肌酸的好处是否超越了健身房？

ABC听播客，收听广播、新闻、音乐等内容。

ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music, and more.

嗨。

Hey.

我是萨娜·卡达尔，主持ABC国家广播电台的《全在心中》节目。

I'm Sana Khadar, and I host All in the Mind on ABC Radio National.

如果你曾好奇过，人们为什么会这样行事，或者想了解活在别人脑子里是什么感觉，这个节目就是为你准备的。

If you've ever wondered why people behave the way they do or what it's like to live inside their heads, this is the show for you.

每周我们都会深入探讨一个与心理健康或心理学相关的主题，比如正念的利与弊、如何改善睡眠，以及经历精神病性发作是什么体验。

We dive deep each week into a topic related to mental health or psychology from the promise and perils of manifesting to how to get better sleep to what it's like to experience psychosis.

现在就打开ABC听应用收听吧。

Hear it now on the ABC Listen app.

诺曼，这通常是节目里我问你是不是个保健品爱好者的地方，但我已经知道了，因为我听了那期健康报道，

Now, Norman, this is the part of the show where I would usually ask you if you're, like, a supplement guy, but I already know because I listened to the health report that

嗯，我刚才说了，拉什。

you Well, I both said, Rash.

你和Priya都不吃任何保健品。

That you and Priya both don't take any supplements.

对。

No.

一样都不吃。

Not a one.

为什么呢？

Why not?

这些都没什么科学依据。

There's no evidence for them.

哦。

Oh.

当然，有些情况确实需要补充，比如怀孕、营养缺乏，或者其他特殊情况，但最好听专业营养师、注册营养师或你家庭医生的建议。

Obviously, there are some situations where you do need supplements, pregnancy, deficiency syndromes, other situations, but take the advice of a reliable nutritionist or dietitian or your GP to get the information.

那你可是啥都不缺，完美得很。

And you're perfect and deficient in nothing.

我确实缺乏很多东西，但不一定非得靠补充剂来解决。

Well, I'm deficient in a lot, but it's not necessarily supplements.

我以前说过很多次了，澳大利亚人的尿液可能是世界上最贵的。

As I've said many times before, Australians have some of the most expensive urine in the world.

这次节目会不会让你改变想法？

Could this be this episode that changes your mind?

咱们走着瞧吧。

Let's see.

这周我们在《这是什么皮疹？》这个播客里聊一聊肌酸。

This week, we are talking about creatine on What's That Rash?

这是个回答大家普遍关心的健康问题的播客。

That's the podcast where we answer the health questions that simply everyone is asking.

我老觉得这话自己说得太多了，动不动就说‘人人都在问’。

Now I feel like I say this a lot like, oh, everyone's asking.

我跟你说，已经有六个人给我们发邮件问肌酸的事了，说不定还不止。

I'm I'm telling you, six different people have emailed us about creatine, probably more than that.

不过今天要特别感谢Felicity、Deb、Jasmine、Joe、Gemma和Peter，他们都在问关于肌酸的事，但目的不一定是增肌，而是从骨质疏松到痴呆，再到围绝经期的各种健康问题。

But today, shout out to Felicity, Deb, Jasmine, Joe, Gemma, and Peter, who are all asking about creatine, not for muscle gains necessarily, but for everything from osteoporosis to dementia and perimenopause.

所以今天这一期，我们来彻底讲清楚肌酸。

So this is the definitive creatine episode today.

那我们先从肌酸到底是什么说起吧。

So we should start by talking about what creatine is.

之前我们其实简单提过一点。

Well, we have touched on this very briefly before.

我们以前做过一期《What's That Rash》，叫《自己乱吃运动补剂安全吗？》。

We did do an episode of What's At Rash a while ago called, is it safe to dose yourself with pre workout?

那时候聊过它，因为肌酸常出现在运动前补剂里，但眼下关于肌酸的讨论热度实在太高了，所以我们专门再回来深入聊一次。

And so we talked about it because it's often an ingredient in a pre workout blend, but there's just that much hype around creatine specifically at the moment that we are coming back in with it today.

我觉得它跟氨基酸挺接近的，但它本身并不是氨基酸。

I am gonna say it's amino acid adjacent, but it's not an amino acid.

这个物质是由氨基酸合成的，其实是几种氨基酸的组合。

This one's made from an amino acid, so it's a combination of amino acids.

我的意思是，如果你不是营养师或者化学家，这话可能也听不太懂。

I mean, if you're not a dietitian or a chemist, that probably doesn't really mean that much to you anyway.

但其实人体自己也能合成肌酸，大概能产生我们所需的一半，另一半则来自饮食，比如肉类、鱼类和其他食物，它在体内扮演着非常有趣的角色。

But we the body makes its own creatine and probably makes about 50% of what we need, and the other 50% comes from our diet, meat, fish, and other foodstuffs, and it's got a really fascinating role in the body.

