压力与睡眠的科学：实现最佳表现，与比尔·冯·希佩尔博士一起探讨

但我们这样做时发现的是，HRVCV，也就是你HRV在较长时间内的变异性。

But what we find when we do that is that HRVCV, which is the variability in your HRV over a longer period of time.

记住，HRV只是你心跳间隔时间的瞬时变化。

Remember, HRV is just your moment to moment variability in in your distance between your herpes.

所以HRVCV其实就是变异系数。

So HRVCV is just literally the coefficient of variation.

我们关注的是HRV从一天到另一天的变化程度。

So we're looking at basically how much does HRV change day to day.

是的。

Yes.

然后我们测量这种变化。

And then we're measuring that variation.

没错。

That's right.

没错。

That's right.

在更长的时间段内

Over a longer period

在更长的时间段内。

of a longer period of time.

一周、一个月、一年，随便你选。

Week, a month, a year, whatever you want.

当我们这样做时，我们发现你想要的是低变异性。

And when we do that, we find that what you want is low variability.

对。

Right.

这与我们对急性HRV的理解正好相反。

So this is opposite of just kind of how we think about acute HRV.

没错。

Exactly.

你知道，当我们看HRVCV时，高HRV更好。

You know, high HRV is better when we're looking at HRVCV.

较低的变异系数意味着你更能功能性地适应。

A lower CV means that you're adapting more functionally.

较高的变异系数实际上意味着你适应得不够功能性。

A higher CV actually means you're not adapting as functionally.

没错。

Exactly.

所以，假设你 somehow 说服我去和你一起跑步——你根本做不到，别白费劲了。

So if imagine you somehow talked me into going running with you, which you can't do, so don't even try.

但假设你真的做到了。

But imagine you did.

在我们一起完成一次惨不忍睹的跑步后，你对任何生理指标的影响几乎为零。

At the end of some heinous run that we did together, you would have almost no impact on any of your physiological metrics.

而明天，我会看起来像被马踢了一脸。

And tomorrow I would look like I got kicked in the face by a horse.

这就是因为我的HRVCV远高于你。

And so that's because my HRVCV is way higher than yours.

所以你能够应对任何你面临的压力，而我却不行。

So you're ready to take on any strain that you face, and I'm just not.

这意味着顶尖运动员的HRVCV非常低。

And so what that means is that an elite athlete has a really low HRVCV.

无论明天他们做什么，他们的身体都会说：没问题，我能应付。

No matter what they do tomorrow, their body can say, Fine, I can deal with that.

而有些人——

And somebody-

准备好了随时出发。

going to It's going to be ready to go.

是的。

Yeah.

像我这样61岁的普通人却做不到，面对高强度训练他们会反应得很差。

And a 61 year old schmuck like myself does not, They're going to respond very poorly to really hard.

我可以应付轻松的活动，但无法承受高强度的训练。因此，我们研究了这些外科医生的HRVCV，结果大致如此。

I can handle light things, but I can't handle hard And so we can look at the HRVCV of these surgeons, which we did basically what they look like.

所以他们的平均年龄大概是42岁或44岁，是的。

So their average age is like 42 or forty forty Yeah.

他们看起来像60岁。

They look like they're 60.

由于每周两个晚上长期如此，他们在心血管年龄上实际上比真实年龄老了二十岁。

They've literally aged cardiovascularly two decades more than they really are by virtue of this decade or more of two nights a week.

这太严重了。

That's huge.

现在，请记住，我们还没有发表这些数据。

Now, remember, we haven't published these data yet.

所以在同行评审这个非常重要的过程中，可能会有人发现其中的问题。

So it's possible that in peer review, which is a super important process, somebody will find fault with it.

那么我会说，哦，原来我们错了。

And then I would say, Oh, it turns out we're wrong.

所以在这些数据正式发表在学术文献之前，你不能把它当作确凿的依据。

And so you cannot take that to the bank yet until it's published in the literature.

但今天我们将会讨论很多新内容，至少我希望如此。

But we're going to talk about a lot of new stuff today, at least I hope so.

对。

Yes.

因此，在这些研究尚未发表之前，请持保留态度看待，但可以把它们视为一个强有力的假设。

And so when they're not yet published, please take them with a grain of salt, but take them as a strong hypothesis.

是的。

Yep.

我们之前讨论的前三篇论文都已通过同行评审并发表。

The first three papers we've talked about have gone through peer review and have been published.

已发表。

Published.

所以这是我们正在讨论的第四篇论文，我们目前正处于撰写过程中，但已经完成了分析和审阅。

So this is the fourth paper that we're talking about that we're in the process of kind of writing up, but we have analyzed, and we've looked it over.

我们对它很有信心，所以静待结果吧。

We feel really good about it, so we'll see what happens.

我们仍然可能是错的，但情况看起来非常有希望。

We could still be wrong, but it looks very promising.

我认为，我们在WHOOP能够做到的一件非常令人兴奋的事情是，衡量某些行为的成本。

I think one of the really exciting things that we're able to do here at WHOOP is measure the cost of certain behaviors.

了解轮班工作在社会中是一项非常重要的职能，但它确实为从事这一职业的人们带来了许多健康问题。

And understanding shift work is a super important function in society, but it does create a lot of health problems for folks in this profession.

因此，如果我们能通过这些发现帮助改善这些人的工作条件，让它们更安全、更好，那该多好？

So if we can I think these kind of these learnings can help us make conditions safer and better for these folks?

没错。

Right.

我的意思是，冷文化或许能帮你减轻因必须工作而产生的倦怠感，但你的身体在必须通宵工作时，还是会做出相应的反应。

I mean, so the downside is, like, cold culture can help you not be burned out as much from what you have to do, but your body is going to do what it does when it has to work all night.

是的。

Yeah.

我们还有另一个数据集，正在研究同一个问题：我们观察了使用Wu平台的轮班工作者，他们中有一半的夜晚在白天睡觉，另一半的夜晚在夜间睡觉。

And so we've got another data set where we've been examining the same question where we looked at people on the Wu platform who are shift workers who do so much shift work that essentially 50% of their nights they sleep during the day and 50% of their nights they sleep at night.

这些人的白天和夜晚在理论上应该没有差别，因为他们各自占了一半时间。

So these are people who in principle, day should be no worse than night because they do it half the time.

