TIP603：更富有、更智慧、更快乐，2024年第一季度，与斯蒂格·布罗德森和威廉·格林

芒格说：你能想象那两个人有多正直吗？他们竟然把所有钱都退了回去？

Munger said, Can you imagine those two guys, how ethical they were that they did that, that they returned all of that money?

这种行为真是非同寻常。

What an unusual piece of behavior that was.

我想，查理最喜欢这本书的这一点，就是关于尼克和扎克的这一章，因为他们代表了一种截然不同的商业方式。

I mean, that was one of the things Charlie liked most about the book, I think, the chapter about Nick and Zach, because they represented this different way of doing business.

在一个让查理深感厌恶的行业里，人们往往为糟糕的产品收取过高费用，这些产品过于复杂且只为自己谋利。

In an industry that kind of appalled Charlie in many ways, because people were overcharging for lousy products that were too complex and self serving.

而这两个人却拥有一个非常简单的产品，一个非常简单的投资工具，它根本不是为了最大化他们的资产管理规模或收费。

Here were these guys who had this very simple product, this very simple vehicle that wasn't designed to maximize their assets under management or their fees.

它只是被最大化了。

Was just maximized.

它被优化为实现卓越的业绩，把一美元变成十美元，而他们决定要以道德的方式对待他人，彼此也以道德相待。

It was optimized to get great performance and to turn a dollar into $10 And they decided they were just going to treat people ethically and treat each other ethically.

这给查理留下了深刻的印象。

And that really impressed Charlie.

所以我认为，随着你人生的成长，让你印象深刻和感兴趣的事情也会发生变化。

And so I think as you evolve in your own life, the things that impress you and interest you just change.

也许是一些早期由自我驱动的东西，比如我希望别人注意到我，希望我胜过那些家伙，希望我比我的兄弟更强。

Maybe some of that early ego driven stuff where you're just like, I hope people notice me and I hope I beat these other guys and I hope I'm better than my brother.

我希望获得更多点击量，更多……这部分我依然存在。

I hope I get more clicks or more There's still that part of me.

我的意思是，它并没有完全消失，但不再那么贪得无厌了。

I mean, it's not like it's all gone, but it's less insatiable.

而去做一些有益、有帮助的事情的愿望变得更为突出。

And a desire to do something that's good and helpful becomes much more prominent.

因此，关注像尼克和扎克这样的人，某种程度上是在倡导一种更友善、更正派、更体面的资本主义形式。

And so focusing on people like Nick and Zack is a way of, in a way, promoting a different form of capitalism that's kinder, more decent, more honorable.

二十年前，我一定会对此翻白眼。

So I would have rolled my eyes at that twenty years ago.

我会想：真的吗？你居然要站在讲台上宣扬如何更体面地做事？我过去更倾向于揭露资本主义阴暗面，因为那样让我感觉良好，仿佛能打压别人。

Would have thought, really, you're going be out there on your soapbox proselytizing for how to do things more honorably, I would have been exposing the scummier side three:thirty of capitalism because it would have made me feel good to kind of take people down.

因为我觉得我当时可能更有

Because I think I probably had more of a

一种怨气。

chip on my shoulder back then.

让我们短暂休息一下，听听今天的赞助商。

Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

好的。

Alright.

我想让你们想象一下，在夏天最盛的时候在奥斯陆待上三天。

I want you guys to imagine spending three days in Oslo at the height of the summer.

你有漫长的白昼、绝佳的美食、漂浮在奥斯陆峡湾上的桑拿房，而且你所有的对话对象都是真正塑造未来的人。

You got long days of daylight, incredible food, floating saunas on the Oslo Fjord, and every conversation you have is with people who are actually shaping the future.

这就是奥斯陆自由论坛。

That's what the Oslo Freedom Forum is.

从2026年6月1日开始，奥斯陆自由论坛将迎来它的第十八年，汇聚来自世界各地的活动家、技术专家、记者、投资者和创造者。

From June 1 through the third twenty twenty six, the Oslo Freedom Forum is entering its eighteenth year bringing together activists, technologists, journalists, investors, and builders from all over the world.

他们中的许多人正活跃在历史的最前沿。

Many of them operating on the front lines of history.

在这里，你可以亲耳听到人们如何使用比特币应对货币崩溃，如何利用人工智能揭露人权侵害，以及在审查和威权压力下构建技术的故事。

This is where you hear firsthand stories from people using Bitcoin to survive currency collapse, using AI to expose human rights abuses, and building technology under censorship and authoritarian pressures.

这些不是抽象的概念。

These aren't abstract ideas.

这些都是现实中的人们正在使用的工具。

These are tools real people are using right now.

你将与大约2000位非凡的人物同处一室——持不同政见者、创始人、慈善家、政策制定者，这些是你不仅会聆听，还会共进晚餐的人。

You'll be in the room with about 2,000 extraordinary individuals, dissidents, founders, philanthropists, policymakers, the kind of people you don't just listen to but end up having dinner with.

在三天里，你将体验到震撼人心的主舞台演讲、关于自由科技和金融主权的动手工作坊、沉浸式艺术装置，以及在会议结束后仍持续进行的深入对话。

Over three days, you'll experience powerful main stage talks, hands on workshops on freedom tech and financial sovereignty, immersive art installations, and conversations that continue long after the session's end.

这一切都将在六月的奥斯陆举行。

And it's all happening in Oslo in June.

如果这听起来像是你理想中的场合，那你可真幸运，因为你可以亲自到场参加。

If this sounds like your kind of room, well, you're in luck because you can attend in person.

标准票和赞助者票可在 oslofreedomforum.com 购买，赞助者票提供深度参与、私人活动以及与演讲者的小团体交流时间。

Standard and patron passes are available at oslofreedomforum.com with patron passes offering deep access, private events, and small group time with the speakers.

奥斯陆自由论坛不仅仅是一场会议，它是一个理念与现实交汇的地方，

The Oslo Freedom Forum isn't just a conference, it's a place where ideas meet reality one:fifty and

未来正由亲历者们在此构建。

where the future is being built by people living it.

你是否曾想探索在线交易的世界，却一直不敢尝试？

Ever wanted to explore the world of online trading, but haven't dared try?

期货市场如今比以往任何时候都更加活跃，而 Plus500 是理想的入门之选。

The futures market is more active now than ever before and plus 500 is the perfect place to start.

Plus500 让你接触多种多样的交易品种。

Plus five hundred gives you access to a wide range of instruments.

标普500、纳斯达克、比特币、天然气，还有更多。

The S and P five hundred, NASDAQ, Bitcoin, gas, and much more.

探索股票指数、能源、金属、外汇、加密货币及其他领域。

Explore equity indices, energy, metals, Forex, crypto, and beyond.

通过简单直观的平台，您可以随时随地通过手机进行交易。

With a simple and intuitive platform, you can trade from anywhere, right from your phone.

最低存入100美元，体验您一直期待的快速便捷的期货交易。

Deposit with a minimum of $100 and experience fast accessible futures trading you've been waiting for.

看到交易机会了吗？

See a trading opportunity?

一旦您的账户开通，只需两步点击即可进行交易。

You'll be able to trade it in just two clicks once your account is open.

不确定自己是否准备好了？

Not sure if you're ready?

没关系。

Not a problem.

Plus500为您提供无限时长的免费模拟账户，内含图表和分析工具，供您练习使用。

Plus500 gives you an unlimited risk free demo account with charts and analytic tools for you to practice on.

凭借二十多年的丰富经验，Plus500是您通往市场的门户。

With over twenty years of experience, Plus 500 is your gateway to the markets.

访问 plus500.com 了解更多信息。

Visit plus500.com to learn more.

期货交易存在亏损风险，并不适合所有人。

Trading in futures involves risk of loss and is not suitable for everyone.

并非所有申请人都能通过审核。

Not all applicants will qualify.

Plus 500，交易更胜一筹。

Plus 500, it's trading with a plus.

现在每一家企业都在问同一个问题。

Every business is asking the same question right now.

我们如何

How do

才能让人工智能真正为我们所用？

we make AI actually work for us?

可能性无穷无尽。

The possibilities are endless.

猜测风险太高，但袖手旁观也不是选项，因为你的竞争对手已经在行动了。

Guessing is too risky, but sitting on the sidelines, that's not an option either because your competitors are already making their move.

使用甲骨文的NetSuite，今天就能让AI为你工作。

With Netsuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work today.

NetSuite是超过43,000家企业信赖的头号AI云ERP系统。

Netsuite is the number one AI cloud ERP trusted by over 43,000 businesses.

它将你的财务、库存、电商、人力资源和客户关系管理整合为一个统一的真实数据源。

It brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into one single source of truth.

而这种互联互通的数据，正是让你的AI变得更聪明的关键。

And that connected data is what makes your AI smarter.

它不靠猜测，它真正了解。

It doesn't guess, it knows.

它自动化日常任务，提供真实洞察，帮助你降低成本并自信决策。

It automates routine tasks, delivers real insights, and helps you cut costs and make decisions with confidence.

