埃丝特的呼唤 - 这份心碎会有尽头吗？

与其通过书面形式，不如直接听你亲口说，请告诉我你的问题以及问题的一些背景情况。

Just for me to hear it directly from you rather than on in writing, just tell me the question and a little bit about the context of your question.

当然可以。嗯，我的第一段恋情大约在一年前结束了。我现在29岁，分手时是28岁。自那以后，我的情绪一直起伏不定，过得相当艰难。

Of course. Yeah. So, my first relationship ended around a year ago now. And as I am 29 right now, it ended when I was 28. And I have been having a really hard time ever since with ups and downs.

幸运的是，并非完全令人沮丧，但确实相当难熬。分手后我与前任多次重新联系，这并没有帮助。但我想这也是问题的一部分。我的疑问是，如何放下一个在感情上不再对我有感觉的人？我知道这样更好，因为那段关系非常艰难，存在许多对我们双方都不利的毒性互动。所以我的主要问题是，如何在29岁这个或许让事情复杂化的年纪，放下你的第一次心碎。

Luckily, hasn't all been completely depressing, but it has been quite a hard time. And I reconnected several times after a breakup with my ex, and that didn't help. But that's also part of the issue I think and the question that I have is how do I let go of someone that is not into me in a romantic sense anymore? And I know that's for the better because the relationship was very hard and had very or had many toxic dynamics that were not good for either of us. And so my primary question is how to let go of heartbreak that is your first heartbreak at the age of 29, which complicates things maybe a bit.

当然，我个人的历史中还有更多细节导致了现在的情况。

And of course, are way more details to this in my own history as well that led up to this point.

我是梅根·拉皮诺。本周在《深入一点》节目中，ESPN体育主播兼播客主持人艾尔·邓肯将加入讨论WNBA季后赛、本赛季的超预期与未达预期球队、她投票选出的MVP及其他赛季奖项的原因。最新一期《深入一点》可在各大播客平台及YouTube上收听。

Megan Rapinoe here. This week on a touch more, ESPN sports anchor and podcaster, Elle Duncan, joins to discuss the WNBA playoffs, the season's overachievers and underachievers, who got her vote for MVP, and the other end of season awards, and why. Check out the latest episode of a touch more wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

嗨，我是塔菲，正在主持一档来自The Cut的新播客《塔菲闲谈》。把我当作你的职场闺蜜，为你带来最劲爆的流行文化深度解析、名人八卦解读，以及现代生活的闲聊。新集每周三在YouTube或你喜欢的播客应用上线。让我们一起愉快地逃避实际工作吧。

Hey. I'm Tuffy, and I'm hosting a new podcast from the cut called Tuffy Talks. Think of me as your work bestie who's here to give you all the juiciest pop culture deep dives, read celebrity tea leaves, and yap about modern life. New episodes drop every Wednesday on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. It's going to be so fun avoiding actual work together.

关于你的初恋、分手、关系中的问题，以及你童年经历的情感教育，有哪些重要信息是我需要了解的？

What's important for me to know about your first love, the ending, the troubles of the relationship, the relationship school that you went to in your childhood?

嗯。

Mhmm.

我需要了解什么重要信息？

What is important for me to know?

我认为这段关系本身——虽然我花了一些时间才意识到——但与我父母至今仍保持的关系模式有些相似。这种关系是怎样的呢？他们彼此间情感疏离，这对我与兄弟姐妹也产生了影响。尽管他们尽了最大努力，尤其是我母亲，她来自一个问题重重的大家庭，父母几乎不提供或极少提供情感支持。年轻时我从未真正思考过这些，直到我姐姐第一次问我同样的问题。

I think that the relationship itself, and it took some time for me to notice, but looks somewhat familiar to the relationship that my parents have still to this day. And Which is? Emotionally detached from each other as well, which also had an effect on me and my siblings. And although they did their very best, they also and primarily my mother came from quite troubled backgrounds with large families and also no emotional or very little emotional availability from their parents. And that's something that when I was younger, I never really stood still by until my sister first, like, asked me the same question.

比如：'你有没有因为父母的情感忽视而感到受伤或不被看见？'她在我18岁左右首次提出这个问题。当时我对这个问题没什么共鸣，就告诉姐姐：

Like, do you ever feel unhurt by emotionally unhurt or or not seen by by my parents? And she first asked me that when I was, like, 18. And I didn't really connect to that question very much. So I told my sister,

你在说什么啊？

what are you talking about?

差不多就是这反应。我当时觉得'完全没有'，可能只是太专注于自己的事情，加上那时没有任何真正的恋爱经验。所以我只顾着做自己的事，和朋友玩乐之类的。

Exactly. More or less. I was like, well, no. I was just too occupied with my own things at the time and I was not I didn't have any like real relationship experience back then. And so I was just doing my things, enjoying myself with my friends and things like that.

是的，我当时很惊讶，基本就是'完全听不懂你在说什么'。过去几年间这件事逐渐变得清晰起来，甚至在我与前女友交往前就有感觉。但如今那段关系结束了，其实在交往期间我就深刻体会到：作为我的初恋，她让我前所未有地感受到'被看见'，这导致我过快地依附于这段关系。这种互动模式是我们共同塑造的。

Yeah, I was surprised like, no, I have no clue what you're talking about basically. And over the last couple of years that made more sense already. Also before my relationship with my now ex girlfriend. But now that that relationship concluded and also somewhat during the relationship, I felt so seen in that relationship by my first girlfriend that I attached myself way too quickly to the relationship as well. And that was some dynamic that we created together.

那感觉有点像爱意轰炸，如果你可以这么形容的话。但我和我的前女友一样投入其中。所以，是的，我认为这算是关于我年轻时的一些背景情况。

It felt somewhat like love bombing, if you could say it like that. But I was just as much there as my ex girlfriend was. So, yeah, I think that that's a little bit of context, like, in regards to my youth.

所以我当时并不知道自己错过了爱、亲密和联系

So I didn't know that I missed love, closeness, connection

还有柔情。柔情。柔情。

Affection as well. Affection. Affection.

柔情。是的。但当我遇见她时，我内心的一切都在尖叫，渴望，如饥似渴地想要大口吞下所有这些。

Affection. Yes. But when I met her, everything in me was screaming, longing, and yearning for all of it in big gulps.

没错。非常强烈。

Yeah. Very much so.

而我允许了这一切？我欣然接受了？我...吓到自己了吗？我吓到她了吗？还是以上都不是？

And I allowed it? I welcomed it? I I scared myself? I scared her? Or none of the above?

不，不。因为我开始约会时还是个处男，那时已经26岁了。我开始约会后遇到了几位很棒的女孩，但都没能修成正果。我想我大概和七八个女孩约会过至少几次，大多数都是这样。

No. No. Because I started dating and I was still a virgin before I started dating, and that was at 26. I started dating and it's I met several wonderful girls, but none of them worked out. And I think I've met around seven or eight girls that I dated at least a couple of times, most of them.