它有点像抽水蓄能电站——山顶有个水库，需要用电的时候，水往下冲，带动涡轮发电。

It's a bit like one of those, you know, hydro schemes where you pumped hydro, where you have the the the lake at the top of the hill, and when you need the energy, the lake empties, and it goes down through the turbine and generates energy.

明白了。

Okay.

等用电低谷时，再把水抽回上游。

And then when there's off peak electricity, it pushes the water back upstream.

我记得马尔科姆·特恩布尔以前想推这个项目，应该是在雪山那边吧。

Malcolm Turnbull was trying to get this going, I think, in the well, actually, might snow be going in the snowy mountains.

我不太确定。

I'm not sure.

雪山蓄能项目确实存在。

Snowy hydro is a thing.

雪域2.0。

Snowy 2.0.

对。

Yeah.

水电是有的，只不过用的是抽水蓄能的方式。

Well, the hydro is, but with a pumped hydro.

不过，咱们还是别扯太远了，免得跑题。

But, anyway, now straying into non watch that rash territory.

我懂的东西漏洞太大了。

The gaps in my knowledge are gaping.

我知道马尔科姆是听众，所以我这么说肯定要挨骂了。

I know that Malcolm's a listener, so I'll, you know, get hammered for it.

但不管怎样，肌酸的作用就是这样。

But, anyway and effectively, that's what creatine does.

什么？

What?

我体内有个氨基酸池，需要的时候它就会流进肌肉里。

I've got an amino acid lake, and it flows down into my muscles when I need it.

差不多吧。

Kind of.

关键的酶叫肌酸激酶，身体里有好几种形式。

And the sec the secret enzyme is called creatine kinase, of which there are various forms in the body.

大脑和其他身体部位都有各自对应的肌酸激酶。

There's creatine kinase for the brain and various other parts of the body.

但肌酸激酶的作用是，身体最核心的能量物质叫ATP。

But what creatine kinase does is the core energy compound in the body is called ATP.

对。

Yes.

当你不需要ATP的时候，肌酸激酶就会把ATP里的磷酸基团拿走。

And when you don't need the ATP, creatine kinase will take the phosphorus from the ATP.

ATP里的那个P，指的就是磷酸基团。

That's what the p part is of the ATP.

我们会把磷酸基团加到肌酸上。

We'll take the phosphorus and attach it to creatine.

这样就变成了磷酸肌酸。

So it becomes phosphocreatine.

然后这个过程会让ATP变成ADP，就像山顶上的蓄水池一样储存能量。

And then that turns the ATP into ADP, which is like the storage tank, the storage lake at the top of the hill.

当你需要能量时，磷酸就会从肌酸上脱离，重新加到ADP上，重新变回ATP，随时供能使用。

And then when you need energy, the phosphate is taken off the creatine, put back into the ADP, and it becomes ATP ready for energy.

所以，这本质上就是他们说的能量缓冲系统。

So, essentially, it's what they call an energy buffer.

磷酸肌酸能吸收并储存能量，在需要爆发力或其他情况时快速释放出来。

So phosphocreatine absorbs the energy store and makes it available when it's needed for either bursts of energy or whatever.

这个过程不仅发生在肌肉里，也发生在身体其他组织中。

And that happens in muscle, and it happens in other tissues as well.

不过，身体大部分的肌酸都储存在肌肉里，这也很合理，毕竟肌肉是耗能大户。

Most of the body's creatine pool is in the muscle, though, and that makes sense because they're big organs that require a lot of energy.

过去我们在《这是什么皮疹？》节目中聊过很多关于肌酸的话题，

And a lot of our discussion about creatine in the past on What's That Rash?

而且总的来说，讨论大多集中在肌肉上。

And also just kind of in general has focused on muscles.

所以人们补充肌酸，通常是像健美运动员或者运动员这类人群。

So supplementing it if you're, like, a bodybuilder or some kind of athlete.

我们在之前的运动前补充剂那一期稍微提过这一点。

We did touch on that a little bit in the pre workout episode.

今天我不想在这上面花太多时间，但至少要说明一下，过去大家觉得补充肌酸主要是为了这个目的。

I didn't wanna spend too much time on that today, but just to kind of acknowledge that that's how it's been viewed in the past as, like, maybe why you'd wanna supplement with it.

但最近一两年，甚至更短的时间内，肌酸似乎开始被看作有超越肌肉之外的其他神奇功效，比如和我们收到的关于大脑功能、围绝经期等问题相关的那些用途。

But it feels like in the last couple of years, year or two, maybe less, that it's gotten a real reputation as perhaps having other superpowers beyond muscles, which relate to the questions that we've gotten around brain function and perimenopause and all of those sorts of things as well.

是的。

Yeah.

