allows you to zero in and have these these seasons of deep intensity and focus on on one or two things without losing a sense of who you are in the process.

我喜欢书末致谢部分的一个细节，当你感谢妻子和孩子时，说他们是‘我身份之屋中最大的房间’——只有像你我这样的书呆子，才会把这句话当作最高的赞美。

I like the fact that in the acknowledgment section of the book at the end, you when you were thanking your wife and kids, you said that they are the biggest room in my identity house, which only for a nerd like you or me would be the highest praise to say you're you're the biggest room in my identity house.

另一件我觉得与超越平衡这个理念密切相关的、非常有帮助的观点是，你提到不仅要专注于主要追求，还要建立你所说的‘最低有效剂量’。

The, the other thing I thought you said that was really helpful in connection to this idea of moving beyond balance was you talked about, yes, focusing on your main pursuit, but also establishing what you call clear minimum effective doses.

你能稍微谈谈这个吗？

Can you talk a little bit about that?

为什么你要提出‘最低有效剂量’这个概念？

Why this idea of having minimum effective doses?

你所说的‘最低有效剂量’是什么意思？

What what do mean by it?

我所说的‘最低有效剂量’是指，当你处于不和谐的阶段，全身心投入某件事时。

What I mean by it is if you're in a season of disharmony because you're going all in on something.

比如说，你正在努力筹集一笔比以往都大的资金。

So let's say that you're you're trying to raise a fund that's bigger than you've ever raised before.

也许你正在尝试创业。

Maybe you're trying to start a business.

那么，你将把大部分时间和精力投入到基金或创业这个身份空间中，也就是你的创业者身份空间。

Well, you're gonna spend the vast majority of your time and energy in the the fund or the business room of your identity house, the entrepreneur room of your identity house.

因此，你必须问自己：我该如何保持与婚姻空间、父母空间、健康空间的联系，以免这些方面崩溃瓦解？

So then the question that you have to ask yourself is, well, how do I stay in touch with the marriage room, with the parent room, with the health room enough so that those things don't blow up on me and fall apart?

而这就是‘最小有效剂量’这个概念发挥作用的地方。

And this is where the concept of a minimum effective dose comes in.

那么，在全身心投入创业的同时，维持一段健康婚姻的最小有效剂量是什么？

So what's the minimum effective dose to keep a healthy marriage while you go all in on being an entrepreneur?

对每个人来说，这都会有所不同。

It's gonna look different for everyone.

对一些人来说，是一周一次约会夜。

For some people, it's one date night a week.

对一些人来说，是一个月一次约会夜。

For some people, it's one date night a month.

对一些人来说，是每周三次家庭聚餐。

For some people, it's three family dinners a week.

对一些人来说，是每周五次家庭聚餐。

For some people, it's five family dinners a week.

对一些人来说，是每周两次家庭聚餐。

For some people, it's two family dinners a week.

对于健康，我们都应该极其重视。

For health, we all should take our health extremely seriously.

即使你根本不关心自己的身材如何，所有证据都表明，如果你在意自己的大脑和认知能力，那么最重要的一件事就是保持适度的健康状态。

Even if you don't give a damn about what your body looks like, all the evidence shows that if you care about your brain and your cognition, then the number one thing you can do is stay relatively fit.

所以，也许在某个阶段，你不再每周锻炼五天、每次四十五分钟，而是改为每周锻炼三天、每次三十分钟，但你永远不会完全放弃。

So maybe instead of exercising five days a week for forty five minutes during that season, you're only gonna exercise three days a week for thirty minutes, but you're never gonna leave it completely behind.

所以，最小有效剂量就是这个意思。

So the minimum effective dose is is just that.

它就是让你确保身份之屋中任何重要的部分都不会彻底腐烂的东西。

It's whatever allows you to make sure that nothing important in your identity house completely goes moldy.

你知道，你得稍微打理一下这个空间，这样你才能回来时它还在。

You know, you gotta you gotta tend the room just enough so that you can come back to it.

因为我认为，任何事情的终极法则之一——我从健身中学到的，但适用于任何事——那就是维持比建立更容易。

Because one of the ultimate laws, I think, of anything I got this from fitness, but it's true in anything, is that it's easier to maintain than to build.

