埃丝特的呼唤——我害怕失去的远不止事业

你好，Esther。我的问题背景是这样的：大约十年前，我和我的商业伙伴共同创立了一家公司。在过去的十年里，这家公司发展壮大并取得了成功，期间我的两个兄弟也加入公司并被提拔到领导岗位。大约三年前，我和商业伙伴的关系恶化了。我们各自遇到了一些个人问题，影响了我们的职业关系。

Hi, Esther. The context of my question is that around ten years ago, my business partner and I established a company together. That company has grown and been successful across most of that last decades during which both of my brothers have joined and been promoted into leadership positions. Around three years ago, my relationship with my business partner deteriorated. We both had some personal issues which impacted our professional relationship.

所以我决定退后一步。我担任了非执行职务，并探索了一些非常非常令人兴奋的新机会。虽然我保留了董事职位和股份，但不再参与公司的日常运营。这种安排起初效果很好。

So I decided to take a step back. I've taken a nonexecutive role. I've explored some other really, really exciting opportunities. So whilst I retain a directorship and a shareholding, I'm no longer involved in the day to day running of the business. That arrangement worked really well.

我们遇到了一些初期困难，但第一年相当成功。然而在第二年，公司不幸开始走下坡路。我相信我们的战略是好的，但执行得很差，而且我兄弟和商业伙伴之间的关系也时有破裂。我们现在的情况是希望能出售公司，但很可能不得不关闭业务并让团队失业。这个过程让我非常挣扎。

We had some teething problems, but the first year was pretty successful. But during the second year, the company has unfortunately started to fail. I believe we've had a good strategy, but the implementation's been poor, and the relationships between my brothers and my business partner have also broken down at times. We're in a position now where we hope to sell, but we may well have to close the business and make the team redundant. And that's a process I'm really struggling with.

部分原因与我内心的旧事有关，所以我感到对家人、团队、客户和商业伙伴负有非常非常大的责任。我为没有做好本职工作以保持公司繁荣成功而感到羞愧，但同时我也深陷悲伤和愤怒之中，因为我觉得自己辜负了那些我非常关心的人。让我挣扎的是，公司之所以陷入现在的境地，是由于他们做出的决定和采取的行动。所以我真正的问题是：无论最终商业结果如何，我该如何最好地调整我的思维方式，以维护我们之间的关系——既为了我深爱并关心的家人，也为了我的商业伙伴，因为我们未来还会在职业场合继续相处？谢谢。

Some of that's about old stories in myself, so I feel very, very responsible for my family, for my team, for my clients, for my business partner. I feel ashamed that I haven't done my job well enough to keep the business thriving and successful, but I'm also struggling a lot with a lot of sadness and and some feelings of anger because I feel like I've placed trust in people who I care about very deeply. And I'm struggling with the fact that the business is now in the position it's in due to decisions and actions that they have taken. So my real question is, how can I best reframe my thinking to set up our relationships for the best, whatever the business outcome, my family because I love and care about them very deeply, and my business partner because we'll continue to know each other in a professional context? Thank you.

本节目由焦点影业及其新片《唐顿庄园：盛大终章》赞助播出。魅力、浪漫、丑闻，《唐顿庄园》回归带来最后一场难忘的盛宴。故事发生在1930年，新时代来临之际，唐顿的未来岌岌可危。玛丽小姐陷入公众丑闻，惊人的真相动摇了这个家族的根基。这不仅仅是一部电影。

Support for the show comes from Focus Features and their new film, Downton Abbey, the grand finale. Glamour, romance, scandal, Downton Abbey returns for one final unforgettable event. It's 1930, and as a new era begins, the future of Downton is at stake. Lady Mary is thrust into public scandal, and shocking revelations shake the family to its core. This isn't just a movie.

这是一个时代时刻。告别的时刻已经到来，一切皆为此而生。敬请于9月12日走进影院，在最大的银幕上观看《唐顿庄园：盛大终章》。

It's a moment. The time has come to say goodbye, and everything has led to this. See Downton Abbey, the grand finale, on the biggest screen possible only in theaters September 12.

大家好，我是Tuffy，我正在主持一档来自The Cut的新播客节目，名为

Hey. I'm Tuffy, and I'm hosting a new podcast from the cut called

塔菲谈话。

Tuffy Talks.

把我当作你的职场闺蜜，我会为你带来最劲爆的流行文化深度解析，解读名人八卦，畅聊现代生活。每周三在YouTube或你喜欢的播客平台更新节目。让我们一起愉快地逃避实际工作吧。

Think of me as your work bestie who's here to give you all the juiciest pop culture deep dives, read celebrity tea leaves, and yap about modern life. New episodes drop every Wednesday on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. It's going to be so fun avoiding actual work together.

你有什么想补充或澄清的吗？

Anything you wanna add or clarify?

是的。我发完那条语音留言后立刻想到，哦，我最后说了'我多么爱我哥哥'，而我的商业伙伴是这个人，我将来不得不一直面对他，这其实没有准确反映我们的关系。现在关系破裂了，这真的让我很难过。我不认为还有挽回的余地，但他仍然是我非常在乎的人。所以这既有职业层面的因素，但确实也存在一种个人的悲伤。嗯。

Yeah. The thing I thought as soon as I sent that voice note off and I thought, oh, I've I've ended by saying, I love my brother so much and my business partner's this guy I'm gonna have to see forever, which doesn't do justice to our relationship. The fact that it's broken down now is really sad for me. I don't necessarily think it's recoverable, but he's still someone I really care about. So there is that professional side of things, but there's definitely also a sort of personal sadness Mhmm.

关于那段关系。自从我发送语音留言后，我们四个人又进行了一次通话，那次通话相当艰难。可能是我对这个情况表现得最明显愤怒的一次。所以我觉得，哪怕只是在我们的对话语境中思考这件事，也帮助我多少触及了自己对此的情绪。除此之外，情况还是和之前一样。

About that relationship. I think since I sent the voice note in, there's been one more call between the four of us, which was quite a difficult call. It's probably the most sort of visibly angry I've ever been about the situation. So I hope possibly just even thinking about it in the context of our conversation has kind of helped me engage a little bit with my emotions around it. Other than that, the situation remains as it was.

我们可以把重点放在你身上，因为你对发生的事情有很多很多感受和想法。这当然也涉及你与每个人的关系。也许这是个很好的起点，因为这样我也能理解你与联合创始人的角色——嗯，与兄弟们的，与家人的。我似乎理解到，你为公司带来的某些特质，反映了你在家庭中扮演的某种角色。

We can focus on you because you have a lot of a lot of feelings and a lot of thoughts about what has happened. And that, of course, implies your relationship with each of these people. I think it's a good place to start maybe because I will understand also your role with your cofounder Mhmm. With your brothers, with the family. I seem to have understood that there is something that you bring to the company that mirrors a kind of role that you have had in the family.

家庭角色和工作角色之间存在某种叠加。我们可以从这里开始吗？这样合适吗？

There's a kind of a a superposition between the role at home and the role at work. So can we start there? Does that sound good?

听起来很棒。好的。是的。当然。

Sounds great. Okay. Yeah. Absolutely.

所以我会稍微听一下，好好感受这个故事。

So I'm gonna listen a little bit and just take in the story.

当然。我是家里的中间孩子，也是唯一的女孩，有两个兄弟。一切都很幸福，我觉得童年非常快乐，诸如此类，父母非常非常好。我爱我的兄弟们。我也真的很喜欢我的兄弟们。

Of course. So I'm the middle child, and I'm the only girl with two brothers. Everything was very happy, I think, sort of very happy childhood, all of those kinds of things, fantastic fantastic parents. I love my brothers. I also really like my brothers.

我会说我们是

I would say we are

作为人？

As people?

作为人。是的。作为人。如果我明天遇见他们，我会和他们成为朋友。

As people. Yeah. As people. I would I I would be friends with them if I met them tomorrow.

他们彼此是朋友吗？

Are they friends with each other?

除了工作之外几乎总是如此。我认为这确实是过去二十年来唯一阻碍我们的因素，毫无疑问就是工作。自从我们都长大成人后，我们彼此之间在各种组合下都是好朋友。他们在某些方面是相当不同的人。在其他方面，他们可能有相似之处，也许在工作中没有我在那个动态中，他们发现自己以某种方式发生冲突，而当我们一起工作时这些冲突并不那么成问题。

Almost all the time apart from work. That's I I think it's really the only thing that's that's got in the way certainly for the last twenty years has been has been work. Since we since we all became grown ups, we've all been good friends with each other in in every combination. They are quite different people in in some ways. In other ways, they've got probably similarities, which maybe at work without me in that dynamic, they found themselves clashing in ways that when we all work together weren't such an issue.

但你感到一种责任感？完全是的。请多告诉我一些。

But you feel a sense of responsibility? Completely. Yes. Tell me tell me more.