正如我所说，大脑中确实存在一种叫肌酸激酶的酶，肌酸本身也能在大脑中存在。

So as I said, there is a form of this enzyme creatine kinase which exists in the brain, and creatine can exist in the brain too.

它在大脑和其他组织的能量生成过程中也起着作用。

And it's involved in energy production in the brain as well and in other tissues.

人体有些组织中肌酸激酶含量很低，但心脏里却有不少。

There are some tissues in the body where there's not a lot of creatine kinase, but there is in the heart.

精子里也有，因为精子需要它。

There's in sperm where they need sperm.

它们得摆动自己的小尾巴。

Gotta wiggle their little tiles.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的，一旦要行动起来，就得立刻动起来，这时候就得靠肌酸激酶来提供能量。

You know, when they gotta get into action, they've gotta get into action, and you just need that creatine kinase to get there to do it.

因此，它可能对缓解抑郁、改善认知功能等方面有帮助。

So it's been implicated to be able to help depression, cognitive function, and so on.

所以这并不是天方夜谭，毕竟它确实参与大脑的能量代谢。

So it's not it's not a mad idea because it is involved in energy production in the brain.

问题是，虽然关于肌酸的研究有成千上万篇，但大多数都集中在肌肉的能量代谢上。

The problem with all this stuff is that whilst there are thousands of studies into creatine, they are mostly actually in energy production in muscles.

关于脑雾、更年期症状、围绝经期症状和抑郁的研究，样本都很小，方法上也有很多缺陷，根本不足以作为可靠依据。

The quality of the research into foggy brain, menopausal symptoms, perimenopausal symptoms, depression are small studies full of flaws that you really just can't hang your hat on?

咱们不妨一个个来看，我想把这个问题拆开说清楚。

Well, let's look at them kinda one by one because I'd like to unpack this.

我觉得，这取决于你是谁，现在处于人生的哪个阶段。在当今世界，我们常常觉得，自己看到的永远只有某一方面的信息。

I think depending on who you are and what phase of life you're in at the moment, we live in a world where we are either seeing nothing about something, always it feels like that's all we're seeing.

我准备这期节目时，诺曼，你以前也帮我准备过。

And so when I was prepping for this episode, Norman Oh, you used to prep for it.

是的。

Yeah.

你看看我。

Look at me.

我跟一个朋友提到我们要聊肌酸，他四十多岁，特别爱运动，一听就惊了。

So I mentioned to a mate that we were gonna do creatine, and this is someone who's in their forties, very athletic, and they were like, oh my gosh.

肌酸。

Creatine.

我的那些女性运动员朋友都在聊这个。

Like, it's all that all of my fellow female athletes are talking about.

你得去看看这个女生的YouTube频道。

You gotta watch this woman's YouTube channel.

还有好多其他YouTuber也在讲这个。

There's a like, all these other YouTubers and stuff.

在某些圈子里，肌酸简直成了一种迷恋，尤其让我注意的是，我之前提到的那六个提问者，名字全都是女性的。

It it has a real cult following in certain areas, and I think especially and it it's telling to me that the six different question askers that I've rattled off before are all women's names.

我不确定她们是不是真的都是女性，但至少名字给人的感觉就是这样。

I don't know if they're all women, but, like, they certainly read as such.

现在这种现象在围绝经期人群中特别火爆。

And it's very much this sort of perimenopausal space that it seems to be at a fever pitch at the moment.

我想深入了解一下，这些说法到底是从哪儿冒出来的，再仔细看看目前研究里能得出的利弊。

I'm interested to kind of unpack perhaps where these concepts maybe started and just sort of drill down into what the pros and cons are that we've able to surmise from the research so far.

这个说法是怎么来的？怎么突然觉得肌酸不只是增肌的补剂了？

Where did this idea of creatine being, like, more than just a muscle supplement start?

很难说清楚它到底是从哪儿开始的。

It's hard to know exactly where it started.

运动员说他们服用后感觉精力更充沛了。

So athletes taking the drug say they've

这算是一种药物吗？

Is it a drug?

从补充剂的角度看，它确实算药物。

More energy well, it is a drug when you're taking it as a supplement.

我真正想说的是，补充剂这东西，你吃的时候剂量不低，本质上就是在吃药。

That's my point actually about supplements is that you're taking them in natural doses, and you're actually taking them as a drug.

你根本不是在吃天然补剂。

You're not taking them as a natural supplement.

真正天然的摄取方式，其实是通过健康饮食，比如吃

You know, natural way to take it is actually to have a healthy meal based on the

是的。

Oh, mhmm.

或者像这样的饮食，富含肌酸。

And or diets like it, which are chock full of creatine.

把肌酸当补充剂吃是不自然的，所以你其实是在把它当药物使用。

It's unnatural to take it as a supplement, so you're taking it as a drug.

