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我和我妈
My mom and I have
过去十年里经历了不少阶段，总有个循环反复出现。
gone through many phases over the last ten years, and there's this cycle that typically goes.
一切看起来都还行。
Everything's kind of fine.
她做些事、说些话让我觉得不舒服或者难过，但我自己默默扛着。
She's doing things or saying things that make me feel uncomfortable or upset, but I'm, you know, dealing with them on my own.
我从不提出来。
I'm not expressing it.
直到某天实在撑不住了，所有情绪一下子爆发出来。
And then at some point, it all becomes too much, and it all comes out.
我就把心里话全说了。
So I say how I feel.
这让她特别生气。
That makes her angry.
我们有一阵子不说话，然后会来一次和解对话，那时候我有点小心翼翼地觉得，也许我们能建立起另一种关系，但过不了多久，又回到原点，循环往复。
We don't talk for a while, then we have some sort of resolution conversation in which I feel cautiously optimistic that a different kind of relationship is possible, then we kind of rinse and repeat.
所以当我第一次主动联系她的时候，我们又正好处在这个循环的起点。
And so when I first reached out, we were kind of at the beginning of that cycle again.
我们刚吵完一架，我当时就觉得，也现在还是觉得，一定得试试别的办法，因为我真的感觉，自己一直在撞同一堵墙。
We'd had one of those blowout conversations, and I was just feeling and and still am feeling like there's gotta be something else to try because I really feel like I'm just running into the same wall over and over again.
现在吧，我跟我妈又回到了比较平静的状态，会聊天了，但我心里还是挺防着她的。
You know, now I would say my mom and I are kind of back at in a peaceful place where we're speaking, but I still feel quite guarded.
所以我想问的核心问题是：有没有别的办法？
And so I guess my central question, is there another way to do this?
有没有一种方式，能让我和她相处、重建关系，既不用把自己置于情感危险里，又不用压抑自己真实的伤痛？
Is there another way that I can interact with her and rebuild this relationship that doesn't leave me feeling either like I'm putting myself in an emotionally unsafe position or I'm ignoring my true feelings of hurt.
建议确实挺有用的。
Recommendations can be great.
也许有人推荐了这个播客，你才听到这儿的。
Maybe someone recommended this podcast, and here you are.
但家里的活儿可不一样。
But home projects are a little different.
要是你不爱听播客，最多就是浪费几分钟时间。
If the podcast isn't your thing, you might lose a few minutes from your day.
可要是你找表弟的邻居来装电视，搞不好电视装歪了，墙还给你砸坏了。
But if you hire your cousin's neighbor to mount your TV, you might end up with a lopsided screen and wall damage.
靠熟人介绍，可不是搞家装的好办法。
I know a guy isn't a good strategy for your home.
所以Thumbtack才这么管用。
That's why thumbtack works so well.
它能帮你找到本地评分最高的专业师傅，照片、评价、资质全都在一个地方，一目了然。
It matches you with top rated local pros with photos, reviews, and credentials all in one convenient place.
下次搞家装，试试Thumbtack吧。
For your next home project, try Thumbtack.
今天就找个靠谱的师傅吧。
Hire the right pro today.
大家好，我是萨莉·赫尔姆。
Hi, I'm Sally Helm.
炎症。
Inflammation.
最近我看到好多人在谈这个话题，尤其是TikTok上。
It is something I've been seeing a lot of people talk about, especially on TikTok.
他们说，炎症简直就是我们健康问题的根源。
And according to them, inflammation is basically the whole problem with our health.
它会导致心脏病、焦虑、长痘。
It causes heart problems, anxiety, acne.
说不定还是所有疾病的元凶。
It is maybe even the root of all diseases.
那这话到底靠不靠谱？
So how accurate is that?
本周《不可解释》就来聊聊这个。
That's this week on Unexplainable.
现在吧，我跟妈妈一相处就特别拧巴。
At this moment, what I mainly know is my mom and I get into knots.
我老是卡住，走不出来。
I get stuck.
我不知道该怎么平衡：既要照顾她，又不觉得自己牺牲了自己；可要是坚持做自己，又觉得跟她没法亲近。
I don't know what I need to do in order, A, to accommodate her without feeling that then I abandon myself or I stay close to my truth, and then I feel like I can't connect with her.
我喜欢你用‘重复循环’这个词，因为你等于在说：我被困住了。
And I love the rinse and repeat image because what you're admitting is I'm stuck.
我明白，这样下去真不是办法。
I realize this isn't the way to go about it.
我想找条新路，也愿意冒险——毕竟你已经主动联系我两次了。
I would like to find a different route, and I'm ready to take the risk because you've reached out twice.
我觉得这是个信号，说明也许真有另一种相处方式。
So I see that as an invitation to see if there is a whole different way to go about this.
但我还是想多听你说点，把这事儿说得更清楚点。
But I do need to hear a little more from you and to get a little bit more color to the palace.
当然。
Absolutely.
对。
Yeah.
我是在一个充满爱的双母家庭长大的，就我和我弟弟，还有两位妈妈。
So I grew up in a very loving nuclear family of two moms, me and my brother.
我爸妈关系特别亲密，我们全家也特别融洽。
And my parents had a very close relationship, and our family had a close relationship.
他们的关系和婚姻是我们家庭身份的核心，毕竟他们是两个女人。
And their relationship and marriage was was really central to our family identity because they were two women.
在九十年代，两个女人组建家庭，连法律都不承认，也没有保护。
And they were two women having a family in the nineties, and they didn't have the legal recognition and protection.
所以她们特别用心，尽自己所能，全心全意地维系这段关系。
And so they really went out of their way as they had to and as they chose to to be incredibly intentional and devoted to that.
你们出生之前，她们就已经在一起了？
And they were together before they had the two of you?
是的。
Yes.
他们在一起很久了，大概十多年了吧，我觉得。
They had been together for a while, maybe over ten years, I think.
而且
And
每个都是她们亲生的。
they're each born child or the Yes.
亲生的那个。
The each born one.
对。
Mhmm.
那你现在跟谁关系比较紧张？
And the one that you're having the tension with?
她不是我的亲生妈妈。
She is my non biological mother.
好吧。
Okay.
我19岁那年，我爸妈分开了。
When I was 19, my parents split up.
我不是想夸张，但那真的让我崩溃了。
And it was not to be dramatic, but it really was devastating.
完全毫无预兆，就像晴天霹雳。
It really felt like it came completely out of nowhere.
感觉特别混乱，整个人都碎了。
It just felt so confusing and shattering.
头几周我人不在家。
And for the first few weeks, I wasn't at home during this time.
可我天天打电话问：到底发生什么事了？
But over the phone, I kept asking, what what happened?
这太不合理了。
This doesn't make sense.
这事儿我怎么都想不通。
This, like, doesn't add up to me.
他们就是不肯告诉我，死活不肯说。
And they didn't wanna tell me, and they didn't wanna tell me, and they didn't wanna tell me.
最后，我妈才告诉我，她出轨了。
And then finally, my mother told me that she'd had an affair.
他们后来试着挽回了一阵子，但那是十年前的事了。
And they tried for for a while to repair the relationship, and this was ten years ago now.
对。
Mhmm.
分开几年后他们还是离了婚，现在各自都有了新伴侣。
They ended up getting divorced a few years after they separated, and they both have new partners.
刚开始那会儿，我特别难熬，之后也一直没缓过来。
And it was very hard for me for you know, at at the beginning of that, and it continued to be hard.
到现在，我对这件事还是有很多复杂的情绪。
And I continue to have complex emotions about it.
但总的来说，我和另一位妈妈现在关系很好，整个局面也趋于平静，之后发生了很多特别美好的事。
But overwhelmingly, I'm at a place with my other mom, definitely, and kind of with the scenario really of peace where so many wonderful things have come since then.