所以，一旦你建立了某样东西，维持它就不会太难。

So once you've built something, it's not that hard to maintain.

你知道，你只需要时不时地检查一下，就能保持质量，保持能力。

You know, you can just check-in every now and then and keep a quality, keep a capacity strong.

但一旦你完全放任不管，要重新建立起来就需要很长时间。

But once you let it go completely, it takes a long time to build it back.

你深入思考过，为了在这些高度竞争的领域中表现出色，我们必须多么偏执或狂热，无论是成为世界级运动员、世界级投资者，还是公司领导者，你警告不要陷入鲁莽的狂热执着。

You've thought a lot about how obsessive or maniacal we have to be to perform well in these super competitive pursuits, whether it's, you know, being a world class athlete or being a world class investor or or leader of a company, and you warn against reckless maniacal obsession.

但与此同时，这其中有些是语义和语言上的问题，但确实存在一个真正的问题。

And at the same time and some of this is is semantic and linguistic, but there's a real issue here.

因为当我回顾这些年来我写过的许多伟大投资者时，大多数——如果不是全部的话——至少有一部分最终都离婚了。

Because when I when I look at a lot of the great investors I've written about over the years, most of most if not certainly, a a goodly proportion ended up divorced.

像霍华德·马克斯或查理·芒格这样的人，他们有很多其他兴趣，阅读和思考的范围也更广。

There are people like like Howard Marks or Charlie Munger who had a lot of other interests who were very were sort of broader in their reading and their thinking.

你能谈谈这种慢性痴迷作为一种灾难性配方的观点吗？

Can you talk about this idea of of chronic obsession as a kind of recipe for disaster?

因为对于你的说法，我某种程度上既信服又不完全信服，你知道我的意思。

Because I'm I'm sort of I'm sort of convinced and sort of unconvinced by your claim, if you know what I mean.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实是一个巨大的张力，我很高兴你提出了这个问题。

This is this is a great a great tension, and I'm glad that you're you're asking this question.

我认为，痴迷有不同的类型。

So I think that there are different flavors of obsession.

对我来说，鲁莽的痴迷就是当你明明想停下来，却根本停不下来。

And reckless obsession to me is when you cannot stop doing what you're doing even when you want to stop.

这非常像一种成瘾。

So it's very much like an addiction.

K？

K?

所以即使你想要停止，你也无法停止思考工作或继续工作。

So you cannot stop thinking about the work or doing the work even when you want it.

即使你认为暂时离开工作会更好，因为这能让你重新充电、恢复精力、获得新的视角，但你就是对那种拧紧螺丝刀的感觉上瘾得不行。

Even when you think actually stepping away from it would be good because it would allow you to renew, to recover, to take on new perspectives, but you're just you're just so freaking addicted to that feeling of tightening the screwdriver.

这是一种必须不断继续的强迫感。

It's like this compulsion to keep going.

这种痴迷不仅在我的报道或观点中，也在研究中，这种痴迷与高绩效无关。

That kind of obsession in in in not just in my reporting or my opinion, in the research, that kind of obsession is is not associated with high performance.

它实际上与绩效的下降有关。

It's actually associated with the degradation in performance.

这就是鲁莽的痴迷。

So that's reckless obsession.

我认为更健康的痴迷是你对你所做的事情有着极其深刻的关注。

I think a healthier obsession is you care extremely deeply about what you're doing.

对吧？

Right?

这才是卓越的前沿。

That's at the the forefront of excellence.

它确实需要你投入不成比例的认知、精力和时间，但你仍然能掌控它。

It does take an outsized amount of your cognition, of your energy, of your time, but you still control it.

它不会控制你。

It doesn't control you.

我的意思是，如果你的孩子需要你，或者生病住院了，你需要离开两个小时，你完全可以离开那两个小时。

And what I mean by that is that if you've got a kid that really needs you or that is sick and in the hospital and you need to step away for two hours, you can step away for those two hours.

当你深陷其中、因疲惫而无法清晰思考时，你能意识到这一点。

Well, you can realize when you're in so deep that you are no longer thinking clearly because you're just fatigued.

