本集简介
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仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
本系列中出现的所有声音都不是埃丝特·佩雷尔的持续来访者。
None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel.
《我们该从哪里开始》每一集都是一次性的心理咨询对话。
Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one time counseling session.
为保护隐私，姓名和部分可识别特征已做处理，但他们的声音和故事都是真实的。
For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.
大家最近怎么样？
What's up y'all?
我是斯凯勒·迪金斯，七次WNBA全明星、奥运金牌得主，也是一位妈妈。
I'm Skyler Diggins, seven time WNBA All Star, Olympic gold medalist, and mom.
我是卡西迪·哈伯德，从事体育报道近二十年，采访过众多体育界名人和重大事件。
And I'm Cassidy Hubbard, host and reporter for nearly twenty years covering the biggest names and stories in sports.
也是一位妈妈。
And mom.
这是《也是一位妈妈》，一个为运动员、变革者和各类妈妈打造的社群，5月14日上线。
And this is and mom, a community for athletes, game changers, and moms of all kinds, dropping May 14.
和我们一起加入吧。
Tap in with us.
面对灾难，你需要具备哪些准备？
What does it take to be prepared for disaster?
你得有信心。
You have to be confident.
你得保持冷静。
You have to be calm.
你会做到完美吗？
Will you be perfect?
不会。
No.
但关键是你要有方向感，这样事情发生时就不会让你措手不及。
But the idea is that you'll have your bearings, and this won't be something new to you.
本周《给我讲明白》：如何时刻做好准备，以免临时抱佛脚。
This week on Explain It To Me, how to stay ready so you don't have to get ready.
新节目每周日上线，各大播客平台都能收听。
New episode Sundays wherever you get your podcasts.
我和FRIENDSLIVE的伴侣现在正处于关系的十字路口，我们在一起十年了，正在思考未来的方向：是继续走下去，还是各自分开更好。
My partner at FRIENDSLIVE right now, we were sort of at a crossroads in our relationship of ten years trying to figure out where our paths are going and if our own individual path makes sense to keep together or if it makes more sense to go our separate ways.
这个人，真的是我该共度一生的吗？
Is this the person that I'm meant to be with?
这个问题，很多人都在问自己，我也一样。
Is a question that many people ask themselves and also me.
他们都是三十五岁上下。
They're in their mid thirties.
他们到了一个地步，生活再也无法照旧下去。
They came to a place where things could not continue as usual.
他们必须做出改变。
They had to make a change.
有一段时间，我们过得特别艰难，最后决定把关系降级——也就是所谓的‘降频相处’：住在同一个屋檐下，但各自独立生活，看看能不能摆脱原来那种困住我们的模式。
There was a period of time where we were really struggling, and we eventually made the decision to what we called a de escalation of our relationship to see what it would look like to live independently but together in the same space and try to see if we can get out of the dynamic that we were in.
这事必须得做，因为咱们俩谁都没法再继续那样下去了。
It had to happen because neither of
我们俩都没法再按原来的方式继续了。
us could continue in the way that it was going.
于是他们建立了一种新模式，虽然还住在一起，但不再以伴侣身份相处，目的是减少情绪对抗、平息长期的激烈冲突，那些问题在关系里已经变得无处不在。
So they created a new structure so that they could continue to live together under the same roof but not be in a romantic relationship, to find a way to lessen the reactivity and the chronic escalations and the high conflict that became pervasive in the relationship.
情况真的好转了。
And things have really improved.
这反而更接近他们一直想要的那种关系。
This is actually closer to the relationship they've always wanted.
随着时间推移，我们开始觉得，等等。
As time went on, we were like, wait.
我们其实挺喜欢现在这种新状态的，但这到底意味着什么？
We're actually liking how we're feeling in this new arrangement, but what does that mean?
是因为我们之间还留着些什么吗？
Like, is it because there's still something there?
还是说，我们感觉更好，是因为分手了，或者冲突减少了？
Or is it because of the breakup or the de escalation that we're feeling better?
最担心的是什么？
What's the big fear?
你知道的。
You know?
以前可是深爱着对方的。
Loved each other before.
现在到底是什么在阻止我们？
What's stopping at this time?
你明白我的意思吧？
You know what I mean?
但他们还是害怕。
But they are afraid.
如果我们重新走到一起，再做情侣，还能维持住这种状态吗？
If we reengage, if we become a romantic couple again, will we be able to sustain this?
还是说这一切又会再次崩塌？
Or is all of this going to fall apart again?
我有一部分想再试一次，但另一部分又担心我们根本不知道该怎么让这段关系长久下去。
There's part of me that wants to try again, there's part of me that's afraid that we don't know how to make it work.
你懂的。
You know?
我们会不会又回到以前的老样子？
Will we just fall right back into the old patterns?
最后会不会互相怨恨，毁掉现在好不容易建立起来的一切？
Will we end up resenting each other and ruining what we've established?
我们不想毁掉现在拥有的东西。
We don't wanna ruin what we have.
我们希望它能更进一步，但又不相信这份‘更进一步’真的能长久维持。
We would like it to lead to more, but we don't trust that the more is something that we actually can sustain.
所以，我们先听听吧。
So let's listen.
我们其实是通过一个共同的朋友认识的，他前女友。
We met through a mutual friend, actually, his ex.
对，我那时候和她谈过一段时间。
Yeah, who I was dating for a while.
他们分手后，两个人慢慢成了朋友，后来又发展成了恋人。
Their relationship didn't work out and, you know, a friendship blossomed into, you know, a relationship.
我们每天发消息，一起跟朋友聚会，经常出去玩。
We're texting every day, we're hanging out with the same friends, we're going out.
没过多久，我们就正式在一起了。
Soon enough, we are in a full blown relationship.
那段时间挺开心的。
That's fun.
我们都还年轻，玩得挺自在。
We're both young, having a good time.
我朋友多，经常一起出去，泡吧什么的。
I had a lot of friends, we were hanging out, going to bars and stuff like that.
我们就想着，只要还觉得开心，就一直在一起。
And we were like, we're going to be together as long as we're having fun.
一旦不开心了，那就得好好聊聊，重新想想了。
As long as it's not fun, that's when we started to have to, you know, talk about it and reconsider.
对。
Yep.
有一阵子确实挺顺利的。
For a while it worked out.
所以最初就是这么个轻松随意的约定？
So that was the original contract, light and easy?
轻松随意，没错。
Light and easy, yeah.
明白了。
Okay.
那这就是第一阶段了？
So that's phase one?
是的，这就是第一阶段。
Yeah, that's phase one.
随着蜜月期过去，我们渐渐老去，那种乐趣也开始发生变化。
And as you pass the honeymoon phase, as we started to get older, that is when the fun maybe started to shift.
他更想要多点乐趣、更多的开放性，还有更多的探索。
He was looking for more fun, more openness, more exploration.
认识新的人、交朋友，不管是什么形式吧。
People, new people, friends, whatever that may be.
对。
Yep.
我们以前常开玩笑说，我对生活有更朴实的想法，想做什么、怎么花时间，我都更在意这些。
And we used to joke that I had like more wholesome ideas of what I wanted and wanted to do and how to spend my time.
我老抱怨说，我们从周四到周日整天往外跑，酒吧、俱乐部，再来一家酒吧、又一家俱乐部，根本没时间坐下来好好吃顿饭。
Like, I used to complain that we would just be on the go all the time, like Thursday through Sunday, party, bar, club, another bar, another club, at no moment to sit down and have a meal.
我当时就在想，这真的就是我想过的生活吗？
And I was just like, I don't know if this is the lifestyle that I want.
我的意思是，那也不算差。
I mean, it wasn't bad.
我不想把这事说得那么不堪。
I don't want to give it like this tawdry interpretation.
只是节奏太快了，我觉得我们没时间做我想做的事。
It was more just like it was just too fast and I didn't feel like we were taking time to do certain things that I wanted to do.
对。
Yes.
所以他总觉得自己得拉着我走，而我老是说，慢点吧，他却说，来吧，我想带你一起经历这一切。
So, think that's where he always felt like he had to pull me and I was kind of just Slow down, and he was like, Come on, I want to bring you along for all of this.
对，我想让你跟我一起。
Yes, I want you with me.
我想咱们一块儿做这些事。
Like, I want to do this together.
但你最后还是站定了，说：不，这真不是我想过的日子，我得退一步了。
And you finally digged heels in the sand about, Yeah, this is not what I'm doing, or I'm gonna scale back on how much I'm involved in this.
你需要他帮你放慢节奏吗？
Do you need him to help you scale back?
是的，那时候我确实需要。
Yes, at the time I did.
不然你很容易陷进去吧？
Because you kind of otherwise could get lost in the vortex?
对，对，说实话，确实如此。
Yes, yes, if I'm gonna be honest.
在那种享乐的漩涡里？
In the hedonistic vortex?
这么说吧。
Let me put it that way.
要是找不到更贴切的词，那也没错。
For lack of a better word, sure.
我们换个别的吗？
Should we find another one?
还是说这一点写得很清楚？
Or does it state it clearly?
是的，你知道，和朋友在一起时很容易，尤其是年轻的时候住在城市里，你就会跟着朋友做同样的事。
Yes, you know, with friends it's easy to, and especially when you're young, living in a city, you're doing what your friends are doing.
但当他试图让你放慢脚步时，这就不只是单单一回事了。
But when he tries to slow you down, this is now beyond just this one situation.
当他想让你放慢点，比如提议坐下来吃顿饭，或者别总是一路狂奔的时候。
When he tries to slow you down or to say, let's sit or let's have a meal or let's not just go, go, go, go.
你是跟他对抗，还是其实明白他是在给你一种你有时缺少的内在节制？
You fight him or you actually know he's providing you with an inner control that you sometimes lack?
这是个好问题。
That's a good question.