我以前特别讨厌的那位妈妈的新伴侣，老天保佑他有耐心包容我，现在却成了我生命中非常重要的人。
My other mother's new partner who I absolutely resented so intensely, and God bless him for his patience with me, is now an incredibly important person in my life.
而剩下的，就是我和那个出轨的妈妈之间这段特别艰难的关系。
And what remains is this incredibly difficult relationship with the mother who had the affair.
这是故事的一部分吗？
Is that a piece of the story?
她出轨、关系破裂，这些是关键吗？
Is the fact that she had an affair, the fact that the relationship dissolved?
这确实是故事的一部分，因为所有问题的核心，都是她拒绝为自己的行为承担责任。
So it's a piece of the story because the central conflict that kind of underlies all of our issues, it's her refusal to take any responsibility for her own role in what happened.
在她眼里，她根本没做错什么。
So in in her mind, she didn't do anything wrong.
这一切都是发生在她身上的事。
You know, this all happened to her.
在她心里，这事跟她一点关系都没有。
And in her mind, she does not have any responsibility in that.
那时候，我觉得所有责任全在她身上。
And at the time, I felt very much like all of the responsibility is hers.
现在我明白没那么简单了，事情从来都不是非黑即白的。
And now I'm have much more nuance than that, and I I recognize that it never is as simple as that.
我完全不怪她了。
And I don't completely blame her at all.
但她就是不肯承认自己的所作所为对我造成了多大影响。
But she won't recognize her own actions and how they've affected me.
每次聊到最后，她都希望我能为她难过，体会她失去家人的痛苦。
And it just always comes back to that for me where she wants me to feel bad for her and feel the sorrow that she's lost her family.
可我真的没办法陪她演这出戏。
And I am just like, I just can't I can't go there with her.
你能不能说几句让我听听这台词是啥样？
Give me a few lines just so I can hear the the script.
她会说，我因为发生的一切感到特别受伤，你觉得你从没承认过我的感受，也没想过你的行为对我造成了多大影响。
It goes something like, I feel really hurt by everything that happened, and I feel as if you've never acknowledged those feelings and how your actions affected me.
然后她会说，我那时候也受伤了啊。
And she'll say, well, I was hurt too.
我也失去了家人。
I lost my family too.
我会说，我知道。
And I'll say, yes.
我明白，但那件事我根本没得选。
I understand that, but I didn't have any say in it.
我当时只是个孩子，而你是大人。
I was the kid in this scenario, and you were the adult.
我们就这样来回拉扯，她说我根本没有资格对你这么生气。
And it goes kind of back and forth on that where she says, well, you don't have the the right to be so upset at me.
我什么都没做错。
I didn't do anything.
这种事总会发生的。
These things happen.
她和我另一位妈妈之间没什么来往，因为另一位妈妈也觉得，只要她不承认自己的责任，就根本没法放下，最后只好选择离开。
And she and my other mother don't really have a relationship because my other mother also found it difficult to move on without her acknowledging her responsibility, and so she chose to walk away.
这事儿挺难的，因为我妈特别嫉妒我和另一位妈妈的关系，我和她本来就相处得不好。
And it's difficult because the jealousy that comes from my mother who I have a difficult time with, like, she's jealous of my relationship with my other mom.
她一直陷在这个心态里，真的……
She's she's very stuck in this, like
我问你个问题。
So let me ask you something.
这种防御心理、逃避责任、总找借口，是她第一次这样吗？
These traits of defensiveness, lack of accountability, justification of one's actions, Is that the first time that she acted this way?
还是说，你早就认识这样的她，只是现在她把这些老一套用在了新的情况上？
Or this is the woman you've actually always known that now applied it to another set of circumstances?
你们俩以前闹矛盾、你生气、想表达不满的时候，都是怎么相处的？
What's the history between the two of you when you're upset, when you're mad, when you're frustrated, where you wanna make a comment?
当你的感受和她的相反时，你的感受有被允许、被承认过吗？
Are your feelings at all allowed, recognized if they counter hers?
你那时候才19岁。
You were 19.
对吧？
Right?
在那之前，你们已经相处了十九年了。
So there was nineteen years of history before that.
是的。
Yeah.
事情发生的时候，感觉就像彻底换了个人。
When it happened and it it felt very much like a night and day shift.
我简直想问，这人是谁？
It felt very much like, who is this person?
我都不认识她了。
I don't recognize her.
是的
Mhmm.
好吧
Okay.
现在回过头看，有些事就说得通了。
With more time and hindsight, some of it tracks more.
我也能看出，我另一个妈妈是怎么中和她的，她没那么激烈。
And I'm able to see ways in which my other mom balanced her out, and she wasn't as intense.
但确实有过几次。
But there were a few times.
有几次她的情绪完全压倒了一切，简直像蒙着眼睛一样。
There definitely were when her emotions trumped all else, and it was like she had blinders on.
你跟另一个妈妈聊起这事时，她怎么说？
And when you talk about it with your other mom, what does she say?
她挺理解的。
She's sympathetic.
她希望我别这么难熬。
She wishes it weren't so difficult for me.
她懂我的感受，因为她自己也经历过。
She understands what I'm feeling because she's felt it.
她给自己设了明确的界限，保护自己。
And she has set a firm boundary of protecting herself.
她非常支持我跟另一位妈妈的关系。
And she's very supportive of me around my relationship with my other mom.
她总主动说要少陪我，好让另一位妈妈多陪陪我，这真让我头疼——虽然我知道她是好意。
She's always offering to have less time with me so that my other mom can have more time with me, which is just frustrating because that's not what I want in that, you know, it's it's sweet.
但是
But
但这也让你更想多陪陪她。
But it makes you wanna have more time with her.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
没错。
Yeah.
那你希望怎样？
What would you want?
你是希望她更理解你的经历，还是希望她换种方式跟你相处？
Do you want her to recognize more of your experience or you want a different way of dealing with her?
这不一样。
It's not the same.
对吧？
Right?
这不一样。
It's not the same.
我在想，她其实并不是完全不懂我的情绪和感受，我觉得她也有她自己的方式在关心我。
And I'm thinking about how she's not completely unaware to my emotions and my feelings, and I think she is sympathetic in her way.
你有没有试过直接问她，对你来说，承认这段经历真的让我很痛苦，有这么难吗？
Like, have you ever had a chance of simply asking her, is it difficult for you to recognize that this was a real painful experience for me?
而且这并不意味着对你来说就不痛苦。
And that that doesn't mean that it wasn't painful for you too.
但你是觉得，因为你觉得自己也造成了我的痛苦，还是觉得我说这些的时候，我没有认可你的感受？
But is it difficult for you because you feel like you contributed to my pain or because you think that when I say that, I don't recognize yours?
我只是很好奇。
I'm just curious.
我们之前聊过很多次类似的话题。
We've had many conversations that are in that vein.
对。
Mhmm.
通常情况都更情绪化，因为我自己情绪上也更激动，因为我已经到了一个地步，心里憋着一堆东西。
It's usually much more emotionally charged because well, I'm much more emotionally charged because I've let myself get to a point where I have all this pent up Mhmm.
总觉得我得压着自己的需求、舒适感和信念，只为了能和平相处，可她就会特别防备。
Feeling of feeling as if I'm putting my own desires and comfort and beliefs on hold so that we can be civil and she gets very defensive.
你有没有试过，单纯地问问她的感受，而不夹带自己的立场？
Have you ever had the opportunity of asking her just about her own experience without inserting yours?
你就跟我说说吧，按你看到的样子，把你的故事讲给我听。
Just kind of tell me, you know, tell me the story as you see it.