现在，借助NetSuite的AI连接器，你可以将任意选择的AI接入你真实的业务数据。

And now with Netsuite's AI connector, you can use the AI of your choice plugged into your actual business data.

问任何你曾经想过的问题，比如关键客户、现金状况、库存趋势。

Ask any question you've ever had, key customers, cash on hand, inventory trends.

看看你的竞争对手能不能做到这一点。

Let's see your competitors do that.

我用这个，你也应该用。

I use this and you should too.

如果你的年收入达到七位数，免费获取这份揭秘人工智能的商业指南，访问 netsuite.com/tip。

If your revenues are at least in the 7 figures, get the free business guide, demystifying AI at netsuite.com/tip.

这份指南免费提供，访问 netsuite.com/tip 即可领取。

The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/tip.

斯蒂格，好了，回到节目。

Stig All right, back to the show.

威廉，让我再为尼克和萨格这一章多补充一些细节。

William, if I can just paint a bit more color around this chapter with Nick and Sag.

威廉，我不知道这是否让你感到惊讶。

And I don't know if it surprised you, William.

显然，你为这本书采访了很多人，但我听到大家主要讨论的是第六章，这一点非常能说明问题，这一章讲的是尼克和萨格。

Obviously, you spoke with a lot of people about your book, but what I hear people mainly talking about is chapter six, which is very telling here, which is about Nick and Saag.

对于那些不像我这么痴迷的人来说，可能会说：‘哇，这太厉害了。’

For those of you who are not as nerdiest as me, it's like, Oh, that's so much.

这是书中的第六章。

Chapter six of the book.

也许你没读过，或者读过但记不清了，其实不记得所有章节的内容也无妨。

Perhaps you haven't read or perhaps you have, and it's probably healthy, you don't remember what all the chapters are all about.

尼克和扎克有着非凡的投资业绩。

So Nick and Zach has this amazing track record.

十三年来，他们的基准是MSCI全球指数。

Over thirteen years, their benchmark is MSCI World Index.

指数回报了117%，而他们的投资组合——正如你所说，主要由亚马逊、好市多和伯克希尔组成，还有一些其他仓位——回报率更高，达到了921%。

They returned 117 or the index returned and they returned in their portfolio, which is mainly Amazon, Costco, and Berkshire, like you said, few other positions, but those are the three big positions, nine twenty one.

所以他们的回报率简直惊人。

So the return was just amazing.

然后，当他们能够通过绩效费来变现所有这些资金时，由于绩效费很低，他们决定关闭基金，可能是因为你提到过，尼克想旅行并多花点时间陪孩子。

Then whenever they could chart all this money in performance fees, because it was poor performance fees, they decided to close down the fund, probably because I think you mentioned that Nick wanted to travel and spend some time with his kids.

就像我们在节目中常说的，你不需要财富自由二十次。

Like we say here on the show, you don't need to be financially independent 20 times over.

只要你财富自由一次，那就足够了。

If you're financially independent once, that's enough.

威廉，是的。

William Yeah.

他们想退出，以便以一种创造持久价值的方式把钱回馈给社会。

And they wanted to quit so they could give back the money to society in a way that created enduring value.

扎克曾经对我说，我觉得我们已经解决了投资的问题。

And Zach said to me at one point, he said, I felt like we had solved the problem of investing.

我们找到了最佳的商业模式。

We'd figured out the best business model.

我们弄清楚了什么才是有效的。

We'd figured out what worked.

如果我们继续下去，情况就会变得像重复冲洗一样。

And it would have been a bit more like rinse and repeat if we had just kept going.

我的意思是，关于这一点我还能说更多，但我其实不太想说，不过我觉得尼克本来会乐意再坚持一段时间的。

And I mean, there's more about this that I could say that I don't really want to say, but I think Nick would have happily gone on a little longer.

我认为扎克出于各种个人原因和智力上的考虑，某种程度上希望结束这一切，转而专注于家庭之类的事情。

I think Zach, for various personal reasons and for intellectual reasons, kind of wanted to be done and to focus on family and the like.

这也很有意思，对吧？

So that's interesting as well, right?

这关乎的是解决问题。

It was about the solving of the problem.

对他们来说，这并不是为了最大化金钱收益。

It wasn't about the maximizing of money for them.

这非常独特。

And that's very idiosyncratic.

因此，这再次引出了真实性的问题。

And so that gets again at this issue of authenticity.

尼克和扎克之所以让你感到震撼，是因为他们以一种非常固执的方式行事，他们说：不，我们就按自己的方式来。

One of the reasons why Nick and Zach make you go strong is because they operated in such a ornery way where they were like, no, we're just gonna do it our way.

他们讲过一个很棒的故事，我觉得这本书里有提到：特etra Pak家族的继承人曾请了一些人帮他们打理资金。

And there's this wonderful story that they told that I think is in the book where the heirs to the Tetra Pak fortune had some people managing money for them.

这些人曾来到尼克和扎克工作的切尔西和伦敦办公室。

They came through to the offices in Chelsea and London where Nick and Zach were working.

他们说：是的，我们会投资一大笔钱。

They were like, Yeah, we'll invest a big amount.

我不确定，可能是一亿左右吧。

I don't know, maybe it was a 100,000,000 or something.

那是一笔巨款。

Was a big amount.

但他们希望看到尼克和扎克对每只股票的研究，以便直接利用他们的研究成果为自己服务。

But they wanted to see Nick and Zach's research on each stock so that basically they could piggyback on the research and use it for themselves.

我猜，很多经营小型基金的人会答应这种要求。

And I'm guessing a lot of people who ran a small fund would have said yes to that.

扎克告诉我，他看着尼克越来越被这些人的到来和要求所激怒。

And Zach said to me that he was watching Nick get more and more irritated by these guys coming in and and demanding this.

他说，你知道，尼克是个特别好的人。

And he said, you you know, Nick is such a nice guy.

他坐在那里，交叉着双腿、双臂，越来越烦躁。

And he's sitting there, like, crossing his legs and crossing his arms and getting more and more irritated.

而扎克因为了解他，能看出他越来越不耐烦。

And Zach, because he knows him, can see that he's getting more and more irritated.

他说，大约十五分钟后，尼克直接把他们请出了门。

And he said after about fifteen minutes, Nick just showed them the door.

这难道不是一种非凡的自我觉察吗？

That's an extraordinary piece of self awareness, right?

他们清楚地知道，费用对他们来说并不那么重要，他们更想与理念一致的人合作。

That they knew that the fees didn't matter that much to them, that they wanted to partner with people who were aligned with them.

他们会让人签一份文件，说明他们理解——至少我记得是这样——他们将至少投资五年。

They would get people to sign a piece of paper saying they understood, this is I recall anyway, that they understood that they were gonna invest for basically at least five years.

这并没有任何法律约束力，但它将这个基金、这笔投资置于一种不同的心理空间中，表明它不是关于短期交易的。

And it wasn't binding in any way, but it was placing in a different mental space, this fund, this investment, that it wasn't about short term trading.

这是一件长期的事情。

This is a long term thing.

即使五年，也不算非常长期。

And even five years, not very long term.

他们拥有许多极其长期的机构投资者。

And they had a lot of institutional investors who were extremely long long term.

因此，他们在选择合作伙伴时存在一致性。

So there was an alignment in the way that they chose their partners.

他们在投资类型上也保持一致，这些投资具有非常长的回报周期。

There was an alignment in the type of investments that they had, which had a very long shelf life.

这些公司就像是Costco这样的企业，对吧？

These were companies that were Think of something like Costco, right?

我的意思是，它体现了他们钟爱的商业模式，也就是规模经济共享，对吧？

I mean, it embodies this business model that they loved that was their favorite business model, which is scale economy is shared, right?

因此，随着规模扩大、收入增加，它并没有将所有利润据为己有并分给股东，而是不断为顾客提供更优厚的待遇。

So as it grew in scale, as it had more revenues, instead of pocketing all of that money for itself and giving it to its shareholders, it would give a better and better deal to its customers.

因此，它是在共享规模经济带来的好处。

And so it was sharing those scale economies.

随着这样做，顾客变得越来越忠诚，更加喜爱这家公司，并在那里进行更多的消费。

And as it did that, the customers became more and more loyal, loved the company more, did more business there.

于是，这形成了一种良性循环：规模不再是负担，反而成为了一种优势。

And so it became kind of this virtuous cycle where instead of size becoming an anchor, it became actually a strength.

这其实非常有趣，因为如果你思考一下Costco这种行为所体现的原则，它完全是长期导向的，对吧？

And so it's a really interesting thing, because if you think about the principle that that embodies the way Costco was behaving, it's very long term, right?

这是一种长期的贪婪，而不是像巴菲特所说的短期贪婪。

It's long term greedy rather than short term greedy as Buffett might put it.

