比特币隐私之战 | 卡勒

克拉肯现在正将其触手伸向我们十五年来构建的系统。是的，我们已经开始感受到这种影响的后果。你需要能够表达自我。我们深知隐私对民主运作的必要性——否则，你不过是个工具罢了。

The the Kraken is now putting its its arms over over the system that we've been building for fifteen years now. And, yeah, we're starting to feel the consequences of that. You need to be able to express yourself. You know, we have understood that privacy is necessary for a democracy to function. Otherwise, you're just a tool.

你并非自由人。只有当切身利益受损时，大众才会开始醒悟。我们依赖少数掌控生活命脉的巨头企业，它们积累的权力已庞大到能轻易被政治操控，进而影响数十亿人。我们并非心怀不轨。

You're not a free human being. The general population will only start to understand things once it start to hurt. We rely on a small number of large corporations that have a lot of control over our lives. They have accumulated so much power, it becomes trivial to control those companies politically and then affect billions of people at this point. We're not trying to do anything bad.

我们纯粹是想让世界变得更好。只要持续朝着正确方向前进，我想...我希望一切都会好起来。

We're literally just trying to improve the world. As long as we just keep moving into the right direction, I think, I think we'll I hope we'll be okay.

比特币正在狂飙突进。每次牛市都会涌入新投资者，随之而来是大量新公司、新产品和新承诺。但老手都明白多数故事的结局：有些偷工减料，有些拿客户资金冒险，有些直接跑路。因此购买比特币时，我只推荐River交易所——他们以安全透明为核心，真正把客户利益放在首位。

Bitcoin is absolutely ripping, and in every bull market, there's always a new wave of investors, and with it, a flood of new companies, new products, and new promises. But if you've been around long enough, you've seen how this story ends for a lot of them. Some cut corners, take risk with your money, or just disappear. That's why when it comes to buying Bitcoin, the only exchange I recommend is River. They deeply care about doing things right for their clients and are built to last with security and transparency at their core.

选择River意味着安心：所有比特币采用多重签名冷存储，是美国唯一提供储备证明的纯比特币交易所。购买比特币没有比这更好的选择。立即访问river.com/wbd开户，购币可获高达100美元比特币奖励。若想同时实现减税和囤币呢？

With River, you have peace of mind knowing all their Bitcoin is held in multisig cold storage, and it's the only Bitcoin only exchange in The US with proof of reserves. There really is no better place to buy Bitcoin. So to open an account today, head over to river.com/wbd and earn up to $100 in Bitcoin when you buy. That's river.com/wbd. What if you could lower your tax bill and stack Bitcoin at the same time?

通过Blockware挖矿即可实现。根据新税法，美国矿工可当年全额抵扣矿机成本——10万美元资本利得？购买10万美元矿机就能完全抵税。

Well, by mining Bitcoin with Blockware, you can. New tax guidelines from the big beautiful bill allow American miners to write off a 100% of the cost of their mining hardware in a single tax year. That's right. A 100% write off. If you have a 100 k in capital gains or income, you can purchase a 100 k of miners and offset it entirely.

Blockware的托管挖矿服务让你即刻开始比特币挖矿，全程无需动手。从矿机安防到低价电力采购，再到矿池配置，他们包办一切。你既能每日折扣囤币，又能在报税季省下大笔开支。立即访问mining.blockwaresolutions.com/wbd，每购买一台托管矿机可享一周免费托管及电力。

Blockware's mining as a service enables you to start mining Bitcoin right now without lifting a finger. Blockware handles everything from securing the miners to sourcing low cost power to configuring the mining pool, they do it all. You get to stack Bitcoin at a discount every single day while also saving big come tax season. Get started today by going to mining.blockwaresolutions.com/wbd. And for every hosted miner purchased, you get one week of free hosting and electricity.

当然，以上内容均不构成税务建议。欲了解更多信息，请访问mining.blockwaresolutions.com/wbd与Blockware咨询。本期节目由行业巨头Iron赞助，这家纳斯达克上市的最大比特币矿企使用100%可再生能源。Iron不仅为比特币网络提供算力，还以可再生能源为支撑，为人工智能领域提供尖端计算资源。我们与创始人Dan和Will合作已久，对其价值观深感钦佩，特别是他们对当地社区和可持续算力的承诺。

Of course, none of this is tax advice. Speak with Blockware to learn more at mining.blockwaresolutions.com/wbd. This episode is brought to you by the massive legends, Iron, the largest Nasdaq listed Bitcoin miner using 100% renewable energy. Iron are not just powering the Bitcoin network, they're also providing cutting edge computing resources for AI all backed by renewable energy. We've been working with our founders, Dan and Will, for quite some time now and have been really impressed with their values, especially their commitment to local communities and sustainable computing power.

因此无论您对比特币挖矿还是AI算力感兴趣，Iron都在树立行业标杆。访问iren.com（即iron.com）了解更多。好了，Cali兄弟，真是好久不见。

So whether you're interested in mining Bitcoin or harnessing AI compute power, Iron is setting the standard. Visit iron.com to learn more, which is iren.com. Alright. Cali, man. It's been too long.

最近怎么样？

How are doing?

Danny，又见面了真高兴。我很好，你呢？

Danny, nice nice to see you again. I'm great, how are you?

我非常好。自从你一年半前来参加《作弊代码》节目后就没见过，你一直很忙啊。但我想首先讨论的是，比特币圈里人人都在说'我们赢了'——比特币价格屡创新高，美国似乎通过了利好法规，每周都有新的加密公司成立。

I'm very good. I've not seen you since you came to cheat code, which was like a year and a half ago and you've been a busy man. But one of the things that I wanted to start with is in Bitcoin, everyone's constantly saying we are winning. Bitcoin's at all time highs. There's like seemingly good regulation being passed through The US, new treasury company every week.

看起来传统金融市场节节败退，但上周有两个重大转折：Samurai钱包开发者Bill和Kyone认罪，面临最高五年监禁（据我所知很可能顶格判罚）；Roman Storm被陪审团定罪；英国又出台了《网络安全法案》。

So it's like taking down the traditional markets, but there's a big but in that last week, the two Samurai devs, Bill and Kyone, pled guilty. They're facing up to five years in prison. From what I've heard, it sounds like they're gonna get the harsher end of that sentence. Roman Storm was found guilty by jury. And now The UK has brought in the Online Safety Act.

这些事态让人感觉我们并非稳操胜券。所以我想听听你的看法，就像做个情绪检测——你对当前形势怎么看？

And all of this seems like we're not winning. So I wanna know your take, just like a vibe check. What do you think of what's happening right now?

我觉得他们正在追上我们。这就是我的感受。从财务角度看，一切都很顺利，对吧？发展轨迹正如人们预测的那样演进：价格上涨，人们因害怕错过而涌入，机构入场等等。

I think they're catching up to us. That's what it feels like. So on a financial side, everything is going great, right? So playbook is evolving just the way that people predicted it. Price goes up, people FOMO in, institutions are coming, etcetera, etcetera.

这是比特币最可预测、甚至可能最乏味的部分，但也是比特币获得全球主导地位的必要环节。我理解这一点。而在自由和隐私方面——在我看来这是前者成功的必要前提——我们过去十五年其实有相当大的运作空间，因为体系尚未真正理解比特币及其用途。但现在他们正在收紧管控，沿用几十年来压制自由技术的旧手段。宏观来看，我认为这只是始于1980年代的压制言论自由进程的延续——无论是信息传递、人际通讯还是加密战争1.0时期，现在又延续到加密货币和比特币领域：这里进行的是无需中介、不受控制、跨越国界的价值交换，完全颠覆网络空间的传统规则。

That's the most predictable, maybe even like the most boring part of Bitcoin, which is still a necessary part for Bitcoin to gain global dominance. I understand that. On the freedom and privacy front, which is kind of a, in my mind, a necessary precondition for the first thing to succeed, it seems like the you know, we've we've had quite some room to work on things for now fifteen years and the system didn't quite understand what Bitcoin is and what we do with it. And now it's closing down and using like old playbook, like oppression against freedom technologies that have been going on for decades. So zooming out, I think, is just a continuation of a process that has already started, if you want, in the '80s, which is to clamp down on the freedom of expression, whether that's messaging, calling people, just communication, Crypto Wars one point zero, and a continuation of that in the crypto space and the Bitcoin space, which is now exchange of value without any intermediaries, without control, without borders, any of the old rules that apply in cyberspace.

如今Kraken正将触角伸向我们苦心经营十五年的体系。是的，我们已经开始感受到这种影响的后果。

And Kraken is now putting its arms over the system that we've been building for fifteen years now. And yeah, we're starting to feel the consequences of that.

在这种形势下，你认为我们比特币玩家的出路是什么？仅仅是开发我们需要的工具吗？

So in the midst of this, what do you think the way out for us as Bitcoiners is? Is it just to build the tools that we need to use?

不，我认为我们需要更积极地与外部世界互动。既要开发工具，也要确保构建出可供使用的平行系统。这是一场建设性运动——因为旧体系无法提供下个世纪所需的工具。但我们的社区存在一个问题：总是陷入内部对话的闭环。

No, I think we need to engage much more with the external world. So, we need to build the tools and we need to make sure that we build parallel systems that we can use. So I think this movement is a constructive movement. We're building a parallel system because the old system is not building the tools that we need for the next century. And so there's a constructive part, but we tend to be a community that talks a lot with itself.

我们总说'比特币正在胜利'，大家反复念叨着同样的陈词滥调：'这对比特币有利'、'比特币是给敌人的'等等。这些循环往复的套话，本质上是划定社区边界的机制。但我们明显缺乏能搭建桥梁、向外界解释我们所作所为及其意义的声音。

We say Bitcoin is winning, and it's like everyone is repeating the same old sentences. This is good for Bitcoin, and Bitcoin is for enemies, and blah blah blah. It's it's the same same things that people just say in in in circles. I think it's a mechanism to ensure what the boundaries of the community is and what's inside and outside. But we are clearly lacking the voices that bridge those gaps and try to communicate to the outside world what we're doing here and why we're doing it.

那么你认为我们需要改变的关键点是什么？

And so what do you think the key things that we need to change are?

我认为这些运动依赖于那些连接内外界的个体代表。加密和比特币领域长期存在一种群体思维，认为只要我们持续建设，就能实现自由。但我们逐渐意识到，我们仍嵌在一个更大的系统中。因此，我们需要找到能以社会理解的方式传达的声音，解释为何要构建比特币系统——这关乎人权、自由、言论自由，关乎超越国界与政治。

I think these movements, they live off individuals that represent the links between the inside and the outside. So there's a group think in the crypto and the Bitcoin space that has lasted for a while now, which is like, as long as we keep building, then we'll reach freedom. But I think we're waking up to the fact that we are still embedded in a larger system. So we need to find the voices that can communicate to society in a way that helps people to understand why we're trying to build Bitcoin systems and why we're This is about human rights, freedom, freedom of expression. It is about transcending nations and transcending politics.

这本质上是数学问题。我们早已习惯这些复杂议题，多年来一直在讨论。但对普通人而言，比特币的关联印象往往是交易、价格波动、恐怖主义融资或逃税——这些被强加的负面标签。我们的职责不仅是从技术层面捍卫比特币，更要传播比负面叙事更强大的正面论述。

It is about mathematics. And these are complex questions that we are very used to. We've been talking about these for years. But talk to a normie and like the association that people have with Bitcoin is trading, the value going up or terrorist financing, tax evasion, all these bad labels that they've put onto Bitcoin. Our job is not only defend Bitcoin in a technological way, but also try to put out the narratives that are stronger than the bad ones.

当前局面是外界在定义比特币。我们该做的是从内部定义比特币并传播这一理念。举例来说，我认为亚历克斯·格拉德斯坦因人权背景，在塑造比特币叙事方面最具影响力——他此前长期从事人权工作，在那个领域已颇具知名度。

So we're in a situation where they determine what Bitcoin is from the outside. And what we should be doing is we determine what Bitcoin is from the inside and spread this message. I wanna give an example. For example, I think Alex Gladstein has been one of the most influential and important people in shaping the narrative around what Bitcoin is because of his background, it comes from human rights perspective. He's been working in that field before he's got quite some People know him from that world.

嗯。

Yeah.

他成功构建了一套完整、有力且道德的比特币叙事：帮助最需要帮助的人群。无论是难民、政治异见者、全球人权组织，还是依赖比特币系统运作的抗议运动——当暴政试图镇压时，比特币成为他们的生命线。

So he's managed to build like a entire narrative, very strong, very good narrative, an ethical narrative around Bitcoin, which is to help the people who need the help the most. So whether that's refugees, political dissent, or human rights groups around the world, protest movements that rely on a system like Bitcoin to operate when a cruel unjust regime tries to crack them down.

亚历克斯的工作之所以杰出，在于其信息具有不可忽视的力量。当主流媒体散播关于挖矿或恐怖融资的谣言时，你无法用同样的话术反驳'阿富汗女性用比特币资助学校'这样的故事。去年'作弊代码'活动（你未能参加的那场）他专设了一小时人权议题，贝德福德独立报的记者现场观摩后撰写了精彩报道。

And Alex has done such an amazing job of that because the message is so powerful And it's also one that you just can't ignore. You can't sit there and pretend all the FUD against Bitcoin, whether it's on mining or whether it's used to finance terrorists or whatever, when that comes from the mainstream media, you can't use the same FUD if you're saying this woman in Afghanistan is using Bitcoin to fund a school. It's such a powerful narrative and he does such a good job. When we did cheat code last year, the one you weren't able to come to, he had an hour slot where it was all human rights. And a guy from the Bedford independent came and was watching the conference and he wrote an amazing piece afterwards.

我会把链接放进节目备注。那篇文章核心是说：亚历克斯·格拉德斯坦通过邀请人权基金会名单上的各色人士进行一小时演讲，彻底改变了人们对比特币的认知。不过我认为隐私需求是最难推销的叙事——最近回英国时和朋友聊到《网络安全法案》树立的危险先例，却无人理解。你觉得为何隐私理念如此难以推广？

I'll put it in the show notes, but it was basically, it was how Alex Gladstein's hour of presentations all from different people across the HRF's kind of roster just changes perception on Bitcoin entirely. And like, I think you're right, but what I think is a really hard narrative to sell people, and I don't know why this is, is the need for privacy. I talking to some friends when I was back in The UK recently, and I was talking to them about the Online Safety Act that came in and how this is a terrible precedent to set and no one gets it. Why do you think privacy is so hard to sell to people?