我没这么做过，真的很难想象这么做。
I haven't, and it's hard to imagine that.
对。
Mhmm.
也许我卡在这里，就是得放下的那部分。
And maybe this is the place where I'm stuck and it's the part that I have to let go of.
但听你这么说，我想回一句：那她凭什么要给我更多空间，让我讲讲我的故事？
But hearing you say that, I wanna say, but she's like, why should I give her more grace and room to share her story?
我们聊的全都是她的故事、她的痛苦。
All we've been talking about is her story and her pain.
确实如此。
That is true.
这事儿不是要让她更认可你。
This is not gonna be about how you make her recognize you more.
而是你要怎么换种方式对待她。
This is gonna be about how you deal with her differently.
我觉得我待会儿说的有些话，可能会让你心里不舒服。
And I have a feeling that some of the things I'm gonna say are gonna twist your stomach.
没关系。
That's okay.
我们得想明白，其实也不是非得这样，但我觉得你得松开手——因为你总回去，就为了要回那些你根本得不到的东西，结果越要不到，越想回去要更多。
Because we have to go well, we don't have to, but because I'm imagining loosening the grip because you keep coming back to receive something that you don't get and that makes you come back for more that you don't get.
然后你就卡在两个选择之间：要么认输，要么硬撑，好像就这两条路。
And then you're stuck between do I give in or do I hold up as if there's only two options.
我琢磨着，当你问她那个问题的时候，不如就静静听她讲十分钟，别一开口就觉得自己在牺牲、在妥协，就单纯好奇一下，别老想着：她都没给我什么，我凭什么要给她？
And I'm thinking when you ask her that question, you just kinda say, okay, can I listen for ten minutes to her without instantly feeling that I'm sacrificing myself and compromising my own integrity and just simply be curious without thinking why shall I give her when she gives me nothing?
我给她，是因为我好奇，是因为我真的想搞清楚这事儿。
I give her because I'm curious because I wanna actually figure this out.
这就是我唯一的理由。
That's my only reason.
而且我觉得我做的这些根本没用。
And because I don't feel that what I do works.
我不知道该改做点啥，但我知道一件事——我现在的做法根本行不通。
I don't know what I want to do instead, but one thing I know is that what I do is not working.
支持《我们从哪里开始？》
Support for Where Should We Begin?
由Osea赞助。
Comes from Osia.
你值得好好休息，但你不可能总能如愿。
You deserve good rest, but you're not always going to get it.
那些你筋疲力尽、快撑不住的日子，最先出问题的往往是你的皮肤。
And on those days when you're stretched a little thin or running on fumes, one of the first places that can show up is your skin.
Osea想帮你建立一套靠谱的护肤routine，让你和你那美丽的皮肤，都能得到应得的休息。
Osea wants to help you develop a good routine so that you and your beautiful skin can get the rest you deserve.
他们的Dream Collection系列专为夜间修复压力带来的肌肤问题而设计。
Their line of Dream Collection products were developed to help reduce the visible effects of stress on your skin, all while you sleep.
Dream Bio视黄醇身体精华更是绝佳的修复产品，香味还特别迷人。
And the Dream Bio Retinal Body Serum is the perfect restorative treatment that smells heavenly.
最近我最钟爱的Osia产品是透明质酸海藻精华。
My favorite Osia product lately is the Hyaluronic Sea Serum.
换季的时候，我喜欢调整护肤步骤，换不同的精华，海藻精华的保湿力度刚刚好，一整天都hold得住。
As the weather changes, I like to incorporate different serums into my skincare routine, and I find the level of moisture of the Sea Serum just right, and it lasts all day.
用Osia纯净且经过临床验证的护肤品，给肌肤放个假吧。
Give your skin a rest with clean, clinically tested skincare from Osia.
现在，他们还为我们的听众准备了专属优惠。
And right now, they have a special discount just for our listeners.
访问osiamalibu.com，使用代码Esther，首单立享九折。
Get 10% off your first order site wide with code Esther at osiamalibu.com.
支持《我们该从哪里开始？'
Support for Where Should We Begin?
这是Quinn's家的。
Comes from Quinn's.
换季时整理一下衣橱挺好的，别只追求数量，更要注重质量。
Sometimes it's nice to do a little spring reset with your closet to make sure you're focusing more on quality than quantity.
如果你想找些耐穿又高级的单品，不妨看看Quinn's，他们用的是100%欧洲亚麻、有机棉和超柔软牛仔布，做出来的日常款特别棒，起步价才50美元左右。而且Quinn's直接跟工厂合作，省掉中间商，你付的钱全是实打实的品质，不是品牌溢价。
So if you're looking for elevated looks you'll be able to wear year after year, you might want to check out Quinn's is offering beautiful everyday pieces using premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton and super soft denim, with styles starting around $50 Plus, QUINDS works directly with factories and cuts out the middleman, so you're paying for quality and not brand markup.
最近我特别看中那件可水洗的弹力真丝背心。
Lately, I've been eyeing the washable stretch silk tank.
天一暖和，这衣服简直是必备单品，穿起来舒服，春天搭外套也特别合适。
It looks like a fantastic essential piece to throw on now that the weather is warming up, perfect for layering this spring.
用Quinn's焕新你的衣橱吧。
Refresh your wardrobe with Quinn's.
别拖了。
Don't wait.
去 quince.com/begin 下单，包邮还支持365天无理由退换。
Go to quince.com/ begin for free shipping on your order and three sixty five day returns.
现在加拿大也能买了。
Now available in Canada too.
去 quince.com/begin，享受免费配送和365天无理由退换。
That's quince.com/ begin to get free shipping and three sixty five day returns.
quince.com/begin。
Queens.com/begin.
《我们该从哪里开始》由 Shopify 赞助支持。
Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify.
创业之初，你心里总免不了会想：万一失败了怎么办？
When starting a business, there's always the question at the back of your mind, What if I fail?
但反过来想，要是你没失败呢？
The other side of that is, of course, what if you don't?
答案只有一个：试试看才知道。
There's only one way to find out.
有了 Shopify，你就能把想法变成现实。
You can make it happen with the help of Shopify.
全球数百万家企业都在用Shopify做电商，从刚起步的小店到家喻户晓的大品牌都靠它。
Millions of businesses around the world rely on Shopify for e commerce, from businesses just getting started to household name brands.
从支付处理、数据分析到网站设计，它都能帮你搞定。
It can help you with everything from payment processing to analytics to website design.
几百种模板随便挑，轻松打造一个高大上的网站。
Choose from hundreds of templates to create a great looking website.
他们的邮件和营销工具，能帮你打响名气，跟客户保持联系。
Their email and marketing tools can help you get your name out there and stay connected with customers.
万一遇到问题，Shopify的24/7获奖客服团队随时为你撑腰。
And if you ever need help, Shopify's 20 fourseven award winning customer support has got you back.
今天就用Shopify，把那些‘万一’变成实实在在的生意。
You can turn those what ifs into a thriving business with Shopify today.
现在就去shopify.com/estherpere，注册只要1美元/月的试用期。
You can sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com/estherpere.
直接访问shopify.com/estherpere就行。
You can go to shopify dot com slash estherpere.
就是 shopify.com/estherpere。
That's shopify.com/estherpere.
我刚听错了吗？你马上要结婚了？
Did I read correctly that you are getting married?
对。
Yes.
这时候聊这个，还真是挺巧的，对吧？
So this is an interesting moment to be having this conversation, right?
因为这事儿得想清楚，比如我到底想让她参与多少，能走多近，诸如此类。
Because part of it is gonna be how much do I want her involved and how close can she come to me, etcetera.
我来想想看怎么说。
Here's what I'm gonna do.