你确实需要走出自己的领域，阅读本领域之外的内容，去你所在行业以外的公司走走，获取这些新视角。

And you actually need to step outside of your domain, read outside of your domain, go walk the halls of companies that are outside of your your industry to get these new perspectives.

你可以做到这一点。

You can do that.

另一种很有帮助的思考方式是，要想做到卓越，你必须全身心投入，但如果你一直全身心投入，那就非常危险。

Another very helpful way to think about it is that in order to be excellent, you have to be all in, but it's very dangerous if you're all in all the time.

那么，你该如何在生活中建立足够的结构，才能做到全身心投入呢？

So how do you have enough structure in your life where you can be all in?

也许是一天十个小时。

Maybe it's a ten hour day.

也许是一天十二个小时。

Maybe it's a twelve hour day.

也许是一天十五个小时。

Maybe it's a fifteen hour day.

但绝不能是24小时不间断，否则你只会把自己烧垮。

But it can't be twenty four seven all the time because you're just gonna burn yourself out.

我认为，有时我们会在纪录片中看到一些关于鲁莽痴迷的故事。

And I think that what ends up happening is sometimes we we have these stories of of reckless obsession in documentaries that get made.

但如果你真正追踪这些人职业生涯的长期轨迹，就会发现他们的结局往往并不好，或者他们取得的成就，恰恰是尽管有这种鲁莽的痴迷，而非因为这种痴迷。

But if you really follow, like, the long arc of these people's careers, they tend not to end so well, or they tend to accomplish a lot of what they did in spite of their reckless obsession, not because of it.

我认为，大多数非常成功的高绩效者在某个阶段都会意识到，自己的执着正朝着鲁莽的方向发展，于是他们学会如何掌控它，而不是被它掌控。

And I think most very successful high performers, somewhere along the way, they figure out that their obsession is trending towards the reckless variety, and they figure out how to control it so it doesn't control them.

你说得对。

So you're right.

这确实有点是语言表达上的细微差别，但其中有一个重要的细微区别：不是不要执着，而是你掌控你的执着，还是你的执着掌控你？

It is a little bit of, of just linguistical difference, but there's an important nuance, which is not don't be obsessed, but it's do you control your obsession, or does your obsession control you?

这对高绩效者来说是一条微妙的界限。

And that's a fine line for high performers.

要一直保持在这条线的正确一侧非常困难，而且一旦越界，代价会极高。

And it's very hard to stay on the right side of that line, and the stakes are extremely high because you cross over it.

研究表明，越界会与焦虑、抑郁和不道德行为相关联。

And the research shows that it's associated with anxiety, depression, and unethical behavior.

我的意思是，Theranos的伊丽莎白·霍姆斯完全痴迷于她的公司，但这并没有带她走向辉煌。

I mean, Elizabeth Holmes from Theranos was, like, fully obsessed with her company, and it did not take her to great places.

你写了很多关于休息与恢复期的重要性，认为这是取得巨大成功的关键部分。

You write quite a bit about the importance of of having periods of rest and renewal as kind of a key part of being very successful.

在研究了这些极其成功的人之后，结合关于如何有效休息与恢复的科学发现，你发现了什么？

What have you found in terms of of your study of all of these hugely successful people, but also in terms of the science about what works best when we're trying to step away and get some rest and renewal.

我认为，如果你是一个高度驱动、充满执着的人，你就必须停止把休息看作与工作分离的东西，而要把休息视为工作不可或缺的一部分。

I think that if you're a highly driven pusher and if you have these obsessive qualities, you have to stop thinking of rest as something that is separate from the work and start thinking of rest as an integral part of the work.

所以，休息必须被纳入你的计划中。

So it has to be built into your program.

运动员对此非常清楚。

Athletes know this extremely well.

运动员有恢复日。

Athletes have recovery days.

他们有休息日。

They have rest days.

这些都被纳入了训练计划中。

They are built into the program.

因此，它们并不是与训练分开的。

So they're not not separate from the training.

它们是训练的一部分，并且被有策略地安排，以便适应高强度的工作。

They're a part of their training, and they're strategically placed so that they can adapt to the hard work.