关于隐私的故事是一个延续数十年的漫长历程。要真正理解这一社会叙事的演变，我认为应该从我们称之为‘加密战争1.0’的阶段开始。之所以称为1.0，是因为现在还存在‘加密战争2.0’。加密战争1.0可以追溯到80年代甚至70年代末，当时以美国为主（但波及全球）的情报机构开始打击加密技术，他们认为不受国家监控的通信——即国家无法拦截阅读的对话——会让犯罪分子有机可乘，比如毒贩、人口贩卖、儿童安全等（这些他们贴上的标签后来都成为监控借口）。他们甚至试图在我们的设备中植入硬件后门，即使端到端加密也能监听你发送的信息。

So the story about privacy is a long one that has been going on for decades at this point. And to really understand how the evolution of this narrative in society evolved, I think it makes sense to start with what we call the Crypto Wars one point zero at this point. And we call it one point zero because there is now Crypto Wars two point zero also going on. So Crypto Wars one point zero is, let's say, in the '80s, even in the late 70s, where intelligence agencies in The US, primarily in The US, but this spread across the globe, started to fight encryption because they thought that talking without the state's ability, you know, communication without the state's ability to intercept and to read what you're talking allows criminals to you know, drug dealers, you know, all this FUD, human trafficking, child safety, and we can come to that later. All these labels that they put on used to justify the fact that they wanted to put literal hardware into our devices that can listen to the messages that you're writing to someone, even with end to end encryption.

所以

So

这之后的演变值得我们深思：经过数十年活动人士的抗争，关于加密通信必要性的叙事已发生重大转变。80年代加密被视为罪犯工具，而到了90年代，叙事开始缓慢转变——不仅是密码学家的努力（虽然他们功不可没），更重要的是让社会意识到：加密不仅是罪犯需求，更是写情书、与家人朋友沟通、维护人性尊严的基本权利。我们已理解隐私是民主运转的基石——若无法自由交流，公民就无法形成明智的政治判断。

what has happened since then is, and this is a remarkable change and evolution that I think we need to learn from, is that decades of work from activists, from people fighting this fight, had shifted the narrative around the need for encryption for communication quite considerably. So while encryption was only for criminals in the '80s, sometime in the nineties and in the February, the story started to shift, but very slowly after decades and decades of fighting from especially activists, not only like cryptographers, and there are like big cryptographers that have fought that fight and were necessary to get to that point, but the narrative needed to shift from the criminals needed to, you needed to write a love letter to someone. You needed to communicate to your family, to your friends, to retain your human dignity. You need to be able to express yourself. We have understood that privacy is necessary for a democracy to function because you cannot be an intelligent, well, informed citizen if you're not able to communicate freely with your citizen, peers, right?

形成政治观点并在民主制度中投票的前提，是能够自由获取和分享信息。我们的民主制度本质上建立在隐私必要性之上。当今所有民主国家的选票都必须是私密的，否则就会面临胁迫投票的风险。

To form a political opinion and to be able to cast a vote in democracy requires you to be able to get that information freely and to share information freely. Our democracy is literally built on the necessity of privacy. In any democratic country today, the ballot is private. It needs to be private. Otherwise, you can be pressured to vote for someone specific.

投票后的隐私同样需要保护，否则可能出现因投票给特定候选人而获得奖励的情况。顺便说，希望大家都记得埃隆·马斯克去年干预美国大选的行为——这种玷污民主程序的做法极其恶劣，因为民主原则本身远比单个选举结果重要得多。这场斗争远未结束。

And after the fact, also that you know, after voting, that also needs to remain private. Otherwise, you can be you know, you can get a bonus or you can be rewarded for for voting for this candidate rather than that candidate. By the way, like, I hope everyone remembers what Elon Musk did with the American elections Yep. Last year, which is, like, terrible way of interfering with a democratic process that needs to remain pure because the process itself, the principle around it is so much more important than the result of each individual vote. So I think, you know, the fight is not over.

老实说加密战争1.0仍在继续。但美国司法部曾一度...抱歉应该说在与司法部的诉讼中，美国最高法院最终裁定：加密是每个公民的权利，人们有权加密自己的通信。

Crypto Wars one point zero is still going on, to be honest. But at some point, the DOJ was decided that No, sorry. I should say the fight against the DOJ, the Supreme Court in The US decided in a case against the DOJ that encryption is everyone's right and you're allowed to encrypt your communication.

于是加密技术从被视同军火管制，最终成为了每个公民的基本权利。

So it went from being treated the same as munitions to being the right of every citizen.

没错。在美国，加密技术的出口曾被视为武器出口般受到管制，如今想来简直荒谬。加密战争最终取得了胜利，随后舆论开始转向，我们看到欧盟议会甚至建议选民和议员们使用Signal，因为俄罗斯在监视。人们逐渐意识到必须依赖这些工具。像TOR这样的项目甚至得到美国机构的资助，因为他们发现这对于其他国家的政治异见者维护自由、进行安全通讯非常有用。

Correct. Yeah. The export of cryptography was treated like exporting weapons in The United States, which is insane if you think about it today. And so the crypto wars was won, and then, you know, narrative started to shift, and we've seen then, you know, the EU parliament then recommending to their constituents, to parliamentarians, like use signal because Russia is watching and people starting to understand that we need to rely on these things. And you have things like TOR being funded by US agencies because they noticed that this can be a quite useful tool for freedom in other countries when you have political descent and they wanna be you know, have secure communication.

这是他们想要推动的方向。通讯隐私权的斗争已取得重大进展。如今多数人至少直觉上明白，NSA正在监控你的输入内容，这种被监视的感觉令人作呕。我有个朋友总让我想起这事——我们在Telegram聊天时他说‘这里没法畅所欲言，换Signal吧’。切换后，当你知道无人监视时，交流方式就恢复了自然状态。

So this is something that they wanna push. So the fight for the fight for privacy in communication has done quite some leaps. And at this point, I think most people understand, like, at least have a sense of intuition that, you know, the NSA is watching what you're typing here, and it's kind of disgusting, the feeling that someone is watching you. And I have a friend I always think about, like we were chatting on Telegram and he told me like, I can't talk freely here, let's use signal. And then we switched over to signal and the way that communication changes once you know that there is no one watching is you become like your normal self.

就像现在这样面对面坐着。

It's like sitting across this table.

正是如此，就像在街上，无论你是谁，都该保持这种状态。正如我强调的，这对民主运作至关重要，否则你只是工具而非自由人。数十年的努力终于让人们本能地厌恶被窥视的感觉。

Yeah, exactly, like on the street, whoever you are, that's how you should be. And as I said, like, I wanna repeat this, this is necessary for democracy to work, right? Otherwise, you're just a tool. You're not a free human being. We understand that, and now decades of work have resulted in this intuition of people feeling that it is a disgusting feeling that someone can read what you're watching.

顺便说，物理空间里我们早有这种直觉。作为智人，我们在物理世界存在了数十万年。我们会拉窗帘、耳语、说话时捂嘴——因为唇语可能被解读。

By the way, in physical space, we have this intuition already. We've been in physical space as humans. We've existed for hundreds of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years as Homo sapiens. We have curtains, we whisper and we hide our mouth when we talk because people can read your lips. Right?

这些行为都是本能反应，尽管我们甚至不明白原因。嗯。

We do this intuitively, although we don't even understand why. Mhmm.

关于唇语解读。人类还有近乎第六感的直觉，当感觉在公共场合被注视时会不安。就像角落里有人盯着你时，那种莫名的不适感会突然袭来。

It's about reading the lips. And you also even have a almost like a sixth sense where it can make you feel uneasy if you think someone's watching you in public. And you, like, I don't know what that is, but if someone stood in the corner and they're looking at you, sometimes you get that intuition of like, you know it and it makes you feel uncomfortable.

确实如此。行为科学领域有大量的心理学研究，比如当有摄像头对着你时，人们的行为模式会如何改变。在物理空间中，我们凭直觉就会拉上窗帘。

Absolutely. There's like, there's loads of psychological research on behavioral science. Like how do people behave when, if there's a camera just pointing towards you and like how your behavior changes. And so in physical space, we have the intuition. We close the curtain.

这不是问题。拉窗帘是基本人权。我们有投票亭——就像在那个小隔间里投下选票一样。在数字空间里，无论是通讯、电话还是聊天，我们正在培养这种直觉。

It's not a problem. It's a human right to close the curtain. We have ballot rooms. Like, you cast a vote in, like, this little thing, the chamber. In digital space, for communication, for phone calls, for chats, we are developing an intuition.

我认为我们仍处于起步阶段，但人们开始理解了。大多数人还不明白。现在谈谈财务隐私。资金往来是最基本的形式——比如我用现金付钱给你。

I think we're still at the beginning there, but people are starting to get it. Most people still don't. Now let's come to financial privacy. Sending money around is like the most basic form of it. I pay you in cash.

比如你请客吃饭，第二天我用现金还你。我们觉得这理所当然。我们曾以为以现金为主的支付系统完全私密，直到现在才可能开始真正理解这意味着什么。

Like you, I don't know, you pay for the dinner, next day I pay you in cash. We take it for granted. We took it for granted that most payment systems, which was physical cash, was perfectly private. And we never really, you know, got the feeling, got to understand what it feels like at this point. We're starting maybe to understand it.

信用卡等支付方式出现较晚。我认为社会至今仍未理解这点。当你提到给朋友转账需要隐私时，人们仍会联想到：只有罪犯才需要隐藏？或是'我没什么可藏的，不过是买个披萨'之类。对吧？

Credit cards and everything came a bit later. So I think society doesn't get it at all yet. When you talk about sending money to your friends even and the need to remain private, then people still associate it with, you know, only criminals would want that or what are you trying to hide? Or, I have nothing to hide, it's just a pizza or something like that. Right?

所以我希望金融隐私能达到即时通讯的认知水平。这种认知终将形成，就像斯诺登揭露NSA监控全网时那样。因为金钱几乎与言论同等重要——事实上美国最高法院已裁定金钱即言论。

So I think, I hope we will also get to a point where we are with messaging in terms of financial privacy. And I think we will have to get there because people will develop that intuition. The same way as when Edward Snowden revealed that the NSA is literally watching everything that is happening on the Internet, I think we will also get to the point with money. And the reason why we will get there is that money is almost as important, you know, if not more important than speech. In fact, here again, the American Supreme Court has ruled that money is speech.

嗯。我可以举例说明为何金钱即言论：比如你有政治立场，想支持某个运动，就会捐款给他们。

Mhmm. And I can make some examples why money is speech. For example, you have a political belief. You wanna support this political movement. You donate to them.

这是言论自由的表达方式。比如，我支持这个政治事业。现在有人可以阻止你这么做，这就是金融审查。或者有人可以直接观察你的银行账户，知道你正在这么做。

This is expression of speech. Like, I support this political cause. Now someone could stop you from doing that. That's financial censorship. Or someone could just observe your bank account from, you know, you're doing that.

然后事后追溯，在你知道的政权——当前政权被下一个政权推翻后，他们可能会说，实际上，我们想追查五年前向那个基金会、那个事业捐款的所有人，对吧？所以我们通过金钱表达言论自由、人类自由或个人自由的方式有很多。我再举一个例子，我们现在在里加。这是一个比特币会议。你的信用卡账单显示你在里加，丹尼现在也在里加。

And then retroactively, after the regime you know, this current regime has been toppled by the next regime, they might say like, actually, we wanna persecute everyone who's donated to that foundation, to that cause five years ago, right? So there are many ways how we express speech or human freedom or personal freedoms through money. I'll make another example is we're in Riga right now. It's a Bitcoin conference. You know, your credit card statement says you're in Riga, and Danny is in Riga right now.

所以他们可以看到，比如，你现在在里加。也许这没什么意思，但他们可能会发现，哦，现在里加有一群比特币爱好者。突然有很多人出现在里加，他们都去了同一个地方。比如，这家咖啡馆现在有很多国际信用卡在那里消费。也许那里正在举行比特币会议。

So they can see, like, you're in Riga right now. Maybe that's not so interesting, but maybe they'll see, like, oh, there's a bunch of Bitcoiners now in Riga. You know, lots of people suddenly appearing in Riga, and they all go to the same place. Like, this coffee shop has, like, a high influx of international credit cards now paying at that cafe. Maybe there is a conference of Bitcoiners there.

对吧？所以金钱还关联着社交图谱。它能显示你的心理治疗师是谁。你可以看到，哦，你在这家诊所做心理治疗，或者你和谁一起去看电影。明白吗？

Right? So there is a social graph as well associated with money. You know, it shows who your therapist is. You can see like, oh, you're you're doing psychotherapy at this place or who you're going to cinema with. You know?

哦，你买了四张票，周围还有这些人。所以我们留下痕迹的方式太多了。不幸的是，你知道，我在意这些事，你也在意这些事。我们多少知道发生了什么。

Oh, you paid, like, for four tickets, and there were, like, these people around you. So so many ways how we leave traces around. And unfortunately, you know, I care about these things. You care about these things. We kind of have an idea of what's happening.

普通大众只有在受到伤害时才会开始理解这些事情。而金钱，我认为金钱带来的伤害可能非常、非常严重。它甚至可能比信息封锁更伤人。比如当他们冻结你的银行账户时，你可能会失去你的家。这对一些人来说听起来不现实。

The general population will only start to understand things once it start to hurt. And with money, I think like with money, it can really hurt really, really bad. It can hurt more than with messaging even. Like when they turn off your bank account, you know, you might lose your home. And sounds unrealistic to people.

有些人会说，哦，我永远不会受到这种影响，但是，祝你好运，对吧？你不知道五年后你的国家会发生什么政治变化，所以最好现在就做好准备。

To some, they say like, oh, I will never be affected by this, but, yeah, good luck, right? You don't know what's going to happen politically in five years in your country, so better be prepared now.

如果你已经自行保管比特币，那么你对硬件钱包的种种问题一定不陌生：复杂的设置、笨拙的界面，以及可能丢失、被盗或遗忘的助记词。而BitKey解决了这一切。这款由Square和Cash App团队打造的多重签名硬件钱包，集成了加密恢复系统和内置继承功能，操作直观简单，再也不用为助记词提心吊胆。

If you're already self custody of Bitcoin, you know the deal with hardware wallets. Complex setups, clumsy interfaces, and a seed phrase that can be lost, stolen, or forgotten. Well, BitKey fixes that. BitKey is a multisig hardware wallet built by the team behind Square and Cash App. It packs a cryptographic recovery system and built in inheritance feature into an intuitive, easy to use wallet with no seed phrase to sweat over.