有的多些，有的少些。后来我遇到了前女友，当时我也极度渴望一段关系，这种心态并不健康，但我毫无经验。就像一条在空旷海洋中寻找食物却一无所获的鱼。然后我遇见了她，她

Some a little more, some a little less. And then I met my ex girlfriend, and I was also so desperately looking for a relationship, which wasn't healthy, but I had no experience whatsoever. So I was just like like a fish looking for for food in the open ocean without any food. And then I met her and she

出现了。我当时就像一条在没有食物的空旷海洋中觅食的鱼。这个意象很生动。能详细描述一下吗？

came Hold out of I was like a fish looking for food in an open ocean where there was no food. That is quite an image. Describe it for me.

好。那时候有过几次约会，第一次我就投入了感情——实际上第二次约会后感觉也很美好，我们接吻了。又约会几次后，我们上了床。那是我真正意义上的第一次。更早年轻时我有过探索，但那与爱情无关。

Yeah. So there were a couple of dates back then that I attached the first one, actually, which also felt quite wonderful after, like, the second date, we we kissed. And after a couple of more dates, we ended up in bed. That was my first time in in in that sense. I had experimented way before that time when I was younger, but it was it had nothing to do with with love.

所以那次才是真正的第一次，然后我就变得非常

So that was the real first time, and and I got so

依恋。对你来说...慢点说，慢点，慢点。

attached. For you. Slow down. Slow down. Slow down.

你一下子告诉我这么多重要的事。我们放慢节奏可以吗？

You're telling me so many things and so many important things. Is it okay if we slow

好的...可以...如果你能帮我调整节奏就太好了。

down and Yeah. Do a Yeah. If you can help me with that, that would be great.

那么首先，让我们深呼吸一下，只为让你体内感受到不同的节奏。嗯。所以这是你的第一次，也许不是第一次性经历，但却是第一次涉及爱情的伴侣体验。是的。那么你当时是处女吗，还是已经不是了？

So let's take a deep breath, first of all, just to bring a different rhythm inside your body. Mhmm. So this was your first, maybe not your first sexual experience, but your first partnered experience that involved love. Yeah. So you were a virgin, you were not a virgin?

我当时是处女。好吧。那不是我的第一次性经历，但我仍然是处女。好的。

I was a virgin. Okay. It was not my first sexual experience, but I was still a virgin. Okay.

对你来说那感觉如何？她或她的经验比你丰富吗？

And how was that for you? Was she or she had more experience than you?

不。她...我相信她刚结束一段八年的感情，所以她经验相当丰富。而我当时很坦率地承认自己毫无经验。嗯。那次初体验既美好又略带尴尬，甚至在我这边感觉有点...几乎是勉强为之。

No. She I believe she came out of a relationship of eight years, so she had quite a lot of experience. And I was quite open about the fact that I didn't have any experience. Mhmm. And that first time was both beautiful, little awkward, and a little a little forced almost on my end.

意思是，我并非真心想要，但觉得应该这么做。具体指什么？

Meaning, I didn't really want to, but I thought I should. Meaning what?

不，不。我是愿意的，但'勉强'这部分其实源于我后来发现的问题。当时我并未意识到这是个更严重的问题——我很难达到高潮。由于是第一次，我也没多想。

No. No. I wanted to, but the forced bit is actually with a problem that I discovered. And I didn't really know that it was a a larger issue until then, but it was that I had great trouble getting to an orgasm. And that was my first time, so I didn't think too much of it.

但我脑海里几乎有种执念：这事必须发生。就像，理应如此。毕竟我是个男人。所以...是的。从这个角度说，是我自己心理上的强迫。

But I almost like, in my head, I had that picture of it must happen. Like, it is supposed to happen. Like, I'm a man. Like so it was yeah. It was, in that sense, forced in my own mind.

我感觉自己在达到性高潮或射精时花费了较长时间？

And I felt that I was taking long in achieving an orgasm or in ejaculating?

我想是在达到性高潮方面。

In I think achieving an orgasm.

这两者并不相同，明白吗？

They're not the same. You know?

不，不。嗯。好的。是的。

No. No. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

你当时是如何体验的？感到惊讶？好奇？焦虑？还是担忧？

And you experienced that how? You were surprised? You were curious? You were anxious? You were worried?

那对你来说意味着什么，如果确实有含义的话？

You were what what what did that represent, if anything?

嗯。我想我当时有点担心它不会发生。

Mhmm. I think I was somewhat worried that it would not happen.

嗯。之前呢？

Mhmm. Before?

不太算是。之前没有是因为我缺乏经验，真正了解嗯。直到那时。我和当时交往的第一个女孩亲密时，事情发展到某个节点，她说，其实你不一定非要达到高潮。

Not so no. Not before because I didn't have the experience to really know Mhmm. Until then. And there came a point while we were intimate, me and and that first girl that I dated back then. And and she's it came to a point where she said, it like, you don't have to orgasm per se.

我们不必强求任何事。理性上这完全合理，但情感上，我不确定是否真觉得自己失败，但感觉像是，可这应该发生才对，是吧？为什么就是不行呢？这种想法反而让事情变得勉强。

We don't have to force anything. And rationally, that made complete sense. But emotionally, was like, I'm not sure if I really felt like a failure, but I felt like, yeah, but it should happen, right? Like, why can't it happen? And that made it forced.

到最后，我甚至不确定是否真的发生了。或者就算发生，也是我自己促成的。后来通过交往的其他女孩，我意识到这是个更普遍的问题。我认为主要原因在于压力或表现焦虑，或者无论你怎么称呼这类情况。

And in the end, I'm not even sure if it happened anymore. Or if it happened, I did it myself. And I came to know after other girls that I dated that that was a larger issue. I think it's mostly caused by stress or performance anxiety or however you want to call it, something along those lines.

你怎么称呼它？

What do you call it?

我想我会称之为——荷兰语里有个美妙的词汇，不确定你是否知道英文翻译。

I think I would call it There's a a beautiful Dutch word for it. I'm not sure if you know the English translation.

害怕失败？

Fear of failure?

对失败的恐惧。是的。我我认为这可能是其中的一个关键因素。我称之为对表现失败的恐惧。当我最终遇到我的前女友时，我注意到自己也有同样的问题。

Fear of failure. Yeah. I I think that's maybe one of the key factors there. I would call it fear of failure to perform. And what I noticed when I eventually met my ex girlfriend, I had the same issue.

起初，我们第一次亲密时，她对我试图自己完成感到有些震惊，因为我能想象你并不是每天都会遇到有这种问题的男性。当然，很可能还有其他男性有类似的问题，有些人则是过早结束。但她相当惊讶，我们讨论了这件事。我解释说，我之前从未通过插入达到过高潮。

And initially, the first time we were intimate, she was somewhat shocked that I tried to finish myself because I can imagine you don't encounter men with this issue every day. Like, there are most likely other men that have similar issues. There are men that have issues with coming too soon. But she was quite surprised, we talked about that. And I explained that I've never been able to come from penetration before.

之后我们开始解决这个问题，我停止了自慰。一个月后，她成功让我达到了高潮。情况逐渐改善，我们或者说我能够在插入过程中达到高潮了。我认为部分原因是我们迅速坠入爱河，几乎快到不健康的程度，我简直飘飘欲仙，感觉超脱了现实世界。

And then we started working on that, and I stopped masturbating. And after a month, she was able to let me come. And then things improved, we were able to or I was able to come during penetration. And I think part of that was the fact that we fell in love so quickly, almost unhealthy quickly, that I was on cloud nine, basically. I was out of this world.