但如果我们是昼行性物种——而我们确实是——如果我们的身体本不该在有光的时候睡觉，那么仍然应该存在某种代价。

But if we're diurnal species, which we are, and if we're not meant to go to sleep when the light is up, you know, etc, there still should be a cost.

果然，在这些人身上，我们不是在比较不同的人，而是所有数据都来自同一批人。

And sure enough, in these folks, now we're not looking at different people, we're all packed within the same people.

我们发现，当他们在白天睡觉时，慢波睡眠的持续时间和出现概率不会像夜间睡眠那样出现典型的上升和下降。

We find that on nights where they sleep during the day, we don't get the characteristic rise and fall in duration and probability of slow wave sleep that we get when they sleep at night.

是的。

Yeah.

所以一次正常的夜间睡眠应该是：在深夜初期，慢波睡眠达到一个高峰，然后逐渐减弱。

And so what a proper night sleep looks like is early in the night, you get this big peak in slow wave sleep and then it slowly dissipates.

你现在已经很少能获得这种状态了。

You don't do it very much anymore.

这些一半时间工作、一半时间白天睡觉的人，当他们在白天睡觉时，慢波睡眠在初期几乎没有任何明显的高峰。

These folks who spend half their nights working and therefore sleeping half their days, when they sleep during the day, they barely get any peak at all in the early part of the night in slow wave.

当然，我不知道这是否就是医生们的问题所在，但很可能是这种夜间早期慢波睡眠的丧失会在心血管系统中逐渐积累。

Now, I have no idea, of course, if that's what's the problem in the doctors, but it seems highly likely that that loss of early night slow wave is just something that accumulates in your cardiovascular system.

所有的修复都是在那个时候发生的。

That's when all the repair is happening.

是的，我认为睡眠结构的变化非常有趣。

Yeah, I think changes in architecture are really interesting.

我们在其他数据中也看到了类似现象，或许可以转向另一组数据，看看那些经常锻炼、体能较好的人，他们的睡眠结构与体能较差的人有何根本不同。

And we see this in other data as well and can maybe shift to that data set where we look at folks who exercise and kind of are in the higher fit bucket have a fundamentally different sleep architecture than people who are in the lower fit bucket.

所以我们可以顺势转入，探讨一下压力的影响。

So maybe we can segue and we'll kind of get into kind of strain effects.

我认为，当今社会的一个可喜之处是，人们越来越意识到运动对我们的大脑健康、荷尔蒙健康等各个方面都至关重要。

What I love, I think, in society right now is I think there is this acknowledgement that exercise actually really matters for our brain health, for our hormone health, everything.

事实证明，运动对我们的睡眠质量有着显著影响。

It turns out that we actually see exercise really matters for our ability to get a quality night's sleep.

没错。

That's right.

所以也许我们可以谈谈我们如何定义低体能和高体能，以及我们是如何做出这些分类的，然后来看数据。

So maybe talk a little bit about how we think about low fit, high fit, how we come to those kind of delineations and then the data.

当然。

Sure.

我们一直以来都是用一种基本方式来区分低体能和高体能，但后来又将它们进一步细分为两种类型。

So we've been looking at low fit, high fit in one basic way, but then looking, splitting them into two types.

基本的方式是：你多久能达到一次你的体能目标？

So the basic way is how often do you meet your strain targets?

这很容易做到。

You know, easy to do.

你早上起床后，看看当天的目标是什么，然后到晚上睡觉前，你的表现如何？

You just get up in the morning, you see what it's asking of you, and then what do you look like by the time you go to bed?

是的。

Yeah.

对于正在收听的朋友们，我们有体能教练，每天都会为你设定一个体能目标。

So, folks, we have strain coach for people who are listening and we're going give you a strain target every day.

没错。

Exactly.

因此，我们将样本分为三类：几乎从不达到压力目标的人、大约一半时间达到目标的人，以及基本总是达到目标的人。

And so we divided the sample into people who almost never meet their strain targets, people who meet them, you know, about half the time and people who basically always meet them.

所以你可以把样本按活动水平分为下三分之一，实际上确实是三分之一。

So you can think of the sort of lower third and actually it's about thirds.

样本中活动水平最低的三分之一、中间三分之一，以及最高的三分之一。

Lower third of the sample as far as activity levels, middle third and then the top third of the sample.

当你这样划分后，就可以观察长期影响：总是达成压力目标与几乎从不达成目标，分别意味着什么。

And when you do that, you can then look at the long term effects of what does it mean to be somebody who's always meeting strain versus almost never meeting it.

然后，我们分析这个相同问题的第二种方式是：从个体内部的角度来看。

Then the second way that we're going to look at this exact same question is look at it within person.

由于我们的样本量很大，我们可以找出那些在刚获得设备后的至少六十天里，尽管一直佩戴设备，却几乎从不达成压力目标的人。

And so because our samples are so big, we could look for people who go for at least sixty days, typically when they first get the device, hardly ever meeting strain targets despite wearing it.

而在那六十天之后，这些人虽然之前六十天都没达成目标，但不知出于什么原因，他们决定调整自己，开始几乎总是达成目标，持续至少一百二十天。

And then after that sixty days, these are people who, although they didn't meet it for sixty days, for whatever reason, they decided to get it together, and they start almost always meeting it for at least one hundred and twenty.

所以这是一个非常特定的样本，对吧？

So it's a very specific sample, right?

但在这个平台上人数这么多，我们可以找到很多这样的人。

But with so many people on the platform, we can find lots of those people.

因此，我们现在可以研究不同人之间的影响，即那些能达成压力目标的人与那些不能达成的人之间的差异。

So now we can look at both the between person effects of somebody who makes strain targets versus somebody who doesn't.

我们也可以研究个人内部的影响，即你随着时间推移会发生什么变化。

And we can look at the within person effects, what happens to you over time.

当然，我们希望两者能告诉我们相似的结论。

And what we hope, of course, is that they tell us a similar story.

好消息是，它们确实如此。

And the good news is that they do.

当然，并不完全一样，因为那些一直坚持的人已经持续了超过一百二十天。

Not quite the same, of course, because somebody who's always been doing it has been doing it for longer than one hundred and twenty days.

但即便如此，整体趋势看起来非常相似。

But nonetheless, the story looks very similar.

所以如果我们从两个不同的样本开始，一个是基本一直达标的人，另一个是从来都不达标的人。

So if we start with two different samples, folks who basically always do and do, never do.

我们可以先从心率变异性（HRV）说起。

We can start with, for example, HRV.