这是简单无忧的安全自托管方案，因此被《时代》杂志评为2024年最佳发明之一。登录bitkey.world并使用优惠码WBD可享8折优惠。让我夜不能寐的担忧之一就是比特币冷存储可能出现致命错误，这时Anchor Watch就派上用场了。

It's simple, secure self custody without the stress, and time named BitKey one of the best inventions of 2024. Get 20% off at BitKey dot world when you use code w b d. That's bitkey.world and use code w b d. One of the things that keeps me up at night is the idea of a critical error with my Bitcoin cold storage. This is where Anchor Watch comes in.

通过Anchor Watch，你的比特币将获得伦敦劳合社A+评级保险的保障，所有资产都存放在他们的时间锁多重签名金库中。这样你既能享有全额保险的安心，又无需放弃资产控制权。无论你担心继承规划、租赁攻击、自然灾害还是自身操作失误，Anchor Watch都能提供全面保护。全额保险托管费率最低仅0.55%，面向美国个人及企业客户。立即联系Anchor Watch获取报价及安全保障方案详情。

With Anchor Watch, your Bitcoin is insured with your own a plus rated Lloyd's of London insurance policy, and all Bitcoin is held in their time locked multisig vaults. So you have the peace of mind knowing your Bitcoin is fully insured while not giving up custody. So whether you're worried about inheritance planning, rent attacks, natural disasters, or just your own mistakes, you're fully protected by Anchor Watch. Rates for fully insured custody start as low as point 55% and are available for individual and commercial customers located in The US. Speak to Anchor Watch today for a quote and for more details about your security options and coverage.

请访问anchorwatch.com。你是否希望不卖币就能获取现金？Ledden让这成为可能。作为比特币抵押贷款领域的全球领导者，自2018年以来他们已发放超90亿美元贷款，始终保持着客户资产零损失的完美记录。

Visit anchorwatch.com today. That is anchorwatch.com. Do you wish you could access cash without selling your Bitcoin? Well, Ledden makes that possible. Ledden are the global leader in Bitcoin backed lending, and since 2018, they've issued over $9,000,000,000 in loans with a perfect record of protecting client assets.

Ledden提供无需信用检查、无需月供的全托管贷款，让你轻松获取美元而不必出售任何聪（SAT）。自7月1日起，Ledden转为纯比特币业务，所有抵押品均由Ledden或其资金合作伙伴直接持有，你的比特币绝不会被转借生息。我最近刚通过Ledden贷款，全程简便至极：申请不到15分钟，几小时后资金就到账了。

With Ledden, you get full custody loans with no credit checks, no monthly repayments, just easy access to dollars without selling a single SAT. As of July 1, Ledden is Bitcoin only, meaning they exclusively offer Bitcoin backed loans with all collateral held by Ledden directly or their funding partners. Your Bitcoin is never lent out to generate interest. I recently took out a loan with Ledden, and the whole process couldn't have been easier. It took me less than fifteen minutes to go through the application, and in just a few hours, I had the dollars in my account.

体验流畅至极。若需现金又不想卖币，请访问ledn.io/wbd，首笔贷款可享75折优惠。这几乎是最危险的认知误区——『我又没做坏事，何必担心隐私』。

It was super smooth. So if you need cash but you don't wanna sell Bitcoin, head over to ledden.i0/wbd, and you'll get 25% off your first loan. That's ledn. Iowbd. I do think that's almost the most dangerous narrative though, that I'm doing nothing wrong so I don't need to worry about privacy.

我认为这种思维普遍存在，正是我们需要改变的观念之一。但在讨论金融隐私之前，随着《网络安全法案》的出台，我们难道不是在通讯隐私方面开了倒车吗？虽然这是英国的情况，但恐怕会蔓延至更多国家。据我所知，Signal已收到政府要求提供后门访问的通知，当局竟声称这不妨碍端到端加密。

And I think that's a pervasive way of thinking. That is one of the things that we need to change. But with messaging, before we get onto the sort of financial privacy side of things, have we not just taken a huge step back with this Online Safety Act? I mean, I know this in The UK, but I assume this is going to spread to more countries. And with it, I know that Signal have said, well, the government have said to Signal that they want to have backdoor access and they somehow trying to say that they can still be end to end encrypted.

但Signal刚刚表示，如果英国试图强制他们那么做，他们就会离开英国。

But Signal just said they're going to leave The UK if they try and make them do that.

是的。我我赞赏Signal和Signal基金会采取这一立场，我希望一旦那个糟糕的时刻到来，他们真的会这么做。当然，我希望那个时刻永远不会到来，但他们确实应该这么做。我希望英国议员们能体会到Signal不再存在于该国时的感受。但没错，感觉我们正在大步倒退。

Yeah. I I applaud Signal and Signal Foundation for for doing that, and I hope they would they will do that once that terrible point is reached. Obviously, I hope that point will never be reached, but they should they should definitely do it. And I hope the parliamentarians in The UK will feel what it feels like when signal doesn't exist in that country anymore. But, yes, it feels like we're taking a huge step back.

《网络安全法案》目前看来更像是监管公众互联网服务（如Twitter、Reddit等）访问权限的手段。至少目前我们是这样看待的。一旦他们用同样技术手段来强制执行本应点对点、人际互动的通讯软件，我想大多数人会开始质疑——但愿如此——这究竟只是针对犯罪分子的问题还是另有企图。所以没错，《网络安全法案》最近几周变化速度之快确实令人震惊。或许我们该提下法国，类似情况一个月前或更早就发生过，借口也相似，或许可以把两者并列来看。

The Online Safety Act, at this point, it looks more like a way to regulate Internet access to public public Internet services like Twitter, Reddit, and so on. At this point, this is how we see it. Once they enforce messengers that are meant for peer to peer, person to person interaction as well with the same techniques, then I think, like, most people will start may like, hopefully, most people will start to question whether this was this is, like, truly just an issue for the criminals or not. So, yeah, Online Safety Act is it's truly astonishing how fast things have changed in the last couple of weeks. We should say maybe in France, something similar happened one month ago or one month before that when under a similar disguise, maybe we can put those actually side next to each other.

在法国，他们以'色情内容不道德'为由开始监管互联网，要求访问色情网站必须验证信用卡持有者身份对吧？而在英国，说辞变成了'拯救儿童、保护儿童'，声称让孩子自由浏览Reddit论坛或成为X（推特）普通用户非常危险。这些案例连同'加密战争1.0'时期以打击毒贩和人口贩卖为借口的做法——

In France, they started to regulate the internet because of porn because they say porn is not, you know, this is not moral, and you need to verify that you're actually holding a credit card in order to access a porn website, right? So because it's immoral. And then in The UK, the narrative is save the children, protect the children. You know, it's very dangerous if children can read Reddit forum or be just a free user on X and Twitter. So in both of these cases and remembering the Crypto Wars one point zero, where this was about drug dealers and human trafficking.

本质上就是先树立个替罪羊，编造个最能煽动民众的说辞。现在用的是'为了孩子'，其实'为了孩子'这个幌子已经用了很久。但感觉根本没人真正关心孩子，完全不像是在设法帮助儿童。

It's basically, there's a scapegoat, there's some kind of a narrative that people come up with that strikes the courts of the population the most. Currently, it's about the children. It's always been about the children for a while, actually. And it also feels like literally no one cares about the children. It really doesn't feel like they're trying to help the children at all.

甚至可以说恰恰相反。过去几周我们看到，令人震惊的大量互联网平台因英国《网络安全法案》实施了年龄验证。这意味着如果你的IP地址显示在英国，访问Reddit、推特乃至Spotify等平台时，某些被'某人'认定为不适合儿童的内容将不可见或不可听——连Spotify都如此。

You might even say the opposite. So right now, we've seen in the last couple of weeks that a surprising, shocking number of internet platforms have introduced age verification due to the Online Safety Act in The UK. So that means if you're an online user, your IP address is from The United Kingdom, then you go to Reddit or to Twitter and many other platforms, and you will Even Spotify. Even Spotify. You won't see or hear certain types of content that was deemed to be not okay for children by someone.

这个'某人'可能是会出错的自动化算法，也可能是该国某个'真理部'直接拍板决定什么能看什么不能看。要知道这已经不仅涉及色情或屏蔽裸体内容了。我们已经看到错误开始显现——最近我就看到个帖子（虽然我不精通英国政治），是关于某些英国政客宣布脱离柯斯顿·索默斯联盟另立新党的声明被屏蔽的例子。

That someone could be an automated algorithm that makes mistakes, that it also could be just, you know, a ministry of truth in that country that presses the button like this is okay and this is not okay. And, you know, this is not this is not about porn or hiding, like, nudity or anything. Rather, what we've seen like, there are already mistakes that are showing up. I've recently seen a post by you know, I'm not an expert in UK politics, but, like, we're there was, like, a post by by some politicians in The UK where they said, like, were they making a new party and they're leaving, like, Kirsten Somers coalition or something like that. And they're like, hey.

我很兴奋能开始，你知道，加入这个新党派之类的。但这一切都被同一个《网络安全法》给拦住了。它已经影响到纯粹的政治言论了。内容本身没问题，就是被某种机制给屏蔽了。

I'm excited to to start, you know, to join this new party or something like that. And that was blocked by the same Online Safety Act. So it has already affected just pure political speech. Nothing bad about it. It's just like it was blocked by whatever mechanism that happened.

这种事情居然能发生真是太糟糕了。如果继续这样下去，我们会看到越来越多互联网变成KYC地狱——你必须先验明正身才能参与。现在我得说，《网络安全法》这名字本身就是心理战术。

It's it's terrible that this could even happen. And and if this just keeps continuing, we'll see, like, more and more of the Internet becoming a KYC hell where you'll have to identify yourself to participate. Now, I need to say this. It's called Online Safety Act. First of all, this is like this is psyops.

说这个词让我很不舒服，就像说USAID其实是援助机构一样。《网络安全法》把整个问题包装成提升安全性的举措，实际可能适得其反。也许有些你急需的信息，就因为有人按下审查按钮被屏蔽了。我认为最终目的是设立一个所有人都必须通过的KYC验证门。

Like, saying that word, I feel bad saying that because it's it's like saying USAID, you know, it's AID. And this is like Online Safety Act portrays this whole problem as if it's increasing safety somehow. And it could be the opposite. Like maybe there's information that you really need to get, but it's blocked by the Online Safety Act because someone has pressed the sensor button. So I think the end goal is to introduce a KYC door through which everyone needs to go in order to access the internet.

因为这一切都回到故事起点——互联网是人类历史上最伟大的创新，是我们最需要保护的东西。我们才刚起步，就像图表刚开始上升，人类文明还有几千年要走对吧？

Because, you know, this all ties back to the beginning of the story, is the internet is the biggest innovation in human history. It is the most important thing that we need to protect. We're just at the beginning. Like, you know, the graph is just like starting here, and we have hopefully thousands more years to go as as humans. Right?

所有事物都将数字化在线化，这很明显。就连老古董们都明白了。他们正意识到自己在失控——人们互相交流、传播政府信息、泄露内幕、追究责任。

Everything will be online and digital. That's clear. Everyone, like, even the boomers got that at this point. And they're noticing that they're losing control. You know, people are talking to each other, spreading, you know, information about their governments, leaking information, and, you know, holding people accountable.

虽然有假新闻和错误信息，但人们也在讨论不该讨论的事。政治体系正逐渐丧失对民众言行思想的控制，而随着数字化程度加深，这种失控每天都在加剧。所以他们现在试图设个门禁，要你刷信用卡才能进入。

There's, like, misinformation and fake news going on. They're talking about things that they shouldn't be talking about. You know? So the the political system is losing control about what people say and think and do, and more and more, it it becomes stronger and stronger with every day because everything gets more digitized and more online. So now they're trying to put a door there where you need to go and you need to swipe your credit card before you can get into that door.

这根本不是互联网的设计初衷。我们必须全力保护网络自由，帮助人们绕过这些工具。听说现在英国政客连VPN都要封禁，还美其名曰为了儿童利益。

And that's not how the internet was designed in the first place. So we need to put all our efforts into protecting that and hopefully helping people to circumvent these tools. I hear now that politicians in The UK are flooding even VPN use. For They the good of the children,

请不要使用VPN。但我确实认为这是《网络安全法案》实施以来最有趣的现象之一。英国的VPN使用量疯狂飙升，登顶各大应用商店榜首。我在想，是不是只有当情况糟糕到一定程度，人们才能看透表象并推动变革。

please don't use a VPN. But I do think that's one of the most interesting things that came out of this from the day that this Online Safety Act was put in place. VPN usage went up like crazy in The UK. It was the top of all the app stores. And I just wonder if it's one of those things where things have to get bad enough for them to kind of For people to see kind of behind the veil and make change.

这是个很好的问题。但我对此并不乐观。我们刚才简单讨论过，现在掌权的是婴儿潮一代的老人，大概50多岁。

Well, very good question. And I don't know if I'm optimistic about it. So we've just briefly talked about this. We're governed by boomers, old people. They are, let's say like 50.

他们不知道互联网可以是什么样子。大多数人都不懂，他们就像...你知道的，停留在iPhone使用层面。是的，他们从未用电脑做过什么有趣的事。

They don't know what the Internet can be. Most of them don't know. They're like the the you know, they're they're at the iPhone level. Like Yeah. They've never, you know, done anything interesting with their computers.

大多数人如此。当然不是指所有人。有些年长者就是无法理解，现在想教育他们也来不及了。不过确实也有许多元老级人物，那些很酷、年长且重要的人也在参与这场斗争。我只是实话实说。

Most of them. I'm not saying like everyone. So there is an older population that just doesn't get it, and it's too late to tell them. And again, like there are many OGs and very, very cool, very old, super important old people that also help and fight this fight. I'm just saying how it is.

我认为你很难让这部分人真正理解未来互联网对人类的意义。他们固守着20个电视频道，信息都要经过'真理部'过滤。我从不说出格的话，也从不做出格的事。常有人说'我没什么可隐藏的'。

And I don't think that you can, you know, you can really educate that part of the population about what the Internet will be for the rest of humanity going forward. They're kind of stuck in this. You know, you have 20 channels on on your TV and information is filtered through this this the ministry of truth. And and I never say anything edgy, I never did anything edgy. Often people will say, I have nothing to hide.

我又没做错什么。而光谱另一端是Z世代年轻人，他们根本不知道互联网自由是什么感觉。现在16岁、18岁、14岁的孩子，他们成长的环境里互联网已经必须通过那道门禁了。所以他们对互联网的可能性一无所知。只有少数千禧年前后出生的人，经历过西部荒野般的互联网时代。

I've done nothing wrong. On the other spectrum, you have the younger generation, let's call them Gen Z, that really don't know what it felt like to be free on the internet. You have like people with now sixteen years old, 18 years old, 14 years old, they're growing up now and they're growing up in a world where the internet already has to go through that door, where they need to go through that door. So they don't know what it could be. There's a thin sliver of a population of, let's call them, like, plus minus millennials that are that grew up with an Internet that was like Wild West.