那些把肌酸当药物服用的人，比如运动员和青少年男孩，他们觉得练橄榄球时肌肉力量能提升，说感觉更有劲了。

And people who take it as a drug, so athletes, teenage boys thinking that it's gonna improve their muscle strength when they're playing rugby, say they feel more energized on it.

这种精力充沛的感觉很难量化。

Well, hard to measure that sense of energy.

我不是在否定它，但背后确实有扎实的科学依据：肌酸激酶参与大脑中的能量生成。

I'm not decrying it, but it comes from there's solid science here behind this, which is that creatine creatine kinase is involved in energy generation in the brain.

神经细胞之间的能量生成，和你主观感觉更有劲，是两回事。

Energy generation in between nerve cells is a different story from actually feeling more energy.

这两者不能直接划等号。

You can't necessarily translate those things together.

比如，有一项随机对照试验，对象是36名平均年龄约50岁的围绝经期和绝经期女性，被随机分成四组。

But, I mean, for example, a randomized controlled trial, 36 healthy perimenopausal and menopausal women, aged on average around 50, random allocation into four groups.

既然总共36人分成四组，那每组就是九个人。

So as soon as you've allocated into four groups of 36 people, there's nine people per group.

这种东西根本不可能作为药物获批。

You would not register a drug.

真正靠谱的临床试验，人数得是这个的十倍、十五倍，设计也得更严谨。

It would be ten, fifteen times that number of people in a much larger trial, better designed.

我觉得你提到的这个研究，可能是看起来最靠谱的一个。

I mean, this is the one that I think you're talking about is one of the ones that looks kind of the most credible at first blush.

它确实也得到了大量媒体报道。

It's certainly one that's gotten a lot of media coverage.

但有一点很重要，第一作者其实存在明显的利益冲突。

One thing that's important to call out is that the lead author is actually seems to have some pretty important conflicts of interest.

他是关于肌酸在健康与医学领域科学顾问委员会的成员，还共同拥有两项关于液态肌酸补充剂的专利，一项在欧洲专利局，另一项也是，同时还是一家开发富含肌酸食品公司的联合创始人。

They're the member of the scientific advisory board on creatine in health and medicine, and they co own a patent supplements based on liquid creatine in the European patent office and another patent as well and and is a cofounder of a company which develops food products enriched with creatine.

所以，我不是质疑研究结果本身，但这个人显然有动机希望证明肌酸有效。

So, I mean, no shade on the results itself, but definitely someone with a vested interest in finding that creatine's useful.

还有一项关于肌酸补充对绝经期女性身体成分、认知、雌激素水平和睡眠影响的研究，只用了15名女性。

So then there's another study on creatine supplementation on menopausal women's body composition, their thinking, estrogen strength, sleep, 15 women,

持续了十四周。

fourteen week study.

你知道吧？

You know?

时间太短了。

Very short.

尤其是对于

And especially for

样本量这么小的研究。

something small.

你得明白，人体本身就有自然波动。我再提一点临床试验设计的关键，理性思考者必须留意：我们可能会说，这是一项研究，它显示出了差异。

You just natural natural vary I mean, just two seconds on clinical trial design that that watch that rationalist need to know about is, we might say, well, it's a it's a study and it shows a difference.

一个可靠的临床试验，关键是样本量得足够大，才能把自然波动排除掉。

The thing about a reliable clinical trial is that the sample has got to be large enough that you can eliminate natural variation.

如果你研究的是女性、男性，或者任何有常见症状的人群，比如睡眠问题、肌肉力量——这些都很难精确测量，虽然你能感觉到差别，但要量化就不容易了，而且本身就有很大的自然波动。

So if you take women or men or anybody with common symptoms and such as sleep disturbance, muscle strength, you know, things that are hard to measure, muscle strength, cognitive ability, they're they're that that's not that hard to sense, but to measure, but there are there's natural variation on this.

只有15个女性参与的试验，自然波动会完全盖过药物本身的效果。

With 15 women in the study, natural variation will swamp the effects of the drug.

你得有几百名女性参与才行。

You've gotta have hundreds of women.

我知道这很麻烦，但你必须有几百人，最好是上千人，才能摆脱日常生活中的噪音，而这项研究根本没做到这一点。

I know it's inconvenient, but you gotta have hundreds, if not thousands of women to get beyond the noise of daily life, and this study would not have done that.

这类研究不仅耗时，成本也高得多。

Those studies are expensive as well, they take a long time.

这正是大家常提出的批评。

That's the common criticism.

只有制药公司才有钱做这种研究，所以政府资助机构必须介入 funding。

It's only the pharmaceutical industry that has the money to do this, which means that government funding agencies need to fund it.

但政府资助机构也有自己的优先事项，他们会问：肌酸的效果够明显吗？值得我们投钱吗？

But then the government funding agencies have priorities, and they say, well, is the signal strong enough with Creatine that we should do it?