所以它的理念是：如果我们推迟满足感，不把尽可能多的利润装进自己的口袋，而是持续保持诚信、不断打造优质产品，最终会惠及所有人。

And so it's saying, well, no, if we defer gratification and we don't line our pockets as much as possible now, and we just keep acting decently and keep creating a great product, in the end, it'll benefit everyone.

他们试图照顾到所有利益相关者，对吧？

They were trying to take care of all of their stakeholders, right?

他们努力让员工感到开心。

They try to keep their employees happy.

他们尽量不残酷压榨合作伙伴和供应商，以免对方讨厌与好市多合作。

They try to not squeeze their partners so brutally, their suppliers so brutally that they're gonna hate doing business with Costco.

尽管显然，与好市多合作是个效率极高且严苛的体验。

Although obviously it's super efficient and tough place to be a partner with.

他们对顾客非常友善。

They treat their customers very well.

而华尔街根本无法接受这一点，对吧？

And Wall Street couldn't stand this, right?

因为这意味着他们的利润率非常低。

Because it meant they had very low margins.

所以当尼克和扎克收购它时，价格非常便宜，因为华尔街无法理解这种长期理念的好处。

And so when Nick and Zack bought it, it was very cheap because Wall Street couldn't understand the benefits of this long term principle.

这种长期策略的核心是注重共享。

And built into that long term approach is a focus on sharing.

你从客户那里获得了丰厚的回报，然后与他们分享这些成果。

It's that you receive these great bounties from your customers, and then you share those spoils with them.

这触及了生活中一种深层次的原则。

And so it gets at a kind of deep principle in life.

因此，尼克和扎克所投资的公司都在延迟满足，以正直和有尊严的方式对待他人。

So the companies that Nick and Zach were investing with were deferring gratification, were treating people decently and honorably.

他们基金的合作伙伴都是着眼于长期、愿意延迟满足的人。

The partners they had in their fund were long term and were deferring gratification.

他们阅读和研究材料的方式与他们的为人是一致的。

The way that they read and studied material research was congruent, was consistent with who they were.

所以扎克曾经对我说，是的，我们会收到大量华尔街的研究报告，让它们堆在那里，偶尔翻看几分钟，然后就会发现这些东西全是垃圾。

So Zach said to me at one point, yeah, we would get all of this Wall Street research and we'd let it kind of gather in a pile and then you'd dip into it once in a while for a few minutes and then you'd realize what rubbish it all was.

然后你就把它们扔进垃圾桶。

You'd tip it into the trash can.

接着你就去自己做研究。

And then you'd go off and you'd just do your own research.

因此，他们一直在进行独立研究。

And so they were doing independent research.

他们走访了大量公司，研究商业模型，并大量阅读。

They were visiting masses of companies and they were studying business models and they were reading a lot.

因此，他们的研究过程与他们的品格一致。

And so their research process was consistent with their character.

他们彼此相处的方式，以及他们构建合伙关系的方式，都与他们的价值观高度一致。

And then the way they treated each other, the way they structured their own partnership was very consistent with their values.

这个合伙关系建立在善意之上。

The partnership was built on kindness.

正如尼克对我说的，善意和良好的行为具有更长的保质期。

And as Nick said to me, kindness has a good behavior has a longer shelf life.

因此，在这个短期主义盛行的世界里，他们选择了长期主义和高质量的路径，而非低质量的路径。

And so all of these things in a world of short termism, they had chose a longer term approach, a high quality approach over the low quality approach.

因此，如果你观察他们，其中一个让你感到敬佩的原因是，即使在他们古怪、特立独行的方方面面——包括他们的办公室——都体现出一种真实感。

And so if you look at them, one of the reasons they make you go strong is that there's an authenticity even in their oddness, their idiosyncrasy in every area of their life, where they had their office.

他们的办公室位于金斯路一家中草药店的楼上。

Their office was above like a Chinese herb store on Kings Road.

其他人都在伦敦梅菲尔的高档办公室里工作。

Everyone else is working in Mayfair in London in like these fancy offices.

而他们却在切尔西一间光线充足、充满艺术和书籍的办公室里工作。

And they're working in this light filled office full of art, full of books in Chelsea.

当我去那里拜访他们时，扎克甚至没有一张办公桌。

And when I went to visit them there, Zach didn't even have a desk.

他真是特立独行，只有一把类似懒人沙发的椅子。

Literally, he's so idiosyncratic that he just has, like, a kinda lazy boy kinda chair.

他们俩的养蜂服就挂在墙上，彼此并排挂着。

And they have, like, their beekeeper suits that both of them had hanging on the wall next to each other.

这两个人是两个非常独特而美好的人，他们不太在乎钱，也不在乎宣传或营销。

So these guys were, like, these two beautiful oddball humans who didn't really care about the money so much and didn't really care about publicity, didn't care about marketing.

他们唯一关心的是这个智力实验：看看我们是否能用一美元变成十美元，同时以非常道德和正直的方式运作。

All they cared about was this intellectual experiment of let's see if we can turn a dollar into $10 and perform in a really ethical, decent way.

当我们解决完这个问题后，再想想如何以一种能为社会创造最持久价值的方式，把钱回馈给社会，同时照顾好我们的家人。

And then once we're done with it and we solve the problem, let's figure out how to give the money back to society in a way that creates the most enduring value for society, while also taking care of our families.

他们并没有发誓过苦行生活，但他们决定自己只需要一定数额的钱，比如x。

It's not like they've taken a vow of poverty, but they decided that there was gonna be a certain number that they, x, that they needed.

超过这个数额的部分，都会全部回馈给社会。

And above that, everything was going back to society.

这种做法有一种美妙的一致性。

So there's something beautifully consistent about that.

我们每个人都会对什么才是真正有价值的东西、我们秉持什么价值观、如何对待他人做出不同的选择。

And all of us are gonna make different decisions about what really is valuable to us, what values we're living by, how we want to treat other people.

但知道尼克和扎克这样的榜样，是非常有帮助的，因为你可以说：我想更像他们那样。

But knowing that there's this example of Nick and Zach is an incredibly helpful thing because you can say, I want to be more like that.

威廉，我们能再多聊聊真实性、价值观和原则之间的交集吗？

William And, William, can we talk a bit more about the intersection between authenticity, values, principles?

我之所以提到这一点，是因为你之前提到过达利欧的《原则》这本书，那真是一本绝佳的书。

And the reason why I bring it up is that you mentioned Dalio's book Principles before, which is just such a wonderful book.

原则的概念，是一种永恒的东西，在所有文化中都会被以相同的方式理解。

The idea of principles, something that is timeless, something that in all cultures would be perceived the same way.

我对此思考了很多。

I thought a lot about that.

在我读你的书时，我也大量思考过，我相信很多读你这本书的人也在想，我该如何应用书中的教诲？

I also thought a lot about, as I was reading your book, I'm sure a lot of people have been reading your book thinking about, how can I apply the teachings from the book?

我认为这对每个人来说都是不同的。

I think it's different for everyone.

我还觉得，这与一个显而易见的事实有关，那就是你所访谈的这些非凡人物，他们的思维方式与大多数人截然不同。

I also think it has to do with the obvious fact that you're speaking to these extraordinary people who are just wired a certain way that not a lot of people are.

比如里克·里德，据我记忆，他似乎没有出现在你的书中。

For example, Rick Rieder, I don't think he was a part of your book, as I remember it.

我们不能简单地走出去说：每天睡四个半小时，真棒。

Don't think we can go out and just say, Four and a half hours sleep, brilliant.

这对我来说已经足够了。

That's enough for me.

有些人能做到这一点。

There are some people who can do that.

或许我们并非所有人都能做到。

Perhaps we probably not all of us can.

是的，可能千分之一吧。

Yeah, may be one in a thousand.

他可能是个生理上的特例。

It may be that he's a physical anomaly.

我曾经帮一位亿万富翁撰写自传，他每天只睡四个小时。

I used to work with this multi billionaire who I helped write his autobiography, and he survived on four hours sleep.

他是个非常非常特别的人。

And he was a very, very unusual man.

他的生理构造非常与众不同。

He was wired very unusually.

你感觉如果他走进一个有地毯和艺术品的商场，身上只带了五千美元，你确信他会带着价值十万美金的东西出来。

You felt like if you went into a market, like a suit or something where they had carpets and artworks, and he went in with $5,000 you knew that he would come out with $100,000 worth of stuff.

他身上有一种非常独特的特质。

There was something very idiosyncratic.

所以，很多内容都关乎于理解你自己的优势。

So a lot of this is about understanding your own strengths.

因此，尼克和扎克有着非常不同的优势。

And so Nick and Zach had very different strengths.

尼克的阅读面非常广泛。

Nick was very broad in his reading.

扎克的阅读范围较窄，更擅长数学。

Zach was narrower and was more mathematical.

所以，对于这些人来说，关键在于理解自己的优势，以及你具备赢得哪种游戏的条件。

So again, with all of these people, it's understanding what your strengths are, what game you're equipped to win.