嗯。完全自由。无需身份验证，就是...

Mhmm. Complete freedom. No identities, just

是啊。

the Yeah.

无需登录。你知道的，就是IRC聊天室，匿名用户。你只谈论兴趣而不展示自己。重点不是'看看我'，而是'看看这个有趣的东西'。嗯。

No logins. You know, just IRC chat rooms, anonymous people. You just talk about your interests and you don't present yourself. It's not about like, look at me, but it's look at this interesting thing. Mhmm.

一切皆有可能，文件共享、信息分享、维基解密的时代。我们将彻底改变地球的运作方式，因为我们终于能够自由交流。人类将共同成长，因为我们有了这张神经网络般的互联网，这张全球神经网络将我们联结在一起。那个时代的理想主义只影响了少数人，至今仍存，这些人是最在乎的群体。

And anything goes, file sharing, sharing of information, the age of WikiLeaks. You know, we're going to revolutionize the way that the planet works because we can now finally communicate. We're going to grow together as humanity because now we have this internet that is like this web of neural web, the global neural web that is going to put us together. There's like this idealism from that time affected only a small part of the population that is still around today, and those are the people that care the most.

你认为社交媒体的诞生是否意味着自由开放互联网的终结？

Do you think the birth of social media was like the death of the free and open Internet?

这是个好问题。对于社交媒体出现前就上网的人来说，我记得很清楚，社交媒体诞生的标志就是头像开始出现，人们把真实照片和全名放到网上。

That's a good question. So the birth of social media, for anyone who has been around before social media remembers this very vividly, I'm pretty sure, is when when profile pictures started to pop up, when people put their faces online and then put their first name and last name there.

不管他们是否...但是

Whether they were But

其他人都惊呆了：'搞什么鬼？为什么要向所有人暴露身份？这明明只是...'然后人们开始上传度假照片，毫无顾忌地倾倒一切，完全没考虑后果。有意思的是，现在人们已经不再这样做了。

everyone else was like, what the hell? Like, why would you say who you are to everyone? This is just you know? And then people started to put their their vacation photos online and just dump everything without thinking twice about the consequences of that. I mean, you know, there's also an interesting development there that people don't do that anymore.

人们开始意识到过度分享不仅愚蠢，还可能带来麻烦，因此会有选择性地分享内容。但社交媒体的兴起是不可避免的，毕竟普通大众终将加入，互联网理应属于所有人，自然会被普及化。

The people starting to understand that it's kind of idiotic to just overshare and could get you in trouble to overshare. So you're kind of selectively sharing what's good or not. But yeah, the rise of social media was inevitable in the sense that the Normies needed to join at some point, right? The internet should be in the hands of everyone. So of course, it's going to get normalized.

但或许无法预见的是，社交媒体平台将主宰互联网，成为人类历史上最庞大、利润最丰厚的企业，掌控甚至对抗网络标准，筑起信息孤岛，让许多人误以为那就是互联网的全部。在某些国家，人们以为互联网就是脸书——他们只能免费使用脸书，访问其他内容却需付费，这违背了网络中立性原则（所有数据本应平等传输）。社交媒体确实让我们过度依赖少数掌控生活的科技巨头。

But what couldn't have been predicted maybe is that the social media platforms are going to dominate the internet and going to be the biggest companies in human history or be extremely profitable and control web standards, fight web standards, and build these silos that people think that that's the internet. There are many countries out there where people think that the internet is Facebook. That's all they have. And where you get free data if you wanna access Facebook, but everything else is paid, which is also against net neutrality principles where everything should be treated the same because bits and bytes are just bits and bytes, right? So I think, yes, social media definitely put us into a place where we rely on a small number of large corporations that have a lot of control over our lives.

正因如此，推广像Noser这样的去中心化社交系统至关重要——我们在尝试建立不受单一公司控制的社会关系网络。将所有社交生活交由少数企业掌控风险太大。这些公司已积累巨大权力，当《网络安全法》等严苛法规出台时，政客便能轻易通过控制这些公司来影响数十亿人——这正是我们目睹的现实。

That's why it's so important to advocate for systems like Noser, where we're trying to bootstrap social connections outside of the control of individual companies. And that is just because there is too much risk to put all your communication, all your social online life into the hands of a single company or a small number of companies. And yeah, so they have accumulated so much power that at the end of the day, once the draconian laws come into play, the Online Safety Act, it becomes trivial to control those companies politically and then affect billions of people at this point, which we're seeing now.

我想转向财务隐私的话题。两年前我们首次报道过Cashew的项目，当时还处于雏形阶段，如今已大有不同。能否先谈谈eCache是什么？以及Cashew目前在构建什么？

So I want to move on to the financial privacy side of it. We did a first show on what you're building at Cashew, I think it was about two years ago now. So a lot's changed and it was really in its infancy then compared to where it is today. Do you want to start by talking about what eCache is and what you're building at Cashew?

好的。先从历史背景说起：我们正在开发的系统叫Chaumian eCache，得名于其发明者David Chaum。这位密码学先驱为现代隐私通信奠定基础，研究隐私投票系统，更是数字现金概念的创始人。

Yes. So let's start with a bit of history. So this system that we're working on is called Chaumian eCache, and Chaumian eCache is named after the inventor of this, David Chaum. And David Chaum is one of the OG cryptography professors who's done so much for the fact, you know, that we have private communications today, and he's working on private voting. And he also invented the concept of digital cash.

1982年David Chaum在开创性论文中提出基于盲签名的eCash（电子现金），首次描述如何创建具备实体现金匿名特性的数字货币。可惜他的理念超前于时代——当时互联网尚未普及。

So eCash was invented in a famous paper with blind signatures in 1982 by David Cholm, where he described for the first time how to make a digital money that works online but is untraceable. So it has the same properties as physical cash but digital. So e cash, electronic cash. And the the he was way too early for the world. No one was online yet.

互联网的全面普及还需要大约十五年时间

The Internet still takes like fifteen years to propagate through to

那时候人们也不像现在这样在互联网上花钱吗？

And even then people weren't spending money on the internet like they are today?

不不不，那时候互联网上根本没有可以花钱的网站。但他非常有远见，极其有远见。

No. No. No. There were no websites to spend money on the internet on. But he he was extremely visionary, extremely visionary.

而且他还以‘隐私是自由社会的必需品’这类言论闻名。他在八十年代就预见到了我们今天生活的世界。嗯。他知道一切终将数字化，一切都会与互联网相连，所以我们需要找到一种方法让互联网上的隐私交易成为可能。否则互联网就无法运作，因为你不可能为使用的每一项服务都注册账号。

And he's also, you know, he's famous for saying things like that privacy is a necessity for a free society. So he was he knew in the eighties that we're gonna live in the world that we live today. Mhmm. He knew that everything will be digital at some point and everything will touch the Internet, so we need to work on a way to make private transactions possible on the Internet. Otherwise, the Internet cannot work because you're not going to register for every single service that you're going to use.

对吧？所以这还挺有意思的，你明白吗？

Right? So that's kind of funny that, you know?

是的，确实如此。是的，确实如此。

Yes, we are. Yes, we are.

于是他提出了这个名为‘乔姆尼现金’的概念，比比特币早了三十年。他引发了一场研究革命，成千上万的研究者在他的发明基础上不断改进。顺便说，这就是数字现金的探索起源。从他开始，人们几十年来一直在完善这个系统，因为他的构想有个重大缺陷——需要银行系统才能运作。简单来说就是：你去银行（比如大通账户），想象你从ATM取出实体现金对吧？

So he came up with this idea and it's called Chomney Cash, and it was thirty years before Bitcoin. And he started a research revolution in which thousands and thousands of researchers after his invention tried to improve on it. And that's the quest for digital cash, by the way. So it starts with him, and people have been working for decades for how to improve the system because there was one big flaw in his idea, which is you need the banking system in order to make it work. So his idea was, so I'll briefly explain what it is, is you go to a bank, your bank Chase account, and imagine you go to an ATM and you withdraw physical cash, right?

系统从银行账户扣款，你拿到实体现金后就能消费。而电子现金的操作是：登录银行账户点击按钮，下载存储在你设备上的电子现金，然后在互联网上消费。接收方拿到电子现金后，可以找银行兑换回账户金额——‘看，这是电子现金，能存回我的银行账户吗？’

So it subtracts from a bank account, you get physical cash, and then you go around and spend it. Instead of doing that with a physical cash, you do it with electronic cash. You log into your bank account, you press a button, you download eCash that's stored on your device, and then you walk around the Internet and you you spend it. And then the receiver gets the e cash, and then they can go back to the bank and then say, like, look, here's e cash. Can I have it back on my bank account?

原来他是这样设想的。

So that's how he envisioned it.

也许天真的部分在于认为银行会放弃那种金融监控。

So maybe the naive part of that was thinking that banks would give up that kind of financial surveillance.

有趣的是，当时世界大不相同。银行非常喜欢这个创意，那是当时最具革命性的金融科技，所有人都想分一杯羹。

Well, interestingly, the world was different back then. So the banks loved this idea. This was the most revolutionary financial technology on the block back then. And literally everyone wanted a piece of it.

它甚至差点被集成进Windows 95系统？

Wasn't it even in Windows '95?

他们几乎就要把它放进去了。这段历史相当疯狂——大银行们都想要这个技术，直呼'这太疯狂了，我们必须拿下'。

They were very close to putting it into there. They had like the history of it is crazy. So you had like the big banks, They wanted this. Like, said, like, this is crazy. We want this.

一切即将在线化，让我们把电子现金系统整合进来。Digicash公司（David Chom创立）已经进行了相关谈判，连微软都认为这是笔大买卖，考虑将其作为标配钱包集成到Windows 95或98系统中。

Everything is going to be online. Let's put eCash into our systems. So there were already Digicash is the company by David Chom that had these talks. And then even Microsoft that might have been one of the biggest potential deals was said that, like, this is this is great. Let's put this into Windows '90 five, maybe '98.

具体细节我记不清了。但你会问为什么没成功？回顾起来主要是商业原因：David Schomm犯了些错误，谈判很糟糕，他答应后又改条款等等。

I don't quite remember. Let's put it, like, as a standard default wallet into every installation. And well, you would ask, like, why didn't it happen? And the reasons for that is kind of like business related when you look back. It's like David Schomm did some mistakes and the negotiations were really bad and he changed the terms after saying yes and so on, blah, blah, blah, blah.

然而这一切都未曾发生。这些大型银行，包括瑞士信贷、万事达卡、美国银行等众多巨头，我们曾表示需要这样的变革。整个九十年代中期，人们都在期待它的到来，但最终什么也没发生。

And none of this happened. So all these big banks, this Credit Suisse, you had Mastercard, and you had Bank of America and big, big, big banks, we said, like, we want this. And then everyone was awaiting it to happen. This is mid nineties, beginning nineties. And then nothing happened.

它们中没有一个真正落实了这项技术。随后是一片沉寂。直到95、96、98年，信用卡开始普及，PayPal等支付工具涌现。但这些后续系统完全背离了初衷——它们彻底抛弃了隐私保护的概念，最终占领了互联网。

None of them really implemented this. And then there's silence. And then '95, '96, '98, we had credit cards. We get things like PayPal pop up. And those kind of completely different like, there's no notion of privacy in the systems that came after it and then conquered the Internet.

但比起商业角度，我认为更值得关注的是由此引发的研究思潮。98年当你们开始这项工作时，密码朋克运动兴起，他们意识到：'这太不可思议了，互联网需要数字货币。既然现在有了隐私保护方案，接下来就该实现去中心化。'

But I think what's more interesting than the business perspective here is the research perspective that this that this caused. So in '98, when you started working on this, people started like, the cypherpunks are getting started, and they they noticed that this is this is amazing. We need digital money for the Internet. This is privacy preserving. Now let's make it decentralized.

接着我们要解决的是对银行的信任依赖问题。随后二十五年间，所有研究都围绕改进电子现金展开——试图消除信任环节并优化各项属性。你会看到大量相关论文持续发表。

Now let's let's take away the trust part that that we still require towards the banks. And then there is like twenty five years of research. And what they're all trying is kind of like improve e cash, try to like get rid of the trust here and improve the properties there. And like and you see all these papers coming out.

比如那些充满想象力的概念，像b-money之类的。

These, like, wide eyes, b money, and things like that.

没错。这些研究都建立在David Chaum开创的理论基础上，直到2009年2月中本聪发布白皮书和初始代码，最终给出了电子现金问题的解决方案——一种可持续、可运作、无需第三方中介的点对点电子现金体系，正如比特币白皮书标题所述。我们终于能在不依赖银行的情况下进行电子现金交易。他的创新在于：首先实现了去中心化机制，其设计思路与他去中心化的方法论一脉相承。

Yes. So they all built on this whole story that starts with with David Chang Mhmm. Until Satoshi Nakamoto 02/2009, where he released released the white paper, the first code, and with the finally a solution to the electronic cash problem, which is finally a way that is that is sustainable, that works, that doesn't require any third parties or intermediaries where we can transact with electronic cash, a peer to peer electronic cash, the title of the Bitcoin white paper, is where we can transact with electronic cash without the need for the banks. And the way that he did it is, first of all, he decentralized it, so he came up with a way to decentralize it. He came up with a way to with a similar way to how he decentralized.

他还成功设定了发行上限——2100万枚比特币，并通过物理能源背书来抵御外部攻击，这简直太精妙了。这场持续数十年的探索终于在此刻画上句点。如今的我们，已与最初的TOM和ECASH有着本质区别。

He also managed to, you know, to limit the issuance of it, 21,000,000 Bitcoin. And back it with physical energies to protect it from the outside, right? So fantastic. And that's kind of the conclusion of this quest, which was finally found. And so at this point, we're very different from original TOM and ECASH.

没有银行参与，也没有共享的代币之类。这是一个区块链系统，正是它发明了区块链的概念。你可以想象在物理以太中存在着这种区块链事物，当你想付款时，只需说‘嘿，区块链，我要给丹尼转账’，然后这里发生一些操作，款项就会出现在你那边。

There is no bank involved, but there is also no tokens that you share and so on. This is a blockchain system. That's invented the idea of blockchains. You can imagine this in the physical In the ether, there is some kind of this blockchain thing, and then when you want to make a payment, you would just say, hey, blockchain, I want to send money to Danny. And then something happens here, and then it pops up on your side.

于是我们开始研究比特币，而比特币正是一场革命。

So then we started looking into Bitcoin and Bitcoin was this revolution.