我边想边说，你用手指比个数给我，往上是赞成，往下是反对，或者直接比个二或者五。
I'm gonna think out loud a few and you can with your finger tell me up or down, or you can tell me two or five.
五比二更好。
Five means better than two.
咱们来玩个小游戏吧。
And we're gonna just play a little game.
有些事看起来挺矛盾的。
Some of this is often paradoxical.
咱们说清楚啊，这可不是要你字面理解。
Just so we are clear, it is not meant to be taken at a literal level.
其中一个选择就是直接这样。
One option is exactly this.
我注意到，你好多次都想告诉我这事对你有多难。
You know, I noticed that many times you've been trying to tell me how hard this was for you.
可惜啊，你好像只在我主动问的时候才说，其实我很想听。
And unfortunately, it's as if you're saying it only when I come to try to tell you, but I'd love to hear.
你坐下来，拿支笔，拿张纸，把想法写下来，这样就不必马上反应了。
And then you sit down, you take a pen, you take a piece of paper and you write it down so that you don't have to react.
你就说吧，让我看看这位女士是怎么把她的故事串起来的。
And you just say, let me see how this woman puts her story together.
第二种情况是，你其实一直想告诉我点什么。
Option two is there's something you've been trying to tell me.
但我们总绕来绕去，卡在同一个地方。
And we seem to always circle back and know at the same bone.
真有意思。
Curious.
每回你说‘我很好奇’，就得打一场仗。
Now every time you say I'm curious, you're gonna have to fight.
为啥非得我好奇？她就不能好奇吗？
Why do I have to be curious and why should she not be curious?
为啥非得是我？
Why me?
就是因为你总想跟她说清楚，划清界限。
Simply because you're trying to differentiate yourself from her.
因为你根本不喜欢这么做，可你还是在为自己的情绪做这件事。
Because you don't like what you're doing and you're doing it for yourself.
你这么做，不是觉得这样能让她轻松点，或者给她开脱。
You're not doing it because you think it makes life easier on her and it gives her a pass.
第三种可能：我到现在还没看到任何迹象。
Version three, I see no fingers yet.
哦，都挺好。
Oh, both good.
当我告诉你这件事对我有多难时，我真不是在怪你伤害了我。
Other line is, you know, when I tell you how difficult this was for me, I really am not trying to tell you that you wronged me.
我只是想和你走近一点。
I'm actually seeking to connect with you.
可不知怎么，你就是没感受到。
And somehow that's not coming across.
我是真心想靠近你。
I'm coming to get closer to you.
但在你心里，靠近我，就意味着你要承认我。
In your mind, that getting closer includes you recognizing me.
但我来这儿根本不是为了发牢骚。
But basically, I'm not coming just to vent.
我来是因为我想修复点什么。
I'm coming because I'm trying to repair something.
你有注意到吗？
Have you noticed that?
谢谢。
Thank you.
三个亮了。
Three up.
但我还得给它们打分。
But I need to grade them too.
它们的质量参差不齐。
They're not all at the same quality level.
那个最让我心里不舒服，我觉得这可能恰恰说明它最到位。
That one sparked the most discomfort in me, which I think means that it's maybe the best one.
因为我把它倒过来了，你明白吗？
Because I turned it upside down, you see?
因为你觉得，我要是去告诉她我有多受伤、多震惊，就好像我在攻击她一样。
Because you say, if I go to tell her how hurt I was and how shocked I was, it's as if I'm coming to attack her.
但其实，我想让她理解我的痛苦，恰恰是想和她建立联系。
But in fact, if I want her to recognize my pain, I'm actually coming to seek a connection.
是的。
Yeah.
这真的让我很有共鸣。
And that feels very true to me.
对。
Yes.
没错。
Yeah.
那我该怎么跟她说呢？
So how do I tell her that?
然后你就说，我现在真的需要你别说话，我想让你好好听进去我在说什么。
And then you say, I really need you to not speak right now because I want you to actually take in what I'm saying.
我觉得你感觉我是冲着你来指责、攻击你的。
I think you experienced me as coming to attack you and blame you.
但其实我是想让你知道我内心发生了什么，好把我们之间断掉的那根线重新连起来。
But in fact, I am coming because I want you to know what was going on with me as a way to weave back the thread between you and I.
我根本不是来谈你的事的。
I am actually not coming to talk about you.
我是来谈我自己的。
I'm coming to talk about me.
如果她想插话，你就礼貌地请她先别打断，陪我把话说完。
And if she tries to talk, you just say just to me the courtesy and stay with me.
我还有更多想说的。
I have more.
然后你就说，十年过去了，我现在看事情的方式早就跟以前不一样了。
And then you say, I am ten years later and I don't see things in the same way that I used to.
我信了你的说法。
I bought into your story.
我被这段关系的美好迷住了，真的觉得一切都那么美好，也许确实曾经是这样。
I bought into the beauty of this relationship and I really thought things were beautiful and maybe they even were.
我不知道你当时怎么了，或者发生了什么，但我最想听你说的是，我所相信的那些，都是真实的。
I don't know what prompted you or what happened, but I think what I need to hear from you is that what I believed in was real.
尤其是我现在自己结婚了，我特别想知道，我并没有活在谎言里，我从小经历的那段爱情故事，是真的存在过的。
Especially as I get married myself, it's very important for me to know that I didn't live in a lie, that the love story in which I grew up actually existed.
我真的这么认为。
I actually do believe that.
太好了。
Good.
很好。
Good.
这部分我从来不怀疑。
That part I don't struggle with.
那如果她对此没什么抵触，反而更应该跟她谈谈了。
Then if she don't struggle with it, it may even be more of a reason why to bring it to her.
对。
Yeah.
这样她才能更清楚你真正想说的是什么。
Because it gives her a different understanding of what you're coming to ask.
一般来说，她可能会特别防御，因为她觉得只要有一件事做错了，整件事就全完了。
Now, she may be very defensive, generally speaking, because it feels to her that one wrong thing means that the whole thing is wrong.
这种情况下，通常我们会建议先说一堆正面的事。
In which case usually we say there is a strategy, which is that we start with a bunch of positive things.
但有时候这么做真挺别扭的，心里难免想：干嘛非得裹上糖衣？
Now, sometimes that feels very difficult because it's like, why do I have to rob this in sugar?
我就是想直截了当地说几句话，不行吗？
If all I wanna say is a few things, you know, straight out of my mouth?
因为我们说话，是为了让对方能听进去。
Because we talk in order for the other person to hear it.
没错。
Right.
想发泄一下的话，跟谁说都行。
To just get it out of our system, you can talk to anybody.
你知道她这个人吧，特别敏感，受不了批评，也不喜欢自己事情没做好。
So what you know about her is she may be sensitive to criticism and she doesn't like not to do things well.
她也不愿意觉得自己做的事伤害了别人。
And she doesn't like the idea that her actions may have been hurtful to others.
所以你可以明确告诉她，你根本不是故意要伤害我的。
And so I am clear, you can say, that hurting me was not the thing you intentionally meant to do.
这个我懂。
I know that.
不过呢，说话的时候最好牵着她的手，研究都说了，冲突的时候有身体接触，反而能搭起一座桥。
The whole point is that you hold her hand, by the way, while you're speaking, because there's plenty of research about how digging into conflict while actually having physical contact creates a bridge.
我甚至觉得这就像在传递催产素，让本来有矛盾的两个人，反而更亲近了。
I would almost call it a transmission of oxytocin that allow two people who are at odds to actually become closer.
还有一点，我知道你根本不是故意要伤害我。
The other thing is also to say, and I know that you really did not mean to hurt me.
正因如此，我才能坦白告诉你，我有多受伤。
And that's why I can come and tell you how hurt I was.