我确实反抗过。
I did fight it.
我确实抵制过，尤其是当我对自己计划感到矛盾，比如那些享乐主义的事情。
I did resist, especially if conflicted on what my plans were, the hedonistic stuff.
但没错，我当时确实很抗拒。
But yes, I was very much fighting it.
后来只能靠他不断争辩，慢慢磨掉我的脾气，还让我在对话里感到内疚，我才最终妥协，同意放慢节奏。
And then it would only through argument and sort of like him, like, wearing me down, but like making me feel bad in the conversation, then I would acquiesce to the slowing down.
随着年纪增长，我渐渐明白了，安静地做些踏实的事，其实有种让人平和的力量。
As I gotten older, over time I realized the calming factor of being in and doing like the wholesome stuff.
我以前总觉得，把我想做的事说成是‘正经’的，有点让人不服气。
I used to resent the characterization of what I wanted to do as wholesome for some reason.
我懂。
I understand.
你给这些事贴的标签，其实赋予了它们完全不同的含义。
I mean, the way that you've labeled things gives it a whole meaning.
为什么你的就是‘正经’，我的就是年轻、自由、追求享乐、爱冒险，而你呢，就成了扫兴的人？
Why is yours wholesome and yours young, free, pleasure seeking, adventurous, and you're like, what, a party pooper?
是的。
Yeah.
但挺有意思的是，你这么早就接过了这些角色。
But it's interesting to see how very early on you took on those roles.
我猜一旦这些角色定了型，它们就越来越清晰了。
And my guess is that once they were outlined, they just became more and more defined.
完全没错。
That's 100%.
然后这种模式就开始渗透到方方面面。
And then it starts to filter into everything.
于是就变成一个负责，一个不负责任；一个认真，一个不认真；一个着眼未来，一个不是。
It just becomes one is responsible and one is not, one is serious and one is not, one is forward looking, one is not.
是这样吗？
Is that what happened?
是的。
Yes.
所以如果你能找到一个词来准确描述，但不是那种像老奶奶似的‘ wholesome ’
So if you had the word that really described and it wasn't wholesome as in, you know, grandmotherly,
那会是什么？
what
对你来说可能是什么？
could it have been for you?
我很难用一个词来定义，但浮现在我脑海里的画面是围坐在餐桌旁吃饭，因为我从小在意大利家庭长大。
I can't give you necessarily a word, the image that comes is up in my sitting around the table for food because I grew up Italian.
我们所有的聚会都是围绕着餐桌进行的。
All of our gatherings were around the table.
所以每当我想到什么让我感到快乐和满足时，就是坐下来，好好聊聊天。
So whenever I think about what gives me joy and fulfillment, it's like sitting down, having conversations.
对我来说，这让人充实，让人投入，也让人兴奋。
So to me, it's enriching, it's engaging, it's stimulating.
另一方面，有时候派对场景让我觉得很难受，因为没什么机会好好聊天。
On the flip side, sometimes the party scene was hard for me because there wasn't a lot of opportunity to talk.
音乐太响，节奏太快，社交互动往往短暂又表面。
The music's loud, it's fast, and social interactions can be sometimes fleeting and superficial.
所以那种空虚的感觉是刻在骨子里的，我整个人都觉得空落落的。
So, I felt that on a really deep soul level where I was feeling empty.
我根本不觉得这种场合有多充实，完全不是我想要的那种状态。
So, I didn't think of it as wholesome like it was
没事没事，我不是那个意思
No, no.
我懂你的感受
I get it.
我能理解。
I get it.
但我很好奇，就是你刚才说的那个围坐在餐桌旁、放下琐事专注当下、彼此联结、深入聊天的场景。
But I was wondering, that image that you had of sitting around the table, dropping in, being present, connecting with each other, having rich conversations.
你遇到过这种情况吗？
Did you have that?
就是在家里的时候？
At home?
是的，我的成长环境就是这样，我们家每天晚上都一起吃晚饭，你懂的。
Yes, yeah, I mean, you know, I grew up home, we had dinner every night, you know what I mean?
那你的家庭背景呢？
And your family background?
我妈妈是美国人。
My mom
我爸是加勒比地区的，就是西印度群岛那边的。
is American and my dad is Caribbean, so in the West Indies.
所以我是在一个国际化的美国家庭长大的，不过说到吃饭这件事，我不确定是不是真的有那种氛围。
So yeah, I grew up in a, you know, internationalAmerican home, but I guess in terms of like, the meal aspect, I don't know if that was
其实不是饭本身，而是你觉得家里那种氛围是不是很轻松愉快？
It wasn't the meal as much as, did it seem to you fun is outside?
是的。
Yes.
这正是我想说的。
That's what I
嗯，外面玩得才开心，你知道的。
was Yeah, going fun is outside, know.
你看啊，
See,
他很难说清楚内在的乐趣。
he's hard to describing fun is inside.
对。
Yeah.
其实‘乐趣’这个词根本不用提，内在的丰富才是关键——那是你主动选择的，而你描述的却是一种总想往外跑的劲头。
And the word fun wouldn't even need what he would choose, but inside is rich, inside is where you choose to whereas you're describing a kind of an elan to always want to go out.
没错。
That's true.
出去。
Out.
因为家就是让你放松、休息的地方，你不太会做太多事，只是待在那里，好重新蓄满能量，再出去。
Because the home is where you chill, where you relax, you're not doing too much, you're just like there to, I guess recharge to then go back out.
没错。
Right.
所以外面是你展现最好一面的地方，剩下的疲惫才带回家。
So out is where you bring the best of you and the leftovers come home.
说得对，就是这样。
There you go, yep.
而家就成了你不太付出自我的地方。
And then home becomes a place where you don't give much of yourself.
是的。
Yes.
这会让他感到非常沮丧。
And then that will become very frustrating to him.
是的。
Yes.
太对了。
That's so true.
就是这样。
Like that.
对。
Yes.
是吗？
Yeah?
因为他看到你出门时有多投入、多专注、多有存在感，可一回家，你就脱了鞋，往沙发上一瘫，指望谁也别来打扰你，更别提让你做任何事了。
Because then he sees how much attention, focus, engagement, presence you take with you when you go out and you come home, you take off your shoes, you put your feet up so to speak and you hope that nothing is asked from you and you don't have to do squats.
是的。
Yes.
你刚才看到什么了？
What
我描述的时候，你脑子里是不是浮现出了一个画面？
did you just see as I was describing this?
你眼前是不是清清楚楚地出现了那个场景？
You just had a scene in front of you.
就像我平常的日子吧，要是没什么事做，或者还没开始吵架的时候。
Like my typical days or not yeah, typical days if I don't have much to do or an argument about the start.
你懂我的意思吧？
You know what I mean?
就是你明明待在家里，有那么多事可以做，可你就是啥也不干。
Of like, you're just there, there's so much you could be doing and you're just there.
你懂我的意思吧？
You know what I mean?
我就在家里面。
Where I'm like, I'm in my house.
我本来就应该放松一下。
I'm supposed to be relaxing.
你出去的时候才需要花力气、忙这忙那的。
You go out, that's when you're exerting energy and doing all that.
你刚才说那些的时候，我就想到他好多次那样，说不上来为什么，就是觉得特别生气。
So when you were saying all that, I just saw all the arguments or all the times where he would be like, I can't explain it, but this is why I'm mad.
我心想：啥？
I'm like, what?
我就待在家里。
I'm I'm inside.
但你这么一说，听起来确实不太舒服。
But the way when you laid it out, was like, doesn't sound too great.
他指出了一个很关键的差别：一开始，看起来他们之间的矛盾是，一个想出去聚会、见朋友、玩得开心，另一个则更愿意待在家里，聊聊家常。
He points at an interesting distinction here because at first it looks like they're having tension around the fact that one of them wants to go out, party, meet friends, have fun, and the other one wants to be more at home, around the table in conversation, etcetera.
于是他说：我都待在家里了，你还是跟我闹脾气。
And so he says, but I'm home and you're having a fit with me even when I'm home.
因为他觉得，待在家里就该放松。
That's because his conception is that at home you chill.
待在家里就该翘着腿，不用装模作样。
At home you put your legs up and you don't have to be performative.
不用非得讨好谁。
You don't have to please.
你也不用去讨好。
You don't have to charm.
你也不用刻意做些什么。
You don't have to make any effort.
结果，他最好的一面都留在了外面，剩下的才带回家。
As a result, the best of him goes out into the world and the leftovers come home.
这对他来说根本谈不上好，主要是因为他根本不喜欢快节奏的派对生活，说‘不喜欢’都太轻了，他是真的反感。
It doesn't sound great for him primarily because if he struggles with the emptiness of the fast paced party scene, struggles is not even the word, just doesn't like it.
而且，你在家的时候，他也感受不到你的存在。
And he also doesn't get your presence when you're home.
于是他就会感到孤独、无聊、沮丧，还特别烦躁。
Then he's going to start to feel a lonely, bored, frustrated, agitated.
有这种感觉吗？
Something?
对。
Yes.
结果引发了后续的一连串影响。
Then that ended up having follow on effect.
我对自己的反应方式感到很愧疚。
And I have a lot of guilt for the way that I reacted.
我们渐渐养成了一个坏习惯，就是互相嘲笑对方喜欢的东西。
I think we got into a bad habit of mocking the things that the other person liked.
你们俩都是。
Each of you.
我们俩以不同的方式这么做的。
Both of us in different ways.
现在回头看，我会不经意地讽刺派对的肤浅空洞，说没人真想了解谁。
In retrospect, I would make little digs about the vapid superficial nature of partying, how no one was really interested in getting to know anyone.
都是些随口的小话，现在我才明白，其实我是在一点点摧毁他。
You know, it was slight offhand comments that I now, in retrospect realize I was breaking him down.