从根本上说，我认为可能有两个层面。我认为在工作中，责任最终落在我身上。我相信这一点。我是公司的董事，也是公司的所有者。

Fundamentally, I think I think maybe it's on two levels. I think at work, essentially the buck stops with me. I believe that. I'm I'm a director of the company. I'm an owner of the company.

但根本上来说，如果我的工作不是确保公司成功，那又是什么呢？如果责任不落在我身上，那又有什么意义？所以我觉得这一点非常非常真实。即使我已经退出了运营层面，这种感觉依然存在。现在的困难是我拥有的控制力远不如从前。

But fundamentally, what is my job if it's not to make sure the company is successful? If the buck doesn't stop with me, what is the point? So I think that's that feels very, very true. And that feels still true regardless of the fact that I've taken that operational step back. The difficulty now is I have far less control than I used to have.

我并不觉得责任减轻了，但感觉我能做的事情少了很多。这是不是

I don't feel less responsible, but there's feels like far less I can do about anything. Is that is that

你心中的疑问？问题在于，我是否应该回到更亲力亲为的角色，这样我就能拥有你所说的控制权，基本上就是资源和手段来真正履行我的责任？

a question that you have? The question being, should I go back to a more hands on role so that I can have what you call control is basically the resources, the means to actually execute on my responsibility?

绝对不是。我不会。为了我自己的理智，我不会回去。过去大概三到四个月里，我确实多参与了一些，因为这是必要的，但我不会回到日常工作的状态。

Absolutely not. I would. I would. I I would not, for my own sanity, I would not go back. Over the last maybe three to four months, I have been doing a little bit more because it was necessary, but I I would not go back on a day to day basis.

除了这个特定问题外，我完全热爱目前的工作生活状态。

I love my work life outside of this particular issue exactly as it is.

所以你处于这样的矛盾中：一方面我对新工作/新事业/新创业感到非常充实和兴奋，但另一方面我需要找到一种退出方式，可能通过关闭或出售，让我的新激情不会影响到其他人。

So you have a combination of I'm actually really fulfilled and excited by my new job or new career or new venture, but I need to find a way to leave and to maybe close or sell in such a way that my new excitement doesn't screw up a bunch of other people.

正是如此。我觉得这样很实际，因为我希望在非常实际的层面上处理好我们谈论的这家公司需要完成的工作。但情感上，我感到非常矛盾——我90%的生活都在筹建新公司，开展新业务，接待新客户，这一切都令人兴奋。

Exactly that. And I think that's practical because I want to do the work that needs to be done with the company that we're talking about on a very practical level. But also emotionally, I feel so conflicted that 90% of my life is we're setting up a new company. We're doing this new thing. We have these new clients, and that's so exciting.

但当我回头看时，发现我的兄弟和另一家公司的团队处境艰难。将这两者放在一起对比感觉非常残酷。所以我发现自己不再谈论某些事情，也不与他们分享快乐和兴奋，因为这感觉不合适。但确实，这种感觉就像...

And then I look back and I see my brothers and the team of the other company having a pretty awful time. And I just bringing the two together feels brutal. So I find myself not talking about certain things and and not kind of sharing the good times and the excitement with them because it doesn't feel appropriate. But then, yeah, it it feels like

一个巨大的冲突。是冲突还是背叛？

a huge conflict. Conflict or betrayal?

哦，背叛。没错，这个词很贴切。

Oh, betrayal. Yeah. That's a good word.

是的。你的意思似乎是：当他们的船正在下沉时，我在别处过得如此开心，感觉就像在背叛他们。

Yeah. I mean, that that yeah. You seem to say, I feel like I'm betraying them by having such a good time somewhere else while their ship is sinking.

是的。正是这样。

Yes. Exactly that.

但同时，我也对他们很恼火，因为船正在下沉，而它本不该下沉，因为我们之前做得非常好，基本上是他们管理不善。他们做出了错误的决定，或者他们不如我，或者到底是什么原因？

And but at the same time, I'm pissed at them that the ship is sinking because it shouldn't be sinking because we were doing really well, and, basically, they mismanaged. They they did they took bad decisions, or they're not as good as me, or what what is it?

是的。我很生气，但我不能对他们说，因为我知道他们工作非常努力，从未松懈过。但我真的很恼火，因为我觉得我坐在那里——我们每月开一次董事会，我是成员之一。我月复一月地坐在那里说，伙计们，看看这些数字。我们有问题。

Yeah. I'm I'm angry, and I can't say that to them because I know they are working so hard and have never not worked hard. But I'm really annoyed because I feel like I sat there in we we meet monthly as a board, which I sit on. And I sat there month after month saying, guys, look at the numbers. We have a problem.

我们有问题。我们有问题。而我月复一月听到的是，下个月就会好的。这是短暂的。是暂时的。

We have a problem. We have a problem. And I heard month after month, next month will be fine. It's it's short. It's temporary.

是短期的。是短期的。所以我觉得并不是我们没人预见到这一点。我们讨论过，而我允许自己一次又一次地被拖延，直到我们落到今天这步田地。甚至在我们最近一轮会议之前，我回去阅读或聆听了过去一年所有会议的记录，因为我在想，我疯了吗？

It's short term. It's short term. So I feel like it is not that none of us saw this coming. We talked about it, and I allowed myself to be put off and put off and put off until we find ourselves where we're at now. I even before our most recent set of meetings, I went back and I read or listened to all of the notes from all of the meetings for the last year because I thought, I going mad?

难道我没说过这些话吗？这对他们来说真的是个意外吗？而且它就在那里，它就是

Did I not say any of these things? Is this genuinely a surprise to them? And and it's it's just there and it's

令人愤怒。他们当时反应如何？当你提醒他们时，他们是怎么反应的？

infuriating. And what did they how was how did they react when you reminded them?

在整个过程中，他们会说，哦，当然。但那是上个月的事了。这个月不一样。现在我们已经到了一个无法否认我们所处位置的地步。我认为他们在情感上对此有着深刻的理解。

Throughout the process, they would say, oh, sure. But that was last month. This month is different. Now we've reached the point where we're at where it's it's undeniable where we are. I think there's a huge emotional understanding they all have of it.

我认为他们明白了，但这很困难，因为明白这件事在实际中能做什么呢？我想我们可能都觉得自己没有时间去处理它的情感影响，因为我们正忙于试图从船上舀水，这是我们必须要做的。

I think they get it, but it's difficult because what does getting it practically do? I suppose we all feel probably like we don't have time to to process the emotional impact of it because we're so busy trying to build water out of the ship that we just have to.

但这可能不是你让他们转移话题。也可能是在你看到问题逐渐扩大时，你心想，我不想跳进去解决它。

But it may not be that you let them kind of deflect. It may also be that while you saw the problem growing, you thought, I don't wanna have to jump in to fix it.

是的。那可能确实如此。我真的不想跳进去解决

Yes. That's that's probably true. I really did not want to jump in to fix

所以，你让他们说了他们想说的话，即使你注意到了，即使你指出了问题，即使你告诉了他们。但然后，为了让他们认识到这一点，就意味着你需要再次更多地参与进来。那么，关于你为什么退出，有什么故事吗？

So, you let them you let it you let them say what they said, even though you noticed you, even though pointed at it, even though you told them. But then, in order for them to recognize it, have meant for you to become more involved again. And is there a story about why you stepped out?

有的。这有两方面原因。一方面是有其他非常令人兴奋的事情正在发生，我收到了去建立其他事业的邀约，我对那些非常感兴趣，而且它们无法与我之前担任的角色相结合。所以那扇门在当时确实是敞开的，那时我可能已经对那家公司所做的工作有点厌倦了。所以那对我来说是一个审视那些机会的好时机。

There is. There's two sides to it. So one is there were other really exciting things happening and offers I was getting to go and and set up other things and I was really excited about those and they weren't things that could be combined with the role that I was previously doing. So that door was definitely open at a point when I was actually probably a bit bored of the sort of work that that company does. So it was it was a good moment for me to to look at those.

另一方面，从比较消极的角度来看，事实是，是的，我与我的商业伙伴的关系——曾经是非常牢固的商业关系，我甚至会说也是非常牢固的友谊——基本上已经开始破裂。那段关系对我们双方都不好。那大约是三年以前的事了。

There is on on the sort of more negative side of the piece that is the fact that, yeah, my my relationship with my business partner had having been a really strong business relationship and I would say a really strong friendship had started to break down essentially. It wasn't a good relationship for either of us. That that was about three years ago.

