比特币正在失败吗？| 亚历克斯·格拉德斯坦与保罗·斯佐克

这个虚假的托管闪电网络让所有人都变得不诚实。如果它只是停留在多重签名交易中，那些人随时可能卷款跑路。而且L1上的字节空间根本不足以让所有人上链。这是网络效应与群体思维和邪教式狂热的对决。为什么非得对所有人都表现得特别特别友善呢？

The fake custodial lightning that has tricked everyone into being dishonest. If it's just sitting in a multisig transaction, then those people can rug you. And there's not enough bytes on L1 to onboard everyone. It's network effects versus groupthink and being in a cult. Why is it the case that you have to be really, really nice to everyone?

难道你的想法就不能单纯靠谱点吗？

Can't your idea just be good?

我们为什么不能折中一下，就说它还在发展呢？它远非完美，存在各种问题和漏洞，但一直在改进。你今天就可以试试看。

Well, why can't we take the middle ground and just say it's emerging? It's not perfect by any stretch. It has issues. It has bugs, but it's getting better all the time. You could try it today.

比如你真的能用它。比特币目前真正的扩展瓶颈其实是用户和人群。关键是要思考一百年后什么才是核心——当比特币停止增发后，如何真正实现全球货币自由？这是我经常思考的问题。还是说最终只会成为极少数富豪的免费提款机？

Like, you can actually use it. The real scaling issue with Bitcoin right now is is users and people. It's very important to be thinking a hundred years from now about what what's gonna be key. How can Bitcoin actually be free to money for everybody in the world when Bitcoin's issuance ends is something I think about a lot, or will it only be money for free to money for very, very wealthy individuals?

保罗、亚历克斯，非常感谢二位参加节目。保罗，你最近在推特上又引发了不少争议——说实话这很常态。你和亚历克斯之前有过辩论，我们会详细探讨。但为了让听众全面理解你们的观点背景，保罗，我们或许该从你的个人介绍开始，说说你现在从事的工作。

Paul, Alex, thank you both so much for coming on the show. Paul, you've been being very controversial on Twitter recently, as normal, actually. And you and Alex got into a bit of a debate. So we're gonna get get into that in detail. But I think probably the best place to start, so the listeners have full context of maybe why you're saying the things you're saying, Paul, we should start with a bit of an introduction about you and what you are working on.

好的，我很乐意。2014年我创建了博客truthcoininfo.info，那本质上是个比特币极端主义博客——虽然当时这个说法还不存在。

Yes. I would be happy to do. Okay. So back in 2014, I started a blog, truthcoininfo.info. That was basically a Bitcoin maximalist blog, although that term did not even exist back then.

特别写了篇《没有什么比工作量证明更廉价》的文章。2015年我提出驱动链概念，在前三届比特币扩容会议上发表演讲，还是BIP300和301的作者。2022年底我创立了Layer Two Labs这家比特币开发公司。我从未参与过比特币以外的任何代币项目，自认是纯粹比特币极端主义者——不过现在大家都接受了这个观点，我觉得是时候跳船了，比特币极端主义的黄昏已至。

And in particular, wrote this essay, Nothing is cheaper than proof of work. So that was back in 2014. Then in 2015, I created this drive chain idea, and I presented the first three scaling Bitcoin conferences, and I'm the author of Bips 303 hundred and one. And then now as of late twenty twenty two, I am the CEO and founder of Layer two Labs, which is like a Bitcoin development company. And so, also, I have never really worked on or owned any coin other than Bitcoin, so I consider myself to be like a total Bitcoin maximalist usually, although now I think that that is now that everyone has come around to that point of view, the time has come to jump ship, and actually, the sun is setting on the Bitcoin maxim.

所以这可能会很奇怪，但我现在要采取与我过去十二年左右持有的基本相反的观点。

So, this will be very weird, but I'll be now taking basically the opposite point of view that I've had for twelve or so years.

你只是在唱反调。好吧。Alex，大家都认识你。你以为这是你第三次上节目了，但请简单介绍一下自己。

You're just being a contrarian. Okay. Alex, everyone knows you. You just think this is the third time you've been on the show, but just quickly give a bit of an intro to yourself.

当然。我是从人权领域接触比特币的。我们看到很多活动人士和异见者，特别是在政治环境恶劣的地区使用它。大约十年前开始，过去五六年使用量大幅增长。我们从支持角度参与其中，帮助资助工具开发，让活动人士更容易获取、更安全、更私密。

Sure. I came into Bitcoin from the human rights world. We saw a lot of activists and dissidents, especially in difficult political climates using it. You know, starting ten years ago, it got a lot more voluminous in the last five to six years. We started getting involved from a support perspective in terms of helping fund tools to become more accessible for activists, become safer, more private.

我们资助了大量教育工作，也资助了许多让人群聚集的项目——让开发者与活动人士对接。在人权基金会，我们还做了大量关于比特币及其对全球自由意义的科普工作，这已成为基金会的重要项目。另外，我从历史角度写过很多比特币文章：它在货币体系中的地位、与其他系统的差异，以及全球采用原因。我走访过许多国家，接触过许多金融条件远不如我的人们，了解到他们为何转向这种‘神奇互联网货币’。

We do a lot of funding of education, and we do a lot of funding of people bring people together, bringing the builders together with the activists. And we also do a lot of education about Bitcoin and why it matters for freedom around the world at the Human Rights Foundation, and it's become a pretty big program there. Separately, I I've written a lot about Bitcoin both from a historical perspective where where is it stand versus other currency systems, how is it different, as well as why are people around the world adopting it. And I've traveled a lot, met a lot of people, talked to a lot of you know, in countries with a lot less financial privilege than me and have learned, you know, why they are turning to this, you know, magical Internet money. Why are they doing it?

是的，我们非常看好比特币用户增长的世界。我们认为这对全球个人自由将是巨大进步。当然，最重要的是这是独裁者无法阻止的货币，这正是我们青睐它的主要原因。

And, yeah, we we're we're very bullish on a world with a lot more Bitcoin users. We think that'll be a very large gain for individual freedom globally. So super super interesting for us, and, of course, it's money that dictators can't stop, and that's kind of the most important reason why we we like it.

完全同意。好了，铺垫完毕，进入正题。Paul，我想最好从你和Alex争论的那条原始推文开始，请阐述你的立场和推文本意。

Absolutely. Okay. So table set. Let's get into the fun stuff. So, Paul, I think the best place to start would be if you kind of take it from your original tweet that you and Alex kind of got into the debate about, explain your stance and what you meant in that tweet.

嗯，首先是Lynn的推文——当然没问题，不过Lynn本人不在场。她有个老观点说‘比特币是正品，其他都是山寨货’。我认为这个观点很有道理，但比特币技术发展已经滞后于前沿，处于停滞状态。所以我批评了Lynn这条推文，然后她回复了很奇怪的话，说这是老观点但她仍然坚持，这不知怎么就算作回应了。

Well, yeah, first was Lynn's tweet, which is fine. Of course, Lynn's not here, so it's on support. But she's basically she there's an older quote from hers about, you know, Bitcoin is the real deal and everything else is a knockoff. And I think that this idea has a lot of merit, but we have been Bitcoin has kind of been falling behind the tech cutting edge, and it's been stagnant. And so I criticized this tweet of Linz, and then she said something really strange, like she said that that's an old quote, but that she still stands behind it, and that counted as a reply for some reason.

但无论如何，关键在于亚历克斯突然插话，提到我认为某种垃圾币会被80亿人采用。我真正想表达的是，我们不能想当然地认为比特币就是最终赢家，除非我们真的看到41亿人采用它，或者真正跨越这个临界点——即便如此，我们也未必希望如此，因为我们渴望生活在一个万物高速进步的世界。如果比特币被网络效应所禁锢，它的进步速度就会受限。作为比特币投资者，我们或许乐见其成，但我们更应思考为何当今世界如此令人不满。

But, anyways, the point is then Alex jumped in and said something about how I think that people will that, like, a shitcoin will be adopted by 8,000,000,000 people. What what I really mean is that it's not we can't take it for granted that Bitcoin will be the winning coin until we really have that. So, we really see like 4,100,000,000 people adopt or until we really actually cross this threshold of and even then, we wouldn't necessarily want that because we want to live in a world where everything improves a lot, and so if we have this network effect cage around Bitcoin, then it will not improve as much as it otherwise would be. So maybe as Bitcoin investors, we would like that. But we want to live in a world mean, just look at why things are so unsatisfying today.

现实中存在政府暴政或垄断保护的情况，网络效应不过是这种模式的另一种表现形式。我的核心理念是存在两股力量：一方面是网络效应让强者愈强——比特币确实因此日益壮大，这点我完全认同，我也是网络效应的忠实信徒；但另一方面则是群体思维、邪教式盲从、对问题视而不见、甚至自欺欺人地掩盖比特币缺陷，直到这些缺陷系统性摧毁整个项目。

You have cases of where the government is tyrannical or when you have some kind of monopoly where there's protection from competition. The network effects would just be a different instantiation of that. So, the core of my idea is that there's these two forces, is that there's network effects on one hand where the big get bigger, and so Bitcoin has been doing better and better and better and better, and all that's perfectly true, and I 100% acknowledge that. That's absolutely the case, and I'm a huge believer in network effects. But it's network effects versus groupthink and being in a cult and being in denial about your own problems and lying to yourself and others about imperfections in Bitcoin to the point where they become systemic and destroy the project.

这就像不可阻挡之力遭遇不可撼动之物的对决。我的分析框架即是如此：网络效应固然强大，但自满与过度自信同样威力惊人。纵观历史——无论是罗马帝国衰亡，还是《创新者的窘境》所揭示的企业破产规律——都能印证这点。

So these are like an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. So that's my that's like my frame of the situation. And so network effects are very, very strong, but complacency and overconfidence are also very, very strong. And you can look at all kinds of, you know, the fall of Rome or whatever. You know, there's this famous book, The Innovator's Dilemma, about why is it that companies constantly go bankrupt.

为什么它们不及时应对？很多时候企业明明清楚危机所在，却因体量庞大、机构臃肿而无法及时反应。

Why don't they just react? Many times, the company knows exactly what's happening, and they cannot react in time. And it's just because company's too big and has too many moving pieces.

在亚历克斯回应前，请允许我替不在场的林恩辩护几句。这原本是条关于比特币与加密货币差异的推文。林恩在回应中指出你引用的是断章取义的旧观点，随后她基于事实指出：这些年比特币与加密货币的差距确实越拉越大。这点你不同意吗？毕竟市场走势正是如此。

Just quickly before Alex responds to this, I just wanna jump in and defend Lynn because she's not here because this was basically a tweet about the difference between Bitcoin and crypto. And in Lynn's response to you, after she points out that was, like, an old quote that was taken out of context, she said that sort of empirically, that gap has become bigger. Like, Bitcoin has separated itself more and more from crypto over the years. So is that something that you disagree with? Because, like, that is what the market is saying.

我承认表面看来——尤其是2019年以来——比特币似乎形势大好。但我的观点是：暗流之下比特币的状况正在持续恶化，只是我直到最近才发声。这种表象恰恰证明了我的洞察力（笑）。就像甘道夫现身预警时，人们总说'这家伙在惹麻烦'，实则他带来的是及时警报——防患于未然总比紧急应对容易得多。

I accept that it looks very much over the last especially over the last so, like, my view is that things have gotten since around 2019, things have gotten under the surface worse, steadily worse for Bitcoin, and I kinda didn't really complain about it until now, until recently. But I admit that on the surface, it appears as though everything is going great. But I see this as just more evidence of how perceptive I am or whatever. You know, I'm kind of smiling and blinking, you know, at the audience here with this. But it's kind of like, you know, Gandalf shows up and he's trying to warn everyone, you know, there's this huge problem here.

我完全认同目前网络效应占据主导的表象。但我认为这源于人们难以察觉比特币积累的所有'疤痕组织'。

And they're always saying like, you know, this guy is bringing trouble. But actually, he's bringing the warning. He's bringing the warning in time because it's much easier, of course, to prepare for a problem and then preemptively address it versus kind of reply to it in some kind of emergency. So I admit completely that mostly things have looked as though the network effect part is just dominating. I attribute this to the fact that it's very difficult to see all the scar tissue that has accumulated in Bitcoin.

我认为你必须参与这些技术辩论和许多人所忽视的细节。而且，比特币发展如此迅速，社区中任何时候都有很高比例的人是新手，这对大众教育并不利，因为这些人完全是新手，但深入探究这类细微之处也不符合人的天性。所以，这算是个冗长的回答，但我觉得这很重要，能真正表达我的意思。我希望情况如此。我认为如果比特币就像一列失控的火车，注定无论如何都会成功，那将非常棒。

You have to, I think, be involved in these technical debates and these details that a lot of people miss. And also, Bitcoin has grown so much that a very high percentage of the people in the community at any given time are now very new, and that is not great for, you know, mass education because these people are brand new and they don't but it's also not in a people's nature to, like, really deeply look into this kind of minutiae. So, again, that's kind of a long answer, but that's I think it's important to get at what I'm really trying to say. And I I would like it to be the case. I I think it would be great if Bitcoin is just this runaway train, and it's gonna it's guaranteed it's destined for success no matter what.