比如，我刚换了新工作。那时遇到了我的第一个女朋友。我们虽未正式确立关系，但一切进展得非常顺利。这种幸福感让我整个人都升华了。

Like, I just switched to a new job. I found my first girlfriend back then. We were not official, but things were going really great. So I just I was elevated by that feeling.

嗯。这没什么不对。没有。

Mhmm. There's nothing wrong No. With

我知道。我明白。

I know. I know.

这没有任何问题。所以我们才称之为坠入爱河。

There's nothing wrong with that. That's why we call it falling in love.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们不会称之为一步步攀登。不。好吧。就这个问题本身告诉我一些事情。你有过性高潮和射精的经历，但主要是通过自慰。

We don't call it, you know, climbing step by step. No. Okay. Tell me something just on on this issue itself. You had experience with with orgasm and ejaculation, but primarily through masturbation.

是的。

Yeah.

基本上你已经学会了如何自我释放。嗯。但不是与伴侣一起。是的。直到那时。

And you basically have learned how to let go with yourself Mhmm. But not with a partner Yeah. Until then.

嗯。是的。

Mhmm. Yes.

这其中涉及信任问题。涉及控制问题，它们基本上是坏习惯的后果。是的。当你多年主要靠自慰时，你会形成某种压力、摩擦、速度等习惯。它变得非常

There are trust issues involved. There are control issues involved, and they are basically consequences of bad habituation. Yeah. When you spend many years primarily masturbating, you develop a certain habit of pressure, friction, speed, you name it. It becomes exactly

默认模式。

The default.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。是的。

Mhmm. Yeah.

是的。量身定制。

Yeah. Tailor made.

嗯。是的。

Mhmm. Yeah.

你知道，完全按照你喜欢的方式。而且你不需要迁就任何人，不需要同步，不需要学习如何在保持与对方连接的同时，还能专注于自己的愉悦和感受。嗯。但听起来你们俩一起创造了这种状态。是的。

You know, as you exactly like it. And and you don't have to temper with anyone else, and you don't have to synchronize, and you don't have to learn how to stay connected to your own pleasure, to your own sensations, while at the same time staying connected with the other person. Mhmm. But it sounds like you were able to create that together, both of you. Yeah.

好的。是的。你当时欣喜若狂，因为那是一种美好的感觉，你有了一份新工作、一个新女友，还有初尝爱情时那种高涨的喜悦。嗯。到目前为止，一切都好。

Okay. Yeah. And you were on cloud nine because it's a beautiful feeling, and you had a new job and a new girlfriend and a very elated experience of nascent love. Mhmm. And so far, good.

那么，从什么时候开始转变，让你说出'我想念一个女人，但不想念这段关系'，或者'我想念最初的时候'这样的话？

So when does it start to turn that you say, I missed a woman. I don't miss the relationship. Or I missed the beginning.

我

I

没错，别错过接下来的内容。

don't miss what followed. Yeah.

所以我认为这段关系从一开始就变得相当艰难。而且

So I think that the relationship itself became quite difficult early on. And

艰难是指什么？

Difficult means what?

嗯。我的前女友在我们初次见面的两个月前，刚结束了一段所谓的‘情境关系’，大概持续了四五个月，也可能六个月，这段关系对她伤害很大，从她讲述的故事来看相当有毒。我觉得她从最初就非常害怕我会很快离开。在我们约会几次后，她发给我一张截图，是她删除Tinder账户的证明——我们是通过Tinder认识的。

Yeah. My ex girlfriend, two months prior to us meeting for the first time, came out of a, what you would call a situationship, I think, that lasted I'm not sure how long exactly, but four to five, maybe six months, which was also quite hard on her and, yeah, was quite toxic for as far as I have heard her stories. And I think that she, from the very start, was very scared of me leaving very early on. And after a couple of dates with my ex girlfriend, she sent me a screenshot, I believe, of her deleting her Tinder account. We met through Tinder.

我也发了一段删除交友应用的录屏给她，但我当时刚买了六个月的Tinder铂金会员，还剩三个月有效期。所以我只是删除了应用，没有注销账户。下次约会时她得知后很惊讶，质问我为什么需要留后路？为什么要保留账户当备选？我解释说我们才见过几次，虽然很享受共处时光，

And I sent a screen recording of me deleting my dating apps, but I had paid for Tinder Platinum for six months, and I still had three months remaining. So I deleted the apps, but I didn't delete the account. And she was quite surprised to hear that after the next date and asked me, like, why do you need a backup? Why do you need to keep your account as a backup? And I was like, well, we've only met a couple of times, and I really enjoyed spending time with you.

但完全无法预知未来走向。最终在压力下我还是注销了账户，因为我确实感受到了与她之间的强烈火花。这是我们第一次小争执，其实算不上争吵，毕竟我也能表达自己的观点。

But I have no clue how this will go. So under some pressure, I also deleted the accounts because I did feel all the excitement of the connection that I had with her. So that was the first little kind of discussion. It was not really a fight. Like, I I can also voice my opinion as well.

于是我表达了看法，我说，其实我不需要备份，但只是因为我已经付了六个月的费用，那很贵。谁知道会发生什么呢？我不会用它的，但我觉得她并不完全信任我不会用，可能是因为之前的经历。她有过不少恋爱和约会，很多都存在问题，就像菲尔经历过的许多关系一样。我后来意识到了这一点。

So I voice my opinion, and I was like, well, I don't need a backup, but it's just because I paid for six months, that's expensive. So who knows what happens here? I will not use it, but I think that she didn't really trust me not using it of because of previous experiences. She had quite a few relationships and dates, and many of them had their own issues like many relationships that Phil have. I realized that, of course.

告诉我我是否理解对了。我们相遇时，彼此间充满了美好的默契。

Tell me if I hear you well. When we met, there was a lot of beautiful elixir between us.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但很快地，我们是否也互相带来了焦虑、不安、脆弱、害怕被抛弃...嗯...害怕缺乏关注、害怕被忽视。是的。这些甚至在相遇前就存在了。我们把它们装进行李箱，然后在对方面前打开箱子说，帮帮我。

But also very quickly, did we bring to each other anxieties, insecurities, vulnerabilities, fear of abandonment Mhmm. Fear of lack of attention, fear of neglect. Yeah. That kind of preexisted even meeting. We brought them in the suitcase, and we opened the suitcase right in front of the other and said, help me.

可以这么说。

You could say that.

救救我。治愈我。是的。把这些糟糕的感觉从我身上带走。你们俩都这么做了吗？

Save me. Cure me. Yeah. Take all these bad feelings away from me. And both of you did so?

是的。你对自己有什么认识，又发现了什么？既然现在是我在和你对话，你发现了自己错过了什么、想要什么、需要什么、以及未曾拥有过什么？好。我们就从这里开始。

Yeah. What did you learn about yourself, and what did you discover? Since you're the one who I'm talking to, what did you discover about what you missed, what you wanted, what you needed, what you hadn't had? Yeah. Let's start with that.