威廉，威廉，我想聊聊第六章中关于尼克在SAC的那段内容，那是我最喜欢的部分之一，他们谈到了如何构建他们的投资公司。

William William, I wanted to talk about perhaps my favorite part of chapter six here with Nick at SAC, where they talk about the way that they structured their investment company.

故事是这样的：SAC坚持要求尼克拥有投资公司的51%股份，因为如果没有分歧，他们就足够信任尼克，相信他会做出正确的决定。

And so how the story goes is that SAC insisted that Nick should own 51% of their investment firm, because if there wasn't a disagreement, then he trusted Nick enough to make the right decision.

尼克对他说，根本不可能滥用一个几乎把上膛的左轮手枪递到你手里的合伙人。

And Nick said that to him, was impossible to abuse a partner who basically handed him a loaded revolver.

他把枪推过桌子，说：‘你想开枪就开吧，想杀我就杀吧。’

Passed across the table and said, Go on, shoot me if you want me, or shoot me if you like.

我觉得这是一个非常棒的故事。

And I think that's such a wonderful story.

我一直在向每个人，甚至他们的妈妈推荐这本精彩的书。

I've been telling everyone and their mother about this wonderful book.

我不会再恳求你去读了，因为我已经夸过它十次了，但我确实多次提到过这个原则。

I won't beg your blast because I think I already praised it 10 times, but I really have mentioned, especially this principle.

我有一群朋友比另一群朋友更富裕，尤其是那些属于价值投资圈的朋友，这个观点特别能引起他们的共鸣。

I the more affluent my friends I have a group of friends who are more affluent than perhaps another group of friends, and especially if they're part of the value investing community, that part really resonates with them.

他们亲眼见过巴菲特和芒格如何相处，如何成为商业伙伴。

They've seen the way that Buffett and Munger interact and having a business partner.

在这一关系中，查理·芒格一直是 junior partner，当年的结构就是这样。

Charlie Munger in this relationship has been the junior partner, the way that everything was structured back in the day.

这对他们来说很有道理。

It makes a lot of sense to them.

然后我和其他朋友讨论过这个美妙的原则，我认为这个原则甚至超越了文化和时间。

And then I've spoken with other friends about this wonderful principle, which I thought was a principle that perhaps even transcended cultures and time.

他们看着我，最客气的说法是觉得我太天真了——谁会把一把上膛的枪递给别人呢？

And they look at me and at best, they look at me as gullible because who would ever hand someone a loaded gun?

这简直就是三十比三十。我想在这里提一下一件事，听起来可能有点像‘noggin, nigger sack’，但完全不是那个意思，他们很可能都是很棒的人——也许当你有能力负担时，坚持原则就变得很容易，但按定义来说，这根本算不上原则。

That's just thirty:thirty So one of the things I wanted to mention here, which is going to sound perhaps a bit like a noggin, nigger sack, which is not at all, they're probably wonderful human beings, is that perhaps it's easy to have principles whenever you can afford them, which by definition means that they're not principles.

再次强调，请随时质疑我提出这个问题的前提。

And again, please feel free to challenge the very premise of me asking you this question.

丹尼尔，这非常复杂。

Daniel It's very complicated.

我想提醒大家一句本杰明·富兰克林的话，查理·芒格和沃伦·巴菲特经常引用：‘空袋子站不直。’

And I'll remind people of a quote from Ben Franklin that Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett often used, which is an empty sack can't stand straight.

当你身处匮乏之中，感到缺失，感受到生活的贫困时，要挺直腰杆确实很难。

And I think it's difficult when you come from a place of emptiness, when you feel a lack, when you feel a sense of poverty in your own life, it's difficult to stand straight.

他们也用国家层面来讨论这个问题：如果一个国家贫困和无序盛行，那么这个国家很难以正直的方式运作。

And they've talked about this in terms of countries as well, that if a country has a lot of poverty and lawlessness, it's difficult for the country to operate in a really upstanding way.

另一方面，正如盖伊·斯皮尔所说，人们常常对盖伊说：‘看看你多么善良。’

Then there's also this opposite side of it, which is that, as Guy Spier would say, people would often say to Guy, Well, look how kind you are.

你花那么多时间帮助别人，努力待人友善、诚实等等。

Look how much you spend time helping other people and trying to be decent and trying to be honest and stuff.

他们还会说：‘如果我成功了，如果我有钱了，我也会这么做。’

And they would say, If I was successful, if I were rich, I would do that too.

我过去和盖伊讨论时，他的观点是：你必须在真正富有和成功之前，就做出决定要以这种方式行事，然后好事才会随之而来。

And Guy's point when I've had this discussion with him in the past is you have to kind of make the decision before you're really rich and successful that you're going to operate in this way, and then good things tend to follow.

托尼·罗宾斯也曾对我表达过类似的观点，当时他在谈论慈善和公益。

And Tony Robbins once said the same sort of thing to me where he was talking about philanthropy and charity.

他说：‘我可能说得不够准确，但他的意思是，如果你有1000美元时都不愿意捐出10美元，那当你有一百万时，也不会捐出一万美元。’

He was saying, Look, if you I'll get this slightly cobbled, but he was basically saying, If you won't give away $10 when you have $1,000 you're not going to give away whatever 10,000 when you have a million.

你应该在几乎一无所有的时候就开始捐钱和帮助他人。

You start giving money away and helping others when you have almost nothing.

你只是捐出一小部分。

You just give a small amount.

你不需要等到富有之后才开始帮助他人。

You don't wait until you're rich before you start helping others.

我认为，即使我的口袋还不满，我没有充分的富足感，也没有完全的安全感，但依然决定去帮助别人，这需要勇气和信任。

And I think there's an act of courage and trust in deciding that even though my sack is not full, and I don't feel a full sense of abundance, I don't feel fully secure, I'm still gonna help other people.

我依然会努力以正直的方式行事。

I'm still gonna try to operate in a decent way.

我依然会捐出钱款。

I'm still going to give money away.

我认为，荒谬的是，人们反而更看重——我的意思是，这样说很可笑。

I think comically you get more brownie points for I mean, it's a ridiculous way to put it.

荒谬的是，我认为在更困难的时候依然保持良好行为，反而会获得更多认可。

Comically, get more brownie points for operating well when it's harder, I think.

我记得，几年前我曾和克里斯·戴维斯聊过，我想是为了写这本书。

And I remember I mean, I talked to Chris Davis years ago, I think, for the book.

我们最近也在播客中邀请过他讨论芒格。

We also had him on the podcast recently about Munger.

我问了克里斯，他和芒格关系密切，想知道芒格是否有精神信仰，或者他是否属于不可知论者、无神论者之类的。

I was asking Chris, who was close to Munger, about Munger's spiritual beliefs and whether Munger had any religious belief or whether he was agnostic or atheistic or whatever.

他说，他认为对芒格而言，当他不认为自己会在来世得到回报时，依然坚持道德正直地生活，反而让他更加快乐。

And he said that he thought that for Munger, operating in a really moral upright way when he didn't think he was gonna get rewarded in the afterlife actually was kind of made made Munger almost happier.

这有一种苦行僧般的意味。

There was an aspect of wearing a hair shirt.

也就是说，他并不是为了在来世获得回报才这么做。

Like, he wasn't doing it to get his reward in the afterlife.

他这么做，是因为以合乎道德的方式行事本身就是对的。

He was doing it because it was right to behave in an ethical way.

所以我不确定。

And so I don't know.

这种事情是很复杂的。

It's it's complex, this stuff.

但我认为，我鼓励人们不要陷入一种幻觉，认为你应该等到有能力时才去表现得正直、有尊严、有慈善心之类的。

But I think I think I would encourage people not to fall into the delusion that you should wait to behave decently and honorably and charitably and the like.

你知道，我自己也曾经为此挣扎过，对吧？

You know, I wrestled with this myself, right?

因为我的人生中有一些时期，经济上很拮据，曾被裁员，同时还要承担巨额开销——我住在伦敦，两个孩子上私立学校，房租也高得离谱，而伦敦本就是一座极其昂贵的城市。

Because there are times in my life where I was struggling more financially or where I'd been laid off from a job and I had enormous expenses because I was living in London and had two kids in private school and the like and big rent in London and the like, which is a very expensive city.

我感受到了那种匮乏感和恐惧感。

And I felt that sense of lack and that sense of fear.

当我回望那段时光，我很庆幸自己当时做了一些事，现在回头看，我觉得那简直太不理性了。

And when I look back, I'm really glad that I did certain things during that time where I look back and I'm like, that was really irrational, really.

我捐了钱给那个机构，或者做了类似的事——我不是以一种自以为是或自我夸耀的方式说这些。

Gave money to that or I did the I'm not saying in a self righteous way, like a self congratulatory way.

回头想想，那简直有点疯狂。

Look back and I'm like, it was almost kind of nuts.

但事实上，这非常重要，因为它是一种对未来的信任和信念的体现。

But actually, was very important because it was an act of trust and faith in the future.

所以，别等了。

And so, yeah, don't wait.

别等了。

Don't wait.