我觉得那样会很棒。显然那将非常美妙。但我们必须确保不要陷入一厢情愿的陷阱。如果我们真的想成功，如果我们希望比特币对人权有用，那么我们必须确保我们以清醒的眼光看待它。

I think that would be great. You know? That would obviously be fantastic. But I think that we have to have to make sure that we aren't falling into the trap of wishful thinking. If we really want to succeed, if we want Bitcoin to be useful for human rights, then we have to we have to make sure that we are looking at it with good eyesight.

亚历克斯，对此你有什么想回应的吗？

Alex, do you have anything to say there in response to that?

是的。我想说，我们是从不同角度看待这个问题的。我们并没有深入思考从根本上改变比特币的替代方式，然后设想世界会变成什么样。我们只是在使用它，观察人们如何使用和学习它。从我们的角度看，你说的与我们的体验相去甚远，因为它比2019年时更容易使用、更成功、更广泛普及、更具流动性、更被接受和理解。

Yeah. I mean, look, I guess we're coming at it from a different point of view. We're not necessarily thinking deeply about, you know, alternative ways of of doing Bitcoin at a at a you know, changing it so fundamentally and then thinking about what the world like be in that case. We're just using it, we're watching people use it, learn about it. And, you know, from our perspective, what you say couldn't be further from our experience because it's so much easier to use and so much more successful and so much more widely proliferated and so much more liquid and so much more accepted and so much more understood than it was in 2019.

比如，2019年我们开始进行活动家教育时，钱包非常难用。设计钱包的人并没有将新手作为目标用户。你下载钱包后要做的第一件事就是立即记下助记词。而现在，天哪，情况完全不同了。

Like, you know, when we started doing activist education in 2019, wallets were very hard to use. The the people who designed the wallets did not design them for people who were newbies, you know, essentially as their as their in mind audience. You had to immediately write down the seed phrase. It's like the first thing you did when you downloaded the wallet. Now today, it's like, oh my god.

我们现在有这么多优秀的钱包，许多都支持闪电网络、电子现金等强大功能。显然还有网络效应，比特币被全球数百万人使用，在许多地方都被接受。

We have so many awesome wallets. We have so many great wallets that have Lightning, that have eCash, that have so many great additions to them. And then, obviously, just network effect. Bitcoin is used by so many millions of people around the world. It's accepted so many places.

它正被众多实体采用。所以从我们的角度看，事情已经变得容易多了。所以保罗，我想问你的问题是，回到主题，你说比特币一直在落后。首先，你能具体说明吗？

It's being adopted by so many entities. So from our perspective, things have become much, much easier. So my question to you, Paul, would be, you know, going back to the thread. So you said that Bitcoin's been falling behind. Well, first, I would say, number one, what can you be specific?

它在哪些协议、货币、代币或山寨币方面落后了？这是第一点。第二点是，当我提到那些浮夸的代币或垃圾币时，我指的是像Solana、Dogecoin、Shiba之类的，随便举一个例子。哪个能超越比特币？具体说说看，让我们听听你的观点。

Which protocols or monies or tokens or altcoins is it falling behind? And b, so that's one thing. And then the second thing is, you know, what you know, what which which floating when I say floating token shitcoin, what I meant is, like, I don't know, Solana, Dogecoin, Shiba, you know, like, name one. Which one is gonna beat out Bitcoin? Be be specific about it because, you know, let let let let's hear it.

我对这个很感兴趣，真的非常好奇。

I mean, that's what I'm interested in. I'm I'm very curious.

事实上，我认为很可能再次出现一个与比特币极为相似的新硬分叉，它会在某些方面——比如是安于现状还是积极进取——分裂社区。

In fact, I think that it's quite likely that what will happen again is a new hard fork that is very, very similar to Bitcoin and simply just splits the community on some of these dimensions of complacency versus, let's call it, assertiveness or

就像比特币现金那次分叉一样。

Like the Bitcoin Cash fork.

是的。我认为会是一次类似的硬分叉。实际上，我认为它会成功的原因之一，正是因为比特币现金硬分叉执行得太糟糕了，这个馊主意永久性地败坏了硬分叉的声誉。这又是一个用假象掩盖本质的例子——硬分叉其实是种很好的机制，每个比特币持有者都能免费获得新币，你可以完全无视它，让它归零，对你生活毫无影响。我们真应该鼓励更多...虽然它确实会损害网络效应，稀释品牌价值。

Yeah. I think it would be a hard fork similar in that way. And in fact, one of the reasons why I think that it will succeed is because the Bitcoin Cash hard fork was so poorly done, it was so poorly executed, and it was such a bad idea that it has permanently discredited the hard fork. So, is another example of having cast an illusion over the fundamental reality that the hard fork is actually a pretty good institution where every Bitcoiner just gets free money, and if you can just ignore it and it, you know, it goes to zero and it doesn't affect your life at all. So we really should be encouraging more it does does damage the network effect, and it does dilute the brand.

但像Amari和Roger做的那些事——比如命名为比特币现金、Roger使用bitcoin.com域名来宣称正统——我认为这些不会被重蹈覆辙。硬分叉机制应该因其重新引入竞争而受到赞扬。竞争能解决我提到的所有潜在问题。我对网络效应概念有所怀疑的一个原因是：虽然我们确实发展了很多，但当我与普通人交谈时，包括许多聪明的普通人，他们仍从未真正了解比特币，或认为比特币与其他加密货币没区别，从未使用过这些，觉得我们整个行业都是骗局——这当然很遗憾。

But, of course, a lot of the things that, for example, Amari and Roger did, like naming it Bitcoin Cash and Roger using bitcoin.com, the domain, assert. I don't think that those things will be repeated. And I think that the institution of the hard fork needs to be celebrated for how it reintroduces competition. Competition would cure all these hidden issues that I'm talking about. And one reason why I doubt the network effect concept a little bit is that while it's true that we have grown a lot, it is also true that when I talk to just normal people, lots and lots of normal people who are very smart, you know, they still have never really heard of Bitcoin or they think there's no difference between Bitcoin and crypto, and they've never used any of this, and they just kind of think that our whole industry is a huge scam, which is unfortunate, of course.

但我认为网络效应真正强大的时候，是当大量人群真正在使用它时。而现实是，即便在发达国家如美国，在受过教育的群体中，那些懂技术的年轻人仍有很大比例认为这整个领域是他们从未使用、也不理解的东西。这也是让人质疑网络效应的一个理由。

But I think it is the case that the network effect, you know, that hits really strong when when you have, like, lots and lots of people really using it. But when you live in a world where even in the first world, like, in America, in educated America, you have tech savvy young adults, and they still a huge percentage of them just think the whole thing is that that that's something that they've never used and they don't understand. That is one reason to doubt and say it's also a little bit

那么明确地说，我的意思是，因为你在帖子中提到，可能在未来两到五年内，任何人用一台笔记本电脑就能发行一种具有强大隐私性、可扩展性支持80亿用户、且全节点成本比比特币更低的新代币。所以你基本上是在谈论一种新的第一层区块链，还是说有人会提出一种完全不同的方式来构想比特币，比如无限增加区块大小限制，就像比特币现金那样，然后我们会朝那个方向发展。你能明确说明是哪种情况，或者你认为哪种更有可能发生吗？

So to be to be clear, I mean, because you wrote in your thread that soon in maybe two to five years, it will be possible for anyone with a laptop to launch a new coin that has strong privacy, scalability to 8,000,000,000 people, and cheaper l one full node cost than Bitcoin. So are you basically talking about a new l one blockchain, or are you saying that basically someone's gonna come up with a completely different way to envision Bitcoin, like increasing the block size limit, you know, ad infinitum like Bitcoin Cash, and then and and we're gonna go in that direction. Can you just be clear which one or which one do you think is more likely to happen?

是的。我很高兴你提到这一点，因为与其说我认为现有的山寨币...实际上，我认为在很多方面，现有的山寨币已经是劣中之选，而且仅仅因为它们存在了这么久，某种程度上它们已经尝试过自己的机会了。就像比特币现金那样，那艘船已经启航了，现在回头去救那些人已经不值得了。相反，我们需要...但当我提到比特币落后时，你提醒了我推文中写的内容。是的。

Yeah. I'm glad that you brought that up because it's not so much that I think any existing altcoin I I think, actually, in many ways, the existing altcoins are some of the bottom of the barrel, and also they have by just by virtue of existing for so long, they kind of, like, they shot their shot or whatever. And so now, similarly with Bitcoin Cash, like, it's kinda like that ship has sort of sailed, and it's not worth it to go back and rescue those people. Instead, we will need to but when I say because you I wrote down this bullet point about Bitcoin falling behind, and you remind me what I wrote in the tweet. Yeah.

将会有一个开源技术栈。在我看来它已经初具雏形，比特币在某些方面确实落后了。比如在隐私性这个维度上，你不会说比特币现有的任何东西能与Zcash、门罗币这些山寨币相提并论...但eCash是...eCash是那种...你这么说是什么意思？但eCash是联邦模型，这就是妥协方案。那是妥协的部分。

There is a there will be an open source tech stack. I mean, it's already taking shape in my view where, like, there are things where Bitcoin has fallen behind. So you wouldn't say, for example, on the dimension of privacy, you wouldn't say that anything we have in Bitcoin is comparable to what exists in the Zcash Altcoin or Monero or or But eCash is like a kind of a eCash is a what would you mean by that? But eCache is the but eCache is the federated model, which is the cop out. That's the cop out part.

不。我...你是什么意思？

No. That I I what do you mean?

嗯，我认为亚历克斯的意思是，如果这最终发生在某个侧链或第二层上，那也会是联邦模型。

Well, I think what Alex means there is that if this ends up happening on some, like, side chain l two, then that's also gonna be in a federated model.

所以我想说的是，

So I guess my point is that like,

如果你真的

if you're really

理想情况下，人们可以自我保管比特币。而在理想世界中，你也希望人们能做出权衡，牺牲部分自主权以换取其他好处。你心中对此有特定的实现方式，我认为这没问题，我并非来争论这个。

one is a well, that's what you say. I mean, so so in, in the ideal world, you have people who can self custody Bitcoin. And, and then in the ideal world, you also want people to make trade offs to be able to sacrifice some of that, people to get other things. Now in your mind, you have a particular way of doing that, which I I think is fine. I'm not here to debate that.

但如今，比特币用户还有其他途径获得这种灵活性。其中之一就是通过神奇的闪电网络接入各类支付池（如铸币池），在不借助那些浮动代币垃圾币的情况下实现真正的隐私保护。我觉得你严重低估了现有的强大选项——这些本就能推进你的目标，这点显而易见。总不能说2025年还在推广闪电网络的人是傻子吧？

But today, there exists other ways for Bitcoin users to get that flexibility. And one of them is through the the wonderful Lightning Network to be able to tap into other kinds of payment pools like mints to achieve really good privacy without having to go to some floating token shit coin to do it. So, you know, I think what what a lot of what you do is you underrate and underestimate the current options that are out there, which are extremely strong to promote your own agenda. I mean, there's there's this is very clear. I mean, there's no way that you could say seriously that anyone who still shills Lightning Network in 2025 is is kind of an idiot.

这根本站不住脚。我从你推文里读到的就是这个意思：'2025年还吹捧闪电网络的人多少有点蠢'。

That's That is not a credible argument. That's what I'm reading it off your that I'm re I'm reading it off your tweet. It says, anyone who still shills LN in 2025 is kind of an idiot.

我同意，确实如此。

I agree. That is yes.

这没关系。

That is okay.

好吧，我们现在已经涉及了大概500个不同话题。首先，辩护...

So Well, I mean, now we've touched on, like, 500 different things. I mean, first of all, defending

总结这个模型...但不是为了逃避。我们可以马上讨论闪电网络，但现在我们讨论到哪了？你是想...

the model wrap it up. But but but not to escape. So we could go to lightning in a second. But but so where are we going here? So you wanna

先做联邦模型。因为你整个论点

do the federated model first. Because your whole argument

你基本上...等等，等一下。但但但回到刚才。所以你基本上是说不会有L1区块链能超越比特币。比特币。

You're basically but hold on. Hold on. But but but just to go back. So you're basically saying it's not gonna be an l one blockchain that outcompetes Bitcoin. Bitcoin.

实际上会是一个硬分叉，就像A

It's actually gonna be a hard fork and, like A

硬分叉会是一个新的L

hard fork would be a new l

1区块链。对。我是说，但这和卡尔达诺不同。你基本上认为不会是现有的山寨币之一。

one blockchain. Yeah. I mean, but it's different than, like, Cardano. You're basically saying it's not gonna be one of the the existing altcoins.