我认为，对于认知和智力型工作，我们也需要安排类似的休息时间和休息日。

And I think for cognitive and intellectual pursuits, we need to build in the equivalent of rest breaks and rest days.

不过，这会因人而异，取决于个人所处的人生阶段以及他们正在追求的目标。

Now, again, it's gonna look very different depending on the person, their phase of life, and what they're trying to do.

我逐渐认为，对我而言，每周工作六天是最好的方式。

I have come to believe that it's best to work a six day week for me.

如果只工作五天，我会太过沉迷。

So five days, I'm too obsessed.

我得说，一天的时间根本不够用。

I gotta you know, there's not enough hours in the day.

但如果我每周工作七天，我所增加的工作时间，会在工作质量上损失两倍。

But if I start working seven days a week, what I gain in additional working time, I lose about twofold in the quality of my work.

因为对我而言，拥有一天彻底远离工作，能让我以更充沛的精力、更丰富的创造力和更深刻的洞察力重新投入。

Because for me, having one day where I really step away, it allows me to come back so much more refreshed with so much more creativity and intensity and insight.

在一天当中，我们可以利用这些短暂的微休息。

Throughout the day, we can take these short micro breaks.

可能是十分钟的散步。

It might be a ten minute walk.

斯坦福大学有一些引人入胜的研究表明，仅仅散步十分钟，创造力就能提升40%到60%。

There's fascinating research out of Stanford that shows that just after a ten minute walk, creativity improves by between 4060%.

所以当你感到卡壳时，往往会倾向于更用力地去解决这个问题。

So when you're feeling stuck, there's this tendency to lean in and try to solve the problem.

但通常，你所能做的最好的事情就是离开一会儿，去散个步。

Often, the best thing that you can do is step away and take a walk.

我们本就知道这一点，因为每个人都曾有过这样的经历：陷入难题时，答案却在洗澡、通勤回家、遛狗或健身时突然冒出来，诸如此类。

We inherently know this because everyone has had the experience of being stuck on a problem, and then the answer pops into their mind in the shower or on their commute home or while they're walking the dog or in the gym, so on and so forth.

因为只有当你真正停下来时，你的潜意识才能启动，去处理那些棘手的问题。

Because it's only when you finally step away that your subconscious mind can come online and and do the work of solving some of those thorny problems.

所以，这番长篇大论最终想说的是：我认为，你绝不能把休息和恢复看作是牺牲卓越表现的代价。

So it's a long winded way to the ultimate answer, which is I think that you cannot think of rest and renewal as something that you do at expense of being a great performer.

你必须把休息视为成为优秀表现者的一部分。

You have to think of it as part of being a great performer.

我那些漫长而随意的散步，并不是以牺牲作家身份为代价的。

My long meandering walks are not something I do at the expense of being a writer.

这是我成为一个好作家不可或缺的一部分。

That is an integral part of me being a good writer.

我知道这一点，因为我的最佳句子中有40%并不是在键盘上写出来的。

And I know this because 40% of my best sentences, I didn't write at the keyboard.

我是在散步时写下的。

I wrote on walks.

我随身带着一个笔记本。

I carry a notebook with me.

我会把那些想法记下来，以免忘记，然后继续散步。

I jot that stuff down so I don't lose it, and then I get back to the walk.

这本书的灵感也是在散步时产生的。

And the idea for this book came on a walk.

确实如此。

It did.

有趣的是，我当时其实正在忙我上一本书《变革之王》的推广计划。

And and and the funny thing is I was actually I was working on my prior book, master of change.

我正在制定宣传方案。

I was working on the promotional plans.

书已经写完了，但那本书还没出版。

So the book had been written, but it was before that book came out.

我当时卡住了。

And I was stuck.

我正在为《纽约时报》写一篇基于这本书的评论文章，但完全卡在了那篇文章上。

I was working on an op ed for the New York Times, an adaptation from the book, and I was wholly stuck on the op ed.

于是我想，好吧，我要践行我所宣扬的。

So I said, you know, I'm gonna practice what I preach.

我要去散个步。

I'm gonna go take a walk.

在那次散步中，我并没有解决那篇评论文章的问题，但却产生了写这本书的想法，而我们现在就在进行这场对话。

And on that walk, I didn't solve the op ed problem, but I had the idea for this book, and here we are having the conversation.