我是在偷走他的光。
I was stealing his light.
但当我交新朋友的时候，他总会冷不丁地挖苦，说你们这群人就爱聊哲学啊，无聊透顶的东西。
But then when it would come to me making new friends, there would be the little jabs about like, Oh yeah, y'all are to go talk about philosophy or Boring stuff.
是的。
Yeah.
老拿我装深沉、假知识分子这类话开玩笑，我觉得这样慢慢把彼此都磨累了。
Little jokes about being pseudo intellectual or something like that that I think wore on each other.
我们根本不太尊重对方在乎的东西或兴趣。
We didn't have a lot of respect for what the other person brought to the table or was interested in.
我很后悔。
I regret that.
真的。
I do.
因为我这个人确实不好相处。
Because I can be difficult.
我有时候太苛刻了。
I can be hard.
当我被逼得觉得僵化、被贴标签时，我真的会很生气。
When I've been made to feel rigid and typecast, it makes me really angry.
所以有时候我的反应方式并不对。
And so the way that I have responded sometimes hasn't been the right way.
事后我才意识到，我那样说对别人造成了什么影响？
And so I recognize that after the fact that like, what was the effect on him?
我讲那些话的时候，到底在对他做什么？
What was I doing to him by saying these things?
这里描述的，其实是很多关系里都常见的模式。
What's described here is a rather common pattern in many relationships.
一个人不喜欢对方的某种行为。
One person doesn't like what the other one does.
当光是重复抱怨没用时，这种话就会变成批评。
When they can't get anywhere just repeating that, the comment turns into criticism.
如果批评行为还是没用，那批评就会升级成对人品的否定。
When the criticism doesn't go anywhere, then the criticism over the behavior turns into a criticism over the personality.
不是你做了什么，而是你这个人本身。
Not what you do, but who you are.
然后，就像他说的，我们开始互相嘲讽。
Then, as he says, we began mocking each other.
我们互相攻击。
We digged.
我们让对方为他们最在乎的事感到羞愧，事情就变成了轻蔑。
We made the person feel bad about the very thing that mattered to them and it became contemptuous.
轻蔑从‘我不喜欢你的行为’变成了‘你这个人有问题’。
And contempt switched from I don't like what you do to there's something wrong with you.
这就是轻蔑的定论。
That is the sentence of contempt.
他非常坦诚地承认了，坦然地承担了责任，说：我本想平息事态，结果却让情况更糟。
And he very honestly owns it, beautifully just takes responsibility for it and just says, I added my peace to this and it made it worse.
这话说得真好。
That was very beautiful.
这种认知特别重要，因为一旦你们每天反复这么对待彼此，态度就会变得僵化。
That recognition is really important because when you start to repeat that on a daily basis to each other, it becomes rigid.
你们俩实际上都在不断打击对方本来就正在挣扎的那部分。
It's like each of you basically began to put down the very part that the other person is already struggling with.
是啊，我觉得过一阵子，因为你那时候已经铁了心，心想：我再也不这样了，或者干脆换个方向。
Yeah, I think after a while, like, because you at that point dug your heels in and was like, I'm not doing this as much or I'm just going to take a pivot.
你开始轻视我所看重的东西，一点一点地磨损了我对自我喜好的信心。
And you started to sort of look down on the things that I guess I was valuing, it chipped away at me and my self esteem of what I like.
我喜欢的这些东西，真的那么肤浅、愚蠢吗？
Is what I like frivolous and dumb and stupid?
所以我觉得，时间一长，我对自己的喜好渐渐失去了信心。
So I think over time, it just eroded my confidence in the things that I liked.
然后疫情就来了。
And then the pandemic happened.
现在你已经进入求生模式了。
And now you are, you know In survival mode.
这时候已经是在求生模式了。
In survival mode at this point.
所以他们正在跟我复述关系中升级的全过程。
So they're tracking with me the sequence of escalation in their relationship.
他们变成了互相较劲的伴侣，不断攻击、反应、指责和防御。
They had become a digging couple that attacks and reacts and blames and defends.
然后他们提到了疫情。
And then they bring up the pandemic.
他们描述了在这种动态下，连出门散心、接触别人、获取外界支持、喘口气的机会都没有，压力有多大。
They start to describe the pressure cooker of having this whole dynamic when there is not even an opportunity to open a door, to meet other people, to get some other input, to have a break from it.
他们日复一日地被困在其中。
They were with this day in, day out.
我们现在还在咨询过程中，但还有很多话没说完。
We are in the midst of our session, and there is still so much to talk about.
我们得短暂休息一下，请继续关注。
We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.
你好。
Hi.
我是玛丽亚·莎拉波娃，欢迎收听《坚韧之美》播客。
I'm Maria Sharapova, host of the Pretty Tough podcast.
每期节目，我都会与那些卓越非凡的女性深入对话，探讨她们如何毫不歉疚地追求卓越。
Each episode, I sit down with high achieving women to discuss the pursuit of excellence without apology.
本周嘉宾是喜剧演员兼畅销书作家切尔西·汉德勒，她分享了关于独立生活与优雅 aging 的心得。
This week on the show, comedian and best selling author Chelsea Handler gives her tips on independence and aging gracefully.
我现在50岁了，回过头看，比起30岁或40岁的时候，我对生活有了更深的理解——你积累的智慧和经验，反而让你感觉像是重新启程。
I would argue that 50, now that I am 50 and I understand life more than I did when I was 30 or 40, is that you get so much more wisdom and you get so much more experience that you actually feel like you're beginning again.
欢迎收听《坚韧之美》，新节目每周三上线。
Check out Pretty Tough, new episodes on Wednesdays.
你可以在YouTube上观看，也可以在任意播客应用里收听。
You can watch it on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app.
你好。
Hi.
我是玛丽亚·莎拉波娃，‘坚韧之声’播客的主持人。
I'm Maria Sharapova, host of the pretty tough podcast.
每期节目，我都会邀请那些成就卓越的女性，聊聊她们如何毫不歉意地追求卓越。
Each episode, I sit down with high achieving women to discuss the pursuit of excellence without apology.
本周嘉宾是南加州大学的记者威尔洛·贝，现在她和丈夫鲍勃·伊格尔共同拥有女子足球队天使城FC。
This week, journalist Dean at USC and now along with her husband Bob Iger, owner of the Angel City FC women's soccer team.
威尔洛·贝。
Willow Bay.
我跟鲍勃说：‘你有兴趣参与这件事吗？’
I said, Bob, are you interested in doing this?
他回答：‘当然有。’
And he said, absolutely.
但说实话，推动这件事、坚定信念的主要是我。
But I was definitely the driving force, I think, in the conviction about Angel City.
别忘了收听‘坚韧之声’。
Check out pretty tough.
新集数每周三更新。
New episodes on Wednesdays.
你可以在YouTube上观看，或者在你常用的播客应用里收听。
You can watch it on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app.
我是米奇·弗斯特，两届恩努俱乐部冠军、总决赛MVP，也是美国女子国家足球队的前锋。
I'm Mitch Furst, two time Entre Nous L champion, championship MVP, and forward for the US Women's National Team.
在成为职业运动员之前，我以心理学学位从哈佛毕业，这方面的知识比你想象的更有用。
Before I went pro, I graduated from Harvard with a degree in psychology, which comes in handy more than you think.
任何追求卓越的运动员都知道，必须具备某种特定的心态。
Any athlete pursuing greatness knows there's a certain mentality you have to have.
但外界并不了解，这种心态背后要付出什么代价。
What people don't know is what that costs.
在我的播客《精英运动员的自白》中，我会与世界上顶尖的运动员对话，深入探讨通往卓越之路背后的心理、思维模式和那些不为人知的挣扎。
In my podcast, Confessions of an Elite Athlete, I sit down with the best athletes in the world and explore the psychology, mindset, and unseen battles on the path to greatness.
请坐下来，收听YouTube上或你常听播客的平台上的《精英运动员的自白》。
So take a seat and learn from the Confessions of an Elite Athlete on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
我们俩在怎么应对这件事上真的特别纠结，因为一方面，我们的朋友圈在疫情期间，甚至在早期封锁阶段，就放松了很多限制。
We just really struggled with how we both navigated that because on the one hand, our friend group took more liberties with the pandemic, even in the earlier months during the lockdown.
我坚持非常严格，说实话有点死板的立场：我们谁都不见。
I took a very hard, admittedly rigid line and said, We are not going to be around anybody.
我们不能见任何人，因为他们都聚成十几个人的大群了，我们当时在想，那我们能不能搞个封闭圈？
We can't be around anybody because they're all going into big ten, fifteen person groups, and we were talking, Well, can't we have a bubble?
我说，如果大家都混在一起，那就根本算不上什么封闭圈。
I said, There's no bubble if everyone's mixing.
那根本就不是封闭圈。
It's not a bubble then.
最后我们做到了尽量隔离，很多朋友也就渐渐疏远了。
So, we got him to a point where we're pretty isolated and a lot of our friends kind of moved on.
不是疏远。
Not moved on.
那时候我们觉得，是别人抛下我们走了。
We felt at the time that people moved on without us.
那段时间真是
It was
让人很难受。
hurtful.
因为他当时态度特别坚决，我们根本没法商量怎么处理这件事。
And I think because of his hard stance at the time, there was no talking or in between about how we were going to do it.
他完全不肯让步，我只能跟着他的节奏走，因为事情就是那样。
He kind of just dug his heel in the sand and I had to kind of be along with the program because that's just how it was.
他根本一点余地都不给。
You know, you really wasn't budging.
我觉得正是从那时候开始，矛盾才真正爆发，因为
I think that's when the conflicts really started to kick off because
我每一次退让，心里对你的怨气就多一分。
And for every time I relinquish, I resent you more.
对。
Yes.