我目前不认为会是卡尔达诺。是的。没错。就是

I currently don't think it'll be Cardano. Yes. Right. That's

确实。好的。这点我们可以达成共识。所以会是有人对比特币项目引入重大规则变更，然后导致分裂。

true. Yeah. Okay. We can agree on that one. So that it's gonna be someone who introduces a big rule change to the to the Bitcoin project and that there's a split.

那个，就像，

And that Well Like,

我想从它带来的益处来看，可以说是重大的。

I guess big in terms of how beneficial it would be, I suppose.

但重点是，既然这是个硬分叉，那规模就很重要。

But big and being that it's a hard fork, like, is my point.

我认为硬分叉的关键在于它会分裂社区。技术升级并不需要硬分叉。所有硬分叉能实现的功能，软分叉都能做到；而所有软分叉能实现的功能，实际上不修改比特币代码也能完成。所以，这种硬分叉与软分叉的区分已经没有任何实际意义了。硬分叉只在你蓄意分裂社区时才有用。

I think the hard fork part it's the hard fork will be to split the community. There won't be the hard fork that does the the tech enabling. Everything that can be done with a hard fork can be done with a soft fork, and everything can that could be done with a soft fork can actually be done without changing Bitcoin's code. So, actually, this whole hard versus soft distinction no longer has any bearing on anything, I think. The hard fork is when you want if you want to split the community intentionally, you can do it with the hard fork.

关键在于社区成员。如果你在发展过程中接纳了反对发展的人进入社区，那么最终结果就会...

That is the key, is the members of the community. Because I think you if you grow and you you accept people into your community who are anti growth, then, actually, then this is will end up

在讨论闪电网络之前，能不能先请你带我们梳理一下——用五分钟时间快速描述一个场景：未来五年内，我们所知的比特币项目如何可能被其他事物取代而消亡？

Just saying before we move forward to the lightning stuff, can you just can you can you do recovery. I just should walk. Well, just just walk walk walk me through and walk us through potential scenario in the next five years where the Bitcoin project as we know it ends and gets obsoleted by something else. Can you just walk us through quickly

我觉得

I think

你能想象这种情况发生吗？

you envision that happening, please?

好的。在我看来，所有加密货币都面临这样的风险：如果某一种币真正实现了大规模用户采用，这就是最好的营销，也是对这种币最好的认可。一旦某种币真正获得实际用户，其他币就会被取代，基本上会归零。这就是我的观点。

Okay. I my view is that all the coins are vulnerable to like, if one coin actually makes it into something where it has lots of actual users, this is the best marketing, you know, for the coin. This is the best kind of adoption there is. And so if a coin actually reaches real users, the other coins will be displaced, they will, you know, go to zero, basically. That's my point.

本质上是因为网络效应的论点。如果某一种币变得非常庞大，它就会...好的...挤掉其他币。所以我推文想表达的是，这种情况会随着时间的推移越来越容易发生，最终会容易到我们不得不面对比特币遗留的技术问题。到那时，可能就变成紧急状况了。

Because because of the network effect argument, basically. So if one coin gets really big, it will Okay. Muscle out the others. So that's what I I think what I was getting at with my tweet is that this will become easier and easier over time, and eventually, it will become so easy that we'll be forced to reckon with the the the technical scar tissue of Bitcoin. And then it may be at that point, it may be, like, an emergency situation.

但我仍然认为我们会通过硬分叉来保护UTXO资产。所有人的投资都会安全，但这并不是我真正关心的问题。我感兴趣的是：最终胜出的币种会采用什么样的技术架构？这才是我关注的重点。

But I still think it'll be the hard fork we'll win to preserve the UTXO assets. Everyone's investment will be will be safe, but it that's not really the question that interests me. The question is, like, what is the end the final technical configuration of of the winning coin? That's kind of, like, the thing that I'm interested in.

本节目由Blockware赞助。你是想要现在拥有1个比特币，还是几年后拥有2个？这问题太简单了。比特币挖矿是积累更多比特币的可靠方法，几年后收益甚至可能超过定期定额投资。Blockware的挖矿托管服务让你无需动手就能开始挖矿。

This episode is brought to you by Blockware. Would you rather have one Bitcoin today or two in a few years from now? Silly question. Well, Bitcoin mining is a tried and true method to accumulate more Bitcoin, and over a few years, it can even outperform a normal DCA. Blockware's mining as a service enables you to start mining Bitcoin without lifting a finger.

Blockware包办一切：从矿机安保、低价电力采购到矿池配置。他们在美国拥有多个数据中心，是业内最可靠的挖矿合作伙伴。挖矿是获取比特币最高效的方式之一。点击描述区链接立即开始，若告知是Bitcoin Did推荐，每台托管矿机可获一周免费托管和电力。

Blockware handles everything from securing the miners to sourcing low cost power and configuring the pool. They do it all. With multiple data centers across The US, Blockware is the most reliable mining partner in the industry, and mining is one of the most efficient ways to acquire Bitcoin. So click the link in the description to get started today. And if you tell them what Bitcoin did send you, you'll get one week of free hosting and free electricity for every hosted miner purchased.

点击描述区链接或访问blockwaresolutions.com。本节目由River赞助——比特币玩家和企业购买比特币的最佳平台。通过River可设置零手续费定期购买，轻松囤币。在等待最佳买入时机时，还能用现金余额赚取以比特币支付的日息，收益超过多数高息储蓄账户。但River真正的优势在于其安全承诺。

So click the link in the description or head over to blockwaresolutions.com. This episode is brought to you by River, the best place for Bitcoiners and businesses to buy Bitcoin. With River, can set up zero fee recurring buys, making stacking stats effortless. And while you're waiting for the perfect buying opportunity, River lets you earn daily interest on your cash balance paid in Bitcoin, which outperforms most high yield savings accounts. But what really sets River apart is their dedication to security.

River每月都会进行储备金证明，并将所有比特币存放在多重签名的冷存储中，这让您高枕无忧。而且我们提供美国本土的电话支持，随时有人为您提供帮助。想了解更多关于River的信息并开设账户，请访问river.com/wbd，购买时最高可获得100美元的比特币奖励。网址是river.com/wbd。保罗，就简单说这些。

You have peace of mind knowing that River has monthly proof of reserves and holds all Bitcoin in multisig cold storage. And with US based phone support, you'll always have someone on hand ready to help. To find out more about River and to open an account, head over to river.com/wbd and earn up to $100 in Bitcoin when you buy. That's river.com/wbd. Just quickly on that, Paul.

我不明白的是，你说过几年后任何人都能发行具有更好隐私性、扩展性等等的币。但人们已经尝试了十年，现在市面上有成千上万种垃圾币。你觉得会有什么变化能让其中一种胜出？

Like, what what I don't understand is you you said, like, in a couple years, anyone can launch a coin with better privacy, better scalability, whatever. Like, people have been trying this for a decade at this point. There's tens of thousands of other shitcoins. Like, what what is what do you see changing that means one of those will win?

发行代币，我认为很多都是负面创新。这些代币只是干扰因素，发行者大多只图钱财。实际上这反而会赶走真正有技术探索精神的人。所以我对人们发行代币这件事本身并不感兴趣。

Launching a coin, I think a lot of this has been negative innovation. So the coins have been distractions. So these are people who just want money, interested. And in fact, this repels the people who have genuine technical curiosity. So the fact that people are launching coins is not necessarily what I'm interested in.

但比如曾经有个Zerocoin项目，后来发展成了Zcash这个山寨币，他们做了大量研发工作，现在甚至有了用Rust编写的隐私交易模块，可以生成隐藏发送方、接收方和金额的可复用隐私地址。这类开源技术的存在才是我所关注的。还有很多案例是学者或研究者发布了技术栈的新组件，背后根本没有任何代币——毕竟发行代币实在太掉价了。

But the existence of, for example, the fact that there used to be this Zerocoin project, and it made it into the Zcash Altcoin, and they did a bunch of R and D, and now there's like a Rust crate for doing private transactions and having a reusable private address that hides the sender, the receiver, and the amount. The fact that that open source technology now exists, that type of thing is more what I'm talking about. And there are many cases where an academic or someone will put out a new piece of the tech stack that has no coin behind it at all because, of course, launching the coin is so undignified.

能不能具体展开说说细节？比如创业者A做了X，然后发生这个，接着发生那个。你肯定思考过很多次这个场景吧？毕竟你对此很感兴趣。

Could you just try to be specific and detail a little more? Like, how would this how would this unfold? It's like entrepreneur a does x, then this happens, then this happens. Like, do you paint I I you must have thought about this a lot because Or that's interested in it. Right.

那么请详细说说这个过程会如何发生。比特币是怎么...归零的？

So walk us through how this would happen. How does Bitcoin, you know, go to zero?

由于比特币的隐私功能不必要地落后了。

With the gear, like, the privacy gear in Bitcoin having fallen behind unnecessarily.

所以你认为隐私币会取代比特币。

So you think that that's gonna like, a privacy coin is gonna take over Bitcoin.

不，不，不，不。只是多一个选择。

No. No. No. No. Just the option.

没错。你可以选择使用L2方案，或者选用这个能隐藏发送方、接收方及金额的Rust加密库。有些人会需要这种功能。

Yeah. You have the an option. You have the l two or you have the option to use this rust crate that has this hides the sender, the receiver, and the amount. And that some people will want that.

这比我们现在用的eCache好在哪？我不明白。

Why would that be any better than than what we have now with with with eCache? I don't understand.

我本来打算解释，但你接连岔开了五六个话题。Ecash采用联盟模式，这简直是比特币史上最糟糕的设计。我们曾有过糟糕的主意、 dishonest的提案，以及像瘟疫般传播欺诈的构想，但很少像联盟模式这样集所有弊端于一身——这绝对是比特币历史上最黑暗的一页。

Well, I thought I was going to explain that, but you moved on to, like, five or six different things. The Ecash model is federated, and the federated model is just about the worst thing to ever happen in in Bitcoin's history, I think. We've had we've had bad ideas before, and we've had dishonest ideas, And we've had ideas that spread dishonesty like the plague. And but rarely do we have them all at once. But the federated model is just about the worst thing to happen in Bitcoin's history,

我认为。

I think.

有意思的是你对这种模式的危害如此麻木。这种托管模式意味着：'我现在就把所有币交给你，且对赎回毫无保障，你明天就可以卷款跑路'。而闪电网络、驱动链等技术通过复杂的时间锁机制，确保即使匿名参与者也会因经济利益而遵守规则。但联盟模式呢？就是把你的密钥币交给别人，然后祈祷能拿回来。更讽刺的是，所谓'联盟'根本是场骗局——不过是把托管对象从单个实体换成群体罢了。

So it's interesting that you're so blase about what it means. It's a trade model based because it's I'll read you all of my coins immediately, and I have no recourse about you ever getting them back, and you could take them tomorrow. Whereas with Lightning and with DriveChain and with lots of other things, there's all these complicated time locks and ways of making it difficult to withdraw the coins in an improper way such that you have, like, an economic guarantee that it's in their financial best interest even for anonymous people to participate honestly in the scheme. Whereas the federated model is just give all your key key coins to someone and just hope that you get them back. And even the federated part is a huge lie because it says, well, instead of giving them to one person, we'll give them to a big group of people.

但普通人完全无法辨别你是否真的将密钥分发给15个人——比如15人中的9人或其他数量——而不是一个人生成所有密钥然后克隆14个自己。整件事从头到尾都充斥着彻头彻尾的欺骗，完全是浪费时间。这正是我之前提到的'伤疤组织'的完美例证：这类人绝不能留在社区，他们会毁掉所有人的社区体验。他们会转移人们解决实际问题的注意力，转而反复谎称问题已通过eCache或任何联邦化方案得到解决。

But there is absolutely no way for the layperson to tell that you really are giving it to 15 you know, nine of 15 or whatever people, and it's not just one person who generated all one key and then 14 clones of themselves. So the whole thing is just shot through with pure dishonesty, and this whole thing is a huge waste of time. And it's a perfect example of the scar tissue that I mentioned before about how this type of thing, this is not someone that you want in your community because they will ruin the community for everyone else. They will move people's attention away from solving the real problems and more towards repeating the lie that the problem has been solved with something like eCache or any federated idea.

我可以明确告诉你，你显然没有仔细研究eCache——如今使用联邦化eCache的人并不多。Cashew才是主流协议，而且人们已经找到多种方法规避你描述的问题。比如多重坚果支付机制，你应该去了解一下，这个能同时从不同铸币厂发起支付的概念非常有趣。

I I can tell you, obviously, aren't looking at eCache very carefully because there's not a lot of people using federated eCache these days. Cashew is the dominant protocol, and there's other ways that people have figured out how to avoid what you describe. One of them is like the multi nut payments, and you should look into that. It's really interesting. This idea that you can make payments from any different mints at once.