如果我们观察那些几乎总是达成压力目标的人，他们的平均HRV是70。

If we look at folks who basically almost always meet their strain targets, their average HRV is 70.

这可能看起来不算特别高，但要记住，年纪大的人通常HRV较低，所以整体平均下来是合理的。

Now, that might not seem super high, but remember, older folks tend to have lower HRVs, and so it all averages out.

相比之下，那些几乎从不达成压力目标的人，他们的平均HRV在40多的高位。

In contrast, the folks who almost never meet their strain targets, their average HRV is in the upper 40s.

所以两者的差距超过20点。

So it's more than 20 points different.

我的意思是，这太惊人了。

I mean, that is insane.

所以我们得暂停一下，因为我觉得我们给Strain Coach的曝光时间还不够。

So we just need to pause because I think, you know, we don't give enough airtime to Strain Coach.

是的

Yeah.

我的意思是，Strain Coach 真的太强大了。

I mean, Strain Coach is so damn powerful.

Strain Coach 知道自己在说什么。

Strain coach knows what it's talking about.

它知道自己在说什么。

It knows what it's talking about.

而且，如果你真的只是听从你的应变目标，达成它，你就已经处于非常好的状态了。

And I mean, just if you literally if all you do is just listen to your strain target, meet your strain target, you are in such a good spot.

谈谈静息心率吧。

Talk about resting heart rate.

关于静息心率，我们看到类似的情况。

So resting heart rate, we see a similar story.

那些几乎总是达成应变目标的人，他们的静息心率大约是 54。

So the folks who basically always meet their strain targets, their resting heart rate is around 54.

那些几乎从不达到应变目标的人，静息心率大约在61.5左右。

The folks who almost never meet their strain targets, it's up around 61 and a half.

我的意思是，

I mean,

是的，静息心率相差了七点。

yeah, seven points difference in resting heart rate.

这真是

That's a

很大的差别。

big difference.

太惊人了。

So wild.

是的。

Yeah.

这些差异都很大。

So these are big differences.

我们在这个范围内也发现了性别差异。

We find sex differences within that as well.

是的。

Yeah.

平均而言，男性的静息心率较低，心率变异性略高。

On average, men have lower resting heart rates and slightly higher HRVs.

但基本上，这就是情况的全貌。

But basically, that's what the story looks like.

还有年龄，显然年龄差异。

And age, obviously age differences.

年龄带来的

Age makes

影响要大得多

you way bigger effects

远超过性别差异。

than sex differences.

所以有些人非常健康，但在五六十岁时，他们的HRV却像我一样低得可怜。

So people are super fit, but in their 50s and 60s, their HRV is in basement like mine.

我的HRV几乎一直徘徊在30多。

Mine hovers in the 30s almost all the time.

如果你的HRV降到30多，你就得住院了。

And if yours went to the 30s, you check into the hospital.

但对我来说，38已经不错了。

But I'm like, Oh, 38.

我今天感觉挺好的。

I'm feeling pretty good today.

这就是会发生的情况。

So that's what happens.

但有趣的是，当我们观察他们的睡眠时。

But what's also interesting is when we look at their sleep.

在这里我们发现，那些总是达成压力目标的人，你可能会想，哦，他们一定很努力。

And here we find that the folks who always meet their strain targets, you you'd think, oh, well, they're working hard.

他们一定睡得很多。

They must sleep a lot.

不，恰恰相反。

No, it's the exact opposite.

他们每晚实际比那些几乎从不达成压力目标的人少睡大约五分钟。

They're actually sleeping about five minutes less per night than the folks who almost never meet their strain targets.

是的。

Yeah.

所以他们的身体变得更高效了，或者从一开始就如此。

And so their body just becomes more efficient or it started life that way.

我们并不确定。

We don't know with certainty.

但我稍后会再回到这一点，因为记住，我们要观察那些改变自己的人。

But I'll come back to that point in a second because remember, we're going look at people who change themselves.

从这里来看，你会说，如果你天生就精力充沛，那么你就会多运动、少睡觉。

From here, you'd either say, well, if you're genetically predisposed to really be full of energy, then you exercise a lot and you don't sleep much.

但这引出了一个问题：你能改变自己吗？

But that leads to, can you change yourself?

如果你开始积极锻炼，会发生什么？

What happens if you just pick up your game and start exercising a lot?

为回答这个问题，我们转向一个有趣的子群体：这些人至少两个月从未达到压力目标，然后

So to answer that question, we turn to that kind of interesting subsample of people who basically never meet strain targets for at least two months and then

持续至少四个月。

do for at least four.

当我们这样分析时，发现HRV和RHR的差异虽然没有我刚才提到的那么大，但依然非常明显。

And when we do that, we see the differences in HRV and RHR not as big as the ones I just told you, but they're very clearly there.

如果我们从HRV开始看，基本上，当你从未达到压力目标时，男性初始值大约在60左右，女性则在40多的高位。

If we start with HRV, basically, when you never met your strain targets, you start out life around 60 if you're male, around upper 40s if you're female.

而且，年龄差异也同样存在。

And and again, there's age difference as well.

当你开始达到压力目标时，你的HRV会提升大约5个点。

And then as you start meeting your strain targets, your HIV rises about five points.

而在这里，它似乎基本趋于平稳。

And there it seems to basically flatten out.

在更长的时间内会发生什么，我不知道。

What it would do over longer periods of time, I don't know.

我猜测它会缓慢地继续上升，但在开始几个月达到应变目标后，我们看到的上升幅度变小了。

My guess is that it would slowly, slowly continue to rise, but we see less of a rise after the first few months of meeting your strain targets.

我们在静息心率上也看到了同样的情况。

And we see the same thing with with resting heart rate.

如果你是男性，它一开始大约在58左右，略低一点。

If you're male again, it starts out pretty close to 58, tiny bit below that.

当你开始达到应变目标时，它会下降到接近54。

And then as you start meeting your strain targets, it drops down almost to 54.

所以你提升了近四个点，然后它就趋于平稳了。

So you gain almost four points and then it kind of flattens out.

但问题是，你的睡眠会发生什么变化？

The question, though, of course, is what happens to your sleep?

你有没有发现，突然间你达到了以前从没达到过的训练强度目标？

Do you start to you know, you're suddenly meeting strain targets you never used to meet?