也不要以为富人捐出财物就真的很容易。

And don't assume that for very rich people, it's really easy to give stuff away.

因为当你帮助他人、试图行善、秉持道德时，你其实是在打破对金钱的沉迷、摆脱对金钱的依赖，以及破除‘金钱会带给你幸福’的幻觉。

Because I think part of what you're doing when you help others and you try to be charitable and you try to act ethically and the like, you're breaking your addiction to money, your dependence on money, your delusion that the money is gonna be the thing that's gonna make you happy.

当你通过捐出一部分钱来放下它时，就会获得一种心理上的自由——你相信未来还会拥有更多。

And when you let go of it by giving some money away, there's kind psychological freedom that comes with that, where you're trusting that there's going to be more.

我经常跟你谈起《佐哈尔》，这部美妙的古代神秘文本，用亚兰文写成，我几乎每天都会读一点。

I often talk with you about the Zohar, this beautiful ancient mystical text, which is written in Aramaic, which I try to read almost every day a little bit of.

其中有一段讲到，做一个给予却依然富足的人。

And there's a bit in it where it talks about being one who gives and yet increases.

我非常喜爱这个理念：你可以进入一种意识状态，成为那个给予却依然富足的人。

And I love that idea that you can tap into this consciousness where you're one who gives and yet increases.

这并不是零和游戏。

It's not a zero sum game.

所以，当你捐出金钱、帮助他人、奉献时间，或做任何类似的事情时，奇怪的是，你竟能进入这样一个系统，最终获得更多的东西。

So as you give money away, or as you help people, or you give your time away or whatever, strangely, you can tap into this system where you end up with more.

你会获得更大的富足，无论你如何定义它——不仅在财务上，还包括你的幸福、人际关系等各个方面。

You end up with greater abundance, however you define it, not just financially, but in terms of your happiness, your relationships, all of these things.

因此，这是一种不同的意识状态，需要一种信念的飞跃，这样做看起来可能有点天真。

And so it's a different type of consciousness and it's a leap of faith and it can seem kind of gullible to do that.

但你和我都曾在自己的商业往来中这样做过，对吧？

But you and I have done this in our business dealings ourselves, right?

我的意思是，当你我最初商议合作制作《更富有、更智慧、更快乐》播客时，因为你对这些事情很坦诚，我不介意向我们的听众透露。

I mean, when you and I were first negotiating to be partners on the Richer, Wise, Happier podcast, I mean, because you are open about these things, I don't mind telling our audience.

你说：‘那我们就根据第一个月的下载量来决定你的报酬吧，因为任何一期节目大部分下载都集中在第一个月。’

Said, well, let's base it the number of what you'll get paid will be based on the number of downloads over the first month, which is when most of the downloads are for any episode.

但我却说：‘不，不，我们按一年的下载量来计算，而且一年内别付我钱。’

And I was like, no, no, let's do it for the number of downloads over a year and don't pay me until after a year.

所以我们是在培养延迟满足。

And so we were building in deferred gratification.

这并不是我想立刻拿到钱。

It wasn't me trying to get money immediately.

我做的是一个工作量巨大的任务，但一年内我一分钱都拿不到。

Was like, I'm doing this job that's a ridiculous amount of work and I'm not gonna get paid a penny for over a year.

当一年后我们开始重新谈判时，我想我给你发了一条消息，大致问了问：我现在的报酬是否合理，是该多一点还是少一点？

And then when we started to renegotiate after a year, I think I just wrote you a message and I sort of said, am I being paid about the right amount or should it be more or should it be less?

你告诉我实际情况，我们就说：好吧。

And you told me, here's the situation and we're like, okay.

我也没有对此提出任何疑问。

And I didn't question it or anything.

后来在某个时候，你告诉我：我给你加10%的报酬，并且追溯生效。

And then at a certain point, you told me, oh, I'm giving you 10% more and I'm making it retroactive.

我们很大程度上是在践行尼克和扎克的精神——延迟满足，并且相信对方会为我着想。

It's like we were very much taking the spirit of Nick and Zach in deferring gratification and operating as if the other person was looking out for us.

所以我们俩都没有试图占对方的便宜。

And so neither of us was trying to get an edge over the other one.

我觉得这种做法有一种美妙之处。

And I think there's something kind of beautiful about that.

我们再过两三年看看，会不会回过头来想，天啊，那时真天真。

And we'll see, we'll see in two or three years' time whether we look back and we're like, God, that was naive.

但我希望不是这样。

But I'm hoping not.

我的意思是，我希望这能成为查理和沃伦彼此相处的模式，也能成为尼克和扎克彼此相处的模式。

I mean, I'm hoping that it's a model of how Charlie and Warren treated each other and a model of how Nick and Zach treated each other.

当我们回望时，会发现这需要你有良好的判断力，并与正直的人合作。

We'll look back and we'll be like, yeah, it requires you to have good judgment and to be partnering with people who are honorable.

我不知道自己是否真的擅长判断这一点。

And I don't know that I'm that good a judge of that.

因此，我也在做出一种略带神秘的判断：我只是觉得，无论你如何理解宇宙或造物主，我都相信自己会得到照顾。

And so I'm also making a slightly sort of mystical judgment where I'm just like, I feel like the universe, the creator, however you want to see it, I feel like I'm going to be taken care of.

我记得，因为我当时就坐在这把椅子上，你说过：‘这就是我想要的关系类型——你报一个数字，我说：好的，同意。’

I do remember, because I was sitting in this very chair and you said, This is the type of relationship that I want to have where you say X number, and I say, Just say yes.

我也曾把这个原则用在其他人身上。

And I've used that principle with other people too.

但我也得说，每次我这么做的时候，并不总是成功的。

But I will also say that it has not always been successful whenever I've done that.

但我认为，如果你和对的人合作，这会是一件非常美妙的事情。

But I think if you team up with the right people, it can be a very one:thirty beautiful thing.

另外，我认为不轻易评判很重要。

Also, I think it's important not to judge.

你之前提到财富如何放大你本来的样子，你之前引用过汤姆·罗宾斯的话。

To your point before about wealth and how it magnifies who you are, you referenced Tom Robbins before.

我觉得那甚至是他的原话，或者说我第一次听到这句话就是从他那里。

Think that's even his quote, or I think that's where I heard it the first time that he really magnifies who you are.

我觉得这是对的。

I think that's true.

但我一直频繁地前往不同的国家。

But I've been traveling to a lot of different countries.

我访问过的一个国家大概是2019年，那时还没发生新冠疫情。

One of the countries that I visited was probably back in 2019, it was before COVID.

我觉得其中一件特别让人压力大的事，我不确定这个例子是否能引起所有听众的共鸣。

I think one of the things that was extremely stressful, and I don't know if this example resonates with all the listeners.

但对于那些去过那里的人，我想可能会有共鸣。

I think it might do for those of you who have visited.

每当你去那里，显然我是个游客，会做些游客常做的事，我和朋友一起去时，总会有人走过来和你搭话。

Whenever you go there, and clearly I'm a tourist and I do touristy things, and I was there with a friend and then someone would walk alongside you and start to chat with you.

在我们去之前，我已经读过相关介绍。

I've read about it already before we got there.

这是一种非常普遍的做法。

There's a very common practice.

作为一个举止得体的丹麦人，当有人问候我‘祝你今天愉快’，或问我吃了什么早餐时，我真的很难不去理会他们。

It's kind of difficult for me wanting to be a well behaved Dane, not If someone's asking me to have a good day and ask me what I had for breakfast or whatever, it's really difficult for me not to ignore them.

如果他们想帮忙，我很难不说：‘是的，你真棒。’

If they wanted to be helpful, it's hard for me not to say, Yes, you're wonderful.

所以技巧在于，那个人会陪你走五分钟，随便多久，然后开始和你聊天。

So the trick is that the person will walk alongside you for five minutes, whatever, start chatting with you.

他可能会说些什么，比如：‘哦，你们要去哪儿？’

Perhaps he's going to say something like, Oh, so where are you going?

然后你会说：‘我要去那个清真寺，之类的。’

And you're going to say, I'm going to this mosque, whatever.

他会说：‘哦，对对，记得，走到街尽头的时候，随便怎样。’

It's like, Oh yeah, yeah, remember, go write whenever you're at the end of the street, whatever.

所以每当你到那儿，他就会告诉你：‘你得为我提供的服务付我X美元。’

So whenever you end there, he's going to tell you, So you need to pay me X amount of dollars for the service that I provided you.

然后你会说：‘什么？’

And you go like, What?

你根本没给我提供任何服务。

You didn't provide me any service.

就像说，不，不，不。

It's like, No, no, no.

你的导游居然要收你30美元或者别的荒谬金额。

Was your tour guide and it's going to be $30 or whatever outrageous amount.

这种事情发生过好多次了。

And you go like, This happened, I don't know how many times.

到处都发生过。

It happened everywhere.

我和朋友去之前读到过这些事，但真的非常不愉快。

And so my friend and I have read about this going there, but it was really unpleasant.