降低被卷款风险的方法有很多。但归根结底，根本没人像你说的那样操作。不存在什么欺骗行为——尤其是Fetamin和Cashew协议的创建者们，绝不会让任何人把所有代币甚至大量代币投入单个铸币厂。这是用于小额消费的技术。

There's all different ways to reduce exposure to rugging. But at the end of the day, no one's doing what you say. No talk about dishonesty. No one no no one, especially the creators of both Fetamin and and Cashew protocols, would tell anybody to put all of their coins or even even even a significant amount of coins into a mint. This is a technology for small spending.

你知道吗？不，我同意这点。但我觉得它们全都一个样。

You know? No. I agree with that. Yeah. But I think they're all like that.

即便按我预想的配置，我认为L2链上每条链的代币数量永远不会超过大概八千、九千、两万枚，可能总共就十条十五条链。你看...

Even for in my intended configuration, I think the the l two chains will will never have more than, like, maybe eight, nine, ten, twenty thousand coins each, and there maybe be ten, fifteen. So that's Look.

听着，我们可能有艺术品即将上线。我...是的...

It's look. We have art potentially coming online. I I Yeah.

好吧，我调查过的eCash方案评级是100%优秀的，虽然理论上人们可以卷款跑路。但在L1链上它从未发生过——那只是L1上的多重签名输出，这才是关键所在。

Okay. Well, the e cash that I that I looked into is 100% better rated and the people can rug. It didn't on l one, it's just a multisig output on l one. So that's the only thing that matters.

比如，Cashew就不同。Cashew是基于闪电网络的。

Like, Cashew is different. Cashew is based on Lightning.

不。但闪电网络在L1上也是多重签名的。它是202多重签名。闪电通道在L1上是202多重签名。所以关键要看L1层能做什么。

No. But Lightning is also multisig on l one. It's two zero two multisig. The Lightning channels are two zero two multisig on l one. So what what matters is what the l one stack can do.

L1层并没有实现这些花哨的功能。

The l one stack is not doing these these fancy things.

好吧。

Okay.

但确实如此。我认为另一个遗留问题是，那些非挖矿的L2链，它们不向L1矿工支付交易费，所以它们存在一个定时炸弹问题——如果它们成功了，矿工和L2之间就会产生冲突。矿工要么想垂直整合，就会开始搞类似Foundry LSP或Foundry ARC之类的项目。顺便说一句，ARC就像是压垮闪电网络的最后一根稻草，你能看到所有人都立刻跳槽到ARC，这证明闪电网络是个失败的想法。

But yeah. So I think all the what all one another issue of scar tissue is that the non mined l twos, they don't pay their transaction fees to the l one miners, so they will they have this ticking time bomb problem where if they become successful, there would be conflict between the miners and the l two. The miners will either wanna vertically integrate, and they'll start, like, Foundry LSP or Foundry ARC or whatever. Mhmm. ARC is one of the by the way, ARC is, like, the final nail in the coffin as to why Lightning Network isn't a failed idea that you could see all these people jump ship to ARC immediately.

所以

So

首先，ARC才刚刚诞生，我们还不能确定，但ARC显然会成功，因为它基于闪电网络。如果你看它的运作方式，就会发现它们是协同工作的。

Well, first of all, ARC is just being born, and we so we don't know, but ARC is clearly gonna work because of Lightning. They work together if you look at how it's going to function.

Arc 我是说，我完全不同意这种描述。Arc的创建者

Arc I mean, I certainly disagree with that characterization. The the creator of

Arc 这种描述。事情就是这样运作的。你什么意思？你以为你可以在链上只有Arc而没有闪电网络吗？

Arc the characterization. It's how it's gonna work. What do you mean? You think you're gonna just have on chain and Arc and no lightning?

我来读一下Arc创建者在他制作这个Arc白板视频时说的话。这基本上是对闪电网络的最后一击，当他试图解释时，他在Arc大师课视频开头就说：这位Barak是Arc的创建者，曾是Blockstream员工，他为了好玩两次搞垮了闪电网络。

I'll read from the creator of Arc when he he made this this Arc whiteboard video. And this is this is kinda like the final nail in the coffin for for Lightning is that when he's trying to explain coffin for he's he opens his his arc masterclass video. He opens it with this. He says, well, this is this guy Barak who who is the creator of arc, and he's a former Blockstream employee. He crashed the Lightning Network twice for fun.

是的，是的。我只是为观众们...哈尔。他说这是2023年6月。

Yep. Yep. He I'm just for the audiences. Hal. And he says, this is June 2023.

我一直是闪电网络的强烈批评者。我有严重的反对意见，对吧？从入站流动性到入站接收的交互性。我想用ARC解决入站流动性问题，但我真的找不到解决方案。

I've always been a big critic of Lightning. I had severe objections. Right? From in ground inbound liquidity to inbound receiving interactivity. I wanted with ARC to address the inbound liquidity problem, but I really couldn't find a cure for it.

我没能看出闪电网络的扩展性。所以他在描述Arc时表示已经放弃了，他想要某种替代方案...但是...然后...

I failed to see lightning scaling. So he's saying when when his description of Arc that he has given up on, he wants, like, something that replaces But and that is and then

这显然不属实，因为如果你今天和ARC团队交流，他们认为这些是兼容的。确实ARC能做到闪电网络做不到的事。绝对如此。但这些就是...

Well, that's obviously not that's that's not true because if you talk to the ARC people today, they view these things as compatible. It's true that ARC does things lightning can't do. Absolutely. But these are these are the way

那些ARC矿池

that ARC pools

我没有误解重点。我的观点是闪电网络是比特币生态系统的中枢神经系统。至于不同的矿池，你可以拥有任何你想要的矿池类型。你可以有侧链，可以有Liquid网络。

I'm not missing the point. The my point is that lightning is the central nervous system of the Bitcoin ecosystem. And different pools, you can have all kinds of pools you want. You can have side chains. You can have liquid.

你可以有电子现金铸币厂，可以有交易所。它们都通过闪电网络相互通信。这对我们来说非常明显，因为我们实际在使用比特币。这些都是什么？

You can have e cash mints. You can have exchanges. They all speak lightning to each other. And and this is really obvious to us because we actually use Bitcoin. This is all what?

我觉得这些都只是借口。他们会在其他地方实际应用它。

It's all just cope, I think. They they will use it where else you actually work.

老兄，你正在证明你其实并不使用这些东西。让我给你读一段尼日利亚用户的话。我问了几个认识的人：闪电网络如何改变了你的生活？明白吗？

Dude, you're demonstrating that you don't actually use these things. Like, let me read you something from somebody in Nigeria. I asked a couple people I knew. I'm like, what how has lightning changed your life? Okay?

我们正在讨论很多不同的观点。

We're going through a lot of different points.

我们能...我能...我能解释一下吗？不，不行。不行。你刚才把我说的称为借口，所以让我先驳斥这点。

Can we Can I can I just explain can no? No. No. No. You you just you just called what I said cope, so let me dismiss that.

好的。嗨，Alex，我首先想到的是，我最喜欢的闪电网络应用场景是突破金融限制，以及快速跨境汇款解决紧急情况。举个例子，我在菲律宾的阿姨曾遇到医疗紧急情况，我的家人通过闪电网络迅速汇款提供了帮助。

Sure. Hi, Alex. Off the top of my head, I'd say my favorite lightning use case is overcoming financial restrictions and fast cross border remittance to solve emergencies. To provide a backstory, my aunt back in The Philippines had a medical emergency. My family was able to use lightning to quickly send money to help out.

其他方式都太慢了。至于帮助克服金融限制，它让我能在非洲其他国家自由消费，无需担心兑换外币的问题。这只是其中一个例子，我还收到过许多来自不同国家的类似故事。

The other options were too slow. As for helping overcome financial restrictions, it's helped me spend my money in other African countries without having to worry about getting foreign currency. That's just one I have so many stories people sent me about many different countries.

这些跟我说的完全无关。不过，我为那个人感到高兴。

None of that has anything to do with what I'm talking about. I mean, I'm very happy for that person.

这绝对与你刚才说的观点相关——它不是噱头，而是真实世界中不可思议的应用。

Absolutely has to do with the point that you just made that it's not Coke and that it's actually incredible real world

我无比热爱创新。我最希望的就是人们能持续获得廉价高效的即时支付，这很棒。但闪电网络的问题在于它反而让这变得更困难了。所以

love nothing innovation. I would love nothing more than for people to continue to have access to cheap and effective instant payments, and I think that's great. And I think a problem with Lightning is that it's making that much harder for people. So

我刚才提到的那个人，如果没有闪电网络就做不到这些

the person who I just talked about who couldn't do this without lightning

我们做不到。我不知道该如何继续，但我会尝试按时间倒序从最近的事情说起，最终我们会回到联邦协议的问题——关于你是否接受联邦协议功能取决于L1区块链上的资金位置这点，我们尚未定论。如果资金只是存放在多重签名交易中，那些人随时可能卷款跑路。用这个来反驳Zcash的隐私优势根本不成立。如果你把资产完全托管给别人，那...好吧。

We can't. I don't know how we could possibly proceed, but I'm gonna try to go in reverse chronological order with the most recent thing, and then we'll eventually get back to the Federated, which we I don't think we have closed the book on whether or not you have accepted that the fed what those protocols do depends on where the money is on the L1 blockchain, which if it's just sitting in a multisig transaction, then those people can rug you immediately. And that is not an acceptable way to argue against whether or not Zcash has better privacy. Just say if you custody it completely with someone else. Well, hey.

看，如果我直接交给Coinbase之类的平台，他们也能帮我保密，然后他们可以用SSL之类的技术。

Look. If I just gave it to Coinbase or whatever, they could also keep it private for me, And and then they could use, you know, SSL or something.

不，我...我不同意把比特币存储在联邦系统里。这是你需要权衡的取舍。

No. I'm I'm I'm not I I would agree with you that federation is is not something that you where you wanna store your Bitcoin. It's a trade off that you're gonna make

为了私下做些别的事情。

to do something else. Privately.

是的。我更倾向于...我是说，你现在有几个不同的选择。一个是把你的比特币换成垃圾币，另一个是使用铸币厂，还有其他多种操作方式。

Yeah. I would rather well, I mean, so you have a diff couple different options right now. One of them is to is to sell your Bitcoin for a shit coin. The other one is is to use a mint. The other one there are many different things you can do.

你说使用铸币厂，是指把钱存到L1的多重签名输出地址，然后这笔钱就不再属于你了吗？

When you say use a mint, you mean deposit to a multisig output on l one where the money is no longer yours?

不是。因为如果你把比特币存入闪电网络，然后快速通过Cashew进行隐私交易进出，你仍然可以通过闪电网络单方面退出，你只是在真正操作时才使用Cashew。

No. Because if you're depositing, like, your Bitcoin to the Lightning Network and then going very quickly in and out of Cashew to send a private transaction, like, is that not you still have unilateral exit through Lightning, so you're only using Cashew while you're actually doing it.

如果你把钱存到L1的闪电网络，那你的钱就在闪电网络里了。

If you deposit it to the Lightning Network on l one, then your money is in the Lightning Network.

但你仍然可以从闪电网络中单方面退出。

But you still have unilateral exit from Lightning.

通过某人路由对吧。如果你能通过一个丢弃信息的人路由，那或许有助于隐私。但你必须处理闪电网络的其他诸多问题。我是说，我认为闪电网络根本行不通。完全不。

Route through someone yeah. That if you could route if you routed through someone who discarded the information, that would maybe help you with privacy. You'd have to deal with lots of these other problems with the Lightning Network. I mean, I don't think the Lightning Network works at all. No.

你不行。所以，我认为它甚至无法运作。

You don't. So, I would it doesn't even work.

你认为闪电网络完全行不通吗？我刚告诉你有人在多个国家，它极大地帮助了他们日常使用场景。

You don't think the Lightning Network works at all? When I just told you about someone who was able to, like, in numerous countries, have it helped them majorly in their day to day let use case.

这不是我所说的行得通。你能想象一个

Well, that's not what I mean by work. So can you imagine a

第二次会议

second meeting

我可能有？

I might have?

我想我是接受的。嗯，当然。工作嘛。

I'm open to it, I guess. Yeah. Sure. Work.

假设有80亿人参加一场演唱会，由于场地设置问题，很难看到舞台。然后有人说，好吧，我们这样办：我们到前排去，站在彼此的肩膀上什么的。你能明白这种说法有多荒谬。

Well, let's say, you know, 8,000,000,000 people show up to a concert, and it's the way the concert's set up, it's too difficult to see the stage. And then some people say, okay. Here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna go to the front, and we're gonna stand on each other's shoulders or something. You could see how that is a ridiculous thing to say.

但这基本上就是闪电网络的论点——只有靠近前排的少数人能成功使用，而他们对L1字节的占用会排挤其他人。你无法形成足够的关键规模，80亿人不可能都用上。所以一两个人用过一两次，这根本不能说明问题——我甚至不认为这...