因为如果我觉得你是存心的，我就不会再信你了。
Because if I thought you had been intentional, I wouldn't trust you.
然后，你就牵着她的手。
And then you hold the hand.
你刚才说，我希望在走进婚礼的时候，你能牵着我的手。
You just said, I just want you to hold my hand as we go into this wedding.
我有些话想对你说，你也得听。如果她插嘴，你就轻轻抬根手指，柔声说：再等一会儿。
I need to say a few things to you and I need you to And if she speaks, you put your finger in front and you just very gently say, wait a little bit longer.
我来这儿，是想把心交给你。
I'm here to give to you.
我不是来责怪你的。
I'm not here to scold you.
我不是来责备你的。
I'm not here to berate you.
我不是来跟你争对错的。
I'm not here to score points with you.
这件事的目的，其实不在于她是否承认或意识到，而在于你能不能不再依赖她的承认，就能真正认可自己感受的正当性？
The goal of this whole thing is not necessarily for her to acknowledge and to recognize, is actually for you to not need her to acknowledge it to the extent that you do in order to experience the legitimacy of what you're feeling?
我愿意试试看。
I'm definitely open to trying that.
和你聊了这一圈之后，听到自己怎么说的，确实有帮助——可为什么非得是我呢？
And I think in in talking through it with you, it's helpful to hear back the way that I the way that I sound and, well, why should I be the one?
我其实一直都知道，但听你这么说，我才真正开始想：我可以选择放下，而这件事本身并不会因此改变。
And I've known that, but it's it's different to hear you say it and think about it as I can choose to let go of that and it doesn't change what happened.
也不会改变我的感受。
Nor how I feel.
也不会改变我的感受。
Nor how I feel.
就是关于这些问题的意义。
Meaning about these issues.
我不需要她看见、承认或认可，我都知道我的感受是真实的、有道理的。
It's I don't need her to see, to acknowledge it, to recognize it, for me to know that it's my experience, it's valid.
我可能得接受，她身上有很多美好的地方，但也有些地方就是卡住了。
And I may have to live with the fact that there's a lot of things that are wonderful with her and there's a few places that are really stuck.
我要是提这事儿，她基本不可能突然就懂了。
If I bring this up, I'm rarely gonna get she just can't.
是的。
Yeah.
我不想当摩西拍石头。
And I don't really wanna be Moses and the rock.
我不想像那样一遍遍敲打石头，指望能流出水来，可水根本流不出来。
And I'll bang and bang and hope that water will flow because the water won't flow.
对。
Yeah.
不是从那个角度。
Not from that place.
对。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
即使我不跟她争执、不跟她对抗，我也觉得特别压抑、不舒服。
Because it doesn't even if I'm not arguing with her or being confrontational, I feel really confined and uncomfortable.
就像穿了件特别别扭的衬衫，非得脱下来不可。
And, like, I like, it's an uncomfortable shirt I wanna take off.
你们跟她新伴侣相处得怎么样？
Do you all get along with her new partner?
她挺好的。
She's fine.
明白了。
Alright.
这已经说明一切了。
That says it all.
她挺好的。
She's fine.
我很高兴我妈找到了人。
And I'm really glad that my mom has found someone.
这让我生活轻松多了。
It's made my life a lot easier.
以前怎么了？
Because before?
以前啊，
Before,
她以前把太多精力都耗在过去，老回头纠缠，或者怨我放下了。
so much more of her energy was focused on the past and going back to that or resenting me moving on maybe.
感觉就像要扛着一堆东西似的。
And so it felt like a lot more to to hold off almost.
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那我问你一下。
So let me ask you.
你家周围有没有一个亲密朋友的小圈子？
Is there a community around your family of close friends?
有的。
Yes.
在这群亲密朋友里，有没有谁可以当个传话的人？
And is there one of these close friends who you could identify as a liaison?
传什么话？
For what?
传些消息。
For transmitting some messages.
也许有吧。
Maybe.
确实有这么个人，但我也不确定她会不会觉得这样合适。
I mean, there definitely is someone, but I don't know how that would feel to her.
你根本不会让她去当传话的人。
You would never send her as a messenger.
明白了。
Okay.
总有一天，你会有机会和她聊聊，问问她是怎么经历整个转变的。
You would simply, one day, have the opportunity to talk and to ask how did she experience this whole transition.
然后你也可以分享一下你自己经历这个转变的感受。
And then you will share some of how you've experienced the whole transition.
再聊聊你内心深处的渴望——希望自己的转变能被更多人看见和认可。
And then you will express some of your own longings about the wish that some of your own transition had been more acknowledged.
你什么都不用说，就只是安静地陪着她。
And you'll just deposit seats.
你什么都不用讲。
You don't say anything.
是的。
Yeah.
我确实跟他们聊过这些。
Well, I have had those conversations.
嗯，明白了。
Okay.
嗯，好。
Okay.
你比我更早一步。
You're ahead of I
我有那些人，我也跟他们聊过这些。
have those people and I have had those conversations.
而且……
And
那信息有传下去吗？
And did the information flow?
没有。
No.
因为我相信他们也知道，那种事是不会被接受的。
Because I believe that they also know that that wouldn't be taken.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，好吧。
Well Okay.
所以你不是一个人在面对。
So you're not alone.
这在一定程度上能帮你，甚至更有帮助，因为这样一来，你就不纠结于‘怎么才能进去’，而是更关注‘怎么克制住想敲门的冲动’——毕竟，那里根本不会给你想要的东西。
That that helps you some level that helps you even more because then you know that it's less about how do I get in there, and it's more about how do I resist the urge to knock at the door where this is not what I'm gonna receive.
对。
Yeah.
事实上，这事儿跟她有关。
And in fact, this is about her.
我之所以这么看，是因为我跟他们不少朋友聊过，发现大家基本都有共识：有些人确实很棒，但有那么几个地方，最好别去打扰他们。
And I see it because I talked to a number of our of their friends and I see that there's a bit of a consensus that some people are wonderful and there's a few areas where it's better not to reach out to them.
有时候人们会说，如果我做不到这一点，那我干脆就别谈恋爱了。
And then sometimes people say, well, if I can't do that, then I shouldn't have a relationship at all.
但我没这么觉得。
But I don't hear that.
我觉得你可能在某些阶段确实有过这种想法。
I think you may have had that at some phases.
是的。
Yeah.
但我现在不这么想。
But I don't feel that Yeah.
所以你就明白，她做不到。
So then you know she can't.
她不会的，现在还不会，暂时还不行。
She won't, not yet, not now.
当她有反应的时候，我真的很难……
And then when she reacts, it was very hard for me to.
答案就在这儿。
Here's the answer.
你做好心理准备。
Brace yourself.
我知道这一点，我也知道你一直觉得，自己付出的没得到应有的认可。
I know that, and I also know that you have often felt that there was not enough recognition for that toward you.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道你每次都说这些，是因为你总觉得，既然离开的人是你，你就没资格抱怨。
I know that you're telling it to me each time because there is this belief that since you're the one who left, you have nothing to complain about.
你做了自己想做的事。
You did what you wanted.
或者你有了外遇，可你说起这些的时候，就像个没人真正看见你痛苦的人。
Or you had the affair, and you're saying it like someone who feels that nobody actually ever saw their pain.
是的。
Yeah.
因为他们只看到了她的行为。
Because all they saw was their action.
你听着觉得不舒服吗？还是没事？
You cringing or it's okay?
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
没事的。
It's okay.
真的没事。
It is.
我觉得你说得对。
I think you're right.
我觉得她就是这么想的。
I think that is how she feels.
对。
Yep.
没错。
Yeah.