确实，当你在最初几个月开始增加锻炼时，睡眠时间会稍微增加，但随后你的睡眠时间又开始减少。

Well, sure enough, as you start to exercise more for the first few months, you start to sleep a little bit more, but then you start to sleep less.

以至于到了六个月结束时——前两个月没锻炼，接下来四个月坚持锻炼——你的睡眠时间实际上比刚开始时还少。

So much so that by the end of that six month period, you know, your first two months not working out, the next four months of working out, your sleep is actually lower than it was when you started.

所以你的睡眠变少了。

So you're sleeping less.

你已经变得更高效了。

You've become a more efficient machine.

我觉得还有一件非常重要的事情要提一下，就是训练强度指导。

One of the things that I think is also really important to call out is strain coach.

你一天能承受的训练强度取决于你的恢复状况。

So how much strain you can take on a day is based on your recovery.

对吧？

Right?

那么你恢复得怎么样，能承受多大的负荷？

So how recovered are you to take on strain?

然后我们会根据你的恢复情况为你设定一个负荷目标。

And then we will assign you a strain target based on that recovery.

真正酷的是，遵循负荷教练的人实际上会获得一个与你恢复状态相匹配的负荷量。

So what's really cool is that the people who are following strain coach are basically you are getting assigned a strain that is appropriate relative to your recovery.

没错。

Absolutely.

它并不是

It's not

每天都一样的。

the same every day.

而且它，是的。

And it yeah.

而且它会有所不同。

And it's gonna be different.

而这正是我作为一名教练多年来一直想解决的核心问题。

And and that's where I mean, this is the whole thing we were trying to solve as a coach for

对。

Right.

十三年了。

Thirteen years.

我的意思是，这正是判断该让运动员训练多大强度的关键信息，对吧？

I mean, this the golden bit of information in terms of knowing how hard do I train my athlete, right?

训练强度必须基于他们当天的身体承受能力。

It's got to be based on their capacity that day.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

因为显而易见，如果你处于一种超出自身承受能力的状态，那迟早会导致过度训练和倦怠，对吧？

Because it stands to reason if you're in a situation where you are, you've got a capacity and you are exceeding that capacity, that is gonna lead to burnout, right?

或者，你知道的，为了

Or, you know, to

如果你每天都这么做。

If you do it every day.

是的。

Yeah.

有些日子，稍微一点是有益的，对吧？

In some days, a little bit is functional, right?

就像这样。

Like it Mhmm.

我想表达的是，当你根据恢复情况合理地施加负荷时，你的睡眠会自然地进行调整。

What I'm kind of getting at is that when you are kind of appropriately applying load relative to recovery, your sleep is going to kind of adjust Mhmm.

以一种非常适应性的方式。

In ways that are super adaptive.

对吧？

Right?

你实际上可以躺在床上的时间更少，对吧？

You're able to spend literally less time in bed, right?

你训练得越恰当。

The more appropriate you train.

你知道，如果你训练不足，这可能会导致睡眠效果不佳，对吧？

You know, if you're under training, that is going to probably lead to sleep that is not as impactful, right?

而如果你以恰当且有效的方式训练，就能获得事半功倍的心血管收益。

Whereas if you're, you know, really training in ways that are appropriate and functional, you get just this cardiovascular bag for your buck.

你实际上需要在床上的时间更少，而且会成为一个更高效的睡眠者。

You actually have to spend less time in bed and you become a more efficient sleeper.

我的意思是，这些连锁影响只是

I mean, the knockoff effects are just

非常明显。

very clear.

我记得曾和我侄子以及他的室友讨论过这些确切的数据，他们都是超马跑者。

I remember having a conversation about these exact data with my nephew and his roommates, and they're all these ultramarathoners.

我问他们，在普通训练日之后你们睡得怎么样？

And I was asking them, how do you sleep after a regular training day?

当你进行适当训练时，他们会说：哦，我睡得特别香。

Like when you're properly training, they're like, Oh, I sleep beautifully.

我问：那跑完马拉松之后你们睡得怎么样？

I say, How do you sleep after a marathon?

哦，我睡得特别差。

Oh, I sleep terribly.

对吧？

Right?

因为那时你训练过度了。

Because then you've over-

你训练过头了。

You've over trained.

那天晚上代价很大。

It's costly that night.

第二天晚上你就又回到训练中了。

The next night you're back in the saddle.

但对于那些什么也不做的日子，他们觉得睡眠质量没那么差，不像跑完马拉松那样，但他们的

But for them on days where they do nothing, they feel like they sleep not as bad as after a marathon, but their And

这就是表现和健康相互矛盾的地方。

that's where performance and health are orthogonal.

对吧？

Right?

但这是值得的，因为你正在牺牲过多的

Like, but it's worth it because you're you're sacrificing over

这最终也有助于他们建立起来。

That also helps them build in the end.

对吧？

Right?

当然。

Of course.

是的。

Yeah.

你持续跑马拉松，最终这就不算什么了。

You keep running marathons and eventually that's not a big deal.

对。

Right.

完全正确。

Totally.

大家好啊？

What's up, folks?

如果你喜欢这个播客，或者你关心健康、表现和健身，你可能会非常喜欢使用WHOOP。

If you are enjoying this podcast or if you care about health, performance, fitness, you may really enjoy getting a WHOOP.

没错。

That's right.

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You can check out Whoop at whoop.com.

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It measures everything around sleep, recovery, strain, and you can now sign up for free for thirty days.

所以你实际上会免费收到这款高性能可穿戴设备。

So you'll literally get the high performance wearable in the mail for free.

试用三十天，看看你是否想成为会员。

Get to try it for thirty days, see whether you wanna be a member.

只需访问 whoop.com 即可。

And that is just at whoop.com.

回到我们的嘉宾。

Back to the guests.

运动的放大效应。

Amplifying effects of exercise.

这并不是我原本有意寻找的东西。

So this is not something that I was actually looking for.

我是偶然发现的。

It was something I found on accident.

我都想不起来当时找的是什么了，就碰巧发现了它。

I can't even remember what I was looking for when I found it.

这就有点像你去阁楼找滑雪板，结果顺便看到了那个网球拍架。

It's a little bit like you're going through the attic looking for your skis and there is that tennis rack anyway.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我不知怎么就偶然发现了这个东西。

So somehow I accidentally ran across this.

我发现，当你锻炼的日子，如果你练得不错，它对你的影响会比你练得不好时大得多。

What I found was that on days that you exercise, if you've done something good, it has a bigger impact on you than if you haven't done something good.