为什么？我的意思是，为什么一段七年来如此美好牢固的关系会突然恶化？或者

Why? I mean, why does a relationship that is so good and strong for seven years suddenly decline? Or

我认为是这样。这完全是个人的事情。当时我经历了离婚，而他几乎在同一时间经历了一次非常重大的分手。虽然我们之前能够互相弥补——当一方遇到危机或个人问题时，另一方可以介入支持——但那个时候我们俩都无力承担这个角色，可能都感受到了这种缺失。从我角度来看，我确信他也会有类似说法，但我觉得他那段时间对我的某些行为实在令人难以接受。

I think so. We it's it's all personal things, really. So I went through a divorce and he went through a a very major breakup at almost exactly the same time. Whilst when basically we'd been able to previously compensate for each other, I think if someone had a crisis or a personal issue, the other could step in at that time neither of us really could and we probably both felt that deficit. And then from my perspective, I'm sure he would want to say similar, but from my perspective, felt some of his behavior during that period towards me was just unacceptable.

他会每天给我打两三个小时电话，神志不太清醒，告诉我这个世界和我身上所有的问题。短时间内还能接受，但这种情况持续了数月，我开始觉得这对我生活造成了非常非常大的困扰。那段时期真的很艰难，后来我们没能真正沟通这件事，我觉得这段关系其实没有恢复过来。

He would, you know, he would he would call me for two or three hours a day, Not very sober, tell me everything that was wrong with the world and with me and that's fine for a while, but it went on for months and I started to find that really, really difficult of an imposition on on my life really. It was really tough and I our relationship we afterwards, we weren't really able to talk about it and I don't think the relationship recovered really.

之后你们尝试过沟通吗？我的意思是，你们现在保持礼貌性往来？还是仅仅

Have you have you tried since? I mean, are you polite? Are you just

是的。我们保持着礼貌往来。见面时也很友好。但我觉得自从他经历那件事后，我感受到的他像是完全变了一个人。比如我们在线开会时，如果讨论氛围或话题转向他不喜欢的方面，他会直接退出会议，然后一整天都不再和我们任何人说话。

Yeah. We're we're we're polite. I think we meet in person and we're friendly. I think ever since he's gone through that experience, I experience him as quite a different person. He'll do things like if we're having a meeting online and and the tone goes in a way he doesn't like or the topic turns to something he doesn't like, he he will just leave the meeting and not talk to any of us for the rest of the day, for example.

所以很难就棘手话题进行深入交流。我们工作场所也是完全远程的，不会一起在办公室相处。我们尝试过一起出去喝酒，见面时也能保持友好和专业。但开启那次对话确实非常困难。

So it's quite difficult to engage on difficult topics. We're a fully remote workplace as well, so we don't go and sit in the office together. So we we've tried we've we've gone out for drinks together and and and we are friendly and professional when we meet in person. But starting that conversation has proved really difficult.

如果我问他是什麼导致了你们关系、这段友谊和合作伙伴关系的恶化，他会怎么说？

And what would he say if I asked him what led to the deterioration of your relationship, of this friendship, of this partnership?

我认为他会承认自己的不良行为。他通常不会回避说‘是的，我表现不好’。我只是觉得当他表现不好时，他不一定会感到特别内疚或觉得需要改变。我认为他会承认这一点。我觉得他会说，而且他99%是对的。

I think he would acknowledge the bad behavior. He doesn't typically have a problem saying, yes, I behaved badly. I just think he doesn't necessarily feel particularly guilty or like he needs to change when he behaves badly. I think he would acknowledge that. I think he would say, and he would be 99% right.

他会说，你知道，她被新事物诱惑了。她对我们一起做的工作感到厌倦了。她就这样离开了我们。而我是花了一年时间逐渐离开的，并不是突然出走。

He would say, you know, she got tempted off by the new shiny thing. She was bored of the work that we were doing together. She just left us. And I left over the course of a year. I didn't walk out suddenly.

但是，你知道，我觉得他会说她她她厌倦了，被诱惑了，然后离开了。这没什么。

But, you know, I think he would say that she she she got bored, she got tempted, she left. It's fine.

所以这就是她离开的主要原因。她离开并不是因为我们的关系恶化了。

So that's the main reason she left. She didn't leave because our relationship deteriorated.

我认为他会这样理解。是的。

I think he would understand it that way. Yeah.

是的。而且这并非没有道理。

Yeah. And it's not there's truth to it.

这绝对有道理。我我个人认为，大概各占一半吧。

There there is absolutely truth to it. I I would I would say it's about fifty fifty, personally.

所以如果我没理解错，你的请求中有一点是：我如何既能做自己想做的事，又不会因为自己的意愿对他人造成影响而感到内疚？

So if I hear you well, there's something in your request that is, how do I do what I want and not feel guilty about the effect that what my wanting has on others?

是的。没错。就是就是这个问题

Yeah. Yep. That's that's This

这个描述相当准确，对吧？我的意思是，尽管公司情况不同，但基本上，如果公司发展顺利，你的负罪感就会减轻，你会说：我现在去做自己关心的事了，但我给他们留下了良好的局面，他们正在蓬勃发展。所以你看，我并不那么难受，因为他们过得很好。但现在事情进展得并不顺利，我就陷入了这种两难：既想做自己想做的事——这并非新鲜事——又希望被人喜欢。

is this is pretty accurate. Right? I mean, company nevertheless, but basically, if the company went well, then you would feel less guilty, and you would just say, I went to do what I care about now, but I left them in a good situation, and they're thriving. And so, you know, I don't feel that bad because they're doing well. But now that this this is not happening so smoothly, I sit with this duality that I wanna do what I want, and that's not new, and I wanna be liked.

是的。哦，我我是的。我我喜欢被人喜欢。

Yeah. Oh, I'm I'm yes. I I like being liked.

是的。当然。顺便说一句，我也是。这并不罕见。但想要经常做自己想做的事，同时又希望人们继续喜欢你，这是非常困难的。

Yes. Of course. So do I, by the way. It's not such an unusual thing. But it's very difficult to wanna do what you want on a regular basis and to still hope that people will continue to like you.

是的。你知道，通常这就像两种不同的现实可能需要共存。你可能想做自己想做的事，而别人也有权做出他们的反应。你有权这样做，他们也有权反应。这两件事可以并存。

Yeah. You know, usually, it's like two different realities may need to coexist. You may wanna do what you wanna do, and other people are entitled to their reactions. You're entitled to do that, and so are they. And those two things can coexist.

所以，与其希望别人接受你为何做出这样的选择，仿佛这对他们毫无影响。

So rather than wanting the other people to accept why you chose what you chose as if it has no effect on them.

这很合理。我觉得自己完全——就像我说的，我们确实遇到了一些初期问题，但对于我们第一年那种规模的转型来说，我认为这些问题是正常的。但在公司出现当前问题之前，我没有任何愧疚感，因为我认为这是一个三赢的局面。

That makes sense. I think I felt absolutely, like I say, we had some teething problems, but they were normal, I think, for the scale of transition that we were making in that first year. But until the business started to have its current problems, I felt no guilt because I thought this is a win win win.

你

You

知道吗，我可以做我想做的事。是的。其他人也可以按照他们想要的方式运营公司。我们已经准备就绪。我们是成功的。

know, I I get to do what I want to do. Yep. And everyone else gets to run the company how they want to run the company. We're set up. We are successful.

这是一家小公司。总是充满斗志，总是勇于冒险，但根本上，我们是为成功而设立的。我们有成功的记录。我一点愧疚感都没有，但现在我感到非常内疚，因为我可以继续做我想做的事，而他们却不能。

It's a small company. It's always scrappy. It's always risk taking, but fundamentally, we're set up for success. We have a track record of success. I felt no guilt at all and now I feel really guilty because I get to keep doing what I want to do and and they don't.

我们需要短暂休息一下，请继续收听，让我们看看接下来会如何发展。《我们该从何开始？》节目由Shopify赞助。创业意味着有永远做不完的事情清单，因此找到合适的工具来帮助你简化一切可能会改变生活。对数百万企业来说，这个工具就是Shopify。

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us, and let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Shopify. Starting a business means that there's a never ending to do list, so finding the right tool that can help you simplify everything can be life changing. For millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify.

Shopify是全球各地企业背后的商务平台，支撑着美国10%的电子商务，从美泰和Gymshark这样的家喻户晓的品牌到刚刚起步的品牌。他们有数百个现成模板帮助设计品牌风格，并能通过创建电子邮件和社交媒体活动让营销更轻松。最重要的是，Shopify是你的商务专家，在从库存管理到国际运输，再到处理退货等方方面面都拥有世界级的专业知识。如果你准备好销售，你就准备好了使用Shopify。你可以在你的网站上借助Shopify将你的伟大商业想法变成巨大成功。

Shopify is the commerce platform behind businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in The US, from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. They have hundreds of ready to use templates to help design your brand's style, and they can make marketing easier by creating email and social media campaigns. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. You can turn your big business idea into a big success with Shopify on your site.

你可以注册每月1美元的试用，立即开始在 shopify.com/este 上销售。请访问 shopify.com/este。Shopify.com/este。《我们该从何开始？》节目由Thrive Market赞助。

You can sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify dot com slash este. Go to shopify.com/este. Shopify.com/ester. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Thrive Market.