我认为有几件事很早就引起了我的注意，但在当时或那一刻，我还没有完全理解。但几个月后，我开始慢慢明白，我所缺乏的那种关爱，我想在童年时期也是如此，还有在我的青春期、成长过程中、成为青少年以及二十出头的时候。我从她那里得到的关爱，可以说，正好契合了我内心孩子的需求，适合我的精神状态。

I think a couple of things that stood out to me pretty early on, that at the moment or at that moment, didn't fully comprehend yet. But after a couple of months, I started to slowly understand that the lack of affection that I lacked, I think, in childhood as well, but also in my, like, adolescence and growing up and becoming a teenager and my early twenties. The affection that I received from her matched the affection that suited my inner child, to say it like that, that suited my my mental being.

嗯。那是充满养分的海洋。

Mhmm. It was the ocean with nutrients.

是的。那是充满养分的海洋。

Yeah. That was the ocean with nutrients.

嗯。没错。

Mhmm. Exactly.

还有我们的对话，我们可以深入探讨彼此的不安全感、我们的过去、我错过的事情以及她在之前的伴侣或童年时期也错过的事情。分享这些经历，但对我来说，那种感觉尤为深刻。那种与他人在一起感到如此安全，可以敞开心扉、完全脆弱的感觉，让我觉得自己终于完全做回了自己，如果这说得通的话。当这段关系变得如此艰难、如此迅速时，我几乎从未想过要放弃那种感觉。有一次我也考虑过结束它，因为它几乎耗尽了我所有的精力。

Also the our conversations with which could both go very in-depth about our insecurities and our like our past and things that I've missed and that she. Missed in previous partners or or also in childhood And sharing those those experiences, but also the feeling of that's primarily for me was so profound. The feeling of feeling so safe with someone else to open up and be completely vulnerable and to feel like you're to feel myself like I was finally completely myself, if that makes sense. And when I like that relationship got so difficult so quick, but there almost was no hair on my head thinking that I would ever let that feeling go. There was one time that I also considered ending it because it cost me, like, all of my energy basically.

尽管如此，我还是做不到。我仍然无法结束这段关系，我想是因为我不得不承受失去那种关爱的痛苦，失去那种情感上的亲密。我们

And still, I couldn't do it. Still, I could not break that relationship because of, I think, because of the feelings of loss that I would have to endure for the affection that I would lose, the emotional intimacy that I would lose. We

需要稍作休息，请继续关注我们，看看接下来会如何发展。

have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

《我们该从何开始？》节目由Quince赞助播出。正值金秋时节，正是用能让你所有秋季出行都光彩照人的单品更新衣橱的绝佳时机。本季，Quince提供高端基础款，如50美元起的100%蒙古羊绒、可水洗真丝上衣与半裙，以及剪裁完美的牛仔服饰，价格实惠得令人难以置信。我自己就尝试过Quince的一些单品，比如蒙古羊绒披肩。

Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Quince. Fall is in full swing, which means that it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that will look great on all of your autumn outings. This season, Queen's is offering elevated essentials like 100% Mongolian cashmere from $50 washable silk tops and skirts, and perfectly tailored denim, all at prices that feel too good to be true. I've tried some Queen's items myself, like the Mongolian Cashmere Wrap.

当纽约气温骤降时，我喜欢那些既优雅又舒适的百搭单品。蒙古羊绒披肩正是如此。它是随手一披就能完美点睛的绝佳配饰，而且价格无可匹敌。这个秋天，你可以用Quince经久耐用的经典单品保持时尚与温暖。

When the temperature drops in New York City, I like having versatile pieces that are elegant and cozy. And the Mongolian Cashmere Wrap is just that. It's the perfect accessory to throw on and complete my look. And the price is unbeatable. You can keep it classic and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from Quinn's.

登录quince.com/begin即可享受订单免运费和365天退换服务。访问quince.com/begin获取免运费与365天退换权益。Quince.com/begin。

Go to quinns.com/ begin for free shipping on your order and three hundred sixty five day returns. That's quynce.com slash begin to get free shipping and three hundred sixty five day returns. Quinn's.com/begin.

有时候感觉人们已经不知道该如何行事了。疫情过后，我觉得人们似乎还在困惑：'人际接触？我们该怎么做？'

Sometimes it feels like people don't know how to act anymore. Post pandemic, I feel like people, like, are still like, oh, human contact? How do we do this?

有人在电影院里公然刷手机，连掩饰都懒得做了。我甚至见过有人在地铁上抽烟。

People openly scrolling on their phones in movie theaters, like, even trying to hide it anymore. I've seen someone, like, smoking a cigarette on the subway.

就像在说'离我远点'。这就是现在的氛围。我连基本的礼节都感受不到了，这让人受伤。如果人们现在显得不那么礼貌，归根结底，没错，你猜对了，都是疫情的影响。

Like, get away from me. It's the energy right now. I'm not even getting the pleasantries no more, and it hurts. If people seem less polite now, it all goes back to, yes, you guessed it, the pandemic.

近半数国民认为人们的行为比疫情前更加粗鲁。

Nearly half of the country believes that people's behavior is more rude than it was before the pandemic.

本周《为我解释》节目探讨：为何我们变成了一个充满混蛋的国家。每周日更新新集，各大播客平台均可收听。

This week on Explain It To Me, why we've become a nation of jerks. New episodes on Sundays wherever you get your podcasts.

最后是怎么结束的？我想了解完整的循环过程。是怎么收场的？

How did it end? Just to get a sense of the full circle. How did it end?

正式结束是在一月份，当时并没有什么特别事件导致分手。但我觉得在整个恋爱过程中，我的前女友也在处理很多与这段关系相关的内心情绪。这些情绪既来自我们的关系本身，也来自她过去的经历。就在2023年圣诞节前后，我们原本要去她父母家——这是我记忆比较清晰的片段之一。

So it officially ended January, and it ended there was no at that point, no particular event that caused the breakup. But I think I had seen that, like, throughout the relationship that my ex girlfriend also had to deal with a lot of internal emotions around the relationship as well. I think those were both a combination of the relationship itself and the past experiences that she had. And she it was right around Christmas twenty twenty three, and she we were heading to her parents actually. And this is just one of the more clearer bits that I remember.

她和我商量说，我们应该在圣诞节后结束关系，为了不辜负双方父母已经做好的安排，先把圣诞节过完再分手。其实那年早些时候我们就曾分手过一周，这不是第一次了。

And she discussed with me that she thought that we should, like, end this after Christmas and that we should just do Christmas for our parents because of everything they have they had organized. We should just do that, and after that, call it quits. And that was not not the first time we broke up for a week earlier that year

但你们当时分手是因为什么？是什么造成了这种循环？我理解你们尝试分手过几次，然后不是你回头就是她回头。这个循环到底是怎么回事？

But you would break up because what? What would create the cycle? I understand that you try to break up a few times, and you would come back or she would come back. So what what what was the circle? You know?

当你说关系迅速恶化时，

When you say it became bad quick,

我

I

我是说，你表达得很清楚。情况恶化得很快，但我就是无法忍受失去身体上的亲密、那种联系和情感上的亲近，尽管它变得越来越紧张，我能依赖的部分越来越少。我紧紧抓住它曾经的样子，以及我知道它可能再次成为的样子，我想要找回的那种状态。但事情并没有那样发展。所以当你提到圣诞节特别突出时，为什么这个念头会终结？那是对话的一部分。

mean, you're you're very clear. It became bad quick, but I just couldn't bear the thought of losing the the physical affection, the connection, the emotional intimacy, even though it was becoming more and more fraught and I could rely on it less and less, I was holding on to what it once had been and what I now knew it could be possible and what I wanted to find my way back to. But that's not how it happened. So if you gave me, when you say that Christmas stands out, why this thought should end? That was part of the conversation.