任何处在那种位置的人这么说，都是合理的推测。
Anyone who would be in that position and say this, it's a fair guess.
是的。
Yeah.
光靠猜可没什么科学性。
It's not very scientific to to guess that.
但大多数人往往都意识不到这一点。
But it is the thing that most of the time people will not recognize.
当然，这解释不了她为什么听不见你说话。
Of course, that doesn't explain why she can't hear you.
我们知道事情没这么简单，但这类回应会让她非常意外。
We know there is more to the story, but these kind of responses will be very surprising to her.
是的
Yeah.
有时候，当人们终于感觉到有人真正理解了自己的故事时，他们会意外地开始学会理解别人的故事。
And sometimes when people actually finally feel that someone sees their story, it's remarkable how they've accidentally able to see someone else's.
对
Yeah.
因为别人都在拉扯：‘我也是’、‘我先来’、‘为什么不是我’、‘凭什么是你’？
Because instead of pulling on the rope, me too, me first, why not me, why you?
但如果你真的能走到另一头，
But if actually you come all the way to the other side.
是的
Yeah.
你这么说挺有意思，因为这个概念我其实挺熟悉的，而且它正是我一直在想的——
It's funny that you say this because it's a concept I'm I'm familiar with and it's one that
你管这个叫什么？
How do you name it?
我和我未婚夫管这叫‘中国指套’。
My fiance and I call it the Chinese finger trap.
你给我讲讲这是啥。
Explain it to me.
你听说过这玩意儿吗？
And do you do you know about those?
没听过。
No.
我懂。
I do.
这玩意儿是我小时候挺常见的玩具，就是个编织的小管子。
So it was this toy that we had that people had when I was a kid and it was this like woven tube.
你把两个手指伸进去，一开始松松的，可你一使劲往外拉，手指就抽不出来了。
And you put two fingers in it and when you and it was loose when you put your fingers and when you pull tight, you can't get your fingers out.
要想把手指拿出来，反而得放松，一放松它就自己松开了。
And in order to get your fingers out, you have to relax and then they can come out.
我们经常用这个来比喻那种明明知道再使劲也没用，却还是忍不住硬撑的情况。
And we use that all the time as shorthand for when we know that we're in one of those situations where we're just pulling for the sake or for a good reason.
不管怎么说，死撑也没用。
Either way, it's not working.
放手并不意味着放弃你的立场或感受。
And letting go isn't giving up your point of view or your feelings.
其实，放手就是解放自己。
Actually, letting go is freeing yourself.
就是把手指抽出来。
It's getting the finger out.
对。
Yeah.
真正能脱身的办法，不是越拽越紧，而是得松一松，放松一点，手指才能抽出来。
It's the idea that in order to actually get out, I can't pull more, but I have to surrender some, loosen my finger in order to be able to pull it out.
就是别死死攥着自己的需求、执念，你说是吧？
And that not holding tight to my need, my yearning, to my, what would you say?
我的什么？
To my what?
我的愤怒，我的悲伤？
My anger, my sadness?
我的那个青春期的自己。
To my teenage self.
对头。
Good.
行了。
Okay.
本节目由Aloha赞助。
Support for Where Should We Begin?
赞助来自Aloha。
Comes from Aloha.
很多人都想增加蛋白质摄入，但不是所有的蛋白质都一样。
So many of us are looking to boost our protein intake, but not all protein is made equal.
如果你很在意吃进身体的东西，想要找来源靠谱的有机蛋白，这儿有个小建议。
For those of you who are mindful about what you put in your body and want thoughtfully sourced organic protein, here's a tip.
Aloha蛋白棒。
Aloha protein bars.
Aloha说这可不是那种凑合吃的蛋白棒，味道真的挺棒的。
This isn't a compromise bar according to Aloha, and it actually tastes really good.
想象一下，浓郁的有机花生酱裹着黑巧克力，口感柔软、醇厚、特别满足，可不是那种又干又硬、吃起来像受罚的蛋白棒。
Think creamy, organic peanut butter dipped in dark chocolate and a soft, rich, satisfying texture, not the clumpy, stodgy protein bars that feel like a punishment.
每根棒子含14克蛋白，最多10克纤维，糖不超过5克，零乱七八糟的添加剂。
Each bar contains 14 grams of protein, up to 10 grams of fiber, five grams or fewer of sugar and zero sketchy ingredients.
原料全是土地里长出来的植物成分，设计出来就是为了让你真真正正吃饱。
Plant based ingredients grown in the ground and built to actually keep you satisfied.
去你家附近的超市，或者上aloha.com找Aloha蛋白棒，aloha.com。
Look for Aloha protein bars at your local grocery store or at aloha.com, aloha.com.
Aloha，吃出自然好味道。
Aloha, taste that grows.
从伊朗到委内瑞拉再到中国，特朗普的外交政策到底在打什么算盘？
From Iran to Venezuela to China, what is driving president Trump's foreign policy?
如果伊朗政权发生变动，俄罗斯和中国都会是大输家，这正是我觉得我们必须把这场博弈进行到底的原因。
Both Russia and China are big losers if there's a transition in the nature of the of the Iranian government, which, again, is why I think we have to see this campaign through.
我是杰克·沙利文。
I'm Jake Sullivan.
我是约翰·费纳。
And I'm John Feiner.
我们是《长远博弈》这档每周国家安全播客的主持人。
And we're the hosts of The Long Game, a weekly national security podcast.
这期节目，我们请来了特朗普前国家安全顾问哈雷·麦克马斯特和副国家安全顾问马特·波廷格。
This week, Trump's former national security adviser, HR McMaster, and deputy national security adviser, Matt Pottinger, join us.
本期节目已经上线了。
The episode's out now.
在你常用的播客平台搜索并关注《长远博弈》。
Search for and follow the long game wherever you get your podcasts.
这期《财富与闲聊》，我要来拆解一个大家都在谈、却没人真懂的机构——美联储。
This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm breaking down the institution everyone's talking about right now, but nobody actually understands, the Federal Reserve.
特朗普和美联储主席鲍威尔闹得这么凶，你肯定刷到一堆新闻，心里纳闷：这跟我钱包有啥关系？
With all the drama happening between Trump and Fed chair Jerome Powell, you're probably seeing headlines and wondering what any of this has to do with your money.
剧透一下：关系可大了。
Spoiler alert, it's everything.
我会告诉你美联储到底是啥、为啥存在，以及它怎么单凭一己之力，掌控着你的房贷、信用卡、学生贷款的利率。
I'll explain what the Fed actually is, why it exists, and how this one institution controls the interest rates on your mortgage, credit cards, student loans, and more.
我们来聊聊，加息或降息根本不是啥枯燥的政策术语。
We're diving into why raising or cutting rates isn't just boring policy talk.
它直接决定你是买得起房，还是眼睁睁看着物价飞涨。
It's the difference between affording a house or watching prices spiral out of control.
另外，我还会拆解现在为啥有人想炒掉美联储理事，为什么共和党和民主党都急了——这事儿不是作秀，真可能让你的钱包大出血。
Plus, I'm breaking down the current controversy over firing Fed board members and why both Republicans and Democrats are freaking out about it because this fight isn't just political theater, it could mean real chaos for your wallet.
无论你在哪儿听播客，都别忘了收听，或者去YouTube搜‘youarerichbff’看视频。
Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on youtube.com slash you are rich bff.
你会怎么跟她说？
What would you tell her?
如果你改变主意，她会不会觉得被抛弃了？
Would she feel abandoned if you change course?
不会。
No.
我觉得不会。
I don't think so.
我觉得我会说，有些事你现在根本想不到，但它们终会改变，这其实不是坏事，虽然现在感觉像是世界上最糟的事。
I think I would say that there are things that you can't comprehend that will change, and that's not a bad thing even though it feels like the worst thing in the world right now.