让我们短暂休息一下，听听今天赞助商的信息。

Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

当你经营一家小企业时，雇对人至关重要。

When you're running a small business, hiring the right person can make all the difference.

合适的员工能提升你的团队，提高生产力，并将你的业务推向新的高度。

The right hire can elevate your team, boost your productivity, and take your business to the next level.

但找到这样的人本身可能就像一份全职工作。

But finding that person can feel like a full time job in itself.

这就是LinkedIn招聘的用武之地。

That's where LinkedIn jobs comes in.

他们的新AI助手通过为你匹配真正符合需求的顶尖候选人，消除了招聘中的猜测成分。

Their new AI assistant takes the guesswork out of hiring by matching you with top candidates who actually fit what you're looking for.

它不再让你逐份筛选简历，而是根据你的标准过滤申请者，突出最匹配的人选，帮你节省数小时时间，在合适的人选出现时快速行动。

Instead of sifting through piles of resumes, it filters applicants based on your criteria and highlights the best matches, saving you hours and helping you move fast when the right person comes along.

最棒的是，这些优秀的候选人已经都在LinkedIn上。

The best part is that those great candidates are already on LinkedIn.

事实上，通过LinkedIn招聘的员工至少留任一年的可能性比通过主要竞争对手招聘的员工高出30%。

In fact, employees hired through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor.

一次就招对人。

Hire right the first time.

请前往linkedin.com/studybill免费发布职位，然后推广你的职位以使用LinkedIn Jobs的新AI助手，更轻松快捷地找到顶尖候选人。

Post your job for free at linkedin.com/studybill, then promote it to use LinkedIn jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates.

免费发布职位请访问linkedin.com/studybill。

That's linkedin.com/studybill to post your job for free.

条款和条件适用。

Terms and conditions apply.

十亿美元级别的投资者通常不会把资金存放在高收益储蓄账户中。

Billion dollar investors don't typically park their cash in high yield savings accounts.

相反，他们常常采用机构投资者常用的被动收入策略——私人信贷。

Instead, they often use one of the premier passive income strategies for institutional investors, private credit.

现在，得益于Fundrise收入基金，这一相同的被动收入策略已向所有规模的投资者开放，该基金已吸引超过6亿美元投资，分配收益率为7.97%。

Now the same passive income strategy is available to investors of all sizes, thanks to the Fundrise Income Fund, which has more than $600,000,000 invested and a 7.97% distribution rate.

随着传统储蓄利率下滑，私人信贷在过去几年中成长为万亿美元资产类别也就不足为奇了。

With traditional savings yields falling, it's no wonder private credit has grown to be a trillion dollar asset class in the last few years.

访问fundrise.com/wsb，只需几分钟即可投资Fundrise收入基金。

Visit fundrise.com/wsb to invest in the Fundrise Income Fund in just minutes.

该基金在2025年的总回报率为8%，自成立以来的平均年总回报率为7.8%。

The fund's total return in 2025 was 8% and the average annual total return since inception is 7.8%.

过往业绩并不预示未来表现。

Past performance does not guarantee future results.

截至2025年1月20日12:30的当前分配收益率。

Current distribution rate as of twelvethirty onetwenty twenty five.

投资前请仔细考虑投资材料，包括目标、风险、费用和开支。

Carefully consider the investment material before investing, including objectives, risks, charges, and expenses.

更多相关信息可在fundraise.com/income的收入基金招募说明书中找到。

This and other information can be found in the income funds prospectus at fundraise.com/income.

这是一则付费广告。

This is a paid advertisement.

2026年，你终于要行动了。

2026 is the year you finally do it.

这一年，你不再只是空想，而是真正将它变为现实。

The year you stop sitting on that idea and actually turn it into something real.

我们都有自己的技能、想法和副项目，知道它们本可以做得更好，但梦想与行动之间的差距，就在于迈出第一步。

We all have skills, ideas, and side projects we know could be more, But the difference between dreaming and doing is taking that first step.

Shopify为你提供了在线和线下销售所需的一切工具。

Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person.