我觉得我当时其实是在看你们收集的限时饮食数据。

I think I was actually looking at the time restricted eating data that you were collecting.

我想就是从那里开始的。

I think that's where it started.

你曾让我帮忙处理一下这些数据。

And you'd asked me to do something with it.

我已经不记得你当时问的是什么了。

I can't remember what you even asked anymore.

但我随便翻看时发现，在DAISY上你的训练量低于Strain Coach建议的水平。

But I was noodling around and I saw that on DAISY you underreach compared to what Strain Coach says that you should do.

比如TRE，我们来看看它对HRV的影响：如果你进行TRE，你的HRV会提升两点。

That TRE, let's say, we'll look at the effects on HRV, that it gives you, if you engage in TRE, you gain two points of HRV.

TRE是指时间限制性饮食。

And TRE is time restricted

进食。

eating.

抱歉，没错，就是这样。

Sorry, yes, that's right.

这意味着，简单来说，只在白天时段进食，但如果你过度训练，通过时间限制性饮食你的HRV会提升三点。

Which means, know, just during the daylight hours But if you overreached, you gained three points of HRV by time restricted eating.

所以，在你运动更多的日子里，它的效果实际上提升了50%。

So it literally had 50% more impact on you on days you exercise more.

对于静息心率，情况也是一样的。

And the same holds with resting heart rate.

你在不足训练的日子里，心率下降一点，但在过度训练的日子里，心率会下降一点五。

You drop one point on days you under reach, but you drop a point and a half on days you overreach.

所以我觉得，嗯，这挺奇怪的。

So I like, Well, that's pretty weird.

我想知道，这种现象是否也会在其他领域出现，对吧？

I wonder if it emerges in other domains as well, right?

这可能是一种与TRE有关的奇特现象。

Like this could be this weird thing that has to do with TRE.

因为饮食和运动显然是相关的。

Because eating and exercise, they're obviously related.

所以我问自己，克里斯汀让我关注的那些与运动完全无关的事情是什么？

So I said, Well, what has been Kristen have been having me look at that has nothing to do with exercise at all?

然后我想到了，早晨的阳光。

And I thought, Oh, morning sun.

早上让光线照在脸上，与你的实际活动没有任何关系。

Getting a light on your face in the morning has no bearing whatsoever on your actual activity.

效果虽然没那么明显，但确实存在。

Well, the effects aren't as large, but they're clearly there.

所以在你活动不足的日子里，早晨的阳光能让你的HRV增加约0.65分。

So on days that you under reach, morning sun gains you about 0.65 of a point of HRV.

在你过度活动的日子里，它能让你的HRV增加约0.85分。

On days that you overreach, it gains you like 0.85 of a point of HRV.

对于静息心率也是如此。

Same with resting heart rate.

你在活动不足的日子里，心率大约下降0.2次/分；在过度活动的日子里，大约下降0.3次/分。

You drop about zero two of a beat on days you underreach, you drop about zero three on days you overreach.

我当时想，这还真是挺奇怪的。

I was like, Okay, that's pretty weird.

但你知道，早晨的阳光，就是这样。

But, you know, morning sun exercises, alls.

所以我心想，好吧，让我做点完全无关的事情，因为这件事直到锻炼结束后才发生。

So I thought, Well, let me do something that's completely irrelevant because it hasn't even happened till the exercise is done.

因为你知道，你早晨的阳光，白天的眼泪。

Because, you know, your morning sun in the morning, your teary during the day.

是的。

Yeah.

于是我找出了防蓝光眼镜，晚上戴上它。

So I pulled up blue light blocking glasses, putting them on at night.

对。

Yeah.

在你想恢复的日子里，防蓝光眼镜能让你的HRV提升约两点。

And on days you wanted to reach, blue light blocking glasses gain you about two points of HRV.

在你过度训练的日子里，它能让你的HRV提升约四点。

On days you overreach, I gain you about four points of HRV.

这真是太不可思议了。

That is just wild.

这太奇怪了。

It's bizarre.

在相同的静息心率下，你在恢复不足的日子里会减少大约一次心跳。

At same resting heart rate, you lose about one beat on days you underreach.

在恢复过度的日子里，你会减少大约两次心跳。

You lose about two beats on days you overreach.

所以，在你锻炼的日子里，积极的行为会产生几乎两倍的正面影响。

So the days that you are exercising, positive behaviors are going to have almost double the positive impact.

对你的心血管系统的影响是1.5到2倍。

One and a half to two times the impact on your cardiovascular system.

真是不可思议。

Just wild.

那么，当然，我想到了，那如果你不乖呢？

So then, of course, I thought, well, what about if you're naughty?

不乖的行为。

Naughty behaviors.

不是每个人都会只做好事，对吧？

Not everybody does just good things, right?

因此，在我们的数据集中，典型的不良行为就是饮酒。

And so our classic naughty behavior that we have in our data set is alcohol.

我们知道，这种行为对你的静息生理状态的负面影响比其他任何行为都要大。

We know that has a bigger negative effect on your resting physiology than anything else that people do.

于是我查看了一个数据集，效果非常明显。

And so I looked at one data set and the effects were so clear.

我又在另一个数据集中进行了双重验证。

I just double checked in another data set.

结果完全一样，只是方向相反。

Same exact thing, except in the opposite direction.

因此，在你恢复不足的日子里，饮酒对你造成的伤害不如你在过度训练的日子里那么严重。

So now on days you underreach, alcohol is not as bad for you as on days you overreach.

不过，再次强调，大多数人是在晚上饮酒，而恢复不足或过度训练的情况那时已经结束了。

Now, again, most people are drinking alcohol in the evening, so the underreaching or overreaching are over.

然而，在你未达到目标的日子里，无论你是否饮酒，都会被记录下来。

Nonetheless, on days you underreach are coded these days whether you drank or not.

完全是二元的。

Totally binary.

是的，就是二元的。

Yes, just binary.

你喝酒了吗？

Did you drink?

在你饮酒的日子里，平均而言，你的HIV会下降六点。

On days you drink, on average, your HIV drops six points.

在你过度运动的日子里，平均而言，它会下降九点。

On days you're overreach, on average, it drops nine points.

就静息心率而言，在你饮酒的日子里，你的静息心率会上升大约四次跳动。

As far as resting heart rate is concerned, on days that you drank, your resting heart rate goes up about four beats.