那我给你说说，我为什么根本不会碰肌酸补充剂？

So do you want me to give you the reason why I wouldn't go near Creatine supplements?

是的。

Yeah.

补充剂这事儿吧，你可能会想，嗯，看起来没啥大问题，但到底有什么风险呢？

Like, I guess it's the thing with supplementation where you can sort of go, well, okay, but, like, what's the downside?

但确实有风险。

But there is a downside.

当然有。

There sure is.

而且这风险是癌症。

And it's cancer.

哦，原来如此。

Oh, okay.

信息有些矛盾，但足够让我决定：如果我要补充肌酸，那就从食物里摄取。

And it's conflicting information, but it's enough to say, well, if I wanna get my creatine, I'm gonna get it from food.

在肌酸领域，有人声称肌酸能抑制癌细胞扩散。

And so people have said in the creatine space that creatine prevents the spread of cancer.

其实并不是肌酸本身。

It's actually not creatine.

真正起作用的是另一种叫环状肌酸的物质。

It's a form of creatine called cyclocreatine.

肌酸本身反而与乳腺癌扩散，以及胶质母细胞瘤这类恶性脑癌的扩散有关。

Creatine itself is associated with breast cancer spread and possibly spread of glioblastoma, malignant brain cancer.

它不是直接致病，但似乎会促进癌细胞扩散。

So it's not causative, but it seems to facilitate the spread.

为什么会这样？

How?

是因为它提供了能量，让癌细胞更有活力吗？

Is it because it's an energy that's energizing itself?

我知道原因，可能就是因为这东西给肿瘤提供了能量。

Know why, but that's probably why, is that it fuels the tumor.

但这里面其实藏着一个治疗的思路：如果你能阻断这个效应，就有可能治疗癌症，或者降低它扩散的可能性，这就是环肌酸的用处——它能干扰身体正常的能量循环，从而阻断这一过程，或许还能作为癌症治疗的辅助手段来抑制癌细胞扩散。

Now in buried in that is actually something that's therapeutic, because if you can block that effect, you can possibly treat the cancer or make it less likely to spread, which is where this version of creatine called cyclocreatine comes in because it actually gets in the way of the natural energy cycle and blocks that, and it may be associated with preventing cancer spread as an addition to cancer therapy.

这背后的故事复杂得不得了。

It's an incredibly complicated story.

但对我个人来说，吃肌酸只是为了多一点能量，不管这效果是真实的还是心理作用，至少肌肉方面的说法我们是知道的。

But just for me, taking creatine to get a little bit of extra energy whether that's real or imagined, We know the muscle stories.

肌肉增长的说法可能是真的，不过所谓的肌肉变壮，更多是因为水分被肌肉吸收，而不是真的长了更多肌纤维；但确实有证据表明，补充肌酸能让肌肉产生更多能量。

The muscle story might be real that you're getting I mean, the muscle bulk probably comes from the absorption of water into the muscles rather than true muscle bulk, but there is some evidence that you get a bit more energy out of your muscles by taking creatine.

如果效果真那么强，奥委会早就禁用它了。

If it was really strong, the Olympic Committee would have banned it.

但它的效果又很难准确测量，这也是肌酸的另一个问题。

But the but it's hard to measure as well, so that's the other thing with creatine.

那问题来了，既然有这种风险，你为什么还要吃它呢？

The issue here is why would you take it if there's this risk here?

这确实是个很值得未来几年深入研究的问题。

That is a really interesting thing that we'll have to look at in years to come.

另外，也值得提一下 creatine 在某些人身上带来的其他不太严重但依然不容忽视的副作用。

And I suppose it's also worth calling out some of the other, you know, less worrying but still serious side effects of creatine in certain people.

如果你本身有肾脏损伤或肾病，补充 creatine 可能会有风险。

Supplementation, if you've got, say, kidney damage or kidney disease, it can be dangerous for you.

有些人反映会出现肌肉抽筋或肠胃不适，这些也可能是 creatine 引起的。

And, I mean, some people report muscle cramps and gastro upset, which could be the creatine.

肠胃问题说不定是粉末里其他成分造成的，但这一点还是得留意。

I think with gastro stuff, maybe it could be the other things that are in your powder, but just worth keeping in mind.

Norman，你想啊，那些一直用 creatine、觉得特别有效的人，听到这些可能会想：‘呃，那我是不是要得癌症了？’

The thing with the creatine, think, Norman, is that people who have taken it and love it might be listening to this and being like, well, a, excuse me, and b, am I gonna get cancer now?

我说的是我自己的情况，不是你。如果你觉得它对你有帮助，那该用还是用。

Well, look, I'm talking about me, not you, and what I would do if you're finding you're getting benefit from it.

关于运动员和健身人群的大规模研究已经很多了，这些研究并没有显示明显的风险。

I mean, the big studies in athletes and we're using it for muscles, those are where there are big studies, don't show much risk.