数百万企业家，包括我自己，都已经迈出了这一步，从家喻户晓的大品牌到刚刚起步的初创者。

Millions of entrepreneurs, including myself, have already taken this leap from massive household brands to first time founders just getting started.

使用Shopify，打造你的梦想店铺非常简单。

With Shopify, building your dream store is simple.

你可以从数百个精美的模板中选择，并自定义以匹配你的品牌。

You can choose from hundreds of beautiful templates and customize them to match your brand.

设置也非常快速。

Setup is fast too.

内置的AI工具可以撰写产品描述，甚至帮助编辑产品图片。

With built in AI tools that write product descriptions and even help edit product photos.

随着你的成长，Shopify也会与你一同成长，帮助你从一个仪表板处理更多订单并拓展到新市场。

And as you grow, Shopify grows with you, helping you handle more orders and expand into new markets all from one dashboard.

在2026年，别再等待，立即用Shopify开始销售。

In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify.

注册每月1美元的试用版，今天就开始在shopify.com/wsb上销售。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/wsb.

前往shopify.com/wsb。

Go to shopify.com/wsb.

就是shopify.com/wsb。

That's shopify.com/wsb.

今年新年，让Shopify陪伴你听到第一声订单。

Hear your first this new year with Shopify by your side.

好的。

Alright.

回到节目上来。

Back to the show.

我觉得有趣的是，你研究了这方面的科学，我肯定会对此着迷。

I thought it was interesting that you you look at some of the science of this, and I I'll no doubt gobble this.

但我觉得你是在说，当你做一些像散步、轻度游泳或轻度瑜伽之类的事情时，这些活动需要足够的协调性，从而占据了大脑中负责费力思考的部分——比如我们写作、分析股票或类似活动时所用的那部分大脑。

But I think you were saying that when you do things like walking or a light swim or light yoga or something, it it requires enough coordination that it occupies the parts of the brain that are responsible for the kind of effortful thinking that we use when we're writing or, you know, analyzing stocks or whatever it might be.

所以它让你的思维得以自由漫游。

So so it allows your mind to wander.

我觉得这非常有趣。

I thought that was really interesting.

是的。

Yeah.

长期以来，研究人员一直认为这是血流问题，认为通过散步、游泳或锻炼，血流增加有助于提升创造力和解决问题的能力。

For the longest time, the researchers thought this was a blood flow issue and that by by taking a walk or swimming or exercising, you had increased blood flow that that helped with the creativity and problem solving.

但这种机制和生理学原理始终说不通，而且也无法解释为什么我们在淋浴时、手指在墙上划动时也会产生这些想法。

But the mechanics, the physiology of that just never really made sense, and it also doesn't explain the phenomenon of why we have these thoughts when we're drive finger in the shower.

因为当你静坐或站在淋浴间里，甚至在车里时，并不会增加血流量。

Because you're not having increased blood flow when you're sitting still or standing still in the shower or certainly not in a car.

但所有这些活动的共同点，正如你所说的那样。

But what all these activities have in common is just what you said.

它们都相当自动化，你不需要太费力地去思考走路、淋浴或开车这些事。

They're fairly implicit, so you don't have to think too hard about walking or showering or driving.

但你又必须稍微关注一下自己在做什么，以占据大脑中负责费力思考的部分，又不至于让它们过度紧张。

But you have to think just enough about what you're doing to occupy those effortful thinking parts of your brain without stressing them too much.

正是这种完美的平衡，让你的默认模式网络——也就是你潜意识的另一种说法——得以启动，从而产生那些突破性的想法。

And it's that perfect mix that allows your default mode network, which is just a fancy way of saying your subconscious mind to come online and have those breakthrough moments.

当你散步十分钟、淋浴五分钟，或者在下班乘坐地铁回家时，你会在微观层面上看到这种现象；但在更宏观的周期中，你也能观察到它。

You see this in a micro sense when you take a ten minute walk or a five minute shower or you're on the the subway home from work, But you also see this in more macro cycles.

这本书里我最喜欢的一个故事是关于林-曼努埃尔·米兰达的，他是《汉密尔顿》这部大获成功的百老汇音乐剧的创作者。

One of my favorite stories from the book is, Lin Manuel Miranda, the the playwriter in the Heights in in in Hamilton, the smash Broadway hit.