有那么一会儿，我开始担心事情会升级成肢体冲突。

At some point in time, I was starting to get worried that it became a bit physical.

有人围堵我们，还有一群人向我们要钱。

It was people ganging up on us and stuff, and there was a group and they wanted money.

真不怎么样。

Wasn't nice.

我记得离开摩洛哥的时候，那本来是一次很棒的旅行，但我心想，我再也不会回这里了，因为无论我去哪里，都感觉像是被针对的目标。

And I remember leaving Morocco, which otherwise was a great trip, and thinking, I am never going back here, because it kind of felt I was a target everywhere I went or everywhere we went.

直到今天，取决于我当时的心情，我会想，这真是一次美好的旅行，只是遇到了一些不幸的事件。

To this very day, dependent on which mood I'm in, I'm thinking, What a wonderful trip and some unfortunate incidences.

我有时也会想，那些人，尤其是那个群体，他们是坏人吗？还是说这只是他们的工作？

I'm also sometimes thinking, the person that I've been Especially this group, were they bad people or was that their job?

难道只是当时的环境才导致了这一切吗？

Was that just the circumstances that made it so?

如果他们对我说，要收30美元。

And what if they said to me, going to be like $30.

而我说，不，不，不。

And I said, No, no, no.

你真是太好了。

You're so wonderful.

这是100美元。

Here is $100.

那个人会说，不，不，不。

Would that person have said, No, no, no.

你根本不需要付我钱，因为我们有这么美好的连接，所以你不必付钱，真的不用。

You actually don't have to pay me at all, because we have this wonderful connection, so you don't have to pay No.

那个人很可能说，给我一百美元。

The person would probably have said, Give me $100.

我讲这一切的目的并不是要跟你分享我的假期经历，而是想让你更倾向于保持一种更宽容的心态。

And so my point of all of this was not to tell you about my holiday experiences, but just more being in a mindset of being more forgiving.

也许只是那些人所处的环境造成的。

Could just be the circumstances that those people are in.

是的。

Yeah.

我想到一句优美的佛教话语，虽然我不是这方面的专家，但我花了大量时间阅读和研究藏传佛教。

I mean, there's beautiful Buddhist phrase, and I'm no great expert, although I spend a ridiculous amount of time reading and studying Tibetan Buddhism.

有一句很美的说法，讲的是因缘和合。

There's a beautiful phrase where they talk about causes and conditions.

一旦你开始理解那些让人陷入特定境遇并导致其行为方式的因缘条件，你就能对此更加富有同情心。

And once you start to understand the causes and conditions that put someone in a particular circumstance and make them behave that way, you can be much more compassionate about it.

因为你会想，如果我拥有同样的教育、文化、父母和经济状况，我可能会发展出不同的生存技能、不同的优先事项和不同的价值观。

Because you're like, well, if I had had education, the culture, the parents, the financial situation, whatever, I would have developed different survival skills, different priorities, different values, whatever.

你也可以将这种理解因缘条件如何决定每个人行为的方式应用到自己身上，因为你可能会意识到：哦，当时我发脾气了。

And you can apply that sense of understanding the causes and conditions that determine everyone's behavior also to yourself, because you can see, Oh, well, lost my temper in that situation.

表现得非常糟糕。

Behaved in a really poor way.

你仔细想想，确实如此，但那正是我当时所经历的。

You look and you're like, Well, yeah, but this is what I was going through at the time.

而这就是我当时的背景。

And this is the background that I had.

我曾经对我儿子亨利说，我是个好父亲。

I once said to my son, Henry, was a good father.

对吧？

Right?

他说，是的，你当时已经用你拥有的资源尽力了。

And he said, yeah, you did the best that you could with the tools that you had at the time.

这番话真是棒极了，既诚实又聪明、富有深意，但我还不确定他是不是在开玩笑。

And it was wonderful put down that was sort of honest and smart and thoughtful, and I didn't know if he was kind of taking a Mickey.

我看着他，心想：不，他好像挺认真的。

And I looked at him and I was like, no, think he's kind of serious.

所以，是的，我当时已经用我那时拥有的资源和性格尽力了。

So, yeah, I did the best that I could with the tools that I had at the time and the character that I had at the time.

我想说的另一件对我帮助很大的事是，我有一位很棒的老师，卡伦·伯格，她几年前去世了。

The other thing I would say that's been very helpful to me, I had a great teacher, Karen Berg, who passed away a couple of years ago.

她曾说，自己是一个非常宽容、从不评判他人、充满喜悦的人。

And she once said she was a very tolerant, very unjudgmental person, a very joyful person.

她说，我们每个人身上都有好与坏，最坏的人也有许多优点，最好的人也有许多缺点，所以你真的无法轻易评判。

She said, there's so much good in the worst of us and so much bad in the best of us that you really can't judge.

我觉得这非常有帮助，因为这又回到了我们这次对话开头所说的内容：我们每个人内心都充满矛盾与复杂。

And I found that very helpful because again, it kind of goes back to what we were saying at the start of this conversation, that we contain multitudes.

我们每个人都是这些不同方面的集合。

We're all of these different things.

查理可能粗鲁、强硬甚至无礼。

Charlie could be gruff and bruce and rude.

但他那句话中展现出的惊人善意，他多年来对莫尼什、李录等人所表现出的善意，都是如此令人动容。

And yet there's that incredible kindness of that statement that he made, incredible kindness in his behaviour to Monish over many years and to Li Lu and the like.

但昨天我还了解到他另一份惊人的善意——他对那位风险投资家说：‘也许我在投资上比你更出色，但你却是比我更好的父亲。’

But also that incredible kindness just that I learned about yesterday and saying to that venture capitalist, I may have been a better investor than you, but you've been a better father to me.

这是我们未必在公众面前见过的他的一面，因为他有一个截然不同的公众形象。

That's a side of him that we haven't necessarily seen publicly because he has this public face that's different.

所以前几天我和妻子聊到这件事，她因为某人的行为感到不快。

And so for me, I was talking to my wife about this the other day that she was upset by someone's behaviour over something.

我说，我只是对人的期望更低一些。

I said, I just think I have lower expectations of people.

我不期待人们表现得特别好，因为我知道在某些情况下、不同的条件下，我自己也可能表现得很糟糕。

I don't expect people to behave particularly well because I know that under certain circumstances, under different conditions, I can behave pretty poorly.

我的意思是，尤其是在我们承受巨大压力时，我们可能会表现得非常糟糕。

I mean, particularly when we're under great stress, we can behave pretty poorly.

所以，我接下来有一期播客要和丹尼尔·戈尔曼对谈，这期节目可能在你听到这段话时已经发布了，也可能还没发布。

And so one, I mean, I have an upcoming episode of the podcast with Daniel Goleman that may or may not have come out by the time this comes out.

我最近刚和他聊过，他是个非常睿智的人。

I talked to him recently, and he's a very wise man.

我把他当作导师和榜样。

He's someone I kind of regard as a mentor and a role model.

我们讨论了如何真正面对自己的缺点和易怒的倾向等等。

And we talk about this, about how you actually deal with your own flaws and your own combustibility and the like.

他做的一件事极大地帮助了他，那就是长达五十年的冥想。

One of the things that he's done that's just helped him massively is fifty years of meditation.

这使得刺激与反应之间有了更大的间隔——用著名心理学家维克多·弗兰克尔的话来说就是如此。

And it means there's a bigger gap between stimulus and response, to put it in terms that Viktor Frankl, the famous psychologist would use.

会有某种刺激，也就是触发你想要某种行为的诱因，然后才会有相应的反应。

There's a stimulus, the trigger that makes you want to behave in a way, and then there's a response.

在这个空间里，你有机会选择如何回应。

In that space, there's an opportunity to choose how to respond.

但如果你接受过不同的训练，比如学会了冥想、调整呼吸、数数，或者用其他方式为自己创造一些缓冲，你就不太可能做出不好的行为。

But if you've had a different type of training, for example, where you've learned to meditate or you breathe differently or you count or whatever it is, you count down or whatever to give yourself some space, you're less likely to behave badly.

我昨天和一位朋友进行了长时间的交谈，他叫亚当·凯恩，是一位出色的冥想导师，也非常睿智、善良。

And I had a long conversation with a friend of mine yesterday, guy called Adam Kane, who's a wonderful meditation teacher and just a really wise guy, really lovely guy.

如果你看过我与措尼仁波切和丹尼尔·戈尔曼的访谈，就能见到他。

You can see him if you look at my interview with Tsoknyi Rinpoche and Daniel Goleman.

他当时是为措尼仁波切做翻译的人。

He was the guy translating for Tsoknyi Rinpoche.

这是一位非常特别的人。

This is a really special guy.

他告诉我，情绪的浪潮依然会发生。

And he was saying to me, the wave of emotion is still going to occur.

无论你多么成熟，你依然会经历愤怒、悲伤、自我怜悯，或者你特有的那种过度情绪的浪潮。

However evolved you are, you're still going to have that wave of anger or sadness or self pity or whatever it is that's your particular flavor of emotion, of excessive emotion.