But that's basically the lightning argument is that some people like, a few people near the front will be able to get it to work, but their usage of the l one bytes will crowd out other people. You will not be able to get a significant critical mass. You won't be 8,000,000,000 people won't be able to use it. So the fact that one or two people use it once or twice, that doesn't I'm not even is that's

这完全是曲解。好吧，首先...

such a mischaracterization. Okay. So first of all

不是曲解，事实就是你无法让80亿人都使用闪电网络。

not a mischaracterization is that you can't get, like, 8,000,000,000 people to use the Lightning Network.

我从来没这么说过，而且完全同意你的观点。当然不可能。不，80亿人不会都用...

I've never said that, and I would totally agree with you. Of course. No. 8,000,000,000 people are not gonna use

闪电网络。我感兴趣的是，能否成功让80亿用户愉快地使用它。

Lightning Network. That's what interested in, is if you can get eight eight if you can onboard 8,000,000,000 happy users to it.

是的，闪电网络将带领我们达到80亿用户的方式是——闪电网络就像中枢神经系统贯穿其中

Yeah. The way Lightning the way Lightning is gonna take us to 8,000,000,000 is Lightning is the central nervous system through

这点我完全同意。

which I just agree.

这些不同的铸币厂和矿池将会相互通信。在底层，它们都在链上，然后像这样彼此交流。它们相互兼容，都说闪电网络的语言。这就是当前正在发生的准确描述。我是说，这就是

These different mints and pools are gonna talk to each other. And at the bottom, have on chain, and then they all talk to each other like this. And they're intercompatible, and they all speak the language of lightning. That's an accurate description of what's happening today. I mean That's what

我认为应该这么称呼。

I think is called.

不过，我的意思是，我只是在描述这个生态系统的架构。比如说，当我使用——就像

Well but, I mean, it's it's it's I'm just describing the architecture of the ecosystem. So for example, when I use, like

你说得对。你是对的。你是

You're right. You're You're

就像，当我在现实世界或互联网上交易购物时——那里人们真的会给我东西，所以这不只是测试网理论。我有电子现金，对吧，在钱包里，而商家收到的是比特币，不是电子现金。我相信你也知道，实际运作就是这样的。我可以随时随地私密消费。

You're Like, I use when I am transacting and buying things in the real world or on the Internet where people actually give me stuff, so it's not just some test net theory thing. I have e cash, okay, on a wallet, and I I the merchant is receiving Bitcoin, not e cash. This is how it works as I'm sure you know. And I can just go around and spend privately.

他们接收L1交易吗？

They receive l one transactions?

不是e也不是cashew。不。不。他们没有。不。

Not on e not on cashew. No. No. They don't. No.

Cashew甚至不明白L1是什么

Cashew does not even understand what l one

我是说。你说他们接收比特币。但他们不接收闪电网络。所以我不明白你那么说是什么意思。

meant to say. You said they receive Bitcoin. They don't receive lightning. So I didn't know what you meant by that.

闪电网络就是比特币。所以他们接收闪电网络。

Lightning is Bitcoin. So they receive lightning.

等等，不是你自己刚才说的吗？可能我听错了。但你说他们不接收闪电网络，只接收比特币。所以我才问的。

Well, don't you're the one who didn't you just say a moment ago? Maybe I misheard what you said. But you said they do not get Lightning. They get Bitcoin. So that's why I asked.

完全不知道。

Have no idea.

是的，抱歉。他们不接受电子现金，也不接受无记名票据的复制代币。他们接收的是实际形态的比特币

Yeah. Sorry. They don't receive e cash. They don't receive a bearer instrument copy token thing. They receive actual Bitcoin in the form

但是，我再次承认——我承认它在小规模下可行，但在所需规模上不行，而这正是我关心的全部。所以我对小规模运作没兴趣。我的意思是，你得在合适的地方...好吧。

of But, again, I admit that it I admit that it it works at a small scale, but it does not work at the required scale, which is the whole with the whole thing that I'm interested in. So I'm not interested in working in So scale. I'm I'm like, you know, you gotta eat where the Okay.

让我给你读一些闪电网络最近发生的事情。你可以对此发表看法。当然。就闪电网络在大规模运行方面来说...好的。

Let me me read you some some just some things that have happened in lightning recently. You can react to them. Sure. So as far as lightning runs on a big scale. Okay.

Block公司运营着一个路由节点，c等于...他们刚透露通过提供闪电网络服务能获得约9.7%的年化收益。我们说的是数千万美元的规模。他们通过闪电网络获得非托管收益，我觉得这很有意思。

So block has a has a routing node, c equals. So they just revealed that they make about 9.7% APR using this by providing lightning services to people. So we're talking 10s of millions of dollars here. And they're earning non custodial yield through lightning. I think that's really interesting.

规模较小的BitRefill公司年化收益是3.5%。所以这个被你说成是应付差事或愚蠢的技术，正在让企业无需放弃比特币所有权就能获得收益。另一个领域是微经济——Nostr平台上人们通过闪电网络互相发送Zap打赏

BitRefill, which is a smaller company, not at the same scale as block, of course, earns 3.5%. So this this technology that you're saying is cope and is silly or whatever, is allowing businesses to earn interest on their Bitcoin without giving it up. I think that's one really interesting thing. Another area is the micro economy. So Noster has a micro economy where people send each other Zaps using the Lightning Network.

过去几年里Nostr用户相互发送了500万次Zap，用于打赏和交易。这种完全无需许可的微经济没有闪电网络根本不可能实现。交易所采用方面，全球最大的币安、Coinbase、River等交易所都在使用闪电网络。像Steak and Shake这样的公司今天刚报告销售额大幅增长

There have been 5,000,000 Zaps over the last couple years by people on Nostr interacting with each other, tipping each other, buying things from each other. A totally permissionless micro economy, impossible without the Lightning Network. Completely impossible. Exchange adoption. You have Binance, the largest exchange in the world uses lightning, you have exchanges like Coinbase uses lightning, river uses lightning, you have companies like steak and shake, which just today, literally reported a massive increase in its sales.

你可以根据用户实际使用闪电网络的情况选择是否相信。最后我想说的是...（停顿）你可以回应了

I mean, you can trust it or not, based on people coming in and using the lightning network. Now, and my favorite one is the last one I'll I'll I'll give you just to Yeah. You can react.

那太棒了。

That was awesome.

整个整个国家都是如此。当我去哥斯达黎加和肯尼亚时，你会发现可以使用像Tando和Bitcoin Jungle这样的应用，通过闪电网络用比特币生活，可以支付给国内任何商家。这太神奇了。商家收到的是M Pesa或Cinpe这类移动货币，他们完全不需要了解比特币或闪电网络。

Entire entire countries. So when I went to Costa Rica, in Kenya, what happens there is you can use apps like Tando and Bitcoin Jungle, and you can live in Bitcoin through the Lightning Network, and you can pay any merchant in the country. It's amazing. So what happens is the merchant receives M Pesa or Cinpe, the the the mobile money. They don't they don't have to know what Bitcoin is at all or Lightning.

他们根本不需要知道这些是什么。你下载这个应用后，就可以使用比特币，通过闪电网络支付，对方收到的是当地法币。在肯尼亚和哥斯达黎加，由于闪电网络的存在，你基本上可以购买任何东西。我要强调的是，这些绝非小打小闹的创新。这不是可口可乐那种级别的改变。

They don't have to know what that stuff is at all. You download this app, and you can actually use your Bitcoin, and it goes out in the form of Lightning, and the person receives the local fiat currency. And you can buy anything in the country essentially in Kenya and Costa Rica because of the lightning network. This is these are these are not small scale innovations is all I'm I'm pushing back on. This is not Coke.

这是，

This is,

真的非常惊人。

like, really amazing.

你最初是什么时候接触闪电网络的？

When did you first get into the Lightning Network?

嗯，我是从能开始使用它的时候。在2021年去萨尔瓦多之前，我觉得它非常难用。那时候Moon钱包还在使用潜艇交换技术，作为闪电钱包已经有些落伍了，但我仍然认为它是个很棒的链上钱包。

Well, I was I was able to start using it. I found it very hard to use until the 2021 when I went to El Salvador. And back then, the moon wallet, which which which uses a swap submarine swap. So it's not kind of fallen off in terms of a lightning wallet. I still think it's a great on chain wallet.

但当时它确实运作得非常出色。我在萨尔瓦多四处走动时，对闪电网络的优异表现感到十分震惊。比如我能够

But at the time, it worked really well. And I was walking around El Salvador pretty blown away by how well the lightning network worked. Like I was able

通过

to

仅用

just

当然。你知道

Of course. You know that

月亮钱包在其上的旅程。

the moon wallet trip on it.

当然，对吧？月亮钱包的潜艇交换意味着你进行一笔链上交易来支持闪电网络。所以这有点像，你知道，每笔闪电交易都附带一笔链上交易。因此这有点

Of course. Right? The the moon wallet the submarine swap means that you make an on chain transaction in order to help the Lightning. So it's a bit of a you know, it's kind of like every lightning transaction comes with an on chain transaction. So it's a little bit of

嗯，这就是原因所在，对吧。所以我说现在，我们会使用像凤凰钱包或宙斯钱包，或者很快，萨托希之墙将以自托管闪电钱包的形式重返美国。这真是令人振奋的消息。是的。展示了闪电网络的成长与繁荣。

a Well, that's why that's why right. So that's why I said so now today, we do stuff like Phoenix or you would use Zeus or or soon, Wall of Satoshi is coming back into The United States with a self custodial Lightning Wallet. It's pretty amazing news. Yeah. Showing the the growth and thriving of the Lightning Network.

是的。

Yeah.

听着，我能看出你对闪电网络充满热情，这很棒。我要告诉你我的闪电网络故事。好吗？这是我准备的笔记。为了这次讨论，我把这些都写下来了，说实话我删减了很多内容，因为它实在太长了。

Listen, I can tell that you're very passionate about the Lightning Network, which is great. And I'm just gonna tell you my Lightning story. Okay? And this is I wrote it's a note. And to prepare for this, I wrote all this down, and honestly, I cut a lot of it because it goes on and on.

我会跳过一些细节。但基本上，我是在2015年第一次听说闪电网络的，当时非常兴奋。但即便在那时，就有一两件关于它的事情让我觉得有点奇怪，比如在当时的巨型论坛Reddit上，每个人都持有强烈观点。大区块派都讨厌它，小区块派都热爱它。

I'm gonna skip some points. But basically, I first heard about the Lightning Network in 2015, and I was very excited about it. But even back then, there were one or two things that were a little weird about it, such as on Reddit, which were the huge discussion forum of the time, everyone had a strong opinion. The large blockers all hated it. Small blockers all loved it.

但YouTube上唯一的相关视频——Taz Draja在SF BitDevs讲解闪电网络的讲座，只有320次观看。其中至少有四五次是我看的，因为我反复观看了好几遍。我当时就想：为什么大家对这个只有300次观看的东西如此激动？根本没人看这个视频啊。我实在搞不懂。

But the only video on YouTube, which was Taz Draja's SF BitDev's lecture explaining what the Lightning Network is, that only had 320 views. And at least four or five of those views were mine because I watched it a few times over and over. And I was like, why does everyone have such a strong opinion about this thing that only has 300 views? No one's watching the YouTube video. And I was like, I don't know.

也许YouTube的统计不准确，或者有其他原因。但我实在太喜欢这个技术了，当时我正在做一个点对点的比特币预测市场项目（至今仍充满热情），我甚至重写了交易系统来支持闪电网络。于是我在闪电网络上创建了这种全新的市场评分规则链下交易方案，这个创意写于2016年3月——比你们使用Moon等应用早了整整五年。然后在2018年4月，我写了篇关于欺诈证明的长文，解决了L1欺诈证明区块的问题。

Maybe YouTube doesn't count or I don't know what's going on with that. But I really liked it so much that I had this thing, this peer to peer oracle Bitcoin prediction market thing that I'm still very passionate about. But I rewrote the trading so that you could do trading on the Lightning Network. So I had this completely new type of market scoring rule trade off chain on the Lightning Network, and I wrote this idea, and that was March 2016, five years before you were using Moon and wherever. And then in April 2018, I wrote this big post about fraud proofs, solve this problem of l one fraud proof blocks.

这个问题Eric Lombroso和Luke Dash Junior曾认为几乎无解——他们是对的。除非采用不同的信息传播方式（在这个案例中就是支付通道），否则确实无解。所以我最初对它极其兴奋，就像你现在这样。但后来我开始遇到各种重大问题，不断冒出奇怪的问题，而人们却...举个例子，2019年我去群岛时遇到的情况：当时见到了BlueWallet的Waldo（应该是第一次见Waldo Satoshi）。

It's a problem that Eric Lombroso and Luke Dash Junior thought were kind of like almost impossible to solve, which they're right. It is impossible unless you have a different way of connecting to people to learn about, which is, in this case, the payment channels. So I was originally very, very, very excited about it. I'm just as excited as you are now. But then I, you know, started encountering all these these huge problems with it, these weird questions would pop up, and people would have no so one of the things that happened was I went to an archipelago in 2019 where I saw Waldo, I think it was BlueWallet and Waldo Satoshi at the first time.