每次我都得放弃自己的一些看法，或者原本想做的事，还有在这种情况下的自主权，因为有个人一直在定规矩。
Each time I had to give up a part of my view or like what I would do or my own autonomy in the situation because there's this person that's just making the rules.
那现在这些都存哪儿了？
And where is all of this stored right now?
是的，还在那儿呢。
Yeah, it's still It's there.
是的，还是有点控制欲和自主性的残留。
Yeah, still a little bit of the control and autonomous piece.
我觉得这正是我最纠结的地方：该怎么在保持合作关系的同时，重新行使自主权，而不是像以前那样。
And I think that's really where I guess I struggle where to go forward of like exercising that autonomy, but also doing it in a partnership as well and not the same way.
你有没有惊讶于自己竟然放弃了那些想法和应对方式，还任由他这么做？
Are you surprised that you relinquished your ideas or your coping mechanisms and that you kind of allowed him to?
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
我一点都不意外。
I'm not surprised.
说说看。
Tell me.
我在家人面前经常被压着，尤其是我妈和我姐妹们那儿。
I think in my relationships with family, I do get steamrolled quite a bit, especially with my mom and my sisters.
这种模式也延伸到朋友关系里，总想讨好别人，挑省事的路走，避开冲突。
And I think that translated in people pleasing with friends, you know, just taking the easy way route or just a path of less resistance and conflict avoidance.
所以我不奇怪自己会任由这种情况发生，但我也对自己有点不满，因为我不喜欢这样的性格。
So it's not surprising that I let this happen or this happen, and I think part of that is I resent that in myself, because I don't think I like that as a quality.
那爸爸呢？
Is there dad?
有。
Yes.
爸爸在这件事里扮演什么角色？
And what is dad's role in this?
我就是这样，随和、总挑省事的路走，在一帮性格强势的人面前不太爱开口。
More like me, the laid back, path of least resistance, less outspoken in a room of people who have a stronger personality.
不过，要是有人问起，我还是有话要说的。
However, still has things to say when asked.
所以我觉得，跟妈妈和姐妹们相处的这种模式里，他跟我挺像的，就是咱们让她们说去吧。
So I think in this whole dynamic with mom, sisters, he was kind of like me, kind of like, we'll let them talk.
就这样了。
That's that.
我们让她们说，然后自己该干嘛干嘛，或者干脆顺着她们的意思来，毕竟老婆高兴，全家太平。
We let them talk and we'll go do our thing or we let them talk and we'll do what they want because happy wife, happy life.
对，我们让她们说，也按她们的意思来，直到——你知道的，
Yes, we'll let them talk and do what they want until, you know
直到真有要紧事的时候。
It really matters.
直到真有要紧事，或者
Until it really matters or
大多数事情根本不值得大惊小怪。
And most things don't matter enough to put up a stink.
没错。
Correct.
对啊。
Yeah.
你们还会互相使个眼色？
And you wink at each other?
是啊，我们心里都明白，真搞不懂他们干嘛把那些事看得那么重要。
Yeah, we were like, why do they, you know, we were kind of commiserate and as to why whatever they were talking about was as important.
我觉得我爸就特别这样，老问：你们在聊啥呢？
I think my dad was very much on the, what are you guys talking about?
你懂我的意思吧？
You know what I mean?
所以我后来也学我爸，采取了同样的态度。
So I think I kind of took the stance of my dad.
我正在努力避免这种情况再发生，学会为自己发声，但又不至于显得不信任别人。
And that's something that I'm trying to work on not happening more and standing up for myself, but also not doing it in a way that I is distrustful.
不是不信任，而是我特别在意保护自己的独立性，不想被别人压着走。
Not distrustful, but like I'm very much on the defense of wanting to keep my autonomy or make sure that I'm not getting steamrolled.
我想回应一下这一点。
I want to respond to that.
说实话，我也意识到，我过去待人接物的方式，最后变成了我自己的样子。
Just that, you know, I recognize that I also felt that the way that I conducted myself is something that I ended up presenting in myself.
疫情留下的影响我一直没放下，不是因为他怎么对待我，而是我怎么对待自己——那时候我感觉自己几乎像在施暴。
I still hold a lot from the pandemic as well, less about how he showed up for me, but more about how I showed up for myself and how I conducted myself because I felt that I was very I almost felt like it felt tyrannical.
我脑子里总冒出一个词：我像个暴君。
That's the word I always had in my head is I feel like a tyrant.
是因为你害怕吗？
Because you were scared?
我吓坏了。
I was terrified.
说实话，我当时在卫生清洁方面焦虑得厉害。
I mean, I realized I had a lot of anxiety issues around contamination.
每天早上醒来，第一件事就是看数据、读图表。
Woke up every morning and I looked at the numbers and I would read the graphs.
现在回想起来，那段经历我并不觉得自豪。
It was a moment that I wasn't really proud of.
但回头想想，我也不知道当时还能怎么做不同，毕竟那时候谁都不清楚这东西到底有多危险。
In retrospect, I don't know if I could have done anything differently because we didn't know what this thing was at the time.
我只是想保护大家。
I was trying to protect us.
这大概就是我对那段日子的记忆。
Mean, that's how I remember it.
那时候真觉得是生死攸关的事。
Felt very life or death at the time.
是啊。
Yeah.
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但我却贬低你，因为你想要和朋友待在一起。
But I I belittled you for wanting to be around your friends.
我好多次都说，世界都快烧起来了，你居然只关心去参加个派对，现在回头想想，那哪算什么派对啊。
There was a lot of times that I would say, The world is burning and all you can worry about is going to a house party, which in retrospect, this is not as a house party.
我们那时候很孤单。
We were lonely.
我们特别孤单，可我总说，我也很孤单啊。
We were deeply lonely, but I'd be like, I'm lonely too.
你这话是什么意思？
So, what do you mean?
你得去参加那个活动。
You need to go to that.
人家打世界大战，我们却只能待在家里刷Netflix。
People fought world wars and we have to sit in and watch Netflix.
也没那么糟。
It's not that bad.
所以我总是轻描淡写地对待我们当时在那场争吵中经历的一切。
So, I would just kind of like trivialize what we were going through in this hate dispute.
你把整个文化背景都搬出来了。
You brought up your entire cultural arsenal.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
但我明白，这背后其实是恐惧。
But I understand that underneath this was fear.
就像你说你紧紧抓住自己的独立性，带着一种防御的姿态，不是因为你对它有信心，觉得它会自然实现，而是因为你真正感受到它的脆弱。
In the same way that when you say I'm holding on tight to my autonomy in a kind of defensive way, it's not because I trust it so well that it's gonna manifest, it's because I actually experience its fragility.
没错。
Yeah.
当你害怕的时候，就会变得僵硬，看起来像个控制欲强的人，行为也特别控制人，但其实是因为你觉得自己失去了掌控。
The same way that you become rigid when you are scared and it looks like you're a controlling dude and you act in a controlling fashion but in fact it's because you're feeling out of control.
表面上看是确信无疑，其实背后是恐惧。
It's presented as certainty but in fact it's fear.
披着确定性的外衣。
Masquerading as certainty.
对。
Yeah.
对，就是对不确定性的恐惧。
Yeah, the fear of uncertainty.
我理解你的意思，他并不是因为就是绝对真理才这样。
I guess what you're saying is like, he's not the absolute truth just because
因为他说话的口气听起来像那么回事。
Because he sounds like it.
没错。
Right.
他也是可以被质疑的。
He can be challenged.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
这正是你的机会。
And it's your opportunity.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得吧。
I'd say.
我觉得当疫情终于过去，大家都打完疫苗之后。
I think when the pandemic finally, you know, we were vaccinated.
你根本
You couldn't
再也受不了对方了。
stand each other anymore.
就好像我出来的时候，感觉像是重获新生，当然你可能有不一样的说法。
It's like we had, I don't know, you might describe it a bit differently, but when I came out, I had a new lease on life.
我就觉得，白白浪费了这么多年。
I was just like, I lost these many years.
我进去的时候是1928年，出来的时候已经30岁、31岁了。
I went in '28 and I came out thirty, thirty one.
在牢里迎来三十岁，没法好好度过二十多岁的最后几年，这对我俩影响都很大，但尤其对我自己。
It's something about hitting 30 while inside and not having that ability to live those last few years of your 20s the way you wanted to had a really big impact on, I think both of us, but me in particular.
我就下定决心，这辈子要按自己的方式活。
And I just was like, I'm going to live my life the way I want to live it.
我要去旅行。
I'm going to travel.
我想重新找回以前喜欢做的事。
I want to get back to the things that I used to like.
你说我这是在拼命追求目标，没错。
I was on a mission, you said.
是的。
Yeah.
你出来的时候是带着目标的，但对我来说，出来之后的感觉是失去了很多朋友，因为我那时候完全孤立，而朋友们都在外面正常生活、社交。
When you got out, it was you on a mission, but I think, for me, the aftermath was feeling like I lost friendships because I just was isolated when my friends were out non isolating.
他们都在外面建立联系、创造回忆，而我却什么都没参与，感觉那些东西就这么丢了。
They were out and about making connections or memories that I wasn't a part of, so I felt like I lost that on that.
那时候社会上还正热议种族问题。
And then I guess there was a whole cultural conversation around race at the time.
可我又因为孤立，没能真正参与到这些讨论里——虽然我那时候的伴侣很爱我，但他是个白人。
And again, because I was isolated, I didn't really get to experience that as well because I love my partner at the time, but you know, he's a white guy.
所以在孤立的状态下，我也没能真正接触到这些对话或互动。
So I didn't really get that conversation as well or interaction in isolation.
所以我也说不清楚。
So I don't know.
出来之后，我感觉自己彻底迷失了。
I felt very much lost coming out of it.
我差点儿没了状态。
I kinda lost my mojo.