但比特币的重大妥协在于它本质上并不具备隐私性。

But the big trade off with Bitcoin is that it isn't inherently private.

没错，这是比特币的妥协之一——它天生不具隐私性，不过公平地说，后来出现的一些山寨币也找到了增强隐私的方法，当然它们也接受了我们不愿在比特币中做出的其他妥协。

Yes, that's one of the trade offs of Bitcoin is it's not inherently private, although, you know, to be fair, some some of the altcoins that came after also found ways to make it more private, also accepting other trade offs, right, that we don't want to accept in Bitcoin.

可审计性与

The auditability and

尤其是可审计性对吧？所以在隐私性和可审计性之间存在权衡。比特币完全倾向可审计性，牺牲了隐私性——这意味着所有交易都能在区块链上追溯，但你不需要银行账户，你就像个随机数字。

Especially the auditability. Right? So there's a there's a trade off between privacy and auditability. And Bitcoin went full on auditability, no privacy, in that sense that all the transactions can be traced in the blockchain, but you don't need an account with the bank. So you're just like a random number.

对吧？你不需要身份证，不需要和任何人沟通。只要启动比特币节点，你就立即成为系统的一部分，并且通过运行节点让系统更强大。这实在太神奇了。

Right? So you don't need an ID. You don't need to talk to anyone. You just start your Bitcoin node, and you're immediately part of the system, and you're making it stronger by starting your Bitcoin node. So it's an amazing thing.

它引发了一场彻底的革命。因此一个权衡是隐私性，另一个是速度。比特币在设计上就是缓慢的，这种缓慢是为了保持其去中心化和易于验证的特性。所以这里又有一个权衡：超高速系统与参与人数之间的关系。超高速系统需要非常庞大的服务器，这样比特币节点就不再是你可以在卧室里用100美元机器运行、保护比特币系统的那种了。而像Solana那样彻底放弃治疗的做法，等于是说我们不在乎去中心化。

It started a whole revolution. And so that's one trade off is the privacy, and the other one is speed. So Bitcoin is slow by design, and it is slow because we want to keep it decentralized and easy to verify So there is, again, another trade off is a super fast system and how many people can participate. A super fast system requires very big servers, so then your Bitcoin node is not like this like a $100 machine that you can run-in your in your bedroom that protects the Bitcoin system. Whereas, like, when you go full retards like Solana, it's like, we don't care about decentralization.

比如现在只有三个节点。速度超快，但只有区区三个节点由一家公司控制。我不知道具体是谁，反正就一小撮人，没人能复制或重现这个系统——而他们正想要这样。随便吧。

Like, we're just There's three nodes. Super fast, but there's only, like, three nodes controlled by a single company. Like, I don't know. But but, like, a handful of people, and no one can reproduce it or replicate the system, and, like, they want that. Like, whatever.

玩得开心就好。所以它既不真正私密，也不真正快速。这些都是中本聪深思熟虑后做出的必要抉择，正是这些决定让比特币得以成功。好吧。

Like, have fun. So it's not really private and it's not really fast. And those are very conscious decisions that are necessary to make Bitcoin successful. That Satoshi chose very consciously. So, okay.

2008年问世后，经过比特币的十年、十五年发展，我们正在构建闪电网络，尝试扩展等等。但早在比特币历史的初期，2010年左右，就有人开始思考：既然有了这个平行金融系统，能否在其基础上实现David Chaum的理念？最初我们不得不在银行体系上构建，还要面对银行拒绝交易导致计划流产的问题。现在这些都不存在了——我们拥有一个无法被阻止的系统。

'eighty two, 2008, and then ten years of Bitcoin, fifteen years of Bitcoin, we're building the Lightning Network, we're trying to scale it and so on and so forth. But very early in the history of Bitcoin, already 2010, I think, there were already people theorizing about now that we have a parallel financial system, can't we implement the ideas of David Chaum on top of that parallel financial system, top of Bitcoin, right? So in the beginning, we needed to build this on the banks and all the problems with making deals and the bank says no, and then it doesn't happen. Let's scratch all that. We have a system that cannot be stopped.

让我们在此基础上建立迷人的电子现金银行吧。就连比特币首位贡献者哈尔·芬尼——顺便说，他是第一个对中本聪持积极态度的人（其他人都说行不通）——也早在最初就提议可以在比特币上建立Chaum式银行。他预见到了如今的比特币世界愿景，虽然当时还没有现在这些扩容思路。十五年后，比特币生态中终于出现了几个实践这个理念的项目，其中两个就是Fetimint和Cashew。

Let's build a charming e cash banks on top of that. And Hal Finney himself, the first Bitcoin contributor, the first person who was positive towards Satoshi Nakamoto, by the way, everyone else said it's not gonna work, and he was the first one that said, like, amazing. He came he even proposed this very early on that we could build like Chomian banks on top of Bitcoin, right? So, and then he saw like the vision of his Bitcoin world before, you know, we have now also other ways of thinking about scaling that weren't present back then, but he already envisioned that. So fifteen years later, then a couple of projects in Bitcoin started to pop up that actually wanted to implement this idea, and I want know that two of them are Fetimint and Cashew.

我从事Cashew开发。这是个迷人的电子现金系统，让你能在比特币基础上建立社区银行，无需向任何人申请。只需接入电脑，底层是比特币协议，运行上层软件后就能发行由用户存入比特币背书的电子现金代币。

I work on Cashew. It's a Charming eCash system. So what this allows you to do is to basically build a community bank on top of Bitcoin without having to ask anyone to do it. You just plug it into your computer. The Bitcoin protocol is underneath it, and you can run the software on top and then issue e cash tokens that are backed by the Bitcoin that people can deposit or not.

这实际上用比特币完全替代了传统银行账户体系，然后向用户发行数字电子现金。比如现在用户就能在互联网上进行线上交易。当前阶段，它主要带来两大优势：一是极大提升了托管解决方案的隐私性（当然这仍是基于信任的系统，仍需信任电子现金发行方不会滥发）。

So replace the entire bank account thing with Bitcoin and then issue digital e cash to the users. They can now trade online on the internet, for example. And so what this gives us today, de facto, is mainly two things is one is that it greatly increases the privacy of custodial solutions right now. So this is a trust based system still. You still need to trust the issuer of the e cash that they don't debase the e cash.

但接受这一点能让该系统的隐私性提升许多倍，几乎达到完美隐私。电子现金在隐私保护方面是公认的行业标杆。这背后有许多密码学原理支撑，你可以想象现在我持有电子现金代币，就像数字钱包里的现金。要付款给你时，我不需要调用比特币区块链询问转账，而是直接从手机里取出来递给你。

But accepting that allows you to increase the privacy of that system many, many folds. So it's like almost perfect privacy. E cash is known to be the best in class in terms of privacy. And the reason for that is many cryptographic reasons as well, but you can imagine the fact that I have now a bear eCash token that is like cash in my digital wallet, And to pay you, I don't have to now call the Bitcoin blockchain and say, hey, Bitcoin blockchain, can you, like, send any money? I can just take it out from my phone and just hand it over to you.

比如你可以用二维码扫描，我们也能碰一碰支付。资金直接从我对等流转给你，甚至无需真正经过互联网。

Like, you can scan it with a QR code. We can do tap to pay or something like that. So the money flows peer to peer from me to you and doesn't even really touch the internet.

用这个还能进行离线支付。

And you can do offline payments with this.

单方可以离线。完整流程是接收方需要向铸币机构重新发行一次代币。我们称这个发行方为铸币厂。你必须重新发行一次代币，否则我可能对其他人进行双花支付。

One side can be offline. So to complete the entire flow is you need to The receiver needs to reissue the token once with the mint. We call this object, the issuer, we call it the mint. You need to reissue the token once. Otherwise, I could double spend it with someone else.

这非常酷，首先交易本身不需要互联网。支付行为只在我们两人之间发生。验证和重新发行需要联网，这样我就无法双花刚给你的代币。但我们也可以角色互换——你作为接收方离线，我作为发送方在线。

So this is super cool because, first of all, the transaction is kind of it doesn't require the Internet. The payment itself happens only between the two of us. You need Internet to verify and then reissue, so I cannot double spend the coin that I just gave you. But we can also reverse reverse the roles. You could be offline as a receiver and I could be online as the sender.

我能做的是锁定电子现金代币，构造出只有你能使用的代币。你可以查看并确认这是专属你的代币。这过程你无需在线。因此通过电子现金，我们能构建一个允许其中一方离线的交易系统，且确保不会发生双花。

And what I can do is I can lock the e cash token so I can construct the token so that only you can spend it. So you can look at it and say, like, this is a token that only I can spend. You don't need to be online for that. So with eCash, we can build a system where one of the two parties can be offline and we can still make a transaction work. Make it work means not double spend the token.

是的。这特别适合商户场景：假设商户在线，他们的销售终端连接着网络。而我作为顾客可以使用比特币支持的电子现金钱包，碰一下就完成支付，资金瞬间从手机转入POS系统。

Yeah. And this is like very common for for a merchant situation where you have a merchant. The merchant is, for example, online is online. They have a payment terminal point of sale that's connected to the Internet. And then I, as a customer, can come with my e cash wallet that is backed by Bitcoin, and I can just do tap, and it goes instantly goes from my phone into the POS system.

POS终端联网后可以显示‘已验证’，一切就绪。作为付款方，我可以离线操作。这为付款方提供了极佳的隐私保护和即时确认。

The POS has Internet and can say, like, this is verified. Everything is done. So I can be offline as a payer. It gives me amazing privacy for the payer and instant confirmation.

我认为人们对eCash最大的误解在于它有一个中央发行方，因此你并不能完全掌控自己的资金。不过或许你可以解释如何利用这一点来尽可能减少问题。另外上次我们聊的时候，像多重铸币支付这样的功能还不存在，所以也许你可以详细说说这方面。

So I think one of the things that's probably most misunderstood about eCash is the fact that there is a central issuer, so you're not in total control of your own funds. But maybe you can explain how you should use that to make that as little of an issue as possible. And then also last time we spoke, these things like multi nut payments weren't a thing. So maybe you can go through some of that.

是的，我们确实开发了很多功能。关键在于你要明白：这不是一个所有人都必须信任的单一大型铸币机构，我们不需要把比特币交给某个铸币方然后指望获得的电子现金真有背书。不，这完全是个开源系统，你可以直接下载代码自己运行。

Yeah. So yeah, we've built quite a lot. So the way you have to think about this is that, you know, there is not a single mint, the big mint that everyone uses, and we all need to trust that one mint with the Bitcoin that we give, and then hope that the e cash that we get is actually backed. No. It's like a completely open source system, and it's just code that you can download and run yourself.

你可以为本地比特币爱好者小圈子（比如20人）运行这个系统。如果有人愿意，可以为社区运营铸币服务。现在的情况是，比如某个村庄或线下比特币聚会群体里会有一个技术达人，由他运营铸币节点，周围朋友就能通过这个节点进行闪电支付——就像‘吉姆叔叔’托管系统那样使用闪电网络。所以只要有一个懂技术的人，就能帮助周围上百人建立起完全隐私的离线支付系统。但我们发现这不仅适用于实体社区，数字社区同样可以这样运作。

And you can run this for your local group of Bitcoiners, like 20 people. If you want, you can run a mint for them. And what people are doing is, like, for for their village or for their for their, like, physical Bitcoin meetup community, that there's, like, one technical guy, and that technical guy runs the mint, and the friends around the guy can use the Mint to make Lightning payments, to have, like, a custodial wallet with the guy, like an Uncle Jim system, where they can pay the Lightning make Lightning payments. So it it it's it's enough to have one guy who's technical to help like a 100 people around that guy to have like a perfectly private and offline payment system that they can use. But what we're also seeing is that this is not only for physical communities, but also like digital communities, basically, if you want.

有些网站内置支付系统时通常会这样操作：你访问网站，看到‘账户充值’提示，转入比特币后显示‘当前余额20,000聪’，然后点击按钮观看视频等操作就会扣除余额对吧？这种系统完全可以用Chaumian铸币替代。网站不再需要你在服务器数据库里充值显示余额，而是自己运营铸币节点给你电子现金。你持有这些eCash后，通过交互使用网站服务时再支付给网站。

So there are websites that have like some kind of a payment system inside and they would usually, like you go to a website and it says like, you know, charge your account, then you send some Bitcoin over. Then it says like, you have now 20,000 Satoshis on that website, and then you do, you press some buttons, you watch a video or something, and that's like subtracts from your account, right? You can replace this system also with a Charmian Mint. So, instead of like charging your account and then showing it like up there where the balance is like fully controlled on the web server's database, What the web server can do is just run a mint and give you eCache. And then you have the eCache, you have it, and then you use the websites by interacting with the website, you pay back the website for the services that you use.

比如视频流媒体场景。目前最火的是AI应用——人们开发的那种用比特币充值的聊天机器人（大家都知道）。但这里你不是充值余额，而是获得eCash。当与聊天机器人对话时，就用这些eCash支付服务费用。为什么这很酷？

For example, video streaming. What we're seeing right now is for AI use, this is really popular, where people are building like chatbots, like AI chatbots that everyone knows where you can pay Bitcoin to charge your balance. You don't have, like you don't charge your balance, you get eCash for it. And then as you chat with the chatbot, you pay for the service with the eCash. And why is this cool?

酷点有很多，但最重要的是：你不需要注册账户就能使用。不需要提供邮箱或电话号码，只需发送比特币获取eCash，用完即止。这种用户接入方式超级简单。

It's cool for several reasons, but, like, the most important part is that you don't need an account or you don't need to register to be able to use it. There is no email address or telephone number required to be able to use the system. You just send Bitcoin, get eCash, use eCash, that's it. And just pay it back. So it's super easy to onboard users.

与此同时，使用它的隐私保护堪称业界最佳。默认状态下就能提供你能获得的最佳隐私保护。对于聊天机器人用例而言，这意味着作为个人的你、作为邮箱地址的你、作为账户标识符的你，都无法与你在聊天互动中的支付行为关联。因此没人知道此刻正在输入文字的人是谁。所以我们有用例是人们用它构建钱包，也有用例是单纯搭建网页体验。

And at the same time, the privacy of using it is like best in class privacy. Just by default, it's like the best privacy that you can get. For chatbot use case, it means that you as a person, you as an email address, you as an account identifier, you cannot be connected to the payments that you do for the chat interaction. So no one really knows who's the person now entering this text there. So we have use cases where people build wallets with this, and we have use cases where people just build like web experiences with it.