所有人都在用闪电网络互相转账，给彼此转4聪、10聪甚至1聪。我当时就想：这完全不合理啊！因为根据我的理解，你需要先开通并注资通道，等待确认。于是我问那些人：这是托管方案吗？真的用了闪电网络吗？结果在场没人能回答。

And everyone was going around, people were giving each other four sats or 10 sats or even one sats using the Lightning Network. And I was like, Oh, that doesn't make any sense because have to because since I knew how it worked, you had to open channel first and fund the channel, and you have to wait for it to confirm. And I thought, Oh, so I asked people, Oh, is custodial? Does it really use the Lightning Network? None of the people there.

有一大群人对于使用闪电网络感到非常兴奋，就像你当初一样。他们中没人真正理解托管与非托管的区别。年复一年，你听到人们在使用闪电网络，然后你问他们，'哦，你们用什么钱包？'他们会说，'沃特·中本聪'。

There's this huge group of people who are so excited to use the Lightning Network. It's as excited as you were. No one there had any idea what that even meant about custodial versus non custodial. And then year after year after year, you hear about people using Lightning Network, and then you ask them, Oh, what wallet do use? They say, Walters Satoshi.

正如你我以及在场许多人所知，托管式闪电网络并不真正使用闪电网络。那里没有HTLCs（哈希时间锁定合约），没有资金交易，也没有比特币交易，只是他们服务器上的一个数据库罢了。

As you and I know, and probably many people in the audience know, the custodial Lightning does not use the Lightning. There's no HTLCs. There's no funding transaction. There is no Bitcoin transaction. It is just a database in on their end.

所以这根本没有用到比特币，也没有实际使用

So there's no use of Bitcoin. There's no usage of

这完全不对。商家使用发票或闪电地址进行交易。

That's not true at all. The merchant you you you use in you use invoices or or Lightning addresses.

所以只是为了澄清一下

So just just to be clear

给观众解释清楚。好吧，假设我今天是一名官员

for the audience. Okay. So if if I'm an officer today

观众们看起来状态都不错，但你自己可以判断，不。

audience through all looking good for yourself, and you can determine No.

你应该使用这项技术。比如说，如果可能的话就采用

You should use the technology. Like, so if possible has if

在闪电网络上这基本上是不可能强制执行的，特别是当他们尚未加入闪电网络时。

It's not possible to essentially enforce that on the Lightning Network when they when they have not joined the Lightning Network yet.

我不是在争论那个。我要说的是，即便是托管式闪电网络也使用闪电网络。举个例子，如果我在Primal上，或者Paul在Primal上，比如PaulPaul@Primal.net这个闪电地址是托管式的。

I'm not arguing that. What I'm arguing is is is the fact that even custodial Lightning uses Lightning. So, for example, if I'm on Primal and or Paul's on Primal at PaulPaul@Primal.net. Okay? And and and that's his Lightning address and it's custodial.

我可以从我的Albie Hub移动自托管闪电钱包给你转账。这是可行的，资金确实能转移。

Can send that I can send you money from my Albie Hub mobile self custodial Lightning wallet. It works. The money moves. This is

钱是转到了我的托管方那里，并没有直接到我手上。

The money goes to my custodian. It doesn't go to me.

你你你你你完全没抓住重点。钱是通过闪电地址转给你的。

You you you you you you are missing the point. It goes to you you you using the Lightning address.

恕我直言，我认为你可能被其他激动人心的说法误导了

Think you have been I'm sorry to say this, but I think you have been misled by other exciting

我没有被误导。我非常清楚发生了什么。你你实际上是在说闪电网络并没有真正传递价值给我——我这个托管账户持有者。老兄，我是其中的一部分，我明白‘托管’这个词的含义，但它确实是从我的钱包通过闪电网络转移到别人那里的。

I've not been misled. I know exactly what's happening. You you're you're literally saying the Lightning Network doesn't actually carry the value to Not to me. Custodial holder of I'm a part of that, dude. I understand what the word custodial means, but it goes to it it moves out of my wallet to someone else over the Lightning Network.

不过不是给我，不是给用户。呃，

Not to not to me, though. Not to the user. Well,

如果你使用的是自我托管的Albie Primal，你知道的，Nostril支持的账户，那当然会直接转给你。分叉完美。

if you're using a self custodial, Albie Primal, know, Nostril powered account, of course, does. It goes right to you right away. Forks perfect.

我们现在讨论的是托管式闪电网络，不是吗？

We're talking about custodial lightning right now. Were we not?

嗯，我刚才是在说明一个观点。即使是托管式闪电网络也使用了闪电技术，它并不是使用链上比特币或某种错误

Well, I was making a point. Like, even custodial lightning uses lightning. It's not like it uses on chain Bitcoin or an error

或者说，如果每个环节都是托管的，那么它就没有使用比特币网络或闪电网络。所以只有非托管部分才真正使用了闪电网络。

or leg if every leg is custodial, then it does not use the Bitcoin network or the Lightning network. So it's only the non custodial parts that use the Lightning network.

保罗，资金是从我这里发出的——一个自我托管的闪电网络用户。

Paul, it's coming it's coming from me, a self custodial Lightning user.

让使用宙斯系统或类似服务的人来操作，他正在接收比特币，就在交易的另一端

Use it who is on Zeus or something, he is receiving Bitcoin at the other end of

那笔交易。华莱士·聪，但其实你可以用任何方式。你可以用Visa卡，可以用Visa或其他任何方式。所以闪电网络

that transaction. Wallace Totoshi, but you could use anything. You could be using Visa. You could be using Visa or any other thing. So the lightning

你这部分不可能

You part is couldn't be

使用Visa卡。Aviso如何再次付款到Alex的宙斯钱包？

using Visa. How does Aviso pay again to Alex's Zeus wallet?

如果因为为了

If because in order

要付款给他，你需要了解他希望如何接收款项。所以他会说，我想通过闪电钱包收款。然后你说，你和Walter Satoshi托管方有合作关系，你们可以按自己选择的方式结算。

to pay him in order to pay him, you need to know about how he wants to receive the money. So he'll say, I wanna receive the money in my Lightning Wallet. Then you say, you have your own relationship with Walter Satoshi custodian, and you can settle up however you like.

好吧。保罗，我觉得这里...我认为这正是我觉得使用这些工具的地方，而且我甚至还没...我还没

Alright. Well, Paul, here's here's where I think you can I just I I think that this is where I think using the stuff and I haven't even gotten I haven't

甚至还没谈到我对闪电网络的批评，但我们可以聊聊

even gotten to any of my critiques of lightning, but we can can talk

关于这个好吗？我们会讲到那点的。但但，关键是，你提到Visa。托管式闪电网络最酷的地方在于它不需要身份验证。

about okay? We'll get there. But but, like, here's the key thing. You talk about Visa. What's so cool even about custodial Lightning is it doesn't require ID.

所以即使我是Nostr的新手，在Primal遇到Alex，而你在Primal遇到Paul，我们能无需许可地共享信息，不必提交资料或持有Visa卡——正如你所说，这确实很美妙。

So even if I'm on a newbie on Nostr and I met Alex at Primal and you're at Paul at Primal, the fact that we can permissionlessly share information without having to put in information or have a Visa card to your point is is quite beautiful.

当你使用写作网络时。是的。但这方面，我是说，这位是专家。是啊。我感觉被一万个观点淹没，根本没时间全部反驳。

When you use the writing network. Yes. But this is well, I mean, is an expert in this hour. Yeah. I'm getting, like, run over by 10,000 points, and there's hardly enough time to refute them all.

我只是，呃，

I would just Well,

我必须回应这一点

I have to respond to this

这个想法。好吧。

idea. Alright.

不，只是为了把观点说完，就像‘当然’。他们将踏上旅程，最终你会学会如何自我保管。然后然后

No. Just to finish the point, like Sure. They're going to journey, and eventually, you learn how to self custody it. And then and then

我同意。

I agree.

它确实有效。

It it works.

我同意这点。我完全同意这点。应该让人们逐步适应，我们不必在第一天就要求自我保管。我认为这是个巨大的错误，我们应该让人们循序渐进。我完全赞同。

I agree with that. I agree with that. Should ramp people up, and we it doesn't have to be self custodial on day one. I think that's a huge mistake in that we should ramp people up. I completely agree.

我不同意的是，这居然能证明闪电网络有效。实际上恰恰相反。它证明了闪电网络无效且是个骗局，我们都被他们欺骗了。

What I disagree with is that this is somehow evidence that Lightning Network works. It's actually the exact opposite. It's evidence that it does not work and that it's a sham, And that we're they were all lying to

所以大家都...好吧。那我们不如回到你回应我刚才说的那些关于闪电网络如何改变世界的话题上，我正在努力...好吧，请继续。

all So are all Okay. So why don't we go back to you responding to all the things I just told you about how lightning's changing the world and and I'm trying. Okay. Go ahead.

我正在努力。内容太多了，你知道的？我的笔都快没墨水了...不过嗯...你提到的诺斯特让我很感兴趣。

I am trying. There's a lot there's so many things. You know? My my pen is gonna run out of ink, I But Mhmm. What it interest you you brought up Noster.

不知道你是否感兴趣，Noster的联合创始人Fiyad Jaf。他最早告诉我他属于那些认为闪电网络应该被彻底废弃、最好从未被发明出来的人之一。然后他是个大人物。

I don't know if it would interest you to know that Fiyad Jaf, cocreator of Noster. He was one of the first people to tell me he's on my little story of timeline of people who said Lightning Network is should be burned to the ground, and it would be better if it had never been invented. Then He's a huge Hey.

说得好。

Great point.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。说得好。而且他无法阻止其他人加入Nostr并创建Zaps，因为这是GG五十...

Yeah. Great point. And he he he cannot stop other people from joining Nostr and creating Zaps because that was something that GG fifty

想到的。说得好。关键在于这是你尊敬的人，因为他们喜欢Noster。你说Noster很了不起，但我想说的是，顺便提一下，Noster的创始人——我只是试图描绘一种可能性，即它可能存在一些缺陷。另一件事是Taz Dryja对比特币的评价，他对闪电网络给出了非常冷静的分析。

thought did. Good point. The point is this is someone that you respect because they like Noster. You said, Noster's this great thing, but I'm just saying, by the way, the creator of Noster, I'm trying to just paint a little bit of picture here that might be possible that there might be some flaws. Thing is So, another thing is Taz Dryja came on to what Bitcoin did, and he gave this very sober account of the light.

他开始谈论闪电网络有很多做不到的事情。他说大家都以为闪电网络会是最棒的发明。然后他指出，实际上闪电网络做不到那些——他列举了一长串事项。

And he started talking about how there's lots of things that can't do. He said everyone's like, Lightning's gonna be the best thing ever. And then he says, well, actually, the Lightning Network can't do that, Referring to a long list of things.

所以...

So so

那是2019年的库存。

it was inventory 19.

你你引用的这些都是很久以前的事了，就这一点来说，保罗，因为我必须我不能就这么算了。你刚才说Fiat Jaf说过闪电网络很烂之类的话。是的。就在刚才我们谈话的时候，这是Fiat Jafa Nastr。我刚通过闪电网络给他转了钱。

You're you're quoting this stuff from forever ago just just on that point, Paul, because I gotta I can't let this slide. You just said Fiat Jaf said Lightning sucks or whatever. Yeah. Just now, while we were talking, here's here's Fiat Jafa Nastr. I just sent him money over the Lightning Network.

明白吗？所以是的。但他他还没设置好，但他一直在用。

Okay? So Yeah. But he he hasn't set up, and he uses it all the time.

我知道。但为什么你觉得这完全不相关呢？我想了解你的

I know. But why do you think that that's irrelevant at all? I would like to get into your

觉得这值得注意。你你你觉得他多年前说的话更值得注意？我我什么就像，这太搞笑了。所以你但你谈论的是2019年发生的事情。是的。

think that's notable. You you you think it's more notable what he said years ago? I I What Like, this is so funny. So you're but you're talking about something that happened in 2019. Yeah.

闪电网络在2019年根本不能用。所以人们当然会感到沮丧。我告诉过你，直到2021年它几乎都无法使用。即便如此，它也只是以一种奇怪的方式勉强运作，并没有真正正常工作。像这样复杂的东西需要很长时间才能启动和运行。

Lightning didn't function in 2019. So, of course, people were frustrated. I told you I couldn't even it was almost unworkable until 2021. And even that, it only worked kind of in a weird way where it didn't really work properly. It takes a long time for something like this so sophisticated to get up and running.