他们描述了封锁期间那种窒息感，以及它如何加剧了他们内部的关系问题，还有外界正在发生的事。
They described the lockdown, the suffocation, how it exacerbated all their dynamics, but also what was happening in the world outside.
那时候正是黑人的命也是命运动。
Here was Black Lives Matter.
正如他所说，当时正发生一场关于种族的广泛讨论，而我却无法参与其中。
As he calls it, a whole racial conversation was taking place that I could not participate in.
而这场讨论本可能让我找到那种我一直在挣扎着寻求的坚定、自主、自信和自我价值感，而且不用一个人扛着。
And that was one in which I may have found some of that very assertiveness, autonomy, confidence, self worth that I was struggling with without having to do it alone.
此外，他提到这一点特别有力量，因为人们总以为一方只想玩乐，另一方则更想认真对待生活。
And in addition, there's something so powerful in his referencing this because they're so locked in into this notion that one just wants to party and one wants to have a more serious engagement with life.
他可不是只想玩乐。
He didn't just wanna party.
他想参与当时围绕黑人男性和黑人的命也是命运动展开的更大范围的对话，可他做不到。
He wanted to be part of the larger conversation that was happening at that time around black men and black lives matter, and he couldn't.
所以这让他身上多了层内涵，不只是个爱玩的人。
And so it adds a whole layer to him that isn't just party boy.
所以是啊，我觉得你当时状态很好，而我并不是。
So yeah, you I think you were thriving, I was not.
我不确定我是不是该说。
Don't know if I'd
用‘状态很好’来形容不太准确。
call it thriving.
我是这么看的，我觉得这也很符合我们的风格：我出来之后感到一种紧迫感和焦虑，想弥补上次的遗憾，这总逼着我行动起来。
I the way I describe it, and I think it matches our styles too, is that I came out feeling this urgency, this anxiety to make up for last time, which always forces me into action.
我觉得你感受到的更多是悲伤或抑郁，让你觉得彻底垮了，像被抽走了所有力气。
I think you experienced it more of a sadness or a depression, and it made you just of feel defeated, like the wind had been sucked out of your sails.
你觉得自己什么都没了。
You had lost everything.
你总说，我失去了这个，又失去了那个。
You always say, I just lost this and I lost that.
回来之后，一切都感觉不一样了。
Nothing felt the same coming back.
所以啊，我当时就像迷失了一样，你知道的。
So yeah, I kind of felt like just lost in it, you know?
那你后来做了什么？
And then what did you do?
我觉得我还在找方向的路上，但说到底，我是往内走，去弄清楚自己喜欢什么，重新和自己建立连接。
I think I'm still in that process of finding my way, but I think finding my way was going inward, figuring out what I liked, connecting with myself.
某种程度上，我变得闭门不出，因为我不想跟人来往。
And I think in a way I became a recluse because I didn't want to like socialize.
我开始对社交产生焦虑。
I think I developed an anxiety of socialization.
哦，真的吗。
Oh, wow.
我也不想怎么跟人说话了。
I didn't really want to talk to people as much.
我变得跟疫情开始前完全相反了。
I kind of became the opposite of what I became going into the pandemic.
感觉别人都在往前走，完全没把我放在心上。
I felt as though people mowed on and had nothing to do with me.
我对自己的处境、我在世界中的位置，产生了特别消极的看法。
I just had this really negative self view about how things were, where my place was in the world.
是他们真的抛弃了你吗？
Was it real that they had left you or
不是。
No.
那都是你心里的想法。
Was all all inside of you.
全在我脑子里。
In my head.
我们好像互换了角色。
It's like we switched roles.
角色互换了。
Switch roles.
我觉得自己毫无价值。
I didn't feel relevant.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
真没想到。
Wow.
太意外了。
Wow.
我觉得自己毫无价值。
I didn't feel relevant.
真没想到。
Wow.
我想我后来觉得自己不再重要了。
I guess I didn't feel important anymore.
对。
Yeah.
但有趣的是，当你处于那种四处社交、特别活跃、总在人群中心的阶段时，别人可能以为那是自信的表现。
But you see the interesting thing is that it may look like when you were in your, I'm out and about, socially hyperactive, on the scene phase, that that was an expression of confidence.
我听出来，你那时候其实是用这种方式来应对缺乏自信的问题。
What I'm hearing from you is that that was a way of dealing with the lack of confidence.
那是你用来应对自我价值疑虑的一种方式，这其实很常见——社交上被接纳、身处焦点，每通电话都让你觉得：我有价值，我重要，别人想着我，我值得被关注。
That was a way of dealing with some of your questions around self worth, which is not unusual that being socially accepted in the center of things, every phone call means I matter, I'm important, people think of me, I'm worthy.
但如果每通电话都意味着这些，那就说明你内心其实并不真的这么认为。
But if every phone call means that, it means that inside of me
我不这么觉得。
I don't think that.
我内心也不真这么想。
I don't really think it.
所以你就觉得，现在的问题是你不再像以前那样频繁外出、主动社交了。
And so then somehow you think this is the problem now because you're no longer going out and reaching in the same way.
但也许这根本不是问题，真正的问题在于，以前那种方式虽然能应付，却未必是最有效的解决办法。
But maybe this is actually not the problem, but the first version was not necessarily the problem but the first version was not necessarily the most useful way to deal with this issue.
它确实管用。
It took care of the job.
只要能快速、持续地提供反馈，你就不用去深想。
As long as it was fast and constant so you don't have to think.
是的。
Yeah.
某种程度上，现在这种状态反而更难受，这正是你一直回避的，但同时也给了你真正建立自信的机会。
In a way, this is more painful, this is what you've defended against all along, but this actually gives you the opportunity to really develop the confidence.
对。
Yeah.
确实，我以前特别看重参加了什么派对、认识了什么朋友、有过多少次约会，这些频率在我心里，就等于我有没有价值。
Yeah, like I put a lot of value on what party I was going to, what friend that I made, what hookup I had, and the frequency of it all, I guess in my mind, meant that I mattered.
对。
Yeah.
就像你刚才说的，那一切都是虚假的。
To your point where you're like, that was fake.
那根本不是真正的自信。
That wasn't real confidence.
我不想随便替你下结论，但在我看来，当时你开始依赖我了。
I don't want to speak for you, but my interpretation of how things were is that you started to look to me.
你是不是觉得，要是没了这些，你就
You felt like without me, you
没法立足了
were
完全搞不懂了。
lost.
要是没有你，没人愿意跟我一起玩。
Without you, no one wants to hang out with me.
他们都想跟你一起，我心想：这到底是怎么回事？
They all want to do with you, I'm like, What is this?
是你把我带进这个圈子的。
You were the one that brought me into the fold.
是你让我看到了这么多东西。
You were the one that showed me so much.
当我加入你们的朋友圈时，是你真正打开了我的世界。
You were the one that really opened up my life when I came into the picture with your friend group.
现在你却说你一直在依赖我，那一刻，我从未体验过的情绪一下子全涌了上来。
Now you're saying you were looking to me, and it was like all of these floods of emotions started coming in that I had never seen.
说实话，我既高兴你终于愿意跟我分享这些，也觉得我们更亲近了，但同时我又有点招架不住，因为情绪来得太猛了。
Honestly, it was both I felt good that you finally could share them with me and I felt closer, but I was also a little overwhelmed because it was just a flood.
我甚至在想：天啊，如果他真的这么难受，我该怎么照顾你？
I felt almost like, Oh my gosh, if this is how he's feeling, how do I take care of you?
我记得有一次你生日，我特意安排了一顿精致的晚餐，但那时我就是觉得你心不在焉。
I have this memory where it was your birthday and I had planned this fancy dinner out somewhere, and I just felt like you just weren't.
我说不上来，但我真的很讨厌那样。
I don't know, I hated that.
我甚至有点反感。
I almost resented it.
你有这种感受，可我还在努力想让事情变得有趣，可我们之间就是再也连不上了。
It was like, You feel this way, and I'm still trying to help out to make things fun, and it just wasn't connecting anymore.
是的。
Yeah.
我就觉得，这已经一点都不好玩了。
And I was just like, this isn't fun anymore.
对。
Yeah.
这真了不起。
That's amazing.
你确实一直把他当成你的开心果。
You actually did rely on him to be your fun machine.
就像他某种程度上依赖你，让你提醒他该回家了，虽然他并不喜欢这样，但他心里明白自己需要这个。
The same way that he somewhere relied on you to be the container that reminded him that it's time to come home on occasion, but he didn't like it, but he knew he needed it somewhere.
而你，某种程度上也依赖他，让他当那个带来欢乐和活力的人。
And you, in a way, also needed him to be the light, fun seeking guy.
当他真正认真地转向你时，你很欢迎，因为这对你来说意义重大。
When he actually turns to you with the gravitas, you welcome it because it means so much to you.
但同时你又怕他会压垮你，让你不知道该怎么应对。
And at the same time you're afraid it's gonna overwhelm you and you're not gonna know what to do with it.
嗯，
Well
是的。
Yeah.
我从来没这么想过。
Never thought of it that way.
用你自己的话来说说看。
Say it in your own words.
我渴望从你那里得到那种亲近和亲密，甚至希望你能更认真一点。
I wanted that closeness and intimacy from you and I wanted you to almost be more serious.
可当这一切真的发生时，我反而开始埋怨你，怪你没有给我我之前一直想要的东西。
When the moment it started to happen, it was almost like the very thing that I was asking you for before, I was now cursing you for not giving me.
是的。
Yeah.
所以你大概觉得自己陷入了两难的境地。
So you kind of probably felt like you were in a catch 22.