Thrive Market 让您随时备足您和家人茁壮成长所需的一切。您可以找到孩子们最爱的学校午餐零食、工作包里的蛋白棒，或是家中的无毒清洁用品。Thrive Market 对提供的产品精挑细选，禁止使用超过一千种成分，让您可以无忧购物，确保只买到高质量的营养食品。通过网站上的筛选功能，您还可以过滤掉人工色素、加工糖或种子油。

Thrive Market lets you stay stocked up on everything you and your family needs to thrive. You can find the kids' favorite snacks for school lunches, protein bars for your work bag, or non toxic cleaning supplies for the home. And Thrive Market is discerning with products they offer. With over a thousand restricted ingredients, you can shop without worry, knowing you're only getting high quality nutritious groceries. And with their on-site filters, you can filter out artificial dyes, processed sugar or seed oils.

我自己也从 Thrive Market 订购过，这个月我买了一些 Unreal 黑巧克力椰子棒，这些是不含任何人工甜味剂的完美小甜点。然后我还订购了 Endangered Species 公平贸易海盐杏仁黑巧克力，因为我超爱巧克力。您可以访问 thrivemarket.com/begin，首次订单可享 30% 折扣，并获得一份价值 60 美元的免费礼物。《Where Should We Begin?》节目由 NPR 的 Life Kit 赞助播出。

I've ordered from Thrive Market myself, and this month, I got some Unreal dark chocolate coconut bars, which are perfect little sweet treats that are made without any artificial sweeteners. And then I ordered Endangered Species Fair Trade dark chocolate with sea salt and almonds because I love my chocolates. You can go to thrivemarket.com slash begin to get 30% off your first order and a free $60 gift. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from NPR's Life Kit.

生活没有说明书，反而更像是一场无休止的矛盾建议流，偶尔还夹杂着斥责。当涉及到健身、职业、育儿或只是在这个世界上保持理智时，很难分辨谁是对的，谁是在胡说八道。Life Kit 不仅仅是另一个自我提升播客，它是一个充满真实故事、相关见解和清晰要点的节目，帮助您在决策时刻充满信心和清晰度。

Life doesn't come with a manual. Instead, it's more like an endless stream of contradictory advice and occasional scolding. And when it comes to fitness or career or parenting or just staying sane in this world, it's hard to know who's right and who's full of it. Well, Life Kit is not just another self improvement podcast. It's a show with real stories, relevant insights, and clear takeaways to help you through those decision making moments with confidence and clarity.

您将听到关于财务、职业、育儿和人际关系等话题的对话和现实建议，如果您在收听这个节目，可能已经对这些感兴趣。无论您处于人生的哪个阶段，无论是刚刚起步还是步入晚年，我们都需要一点帮助来成为最好的自己。Life Kit 旨在帮助您制定有意义、可持续的改变策略，它来自 NPR。立即收听 NPR 的 Life Kit 播客。那么，既然我认为这不是您生活中第一次遇到这种冲突，我想问，您之前是如何处理的？

You'll hear conversations and real world advice on things like finance, career, parenting and relationships, things you might already be interested in if you're listening to this show. No matter where you are in your life, whether you're just starting out or you're in your twilight years, we all need a little help being our best selves. Life Kit seeks to help you develop strategies for meaningful, sustainable change, and it comes from NPR. Listen now to the Life Kit podcast from NPR. So, since I don't think this is the first time you have this conflict in life, I would say, how have you dealt with it at other times?

您有哪些方法来整合这种张力？

What have been ways that you have been able to integrate this tension?

是的。我首先想到的例子完全来自我的个人生活，可能是我离婚的时候。我的前夫不想离，但我想。我以前从未做过这样的类比，但这完全说得通。你知道，基本上我当时想，没有我，这婚你也结不成。

Yeah. The example that springs to my mind first, which is completely in my personal life, but is is probably when I did get divorced. My ex husband didn't want to, I did. And I never drawn this equivalent before at all, but it makes complete sense. And, you know, essentially, I was like, well, you can't stay married without me.

所以我就走了。

So so off I go.

你的前夫和你的联合创始人有着相似的想法和感受？尽管现实完全不同？

And your ex husband had similar thoughts and feelings as your cofounder? Even though totally different reality?

我觉得我的前夫只是真的很困惑。

I think my ex husband was just really confused.

措手不及。是的。是的。

Blindsided. Yeah. Yeah.

没错。同样地，我想他会承认自己有些行为不当，但会说，你知道，从根本上说，你确实是去寻找新事物了，不是吗？是的。

Exactly. And likewise, think would acknowledge that there are ways in which he behaved badly, but would say, you know, fundamentally, you went off to find something new, didn't you? Yes.

你感到无聊了，就去追求下一个光鲜亮丽的东西了。

You were bored and you went to the next shiny thing.

一样。是的。完全一样。是的。那么我是怎么，我想问，我是怎么应对那个的？

Same. Yeah. Exactly the same. Yeah. So how did I, I suppose, how did I navigate that?

首先，下一个光鲜亮丽的东西确实很好。所以你可以沉浸其中。那可能不是世界上最健康的机制，但但基本上，去做那件事，新的光鲜事物很棒。但除此之外，我想我有点把它看作——再次说明，这样表述有点戏剧化——但有点像生来孤独，死也孤独。从根本上说，有时候你必须做出对自己正确的决定，你无法承担所有人的重量。

Firstly, the next shiny thing is really good. So you can lose yourself in that. That's probably not the not the healthiest mechanism in the world, but but fundamentally going off to do that, new shiny things are great. But otherwise, I suppose I sort of I sort of looked at it as a again, it's a slightly dramatic way to put it, but it's like sort of like born alone and you die alone. And fundamentally, sometimes you have to make the decisions that are right for you and you cannot carry everyone else's weight.

你有没有

Did you

因为伤害了他而感到难过？

feel bad for hurting him?

是的。好吧。是的，当然。我感觉糟透了。

Yes. Okay. Yes, of course. I felt horrible.

没关系，你知道，这两者也可以共存。我要离开了。我已经下定决心了。我不想待在这里，而且我对伤害你、离开你、在某种意义上背叛你感到非常抱歉。再次，我希望你一切安好，因为如果你过得好，这会减轻我的内疚、负担和责任。

It's okay, you know, it's those two can coexist too. I am gonna leave. I've made up my mind. I don't wanna be here, and I feel really bad about hurting you, leaving you, in some sense, betraying you. And again, I hope you will be well because if you are well, it lessens the guilt, the burden, the responsibility.

但重要的是，能够在做决定的同时，继续保持对他人对你决定反应的共情和意识。有时候，为了做我们想做的事，我们会切断自己对他人影响的感知，这样我们才能保持动力，坚持到底并执行决定。就好像如果我们真的侧目一看，看到它对别人的影响，我们就不会有勇气、力量或信心去真正完成它。

But it's an important thing to be able to continue to have empathy and awareness of the reactions that people have about your decisions while at the same time making your decisions. What sometimes happens is that in the name of wanting to do what we want, we cut ourselves off of how it affects others so that we can maintain our oomph, so we can stay the course and proceed with the decision. As if if we actually looked to the side for a moment and saw what effect it has on others, we won't have the guts or the strength or the confidence to actually pull through with it.

是的。我完全能理解。我很擅长一旦做出决定，就像这两件事一样，所以当我和我丈夫分手时，以及现在考虑重返日常业务时，我都能明确知道这两者对我绝对是行不通的。我想是因为我不会被诱惑回去重新审视我的决定之类的事情。我希望我能够正视那些其他情绪，然后说，好吧，我无论如何都要这么做，但我仍然保持所有这些意识。

Yeah. I can completely see it. I'm quite good at once a a decision's made, as in both cases, so when my husband and I broke up and with the business now about thinking about going back into that to that day to day, I can just tell that that both are just an absolute no for me. I think because I don't get sort of tempted back to revisit my decision and that kind of thing. I hope I am able to sort of look those other emotions in the face and go, okay, I m going to do this anyway, but I still have all of this awareness.

我想我现在面临的困难以及与那些情况的不同之处在于，你知道，我每年在两次婚礼和一次洗礼上见到我的前夫，其他时间不见。而在这个位置上我必须非常小心，因为这是我的整个家庭。如果我没有处理好这件事，受影响的是我的整个家庭。对吧。

I suppose the difficulty I think that I'm facing now and the difference with those scenarios is, you know, I see my ex husband at two weddings and a christening every year and not the rest of the time. Whereas I have to be so careful in this position because this is my whole family. If I don't get this right, it's my whole family. Right.

所以这就是这次的利害关系。是的。你不能有一种让他们彻底离开你生活的告别。这次离开是部分离开，你哥哥会继续留在你生活中。你的联合创始人可能情况不同。

So that's that's the stakes this time. Yeah. Is that you can't have a leaving that basically has these people exit your life. This leaving is a partial leaving and your brother stay in your life. Your cofounder is maybe a different story.