我觉得Fiyadjaf有个观点，认为没人应该使用闪电网络。他研究过，然后决定把自己的声誉押在它不会成功的事实上。这就是我提起它的原因而且

I feel like Fiyadjaf has, like, an opinion that no one should use lightning. He has looked into it, and he's decided that he he's put his reputation on the fact that it's not going to work. That's why I brought it And

然而他却每天都在用？天天如此，老兄。

yet and yet he uses it all the time every day? Every day, man.

小。不。他没用过。我是说，你应该让他...你应该跟他谈谈，问问他关于

Small. No. He does not use it. Well, I mean, well, you should let it you should talk to him and ask him about

但是保罗，对，我觉得我们应该继续讨论

But, Paul, yeah, I think we should move on to

菲亚特那件事，因为我知道我们已经谈到这儿了。就像我们正在讨论

the Fiat thing because we I know we've gotten here. It's like we're talking about

但我们讨论的是菲亚特·贾夫很久以前说过的事。今天他不在场没法表达观点。所以我们不如跳过

but what we talk about is something that Fiat Jaf said a long time ago. We don't have him here to tell us his opinions today. So let's, like, move on from the

菲亚特·杰夫。我告诉你，菲亚特·杰夫他运营着——或者说共同运营着一个叫'闪电网络最佳时刻'的Telegram群组，里面日复一日全是闪电网络故障和各种尴尬场面的截图。我写过一篇文章记录了海量历史人物语录，叫《闪电网络黑账单》。你上truthcoin.info就能查到，就叫《闪电网络黑账单》。开篇全是闪电网络开发者自己说闪电网络行不通的语录。

Fiat Jeff. Well, I'll tell you this, Fiat Jeff, he runs it like a he or he co runs a telegram group called the Lightning's Best Moments, where he just has endless screenshots day after day of Lightning Network not working and in various embarrassing situations, which is part I have article where I document lots and lots of quotes from people across time, which is called the LN Black Bill. So if you go to truthcoin.info, you can look it up. It's called the LN Black Bill. The first section is just quotes from Lightning developers who say that the Lightning Network is not gonna work.

所以

So that

嗯，刚才确实有效。我和另一个不知道是什么身份的人。

Well, it worked just now. Me me and a different who knows what he is at.

你明白我的意思吗，先生，

You what I'm saying, sir,

你

you

知道吗，关于你点击了一个按钮的事实。我是说，你甚至不知道我在谈论的是真正的闪电网络（带有HTLCs）与托管式闪电网络的区别。

know, about the fact that you have tapped a button. I mean, you didn't even know that the I'm talking about the real Lightning Network with HTLCs versus custodial Lightning Network.

这不是托管的，既不是Fiat Jaffa也不是我使用的托管式闪电网络。那是一个自我托管的Albee中心产品，我只是用它来完成那笔支付。

This isn't custodial to neither neither Fiat Jaffa or I use custodial Lightning. That was a self custodial Albee hub product that I just used to make that payment.

我是说，就像，你说抱歉你说。我的意思是，我没有，但让我继续讲我的故事一会儿。

I mean, like, you say sorry you say. I mean, I don't but let me continue my story here for a second.

好的。继续

Okay. Go

先说之前的事。我原本非常兴奋，后来塔吉做了关于比特币的采访，他说实际上比特币没那么好。2022年2月我在比特币开发邮件列表里来回讨论了一些问题，有人问到BIT300时，他们又提出和闪电网络对比看看。

ahead. Because I was originally very excited, and then, you know, Taj did his interview on what Bitcoin did, and he was like, Actually, it's not that great. And then I had some questions back and forth on the Bitcoin Dev mailing list in 2022 in February. And some people asked some questions about the BIT300, and then they said, Oh, what about this? And compared it to Lightning.

于是我重新用闪电网络计算了数据，结果发现闪电网络的用户接入情况非常糟糕。这导致我列出了闪电网络的一系列问题，并促使我写了那篇《闪电网络的局限性》的文章。自那以后，很多人组织了专题讨论之类的活动——这些我在艾伦·布莱克比尔的视频里都记录过。但后来还发生了一件事：有两名闪电网络公司的工程师私下联系了我。

So I redid the numbers with Lightning, and the onboarding situation is terrible with Lightning. So this led to a long list of problems that I had with the Lightning Network, and it led to an earlier post that I wrote called Lightning Limitations. And then ever since writing that post, all these people have done like, you know, a panel or various other. And this is stuff that I've documented on this Ellen Blackbills video. But another thing that later happened was someone who worked for a lightning company, an engineer, two of them in fact, They messaged me.

其中一位是迈克·蒂德韦尔，另一位我就不点名了。他们发消息说：'其实我是闪电网络的工程师，直到看了你的文章才真正明白闪电网络的运作原理，意识到你是对的——它很可能行不通。'

One of them was Mike Tidwell. I don't wanna say the other one was. But they messaged me and said, well, you know, I'm actually an engineer on lightning. And it wasn't until I read your quote that I realized how lightning actually works, and I realized that you were right that actually it's probably not going to work.

好的。

Okay.

后来我受邀在MIT比特币博览会上演讲。《精通闪电网络》的作者雷内·皮卡德也出席了，他听完我的演讲后称赞说讲得很精彩。之后轮到他演讲时——

And then I went to present at MIT. I was invited to the MIT Bitcoin Expo, And Rene Picard, the author of the book Mastering Lightning, he was there. Saw my talk and he said, Oh, this is great. What a great talk. Then he was giving a talk.

他听了我的演讲，我也去听了他的。他的演讲主题就是闪电网络存在的问题，内容极其冷静客观。不仅演讲本身令人沮丧，后来在走廊交谈时他更坦言：作为想讨论闪电网络技术问题的人，他经常得不到演讲邀请或被主办方淡化处理。

He went to my talk, I went to his talk. His talk was about problems with the Lightning Network. It was extremely sober talk. And not only was the talk very dispiriting, but I had the opportunity to talk to him later in the hallway. And he basically said that it's annoying for him because if he wants to talk about engineering problems with lightning, he often doesn't get invited to speak or he gets deemphasized, he thought.

我当时就想：这太糟糕了。最后就是和巴拉克相关的事——他显然深谙闪电网络，曾两次故意搞垮闪电网络取乐。

And I thought, well, this is terrible. What a terrible situation. And then the final thing would be this thing with Barack, where he's someone who clearly understands he crashed the Lightning Network for fun twice. Clearly understands the Lightning Network.

他搞砸了一个实现版本，不过没关系。继续说吧。

He crashed one implementation of it, but sure. Go on.

是的。他创建时说，开发ARC的动机是为了解决闪电网络的问题，但发现必须完全另起炉灶才能解决。刚完成这个，他就让一群原本高喊'闪电网络天下第一'的人立刻转向支持ARC，就像《1984》里那句'我们一直在与东亚交战'的翻版。

Yeah. And he had created and he said that the motivation for creating ARC was that he was trying to fix problems with lightning, but he couldn't do it without creating a completely separate thing. Then right after he did that, he got a bunch of people to It's kind of like in 1984 where they said, We've always been at war with East Asia or whatever. A bunch of people who've just been saying before, lightning is the best thing ever. They just switched to ARC.

所以，你可能对你说的每件事都正确。我知道这节目有很多闪电网络的粉丝是我无法说服的。我必须承认，上帝让我来到这个星球时没给我超强说服力，我理解也接受这点。虽然不能总是说服别人很痛苦。

So, you may be right about every single thing that you could say ever. And I'm sure that there's going be a lot of people who are fans of lightning on this show who I am not going to convince. And I just have to say that, you know, God did not put me on this planet to be an incredibly persuasive person, and I understand that. And I accept that, you know? Painful though it is to not always be perflasive.

但我觉得，为自己建立准确的世界认知更有趣。我喜欢辩论，因为碰撞观点和压力测试很有趣。检验观点最好的方式就是抛出来说：但在我看来，这整个事情就是个Theranos式的骗局，纯粹浪费时间。

But I think I have more fun just for me getting my own accurate picture of the world. And I enjoy debate because I think it's fun to bounce ideas off people and stress test the ideas. One of the best things you can do to an idea is throw it out there and say, but I'm just telling you, from my point of view, it looks like this whole thing is just a complete Theranos style scam that is just a waste of time.

丹尼，再说最后一点我们就继续。我列举了这么多，甚至还没提最重要的——今年随时可能发生的：全美数百万台Square刷卡机都将支持闪电支付。或者说电子现金支付，最酷的是电子现金兼容闪电协议。意味着今年夏天任何美国人去咖啡店（前提是有Square刷卡机）都能用电子现金买咖啡，对抗监控资本主义。

So, one more thing, Danny, and then we'll move on. But but like, okay, great. So, all the things I read you, and I didn't even mention the biggest one of all, which is that this year, imminently, any day or week now, all the Square readers in The United States, which is millions of units, will accept lightning payments. So or e cash payments, which is one of the coolest part about e cash is that it it it speaks lightning. So means that anybody in The United States this summer will be able to go to their local coffee shop or whatever, assuming that that that, you know, your coffee shop has a Square reader, and you can use eCash to buy your coffee, which helps us fight surveillance capitalism.

这些由金融巨头、Coinbase、Square推动的大规模升级怎么解释？如果闪电网络真如你所说是个失败品，为什么他们都在采用？能详细说说你的看法吗？

So all these massive rollouts and upgrades done by Finance, Coinbase, Square, you know, if if Lightning doesn't work, what what explains that to you? Why do you think they're all adopting this thing that you think is your failure? Like, can you can you shed more light on that?

当然。这就是典型的群体思维，就像我之前说的，只是种具有传染性的文化现象。

Of course. Yeah. Well, this whole thing is a huge group think. It's exactly what I mentioned before. It's just a cultural contagious idea.

比如说，交易所并非真心实意地采用闪电网络。他们之所以拖拖拉拉，是因为他们认为这实际上没多大帮助。如今，在大量文化关注和研发投入后，闪电网络已达到一定质量水平，对某些人而言，他们可能希望快速在交易所间存取或转移资金。但你可以看出，正是因为技术太糟糕，他们才迟迟不愿真正实施闪电网络。老实说，我也不确定。

So, like, for example, the exchanges did not, like, adopt lightning because they really wanted to. They dragged their feet because they think they know that it doesn't really help that much. Now, after a huge amount of of cultural attention and R and D effort, the Lightning Network has achieved enough of a level of quality that for some people, they may want to deposit or withdraw or move money among exchanges very quickly. But you can see it's because the technology is so bad that they dragged their feet for so long on actually implementing the Lightning Network. You know, I'm not sure.

我们无从知晓。通过链上交易很难判断，你只能看到手续费。即便如此，你也无法确定哪些是真实的。我认为Bitrefill的数据应该最可靠，因为以他们的商业模式运作方式，数据很可能准确无误，所以他们应该清楚实际情况。

We don't know. It's hard for us to figure out with the on chain transactions, you kind of see the fee. And even then, you don't know, you know, what counts as real. I certainly think the bit refill data, it would be the most reliable because I can't imagine just the way their business model works. Their data is probably accurate, so I think that they would know.

如果你仔细看过Serge的演讲，他强调实际上莱特币支付比比特币闪电支付更多，但这并不意味着闪电网络行不通的原因在于——我深入研究过其运作细节——L1层没有足够字节容纳所有人。与谁开通通道存在巨大风险：对方可能锁定你的资金两周，甚至根据通道设置窃取资产。还存在反直觉的入账流动性问题，用户体验极差且成本高昂。

If you actually look at Serge's presentation, he emphasizes that actually there's more Litecoin payments than than Bitcoin Lightning payments, but that's not to say that the reason why Lightning doesn't work is because I've actually investigated the details of how it works. And there's not enough bytes on l one to onboard everyone. The there's a huge risk as to who you open the channel with. They can lock your funds for two weeks or even steal from you depending on how they surround you in the channel. There's a huge inbound liquidity problem, which is counterintuitive and has terrible user experience and is expensive.

高容量支付通道消耗过多字节，导致难以实现。当L1手续费率达到某个水平时——就像你在铭文交易中看到的那样——有时支付会失败。路由和支付费率必须接近零才可行，但实际上却非常高。那些欺骗大众的伪托管式闪电服务，本质上歪曲了闪电网络的真实功能和本质。总的来说，采用率仍然很低。

The HCLCs consume so many bytes that they cannot really make. If the l one fee rate is a certain amount, they because you saw this with ordinals where they so they they're sometimes the payments fail. The routing and the payment rate that has to be near zero to be viable, but instead it's very high. The fake custodial lightning that has tricked everyone into being dishonest and to just basically misrepresenting what the Lightning Network is and what it does. Basically, you know, the the uptake is still pretty low.