每次出现问题，你们中就会有人说，这永远行不通。嗯。或者发生一些事表明，这是欺骗。这不可能。尽量具体描述这些情况。

Every time there was an issue, one of you would say, this will never work. Mhmm. Or something happened that said, this is fraud. This is not possible. And just be as concrete as can be.

我的意思是，我知道我在广撒网，而且我——

I mean, I know I'm I'm fishing with a broad net, and I'm

我理解。是的。在关系初期遇到困难时，我们总会陷入以特定模式收场的讨论——比如她会对我提出要求，而我觉得自己当时无法满足，比如更多相处时间。其实关系一开始就相当艰难，我算是比较回避型的人。初期主要是回避，而她则相当焦虑型，所以需要更多亲密感。

I understand. Yeah. So in the beginning of the relationship when we would face difficulties, we would both get into discussions that would end in dynamics such as she would expect things of me that I felt like I couldn't give to her at that point, more time together, while the relationship was already quite difficult in the beginning, I was quite avoidant, I would say. So what avoidant in the beginning primarily, and she was quite anxious. So she would need more closeness.

我会稍微退缩，因为关系很快出现了酸涩的节点。我仍然深爱她，不想失去联结，但我觉得需要一点空间来理清思绪。而这会让她认为我在逃避，或者觉得这段关系对我没有对她那么重要。这种模式后来逐渐改变，比如在后半段关系中，我不再陷入这种模式，而是尝试倾听她的观点——因为我也经常在表达自己观点时感到不被听见。

I would pull back a little because the relationship got sour points or sour bits quite quickly. I still loved her dearly and I didn't want to lose the connection, but I felt like I needed a little bit of space to get my head back on my on my body. And that would mean that she would think that I was just putting away and, like, that the relationship didn't matter to me or not as much as it mattered to her back then. And that dynamic changed over time, like, at the second part, let's say, like the second half of our relationship, I wouldn't enter that dynamic anymore. I would just like hear try to hear her points because I also felt unheard at many occasions when I tried to voice my perspective.

我意识到她的情绪非常强烈，她可能变得极度情绪化——这也是她从一开始就坦诚相告的，她的情绪可能在正负两极都很强烈。在关系后半段，我基本上就是在努力应对这种动荡局面。

And I saw that her emotions were quite serious and she could get really emotional, and that's also something that she was very honest about from the very start that she could get very emotional in both positive and negative ways. And I just try to deal the second half of the relationship, I try to deal with the turmoil of the of the relationship, basically.

然后做什么？然后做什么？

And do what? And do what?

举个例子，我很久以前注册了一个OnlyFans账号，虽然早已不再使用，但在恋爱期间仍然保留着。某天深夜——我记得那晚我们睡得很晚——她突然问我是否有这个账号。我不清楚她是怎么想到这点的，但感觉她是在寻找某些理由。这也涉及到我的亲密关系问题，让她担心我可能与其他女性有染或心里装着别人，我想这正是她产生这类想法的原因。

So, for example, the fact that I made an an OnlyFans account long ago, which I had used long ago and which I still had did not use in the relationship. But she asked me in the middle of the night, I believe we were going to bed late that night. And she she asked me whether or not I have an on defense against. I'm not sure how she came to that, but I think she was also looking for reasons. And this is also where my intimacy issue comes into play, which also made her insecure about me maybe being with another woman, having somebody else on my mind, I think that that plays into why she was thinking things like that.

她当时问'是不是还有什么我不知道的事？'，我坦白说账号确实还在，但从恋爱开始就再没用过。这个隐瞒让她非常震惊。接着她要查我手机，我的防御心立刻上来了——'你为什么不信任我？'毕竟我们之前就存在信任问题。

Like, is there something else going on here that I don't know? And she asked that, and I told her, well, I still have an account, but I have not used it ever since and also not when I was dating, I believe. And she was quite shocked by that and the fact that I didn't tell her. And then she wanted to look at my phone, and I would become quite defensive because I I was like, why don't you trust me? Because we've had trust issues before.

这种不被信任的感觉很糟糕。还有一次亲密时，她在我私处发现一根头发，坚信是别人的。我想这又牵扯到我们时冷时热的亲密关系带来的不安全感...抱歉我讲得有些混乱，如果你需要打断随时告诉我。

So I felt, yeah, not not seen before. There was also an an instance where we were intimate together, and she found a hair around my genitalia. And she was convinced that it was somebody else's. And I think this also comes into an insecurity bit about our intimacy being so hot and cold as well because we developed I'm going all over the place. So if you if you want to intervene, let me know.

我会的。你怎么知道的？

I will. How did you know?

因为每次解释这些事时，我自己都能感觉到逻辑很跳跃...

Yeah. Because I know when I start to explain this that I go all over the place, but

但你有些迷失了。这种迷失让你和真实情绪之间产生了隔阂。

But you get lost a little bit. You get lost and you create a kind of a distance between you and the emotions.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以你是说从一开始就存在信任问题

So you're telling me there were trust issues from the start

嗯。

Mhmm.

你可能没做太出格的事，但你的所作所为刚好足以引发她的担忧、不信任和猜疑。然后她又会做些刚好足以刺激你疏远的事。是啊，你没有像你早已学会的那样在情感上给予支持。所以很早开始，你们双方就触动了彼此最脆弱的部分。

That you may not have done big things, but you did just enough to elicit her worry and her distrust and her suspicion. And then she would do just enough to instigate your distancing. Yeah. You're not being emotionally available as you had well learned. And so, quite early on, each of you set the other one up in their most vulnerable parts.

你退缩，她就会起疑心并焦虑不安。当时是什么情况？有其他女性介入吗？有涉及色情内容吗？有什么东西可以围绕这些做文章吗？

You withdraw, she gets suspicious and agitated. What was the presence? Were there other women involved? Was there porn involved? Was there anything to play around all of this?

在我和前女友交往前有过几次约会，Instagram关注列表里还留着几个女生，我也关注了她们。但我心里已经完全没想这些了。偶尔可能会想起，但绝不是出于浪漫情感之类的。以前刚开始约会时我看过色情内容，约会期间我也...

I had a couple of dates before my ex girlfriend, and I still had a couple on my Instagram followers list, and I followed them. But they were not at on my mind at all anymore. Like, I might think of them occasionally, but not in a romantic sense or anything like that. I watched porn back in the back in the days before I started dating. And while I was dating, I

我猜是偶尔或日常活动？

I guess every once in a while or daily activity?

开始约会前，我几乎每天都看，期间可能有一周不看，然后接下来一周每天都看，之后又变成隔天看。所以频率有点波动，但相当频繁。

Before I started dating, I think I watched almost daily with periods of maybe a week of now watching and then a week of each each day of the week and then maybe every other day. So that fluctuated a little, but quite frequently.

那它是怎么结束的？我之前问过你，但我觉得我们还没得到答案。

And how did it end? I asked you that before, but I don't think we got to the answer.

这段关系。

The relationship.