那么你和你兄弟们之间的对话是怎样的？

So what's the conversation between you and your brothers?

我认为大约三个月前有一个真正的转折点，在那之前我们总是讨论如何拯救业务、如何改变现状。在某种程度上，我们从未真正允许失败的可能性，也没有真正讨论过它。但大约三个月前，我们四个人开了一次会，我们说：看，这就是我们现在的处境，我们必须以这些 terms 来讨论它，因为如果不这样做，我们将会让客户和团队大失所望，陷入一场毫无计划的灾难。我们必须为此做好计划。那是一次非常好的对话。

I think there was a real breaking point turning point rather about three months ago, something like that, where I think we'd always spoken in terms of, you know, how can we save the business, what can we do to change things? In a way we'd sort of never really allowed for the idea of failure, but not really discussed it. And we were able to have a meeting between the four of us, as I say, about three months ago where we just said, look, this is the position that we're in and we have to talk about it in these terms now because if not, what we're going to do is enormously let down our clients and our team by heading into a catastrophe with which is unplanned. We have to plan for it. That was a really good conversation.

谁主导的？是我推动了转变，因为我基本上说：看，我不能再这样下去了。如果我们不能直面这个事实，我无法继续这样的对话。一旦我们跨过那个坎，每个人都出色地参与了对话。但这就是你所说的，他们当时是什么态度？

Who led it? I did the pivot because I essentially said, look, I can't do this. If if we can't look this truth in the face, I can't have this conversation anymore. And once we turned that corner, everyone engaged fantastically in that conversation. But this is what you said and where were they?

我的一个兄弟之前觉得考虑这种可能性非常非常困难。他会非常明确地说：看，我不能想失败的事，因为如果我想了，我就会崩溃。我无法保持那种心态，所以我就是不能面对它。这就是他的状态。而我另一个兄弟可能更倾向于直面问题作为防范，他采取这种方式，所以可能他对这件事考虑得更消极一些。

One of my brothers had found it really, really difficult to consider the possibility previously. He would very explicitly say, look, can't think about failure because if I think about that then I will just fall off a cliff. I cannot be in the mindset for that so I just can't look at it. That's where he was and then my other brother who's maybe, I don know, a little bit more of a sort of he likes to look a problem in the face as a guard against it. He takes that approach so maybe he s considered a bit more negative about it.

我觉得他过渡起来相对容易一些。所以他们来自两个相当不同的立场，但我认为现在我们至少三个人之间比过去一年更加一致了。

I think he found it a sort of easier transition to go through. So they came from two quite different places, but I think we're now more aligned than we have been for a year between the three of us at least.

有趣的是，当你有家族企业时，你会用家庭关系来称呼这些人：我的兄弟们，我的大哥，我的二哥。如果不是家族企业，你会说我的运营人员、财务人员、市场人员，他们会按角色而不是家庭关系来识别。是的。

It's interesting that when you have a kind of a family business, you name the people by their family tie. My brothers. My brother one, my brother two. If you were not a family business, you would be saying my operation person, my finance person, my marketing person, they would be identified by their role, not just by their family tie. Yeah.

那会改变你的看法吗？是的。

Would that change it for you? Yes.

因为我认为，如果我使用那种语言，我可能会发现无论对内还是对外，以专业方式要求他们负责都会更容易。而我可能做得不够，没有以那种方式充分追究责任，因此我们陷入了比原本更糟的境地。但我觉得，由于过于个人化，我可能没有做到我本可以做到的最佳专业表现。

Because I think if I used that language I would find it easier probably both inwardly and outwardly to hold them to account in a professional way. Whereas probably what I've done is not held them to account sufficiently in that way and therefore we find ourselves in a worse position than we would have been. But I think by by keeping it too personal, I probably haven't done the best professional job I could do.

你之前就知道这一点，还是这是新的见解？我我倾向于同意你的看法。

You have known that or this is new insight? I I tend to agree with you.

我之前就想过，在问责方面我应该做得更好。这是我感到尴尬和羞愧的事情之一。但我从未将其与语言联系起来。这对我来说是一个全新的见解，而且完全说得通。

I thought before that I should have done a better job around accountability. It's it's one of the things that I feel embarrassed about, ashamed about. I've never linked it to the the language before. That's a really new insight for me, and that makes total sense.

我的意思是，语言定义并强调了关系，而我们有着不同的关系期望。实际上，由于这种关系的性质，我们在业务上也有不同的期望。如果你不断强调家庭纽带、忠诚、作为中间的孩子以及希望与你兄弟保持良好关系的愿望，这很可能会影响围绕问责制的期望。

I mean, the language defines, emphasizes the relationship, and we have a different relational expectation. And business, actually, we have a different business expectation because of the nature of the relationship. And if you constantly emphasize the family tie and the loyalty and the middle child and the desire to have your brother stay in good terms with you, there's a good chance that that will influence expectations around accountability.

我肯定，我想我会用两句话。比如说，如果我说，‘哦，我兄弟工作真的很努力。他们只是目前在这个角色上表现不太好。’ 我发现这样很容易就放过他们。而在我其他公司里，我绝不会说，‘哦，我的市场总监工作真的很努力。’

I definitely I think I would two two sentences. So if if I say, oh, my my brother's working really hard. They're just not performing the role so well at the moment, for example. I find it very easy to let them off the hook. Whereas I would never in one of my other companies, I would never say, oh, my marketing director is working really hard.

所以即使效果不好，也没关系。我绝不会那样说。那听起来很疯狂，但我绝对会，而且已经反其道而行之了。意图是好的，工作也很努力，但质量不到位。如果没有家庭纽带，有时这根本说不通。

So even though it's not working, it's okay. I would I would never say that. That sounds crazy to me, but I would absolutely and and have done it the other way around. The intention is good and the work is hard, but the quality is not there. Sometimes makes no sense without the familial tie.

我的意思是，这可不是让你拿起锤子就开始敲打自己。对吧？不要把洞察变成即时批评。

I mean, this is not set so that you can take a hammer and start banging on yourself. Right? Don't turn insight into instant criticism.

不，我知道。我理解这一点。这确实是我的一个倾向。我会尽量不这样做的。

No, I know. And I understand that. That is a tendency I definitely have. I will try not to.

这很难接受。就像，哇，你知道，因为那不是我可能会做的事。但这是很好的思考素材，对未来有很多有用的信息。因为我猜你正在考虑他们如何在下一个项目中继续与你合作。

It's hard to sit with. It's like, woah, you know, because that's not what I would have done. But it it's very good food for thought, and it's a lot of good information for the future. Because the I'm assuming you're trying to think how they could continue with you in the next venture.

绝对不是下一个项目。

Definitely not the next one.

但你觉得你需要帮助他们找到下一个落脚点？

But you feel like you need to help them find the next place to land?

我绝对觉得我会继续与他们保持专业关系并合作。但我肯定不想再以同样的方式合作了，因为现在这种风险感觉太高了，我意识到这种方式极其居高临下。想着，哦，确保他们都能站稳脚跟并找到合适的工作是我的责任。

I feel absolutely I would continue to have professional relationships with them and work with them. Definitely, I don't want to work in the same way again because right now the stakes feel so high in a way I recognize as extremely patronizing. Think, oh, it's my responsibility to make sure that they both land on their feet and get the right jobs.

为什么呢？为什么？因为你越是这样说，就暗示着——这是个微妙之处——你实际上认为他们能力不足。因此，你需要以某种方式扶持他们，或者降低你的期望，或者不要求同样程度的责任担当。现在我需要理解这一点。

And Why? Why? Why do because the the more you tell me that, it implies, and that's a subtle thing, that you actually don't think they're capable. And therefore, you need to boost them in one way or another or lessen your expectations or not demand the same level of accountability. And now I need to understand that.

啊，你并不真的这么想，我也不知道这是某一天还是某一次，或者这是个打包协议。是否有人给过你一个信息，让你觉得你需要

A, you don't really, and I don't know if it's a day or one more than the other or it's a package deal. Is there a message you were given that you need to

我没有

I don't

不允许你独自超越他们获得成功，而必须是一个三人组合？

That you're not allowed to succeed beyond them by yourself, and that this has to be a triad?

不。不。绝对不是。我想我在更年轻的时候，是学术上最成功的一个。我的一个兄弟现在在这方面肯定超过我了，但按年龄相当的阶段来说。

No. No. Definitely not. I think I'm I was at a younger age, the most academically successful one. One of my brothers is is now definitely in advance of me on that, but sort of age for age equivalents.