所以，关于肌酸可能促进癌症或扩散的理论，目前还只停留在实验室和试管阶段。

So the theoretical idea that it might actually nurture cancer or its cancer spread are still in the lab and in the test tube.

对我来说，这已经足够让我避开了，但你倒是能接受。

For me, it's enough to put me off, but you're fine with it.

你接受就行。

Be fine with it.

你开心就好，宝贝。

You do you, boo.

对。

Yep.

我们收到的一个问题特别提到了阿尔茨海默病。

And, I mean, one of the questions we got was specifically about Alzheimer's.

这是个关于大脑功能的非常具体的问题。

That's a very particular kind of question about brain function.

我们目前知道些什么？

What do we know?

我们有一项研究，是关于八周的肌酸一水合物，这是最常见的类型。

Well, we've got one study that was an eight an eight week study of creatine monohydrate, which is the commonest.

顺便说一下，我前面提到的环状肌酸并不在任何补充剂里，你绝对不该在饮食里吃环状肌酸。

By the way, the cyclocreatine that I mentioned earlier is not in a supplement, and you would definitely not wanna take cycloc creatine in a diet.

那为什么呢？

But Why is that?

因为它是阻断肌酸通路的，而你的身体其实需要这个通路。

Well, because it blocks the creatine pathway, and you need your creatine pathway.

所以你可能在癌症治疗的临床试验里用它，但这种情况不适合。

So you might take it as part of cancer therapy in a trial, but not in this situation.

肌酸一水合物是最常见的补充剂之一。

So creatine monohydrate is one of the commonest supplements.

他们对阿尔茨海默病患者做了一个为期八周的试验。

So they did an eight week trial in people with Alzheimer's disease.

同样是小规模试验，每天二十克，持续八周，但不是双盲对照研究。

Again, a small trial, twenty grams a day, eight weeks, but it wasn't a double blind controlled study.

但这个试验时间太短了，毕竟阿尔茨海默病是长期的疾病。

So And that's a very short trial for something that's such a long term disease.

是的。

Yep.

他们观察到了一些改善。

So they noticed improvements.

这听起来不错，但我们需要更大规模、双盲对照的研究才行。

Well, I would say that's nice, but need something a bit bigger than that that's double blind.

这确实让人有点泄气。

It's a bit demoralizing.

当你听到这类消息时，总觉得哪里不对劲——我知道那句老话，听起来太美好，往往就不可信。

I think when you hear stories like this and it sounds like it's, I know the whole, like, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

我明白你的意思。

Like, I get that.

但如果你正在为患有阿尔茨海默病的父母寻找帮助，或者因为围绝经期感到脑子昏沉，这种东西确实很容易让人动心。

But I think if you're looking around for something for your parent with Alzheimer's or you're feeling brain foggy because you're in perimenopause, like, it's very tempting to go for something like this.

感觉风险低，回报却很高。

It feels low risk, high reward.

如果你了解其中的风险，再听听《Watch That Rash》的提醒，但顺便说一句，目前还没有人对乳腺癌、胶质母细胞瘤或其他癌症的相关风险做过量化评估。

Well, if you understand the risks and you listen to Watch That Rash nobody has quantified, by the way, the risks attached to breast cancer or glioblastoma or other forms of cancer.

所以这还只是理论上的。

So it's theoretical.

目前只在动物实验中出现过。

It's in animal studies.

也只在实验室研究里看到过。

It's in laboratory studies.

但无论如何，这些迹象是存在的。

But nonetheless, that's there.

如果你正在应对阿尔茨海默病，想试试看，这大概就是最大的风险了。

And if you're dealing with something like Alzheimer's disease and you wanna try it out, that's probably the main downside.

如果你已经得了阿尔茨海默病，二十年后会不会得癌症，恐怕根本不是你最该担心的事。

And if you've got Alzheimer's disease, getting cancer in twenty years time is probably the least of your worries.

天哪。

Goodness.

诺曼，这真是个乏味的收尾之夜。

What a what a dull night to end on, Norman.

你不妨试试看。

Well, you know, try it out.

再说一遍，我不是建议你这么做，但对于阿尔茨海默病患者来说，这种副作用的风险其实很低，因为你已经接近生命末期，而癌症需要很长时间才会发展。

I mean, again, not recommending it, but you the risk in somebody with Alzheimer's of that side effect is low because you're already towards the end of life, and cancer takes a while to develop.

明白了。

Okay.

那我们就先不补充肌酸了。

So let's say we don't wanna supplement with creatine.

诺曼，你可真是给肌酸泼了一盆冷水。

You've really poured a whole lot of cold water on that, Norman.

但你说它对身体功能运作确实很重要。

But you say it is important for the way our body functions.