对。我是说，怎么结束的——有一系列结束的开端，然后可以说有个最终的结束。然后还有内心那个尚未发生的结束。对，对。

Yeah. I mean, how did it there is the the beginning of a series of endings, and then there is the final ending, so to speak. And then there is the ending inside that hasn't happened. Yeah. Yeah.

所以这里有三个结束。

So there are three endings here.

嗯，是的。我想说是这段关系真正的结束。我们在2024年1月正式分手，之后我试着——分手后我每周大概给她打三到四次电话，她很明确表示不想继续了。而我一直过度分析这段关系的结束。

Mhmm. Yeah. The real ending of the relationship, I would say. We officially broke up in January 2024, and then we tried I I called her maybe three or four times each week once after the relationship ended, and she was quite clear that she did not want to continue. And I just kept overanalyzing the end of the relationship.

在我第四次打电话给她后，我们结束了那次持续了几个小时的谈话。几天后，她让我去找她谈谈。她想看看能否最后一次尝试修复关系。于是我们从2024年2月试到3月初，最后才真正结束。

And after I called her that fourth time, we ended that conversation that which also lasted a couple of hours, I believe. And a couple of days later, she asked me to visit her and to talk. And she wanted to to see and try if you could fix things a last time, one last time. So we tried that from like February 2024 until a little bit into March. And then it finally really ended, I would say.

我能打断一下吗？我听到你说的是，我以一种非常疏离的方式长大

May I stop you? Yeah. One thing I'm hearing you say is I grew up in a very detached way

嗯。

Mhmm.

与那些善良且有爱心的人相处，但他们并不特别善于表达或情感共鸣。

With people that were kind and loving, but not particularly expressive or emotionally attuned.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为你告诉我的是，当我开始感受时，就像当场把水龙头开到最大。嗯。我不是先开一点再逐渐加大水流，而是一下子开到最大。最初的感受瞬间变成决堤之水，直接导致痴迷。

And part of what I think you're telling me is when I start to feel, it's like opening a faucet at maximum capacity on the spot. Mhmm. I don't open the faucet a little bit and then increase the stream. I open it right to the maximum, And the first feeling becomes a watershed instantly leading to obsession.

是的。我觉得至少部分是这样，因为我之前试图说过，那个我第一次约会的女孩。嗯。我注意到我对她很快产生了强烈的感情，我自己也很清楚这一点。所以我理性的一面在说，这不合逻辑。我知道你现在神魂颠倒，但现实是...

Yeah. I I think there's some truth to that at least because what I tried to say earlier, that that first girl that I dated Mhmm. I noticed that I very quickly developed a lot of feelings for her, and I was quite aware of that as well. So I had that rational part of my brain saying, this does not make sense. I know that you're head over heels right now, but this is reality.

这只是你第一次约会对象，所以清醒一点。这很可能不是真实的。结果确实不是真的。我花了几个星期才走出来，当时有点难过。之后我继续约会，继续前行。

And this is just the first girl that you dated, so get your head back on. This is most likely not real. And it ended up not being real. And it took a couple of weeks, and I was somewhat sad about that. And then I continued dating, and I moved on.

但这非常...这些感受是非常真实的。

But it's very it is very real. The feelings are very real.

哦，是的。是的。

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

或许你会说，我才刚认识这个人。凭什么我就已经在幻想整个未来生活，诸如此类？但那些感受无比真实，且毫无过滤。哇，这非常有趣。

Maybe what you'd say is I just met this person. On what basis am I already imagining a whole life, etcetera, etcetera? But the feelings are very real, and there is no filter. Wow. It's very interesting.

情感上你如何冲动地投入某事，淹没它，淹没自己，试图用理性克制，却丝毫未果，全速前进。而在性方面，你却以某种方式实践延迟满足。你克制着。你克制着。你和对方一起克制着。

The gap between how you emotionally rush into something, flood it, flood yourself, try to hold back with reason, but don't succeed one iota, go at full speed. And then sexually, you practice in some way delayed gratification. You hold in. You hold in. You hold in with the person.

这与情感上发生的情况完全相反。是的。一方面你如泉涌般倾泻，另一方面你却压抑、压抑、再压抑。唯有独处时，在自己双手的完全监督与控制下才能释放。不知你是否曾思考过这种情感倾泻与性压抑之间的鸿沟。

It's the exact opposite from what happens to you emotionally. Yeah. In one place, you're like gushing out, and in the other one, you're holding, holding, holding. And only alone, under complete supervision and control of your own hands can you let go. And wonder if you've ever thought about that, the gap between the emotional gush and the sexual withholding.

其实我不这么认为。至少不是以那种方式。但这完全说得通。

I don't think so, actually. Not in that way. But it makes complete sense.

先沉淀一下。不必立刻回答我，让这个想法着陆，然后告诉我是否、什么、如何。

Sit with this for a minute. You don't have to answer me right away, but just let this land and then tell me if, what, how.

我想你刚才描述的情况也适用于我——几乎一有机会或感到足够安全时，我的情感就会如瀑布般奔涌而出。那种安全感对我来说如此罕见，以至于我认为难以达到高潮的问题，或多或少，甚至可能是更难以跨越的障碍。我觉得这两者也相互关联。嗯。因为随着与前女友相处越来越自在，我从一开始就注意到并知道，这很可能是我头脑中的问题。

I think that the thing you just described as well with my as soon as I get the chance almost or feel safe enough of my, like, emotion gushing out and, like, just becoming a waterfall, basically. That sense of safety that I feel at that moment feels so or for me, so rare that I think the fact that I I have the the problem with getting to an orgasm is more or less, or maybe even harder of a of a of a hurdle to overcome. I think those two are interconnected as well. Mhmm. Because as soon as I felt more and more comfortable with my ex girlfriend, I noticed and I knew that from the very start that it was most likely something that happens in my head.

所以越是未经过滤的，或者你称之为失控的状态，我认为这不是重点。而是情感的分水岭越大，性方面的克制也就越强。

So the more unfiltered or what you may call out of control, that I I don't think it's about But the more the bigger the emotional watershed Yeah. The bigger the sexual restraint.

我想是的。也许吧。

I think so. Maybe.

你在用一方面控制另一方面。

You're controlling one with the other.

你是说情感联结越深，难度就越大吗？嗯，你是这个意思吗？

Do you mean that the the bigger the emotional connection almost, the harder the Mhmm. Is that what you mean?

是的。但我不仅仅是指联结的质量，我还在说你感到完全被占据的那种状态，就像一种痴迷。

Yeah. But I'm not just talking about the quality of the connection. I'm also talking about the fact that you feel completely taken over, and you like, it's an obsession.

嗯。

Mhmm.

坠入爱河就是一种痴迷。

Now falling in love is an obsession.

嗯。

Mhmm.

它具有痴迷的所有特征。

It has all the features of an obsession.

那种成瘾性。

That Of addiction.

是的。但这是一种质性的联系，你知道的，相似性。之后发生的一部分情况是，我们开始稍微让自己稳定下来。明白吗？对。

Yeah. But it's it's a qualitative connection, you know, resemblance. And so part of what happens is that after that, we start to ground ourselves a little bit. You know? Yeah.