最妙的是市面上有许多由个人、公司或网络服务运营的铸币机构可供选择。由于Cashew是协议而非应用或公司，只是一套带规范的代码，这意味着已有许多人开发了不同的铸币机构和钱包。因此你首次能自主选择想用的钱包和托管方，且不受其束缚。你可以从15款钱包中挑选最爱，然后在选定的钱包里分散存放——比如在这个铸币机构存2000聪，那个存5000聪，之后就能像使用普通闪电钱包一样继续操作。

And the nice thing is there are many mints out there that are run by individuals, by companies, by web services and so on that you can choose from. And you can, because it's a protocol, Cashew is a protocol, it's not an app, it's not a company, it's just a bunch of code with specifications. That means there are many different people who have built the mints and the wallets. So it it's kind of the first that you can choose which wallet you wanna use and you can choose the custodian that you wanna use, and you're not bound to that wallet or to the custodian. So you can have you can choose from, like, 15 different wallets, the one that you like most, and then in that wallet, you can have, like, 10 different mints where you have, like, 2,000 Satoshis in this mint, 5,000 Satoshis in that mint, and so on and so forth, and then just keep using it like a normal Lightning wallet.

所以它不会锁定用户。你可以自由选择软件，若不喜欢当前软件，随时可以转用其他开发者完全不同的应用，继续使用相同协议。你还能根据信任度在不同铸币机构间转移资金，比如更信任这家受监管公司，就愿意在其铸币机构存放100美元——严格来说不是账户，而是通过该铸币机构操作。

So it doesn't lock you in. You can choose the software. If you don't like the software, you can just say, I don't want this anymore, move to the other one, and just keep using the same protocol with a different app made by someone completely different. And you can also move your funds around between the different mints depending on, let's say, I trust this guy more because this is like a regulated company and like I'm okay with leaving a $100 on that account. No, it's not an account, but getting from that mint.

可能只从网上找到的这个叫Rando的铸币机构获取2000聪。大部分复杂性都被封装起来了。

And like maybe 2,000 sets only from this Rando that I found on the internet whose Mint I used. And most of it is abstracted away.

我想对听众说：实际使用没听起来这么复杂，这些都被封装好了。我第一次收到电子现金就是几年前我们上期节目时你发给我的。

I was gonna say for anyone listening to this, it's not complicated as it sounds like all of this abstracted away. And the first time I ever received eCash was from you on the last show we did a couple of years ago.

是啊，我记得。

Yeah, I remember. It

就像第一次发送或接收比特币交易时的震撼——'天啊这太神奇了'。大家真该亲身体验

was almost like the first time you send or receive a Bitcoin transaction. The fact that it's like, holy shit, It's it's a mind blowing thing. People should try

试试看。对，你应该试试。你可以去cashew.space下载，那里能找到几个钱包，然后通过Noster发现铸币，找到后就可以尝试使用。

it out. Yeah. You should try it out. So you can you can download you can go to cashew.space. You'll you'll find a few wallets there, and then you can, like, discover mints using Noster, and you'll find them, and you can try, you know, you try them out.

体验与普通比特币钱包完全不同，因为电子现金本身更好用。你可以复制粘贴，就像可以带走这条消息。上次我通过Signal或Telegram发给你时，它看起来像一串文本，就像一张可以互联网传送的纸质货币，对方能直接接收。

The experience is very different from using a normal Bitcoin wallet because, like, the e cash itself is, like, better. You can copy paste it. Like, you can Yeah. Take the message. Like, you can take the e cash, and I can I think last time I sent it to you over Signal or Telegram or something, and it looks like a piece of string text that is like you can imagine it as a piece of paper money, basically, that you can send over the Internet and the other person receives it?

由于它是无记名资产，电子现金本身就是无记名代币，我们能打造OG比特币无法实现的体验，比如轻触支付——这让我特别兴奋，因为法币系统已经充分验证了这种模式。

And because it's a bear asset, the eCash itself is a bear token, we can build experiences with it that are not possible with OG normal Bitcoin, which is, for example, tap to pay, which I'm very excited about because the Fiat system is like really putting it out there.

轻触支付的用户体验太棒了。

The UX of tap to pay is amazing.

这简直是我能想到最便捷的场景。比如在危地马拉山区徒步时，遇到卖可乐的小棚子。在荒郊野外掏出iPhone，滴一声半秒完成支付，他们设定的标准实在惊人。

The UX of like, that's the most bearish thing that I can think of. You go to you know, you go on a hike in Guatemala in the mountains and there's like a little hut that sells you like a Coke. And in the middle of nowhere, you take out your iPhone, you do this beep, and it takes half a second and the payment clears. It's just amazing. Really, the the level that the the the bar that they set.

非常高。

Very high.

确实非常高。我们作为围绕比特币的开源社区，也应该努力复现这种支付便捷性和直觉操作。通过Cashew，我们正为比特币生态重建这些体验——因为我们关心比特币的易用性。我脑海中总浮现巴西海滩上网络信号差却要卖芒果的老太太，这就是典型用户画像。

And and it's very high. And we, as an open source community working around Bitcoin, we should also try to replicate, you know, the same ease of use and the same intuition for payments. So with Cashew, we're really trying to rebuild also these experiences for the Bitcoin space because we care about how Bitcoin works and how easy it should be to use Bitcoin. In my mind, it's like the prototypical prototypical user I always think about is the mango selling old lady in the Brazilian beach where the Internet is bad. Right?

这就像我想为她开发软件。我希望她拥有最佳的隐私保护、最佳的使用体验，以及最快的交易速度。我认为我们能做到。所以，这是我们工具箱中的工具之一。

That's like I wanna build software for her. I I want her to have the best privacy and the best experience and, like, the fastest transaction possible. And and I think we'll get there. So, like, it's it's it's one of the two it's one of the tools that we have in our in our tool belt.

上次我们做那个节目时，腰果钱包还是新出的。我记得你发了一条推文说，我刚开发了这个，虽然还有很多漏洞，但可以试试看。现在，我还在使用腰果钱包，也用过澳洲坚果钱包，那个也非常不错。

So when we last did that show, the cashew wallet was new. I remember you putting a tweet out, which is like, I've just built this, it's full of bugs, but have a play. And now, like I still use the cashew wallet. I've used macadamia as well. That's very good.

腰果钱包现在发展得如何了？是否已经足够稳定，任何人都能放心使用？当然，你不会在里面放很多钱，但适量的资金还是可以的。

What's the state of Cashew now? Is it to the point where it's really solid, anyone can trust it with like a decent Obviously, it's not something you're gonna put a lot of money in, but like a decent amount of money.

是的。就软件质量、加密技术以及我们投入的努力而言，我可以说这是一个非常可靠的系统，我自己也信任它。它是开放且可验证的，如果你有相关能力，可以查看代码自行验证。

Yeah. So I think in terms of software quality, cryptography, the how well we how much effort we've put into it at this point, I can really say, like, it's it's it's a solid system, and I trust it. And it's open and verifiable. So you can just like, you can look at it if you're competent. You can read the code, and you can look at it yourself.

如果你不信任别人开发的应用，完全可以自己开发一个。有详细的英文规范文档，描述了Cache的工作原理，你可以基于这些文档构建自己的应用。这就是为什么现在有大约15种不同的钱包。

And if you're if you don't trust the app, if you don't trust the app that someone else made, you can just make your own app. There's specifications. They are written in English language. And you can read those documents that describe exactly how Cache works, and you can build your own app. That's why there are like 15 different wallets.

所以在软件方面，我认为目前已经非常稳定了。它运行极快，极其可靠，开箱即用，完全不需要了解我刚才提到的那些技术细节。

So in terms of software, I think, yes, we're like really solid at this point. It's super fast. It's super reliable. It just works. And it doesn't require you to know any of the things that I just said.

它就是能用。关于资金托管的风险，我始终建议人们只用微量金额进行尝试。作为这个领域的开发者，我把它当作实体钱包对待——你不会在实体钱包里放几百美元到处跑，因为可能会丢失或遗忘在酒吧被人偷走。

It just works. In terms of trust, what it means to put money into it, I would always advise people to just, you know, do it with microscopic amounts, just small amounts. I treat it, you know, I'm a developer in that space, I treat it like my physical wallet. I wouldn't put like hundreds and hundreds of dollars into my physical wallet and run around because you could lose it. You could forget it in a bar and someone could steal it.

所以你在实体现金上做的权衡取舍，我在电子现金上也同样如此。我会分散持有，比如十几美元、二十美元，或者一百美元分散在不同铸币方。我试图将它们分开。如果其中一家想卷款跑路，那我可能损失大约二十美元，这显然...但这是我计算过的风险。

So the way that you make that trade off with physical cash, I make the same kind of trade off with e cash. So I keep, I don't know, a dozen bucks, $20, maybe a 100 with different mints. And I tried to separate it. If one of them tries to rug me, well, then I might lose like $20 or so, which obviously But it's a calculated risk that I took.

有哪家铸币方已经跑路了吗？

Have any of them rugged yet? Any of the mint?

据我所知目前还没有铸币方跑路。不，就我所知目前没人跑路。而且——敲敲木头——也没有出现重大技术问题。我没听说有人遭遇特别糟糕的情况。钱包可能偶尔有些小故障，但都是个别现象。

I don't know of any mint that has rocked so far. No, no one has rocked so far as far as I know. Like, I don't also like even like knock on wood, there haven't been any major technical issues either. So I'm not aware of, like, things going super bad for anyone. There might be, like, a bug here and there with the wallets, but that's, like, isolated issues.

目前没人跑路，我希望保持下去，但这显然不是我所能控制的。我不运营这些系统，人们可以随心所欲地使用它们。

But no one has rocked, and I hope that continues, but obviously it's not in my control. I don't run these systems. It's just people can do with it what they want.

我想问个有点尴尬的问题，我紧张得不敢开口，因为不想乌鸦嘴。但看到比特币隐私开发者遭受如此打压时，你会感到不安吗？

So I wanna ask you a question that's a little bit awkward and I'm nervous to ask it because I don't wanna wish anything into the world. But when we've seen such a crackdown in privacy developers in Bitcoin, are you nervous at all? It

确实影响我。是的，因为我是普通人。我非常在意，关心这个领域的同仁，关心比特币，关心大家的安全，以及这些事对开发者心理的影响。不止我一人如此。

does affect me. Yes, because I'm a normal person. I care a lot. I care about the people in this space and I care about Bitcoin and I care about the safety of the people and what it does to the psyche of a developer. I'm not alone.

我和许多开发者保持联系。我们正试图组建一个互相关心彼此安全的开发者联盟。受周围事件影响的不止我一人，因为我们坚信自己在做正确的事，做合乎道德的事，绝非作恶。我们真的只是想改善这个世界。

I'm in touch with many developers out there. We're trying to be a union of developers that also care about each other and each other's safety. So I'm not the only one who's like affected by the things happening around us because we all believe that we're doing the right thing. We're doing a moral thing and we're not trying to do anything bad. We're literally just trying to improve the world.

我们正在考虑最弱势群体和最需要帮助的人。与此同时，你会发现政府甚至自相矛盾地推翻自己制定的操作建议，对吧？比如我们看到的Wasabi钱包——抱歉不是Wasabi钱包，是Samurai钱包和Tornado Cash这两个典型案例，这些系统的开发者和运营者不仅遭到严厉制裁，现在还因运营非托管系统面临监禁威胁，即便按照FinCEN的指导方针，每个人... 是啊。

And we're thinking about the most vulnerable and those who need it the most. And at the same time, you see that governments even contradict their own suggestions on how to operate, right? So we've seen Wasabi Wallet I'm sorry, not Wasabi Wallet, Samurai Wallet and Tornado Cash as two prime examples that where the developers and the operators of these systems were heavily sanctioned and now also are threatened with jail time for operating non custodial systems where everyone, like with FinCEN guidance, Yeah.

但FinCEN说过，即便他们想注册也注册不了。

Well, FinCEN said they couldn't register with them even if they wanted to.

政府指导文件说'这些是规则，遵守规则就万事大吉'。但当你开始建设时，由于不可预见的... 这风险该怎么计算？所以最令人焦虑的就是根本不知道规则是什么。

Government guidance that says, These are the rules. Play by these rules. Everything will be okay. And then you start building and then know, due to unforeseen, you know, this is How do you even calculate that risk? So I think the most stressful part is just not knowing what the rules are.

当规则不明时，会严重影响工作效率。当然还有心理健康问题，虽然有人抗压能力更强。但关键在于我们突破旧体系的建设方式——这需要巨大能量和使命驱动的专注力，很多人难以忍受这种不确定性。因此现在比任何时候都更需要支持身边的黑客，声张你的理念，让他们知道自己并不孤独。我知道我们并不孤单。

And when you don't know what the rules are, it can really affect your productivity. And I mean, obviously also like mental health and psyche, and some people are more stress resistant than others, but especially the way that we can move forward to build, to build our way out of the old system. It requires like a lot of energy and mission driven focus, and lots of people cannot handle the fact that we just don't know. So I think it's more important than ever to show support to your local neighborhood hacker, to support them and to just be vocal about what your ideals are and especially show them that they're not alone. I know we're not alone.

我们拥有由个人和组织构成的庞大支持系统，他们真心关怀并能提供法律保护。我建议所有有此感受的人——我知道存在这样的人群——主动联系他人，倾诉处境，这往往大有裨益。但切记不要迷失焦点：我们只是宏大进程中的个体，目标远比局部的小成败重要得多。

We have like a big system of individuals and organizations that really care and that are also like that can protect you legally. So I would advise for anyone who feels like this, and again, I know that there are people out there who feel like this, to just reach out to others and just talk about the situation that you're in, and often it really helps a lot. But then again, do not lose focus. We're just one individual in a larger process, and the goal is more important than the localized little failures and the successes. Like the goal is much, much, much bigger than that.

只要持续朝着正确方向前进，我想... 希望我们终会顺利。

And, you know, as long as we just keep moving into the right direction, I think we'll I hope we'll be okay.

我认为你们的事业令人惊叹，确实在构建人类所需的工具。很高兴你们仍在坚持，因为我很理解为何有人此刻会选择退出这样的项目。这非常酷——那么下一步计划是什么？

Well, I think it's amazing what you're doing. I think you definitely are building tools that humanity needs. So I'm very glad you're staying in your building because I would understand why you might walk away from a project like this at the moment. So I think it's very cool. But what's next?

我知道你一直在开发BitChat。

I know you've been working on BitChat.

是的，我也在开发Bitchat。我喜欢自由技术，喜欢赛博朋克技术。对我来说，这意味着按照我理想的方式塑造互联网，实现赛博朋克对互联网的愿景。我们刚才讨论了很多关于比特币、电子现金及其作用的内容，但通信也是重要组成部分。

Yeah, I've been also working on Bitchat. So I like freedom tech. I like cyberpunk tech. And for me, that means shaping the internet in a way that I want the internet to be and fulfilling the cyberpunk vision of the internet. So we've just talked a lot about Bitcoin, money, eCash, and how that, the role that plays, but communication is a big part.