说得具体点。
Be more specific.
我从来没想过，有一天我会真的感到开心，觉得我家不再是四口之家也没关系。
I never could have imagined that I would be happy and okay that my family is no longer a family of four.
从那以后，发生了太多好事，也让我更清楚地看到了自己的韧性和那些曾经的盲点。
And so many good things have happened out of that, and it has taught me so much about my own resilience and about my own pitfalls.
这都是人生必经的过程。
And it's all just part of the course.
有高峰就一定有低谷，没法只选其一。
You can't have the up without the down.
那段成年后的成长里，有哪些特别重要的收获？
What are some of the highlights of that post adolescence learning?
我一开始特别生我妈的气，之后就特别害怕发脾气。
I think I was so angry with my mom right away that after that, I felt really afraid of anger.
花了好长时间我才重新找到愤怒，明白它其实很有用，压着不处理根本没用。
And it took me a while to find it and realize the utility of it and that ignoring it doesn't doesn't make it go away.
我真的很感激父母给我营造的那个家。
I do feel really to be the product of the home my parents created for us.
虽然那个家已经不复从前的样子，但父母给我的根基还在。
And even though that home doesn't exist in the same way, I still have the foundation that they gave me.
也许正因如此，我才意识到，那个根基其实没消失——虽然当时我觉得它突然塌了，自己像在空中漂着。
So maybe that that I was able to learn that the foundation didn't go away in a way that I thought it had, that it felt like it had dropped out and that I was floating.
但其实并没有消失，它一直都在。
But it it hadn't, and it's still there.
你怎么看这句话：离婚是婚姻的结束，却是家庭的转变？
What do you think of the sentence, divorce is the end of a marriage and the transformation of a family?
家庭并没有就此终结。
It's not the end of the family.
是啊。
Yeah.
他们都会来参加你的婚礼。
They all come to your wedding.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Yeah.
六个都来。
Six of them.
四个是他们，两个是你。
And four of them and two of you.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Mhmm.
这个说法我实在有点接受不了。
That's hard for me to get on board with.
我总觉得跟这个说法脱不了干系。
I feel somehow attached to that narrative.
就是你们四个人组成的那个家。
Of the four of you.
觉得那个家结束了，对吧。
Of that family having ended Mhmm.
而不是说它只是转变了。
As opposed to it having transformed.
我和他们每个人、每种组合都有来往，但就是感觉我们四个人凑在一起，除了尴尬也没别的了——不过我们还是挺客气地这么相处。
I have relationships with each of them and these each of these configurations, but it doesn't feel like the four of us have anything other than uncomfortable other than something that's uncomfortable, and and we do that, you know, cordially.
所以你们四个人尽量少聚是吗？
So you try not to be too much, the four of you?
几乎从不，我们四个从来不聚。
Or hardly ever, the four of us.
那你们六个人呢？会聚吗？
But the the six of you, yes?
不会。
No.
完全不会。
No.
我爸妈根本不见面。
My parents don't really see each other.
你有没有想过，至少有一次，让他们都围在你身边聚一聚？
And do you have a need to have them one time be able to gather around you?
我曾经一度觉得，那样做可能会带来疗愈。
I did at a point think that that would feel healing.
对。
Mhmm.
但其实并没有。
And it wasn't.
但他们俩都会陪我走过红毯。
But they're both walking me down the aisle.
他们都会聚在一起，我很高兴他们都能到场。
They will all be together, and I'm really glad that they will all be there.
所以他们是为你团结起来了。
So they are rallying for you.
是的。
Yeah.
他们能待在同一个房间里。
They can be in the same room.
他们只是选择不这么做。
They just choose not to be.
对。
Right.
但是
But
他们没必要待在同一个房间里。
they don't have to be in the same room.
关键是让你感受到，他们都在围绕着你。
The goal is for them for you to feel that they can wrap around you.
是的。
Yeah.
我不知道那一刻会是什么感觉，但他们都会站在华盖下，和我们在一起。
I don't know how it will feel in the moment, but they'll be standing under the hippah with us.
所以咱们也只能走着瞧了，看看会不会有那种感觉。
So we'll find out, I guess, if it will feel that way.
你打算提前跟她们聊聊吗？
Do you plan to speak with them before?
聊这个？
About this?
对。
Yes.
你想让她们在那天给你什么样的感觉呢？不是作为夫妻，而是作为妈妈们该有的那种感觉？
About what would feel what, yeah, what would feel good on that particular day that you want from them as your mothers, not as the couple?
是啊。
Yeah.
夫妻俩平时很少待在同一个房间里。
The couple doesn't come into the same room too often.
但妈妈们各自的角色一直都在。
But the mothers have roles that they continue to play.
对。
Yeah.
去扮演这个角色
To inhabit.
当人们清楚地区分妻子、父母、母亲、新伴侣的时候，这一点就特别明显了
And it's very clear, when people know that it is to distinguish between wives, parents, mothers, new partners.
角色决定了行为方式
The roles dictate the behavior.
每个角色都伴随着明确的期待
The role is filled with a clear set of expectations.
对
Mhmm.
我觉得爸妈分开后，我就再也感受不到妈妈的母爱了
I think that I stopped feeling that maternal support from my mom when they split up.
我把这归咎于她没有真正理解我的感受，没在情感上照顾我——这可能公平也可能不公平
And I've tied that fairly or unfairly to feeling as if she wasn't taking care of me emotionally by recognizing my experience.
是的
Yeah.
我能问你个问题吗？
Can I ask you something?
当然可以。
Of course.
这种问题，十年前我根本不会问你。
And it's a question I would not have asked you ten years ago.
明白吗？
Okay?
我觉得这问题特别有成长性。
I think it's a question that is very developmental.
你觉得你妈妈有没有觉得，你是在攻击她作为女人，然后又怨恨她作为母亲？
Do you think that your mom experienced you as attacking her as a woman and then resenting her as a mother?
有。
Yes.
完全没错。
Absolutely.
这两者之间能分开来看吗？
Is there space there to separate between these two?
因为有些人婚姻里做得不好，但并不意味着他们就成了坏父母。
Because sometimes people are doing things in their marriage, but that doesn't mean they become bad parents.
是的。
Yeah.
感觉这两者完全连在一起。
It's it's felt so connected.
我觉得他们的婚姻也是这部分的一部分。
And I guess I felt that their marriage was part of of that.
婚姻破裂的时候，其实也是他们作为母亲所建立的安全感崩塌了。
You know, in in the marriage ending, it was ending the safe space that they created as mothers.
所以十年前我根本不会问你这个问题。
Which is why I wouldn't ask you this question ten year ago.
对。
Yeah.
但我明白。
But I know.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
这种感觉我对我其他妈妈并没有。
It's not something I feel for my other mother.
对。
Right.
你能不能说，有时候我真希望你能让我感受到一点母性的温暖。
Is there room for you to say, I wish on occasion I would feel the motherly quality from you.
我真的挺怀念那种感觉的。
Again, I miss it.
是的。
Yeah.
我不觉得这样会有啥好处。
I don't know that that would be beneficial.
我觉得她会理解成……
I imagine that she would interpret that as
如果你说你想要更多，她立马会觉得你在抱怨她做得不够。
If you say I want more of something, she will instantly think that you're telling her that she hasn't done enough of that thing.
对。
Yes.
这其实就是防御心理的典型表现。
That's what defensiveness usually does.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以你得说：‘我特别喜欢你表现出母性的一面，怎么都嫌不够。’
So then one has to say, I love when you are motherly and I can't get enough of it.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，有一种表达方式，让人一听就能察觉到，每个愿望背后其实都藏着一层隐晦的批评。
I mean, there is a syntax that accompanies how can people who hear instantly veiled criticism that is behind every wish.