《汉密尔顿》的创意是在他度假时浮现的。

The idea for Hamilton came to him on a vacation.

他将此归功于休假、远离工作、阅读切尔诺的《汉密尔顿传记》——他读这本书并不是为了为剧作做研究，而是因为朋友推荐了这本传记。

He credits taking a vacation, stepping away from work, reading Chernow's biography of Hamilton, not reading it because he was doing research for a play, reading it because it was a biography that was recommended to him from a friend.

在度假期间，他突然灵光一现：我应该把汉密尔顿的故事改编成一部百老汇音乐剧。

And on vacation, it just clicked that, oh, I should I should reenact Hamilton as a Broadway musical.

想象一下，如果米兰达没有允许自己休息，他会说：我必须继续努力。

Imagine if Miranda wouldn't have allowed himself to take a break because he would have said, I need to push.

我想成为世界级的音乐总监和剧作家。

And I wanna be a world class wanna be a world class musical director and playwright.

我不能请两周假。

I can't take two weeks off.

但正是这两周的休息，让他获得了职业生涯中最大的突破。

But by taking those two weeks off, he had the biggest breakthrough of his career.

我敢肯定，正在听这个节目的投资者们都曾有过这样的经历：当你终于停下来休息时，那个灵光乍现的点子突然出现了。

And and I'm sure investors that are listening to this show have all had the experience of just having that rain making idea that came when you finally took a break.

是的

Yeah.

当然

Absolutely.

当然

Absolutely.

我记得我有个朋友，是个不错的对冲基金经理，他曾告诉我，他计划去参加一个二十三天的冥想静修。

I I remember a friend of mine who's a good hedge fund manager saying to me at one point, yeah, I'm planning to go on this twenty three day meditation retreat.

所以，我的意思是，冥想确实很多。

So, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of meditation.

有很多在大自然中散步。

There's a lot of walking in nature.

是的。

There's yeah.

我认为，这正是我觉得顶尖投资者如此有趣的原因——他们非常务实，善于利用任何有效的方法。

It's it's I I I think that's one reason why I find investors, the best investors, so interesting is that they're they're so pragmatic in basically taking advantage of anything that works.

他们并不真的在意教条。

They don't really care about dogma.

他们就是觉得，好吧。

They're like, okay.

如果科学证明这会有帮助，那我就直接用。

If, if the science shows that this will help, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna take it.

我还在你的书中注意到一点，关于我们可以用来取得成功的各种工具，这也是投资者大量使用的一种方法，那就是持续采取小步骤，最终带来巨大收益——这显然正如你在书中所解释的，与复利法则密切相关。

One of the things I I was also struck by in your book in terms of different tools that we can use to become successful, that also is something that that investors use a great deal, is this whole idea of small steps that you take regularly that lead to big gains, which is obviously something that is very very much about the law of compounding as you explain in the book.

你能谈谈一致性的重要性，以及将大目标分解为小步骤的重要性吗？

Can you talk about this sense of of the importance of consistency, the importance of breaking down big goals into smaller steps?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这对你的听众来说会很容易理解。

I mean, this this will be easy for your audience, I think.

如果你想积累财富，比如说想从一百万美元增加到一千万美元，你可以孤注一掷，碰碰运气，也可以随着时间推移进行一系列小额投资，让这些明智的小额投资以高概率回报的方式不断复利增长。

Because if you wanna generate wealth and you wanna, you know let's say, wanna go from 1,000,000 to $10,000,000, you can make one enormous bet and hope for the best, or you could make a bunch of small investments over time and have those small, smart investments with a high probability of return compound.

也许有几位听众曾经做过这样的重大押注。

And maybe you've got a couple listeners that have made that one big bet.

但我猜大多数人会说：不会。

But my guess is most people would say, no.

你选择复利这条路。

You take the compounding route.

这才是创造财富的方式。

Like, that's how you generate wealth.

这才是让你的投资组合取得进展的方法。

That's how you make progress in your portfolio.

同样的规律也适用于任何领域的进步。

That same law applies to making progress in anything.