根据我上次调研（这也是我最后一次深入研究），隐私性极其糟糕。我查阅资料时再次看到闪电网络的局限性。在一次小组讨论中，Matt Corallo明确表示实现隐私保护将非常困难。我的信息来自顶尖专家，而我知道这些认知需要很长时间才能普及到大众层面。

The privacy is terrible according to the well, this is the last time I looked into it. So I looked into it, and I saw oh, yet again, I saw Lightning limitations. I saw a panel, and there was Matt Corallo, and he said, you know, that it's actually it's gonna be difficult to get the privacy. So I get my information from what I regard as the top experts, and I know that it takes a long time to filter down to the masses.

本期节目由纳斯达克上市的最大可再生能源比特币矿企Iron赞助。Iron不仅为比特币网络提供算力，还利用可再生能源为AI领域提供尖端计算资源。我们与创始人Dan和Will合作已久，对他们坚持的价值观印象深刻，特别是对当地社区和可持续算力的承诺。无论您对比特币挖矿还是AI算力感兴趣，Iron都在树立行业标杆。详情请访问iren.com。

This episode is also brought to you by Iron, the largest Nasdaq listed Bitcoin miner using 100% renewable energy. Iron are not just powering the Bitcoin network, they also provide cutting edge computing resources for AI, all backed by renewable energy. We've been working with the founders, Dan and Will, for a long time now and have been really impressed with their values, especially when it comes to their commitment to local communities and sustainable computing power. So whether you're interested in mining Bitcoin or harnessing AI compute power, Iron is setting the standard. Visit iron.com to learn more, which is iren.com.

本期节目由Anchor Watch赞助。比特币持有者夜不能寐的担忧之一就是冷存储可能出现重大失误，而这正是Anchor Watch的用武之地。他们的双重保障体系包括：时间锁定的多重签名保险库，以及您专属的伦敦劳合社A+评级保险保单。您掌握私钥，Anchor Watch承担风险。

This episode is brought to you by Anchor Watch. Now one of the things that keeps us Bitcoiners up at night is an idea of a critical error in your Bitcoin cold storage, and this is where Anchor Watch comes in. With AnchorWatch, you're protected by two things. You have their time locked multisig vault, and you have your own a plus rated Lloyd's of London backed insurance policy. So you get to hold your keys, and AnchorWatch holds the risk.

无论您担心的是遗产规划、租金纠纷、自然灾害，还是自己犯的愚蠢错误，Anchor Watch都能为您提供全面保障。全额投保的托管服务费率低至0.55%，面向美国境内的个人及商业客户。请访问anchorwatch.com获取报价，并了解有关安全保障选项及覆盖范围的详细信息。网址是anchorwatch.com。

So whether you're worried about inheritance planning, rent attacks, natural disasters, or just your own silly mistakes, you're fully protected by Anchor Watch. Rates for fully insured custody start as low as point five five percent and are available for individuals and commercial customers located in The US. Speak to Anchor Watch for a quote and for more details about your security options and coverage over anchorwatch.com. That's anchorwatch.com.

你打算引用Matt...你打算在这里引用Matt Corallo的话作为...

You're gonna cite Matt you're gonna cite Matt Corallo here as as

作为闪电网络的专家吗？

as an expert on Lightning?

对。是的。不。不。我是说，不是。

Yeah. Yep. No. No. I mean, no.

意思是，为了支持你关于闪电网络是个失败项目的说法，你要引用他的话来佐证？

Meaning, to to back up what you're saying about Lightning being a failure, you're gonna cite him on that?

我不是刚告诉你吗？他在这次演讲中说闪电网络在实现隐私性或像样的隐私保护方面还有很长的路要走。这就是他的原话。所以我视他为专家。

Didn't I just tell you that he said in this talk that Lightning will has a long way to go to be private or have any decent privacy. That's what he said in this. So I find him as an expert.

我...是的。我是说我们都应该对闪电网络持批判态度，但他本人可是全职从事闪电网络开发工作的。

I yeah. I mean, we should be all be critical of Lightning, but he also works full time on Lightning as his job.

我做了个演讲。你参加TabCon大会了吗？我很好奇，不记得在那里见过你。

Gave a talk. Did you did you attend TabCon forever? I'm curious. I don't remember seeing you there.

没有。同事们参加了。我们...是的，我们每年都赞助这个会议。

So No. Colleagues do. And we yeah. We I'm aware. We sponsor it every year.

这是个很棒的会议，但我一直没能参加。

It's a great conference. I haven't been able to come.

马特·科拉尔每年都会做一个名为'闪电网络烂透了'的演讲。有时他会改标题，然后说，

Matt Corral has given a talk every year called lightning is broken AF. And sometimes he changes the title, and he says,

我知道。他的工作就是帮助改进它，而且他做得非常出色。

know I'm it. His job is to help make it better, and he does a great job of it.

好吧，确实如此。

Well, okay. Exactly.

所以马特·马特，我认为他非常出色，长期以来一直对闪电网络持批评态度。几周前我刚在拉斯维加斯和他录了节目，现在是他对闪电网络最看好的时候。但我想回到一个话题...

And and so Matt Matt, I think, is is brilliant, and he has been very critical of of Lightning for a long time. I just did a show with him in Vegas a couple weeks ago, and he is the most bullish I've ever heard him on Lightning at the moment. But I wanna get back to one

我坦然承认这一点。

I readily admit it.

但我想回到一个非常重要的关键点，我认为这也是你们双方在这个问题上各说各话的部分原因。保罗，当你说闪电网络不会成功时，你具体指的是什么？因为我觉得很多支持闪电网络的人并没有说这是解决比特币扩容问题的万能良药。

But I wanna get back to one really important key point, which is I think partially why you guys are talking past each other on this. When you say that Lightning's not gonna work, Paul, like, what do you mean by that precisely? Because, like, I don't think many people who are proponents of the Lightning Network are saying this is, the golden bullet to fix Bitcoin's scale.

他们会

They're gonna

扩展到80亿用户，但它仍然可以成为比特币技术栈中非常重要的工具，而不意味着失败。

gonna scale to 8,000,000,000 people, but it can still be a very important tool in the stack of Bitcoin and not have failed.

确实。我写过关于欺诈证明的内容，那需要支付通道。所以这可能是它的一个用途——虽然我不知道是否有人会在意欺诈证明。但所谓的万能良药，我认为它被包装成L2解决方案，被赋予了它实际并不具备的各种美好特质。而且我觉得它确实在对抗真相文化，而我认为这种文化是必要的。

Indeed. And I wrote that fraud proof thing, which would require payment channels. So that would be one use for it that is not I don't know if anyone will ever care about fraud proofs. But but, yeah, I mean, the golden bullet, and I think it is it is represented as the l two, and it is represented as having all these desirable qualities that it doesn't have. And I do think it is it cuts count counters the culture of truth, which I see as necessary.

任何企业要想成功，就必须保持诚实。确实很多人会说'我对闪电网络持批判态度'——这种表态能让他们再领一年薪水。但极少有人能诚实面对闪电网络，直接说'我们根本不该搞这个'——这就是我的观点。部分原因在于'银弹效应'同时击中了两个概念：既要扩展到80亿用户，又要明白不仅货币具有网络效应，技术栈本身也有网络效应。

If any enterprise is gonna succeed, it has to be willing to be honest. It's it's true that a lot of people can say, oh, I'm critical of the Lightning Network in a way that will give them they'll let them collect the salary for another year. But very few people are able to be honest with the Lightning Network and saying, like, we just shouldn't do this at all, which is my guess. And one of the reasons why is the silver bullet thing is it hits two ideas at once, which is you scale to 8,000,000,000 people. Not only does money have network effects, but any tech stack, the tech stack also has network effects.

所以当某个L2方案越来越流行时，它往往会取代其他L2方案。就像我们现在的世界不会同时使用多个不同版本的蓝牙协议一样，最终人们只会标准化采用那个真正有效的方案。

So if as one l as a certain l two becomes more popular, it will tend to displace the other l twos. You know, it's just like you we don't we don't live in a world where you use, like like, blue lots of different versions of Bluetooth or something. It's just like, eventually, you standardize on the one that works.

保罗，你有没有用过，比如NPUB或Noster？你用过eCache吗？我就是好奇，你对这些东西这么挑剔，真的亲自试过吗？

Have you Paul, have you ever used like, you have a do have an NPUB, a Noster? Have you ever used eCache? Like, you know, I'm just curious. Have you actually tried these things that you're so critical of?

但我不是告诉过你吗，我不仅试过，还在2016年创造了新的闪电技术？

But didn't I actually tell you that I've not only have I tried, but I wrote new Lightning technology into existence in 2016?

不，不，不。我不是说你固守过去，我说的是现在。

No. No. No. I'm not talking about you're stuck in the past here. I'm talking about today.

你到底用过eCache没有？给我看看eCash。你用没用过Cashew，或者Noster？你到底有没有探索过这些？

Have you have you used eCache? Show me an eCash. Have you have you have you used Cashew, or have you used Noster? And have you explored that at all

还是没用过？嗯，我现在不用了，但2022年前确实用过。不过我认为这已经是定论了——它们行不通。

or not? Well, I don't use them anymore, but I have used them, you know, through 2022. But that I don't my view is that it's a settled issue and that they don't work.

Cashew在2022年根本不存在。

Cashew didn't exist in 2022.

但Cashew不就是联邦化的电子现金吗？难道不是？也可能我搞错了。

But Cashew is federated e cash. Is it not? I mean, maybe it's not.

不。那它是什么？不。总之，我们来说点更有趣的事情吧。

No. Then what is it? No. Anyway, let's actually get to something more interesting.

不。不过它到底是什么？好吧。

No. What is it, though? Okay.

这么说吧，等等。等一下。好的。假设我们有这个功能。我们有驱动链。

So let's say hold on. Hold on. Hold Okay. So let's say we have this feature. We have drive chains.

好吧。按你说的办。我们有了。好。链上用户如何支付，或者让我这样解释。

Okay. You get your way. We have it. Okay. How does an on chain user pay or let I'll make it this way.

假设我有驱动链代币。假设它们是PAUL代币。我自己创造的，你知道，我有PAUL代币。对吧？

Let's say I have drive chain tokens. Let's say they're PAUL tokens. I've made my own, you know, I've got PAUL tokens. Right?

这不是比特币吗？还是第二层比特币？或者是别的什么？我没听懂。

Is this not BTC or is this an l 2 Bitcoin or is this something else? I didn't understand.

这些以比特币计价的代币是我作为驱动链创建的。好的。

Them BTC denominated tokens that I've created as a drive chain. Okay.

是的。当你存入L2时，你会得到那边的东西，那会是BTC。类似于闪电网络，它被视为BTC。

Yeah. When you when you deposit to the l two, you get something that over there, it would be BTC. Similar to the Lightning Network where it's like it's it counts as BTC.

对。所以我们称它为保罗BTC而不是Right。

Right. So we'll call it Paul BTC instead of Right.

好的。你叫它保罗BTC。

Okay. You call it Paul BTC.

是的。那么一个刚接触链上比特币的人如何与你互动？比如，如果他们还没有保罗BTC，这怎么运作？

Yeah. So how does someone who's just got on chain Bitcoin interact with you? Like, how do you would that if they don't have Paul BTC, how does this work?

如果我想...如果你是说我想支付给你，或者谁想...如果你想...是的。

If I want if you're saying I wanna pay you or who wants to where if you wanna Yeah.

你持有保罗BTC，想支付给一个不了解你的驱动链的链上用户。对。这怎么实现？

You you've got Paul BTC and you wanna pay an on chain person who doesn't know what your drive chain is. Yeah. How does that work?

链上的不。收款方决定他们想要的方式

The on chain no. The person the recipient decides how they wanna

获得报酬。

be paid.

所以如果他们想要L1代币，我们就必须发送L1代币给他们。

So if they want l 1 coins, we have to send them l 1 coins.

所以你基本上需要通过主链进行提现操作。

So you have to cat you're you basically have to cash out to the main chain in them.

我认为你可以使用HTLC来交换代币，但需要有人接单。我的观点是80亿人不可能都挤在L1上，所以试图为此设计毫无意义。关键是要让用户乐意留在L2，因为这才是可行的解决方案。

Well, I think you can use HTLC to swap to swap them, but you would need to have someone take that bid. But my idea is not that my view is that 8,000,000,000 people can't fit on l 1, so it's pointless to try to design for yeah. What you have to do is design so that people are happy being on l two because that's the only way that it will work anyway.

好吧。我这么问是因为你似乎想通过'只有一半功能可用就不算成功'的说法来否定闪电网络。所以我很好奇——在你设想的未来里，这是否意味着所有人都必须使用互通的侧链？比如PaulBTC能和DannyBTC直接交互而无需上链吗？

Okay. I'm just trying to get at this because you seem to be trying to discredit Lightning by saying that if you have a scenario where, like, only one half of it works, that it's not working. So I'm just curious, like, okay. In your future, does this mean that, like, everybody has to be using like, are the different drive chains interoperable? Like, can Paul BTC work with Danny BTC without having to go on chain?