让我脚踏实地，这样我就不会像一片叶子，随时可能被对方说的、做的或没做的任何事吹向各个方向。因为我们体内有一个调节系统，有时我们的思想调节身体，有时身体调节思想。

Let me put my feet and ground myself so that I am not like a leaf that can be blown in every direction at any moment by anything the other person says, does, or doesn't. And because we have a regulatory system inside of us, sometimes our mind regulates our body and sometimes our body regulates our mind.

是的。

Yeah.

我是说，它们以一种非常相互依赖的方式来回作用。但我只是注意到情感的泛滥与性欲的克制之间的对比？

I mean, they go back and forth in a very interdependent way with each other. But I'm just noticing the contrast between the flooding of the emotional and the restraining of the sexual?

我认为这是深藏在我内心的一个问题。嗯。就是如何同时掌控情绪和身体，让两者达到平衡。我觉得我...

I think that's one part of the question deeper in me Mhmm. Is how to gain control over both the emotion and my body as well, and get those two in balance. I think that I'm

重点不在于获得控制权。而是在与他人产生强烈连接时，不失去与自我的联系。关键在于保持稳定。如果此刻你和我站在办公室里，我会让你站着，然后走过来轻轻推你。你需要通过站稳来抵抗这股推力，同时接纳这个推力而非向后倾倒——因为后者会让你感到不稳定、混乱且缺乏支撑结构。

kind It's not about gaining control. It's about not losing the connection with yourself while you are experiencing an intense connection with someone else. It's about staying grounded. If you stood now with me in the office, I would ask you to stand, and I would come and I would just push against you. And you would actually resist by staying steady while at the same time welcoming the push rather than falling backwards because it feels so unstable, so chaotic, so without structure.

明白吗？我们始终在结构与自由流动之间切换。我们在结构与自发、在突发事件与既定构建之间来回摆动。而你现在经历的是：一切都变成了突发事件，构建的部分消失了。这就会让人感到恐惧。

You know? We have always a structure and a loose movement. We go back and forth between structure and spontaneity, between what happens and what is built. And what you experience is it becomes all happens, and the build gets lost. And that gets scary.

是啊。

Yeah.

按钮订阅苹果播客上的《Astaire办公室时间》。

We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you wanna listen to this session ad free, click the try free button to subscribe to Astaire's office hours on Apple Podcasts.

所以你结束了那段关系——回到你最初的问题——你说那里发生的事并不美好。我不完全理解为何你称之为如此有毒、消极且艰难。但与此同时，当你说'我无法释怀'时，具体指什么？我在每个女人身上寻找她的影子？我不断回忆美好部分，却忘记我们最终停驻和终结的地方？

So you end your relationship, because I'm going back to your original question, and you say, it wasn't really good what happened there. I don't exactly understand why you call it so toxic and negative and hard. But at the same time, when you say I can't get over it, means what? I look for her in every other woman. I keep remembering the good, and I forget where we landed and where we ended.

我无法接受这个失败。我们究竟在执着什么？我

I can't accept the failure. What are we holding on to? I

我一直觉得自己有些自尊心问题。比如，过去我有严重的痤疮，胸部和背部都留下了疤痕。这影响了我的感情生活，让我总是把女性推开。嗯。直到有一天，我有了想要孩子的愿望，希望组建家庭，找到一个长期伴侣。

always felt I also had some self esteem issues. Like, I had severe acne in the past, which also left scarring on my chest and my back. And that played a usual and why I always pushed women away romantically. Mhmm. Until there came a point where I had a child wish, I hope to start a family one day and find a partner and hopefully for a long long term.

所以我必须克服自己的不安全感，开始约会。每次遇到新女孩，情况都会有所改善。经过六个月的约会，我找到了前女友，那时我感到精疲力尽，遇见她就像耶稣降临般神奇，我们之间有着极好的化学反应。现在我很害怕，虽然理智上知道我能再次找到爱情，但情感上，我的思绪总是回到她身上。我紧握着我们曾经拥有的东西，担心在其他地方难以找到同样的感觉，却忘记了新的关系可能比与前女友的关系更健康。

So I had to push through my own insecurities and started dating. And each time I met a new girl, things improved in that sense. And after six months of dating and finding my ex girlfriend, I felt so exhausted, and it almost felt like like the coming of Jesus that that I found that that girl and that we had such great chemistry, it felt like, and we did at the time, that I now am so afraid that I know that I can find love again. It's not that I rashly don't know that, but emotionally, my emotions just continue, like, continue to end up with her in my mind. So I keep holding on to the the things that we have and thinking about how difficult it might be to find that elsewhere, forgetting the fact recently, I know, but forgetting the fact that it might be way more healthy than the relationship that I had with my ex.

我理解那段关系很复杂，你可能难以确切把握其中的毒性。但我不想把责任全推给她，我也犯了错。她犯了错。我们都有各自的经历带入了这段关系。现在对我来说，最困难的是感到自己不够好，害怕找到一个愿意接受真实的我的人会有多难，当然，对的人会接受的。

And I understand that that relationship was so complex that you maybe don't it's hard to get a grasp of what exactly that toxicity means. But I also don't want to throw her under the bus, and I've made mistakes. She made mistakes. We both have experiences that we carried over and carried into a relationship. And now for me, the most difficult part and the thing that I struggle with the most is the fact of that I feel inadequate, that I feel that I'm also scared about how hard it can be to find a woman that is willing to accept me for who I am, and the right person will accept that, of course.

接受真实的我，包括我在亲密关系中的挣扎。我喜欢亲密，热爱所爱女性的身体。但我也完全理解这对许多女性来说可能是个大障碍。这也在我的脑海中盘旋：如何克服重新开始约会的恐惧。我希望找到一个愿意接受这一点，并愿意与我共同探索的人，这其实也是件美好的事。

But accept me for who I am and the struggles that I have with intimacy, because I love to be intimate, and I I love the the body of a woman that I love. But with that, I can completely understand that for many women, that that can be a great obstacle. That's something that plays in my mind as well. Like, how how I'm I overcoming the the fact that I need to start dating again. I hope to find someone who accepts that and is willing to discover that with me, which is also a beautiful thing, actually.

我同意。我同意。不过——没有‘不过’，这可能不是一个分水岭。这一次可能会以非常不同的方式开始。

I I agree. I agree. But and no but, and this may not be a watershed. This one may start very differently.

爱情

Love

故事，我刚才在想它们就像音乐作品。是的。它们以不同的调性、节奏、音量和前奏开始。你已经经历过一次了。是的。

stories, I was just thinking they're like pieces of music. Yeah. They start in a different key with a different rhythm, with a different volume, with a different introduction. You've known one. Yeah.

这是第一次。它非常、非常重要。但严格来说，它并不决定后续所有事情的发展方向。

It's the first one. It's a very, very important one. But it's not by definition the one that shapes everything that follow.

不是的。

No.

你明白吗？

You know?

我明白这一点。

I know that.

所以下一次相遇可能会缓慢得多。下一次，你或许可以说，嘿，我想告诉你一些关于我在性和情感方面的事情。随着我们关系加深，这会发生变化。但最初，我最享受的是取悦你，但这可能不是以我们被教导的那种可预测的异性恋常规方式。与其希望它不发生并试图隐藏，不如直接把它当作你的一部分，你知道它会随时间改变。

So the next encounter may be much slower. The next encounter, you may basically say, hey, I wanna tell you something about me sexually and emotionally. It changes as we get more connected. But at first, I have enjoyed pleasing you more than anything, but it may not be in this one predictable heteronormative way that we are all taught is the. And to actually, instead of hoping it doesn't happen and trying to hide it, you actually put it right up there as something about you that you know and that changes with time.