这是在你未达到目标的时候。

That's when you underreach.

当你过度运动时，它会上升大约五点五次。

When you overreach, it goes up about five and a half.

所以当你运动更多时，酒精对你的伤害更大，而蓝光眼镜在你运动更多时对你更有益。

And so alcohol is worse for you when you exercised more, and blue light glasses are better for you when you exercised more.

这太疯狂了。

It's wild.

你觉得酒精和运动之间有关系吗？

Do you think with the alcohol and the exercise?

所以如果我锻炼了，而且白天感觉特别自律，晚上就会喝得更多。

So if I, you know, work out and like I feel like during the day I was really good, I drink more at night.

这有可能。

That's possible.

我需要回去看一下。

And I need to go back.

我们做不到。

We can't.

这还太新了，刚出炉。

This is too hot off the press.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

这不是非黑即白的。

This is not binary.

我们还没写出来。

We haven't written it up yet.

我只是知道这是人们所认为的。

I just know that this is what

人们正在想，这是个好问题。

people It's are thinking, a great question.

我们可能会

It could We'll

尝试进行区分。

try to disambiguate.

它会试图基本弄清楚人们喝了多少钱饮料，以便我们能更清楚地了解这一点。

It will try to basically figure out how many drinks people are having just so we can be more clear on that.

我们需要做 exactly 这件事，因为我并不总是在数据集中有饮酒数据，但我确实有包含饮酒的数据集。

We need to do exactly that because I don't always have drinks in the data set, but I've got data set with drinks.

而且我可以提出完全相同的问题，而我确实需要这么做。

And I can ask that exact same question, which I need to do.

这是个很好的观点。

It's a great point.

原则上，真正应该发生的是，无论你是否锻炼过，每一份饮酒对你来说都更糟糕。

In principle, what ought to be happening is that every drink is worse for you when you've exercised and when you haven't.

现在，如果这一点成立，就会有两种诱惑。

Now, if that holds, there's two temptations.

一种是说，酒精到底发生了什么？

One is to say, well, what's going on with alcohol?

蓝光眼镜是怎么回事？

What's going on with blue light glasses?

太阳又是怎么回事？

What's going on with the sun?

特里又是怎么回事？

What's going on with Terry?

你可以每次都编出一个不同的故事。

And you can come up with a different story every time.

是的。

Yeah.

但在科学中，我们不喜欢这样。

In science, we don't like that, though.

我们喜欢简洁性。

We like parsimony.

对。

Yeah.

所以在理想的世界里，有一种解释认为，运动会对你的身体产生某种作用，让好的变得更好，坏的变得更糟，对吧？

And so in an ideal world, there's one explanation that basically says exercise does something to you that causes good to get gooder and bad to get badder, right?

是的。

Yeah.

我不知道那会是什么。

I have no idea what that might be.

这是一个偶然的发现。

This is such an accidental finding.

是的。

Yeah.

正如你所知，我还没有完全分析它。

As you can tell, I haven't fully analyzed it yet.

是的。

Yeah.

我们甚至还没有开始撰写这篇论文，但它提出了一个非常有趣的可能性：如果你要行善，那就选在运动的日子做。

We haven't even started trying to write it up, but it raises a very interesting possibility, which is if you're going to be virtuous, do it on days you exercise.

如果你要放纵自己，那就选那些你偷懒的日子，对吧？

If you're going be naughty, do it on days that you're lazy, right?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

太惊人了。

Wild.

我们来谈谈HRVCV作为负荷预测指标，也就是压力成本。

Let's talk about HRVCV as a predictor of load, so cost of strain.

还记得吗？我们之前讨论过，HRVCV是你心率变异性的一种长期波动。

So remember, we were talking earlier about how HRVCV is this long term fluctuation in your HRV.

如果你非常健康，当你增加负荷时，你的HRV不会发生太大变化，因为你的HRVCV很低。

And if you're very fit, when you take on additional load, you don't get a big change in your HRV as a consequence, because your HRVCV is low.

像你这样的人HRVCV很低，而像我这样的人HRVCV则很高。

Somebody like you has a low HRVCV, somebody like me has a big one.

所以显然，目标是尽可能保持高体能水平，使HRVCV保持在低位。

So obviously, the goal is to be as fit as possible with a low HRVCV.

但这引出了一个可能性。

Well, that raises the possibility.

原则上，这意味着克里斯蒂安承受运动负荷时，付出的代价比比尔要小得多。

In principle, what that means is that when Christian takes on athletic load, she doesn't pay as big of a price as when Bill does.

所以我们就想直接回答这个问题。

So we just wanted to answer that exact question.

于是我们回溯了数据，将HRVCV低于我们指标10的人归为极低组，一直到HRVCV高于30的高组。

So what we did is we looked back at the data and we categorized people who have very low HRVCV down below 10 on our metric all the way up to people who have quite high one over 30 on our metric.

白天和夜间测量时，情况会有所不同。

It works differently depending if you measure during the day or night.

但这就是我们的测量方式。

But that's how we measure it.

我们发现，把二区和三区加在一起，统称为‘Zone 23’，每分钟Zone 23都这样计算。

And what we found is that take zones two and three and add them together and then just call them sort of Zone 23 for every minute of Zone 23.

所以，一次只进行一分钟。

So just one minute at a time.

如果我的HRVCV非常低，也就是说我非常健康，那么每一分钟都会让我的心率恢复值增加一次。

If my HRVCV is really low, so I'm very fit every minute of it costs me an RHR.

因此，每分钟，如果我的HRVCV非常低，就会让我静息心率降低百分之一。

So every minute, if I'm I have a very low HRVCV cost me one one hundredth of a point in resting heart rate.

如果我的HRVCV超过30，那么每分钟会让我的静息心率降低百分之三点五。

Every minute cost me three and a halfone hundredth of a point in resting heart rate if I have an HRVCV over 30.

所以，当我的HRVCV非常高时，每分钟锻炼所付出的代价是HRVCV非常低时的三倍以上。

So I'm paying three times, more than three times the price for every minute of exercise when I have a very high HRVCV than I want to have a very low one.

我的身体对它反应非常敏感。

My body is just very reactive to it.

再次强调，一定要听String Coach的建议。

Had a really Again, listen to String Coach.

是的，正是如此。

Yeah, exactly.