比如SIGNAL、TOR或MATRIX这类通信项目正在推动发展。最近我参与了一个叫Bitchat的项目。这是杰克·多西发起的项目——没错就是那个杰克·多西，虽然和我无关。他灵光一现就开发了这个iPhone专属的蓝牙即时通讯应用，最初仅支持iPhone设备，能让用户通过蓝牙点对点聊天，但最有趣的是它能组建网状网络。

Communication and things like SIGNAL, for example, or TOR or MATRIX, those are projects driving it forward. So recently I've been involved in a project called Bitchat. BitChat is a project started by Jack Dorsey, no other one than Jack Dorsey, who, I mean, I had nothing to do with that. He just came up with a He vibe coded it. He vibe coded a project that is a messenger that runs on your iPhone, initially only on the iPhone, that's what he built, that connects to your peers over Bluetooth, so you can chat over Bluetooth, but the most interesting part is that it builds a mesh.

这是个网状网络。什么意思呢？你可以把它想象成由独立手机组成的网络，这些设备能相互传递消息。比如我们之间的通讯，如果有中间人，他们就能帮忙转发信息。所以这是个基于蓝牙的网状通讯工具，不过蓝牙的传输距离相当有限。

So it's a mesh network. What does it mean? You can imagine it like a network, like a yeah, like a network of individual phones that all can like, that can transport the messages between them. So the message between me and you, like if there are people between us, they can transport that message from me to you. So, that means like Bluetooth, it's a Bluetooth mesh messenger, and Bluetooth has a fairly limited range terms of proximity.

有效范围大概几十米，有时可能更远些，但绝不可能达到几百公里。

It can be like a couple dozen meters or sometimes even more, but it's certainly not gonna be, you know, hundreds of kilometers.

没法覆盖整座城市。

It's not getting across the city.

确实不行。但如果网状网络足够大，就有机会通过多跳中转到达目标。很多网络系统都这样运作，甚至你们日常使用的互联网也是基于路由协议。当我从电脑发送信息到你电脑时，并不是直接单跳传输，而是要经过多个路由器的接力传递。

No. But if you have a mesh that is large enough, there is at least a chance that you can reach your destination through multiple hops through that mesh. And lots of network systems work that way. Even like the normal internet that you use is a protocol that is routed. So when I send a message from my computer to your computer, it doesn't go like beep, single hop, but goes through several routers who all help me to reach you.

所以你可以想象这有点类似，但高度本地化。BitChat让你能与附近的人聊天，无论你去哪里，都不需要邮箱或注册。你只需启动它，就能看到周围可联系的人，然后直接开始聊天。

So you can imagine this a bit similar, but hyper localized. So BitChat allows you to chat with those people in your proximity, and wherever you go, it doesn't require email address or sign up. You can just, like, you start it up, then you see who's around you and who's reachable, and then you can just start chatting with them.

有趣的是，我错过了这个应用的测试阶段。几天前正式发布时才拿到，一直在研究，但直到你进门之前，我连一个连接都没建立过。

It's funny because I I didn't get in on the test flight of this app. I got it when it was, like, on main release only a few days ago, I've and been looking at it, and I've not had a single connection until you walked in the door.

看，它正在我手机上运行。如果你保持开启，它会持续寻找其他BitChat用户，你可以直接和他们聊天。他发布了iOS应用，我觉得太棒了，完全是我的菜。

See, yeah, it's running on my phone. And yeah, it's constantly If you leave it running, it constantly looks for other BitChat users, and you can just start chatting with them. And so he put out that iOS app and I thought it's like fantastic. It's amazing. It's like exactly it's up my alley.

我是安卓用户，所以接手了这个项目。我特别喜欢vibe编程，于是把他的iOS应用移植成外观体验相同的安卓版并发布了。现在我们各自开发两个兼容的版本——他做iOS，我做安卓。我们在里加的会议上，今天参加了开发者大会前的BTC++活动，非常有趣且实用。

I'm an Android user, so I took it and I also like, I heavily love vibe coding a lot. So I took his iOS app and translated it into an Android app that looks and feels the same and published that. So now we're kind of working on two different apps. He's building the iOS app, I'm building the Android app and they're compatible with each other so they can talk to each other. And we're at a conference here in Riga, and today we had the developer conference, the pre conference, BTC plus plus and it was super fun and very useful at that conference.

基本上很多人都在用这个应用。你可以边听演讲边打开BitChat，看到25人在线，就能实时讨论所见内容。比如问WiFi密码，人们会通过BitChat发给你——它支持离线使用，完全依赖蓝牙，和你手机里其他网络应用截然不同，这很酷，是另一个平行系统。

So basically, lots of people had that app running, and you can just walk, you can watch a talk, and you can take out Bitchat, and you see like 25 people are online right now, and you can just talk about what you're seeing. You can, you know, or say, like, what's the Wi Fi password? And, like, people sending me the Wi Fi password over a bit chat because you can use it while you're offline. It's just it relies on Bluetooth, which is completely different from the other Internet apps that you have on your phone. So it's cool because it's a parallel system again.

它不需要网络、注册或任何人的许可。我们不需要购买注册SIM卡，也不需要连接网线的路由器。纯粹的点对点魔法，直接在手机间跳转。

It doesn't require Internet. It doesn't require registration, and it doesn't require anyone's permission. So you can just like, we don't need a SIM card that we would have to buy and register, or we don't need a router that would need like a cable Internet connection. It's just peer to peer pure magic being, you know, hopping from one phone to another.

网状网络的最佳应用场景是什么？即使在人口密集的城市，比如我住的公寓楼里可能适用，但想给对面街道的建筑发消息，可能就超出范围了。那么理想的使用场景究竟是怎样的？

What's like the best use case for a mesh network? Because even if you're in a pretty highly densely populated city, you still have like this. So for example, the building I live in, like I could imagine mesh network working in that building, but if I wanna message the building over the street, like it's probably not gonna reach that far. So like, what is the ideal use case for a

Mesh网络？就像任何网络一样，存在网络效应。意思是使用的人越多，它就越有用。没错，正是这样。

mesh network? So like with any network, there is a network effect. That means like the it gets more useful, the more people use it. Yep. Right.

我是说，这对任何通讯工具都适用。但在这里，基础设施本身确实如此。运行的人越多，理论上能覆盖的人就越多。有趣的是我在公寓里用它和邻居聊天效果很好。不过我们还不清楚它的扩展性如何。

So, I mean, that's also true for any messenger. But here in this case, it's like literally true for the infrastructure itself. So the more people have it running, the more people you can reach in principle. Funny because I also use it like in apartments talking to neighbors and it worked really well. So, let's say if they're Like, we don't know how well it scales yet.

目前最大的Mesh网络规模还比较小，但它的潜力在于——特别是在互联网失效时能大显身手。现实中互联网经常瘫痪，尤其是在人群密集处。比如体育场、音乐节、会议现场，也可能是灾难场景，比如EMP攻击切断了网络，或是自然灾害摧毁了蜂窝网络，这时你仍需要与社区保持联系。这类情况下，BitChain BitChat这类应用可能成为你最后的数字通讯手段。当然我们目前并非专为灾难场景开发。

The largest meshes are still kind of small, but potentially, what are use cases for it is, especially in cases where the internet doesn't work, this can really shine. And there are many cases where the Internet doesn't work, especially when people concentrate. So this could be a sports stadium, could be a festival, could be a conference, but it could also be a disaster situation where I don't know, maybe an EMP has turned off the Internet or some, like, natural disaster has taken down the cell network or something where you still wanna be able to communicate to your neighborhood, for example. In those cases, like an app like BitChain BitChat can be the last digital communication that you have. So obviously, we're not building yet for the disaster use case.

它仍处于早期开发阶段，我们需要测试验证其在大规模Mesh中的可靠性。目前进展不错，我们会持续优化。值得一提的还有Meshtastic、LoRa等技术，以及曾用于2019年香港抗议的Firechat——这是个典型案例。

So it's still in early development and we need to test it and make sure that it scales to larger meshes and see how reliable it is to reach people. But it's looking pretty good so far, so we're just going to keep improving it. And I think like since this hasn't really There are other mesh projects that we can mention, like Meshtastic or LoRa, the technology. There's Firechat that is like previous work that has done something similar. So maybe one interesting example here is Firechat, which was important in the Hong Kong protest in 2019.

啊这很酷。当时中国政权监控抗议者的互联网，甚至切断网络以压制政治表达和街头组织。人们转而使用Firechat互传消息：'这里现在安全'、'我们往这边转移'。任何需要与周边人群直接通讯、且不愿依赖互联网的场景，这都超级实用。

Oh, that's cool. Yes, where the Chinese regime monitored the Internet of protesters or also can play around with the Internet, turn it off to basically make it harder to voice a political opinion and organize on the streets. People started using Firechat back then to send each other messages like, it's safe here now. Now we're going here. So anything where the communication requires you to talk to lots of people around you and you don't want to go over the Internet, this is super useful.

这太棒了。随着规模扩大，它是否能作为既支持Mesh组网、在非灾难时又能连接互联网的混合网络？

That's very cool. And so as this scales, is it the kind of thing that you could use as a mesh network that's also connected to the Internet when you're not in one of those disaster scenarios?

是的。我们已经在实现这个功能了。BitChat的iOS版已集成通过NoSter连接独立Mesh网络的能力——NoSter是另一种自由技术，允许直接通过公钥通信。

Yes. Yes. So we're already working on this. BitChat has this already The iOS app has this already integrated, where we can connect meshes, individual meshes, basically, through NoSter. So there's another freedom technology like NoSter where you can just talk to a public key basically.

目前实现的方式是我们在物理空间会面。我看到你的手机，也就是你的公钥，你看到我的，然后我们可以互相关注以确保我们确实是彼此认识的那个人。之后当我们分开且蓝牙断开连接时，就可以默认切换回Nostr网络进行通讯。

So the way it's implemented right now is that we two meet in a physical space. I see your phone, like your public key, you see mine, and then we can favorite each other's so to make sure that we're actually the person that you know that you're talking to. And then when we spread and we go apart and there is no Bluetooth connection between us anymore, then we can default back to Nostr, basically, and then use the Nostr network to talk to each other.

所以它不是从Nostr获取社交图谱，只是使用公私密钥对吗？

So it's not taking a social graph from Nostr, it's just using the public private keypad?

不，基础是基于你的BitChat身份，Nostr仅作为超出蓝牙范围时的通讯备用方案。

No, so the base is like the Yes, the basis for it is your BitChat identity and Nostr is just used as a communication layer in case the Bluetooth range is is out of range.

明白了。这很酷。我想了解你开发这款应用的过程，因为我从没写过一行代码。

I see. Yeah. That's very cool. And and so I wanna know about you vibe coding this app because Yeah. Like, I've never written a single line of code.

噢，你应该试试。

Oh, you should.

这就是我的现状。不过当你拿到Jack开发的iOS应用时，真的能简单地用AI转换出安卓版本吗？

So that that's where I'm at with this. Mhmm. But when you take the iOS app that Jack developed, is it literally as easy as like putting that through AI and being like, make this the same, but for Android?

某种程度上是的，但也不完全是。如果你了解自己在做什么以及机器在做什么会很有帮助，因为当前AI工具虽然非常强大。我要特别鼓励听众们尝试编程，它能带给你掌控感。在当今世界，让电子按你的意愿行事是最接近魔法的事情。

Kind of, yeah. Kind of yes and no. I mean, it definitely helps if you know what you're doing and what the machine is doing because right now, the AI tools are in this of all, they're amazing. So I should be super encouraging to anyone listening here is to try it out because coding itself gives you the feeling of agency. It is the closest thing to magic in the current world that you can get to, is making electrons do what you want them to do.

相信我，凯莉。我知道你有多热爱这个。还记得你来贝德福德找作弊代码的时候吗？第二天，当大家都去看足球赛、聚在一起喝啤酒时，你却躲在俱乐部里写代码。

Trust me, Kelly. I know how much you love this. Remember when you came to Bedford for cheat code. The second day, when everyone went to the football, everyone's hanging out drinking beers. You're in the clubhouse coding.

是啊。我是说，当时并不孤单。两年前吧，大概两年前，这需要专家级的知识。作为初学者，你几乎什么都做不了，要做出点有趣的东西得付出巨大努力。

Yeah. I mean, wasn't alone. So two years ago, maybe two years ago, this required expert level knowledge. You couldn't do anything. As a beginner, to get to a point where you can do anything interesting required so much effort.

但这份努力依然值得。如果你真想走这条路，还是应该学会真正的编程。不过有时候你只是想做个网站，有时候只想开发个游戏，也许你是个设计师需要个网站，或者突然有个疯狂点子想实现出来看看效果。

And it's still worth the effort. You should still learn how to really code if you really want to walk that path. But sometimes you just want to make a website. Sometimes you just want to make a game. Sometimes maybe you're a designer and you need a website or you have just a crazy idea and you want to see it live and see, like play around with it.

现在的工具已经足够让几乎不懂编程的人通过智能代理尝试构建自己喜欢的应用。比如当它开始搭建框架后，你可以说'我们做个社区二手交易平台'，它就能自动生成网站让你发布商品并与潜在买家沟通——现阶段虽然功能有限，但确实能在不写一行代码的情况下实现这些。

The tools today are good enough for a person who doesn't know almost nothing about coding to get an agent and try something and let it build an app that you like. And then you can just like Once it starts to build a framework around and shows, look, let's you say, let's build a marketplace where I can put Where I can sell objects for my neighborhood or something like that. And it will make a website for you where you can list objects and then communicate with those who are interested in buying them, for example, right? So it won't be able to do that at this point. You can do that without knowing a single line how to code.

像BitChat这样复杂的项目属于高阶难度，你不动代码就能完成90%的工作。但到某个阶段——至少目前AI还没进化到完全自主——还是需要人类把关。像我这样不用AI写了多年代码的人，角色就从开发者转变为项目经理，把AI当成程序员来对话。你甚至可以角色扮演整个项目：'我们在做这个很棒的项目，要求超高稳定性和易用性'，然后让AI'详细规划实现方案'。

For a project as complex as BitChat, that's like more on the complicated side, you can get away Like, you can do 95%, 90% of the work without even looking at the code. But at some point, things are At this point, at least the AIs aren't there yet that they still need someone to hold their hands. So as a coder who's been coding for a very long time just without AIs and knows, kind of know what I'm doing, it becomes like you change your role from being a developer into a project manager, where you're talking to the AI as if it's a programmer, and you can even LARP a project. Like, we're working on this project, and it's supposed to be great, and I want it to be super stable and easy to use, and you know, it has these requirements. And then you say, like, make a detailed plan of how you would approach this.