反过来也一样。当男性出现早泄时，他们有时需要说，你知道，我需要真正放松下来，情况会改变。但有时一开始会有点，你知道，过于急切，我没有真正在自己的身体里保持足够的踏实感。是的。我认为仅仅将其视为表现焦虑是误解了重点。

It's the same thing in reverse. When a man has rapid ejaculation, they sometimes need to say, you know, I need to get really comfortable and things change. But sometimes at first, get a little, you know, ahead of myself, and I don't really stay grounded enough in my own body. Yeah. I think that just talking about it as a performance anxiety misses the boat.

嗯。这某种程度上，你知道，是遵循了一整套男性能力标准，认为你必须能够表现。表现远不如取悦重要。取悦对方，你自然能表现得很好。具体怎么做并不重要。

Mhmm. That's kind of, you know, adhering to a whole set of male competencies that that you need to be able to to perform. Performing is much less important than the pleasing. Please them, and you'll perform perfectly fine. It doesn't matter what you do.

不要把焦点放在‘我能表现好吗？我能胜任吗？我的身体会背叛我吗？我能控制这一切吗？我能强行达到高潮吗？’这些问题本身往往会让情况变得更糟。是的，我想说的是，少一点表现，多一点愉悦。

And put the focus not on, can I perform and can I be adequate and can I be competent and will will my body betray me and will I, you know, not be able to control this and will my way into orgasm? That in itself usually kind of makes it worse. Yeah. I thought. Less performance, more pleasing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但同样，不同的爱情故事有不同的前奏、不同的节奏、不同的氛围，因此也有不同的歌词、不同的言语、不同的情节。每个人都会谈论，比如‘你从过往感情史中学到了什么？’这是个可以问你的美妙问题。‘你希望不再重蹈覆辙的错误是什么？’‘上次没做成的事，这次你想多尝试什么？’

But also, different love stories, different musical introductions, different rhythm, different ambiance, and therefore, different lyrics, different words, different story. And anybody will talk about, you know, what have you learned from your relationship history? That's a beautiful question one can ask you. What's a mistake you hope you won't make again? What's something that you would like to do that you didn't do last time or be more than do?

随着年龄增长，每个人都会带着更多故事而来，你也会积累更多故事。

And as you grow older, everybody will come with more stories and you will come with more stories.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这些将成为你的情感履历。是的，不是那种求职用的工作经历，而是深刻影响你生活方式的情感记录。所以你问我如何走出初恋？

And that will become your relationship resume. Yeah. The one that you don't bring to work that doesn't talk about all the jobs you've had, but the one that determines so much about how you live. Yeah. So you asked me how do I get over my first relationship?

我不确定我们刚才讨论的就是答案。但既然快到尾声了，告诉我，这段对话对你而言意味着什么？

And I don't know that that's exactly what we did. But tell me, since we arrive at the end, what is this conversation like for you?

可以说非常，在某种程度上几乎令人耳目一新，我从这次谈话中得到的收获。对吧？嗯。我认为最重要的是视角，你刚才解释了我关于性取向的困扰如何实际上也能为我的个性增添深度，并将这种深度带给新的伴侣。这也与我因痤疮留下的疤痕而产生的不安全感类似。

Very I would say almost refreshing in a sense, what I get out of this talk right now. Right? Mhmm. I think perspective, most of all, how you just explained how the issue that I have around my sexuality, how that can actually also bring depth to my, like, my personality and bringing my personality and that depth to a new partner. So that's also something along the lines of the insecurities that I have around the scars that my that the acne left.

这几乎成了我开始当作奖杯佩戴的东西。就像在说，这就是真实的我，接受与否随你。

That's also something that I almost started to wear as a trophy. It's like, yeah, but this is me, so take it or leave it.

不。这不是我。这是此刻与你相处时，我生命中的某个阶段。你不是静止不变的。你不是无法改变的。

No. Is not me. This is me at this particular moment of my life with you in this situation. You're not static. You're not unchangeable.

你只是在学习。你正在学习一个全新的经验领域。

And you're just learning. You're learning a whole new realm of experience.

确实如此。

Definitely.

所以那句'接受真实的我，要么接受要么离开'。你要接受我因为这就是全部。这就是我。我会帮助你。

So that sentence of you take me as I am. Take it or leave it. You accept me because this is it. This is me. I'm gonna help you.

这并不意味着你要找个不断批评你的人。但别把自己框死。我长话短说因为我们必须结束了。是的。别给自己设限。

That doesn't mean you find someone who constantly criticizes you. But you don't don't put yourself into a box. And I'm saying this in very short way because we have to stop. Yeah. But don't put yourself into a box.

让自己成长。让自己经历过程。让自己学习。让自己犯严重的错误，或者仅仅是错误，又或是那些你认为毫无意义的抉择。从这个意义上讲，做自己的好朋友。

Let yourself grow. Let yourself process. Let yourself learn. Let yourself make bad mistakes, or simply mistakes for that matter, or choices that you don't think lead anywhere. Be a good friend to yourself in that sense.

用你对待朋友的方式与自己对话，如果他们正经历同样的事情。

Speak to yourself the way you would speak if a friend was doing the same thing.

是的。这也是我投入大量精力去实践的事情。好吧。确实如此。

Yeah. That's also something that I've quite a lot of work on. Okay. Yeah.

所以这不是单一事件。它是发展性的，意味着它是生命的历史，生活的故事。我打算在句末加上省略号，因为我们无法在此刻给出完美的总结。

So it's not one thing. It's developmental, meaning it's it's history of life, story of life. And I'm just gonna put three dots at the end of the sentence because we won't be able to put a nice bow here.

不。不。不。过去一年我学到了很多，现在仍在学习。很多时候，正因为这段心碎的经历，我反而感到前所未有的鲜活。

No. No. No. I've learned a lot over the last year and I still do. And there are many times that I feel actually so alive because of this heartbreak as well.

听起来可能有点奇怪。但

Maybe sounds a little weird. But

痛苦却鲜活，这两者往往相伴而生。非常感谢你。

In pain, but alive, these two go very much together as well. Thank you so much.

也谢谢你。

Thank you too.

这是一次Astaire来电，一次远程录制于世界某两地的干预性电话咨询。若您有问题想与Astaire探讨，并能在四、五十分钟的通话中得到解答，请给她发送语音留言，Esther或许会致电给您。将您的问题发送至producer@EstherPerel.com。《与Esther Perel同行：从何开始》由Magnificent Noise制作，隶属于Vox Media播客网络，与《纽约杂志》及The Cut联合出品。

This was an Astaire calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire that could be answered in a forty or fifty minute phone call, send her a voice message, and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer@EstherPerel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.

制作团队成员包括Eric Newsome、Destry Sibley、Sabrina Farhi、Kristen Muller和Julian Hatt。原创音乐及附加制作由Paul Schneider负责。节目执行制片人为Esther Perel和Jesse Baker。我们还要特别感谢Courtney Hamilton、Mary Alice Miller和Jack Saul。

Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.