他说，即使你变得更加成熟，情绪也不会消失。

He's like, it's not going to disappear because you become more evolved.

他说，你实际上可以与它共处。

He said, you can actually be present with it.

通过足够的训练，你可以在情绪波峰来临时保持觉知，而不做出糟糕的行为。

With a sufficient amount of training, you can be present with it as the wave crests and not behave in a lousy way.

因此，对我来说，这是一个重要的洞见：我们并不会变得如此成熟，以至于不再感受到愤怒、怨恨、嫉妒、悲伤或自我怜悯，或任何属于你个人的情绪模式。

And so that to me is kind of an important insight that it's not that we're going to become so evolved that we're not gonna feel anger or resentment or jealousy or sadness or self pity or whatever our particular flavor of emotion is.

这些情绪依然会存在，但如果我们使用各种技巧，比如冥想，我们会变得更明智、更有能力去应对它们。

It's going to still exist, but we're gonna become wiser at dealing with it, more equipped at dealing with it if we use various techniques like meditation one:thirty

或者呼吸技巧，或者其他任何对你有帮助的方法。

or breathing techniques, whatever else it might be that helps you.

让我们短暂休息一下，听听今天赞助商的广告。

Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

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Ever wanted to explore the world of online trading, but haven't dared try?

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The futures market is more active now than ever before and plus five hundred futures is the perfect place to start.

标普五百期货为您提供广泛的投资工具。

Plus five hundred gives you access to a wide range of instruments.

包括标普500指数、纳斯达克、比特币、天然气等等。

The S and P five hundred, NASDAQ, Bitcoin, gas, and much more.

探索股票指数、能源、金属、外汇、加密货币及其他更多品种。

Explore equity indices, energy, metals, Forex, crypto, and beyond.

通过简单直观的平台，您可以随时随地，直接通过手机进行交易。

With a simple and intuitive platform, you can trade from anywhere, right from your phone.

只需存入100美元起，即可体验您一直期待的快速便捷的期货交易。

Deposit with a minimum of $100 and experience the fast accessible futures trading you've been waiting for.

看到交易机会了吗？

See a trading opportunity?

一旦账户开通，您只需两步点击即可立即交易。

You'll be able to trade it in just two clicks once your account is open.

不确定你是否准备好了？

Not sure if you're ready?

没问题。

Not a problem.

Plus500为您提供无限时长的免费模拟账户，内含图表和分析工具，供您练习使用。

Plus500 gives you an unlimited risk free demo account with charts and analytic tools for you to practice on.

凭借超过二十年的经验，Plus500是您进入市场的门户。

With over twenty years of experience, Plus500 is your gateway to the markets.

访问 plus500.com 了解更多信息。

Visit plus500.com to learn more.

期货交易存在亏损风险，并非适合所有人。

Trading in futures involves risk of loss and is not suitable for everyone.

并非所有申请人都能通过审核。

Not all applicants will qualify.

Plus 500，交易更胜一筹。

Plus 500, it's trading with a plus.

在我加入投资者播客之前，我走的是一条非常传统的金融道路。

Before I joined the investors podcast, I was on a pretty conventional path in finance.

我当时在标普全球工作，同时准备CFA考试，但我一直渴望摆脱朝九晚五的束缚。

I was working at S and P Global studying for the CFA, but I had this fixation on liberating myself from the nine to five grind.

我有过疑虑，但还是毅然跳了出去，结果这成了我做过最好的决定之一。

I had doubts, but I took the leap anyway, and it turned out to be one of the best decisions I've ever made.

全球数百万创业者每年都要面对同样的抉择。

Millions of entrepreneurs worldwide face that same decision every single year.

而让这个决定更容易一些的方法，就是从第一天起就找到合适的合作伙伴。

And one of the things that makes it easier is having the right partner from day one.

对很多人来说，这个伙伴就是Shopify。

For a lot of people, that partner is Shopify.

Shopify是全球数百万企业的电商平台，占美国所有电子商务的10%。

Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in The US.

从Gymshark和Allbirds这样的大品牌，到刚刚起步开第一家店的普通人，都在使用它。

We're talking everything from huge brands like Gymshark and Allbirds to people just getting their first store off the ground.

作为我自己经营生意的人，我特别欣赏这一点。

Here's what I really appreciate as someone who runs a business myself.

Shopify 把所有功能都整合在一个地方。

Shopify puts everything in one place.

而且，如果你遇到任何问题，Shopify 提供获奖的24/7客户支持。

Plus, if you ever get stuck, Shopify has award winning twenty four seven customer support.

他们随时都在为你提供帮助。

They are always around to help.

所以，如果你一直有个创业想法，总在想‘如果怎样’，现在是时候用 Shopify 把这些‘如果’变成现实了。

So if you've been sitting on a business idea wondering what if, it's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify.

今天就去 shopify.com/tip 注册你的每月1美元试用版。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com/tip.

前往 shopify.com/tip。

Go to shopify.com/tip.

就是 shopify.com/tip。

That's shopify.com/tip.

不，这不是你的错觉。

No, it's not your imagination.

风险和监管正在加剧。

Risk and regulation are ramping up.

如今，客户在开展业务前，都要求提供安全证明。

And customers now expect proof of security just to do business.

这就是为什么Vanta是一个变革者。

That's why Vanta is a game changer.

Vanta自动化您的合规流程，将合规风险与客户信任整合到一个AI驱动的平台上。

Vanta automates your compliance process and brings compliance risk and customer trust together on one AI powered platform.

无论您是在准备SOC 2审计，还是在运行企业GRC项目，Vanta都能确保您的安全并推动交易顺利进行。

So whether you're prepping for a SOC two or running an enterprise GRC program, Vanta keeps you secure and keeps your deals moving.

这里有一个让我特别关注的数字。

And here's a number that really stood out to me.

像Ramp和Rider这样的公司，使用Vanta后，审计时间减少了82%。

Companies like Ramp and Rider spend 82% less time on audits with Vanta.

这不仅仅是更快的合规，更是为增长腾出更多时间。

That's not just faster compliance, it's more time for growth.

我很喜欢这一点：超过一万家公司，从初创企业到大型企业，都信赖Vanta来处理这些事务，以便它们能专注于真正推动业务发展的核心工作。

I love that over 10,000 companies from startups to big enterprises trust Vanta to handle this stuff so they can focus on what actually moves the needle.

立即访问 vanta.com/tip 开始使用。

Get started today at vanta.com/tip.

斯蒂格，好的。

Stig All right.

回到节目。

Back to the show.

斯蒂格，我想和你聊聊你刚才提到的关于低期望的事，还有你和你妻子劳伦讨论这个具体情况时的情形。

Stig I wanted to talk to you about what you said there about low expectations and whenever you and your wife, Lauren, were talking about this specific situation.

巴菲特有一句很棒的话：美好婚姻的秘诀就是降低期望。

And Buffett has this wonderful quote that the secret to a good marriage is low expectations.

然后芒格也谈过如何通过好好服务配偶来赢得一位好配偶。

And then Munger had talked about how to get a good spouse to serve a good spouse.

我认为我是从不同的角度来看待这个问题的。

And I think I come at this from different angles.

我非常期待听听你的想法。

I'll be very curious to hear your thoughts.

在职场中，一直让我有点不满的是，有些老板会说：我对别人有很高的期望，但我不会对别人提出自己都无法做到的要求。

And so one of the things that always upset me a bit in corporate life has been bosses who've said, I have really high expectations of other people, but I would never have expectations of them that I wouldn't have for myself.

我一直觉得这种观点很糟糕，因为也许他们拥有公司。

I always felt that's a terrible point because perhaps they have ownership of the company.

无论如何，这种对话的规模可能大了上百倍，他们几乎可以自行决定自己的工作内容，而五层以下的员工却没有这种灵活性，他们之所以有这份工作，只是为了支付房贷和养猫。

In any case, the conversation might be 100 times bigger and they can more or less determine their own job description, whereas another person five tiers down, they just don't have that flexibility and they have a job because they need to pay the mortgage and feed their cats.

我总觉得那种说法——‘是的，我设定很高的期望，但只是我对自己设定的标准，我才用它来要求别人’——很成问题。

Always kind of felt that type of argument of, Yeah, I set high expectations, but only what I said to myself, I can set that to other people.

我觉得这种标准是错误的。

I kind of felt that standard was wrong.

再说一遍，我在这里非常有偏见。

Again, I'm terribly biased here.

威廉，有一个非常有益的观察，来自卡伦·伯格的儿子迈克尔·伯格，我曾经邀请他做客我的播客，他对我来说是一位了不起的导师。

William There's a great observation that's been very helpful to me, which is actually by the son of Karen Berg, Michael Berg, who I had on the podcast, who's been an incredible teacher for me.

我很幸运，拥有一群来自不同灵性和哲学传统的导师，我认为他们通过数个世纪的传承和研习这些古老经典，积累了非凡的智慧。

I've been very lucky in having a set of different teachers from different spiritual and philosophical paths that I think have tremendous wisdom that's been handed down to them through centuries of their lineage and studying these great ancient books.