你只需以适当的节奏逐步增强体能。

You just like incrementally get fitter at appropriate pace.

没错。

Exactly.

因此，我们甚至拥有一个非常干净的数据集，但问题是，有时四区和五区这些高强度心率区间，其实是运动伪影或其他因素造成的。

And so that we even had a very clean data set where problem the is that sometimes Zone four and Zone five, those really high heart rate zones are a byproduct of some artifact of movement and stuff like that.

所以我们只想分析那些确实在运动的时间段，而不是其他可能干扰的情况。

So we wanted to take a look at only when we knew they were actually exercising, not when something else might be going on.

结果我们发现，有一组人非常认真地记录了自己的活动。

And it turned out we had a data set where people were logging their activities really religiously.

于是我们专门研究了这些人，发现他们的数据一直上升到四区。

And so we looked at just those folks, and then we could see that goes all the way up to Zone four.

五区我不太确定发生了什么，因为人们每天在五区的运动时间实在太少了。

Zone five, I'm not quite sure what's happening because people do so few minutes of Zone five a day.

但同样的规律在四区也成立。

But the same story holds with Zone four.

当你的心率变异性较低时，为此付出的代价远比心率变异性高时要小得多。

When you've got low HRVCV, you pay much less of a price for it than when you have a high HRVCV.

是的，这很有趣。

Yeah, it's interesting.

再次强调，我认为让人们理解这些动态，确实验证了我们的教练方法。

Again, I think for people to understand these dynamics really does validate our coaching that we have, you know.

当我们谈论零点零几的差异时，听起来似乎很小，对吧？

And it sounds when we're talking about, you know, a hundredth of a point, like it sounds small, right?

但每一分钟

But for every minute

这是一分钟。

It's a minute.

对。

Yeah.

我就是这个意思。

That's what I'm saying.

每一次这样的累积，其实会非常迅速地叠加起来。

For every like that adds up, like, really, really quickly.

所以，我觉得这正是一个绝佳的推荐，关于每天坚持这样做。

And so, you know, I think that's yeah, I mean, I think it's just this is just a great plug you know, For this daily.

是的，就像

Yeah, like

见你的力量教练。

meeting your strength coach.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你每天都能见到你的力量教练，你的HIV CV就会慢慢下降。

If you meet your strength coach every day, your HIV CV slowly drops.

是的。

Yeah.

然后你就达到了这样的状态：无论别人要求你做些超出常规的事，还是你自己主动决定去做，你第二天都能立刻恢复如常，毫不费力。

And then you get to the position where when something untoward is asked of you or you decide to do it of your own accord either way, you bounce right back the next day like it's nothing.

Strain Coach 的一个优点是，对于那些精英自行车手或在团队中与运动科学家合作的人来说，Strain Coach 可能并不那么有价值，因为他们的目标完全不同。

And what's great about the Strain Coach, and I think for folks, if you're an elite cyclist or, you know, are working with sports scientists on teams, like, strain coach might in in fact not be as valuable for you because there's just different goals.

他们的训练计划本身就非常不一样。

They're you know, the just the programming is very different.

对吧？

Right?

所以对这些人来说，Strain Coach 可能并不适用。

So strain coach might not hold for those folks.

我觉得有必要明确这一点。

I think it's important to to say that.

但对于那些注重长寿的普通普通人来说。

But for the regular kind of Jane and Joe who are focused on longevity.

并且感觉状态最佳。

And feeling their best.

并且能够良好恢复、好好睡觉，日复一日地持续下去。

And feeling their best and being able to recover and sleep and, you know, repeat that day in and day out.

我的意思是，听听应变教练的建议。

I mean, listen to strain coach.

是的，如果我们这样做，我们所有的数据都显示它能极大地帮助你。

Yeah, if you do, all of our data are showing us that it helps you enormously.

而且妙处在于，还记得那些你连续六十天使用Slack，然后开启应变教练后，那些人开始变得像真正健康的人一样吗？

And the beauty is, remember those data where you were at Slack for sixty days and then you turned it on and you hit, you know, those folks start to look like the really fit folks.

对。

Yeah.

如果你认真对待并坚持去做，这并不难。

It's not that hard if you're conscientious and do it.

要达到这个目标并不难。

It's not that hard to get there.

我认为还有一点需要记住的是：听好了，我得承认这一点。

And I think the thing to also remember is like, look, I I have to admit this.

我不该在公共场合说，但我真的讨厌那种我知道自己在锻炼的有氧运动。

I shouldn't in public, but I hate aerobic exercise where I know I'm exercising.

是的

Yeah.

这对我来说简直像酷刑。

It just feels like torture to me.

是的

Yeah.

如果我骑健身车或者去跑步，还不如直接打我一拳。

If I get on an exercise bike or go for a run, you might as well punch me in the face.

我讨厌它。

I hate it.

但我真的很喜欢打壁球？

But like I can I love to play squash?

是的

Yeah.

然后我试图赢过对方。

And then I'm trying to beat the person.

我并没有在想自己在锻炼。

I'm not thinking about the exercise I'm getting.

但也不一定非得是高强度的运动。

But it doesn't even need to be high intensity stuff.

二区、三区的运动对你真的非常好。

The zone two, three stuff is really, really good for you.

对很多人来说，那就是快步走。

And for lots of people, that's a really brisk walk.

就是爬坡。

It's going up a hill.

就是这类事情。

It's things like that.

我们并不是说每晚都要去进行高强度间歇训练。

We're not saying go out and do HIIT training every night.

我们说的是，给自己设定一些合理且很容易实现的目标。

We're saying, you know, set yourself reasonable goals that are very achievable.

你只需要抽出时间来做这件事。

You just have to carve out the time to do it.

从我的角度来看，假设你从未达到过你的压力目标。

And from my perspective, let's say that you're somebody who's never meeting your strain targets.

最好的开始方式就是饭后快走。

The perfect way to start is go for a brisk walk after your meal.

是的，这对你是双重有益，对吧？

Yeah, it's doubly good for you, right?

有助于消化食物，让你感觉更好。

Helps you digest that meal and feel better.

没错。

Right.

同时，

At same time,

血糖水平。

glucose levels.

而且

And

与此同时，你正在逐步建立你的压力值。

at the same time, you're starting to build your strain.