其实通过饮食也能摄取到。

It is possible to get it from our diet.

那我们应该怎么优先安排呢？

How do we prioritize that?

具体该怎么从饮食里获取呢？

How do we get it from our diet?

只要吃均衡的饮食，尤其是高质量的蛋白质，就能获得，因为肌酸是由氨基酸合成的。

Well, a well rounded diet with high quality protein is how you get it because it's made from amino acids.

所以你需要摄入多种氨基酸，其中就包括参与肌酸合成的那些，这才是关键。

And so you want a diet that has a wide range of amino acids, and that will include the the amino acids that are involved in creatine production, and that's what you want.

所以这事儿其实并不难。

So it's not it's not a very difficult thing

不过如果你是素食者或纯素食者，可能会稍微麻烦一点。

to Maybe a bit more difficult if you're vegetarian or vegan.

我知道，坚持这类饮食的人，体内肌酸水平通常比杂食者要低。

I know that people who have those diets have lower creatine levels than people who have an omnivorous diet.

他们可能本来就有较高的肌酸储备，吃点肌酸补充剂也无妨，但我们并不建议这么做。

And they might be the people who've got a a bigger safety margin with the creatine if they take some creatine supplementations, which is we're not recommending that.

这事得跟你的全科医生或营养师好好聊聊。

Something you need to talk over your GP or dietitian.

所以对费利西蒂、黛布、贾斯敏、乔、杰玛和彼得来说，关键就是：在健康饮食中优先保证蛋白质摄入，再找医生或营养师咨询一下。

So bottom line here for Felicity, Deb, Jasmine, Joe, Gemma, and Peter is basically prioritize protein in a healthy diet, talk to your GP or your dietitian?

特别是如果你正处于围绝经期或绝经期，随着年龄增长，患乳腺癌等疾病的风险也在上升。

Particularly, if you are perimenopausal or menopausal where because of your age, you are at increasing risk of something like breast cancer.

你真的愿意吃某种东西，哪怕只是实验室研究显示可能增加这种风险吗？

And do you wanna take something that may, even if it's from lab research, increase that risk?

不愿意。

No.

非常感谢大家提交了这么多问题。

Well, thank you all so much for sending through your questions.

希望刚才的内容没有让大家太沮丧。

I hope this hasn't been too much of a downer for you.

我们要是真这么做，能赚多少钱，我是说——

The the money you and I would make if we be just Well, the

我觉得，诺曼，更该想的是我们帮别人省下的钱。

money we're saving people, I think, Norman, is a good way of thinking of it.

你尽管说。

Feel free.

你懂我意思吧。

You you know what I'm saying.

如果我们完全不顾道德，就可以随便应付复杂的问题，搞些粗糙的解决方案。

If if we had no morality, we could just type sort of crappy solutions for complicated problems.

那确实是理想状态。

That's the dream.

也许有一天吧。

Maybe one day.

但眼下，我们还得坚守伦理，保持道德，做这些无聊但重要的事。

But for now, we're here being ethical and moral and all that boring stuff.

我们很喜欢回答大家的问题。

We love answering your questions.

你们可以发邮件到 rash@abc.net.au 找我们。

That rash@abc.net.au is our email address.

反馈和意见也欢迎发到这个邮箱。

It's also where you can send your feedback and notes to us.

还有西奥班，她是《梦境》那一期提问的听众。

And Siobhan's written in, who was our question asker for the Dreams episode.

对。

Yes.

西奥班说，被提到她特别兴奋，也觉得这个话题太有意思了。

Siobhan says, so excited to be mentioned and so fascinating.

顺便说一下，我本人很有创意，因为在艺术行业干了很多年，所以诺曼提到这点让我特别有共鸣。

By the way, I am a very creative person having spent many years in the arts industry, so Norman's mention of that was very interesting.

我丈夫最近说，他记起梦的次数变多了。

My husband says, recently, he's remembered his dreams more frequently.

她说这可能是年龄的原因。

She says must be an age thing.

我觉得更像是因为你最近一直在关注、认真听，还刻意去记梦，毕竟咱们刚聊了这么多。

I think it sounds more like you paying attention and listen like, and kind of, like, remembering them on purpose because we've been talking about it.

你觉得呢？

What do you reckon?

我不确定。

I don't know.

我一直都能记得梦，昨晚我做了一个特别奇怪的梦。

I I've always been able to remember my I had I had this really weird dream last night.

嗯，继续说。

Okay.

说下去。

Go on.

里面出现了各种各样的人，包括一个我认识的记者，结果他突然转行当了医生，还在电台免费给人看病。

So all sorts of people came into it, including somebody I know who's a journalist and then suddenly graduated in medicine and was giving free advice on the radio.

也许这就是我的风格吧。

Maybe that's just my where I roll.