我当时确实觉得自己不够好，因为连我最擅长的事——逗你开心、活跃气氛、让事情变得有趣——我都完全没做到。
Well, I was definitely felt inadequate because it was like, well, the one thing that I'm good at, I'm not even doing, which is like the fun and like, you know, making things happen, cheering you up.
那时候的我，就像一片乌云，对你来说大概已经变得可有可无了。
I had become the cloud now and I guess obsolete to you, you know, in that period.
所以后来，我们俩都感觉，得有点变化才行。
So then I guess we're both kind of like, something needs to kind of happen.
我们得打破现状了。
We need to shake things up.
这一整段对话，我们一直在追踪这段关系从开始到现在的发展过程。
This whole session, we are tracking the progression of the relationship from the beginning to where they are now.
而现在，他们陷入了僵局。
And now they're at an impasse.
他们总是互相挑刺，没完没了。
They're constantly picking at each other.
实在受不了了，于是他们决定得做点什么。
They can't take it anymore, and they decide we need to do something.
真的得做点什么了。
We need to do something.
在他们看来，只有彻底改变结构，才能打破这些反复出现的模式。
It seems to them that only a structural shift can stop the repeated patterns that they are caught in.
我们先短暂休息一下。
We have to take a brief break.
请继续关注。
Stay with us.
嘿。
Hey.
我是马特·布谢尔，喜剧演员、作家，可能你也在你的推荐页上见过我这个飘着的脑袋，我现在要开一个全新的播客。
I'm Matt Bouchel, comedian, writer, and floating head you may or may not have seen on your FYP, and I'm starting a brand new podcast.
等等。
Wait.
别划走。
Don't swipe away.
这档节目叫《听着挺事儿多》。
It's called that sounds like a lot.
我打算先拆解一下世界上正在发生的各种疯事，然后约上一个喜剧演员、演员、作家，或者干脆任何回复我私信的人来聊聊。
I'm gonna start by breaking down whatever insanity is happening in the world, and then I'll sit down with a comedian or actor or writer or, honestly, anyone who responds to my DMs.
这里不是让你获取新闻的地方，但能让你对这些新闻感觉好一点。
This is not the place to get the news, but it is a place to feel a little bit better about it.
你可以在YouTube上看，也可以在任何听播客的平台收听。
You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcast.
《That Sounds Like a Lot》是Vox Media播客网络旗下节目。
That sounds like a lot, part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
为什么这件事还一直在我心里烧着，让我总觉得我漏掉了什么？
Why is this that's still, like, burning inside of me that I feel like I am missing something?
我为我的女儿拼命祈祷。
I prayed so hard for my girl.
我每天晚上都祷告，不停地祷告，可当我失去孩子的时候，那种痛苦真的难以承受。
I prayed like every night, prayed, prayed, prayed and when I lost my babies, was so hard.
所以当我终于有了他们，我以为那就是一切了。
So that when I had them, I thought that was gonna be the thing.
我觉得，我终于得到了我祈求的东西，它会填满我，这就是我想要的一切，甚至更多。
Like, I am finally getting the thing that I prayed for, and it's going to fulfill me, and this is everything I want and more.
它确实是，但同时，我又觉得少了点什么。
And it was, but it was also something missing.
我是罗宾·阿森，欢迎收听《为人母：重混版》，来自Project Swagger。
I'm Robin Arson, and this is Motherhood, the remix from Project Swagger.
这个系列探讨的是我们如何定义属于自己的母职。
This series is about defining our own versions of motherhood.
我请来了一位我特别敬爱和欣赏的妈妈。
I am bringing in a mama I adore and admire.
我的朋友、也是同为佩洛顿教练的凯尔丝汀·弗格森。
My friend, fellow Peloton instructor, Kirsten Ferguson.
立即收听《Project Swagger》。
Listen now at Project Swagger.
本周《财富与闲聊》中，我要讲讲我创业的起点。
This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm telling you my entrepreneurial origin story.
我是怎么从朝九晚五的工作、顺便拍点网络视频，到毅然辞掉年薪六十二万五千美元的工作，全职投入‘你的富足好友’这个事业的。
How I went from working a nine to five and making internet videos on the side to walking away from a $625,000 a year job to take Your Rich BFF full time.
我会详细拆解，我是怎么意识到该放手一搏的，怎么提前做好财务准备，不靠运气硬撑，以及真正当自己的老板需要哪些东西。
I'm breaking down exactly how I knew it was time to make the leap, how I set myself up financially so I wasn't just winging it, and what it actually takes to survive and thrive as your own boss.
从现金流到报税，再到打造多个收入来源，说实话，当创业者听着很酷，但直到你发现所有这些都得自己搞定，才明白有多难。
From cash flow to taxes to building multiple income streams, because let's be real, becoming an entrepreneur sounds amazing until you realize you have to figure out all of this yourself.
我做到了，现在我把整个方案分享给你。
I did, and now I'm giving you the blueprint.
无论你在哪里听播客，或者在YouTube上搜索yourrichbff观看都可以。
Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com/yourrichbff.
我说过，我们得做出点改变。
I said we needed to change something.
我不确定具体该怎么做，但我知道不能再这样下去了。
I don't know what it was that we needed to do, but I knew it couldn't go status quo.
我们都同意，这种状态绝对不能再继续了。
We both agreed that it just could not go on like this.
没错。
Yeah.
后来我们决定重新定义我们的关系，其实就是和平分手。
And we eventually landed on what we called a de escalation of our relationship where we would effectively break up.
但这种‘无聊式分手’并不适合我。
But the bored breakup didn't feel like it fit for me.
我们只是觉得，不会真的去办离婚、分家具、搬去不同的地方。
It just felt like we're not going to do the divorce, split up the furniture, move into other places.
我们知道彼此还爱着对方。
We know we love each other.
我们知道我们还在乎对方。
We know that we care about each other.
我希望你继续留在我生命里。
I want you in my life.
你也希望我留在你生命里，但我们就像三脚赛跑，老是绊倒，还互相拖着往不同方向走，根本不知道该怎么脱身。
You want me in your life, but we're running a three legged race, and we're just tripping, and we're pulling each other in different We don't know how to get out of it.
是的。
Yeah.
我们就想着，得给彼此一点空间，喘口气。
We just were like, We just need some time to breathe.
这就是我们的决定。
That was the decision.
我不会骗你，这个决定里也有现实的考虑，毕竟住在这么贵的城市，你总得想想，真要一个人住吗？
I won't lie and say there wasn't a practical elements to the decision too because living in an expensive city also means like, Okay, are you going to live by yourself?
所以，更传统的方式可能是各自给对方一些空间。
So, maybe the more traditional way would have been to give each other some physical space.
但我们决定，至少目前，需要一种‘同住但分隔’的方式，让关系缓一缓。
But we decided, at least for now, we need to be able to do a live in separation or de escalation.
我们大概就是去年这个时候做出这个决定的，当时根本不知道该怎么操作。
We decided to do that probably around this time last year, and we had no idea what we were doing.
我们只知道，得试着开始过各自的生活了。
I mean, we just knew that we were going to start trying to live separate lives
一起生活。
together.
你们在性生活上划了底线？
And you draw the line at sex?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yes.
也就是说是的。
Is that Yes.
好吧，是的。
Okay, yes.
但一般不涉及身体上的亲密接触。
But not physical intimacy generally.
对。
Right.
有时候我们会搂着睡觉，睡在同一张床上。
There's been times where we cuddle, sleep in the same bed.
是的。
Yes.
拥抱啊，这些表达感情的方式都有。
Hugs, all that, you know, affection.
所以，从外面看，朋友们看到我们，都会说：‘姐妹，你这到底在搞什么？’
So, know, externally, people see our friends, you're like, girl, what are you doing?
到底怎么了？
What's going on?
大多数人可能会问：‘到底有什么不一样？’
You know, or most people go like, well, what's really different?
对啊。
Yeah.
到底哪里不一样？
What is really different?
不一样的是，你们会刻意划清界限，让彼此的关系更清晰、更有分寸。
What's different is that you try to create a demarcation that would enable you to have a much more differentiated relationship.
没错。
Yep.
你们不会对方一有举动，自己就立刻做出反应。
Where not everything one of you does, the other one has a reaction to.
对。
Yes.
没错。
Yes.
你可以称之为降温，但这种降温其实是和界限分明息息相关的。
So you can call it de escalating, but the de escalation is connected to the differentiation.
有趣的是，这到底是怎么起作用的呢？
And of course the interesting thing is how does it work?
为什么偏偏是性生活的缺失，反而帮你们做到了这一点？
And why is it that no sex becomes the thing that helps you do this?
因为如果你问，接下来我们该往哪儿走？
Because if you ask, you know, where do we go from here?
我猜这大概也是我们今天聚在这里的原因之一。
Which I'm assuming is a part of why we are here.
是这样吧？
Is that yeah?
是的。
Yes.
你知道，有时候你会觉得那种亲密感变得太过纠缠了。
You know, there is a way in which you experience a certain kind of closeness as becoming too enmeshed.
然后关系就变得反应性很强，你们俩反而在互相强化对方那些其实并不想要的模式。
And it becomes reactive and each of you starts to reinforce the mechanisms of the other, the very mechanisms that the other doesn't necessarily even want.
所以问题不在于我们怎么从现在回到浪漫情侣的状态，而在于我们怎么在亲密关系中保持更清晰的界限。
So how do you, the issue is not how do we go from this back to being a romantic couple, the issue is how do we maintain a more differentiated stance in our romantic relationship?
对。
Yeah.
我觉得没错，关键在于我们怎么守住各自的独立性。
I think, yes, that piece of like how do we maintain our individual autonomy of ourselves.
当我有了更多独立生活的空间，我才重新连接上了那个在旧模式里以为已经丢失的自己。
Having had the independence to live my life a bit more separately has allowed me to reengage with that part of myself that I thought was lost when I was feeling so rigid in the old dynamic.