而且这一点得到了所有人的庆祝，包括他们，这真是太棒了。我想我试图找出问题的根源。我觉得这对我来说很难，因为我知道，就像我刚说的，这感觉真的很居高临下。当我直面它时，我想我没有。他们都是成年男性，是极其能干、有竞争力、聪明、勤奋的人。

And that was celebrated by everyone, them, which was fantastic. Think I try to get to the bottom of it. I think it's difficult for me because I know it's you know, I just said, you know, it feels really patronizing. When I look it in the face, I think I don't. They're both adult men who are incredibly capable, competent, clever, hardworking human beings.

他们不需要我来解决他们的问题。绝对不需要。

They do not need me to solve their problems. They absolutely don't.

你真的相信吗？因为那个居高临下的你并不相信这一点。

You really believe that? Because the patronizing part of you doesn't believe that.

我认为这很可能不是始于我们共事之前。当我创立这家公司时，我们就在这个行业一起工作，而我已经在这个领域工作了一段时间。他们俩对这个行业和初创企业生活都是新手。而我已经经历过所有这些。所以当他们刚加入时，我们可能就陷入了这种局面——不是说我什么都懂，但我确实懂得比你们多。

I think it's probably doesn't predate working together. I think working together in this business when I I set the business up, I've been working in this sector for a while. They were both new to both the sector and to sort of start up life and all of those things. And I'd done all of those things. And so I think when they first joined, we probably ended up in this position of not I know everything, but I know more than you.

我对这个行业更了解，对公司更了解，更知道该怎么做。因此，你知道，我的职责就是充当那种向导。然后我们经历了那个阶段，实际上，你知道，这很棒，他们俩都有我完全不懂的专业领域，我很喜欢这一点，但我可能从未完全放下那种心态——嘿，新手们，我想确保你们在这里有很棒的经历，你们能成长，学到所有想学的东西，那是我的职责，也许七年前这确实是我的职责。

I know more about the sector. I know more about the company. I know more about how to do this. And therefore, you know, it's my job to be that sort of guide. And then we've had that period where actually, you know, it's fantastic and they've both got specialisms I have no idea about and I love that, but I probably just have never left behind that whole like, hey, you know, newbies, I want to make sure you have a fantastic experience here and and you grow and you learn all that you want to and that's my job, which maybe seven years ago it was my job.

但现在这不是我的职责了，他们也不需要我这样做。真的不需要。我认为这很可能不是始于我们的职业生涯之前。

It's it's not my job now and they don't need me to do it. They really don't. Think it's I think it's that probably probably doesn't predate our professional lives.

广告之后我们将继续本节内容。虽然我们感谢赞助商，但如果您想无广告收听本节内容，请点击

We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you wanna listen to this session ad free, click the try free button to subscribe to Astaire's office hours on Apple Podcasts.

本节目由Robinhood赞助。在一个平台上管理您的投资组合不是很好吗？通过Robinhood，您不仅可以交易个股和ETF，还可以以低成本无缝买卖加密货币。一站式交易。立即在Robinhood开始吧！

Support for this show comes from Robinhood. Wouldn't it be great to manage your portfolio on one platform? With Robinhood, not only can you trade individual stocks and ETFs, you can also seamlessly buy and sell crypto at low costs. Trade all in one place. Get started now on Robinhood!

加密货币交易涉及重大风险。加密货币交易通过Robinhood Crypto LLC账户提供。Robinhood Crypto已获得纽约州金融服务部从事虚拟货币业务活动的许可。通过Robinhood Crypto持有的加密货币不受FDIC保险或CIPIC保护。投资涉及风险，包括本金损失。

Trading crypto involves significant risk. Crypto trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Crypto LLC. Robinhood Crypto is licensed to engage in virtual currency business activity by the New York State Department of Financial Services. Crypto held through Robinhood Crypto is not FDIC insured or CIPIC protected. Investing involves risk, including loss of principal.

证券交易通过Robinhood Financial LLC账户提供，该公司是CIPIC成员，注册经纪交易商。

Securities trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Financial LLC, member CIPIC, a registered broker dealer.

本节目由焦点影业及其新片《唐顿庄园：盛大终章》赞助播出。魅力、浪漫、绯闻——《唐顿庄园》回归带来最后一场难忘的盛宴。故事来到1930年，新时代开启之际，唐顿庄园的未来岌岌可危。玛丽小姐卷入公开丑闻，惊人的真相震撼家族根基。这不仅是一部电影，更是一个时代印记。

Support for the show comes from Focus Features and their new film Downton Abbey, the grand finale. Glamour, romance, scandal, Downton Abbey returns for one final unforgettable event. It's 1930, and as a new era begins, the future of Downton is at stake. Lady Mary is thrust into public scandal, and shocking revelations shake the family to its core. This isn't just a movie, it's a moment.

告别时刻终于来临，所有故事都指向这个终点。见证《唐顿庄园：盛大终章》，9月12日唯在影院巨幕呈现。

The time has come to say goodbye, and everything has led to this. See Downton Abbey, the grand finale, on the biggest screen possible only in theaters September 12.

我是诺埃尔·金。今天在Vox的《今日解说》节目中，我将对话保守派活动家、作家兼挑衅者克里斯托弗·鲁福。为什么？因为克里斯·鲁福总能从大学、企业乃至特朗普总统那里得到他想要的——他要求终止DEI（多元平等包容）政策，他成功了。

I'm Noelle King. And today, on Today Explained from Vox, I'm talking to conservative activist, writer, and provocateur Christopher Rufo. Why? Because Chris Rufo gets what he wants from universities, from corporations, from president Trump, he wanted an end to DEI. He got it.

我们已在整个联邦政府终结了所谓多元化、公平与包容政策的专制统治，并且——

We've ended the tyranny of so called diversity, equity, and inclusion policies all across the entire federal government and

他要求政府停止向大学提供联邦资金，除非它们屈服于他的要求。这一点他也达成了。他想要让一个晦涩的学术法律理论变成全国性的恐怖象征——也做到了。

He wanted the government to yank federal funding from universities unless they submitted to his demands. He got that too. He wanted an obscure academic legal theory to become a national boogeyman. Done.

我们已将批判性种族理论的毒害从公立学校中清除。

We have removed the poison of critical race theory from our public schools.

他甚至要求Cracker Barrel餐厅换回旧标志——说实话，我们稍加努力就能砸碎这个木桶标志。既然他总能如愿以偿，我们觉得有必要问问：他现在还想要什么？克里斯·鲁福的文化革命。《今日解说》每周工作日更新推送。

He wanted Cracker Barrel to change its logo back. We could, in fact, break the barrel, with just a small amount of effort. Since he's getting what he wants, we thought it was worth asking, what does he want now? Chris Rufo's Cultural Revolution. Today Explained is in your feeds every week day.

父母参与这个故事了吗？

Are the parents involved in this story?

他们大概是这样：每次我们中有人和他们谈论工作时，他们都非常好。其他人从没听过他们说什么。他们很漂亮，是那种很好的保密者。他们不爱说闲话，这很完美。但我发现目前很难和他们谈论这个情况。

They are probably to the extent that they're very good whenever any of us talk to them about work. Others never hear what they say. They're pretty, they're good sort of secret keepers. They're not gossipy, which is perfect. I find it currently very difficult to speak with them about the situation.

不是因为我不信任他们，而是因为感觉太困难了，感觉我最终会责备别人或感到非常尴尬，或者

Not because I don't trust them, but because it feels too difficult to it feels like I would end up blaming or being very embarrassed or

但困难意味着我担心我会要么责备我的兄弟们，要么责备我自己。

But difficult means I worried that I would either be blaming my brothers or blaming myself.

是的。完全正确。就是那样。

Yeah. Exactly. That.

要么是愤怒，要么是羞愧。

It's either anger or shame.

是的。是的。我发现很难谈论这整个情况而不涉及其中一种情绪，除非我处于完全专业的'让我们把事情搞定'模式。我现在没有中间地带。

Yeah. Yeah. I I find it very difficult to talk about this entire situation without one of those things unless I'm in complete professional, let's get things done Right. Mode. I have no middle ground right now.

我明白了。你来找我是为了寻求根本性的解决。是的，不是为了折中方案。

I get it. And you came to me for the underground. Yes. Not for the middle ground.

正是如此。你

Exactly. You

知道吗？因为你会发现，当你遇到特定情境时，所有反应、情绪和行为都会浮现。但当你审视它们时，会开始注意到它们如何映射出完全不同情境下的相似行为模式。这就像是对你应对策略、处理这类情境风格的一次罗夏墨迹测试。我试图依赖他人时——通常我不是轻易依赖别人的人，我会自己出手——

know? Because you see what happens is you have a particular situation and all these reactions and feelings and behaviors come up. But then when you look at them, you begin to notice how they reflect similar behaviors in completely different situations. It's like you get a bit of a Rorschach of your coping strategies, of your style of dealing with these kind of situations. Something I try to do where I depend on other people, I typically am not somebody who so easily depends on other people, I go out myself.