迈克尔·伯格多年前就说过——我再次邀请他做客播客，我强烈推荐大家去听。

Michael Berg said years ago, and again, had him on the podcast, I'd really encourage people to listen.

他是一位非常睿智的人。

He is a very wise person.

他说，你应该对自己非常严格，但对他人则不必如此。

He said, You should be very precise with yourself and not with others.

因此，当你审视自己的行为和他人的行为时，对自己行为的评判应当远比对他人的行为更加严谨。

And so when you're looking at your behaviour and other people's behaviour, be much more precise in your judgment of your own behaviour than your judgment of other people's behaviour.

这几乎像是对那种观点的反转——即老板必须像员工一样苛责自己。

And so it's almost like an inversion of that focus of saying, the boss has to have beaten himself up in exactly the same way that the employee has to beat himself up.

其实恰恰相反，我应该对自己提出更高的要求，比我对他人行为的期待更加严格。

It's like, no, let me be more demanding of myself, my own behaviour than I expect other people to be in their behaviour.

我认为这很好，因为它让你处于一种位置：不再不断评判他人、抱怨他人，而是为自己负责。

And I think it's good because it places you in a position where instead of constantly judging other people and complaining about other people, you're taking responsibility for yourself.

这本身也带有一种斯多葛主义的意味，对吧？

There's something very stoic about it as well, right?

即控制你能控制的，放手其余的部分。

The idea of controlling what you can control and letting go of the rest.

因此，我在很大程度上可以掌控自己的行为和道德。

And so I can take control to a great degree of my own behaviour and my own ethics.

尽管我有缺陷，尽管我的天性如此，尽管我容易暴躁、易怒、自我怜悯，或拥有这些各种各样的缺点，我依然可以持续改进。

I can keep working on that despite how flawed I am and despite my wiring and despite my tendency to be irascible and to be irritable and self pity or all of these different flaws that I have.

我可以为这些方面承担责任，并不断努力。

I can take responsibility for that and can keep working on it.

而我对他人行为的控制力却非常有限。

Whereas I don't really have control over other people's behaviour.

因此，说‘让我专注于让自己变得更好’，这并非天真，而实际上非常务实。

And so it's not naive, it's actually very pragmatic to say, well, let me focus on trying to become better myself.

还有另外一件非常神秘的事情。

And then there's also this very mysterious thing.

也许这并不神秘，也许这正是最实际、最平凡的事情：当你看到那些行为非常出色的人时，他们会吸引非凡的人进入他们的圈子。

Maybe it's not mysterious, maybe it's like the most practical and mundane thing that when you see people who behave really well, they draw remarkable people into that orbit.

所以请想想珍妮特·洛所著的芒格传记《毫无疑问》中的那句名言，那是巴菲特写的序言。

And so think of that great quote from Janet Lowe's biography of Munger, Damn Right, where Buffett wrote the forward.

他提到，四十年来，我从未见过查理试图占任何人的便宜。

He said something to the effect of, in forty one years, I've never seen Charlie try to take advantage of anyone.

我见过他无数次明知不利仍主动承担最差的一方。

He said, I've seen him knowingly take the worst side of a deal with me and others countless times.

当需要归咎责任时，他承担了更多的责任。

And when there's blame to be apportioned, he takes more of the blame.

当需要给予赞誉时，他接受的赞誉少于他应得的。

When there's credit, he takes less of the credit than he deserves.

如果你以这种方式行事，人们会主动进入你的圈子，愿意与你做生意、与你打交道。

If you have a reputation for operating that way, you're gonna draw extraordinary people into your orbit who want to do business with you, who want to deal with you.

但我们仍不应自欺欺人地认为这些人会是完美的。

And we still shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking that those people are gonna be perfect.

因为像我们一样，他们在某些情况下也会表现得很糟糕。

Because like us, they're deeply flawed under certain circumstances are gonna behave poorly.

也许有一些例外，但我认为大多数人在特定情况下都会表现不佳，比如金钱、离婚、性欲或其他因素，都会扭曲人的价值观和行为。

Maybe there are some exceptions, but I think most people will behave poorly under certain circumstances and things like money or divorce or sexual desire or whatever, have a way of kind of distorting people's values and their behaviour.

因此，在某些情况下，每个人都有可能表现得很糟糕。

So everyone under certain circumstances can behave pretty lousily.

但我认为，这正是汤姆·盖纳所说的那种‘方向正确’的事情。

But I think this is one of those things that as Tom Gayner would say, is directionally correct.

如果你持续以这种方式行事，努力变得更好、不断改进、更加正直、公平、有道德，你就会吸引优秀的人进入你的圈子。

If you keep operating in that way, trying to be better, trying to improve, trying to be more honourable, trying to be fair, trying to be ethical, you're gonna draw great people into your orbit.

所以，这正是我在播客中和莫尼什讨论过的事情，对吧？

And so this is something I spoke to Monish about in the podcast, right?

莫尼什从芒格那里学到的一个重要教训是，有道德实际上是一种开明的利己主义。

One of the great lessons Monish had learned from Munger was that it's actually enlightened self interest to be ethical.

为人正直实际上会让你表现得更好。

To be ethical is actually you're gonna do better.

我的意思是，如果你觉得我试图在某些方面占你便宜，你对我的好感就会减少，合作关系也会因此变差。

I mean, I think if you felt that I tried to take advantage of you in some way, you would have less warm feelings towards me and it would be less through a good partnership.

反过来也是一样。

Likewise, the other way around.

所以，我认为就像我和尼克、扎克的关系一样，我们的合作建立在善意和希望对方成功的愿望之上。

And so I think as with Nick and Zach, our partnership is built on kindness, wanting the other one to do well.

正如尼克所说，良好的行为具有更长的保质期。

As Nick said, good behaviour has a longer shelf life.

这确实非常深刻，但需要一点信念的飞跃。

So it's really profound, but it takes a leap of faith.

而且这可能还需要良好的判断力。

And it also probably takes good judgment.

因此，汤姆·盖纳在这方面说过一句非常有帮助的话：你先给予信任，先付出爱，然后观察对方如何回应，是否 reciprocate。

So Tom Gayner said something very helpful on this front where Tom said, You extend trust first, you extend love first, and then you see how the other person behaves and whether they reciprocate.

所以他有一种筛选机制，如果有人表现出不配得到这种信任，你就会想，好吧，很好，去找别人做生意吧。

And so he has a kind of sorting mechanism where if people show that they're unworthy of that trust, then you're just like, okay, great, go do business with someone else.

所以我认为这并不是关于天真、轻信或容易上当。

So I don't think this is about being naive and credulous and gullible.

我认为这是关于以一种让你自己感到尊重的方式行事。

I think this is about behaving in a decent way that you can respect yourself.

你希望拥有自尊。

You want to have self respect.

你希望觉得自己正在努力以体面的方式行事。

You want to feel like you're trying to behave in a decent way yourself.

然后相信宇宙中存在一种机制，你会在实际层面得到某种回报，因为人们喜欢合作，喜欢与他们信任的人共事。

And then trusting that there is a system at work in the universe where you're going to be somehow rewarded in practical terms because people like to cooperate, they like to work with people they trust.

这种方式运作起来有种奇妙之处。

There is something kind of magical about how this works.

但要从弱肉强食的零和博弈跃迁到这种新模式——即‘我要努力做个正直的人，看看结果会怎样’——这需要一种信念。

But it's an act of faith to leap from the dog eat dog zero sum game to this other model of saying, no, I'm going to try to be decent and we'll see how it works.

你可能会说，这只不过是一种奢侈，只有在你富裕成功时才负担得起。

And you could say that is just a luxury, that it's a luxury that you can only afford when you're rich and successful.

但我认为，这触及了宇宙深处的一个强大原则。

But I think it taps into a deep power principle of the universe.

我可能在这方面有些天真和过于神秘化，但我相信，这其实可以用科学来解释。

There's something I may be naive and overly mystical about this, but I and you could explain it scientifically.

我的意思是，你可以从进化、合作的欲望等方面来解释它。

I mean, you can explain it in terms of the, you know, evolution and the desire to cooperate and the like.

但当你观察到这一切，看到了了不起的人们彼此合作、互相帮助时，你会发现这是一件非常美好的事。

But it's a very beautiful thing when you observe it and you start to see incredible people working together, collaborating together, helping each other.

你会看到人们之间这种默契的协同。

You see this sort of alignment of people.

你会看到巴菲特投资于汤姆·盖纳管理的马克尔公司。

You see Buffett investing in Markel that Tom Gayner runs.

你会看到汤姆·盖纳与克里斯·戴维斯成为密友，并担任戴维斯公司的董事长，而莫尼什也与查理·芒格关系密切。

You see Tom Gayner working, being close friends with Chris Davis and being chairman of the board of Davis' firm and Monish becoming close to Charlie Munger.