我也看到他有了变化。
I've seen changes in him too.
所以我们现在在想，这些变化——我们在一起更开心了，相处方式也舒服多了，这种感觉是不是很久没体会过了？
So now we're like, Are these changes that we're seeing where we're having more fun together, we're hanging out in a way that feels better, like something we haven't felt in a long time?
这些变化是因为我们分开了才出现的，还是因为我们自己发生了改变，现在又能重新连接上那些部分了？
Are they a byproduct of us being separated or are they a byproduct of us changing something about ourselves that we can now re engage in?
但这两者其实是同步发生的。
But they are going together.
这种分离让你俩都能在不依赖对方的情况下，强化自己内在的某些部分。
It's the kind of separation that is enabling each of you to strengthen certain parts inside of you without needing the other person to do it for you.
对。
Yeah.
没错，这正是我们想表达的。
That's Yeah, These what we're trying to
它们是相互关联的。
are connected.
如果他不是我的‘玩伴’，那我就得更贴近自己内心渴望快乐的那部分，同时面对随之而来的焦虑。
If he's not my boy toy, then I have to become more connected to the part of me that wants fun and deal with the anxiety that comes with it.
如果他不再扮演那个提供结构和界限的角色，
If I don't have him being the Mr.
那我就得自己去找到这些，而不是觉得这样一来，我就变得无趣、不招人待见、没吸引力，就像你所说的‘健康关系’背后那些刻板印象一样。
Structure and Containment, then I have to find some of this myself without thinking that that makes me boring and unwanted and undesirable as a friend and all of these associations that come with what you have called wholesome.
分离本身并不是关键。
It's not the separation just as such.
这种分离还意味着，有些话你再也不能说了。
The separation also means that there's certain comments you no longer can make.
你不再有权利随意介入我的内心世界，告诉我你对它的看法。
You don't have the same privilege to intrude on my internal landscape to tell me what you think about it.
当这种分离是为了关系更好而存在时，它会迫使你保持一定的距离。
When you have that kind of separation for the benefit of the relationship, it forces you to maintain a certain distance.
因此，我更多地开始和自己对话。
Therefore I enter more into a conversation with myself.
我不再总是依赖外界来回应我了。
I'm not in stereo system all the time.
你平时听什么音乐？
What's your music?
我？
Me?
哦，我听的类型可多了
Oh, I like a lot
各种各样的。
of things.
你应该是挺爱音乐的吧？
You're a music guy, right?
是啊，我确实挺爱音乐的。
Yeah, I'm a music guy.
我就猜你是这样。
Yeah, that's what I thought.
比如嘻哈、R&B、流行乐，你懂的吧？
Like hip hop, R and B, pop, you know what I mean?
再加点布兰妮·斯皮尔斯的歌。
Throw in a little Britney Spears.
你要记住的是，他可能喜欢别的音乐，但这不影响你喜欢自己喜欢的音乐。
So that's the thing you need to remember is he may like other music and it doesn't change how you like the music you like.
是的。
Yeah.
因为那是你内心的东西。
Because that's inside of you.
你对这一点非常清楚，也很有自信。
That's something you feel very clear and confident about.
所以如果他说，我讨厌这种音乐，或者你怎么能听这种东西，来，告诉我你平时听什么？
So if he says, I hate that kind of music or how can you listen to this or come and listen to whatever, what are you into?
更像是摇滚乐。
More like rock music.
好的，明白了。
Okay, alright.
你知道，这根本不会让你动摇。
You know, it doesn't ruffle you.
就是这样。
That
你对音乐的那种感觉，正是你在生活中其他事情上也该培养的心态。
feeling that you have around music is what you want to develop around the other things in life.
没错。
Yes.
说白了，就是多做些完全不受他人影响的决定。
That's what it is, is just making more decisions that are totally based off of no influence from anyone else or anyone.
你才能真正清楚自己想要什么，然后得到它，而不是为了迁就别人，或者因为别人的看法而改变主意。
You get to actually know exactly what you want, and you get what you want instead of either compromising with someone else or changing your decision based off of whatever someone thinks.
就是，这才是你真正想要的。
It's like, no, this is what you want.
你坚定地站在自己的选择里。
You're standing in it.
你特别坚定。
You're steadfast.
没人能改变你的想法，也没人对它指手画脚。
No one's changing what you want, and no one has an opinion about it.
就算有，那也随他们去吧。
Or if they do, it's whatever.
你提到音乐真有意思，虽然我们喜欢的风格完全不同，但音乐却是我们连接的纽带。
It's funny you bring up music because it's been a place that we've connected even though it's so different for us.
就像一个我们共同抵达的领域。
It's like a sphere that we meet at.
我们去唱KTV，玩得特别开心。
We go to karaoke, and we have so much fun.
我们在家也经常唱歌。
We sing in the house.
我们都喜欢唱。
We both like to sing.
我放一首乡村摇滚，你听一下，然后你放你的R&B流行歌，我也听，然后我们就互相点评一下。
I put on my country rock song, you listen to it, and then you put on your R and B pop song and I listen to it and then we kind of like
给彼此提点意见。
Give each other notes
对歌曲提点建议。
on notes on it.
所以你们有个固定模式。
So you have a template.
对的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
这样你能更清楚地感受到，当风格差异更大时是什么感觉。
It gives you a sense of what does it feel like when it's more differentiated.
是的。
Yes.
那我该怎么保持和他之间的亲近与亲密，又不至于完全失去自我，融入他里面呢？
So how do I maintain that closeness to him, that intimacy with him without that sense that I relinquish, that I melt into him?
没错，这正是现在要面对的问题。
Yes, that's the question now.
如果我们回头再谈这个，我能不能在不被你干扰的情况下，培养自己的独立性，专注于我自己的部分？比如那些你让我敏感、让你的行为引发我情绪的事情。
If we do go back to this, can I build this autonomy or work on this individual piece of me without being distracted by you and maybe the things that trigger me about you and what you're doing?
这就是更高一层的自我分化。
That's the next level of differentiation.
是的。
Yeah.
你可以有自己的看法，但我的观点不会因此就消失或被抹掉。
You get to have your opinion, but mine doesn't dissolve because of it.
也不必因此变得敌对。
And neither does it have to become belligerent.
也不用变得具有攻击性。
Offensive.
防备的，攻击的，没错。
Defensive, Offensive, yes.
就像一场争吵。
Like a fight.
对，没错。
Yeah, yeah.
那你为什么这么急着现在就要解开这个谜题呢？
You know, so why the urgency to solve the riddle now?
是啊。
Yeah.
我觉得问题是，我们能一直这样下去吗？
I think it's like, can we go on like this forever and like
为什么是永远？
Why forever?
首先，先继续说。
Go on, first of all.
不一定是现在跟永远二选一。
Doesn't have to be forever versus now.
更像是昨天跟永远不的对比。
Guess Yesterday versus never.
对我来说，我其实处在一种模糊状态，不确定我们算不算在一起。
For me, I guess it's a limbo of like, are we together?
我们到底算不算一对？
Are we not together?
还是说，我们只是有情感联系的室友？
Are we just kind of roommates just with the connection?
我觉得，我只是想要一个明确的说法，这样才能继续下去。
You know, I guess it's me wanting a definition, then like In order to?
然后才能谈更进一步的承诺，比如，我们接下来十年还打算一起住吗？
Then a further commitment, I guess, of like, are we going to continue living together for the next ten years?
我们会不会结婚？
Are we going get married?
因为这时间可不短啊，你懂我的意思吧？
Because, you know, it's a long time, you know what I mean?
还是说我们最终会搬出去，真正完成这个转变？
Or are we gonna eventually move out and kind of really, really make that transition?
所以我想，我只是想摆脱我们一直陷着的这种状态，已经有一年了，
So I guess it's just getting out of the limbo that we've been in for like
一年了，
A year.
现在是一年了，
A year now, so
问题是，我们现在这种状态，是不是在拖慢我们走向别的可能？其实也没什么。
Or is the question is, is the current state that we're in holding us back from other there's nothing on Yeah.
没有任何书面约定。
There's nothing on paper.
谁也没束缚着谁。
No one's holding each other back.
不，不是的。
-No, no.
我同意。
I agree.
但咱们是不是在心理上自己拖了自己的后腿？
-But, like, are we psychologically holding ourselves back?
我倒也不是特别讨厌现在这样。
I don't necessarily dislike it.
我只是不确定这种状态能不能一直持续下去。
I just don't know if you can do it in perpetuity.
先别管什么永久不永久了。
Now forget the perpetuity for a second.
你老是在‘立刻行动’和‘永远不行动’之间来回摇摆。
You keep going back and forth between on the spot versus never.
但你有没有想过，正是这种模糊不清、松散的状态，虽然让人不安，却也恰恰为我们俩创造了空间，让我们能真正做出那些一直想做的改变。
But what if have you ever wondered that in fact it is the very lack of definition, that looseness that can feel destabilizing, that is also creating the space for both of us to actually make the changes that we've been wanting to make.
当我们被定义、被束缚的时候，反而卡住了。
When we were defined and committed, we got stuck.
你不是卡住了，你是没被定义，这跟传统的剧本、完美的剧本完全相反。
You're not stuck, you're undefined, which is contrary to traditional script, wholesome script.
我喜欢这个说法。
I like that.
那你到底算什么情况？
You know, what are you?
你们真的算在一起了吗？
Are you really together?
你们其实没在一起？
Are not together?
你们睡在一起吗？
Are you sleeping together?
你们根本没睡在一起？
You're not sleeping together?
你还会见其他人吗？
Do you see other people?
你不见其他人吗？
Do you not see other people?
这些其实可以用四五句话概括清楚。
It's kind of summarized in four or five questions.
是的。
Yeah.
你会惊讶于有多少人会直接问你，当然了。
You'd be surprised how many people ask you Of course.