如果行不通，我就会陷入'他们做错了什么'与'我做错了什么'的两难境地，或者反过来。如果我做错了，就会自责。突然间事情脱离具体情境，变得高度个人化，不再关乎创业领域或其他外部因素。焦点完全落在具体的人身上，主要是我的兄弟、联合创始人，或者我自己——总觉得是我们中的某人搞砸了一切。

And if it doesn't work, then I'm stuck between the what they did wrong versus what I did wrong or vice versa. I did wrong and I blame myself. Suddenly it gets decontextualized and it becomes highly personalized, and it's no longer about startup world and this and that. It's about them, mostly my brothers and my cofounder or me. One of us sunk the ship.

是的。你明白吗？是的。这与其说是关于责任，不如说是关于指责。

Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it's not about responsibility as much as about blame.

现在感觉确实如此。

It feels like that now.

没错。但这并不是你第一次用这种方式处理问题。当你带着如此固定的思维模式时，我认为这其实是你个人关系履历的一部分。这种模式在其他情境中也早已存在。它往往伴随着那些责任感极强且容易将问题个人化的人。

Yeah. But that is not the only time you've done it this way. When you come with such a set structure, usually, I think, you know, this is part of your own relationship resume. This form has already existed in other situations as well. It also accompanies people who live with a very strong sense of responsibility and personalize.

如果事情顺利，功劳在我；如果不顺利，责任也在我。有些人顺利时抢功，不顺利时推责。你明白吗？是的。所以我们可以像你处理离婚那样做。

If it goes well, it's me, but if it doesn't go well, it's also me. There are other people when it goes well, it's me, and when it doesn't go well, it's others. You know? Yep. So we can do the same as you did with the divorce.

你认识到什么？确实，必须有人承担责任。我反复摇摆不定。有时觉得是我的错，怪我该做的没做、该怎么做没做好，然后我又回去听录音确认自己确实警告过他们——迹象已经很明显，公司表现不佳。但另一方面我又觉得，如果我当初真重视这件事，就应该回头去补救，但我不愿意。所以我看着他们，他们也没行动，结果就成了这样。

What do you recognize? Indeed, somebody must be at fault. And I vacillate back and forth. Sometimes I think it's me and what I didn't do and how and then I went back to listen just to make sure that I really had warned them the signs are out there, the company is not performing well, but part of me feels that if I had really taken this seriously, I should have gone back to fix it, but I didn't want to. And so I saw them and they didn't do it either, and here we are.

是啊。是啊。我是真的不愿意。

Yeah. Yeah. I really didn't want to.

是的。这点我非常清楚。

Yeah. I am very clear on that.

我

I

但这一点非常关键，因为'真的不愿意'就像：我拉响了警报，但没全力拉响，因为我知道如果真追查下去，最终会落到我必须重新介入的地步——毕竟我知道有些方法可能真正解决问题，至少我这么认为。是的。但我不想这么做，所以想着让他们处理，可心里又知道他们做不到。

but it's very important piece because that really didn't really want to is like, I rang the alarm, but I didn't rang it that intensely because I knew that if I really followed the thread, it will land with I have to step back in here because there's something I know that can actually fix this or so I think. Yeah. But I didn't wanna do it, so I thought let them do it, but part of me knew they can't do it.

是啊。我觉得你刚才说的很多话真的、真的引起了我的共鸣。关于帮助的那部分。不。我...我喜欢帮助别人。

Yeah. I think a lot of a lot of what you've just said really, really resonates. The the piece about helping. No. I I like I like to help people.

我不喜欢寻求帮助。我喜欢独立，我喜欢所有那些特质。对我来说，这其实是同一个故事的一部分。虽然听起来可能很自大，但回顾过去，我觉得很少有事情是我无法摆平的。

I don't like to get don't I don't like to get help. I like to be independent. I like I like all of those things. And for me, it's it's part of the same it's part of the same story. I suppose it sounds really self aggrandizing, but I look back and I think there are very few things that I couldn't make right.

只要我足够努力并全力以赴，就很少有解决不了的问题——虽然现在可能即将面临第一个重大失败。但说实话，我觉得这是一种累积效应。经历一次次危机后，我总能通过疯狂工作等方式解决它们，于是逐渐形成了'任何问题我都能独自解决'的膨胀自信。

That if I tried hard enough and I brought my energy to to bear, there are few and yeah, I might be about to have the first one, but, you know, sort of few major failures that I've gone through. And realistically, my sense is it's properly cumulative. So I've gone, okay, we had this issue and I've been able to fix that through working insanely hard or whatever. And we've had this issue and I've been able to solve this and this issue, and I've been able to solve this. And probably what I have ended up with is an enormously swollen head about the kind of problems that are personally solvable by me.

而事实上，生活终将让我遇到无法独自解决的难题。比如现在市场环境变化，这些外部因素真实存在——有次开会我甚至说'别再提市场了'，回想起来多么愚蠢。

And actually, life was always going to run me up against something which which wasn't personally solvable by me. In our case, market conditions have changed, and those those external factors are true. They're absolutely true. There came a point during a previous meeting where I just said, look, I don't want to hear about the market again. What a stupid thing to say on reflection.

我们当然要考虑市场。但我在想到底这种心态从何而来？就像在寻找最根源的故事原型。

Of course, we have to think about the market. But I'm trying to think where where does it come from? Kind of like, what's the oldest story I can think of?

哦，没那么古老。需要提示吗？请说吧。虽然不确定是否准确，但突然想到的是：我本可以解决这个问题，但我不愿意。

Oh, not that old. Should I give you a clue? Please. I have no idea if it's a good one, but it's the one that popped into into my head. I think I could fix this problem, but I don't want to.

于是我就因为你做不到而生气。而你的无能为力又让我陷入愧疚——明明有能力却不愿行动。这种'应该做'和'想要做'的冲突让我焦虑：为什么你不能替我做那些我不愿做的事？如果你做了，我就解脱了。

And so I get mad at you for not being capable to do so. And you're not being able to do so then puts me in a position where I feel guilty, bad, that I am not doing something that I know I could do because I don't want to. And so I enter into a tension between what I should and what I want. Why can't you do the thing that I don't want to do? If you did it, I would be fine.

但如果你不做，我的意愿就会与责任产生矛盾。

But if you don't, then that the wanting gets into conflict with the should.

我恐怕我们又要回到我可怜的前夫身上了，因为那

I I fear we may be back on my poor ex husband again for that because that

你可能需要去和你的

You may need to go and have a a closer conversation with your

并且向...道歉，我 是的。不，确实。我 我认为是

and apologies to I yeah. No, indeed. I I think it's

如果可以的话，带着洞察力告诉我，而不是用棍棒。你很苛刻。你对自己太严厉了，这有时也是阻碍你思考的部分原因。是的。也阻碍了你拥有觉察和洞察力，因为当你这样做时，它立刻就变成了批评和棍棒，让你根本不想这么做。

And tell it to me if you can with insight and not with a bat. You're harsh. You're hard on yourself, which is part of what prevents you from thinking sometimes. Yeah. And from having the awareness and the insight because when you do, it so instantly morphs into criticism and a bat that you just don't wanna do it.

你不想继续这个想法了。所以我知道刚刚有什么东西被触动了。让我们一起探索一下吧。

You don't wanna continue the thought. So I know something just clicked. Let's just explore it together.

我可能很早就意识到我并不想结婚。

I probably realized that I didn't want to be married really early.

和他。是和他。

To him. To him.

对他说的。而且我确实度过了一段时期，不过说真的，那还很早，就在第一年内。

To him. And once I got through a period of But it's really early, by the way. Within the first year.

好的。这并不少见。

Okay. It's not uncommon.

所以当我鼓起勇气正视这一点后——我很庆幸自己做到了，并且没有对自己太苛刻——我觉得我处理得相当快。感觉挺勇敢的。但后来你所说的某些话真的引起了我的共鸣，就是那种‘要是你能这样就好了，然后我就能意识到我确实想结婚，而我们所有的问题就都解决了，尽管你还没意识到这些问题存在’。你知道，就是那种‘要是你能这样或那样做就好了’。

So after I'd sort of worked up the courage to look that in the face, which I'm very glad I did on on the note of of not being too harsh with myself, I think that was it was I did it quite quickly. It felt quite brave. But then I had that something really resonated in what you said of that kind of, if only you could do this, then I could realize that I do want to be married. And then all of our problems will be solved that you aren't aware exist yet. You know, if if only if only you could be this or you could do this or you could

什么样的‘这样’？给我举几个例子

What kind of this? Give me a couple of examples

比如他喝酒的一些习惯，我不太喜欢，但说实话还在可容忍的范围内。还有一些——同样是很早的时候——就是让我烦恼的事情，比如有点势利和自大。实际上那时我们已经在一起好几年了，我本该更早意识到，或者我觉得我应该更早意识到，所以我对提出这些要求感到非常内疚。你知道，他一定很困惑，因为他多年来一直做的事，我突然就无法忍受了。真的吗？

There was some stuff around his drinking, for example, which I didn't love, but was realistically well within the kind of, you know, sort of realms of toleration. There were just and again, quite early, just things that annoyed me, just sort of bits of snobbishness and pomposity, which realistically, we'd been together for years by then. I should have worked it out earlier or I felt like I should have worked it out earlier, so I felt very guilty about sort of setting these. You know, he he must have been really confused because suddenly things that he'd been doing for years, I could not live with anymore. Really?