然后突然间，我出现在一场橄榄球赛里，马克·巴特勒在边锋位置上，他冲过去的时候被狠狠撞了一下，接着我就醒了。

And then suddenly, I was in a rugby game, and Mark Butler was playing on the wing, And he got clobbered on the way through, and then then I woke up.

我根本不知道马克·巴特勒后来怎么样了。

So I had no idea what happened to Mark Butler.

你今天早上有没有给马克·巴特勒发消息，说他昨晚出现在你梦里了？

Did you text Mark Butler this morning and say you were in my dream last night, babe?

我不知道。

I don't know.

说不定苏珊·李在场边给你加油呢。

Maybe Susan Lee was on the sidelines cheering.

我完全没概念。

Have no idea.

不过，反正这就是昨晚做的梦。

But, anyway, that was last night's dream.

非常感谢你，西奥班，提供了这么宝贵的反馈。

But thanks very much, Siobhan, for tech for giving us that feedback.

我站在你老公那边。

I'm on I'm on your husband's side.

还有一件事我得提一下，这可是个重要的提醒：你之前在关于童年夜惊的那期节目里提到，成年后你终于弄清楚了那个梦的由来。

So the other thing I have to mention here, this is like a very important point of housekeeping, is that you mentioned in our dreamed episode about the night terror that you had when you were a wee boy that you discovered as an adult where the impetus for that came from.

我当时打断了你，让大家如果还记得你跟我说过那件事的源头，就给我们发邮件，答对的人能拿到一个冰箱贴，哦，就是那个印着你名字的冰箱贴。

And I stopped you from finishing your story and told people if they if they remembered you telling me about what that was from back in the day to email us with the answer and that we would get a fridge magnet and oh, what's that rash branded fridge magnet out to you?

真的太感谢了。

Well, thank you so much.

已经有不少人准确回忆起你当时说的细节，并寄来了答案。

We have had quite a few people correctly remember your prices in the mail.

诺曼，如果你愿意的话，能跟大家说说你夜惊的起源吗？

But, Norman, if you could please reveal your Night Terror origin story.

那是因为小时候我看了《爱丽丝梦游仙境》，特别是后面那段，爱丽丝被人追着跑的场景。

It was from watching Alice in Wonderland as a child, and it's the late scenes in Alice in Wonderland where she's being chased.

后来我看到孩子看《爱丽丝梦游仙境》时，才明白那个画面原来是来自那里。

And you realized when your kids were watching Alice in Wonderland that that was where the picture had come from.

那种感觉就像一列火车直接撞了过来。

It was it was like a train hitting me.

太惊人了。

Was amazing.

我们还收到一些关于梦境那期节目的反馈。

We also had some more correspondence about our dreams episode.

布雷特说，他养成了下午在草坪上小睡的习惯。

Brett says, I've gotten into the habit of taking a nap in the afternoon on my lawn.

但因为我常喂当地的喜鹊，它们经常会啄醒我，向我要吃的，要么啄我的脚，要么拽我的头发。

However, because I feed the local magpies, they'll often wake me up and demand food, which they do by pecking my feet or pulling my hair.

很多时候，这都会把我从REM睡眠中拽出来，醒来时我还清楚记得自己在做梦，只是梦很快就消散了。

Often, this seems to drag me out of a REM sleep cycle as I awake conscious of having been dreaming, though the dream soon evaporates.

我真佩服布雷特的勇气，敢在草坪上睡觉，还被鸟儿袭击着叫醒。

I'm so impressed with Brett's bravery, sleeping on the lawn, being attacked by birds to wake him up.

天啊

God.

这真是太

That's very

我会害怕被蚂蚁咬。

I would be afraid of ant bites.

也许他做的是关于希区柯克的噩梦。

Well, maybe he's having nightmares about Alfred Hitchcock.

反正我肯定会。

I mean, I would be.

还有来自金的另一条消息，她说：我今天的好奇心源于我对你们节目片尾音乐的热爱。

And then one more message from Kim who says, my curiosity today comes from my love of your, as in our, closing titles music.

每次听到这段音乐，我都会在座位上忍不住轻轻跳舞，我超级超级喜欢你们节目结尾的那段小旋律。

I find myself doing a little dance in my seat when I listen to it, and I love love love the little tune you have at the end of your shows.

还有其他人也会写信告诉你们，他们听到片尾音乐时也会跟着摇摆、跳舞吗？

Does anyone else write in to tell you that they vibe and do a little dance to your closing tune?

是的。

Yes.

这就是答案。

It's the answer.

Kim，很高兴你这么喜欢。

Kim, I love that you love it.

我也跟着轻轻摇摆呢。

I also dance along a little bit too.

一如既往，谢谢你加入我们。

Thank you so much for joining us as always.

我坐这儿忍不住晃来晃去，等下次再见。

I'm jiggling in my seat till I see you next

下周见。

week.

到时候见。

See you then.