对。
Yeah.
或者说，他们总觉得，每个愿望背后都暗含着批评。
Or reverse, behind every wish, they think there is a veiled criticism.
没错。
Mhmm.
但这其实是个成长过程。
But this is really developmental.
咱们得说清楚一点。
Let's be very clear.
我可不建议你19岁的时候就这么做，因为你那时候确实需要这种肯定。
I would not suggest that when you're 19 because you do need that.
婚姻就是家庭。
The marriage is the family.
在这个阶段
At this stage
你说得对。
You're right.
不是这样的。
It's not.
没错。
Right.
我觉得这就是为什么我说，我想放下那个属于青少年时期的自己。
And I think that's why I said that I want that it feels like letting go of that teenage part of me.
你知道吗，我脑子里有个画面。
You know, I have an image.
我觉得你们六个应该出现在一场婚礼上，旁边是个少女。
I think that you should have the six of you at a wedding and a teenage girl.
你可以用任何方式来表现她。
And you can represent her in any way you want.
手腕上戴条手链，照片也放在霍帕的某个地方，但她其实也该属于那里。
A bracelet on your hand, a picture of her somewhere on the hoopa, but she should really she belongs there too.
但她必须被深深认可，因为她真的经历了很多。
But somewhere she needs to be profoundly acknowledged because she really confronted a lot.
她现在坐在这里说，我学到了很多，也抓住了不少机会，她一直挺成熟的，但这一切并不容易。
She sits there today and says, I learned a lot and there were many opportunities and she's been kind of very mature about it, but it took a lot.
是的。
Yeah.
你要给自己这份认可。
And you will give yourself that recognition.
也就是说，你就是那个真正看懂她付出了多少的第三个‘母亲’。
Meaning, you are the third mother of that teenage girl who really sees what it took.
对。
Yeah.
如果你今天能对她说一句话，你会说什么？
If you said something to her today, what would it be?
我想我会说，生气没关系，你生气、受伤都是很正常的，无论她帮不帮你，你都能找到走出这段经历的方式，她并不掌握着让你释怀的钥匙。
I think I'd say that it's okay to be angry and that it makes sense that you're angry and hurt and you'll find a way through that with or without her help, that she doesn't hold the key to finding closure to that chapter of my life.
还有别的吗？
Is there more?
我想到的是，你再怎么大喊大叫，事情也不会因此改变。
What's coming to mind is, like, you can yell and scream as much as you want, and it's not gonna change anything.
但我替咱们记着呢。
But I'll hold it for us.
对。
Yeah.
但这不代表它没用。
But that doesn't mean that it's not useful.
只是说明你可能想改变的人，根本就选错了。
It just means that maybe you're trying to change the wrong person.
你和她在一起的时候，会做些温馨的事吗？还是每次见到她，都非得把那些大问题拎出来谈？
Do you do nice things with her, or does it feel to every time you see her that you have to bring up the big issues?
我们也不是每次见面都提，但一起做事的时候就是感觉不对劲。
We don't bring it up every time, but things don't feel nice when we do them together.
确实不对劲。
They don't.
是因为你们之间有隔阂，还是因为你心里憋着话没说？
Because there is tension between the two of you or because inside you're trying to hold it in?
因为我心里想的，跟外面表现的不一样。
Because inside, I'm conflicted with the outside.
对。
Yeah.
挑一件你常说的、你喜欢和她一起做的事吧。
Choose something that you say, this I like to do with her.
你们俩一起做过哪些让你觉得开心的事？或者你遇到事会找她帮忙的？
What's one of those things that you enjoy together or that you turn to her for?
她特别擅长给人建议。
She's very good at giving advice.
对
Mhmm.
这么多年来，她一直是个特别不评判人、特别能听我说话的人。
And over the years has been an incredibly nonjudgmental advice giver and confidant.
我总觉得可以随时找她，我知道她不会对我任何事指手画脚，总会心平气和地帮我出主意。
And I felt I could call her and I knew she wouldn't judge whatever I had whatever was going on and would have an open mind about what to do.
那你现在还找她吗？
And have you continued to go to her?
不找了。
No.
她参与婚礼筹备吗？
Is she involved in the wedding planning?
她没那么投入。
She is not in equal proportion.
对
Mhmm.
但她确实参与了。
But she is involved.
是的。
Yeah.
我在想，你能不能向她提一些具体的要求，而且你确定她能办到？
And I'm thinking, is there something concrete that you can ask from her and that you know she can deliver?
对。
Mhmm.
她特别以自己的家为傲，也特别喜欢招待客人。
She takes a lot of pride in her home Mhmm.
所以她会负责办一场婚礼后的聚会。
And in hosting people, and so she's going to host a post wedding gathering.
对。
Mhmm.
我知道她一定会把这事办得特别棒。
And I know that she will do an amazing job at that.
对。
Mhmm.
你跟她说过了吗？
Have you told her?
还没。
No.
你或许可以考虑一下。
You may wanna consider.
这主意不错。
It's a good idea.
而且你这么说，不是为了讨好她、迁就她。
And again, you're not saying that because you wanna be nice to her and placate her or accommodate.
你这么说，是因为当你重新连接上这些部分时，你会感到更自在。
You're saying it because when you reconnect with those aspects, it frees you.
是的。
Yeah.
是的
Yeah.
我很欣赏这个区别。
I really appreciate that distinction.
因为有时候人们会觉得，哎呀，我得去讨好人家，你知道的。
Because sometimes it's seen as, you know, and I have to go and be nice, you know.
对。
Right.
我就是有这种感觉。
And that's how it's felt.
我要么就是讨好，要么就是说实话。
I'm either being nice or I'm being honest.
对。
Right.
没错。
Right.
而在这里，你既友善又真诚。
And here, you're being nice and honest.
对不真实的东西，你没法这么说。
You can't say it on things that are not authentic.
是的。
Yeah.
但话说回来，我该怎么做到既友善又真诚呢？
But yes, how can I be nice and honest?
对。
Yeah.
当这个差距越来越小，我就越自由。
When that gap gets smaller, I get more free.
嗯。
Yeah.
我感觉更真实了，也不再那么被困住，非得指望她给出什么——她给得越少，我就越难受。
I feel more differentiated and I'm less trapped into wanting her to deliver something which the less she delivers and the worse I feel.
是的
Yeah.
我特别想试试这些方法，感觉有了新的方向，心里也更有盼头了。
I'm excited to try a few of those things out, and I feel hopeful in having a different just something different to try.
太好了。
Wonderful.
非常感谢你抽出时间。
Thank you so much for your time.
谢谢你。
Thank you.
这是一次埃丝特来电，一次远程录制的单次干预电话，地点在世界上的两个不同地方。
This was an Esther Calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.
如果你有什么问题想和埃丝特探讨，而且能在四五十分钟的电话里说清楚，就给她发个语音留言，她可能会直接打给你。
If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a forty or fifty minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you.
把你的问题发到 producer@estherperel.com。
Send your question to producer@estherperel.com.
《从哪里开始》由Magnificent Noise制作。
Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise.
我们是Vox Media播客网络的一员，与《纽约杂志》和《The Cut》合作推出。
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.
制作团队包括Eric Nousum、Destry Sibley、Sabrina Farhi和Kristen Muller，原创音乐及额外制作由Paul Schneider负责。
Our production staff includes Eric Nousum, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, and Kristen Muller, original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.
《从哪里开始》的执行制片人是Esther Perel和Jesse Baker。
And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.
我们还要特别感谢Courtney Hamilton、Mary Alice Miller和Jack Saul。
We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
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