我会说，你知道，要是你能这样就好了。而提出要求让我感觉糟透了，因为我知道这不合理，也知道这完全是我的问题，不是他的。我变了。他没变。但是我

And I would say, you know, just you know, if you could just do this, and I would feel awful about asking because I knew it was unreasonable, and I knew it was absolutely about me and not about him. I changed. He hadn't changed. But I

我当时在说。是的。但我当时在说，对吧？一切都变成了恼火的来源。

I was speaking. Yeah. But I was speaking. Right? Everything became source of irritation.

确实如此。因为从根本上说，我想退出，我有勇气正视这一点，但我没有勇气真正去做。同时，我试图对自己友善一些。我也认为其中一部分是关于同理心，想着：不，我必须尝试。

Exactly. Because fundamentally, I wanted out, and I'd had the bravery to look that in the face, and I hadn't had the bravery to to do it. And, again, trying to be kind to myself. I also think I part of that was about compassion and thinking, no. I have to I have to try.

我想与此同时，我虽然挑剔，但也努力想要做得更好、变得更好。但我们去参加了一次婚姻咨询，治疗师在会议中说，你们基本上没有继续的必要，因为你根本不想维持这段婚姻。她说得比这更专业些，但根本上她的意思是：看，这里没什么可谈的了。那一刻，佩妮的话点醒了我。我想，你知道吗？

I think at the same time I was picking, was also trying to, you know, to do better and and to be better. But we we went to one session of marriage counseling, and the therapist said in the session, she was like, there's basically no point you being here because you do not want to be in this marriage. She was more professional about it than that, but but fundamentally, she said, look, there's not much of a conversation to have here. And that was, you know, Penny sort of clicked for me. I thought, you know what?

那是事实。而且我继续这样做实际上对自己并不友善。嗯。这样的生活对他不好，对我也不是好生活。

That's true. And it's actually not kind of me to keep doing this. Mhmm. This is not a good life for him. This is not a good life for me.

我这样做并不仁慈。我们只需要继续前进，而之后我们确实很快就这么做了。

I'm not being kind here. We just have to move on, which we did very quickly after that.

所以，我想象中你需要和你兄弟们进行的对话，不是关于公司，也不是关于市场。而是一场关于家庭纽带的对话。可能同时和两人谈，或者如果你不称他们为兄弟，那你可能不会和他们单独谈。是的。如果按角色称呼，你不会把他们捆绑在一起。

So the conversation that I imagine needs to happen with your brothers is not about the company and not about the market. It's a conversation about the family ties. And it may be with both of them at the same time, or if you don't call them as brothers, then you probably won't have them one on one. Yeah. If they were named by their role, you wouldn't bundle them.

是的。但在这个例子中，这既是公司对话，也是家庭纽带对话。但你所进行的公司对话，实质上是家庭纽带的问题。我明白这对你来说很有挑战性。你一直在想什么？

Yeah. But in this instance, it is a family tie conversation as much as a company conversation. But the company conversation you have, it's really the family tie. I realize this is challenging for you. What have you been thinking?

你觉得自己接下来该怎么做？我们的关系是否受到公司变动的影响，无论是出售还是关闭？这是一场关于关系的对话。

Where do you see yourself go from here? Is there something that about our relationship that is affected by the company changes, either we sell or we need to close? And it's a relationship conversation.

就在我们刚才交谈的过程中，我突然意识到，我好像从来没有明确对他们说过我在语音留言里向你提出的第一个问题中的那句话——我只是想让我们在这一切结束后依然能彼此相爱。我希望我们能够像现在这样作为好朋友走出来，这并不是说不会有情绪反应。当然会有。我理解这可能是一段非常颠簸的时期，但根本上，我最优先考虑的是让这些关系完好无损地走出来，我们所有人都能够做到这一点。而我觉得我从未如此明确地告诉过他们这一点。

As we've been speaking now, I've I've just realized, I don't think I've ever said to them explicitly what I said in my very first question in the voice note to you, which is just I I want to come out of this as we'll always love each other. I want to come out of this as as good friends as we are now, and that's not to say that there won't be emotional responses. Of course, there will. I appreciate it might be a really bumpy time, but fundamentally, my biggest priority is to to come out of this with these relationships intact from all of us being able to to do that. And I I think I've never said that that explicitly to them.

这感觉或许是一个开始。

It feels like maybe a start.

是的，是的，确实如此。你觉得他们甚至想过这一点吗，他们知道吗，或者他们认为你是

Yes. Yes. Very much so. Do you think they even think that, they know that, or they think you're

自私的？我希望他们知道。我觉得这可能会与他们认为我自私的想法共存。这没关系，但我希望他们知道这一点。

selfish? I hope they know that. I think that may coexist with thinking I'm selfish. That's and that's that's fine, but I hope they know it.

好的。所以这是一个很好的起点。你有一个很好的起点。你对我非常重要。公司来来去去。

Okay. So this is you have a great place to start. You have a great place to start. You matter to me dearly. Companies come and go.

你们是我一生的兄弟，我们将要经历一个艰难的过渡期。作为兄弟姐妹，我们需要做什么才能共同度过这个难关？所以这不只是'我'的问题，而是'我们'的问题。我们如何保持团结？我们如何维系我们的纽带。

You are my brothers for life, and we're gonna go through a difficult transition. What do we need to do as brothers and sisters for us to come through this? So it's not just an I, it's a we. How do we stay together? We maintain our bond.

我们每个人对正在经历的事情都有自己的感受。我们不必完全一致。这不是合唱团。但与此同时，我们有一个统一的目标，那就是维持——我们是否有这个统一的目标？这绝对是我的目标。

We each have our own feelings about what we're going through. We don't have to be in unison. This is not a choir. But at the same time, we have a unified goal, which is to maintain do we have this unified goal? It's definitely mine.

为此我们需要什么？我们每个人需要什么？因为你也可能对他们有所需求。不只是他们对你。抱歉。

And what do we need for that? What do each of us need? Because you may have needs from them too. It's not just them from you. I'm sorry.

你可能真的需要主动提出要求。

You may have to actually ask for something.

别逼我。不。我 我

Don't make me. No. I I

就这个。不行。

just this. No.

我 我 我喜欢这个问题。我喜欢这个开场方式。这感觉不像

I I I love that as a I love that as a question. I love that as an introduction. That doesn't feel like

这并不可怕。

It's not scary.

这感觉很轻松。是的。

That feels easy. Yeah.

这并不感觉可怕。它正是它本来的样子，而你立刻将其与声音问题联系起来这一点非常完美。这正是需要连接的点，因为你不会谈论失败。你会谈论你们三人之间存在的纽带所具有的坚持和毅力。那才是最重要的部分。

Doesn't feel like scary. It's it's what it's exactly and the fact that you instantly connected it to the voice question is perfect. It's the dots that needed to be connected because you're not going to talk about failure. You're going to talk about the persistence and the perseverance of the bond that exists between the three of you. That's the most important piece.

它是最重要的事情。然后可能还有他们各自会做什么，或者他们如何看待自己，你知道，从这里开始前进，而且事实上这也不仅仅是一个失败。三个人都是。是的。这对你来说是一个好的切入点吗？

It's it's the most important thing. And then potentially what they each will do or how they see themselves, you know, go from here, and the fact that it's not just a failure either. All three. Yeah. Is that a good place for you to pick up?

是的。那是个很好的点。那是一个很棒的下一步。非常非常感谢你。

Yeah. That's a great place. That's a that's a great next step. Thank you so so much.

不客气。再见。谢谢。再见。

Your pleasure. Bye bye. Thanks. Bye bye.

这是一次Astaire来电，一次性的干预电话，从世界某两处地点远程录制。如果你有想问Astaire探讨、并可能在四十分钟或五十分钟的电话中得到解答的问题，请给她发送一条语音消息，Astaire或许就会打给你。请将你的问题发送至producer@EstherPerel.com。《Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel》由Magnificent Noise制作。我们是Vox Media播客网络的一部分，与《纽约杂志》和《The Cut》合作。

This was an Astaire calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire that could be answered in a forty or fifty minute phone call, send her a voice message, and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to producer@EstherPerel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.

我们的制作团队包括Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, 和 Julian Atte。原声音乐及附加制作由Paul Schneider负责。《Where Should We Begin?》的执行制片人是Esther Perel和Jesse Baker。我们还要感谢Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, 和 Jack Saul。

Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Atte. Original music, an additional production, by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.