当然了。
Of course.
你总觉得自己在辩解，好像得为自己的关系打官司一样。
You feel like you're on the defense, like you have to litigate your
你也可以直接说，这可能是我们很久以来最好的一段时光。
You can also just say it's probably one of the better times we've had in a long time.
确实是。
It is.
我们只能这么说。
That's all we can say.
这种脚下土地不断变动的感觉，实际上对我们有好处。
Something about this terra non ferma, this moving ground underneath us, is actually doing us good.
如果我们最终决定不再继续在一起，我们也已经培养出了一种能在人生中延续的关系成熟度。
And if we decide at some point not to stay together, we will have developed a type of maturity in relationships that we can take with us in life.
但不能因为感觉好点了，就马上停下来说要做出决定。
But it's like because we feel better, we should stop this and make a decision.
你感觉好多了，对吧？
You feel better, right?
有点吧，就是那么回事。
Kind of, that's kind of you know.
我感觉好点了，但也不能因此就把支具摘了。
Because I feel better I can't take off the brace.
但真正帮我走得好起来的，是这个支具。
But it is the brace that is helping me walk better.
没错。
Yeah.
有时候我之所以继续坚持，是因为它在推动我前进，而你需要活动，需要属于自己的改变。
Sometimes it's keeping on for a little longer because it's creating movement and you need movement and you need a change that is individual.
你在一段关系中处理自己的事，而这段关系给了你安全感，也给了你自由去面对这一切。
You're working on your own stuff in the context of a relationship that is giving you the safety and the freedom both to deal with this.
这确实挺特别的。
This is an unusual thing.
即使它没有名字，没人给它下定义，让人好奇，甚至觉得奇怪。
Even if it doesn't have a name and doesn't get defined and makes people curious and all of that.
是啊，去年开始，我们以前那些议论就停了。
Yeah, those comments we used to make stopped in the last year.
那些讽刺、轻蔑、贬低我们喜好的话，现在全没了，我对他的看法也完全不一样了。
The digs and the and snide the trivialization of what we like and I have like a whole new perspective of him.
所以我们正在学习如何以不同的方式建立关系。
So, we're learning how to be in relationship differently.
我们正在学着不让伴侣成为掩盖我们内心困扰的帮凶。
We're learning not to have our partner be part of a cover up operation of some of our inner challenges.
而且
And
我们拥有一个独特的机会。
we have a unique opportunity.
我们彼此深爱，愿意在这样一个并非人为造作、而是真正富有创意的框架里一起面对这一切。
We love each other enough to do this with each other in this artificial it's not even artificial, but in this creative actually construct that we've just come up with.
你和其他人发生过关系吗？
Do you sleep with other people?
你们在性方面是怎么安排的？
What do you do sex wise?
是的，我们会和其他人发生关系。
Yeah, we hook up with other people.
你们俩都和其他人有亲密关系。
You hook up with other Both of
是的。
you.
对。
Mhmm.
明白了。
Okay.
所以你们并不是因为缺爱才这样。
So, you're not like starving for the
不是。
No.
嗯，清楚了。
Okay.
对。
No.
你们会互相联系吗？
And do you connect with each other?
你们偶尔会见面吗？
Do you hook up with each other on occasion?
这一年里确实发生过几次。
It's happened over the year.
一直以来，这都让我感觉多了点什么。
It's always been something that's given me maybe a little bit more
因为你第一反应就是，这到底意味着什么？
Because you're instantly thinking what does it mean?
这代表我们复合了吗？
Does it mean we're back together?
这代表我们会重新联系吗？
Does it mean we're gonna connect?
我们会认真对待这段关系吗？
We're gonna commit?
我们要结婚吗？
We're gonna marry?
我们要孩子吗？
We're gonna have children?
我们要更进一步吗？
We're gonna be more?
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
那到底会怎样呢，你
That what is it gonna be You
你不是为了迎合异性才变 queer 的。
didn't become queer to do the straight.
我知道，对吧。
I know, right.
是的
Yeah.
太对了
That's so true.
别管那个了。
Like, leave that.
没错
Right.
没错
Right.
太对了
That's so true.
我的意思是，我懂。
I mean, I understand.
我的意思是，我明白。关键在于，如果我们跨越了那道界限，那到底意味着什么？无非就是我们彼此吸引，有着深厚的情感连接，也想用身体表达这份感觉，然后就到此为止，不管那天晚上、早上，还是什么时候，都到此为止。
It's like, what does it mean if we cross that ruby come again, It you means primarily that we were into each other and we have a deep connection and we wanted to express it also physically and leave it at that for that night or morning or whatever.
是的。
Yeah.
我们已经这样悬着快一年了，说实话，我自己也挺迷茫的。
We in limbo for about a year now, and I know for me, I'm kinda like, I don't know.
你没悬着。
You're not in limbo.
这正是我想说的。
That's what I'm Damn.
你其实没悬着，相反，你这是头一回真正往前走了。
It's an interesting thing that you're not in limbo, you're actually for the first time moving.
对。
True.
而且在改变你们之间的互动模式。
And shifting the dynamic.
所以对你来说，独立意味着即使面对一个很有主见的人，也能清楚知道自己接下来想要什么、怎么想——这才是锻炼你内心力量的唯一方式。
So autonomy for you is the ability to even know what you want or think next to someone who is opinionated, which is the only way you can train your muscles.
所以，找一个立场坚定、有主见的人，你就能磨炼自己。
So, you find yourself a good rigid opinionated guy and then you can hone your chops.
你明白吗？
Do you understand?
是的，我明白。
Yeah, I do understand.
对，我懂。
Yeah, I do.
对。
Yeah.
这话说得很有道理。
It makes a lot of lot of sense.
你之前问我们接下来该去哪儿，我一路想的只有一件事：如果这件事继续这样下去，而且感觉不错，答案自然就出来了。
So, you asked where we go from here and my only thought that accompanied me the whole time is if this thing continues as it is going and it feels good, you will have your answer.
但别把它扼杀了。
But don't choke it.
因为我们应该明白，真的应该明白，必须明白。
Because we should know, we should know, we should know.
我们心里清楚。
We know.
我们真正知道的，是那些标题里没有、却实实在在发生在我们之间、改变着我们内心的东西，这些我们都懂。
What we know is what we are experiencing that is not in the title but that is in the actual interaction, in the things that are changing inside of us and between us, that we know.
如果这种感觉持续下去，你就会觉得，这真美，这就是我想共度一生的人；或者你会说，这是一段美好的爱情，但不会成为一生的故事。
And if that continues, then we will either say it's beautiful and this is who I want to make my life with or you will say this was a beautiful love story but it won't be a life story.
是的。
Yeah.
这种事，外人根本没法替你回答。
It's like there's nothing somebody from the outside answer here.
归根结底，这段关系的质量，取决于你自己的选择。
It's really the quality of the relationship is going to be with what you decide.
是的。
Yeah.
我喜欢这个想法，如果我们真的能让屋顶上的地面不再晃动，反而会阻碍前进的动力。
I like that concept of like if we did, you know, somehow make the ground stop moving on the roof, it wouldn't allow for the movement forward.
我们不是再次停滞，就是根本没法继续向前走。
We would either get stuck again or, I don't know, just, it wouldn't allow us to keep moving forward.
所以说，不确定性其实是一种良药，没错。
So in a way the uncertainty is the medicine, I Yes.
很多人经常问我，是不是得先把自己修好了，才能进入一段关系。
So often people ask me if they should work on themselves, in quote, before they can be in a relationship.
这种观点在我们这个高度个人主义的社会里，早就被当成理所当然了。
And this is a very accepted notion in our very individualistic society.
先躲起来，跟自己处好关系，把问题都解决掉，等你觉得自己够好了，再去找一个能像你爱自己那样爱你的人。
Go away, retreat, have a relationship with yourself, work out the kinks, and then when you feel good about yourself, then go and find someone who is gonna feel equally good about you as you do.
但我一直对这种说法存疑。
And I've always had a challenge with that promise.
当然，对某些人来说，这确实是必要的过程。
I think that for some people that is obviously what needs to happen.
但这对伴侣恰恰完美地展示了另一种可能性。
But this is the perfect example of a couple where the other version of this exists.
正是这段关系，激发出他们各自内心深处的挑战、脆弱、障碍和恐惧，而他们能在关系的框架里，独自面对并化解这些问题。
It is the relationship that brings out individual challenges, vulnerabilities, obstacles, fears that reside in each of them and that they get to work out each of them by themselves but in the context of the relationship.
我个人认为，这种方式同样重要，甚至更重要，因为我接触过很多独处时对自己充满疑问的人。
And I happen to think that this is equally, if not more, relevant because I've worked with many people who have a lot of inquiries about themselves when they are alone.
但只有当你和另一个人相处，被他触动、被他激出反应时，你才能在真实的生活里、在当下的时刻，真正练习不同的应对方式。
But it's only when you are with another person person who pushes the buttons, who makes you react, that you actually in real life, in the moment, get to practice something else.
《与伊莱莎·佩雷尔开始对话》由Magnificent Noise制作。
Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise.
我们是Vox Media播客网络的一部分，与《纽约杂志》和《The Cut》合作。
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.
我们的制作团队包括埃里克·努苏姆、德斯特里·西布尔、萨布丽娜·法尔希、克里斯汀·穆勒和朱利安·阿滕。
Our production staff includes Eric Nousum, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Atten.
原创音乐及额外制作由保罗·施耐德负责。
Original music, an additional production, by Paul Schneider.
《我们从哪里开始》的执行制片人是
And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin?
埃丝特·佩雷尔和杰西·贝克。
Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.
我们还要感谢科特尼·汉密尔顿、玛丽·艾丽斯·米勒和杰克·索尔。
We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
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