我们往往太容易被那种英雄般的某一天、英雄般的某一周，或者极度投入的状态所迷惑，而真正带来持久卓越的，其实是坚定不懈的持续性。

I think that we all too often fall for, like, having a heroic day or a heroic week or being super intense when what leads to sustainable lasting excellence is is really a resolute, relentless consistency.

所以，关键在于日复一日地坚持，不断向银行存款。

So it's showing up day in and day out and making deposits in the bank.

而这其中的一部分，就是你在状态差的时候做什么。

And part and parcel of this is is what you do on your bad days.

我称之为提升底线。

I call it raising the floor.

我认为你在状态差时的所作所为， arguably 比你在状态好时的行为更重要，因为状态好的日子是神奇的。

I think what you do on your bad days is arguably more important than what you do on your great days, because great days are magical.

就我们对人类表现的了解而言，要刻意制造出一个状态极佳的日子是非常困难的。

For all that we know about human performance, it's very hard to engineer a great day.

你知道的？

You know?

只要你坚持基本功，日复一日地坚持，这样的日子自然会到来。

If you commit to the fundamentals and you show up day in and day out, they're just gonna happen.

当它们发生时，你就去享受它们，顺势而为。

And when they do, you enjoy them and you ride the wave.

但状态差的日子，我们是有很大掌控权的。

But bad days, we have a lot of agency over.

当我们表现不佳、状态不好时，如何让这些糟糕的日子变得好一点点？

So when we're not performing our best, when we're not feeling great, how can we make those bad days just a little bit better?

与其陷入恶性循环、夸大灾难，我们该如何把糟糕的日子扼杀在萌芽状态？

Instead of spiraling and catastrophizing, how can we nip those bad days into the butter?

我们如何防止糟糕的一天演变成糟糕的一周？

How can we prevent a bad day from turning into a bad week?

我们如何防止糟糕的一周演变成糟糕的一个月？

How can we prevent a bad week from turning into a bad month?

从投资的角度来看，如果我没说错的话，这就像在市场低迷时，你肯定会亏钱。

In investment terms, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's kind of like in a really rough market, you're gonna lose.

但你如何比竞争对手亏得更少？或者如何最小化你的损失？

But how can you lose less than the competition, or how can you minimize your losses?

长期来看，那些在低迷市场中能最小化损失的基金，表现并不逊色于那些在牛市中大获全胜的基金。

And over time, the fund that can minimize their losses in rough markets performs just as well as the fund that crushes a good market.

任何人都能在牛市中大获全胜。

Anyone can crush a good market.

任何人都能在状态好的日子表现出色，但卓越的一部分也在于从糟糕的日子里多榨取一点价值。

Anyone can perform great on their great days, but a part of excellence is also getting a little bit more out of your bad days.

这一切都凝聚在这样一个观念中：点滴的坚持最终会汇聚成巨大的成就。

And that's all wrapped up in this notion of consistency little by little becomes a lot.

你只需持续不断地一点点推进，日复一日的工作可能看似平凡，每日的进步有时甚至难以衡量，但复利效应最终会带你走向非凡的成果。

You just constantly chip away, and the day to day work can seem mundane, and the day to day progress sometimes isn't even measurable, but the compounding effect gets you to something huge.

是的。

Yeah.

我在《更富有、更睿智、更快乐》一书中专门写了一章，探讨顶尖投资者的高效习惯，其中的典范人物之一就是经营马克尔公司的汤姆·盖纳，他手下有大约两万名员工。

I I wrote a chapter on high performance habits among great investors in richer wiser happier, and the emblem of it in many ways is Tom Gaynor who runs Markel Corporation, has about 20,000 employees.

我始终记得在新冠疫情期间打电话给他，为我的书核实事实，问他当时是如何应对的，他做了些什么。

And I always remember calling him during COVID to fact check the book and asking him how he was handling it, what he was doing.

他一如既往地每天去办公室上班。

And he he very characteristically, he was going into the office every day.

当时公司总部办公室里只有大约九个人，但他觉得他必须到场，因为他的许多员工都在外奔波，身处艰难的环境中。

There were only something like nine people in the office, I think, in their headquarters, but he he felt he needed to show up because they had lots of people who were, you know, out in their businesses exposed, you know, in difficult situations.