它能生成非常详尽的计划书，就像软件创业公司的项目规划：第一步搭建应用框架，第二步设计界面，第三步蓝牙通信，第四步用户发现功能，第五步实现私信系统。

And you can just generate a very detailed plan like in a project that you would do in a software startup, for example, where it says, like, step one, build, like, the framework of the app. Step two, build the interface. Step three, talk to Bluetooth. Step four, find others. Step five, implement DMs.

第六步集成Nosta功能。就这样步步推进，你可以详细规划整个项目，然后执行这个长清单

Step six, implement Nosta. So step by step by step by step, you can spell out what the project should be, and then you can take this long plan

把它交还给AI。

Give it back to AI.

把它交还给下一个AI。这样你就像是在管理多个AI。通过这种方式，你可以选择一个更擅长规划，另一个更擅长执行等等。你会在这个过程中积累更多经验。但总的来说，作为一名软件开发人员，我认为现在几乎每个人都明白，如果你现在不参与这场游戏，那么，我是说，我希望你五年后还能有工作，因为当前AI发展最具讽刺意味的是，我们原以为它会取代那些枯燥的工作。

Give it back to the next AI. So what you do is like you're managing multiple AIs. Doing it, you can choose one is better at planning, the other one is better at implementing and so on. You gain more experience in doing that. But yeah, generally speaking, as a software developer, I think at this point, almost everyone understands, if you're not in this game right now, then, I mean, I hope you'll have a job in five years because the most ironic part about the evolution of AI right now is that we thought it would replace the boring jobs.

是的，原本以为被取代的会是蓝领工人。

Yeah, it was always meant to be the blue collar workers that would get replaced.

没错，没错。这是个好消息。你的工作现在变得比以前更重要了。

Yeah, yeah. It's a good news. Your job has just gotten more important than before.

水管工不会被取代。

The plumber is not getting replaced.

是的，我为水管工感到非常高兴。相反，世界各地的软件开发人员现在都处于高度警惕状态。我希望大多数人都是这样——如果你没有全力以赴，利用AI将自己的生产力提升10倍，那么，你知道——你正在

Yes, and I'm very happy for the plumber. On the contrary, software developers around the world are kind of like, you know, are in a high alert mode right now. I hope most of them are, is that if you are not on top of your game and using AI to increase your own productivity by like 10X, then, you know- You're

落后。

falling behind.

你已经落后了，几年后公司会面临这样的问题：我需要20个不使用AI的人来开发这个应用，还是只需要3个会使用AI的人？这种情况已经在发生了。所以，如果你还没开始，最好现在就开始。

You're falling behind and the question for a company in a couple of years will be like, do I need 20 people to build this app who don't use AI or do I need three of them who use AI? And that's already happening. So yeah, you better get started if you haven't yet.

我真的需要改进我的网站。你用什么AI工具来做这个？

I really need to improve my website. What AI tool do you use to do this?

有很多选择。我最喜欢的是Block的Goose。那是一个完全开源的界面，就像你电脑上的聊天窗口。它的优点在于可以与任何你想要的LLM提供商对话。

There are many to choose from. My favorite one is a Goose from Block. That's a fully open source interface. That's like a chat window on your computer. And the nice thing about it is that it can talk to any LLM provider that you want.

你可以订阅Grok、GPT或Entropic，然后把API密钥放进去。它是一个代理，不仅仅是像ChatGPT那样的文本聊天框，可以提问和获取回答。它是一个代理，意味着它可以做事。它可以改变你电脑上的东西，可以写文件，可以执行命令。所以你相当于给了它对你电脑的控制权，这样它就能通过一个命令为你生成整个网站。

So you can get a subscription with Grok or GPT or Entropic, and you put your API keys in there. And then it's an agent, so it's not just a text chat box like you know from ChatGPT where it can ask a question and get a response. But it's an agent, and that means that it can do things. So it can change things on your computer, it can write files on your computer, it can execute commands on your computer. So you're kind of giving it control over your computer, and that's how it can just like generate an entire website for you with a single command.

现在它们已经非常强大了，你可以说：'为我建立一个面向亚洲活动人士的教育性比特币网站，解释多重签名和混币的工作原理。'对吧？这就是一个提示。我敢肯定，用这个提示，你可以一次性生成一个看起来相当不错的网站。

At this point, they are so good that you can say, build me a educational Bitcoin website for activists from Asia and explain how multisig and coin joins work. Right? So that could be a prompt. I'm pretty sure with that prompt, you could one shot a website that looks pretty good.

太疯狂了。是的，看到这些真是太酷了。我对你的一切都印象深刻，Kelly。你现在就像是比特币领域最高产的开发者。

That's insane. Yeah. It's fucking cool to see. I'm so impressed with everything you've Kelly. You're like the most prolific dev in Bitcoin right now.

我们能不能以一个重要的问题结束？我大概三四个月前和Odell做了一个节目，整个主题是：比特币还是自由货币吗？考虑到我们今天讨论的一切，你认为比特币还是自由货币吗？

Can we close with one kind of big question? So I did a show with Odell maybe three or four months ago now, and the whole thing was on like, is Bitcoin still freedom money? And with taking into account like everything we've gone through today, do you think Bitcoin is still freedom money?

我绝对认为比特币就是自由货币。比特币的美妙之处在于它并不太依赖人们如何解读它。比特币就是比特币，具有它固有的属性，这些属性不会因为牛市、熊市、机构入场或抛售、Tornado Cash被起诉与否而改变。比特币是恒定的。

I absolutely do think that Bitcoin is freedom money. And the nice thing about Bitcoin is that it does not depend so much on the interpretation of what Bitcoin is. Bitcoin is just is. Has the properties that it has, and those don't change with, you know, the bull market and the bear market or the suits coming in or the suits selling their stash again or tornado cash and being indicted or not. So Bitcoin is a constant.

因为它依然保持着中本聪发明时的属性：去中心化、不可控、不可阻挡、可验证、公平，且无需许可即可使用，这些从未改变。不过我想说，比特币也依赖于使用它的人。只要足够多的人坚守这些理念，我们就处于安全地带。但即便对那些只关注比特币投资价值、只在乎币价上涨的人来说，这种上涨叙事也依赖于我刚才说的这些基础属性。如果比特币变成像投资账户那样，人们从不使用其无需许可的特性，如果全球比特币都被银行持有，人们只能通过不掌控私钥的账户接触比特币，那它将失去所有有趣的属性。

And because it still has the same properties that it had when Satoshi invented it, which is it is decentralized, it is uncontrollable, it is unstoppable, it is verifiable, and it's fair, and everyone can have access to it without permission, those things haven't changed. However, I wanna say that Bitcoin also depends on the people who use it. So as long as there are enough people who uphold these ideals, I think we're in a safe place. But even for those who are just interested in the monetary value that Bitcoin brings them in the investment case and just the number going up, I think even that number go up story depends on the basis of these properties that I said. Like, if Bitcoin becomes just like an investment account that where you never make use of the properties, which is like permissionless use of it, where if all the Bitcoin in the world would be held at the banks and the only interaction that people have with Bitcoin is from an account where you don't control the Bitcoin, then it will lose all of its interesting properties.

如果基本原则和基础属性不复存在，连2100万枚的限量也毫无价值。正如白皮书所言，比特币是点对点电子现金，为支付而生，为自由使用的个体而生。我们不能迷失这个初心。所有关于比特币的衍生叙事都建立在这个基础之上。

Even the 21,000,000 cap is not worth anything if the underlying principles and the underlying properties are not met. So Bitcoin, I think, you know, the white paper says it, it's peer to peer electronic cash. It's made for payments and it's made for individuals that use it at their own free will. So we cannot lose mission from Like, we cannot lose sight of that mission. And all the stories that we tell about Bitcoin on top of it all rely on this.

幸运的是，这是人类史上最具韧性、最稳定、最硬核的系统之一。所以我毫不担心，但这取决于听众中理解其价值主张的人来推动发展——因为除了我们没人会做这件事。如果我们不改进，它就不会进步；如果我们不传播，它就无法触达更多人。我们不能只依赖那些关注金融属性的人。

Luckily, it's one of the most resilient and most stable, most badass systems ever created in the history of the world. So I'm not worried at all, but it depends on people listening to this that understand what the value proposition is to drive this forward because no one is working on it except us. It's not improving if we don't improve it. It's not reaching more people if we don't spread the message. So, like, we cannot depend on the people who are just interested in the financial aspect of it.

让比特币伟大的不是金融属性。2100万枚无用的东西毫无价值，对吧？但2100万枚具备这些属性的东西，才有价值，不是吗？

That's not what makes Bitcoin great. And 21,000,000 of something that is useless is not worth anything. Right? 21,000,000 of something that has these properties, that is worth something. Right?

所以即便你只关注金融用例，也该思考如何支撑这个投资的基础——支持开发者，支持开源开发，支持所有维护开源运动的基金会和组织。正是这些人赋予比特币生命力与使命，让它能延续百年千年。

So even if you're only interested in a financial use case, then then then you should think about how you can support the basis of that investment. So support developers, support open source development, support all the all the foundations and organizations that support this open source movement because those are the people that keep it alive and that that give it the purpose that it has. So we can just go forward for another hundred and another thousand years.

或许换个更有趣的问法：你认为比特币用户中有多大比例会将其作为自由货币使用？

Maybe a more interesting way of framing that question is what percentage of Bitcoin users do you think will use Bitcoin as freedom money?

这是个好问题。我认为目前大多数接触比特币的人使用方式并不真正掌控比特币本身。多数人将比特币存放在交易所账户，但不用交易所账户的人数也在增加。具体数字我不清楚，但只要保持足够多的人持续运行节点、验证网络并提供算力保障安全，那么即使有人违背比特币原则使用它，也总有回旋余地。这对我来说是最重要的部分。

That's a good question. I think right now, probably most people who are interfacing with Bitcoin are using it in a way where they do not control the Bitcoin itself. So most people have Bitcoin on an exchange account, but also the number of people who don't have an exchange account is increasing. So I don't know the number, but as long as there is a healthy number of people that just keep running the notes and keep verifying the network and give us hash rate to secure it, then as long as that is given, then everyone who uses Bitcoin in a way that doesn't support its principles still has the option to fall back. So that's the most important part for me.

我不是在道德说教，指责谁用错了或正确使用比特币。就像，只管用比特币就好。即便是错误的使用方式也很棒。但作为开发者、社区成员和教育者，我们需要提醒人们，并确保那些为他人管理比特币的机构尊重这些原则——他们可以从交易所账户提取比特币，可以存入冷钱包。

I'm not saying, you know, I'm not moralizing that you're using Bitcoin wrong and you're using Bitcoin right. Just like, just use Bitcoin. Like, Even the wrong way of using Bitcoin is already great. But we, as developers and the community and educators, we need to remind people that And make sure that also the institutions and organizations who manage Bitcoin for others respect these principles, is that they can withdraw their Bitcoin from exchange account. You can put it in your cold storage.

这还涉及许多技术层面。我们需要扩展比特币网络，为日益增长的用户提供更快更便宜的交易。最关键的是始终存在从许可系统退回到无需许可世界的出口。确实有相当数量的人正在利用这一点。

And that also I mean, it has many technical dimensions. We need to scale Bitcoin. We need to be able to provide faster transactions and cheaper transactions for the increasing number of people using Bitcoin. So the most important part is that there's always an exit from the permission system into the permissionless world. And yeah, so I think there's a significant number of people that make use of that.

我并不太担心我们会陷入糟糕境地。

And I'm not too worried that we're in a bad place.

哇，Kali，这真是太棒了。作为比特币爱好者，我们很幸运能有你。非常感谢你抽时间接受访谈。

Well, Kali, man, this has been amazing. I think as Bitcoiners, we're very lucky to have you. So thank you for giving me the time, man.

谢谢你，Danny。

Thank you, Danny.

哦对了，结束前先说——大家都该去试试eCash和Noster。但你想推荐大家去哪里了解更多？在哪里能了解你、Cashew和你所有的项目？

Oh, actually, before we go, first of all, everyone should go try out eCash, try out Noster. But where do wanna send anyone? Where can you find out more about you and and Cashew and everything you're doing?

哦，你可以访问cashew.space。你会找到很多信息。如果你是用户，可以找到想用的应用；如果是开发者，就能发现贡献的方式。你可以在Twitter的Austrian上找到我，但你会找到的。

Oh, you can go to cashew.space. You'll find a lot of information. If you're a user, you can find applications that you want to use. If you're a developer, then you'll find ways to contribute. You can find me on Austrian on Twitter, but you'll find me.

这不是有趣的部分。我想说的是，如果你是一名软件开发者，在公司工作却觉得工作糟透了，得不到满足感，总在思考如何改变现状，比特币领域真的需要你。我们需要更多人投身比特币并改进它，请考虑一下吧。

That's not the interesting part. I'll just say, like, whatever if you're I want to talk to software developers. If you're a software developer, you're working in a company, and you feel like your job is shit, it doesn't give you fulfillment, and you're like, you're always thinking of how could I change the situation I'm in, the Bitcoin space literally needs you. Like, we need more people working on Bitcoin and improving Bitcoin. So please consider it.

开源现在变得可行了。我们从未有过一个系统能自我内部造血。所以加入比特币并为它贡献力量吧。投入精力改进比特币，我保证你会获得最棒的体验，因为开源世界就在那里，正等待你的贡献。请加入我们。

Open source is now viable. We never had a system where the system can fund itself from the inside. So join Bitcoin and contribute to Bitcoin. Put some effort into improving Bitcoin, and I can assure you you will have, like, you will have the the most amazing experience because, like, the open source world is just is there, and it was waiting for your contribution. So please join us.

参与Cashew项目吧。如果对Cashew不感兴趣，比特币更广阔的生态系统也欢迎你。直接联系我的话，我会手把手带你熟悉。为了增加开发者数量和支持力度，我会竭尽所能提供帮助。

Work on Cashew. If you're not interested in Cashew, just like on the broader Bitcoin ecosystem, join us. And if you talk to me directly, I'll hold your hand and show you around. So the whatever we can do to increase the number of developers and the support that we get, I'll I'll do my best to help with that.

那我们开始吧。好的，谢谢你凯利。很感激你，兄弟。我也很感谢你。

Let's go. Alright. Thank you, Kelly. Appreciate you, man. Appreciate you too.