你正在越来越接近达成你的压力目标。

You're getting closer to meeting your strain targets.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是为什么我们正在努力将HRVCV引入平台，我们只是慢慢让人们对它有所了解，因为它在我们的分析中反复证明了其价值。

And this is why you know, we're working hard to introduce HRVCV into into the platform, and we're just kinda slowly letting people know what it is and because it really does play ball in our analysis over and over again.

所以我们希望利用它，帮助人们理解或感受这种长期的健康状况，而HRVCV正是衡量这一状况的绝佳指标。

So we wanna be able to leverage it, right, to help people understand or get a sense of this longer term view of fitness, which is HRVCB is an amazing measure for.

是的，这是一个很棒的工具。

Yeah, it's a wonderful tool.

我得承认，你第一次跟我提起它的时候，我并没有轻视它。

I have to admit, when you first told me about it, I didn't pooh pooh it.

是的，你很怀疑。

Yeah, you're skeptical.

我以前也很怀疑。

I was skeptical.

完全正确。

Exactly right.

我当时想，那就走着瞧吧。

And I thought, well, we'll see.

但我现在已经完全信服了。

But I'm totally converted.

我深信不疑。

I'm assolded.

这是一个很棒的指标。

It's a great measure.

是的，我们在运动科学领域已经用了好几年了。

Yeah, we've been using it in sports science, you know, for for years.

你知道吗，仅从急性角度观察心率变异性就具有极大的实用价值，非常重要，对吧？

You know, just looking at HRV acutely has so much utility and is really important, right?

而且很有帮助，你知道的，我们只是试图放宽视野，观察趋势。

And helpful, you know, and we're just trying to kind of zoom out and look at trends.

HRVCV 是一个如此出色、出色的工具。

HRVCV is just such a wonderful, wonderful tool.

所以我非常喜欢这一点。

So I love that.

好的。

Okay.

让我们谈谈我们之前提到的、能改善睡眠的行为。

Let's talk about we we alluded to it, behaviors that improve sleep.

你提到了蓝光阻挡眼镜，但这属于我们威胁挑战论文的一部分。

You mentioned blue eye blocking glasses, but this is part of our threat challenge paper.

我们

We

还研究了睡眠问题和睡眠焦虑

also looked at sleep concerns and sleep anxiety

没错。

That's right.

作为问题来探讨。

As questions.

因此，从这个数据集中，我们获得了大量关于哪些行为真正有助于减缓入睡、促进快速眼动睡眠、提高睡眠一致性以及减少夜间醒来的有趣见解。

So from that data set, we were able to glean a lot of really interesting insights in terms of what behaviors really promote slowing sleep, REM, sleep consistency, reduced awakenings.

所以这真的是一种非常棒的、我认为极具洞察力的来源。

So this was really like such a cool, I think, source of insight.

我非常兴奋

I'm very excited

来分享。

to share.

这是一个很棒的数据集。

It's a great data set.

我们非常感谢你们这11000位用户，认真持续地记录自己的日常活动。

We really appreciated the 11,000 of you who are so and conscientiously figuring it continuing to journal your activities.

因此，我们决定仔细分析那些有助于提升睡眠规律性和延长睡眠时长的行为。

And so what we did is we said, all right, well, let's take a look at behaviors that improve sleep consistency and that enhance sleep duration.

你可能会想，行为怎么可能提高睡眠的规律性呢？

And you might think, well, how could a behavior increase sleep consistency?

比如，为什么调暗灯光会让我每天在同一时间上床、在同一时间起床？

Why would it matter, for example, if I dim the lights, why would that cause me to go to bed at the same time and wake up at the same time?

但如果你退一步想想，答案就很清楚了：仅仅躺上床，并不意味着你真的睡着了。

And the answer, once you step back and think about it, is that just because you got in bed doesn't mean you fall asleep.

所以，即使我每天都在完全相同的时间上床，但如果有些晚上难以入睡，而另一些晚上睡得很快，我的睡眠规律性得分仍然会很差。

So I could be super conscientious and get in my bed at the exact same time every night, but still have a poor sleep consistency score if I struggle to fall asleep some nights and not others.

而且

And

为了明确一点，睡眠规律性衡量的是你进入生理睡眠状态的具体时间点。

just to be clear, sleep consistency is measuring when the time point that you drop into physiological sleep.

重要的不是你上床的时间。

It's not the time that you get in bed.

而是你真正入睡的时间。

It's the time that you actually fall asleep.

什么

What

真正重要的是，当你躺在床上后，什么能帮助你入睡。

really matters is what helps you fall asleep once you're in bed.

而那些能帮助你躺在床上后入睡的因素，自然会提升睡眠一致性与睡眠时长。

And things that help you fall asleep once you're in bed are naturally going to enhance both sleep consistency and sleep duration.

因为一旦你更快入睡，在一周的大多数日子里，你的闹钟明天早上依然会在同一时间响起，同时你的睡眠一致性分数也会提高。

Because once you fall asleep quicker, for most of the days of week, your alarm's still going to go off at the same time tomorrow morning, but also your sleep consistency score will improve as well.

所以我们研究了大量不同的行为。

So we looked at a ton of different behaviors.

同样，这里有个前提。

Again, same caveat.

这些内容都还没有经过同行评审。

None of this stuff is peer reviewed yet.

这仅仅是我们发现的一些现象。

This is just things that we found.

这还有一个额外的注意事项：尽管我们的样本规模很好，有11000人，但由于并非每个人都会执行所有这些行为，因此不同行为对应的样本量要小得多。

And this one has one more caveat, which is even though our sample was wonderful with 11,000 people, because not everybody does all these behaviors, our sample sizes are much smaller with the different behaviors.

这意味着我们尚未提出一个非常重要的问题：我会给你列出一些有助于睡眠的行为。

And what that meant is that we haven't yet asked a really important question, which is, I'm going to give you a list of behaviors that help.

但我还不知道同时做两项是否比只做一项更好。

I don't yet know if doing two of them is better than doing one.

做三项比做两项更好吗？

Is three better than two, right?

对于某些行为，你可能可以继续叠加，但对另一些则未必有效。

Probably for some of them, you can keep adding them together and for others not so much.

举个例子，在我们之前的另一项研究中，我们发现，服用褪黑素和镁并不会造成伤害，但单独使用它们时，效果不如同时使用两者，因为它们似乎能协同发挥作用。

And by way of example, earlier in our other research, we found that if you take melatonin and magnesium, does you no harm, but they don't benefit you individually as much as if you do either melatonin or magnesium because they seem to kind of work together.