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Welcome to Wireless Future.
我是埃米尔·比尔纳松,和往常一样,我和埃里克·拉尔森在一起。
I'm Emil Bjarnson, and as always, I'm here with Erik Larsson.
你今天怎么样?
How are you today?
你好,埃米尔,很好。
Hello Emil, good.
你呢?
How are you?
我很好。
I'm great.
今天我期待和你聊聊天线阵列。
And I'm looking forward today to talk to you about antenna arrays.
在你看来,什么是天线阵列?
So what is an antenna array to you?
当然,埃米尔。
Absolutely, Emil.
所以是天线。
So antennas.
首先,天线可以是很多不同的东西。
Well, to start with, an antenna could be a lot of different things.
我的意思是,在教科书里它可能只是一个小小的线条或符号,但现实中,它可能是单极子、偶极子,更常见的是贴片天线。
I mean, in the textbook it's just a little dash or something in the figure, but in reality, of course, it could be monopolar, dipolar, more commonly a patch antenna.
当我们提到天线阵列时,意思就是多个天线以某种方式排列在一起。
And then when we speak of antenna arrays, then we simply mean antennas that sit together in some arrangement.
它们可以像这样成对排列,或者基本上可以是任意数量。
So they could sit like, it could be two of them like this, or it could be any number basically.
天线阵列本身可以具有任何几何形状。
The antenna array itself could have whatever geometry.
最常见的是天线排列成线性阵列,沿着一条直线均匀分布。
The most common is that the antenna sits in a linear array and then they simply space along a straight line.
通常情况下,间距是均匀的,而且通常间距为半波长,这背后有很好的原因。
It's very common that the spacing is uniform and it's also very common that the spacing is half a wavelength, for good reasons.
但还有许多其他类型的天线阵列。
But there are lots of other kinds of antenna arrays.
例如,可以构建平面阵列,这些天线通常排列在一个平面板上,间距均匀,但也不一定如此。
For example, one can build planar arrays and then they all sit on a planar slab typically with uniform spacing but not necessarily so.
这些天线安装在RAID上,协同工作,这一概念也是现代电信和无线标准物理层的基础,特别是在5G中,所使用的天线阵列技术被称为大规模MIMO,而埃米尔正是这一领域的先驱,并撰写了大量论文和教材。
These antennas sit on the RAID and they all cooperate and act together, which is a concept that also underpins much of the physical layer in modern telecom and wireless standards, specifically in five gs, where the antenna array technology that's used goes under the name massive MIMO, which Emil has been a pioneer within and also written a lot of papers and textbooks.
也许你可以接过来,向观众简单介绍一下大规模MIMO。
Maybe you want to take over and tell the audience a little bit Massive MIMO specifically.
没错,我可以讲,尽管我觉得你在这一领域比我还更像先驱。
Right, I can do that, even if I think you as much of a pioneer in that topic than I am.
但确实,与使用一个非常大的天线相比,使用天线阵列的一个优势是,除了占据一定面积以收集更多能量——通常面积越大,天线能收集的能量就越多——你还希望更细致地感知周围环境。
But yeah, I think one aspect to the whole thing with having antenna arrays as compared to having one very huge antenna is that in addition to filling a particular area so that you can collect more energy, typically the more area you have, the more energy you can collect with your antennas, you also want to be able to observe the world more carefully.
因此,在大规模MIMO系统中,我们的理念是拥有大量的天线。
So in massive MIMO systems, the idea is that we have an abundance of antennas.
与某些东西相比,我们拥有非常多的天线,在这种情况下,是相对于同时在同一频率下向不同方向发送的数据流或不同波束的数量而言的。
We have very many antennas compared to something, in this case compared to the number of data streams or different beams, signals we send at the same time, at the same frequency, in different directions.
因此,天线的数量应该大于用户数量。
So the number of antennas should be greater than the number of users.
这种设计既有理论上的原因,也有实际的原因。
And there are theoretical reasons for this and there are practical reasons for this kind of design.
但一种理解方式是,当你拥有一个天线阵列时,可以将信号发送到不同方向,这就像将信号瞄准棋盘上的不同格子。
But one way to view it is that when you have an antenna array, you can send signal different direction and that's like aiming signals towards different squares on a chessboard.
如果棋盘上你剩下的棋子数量相对于格子总数来说很少,那么如果你随机放置它们,彼此发生碰撞的风险就很小。
And then if the number of pieces that you have left on your chessboard is relatively small compared to the number of squares you have have there, then there is a small risk that if you just put them out randomly, some of them will collide with each other.
每颗棋子之间最好有足够的空间,这样更容易将聚焦的信号发送给它们。
There should be a good chance that there is some space between each piece, and that makes it easier for you to sort of send focused signals towards them.
这就是汤姆·罗塞塔在提出这一概念时所称的 Massive MIMO。
And this is what Tom Rosetta was calling massive MIMO when he sort of invented this idea.
如今在5G系统中,我们通常的基站配备约64根天线,同时最多服务8个用户。
And nowadays in five gs, we typically have base station with some 64 antennas and we have eight users at most that we are serving at the same time.
所以你的意思是,我们在这阵列中拥有这么多天线,它们可以协同工作,形成波束,从而将一个波束对准第一个用户,另一个波束对准第二个用户,依此类推。
So basically you're saying we got all these antennas in the array and they can act coherently together so as to form beams so that we can shoot one beam at the first user, a different beam at the second user and so on.
然后我们只需要确保——当然也希望运气不错——这些用户彼此不要离得太近,以免波束相互干扰。
And then we just gotta make sure and and with with some luck, hopefully, that these users aren't too close to each other so that the beams don't collide.
你刚才说有64根天线。
You said 64 antennas.
我以前以为主流厂商的产品线中,大规模MIMO设备用的是128根。
I used to think it was a 128 in the main vendor product line massive MIMO units.
到底是64根,还是别的数目?
Is that 64 or is it something else?
实际上,64是他们所拥有的最大天线数量。
Actually 64 is the maximum number of antennas that they have.
他们也有32根天线的产品。
There are 32 products as well.
还有一点需要注意的是,有时他们提到的是实际存在的单元数量。
Then one should keep in mind that sometimes they are mentioning the number of elements that exists.
比如你刚才提到的那些贴片单元,就属于这类组成部分。
These are, for example, the patches that you are mentioning.
所以我们所说的一根天线,实际上可能由多个单元组成,这些单元协同工作以形成特定的方向特性。
So one antenna, as we call them, might actually consist of multiple elements that just act together in order to form a particular directivity.
不过这就牵扯到更多天线设计层面的内容了。
But that's more going into the antenna design.
我明白了。
I see.
所以你的意思是,最终会有64路数字或射频流被数字化并进行处理,是这样吗?
So you're saying that there are like 64 digital or RF streams that eventually get digitized and then processed.
对的。
Right.
所以当我们这些通信或信号处理领域的人员讨论天线时,我们的视角是:在设计信号和接收信号的过程中,我们在计算机里能够调控哪些量。
So when we as communication or signal processing people are talking about antennas, we are viewing it from what is it we can control in our computer when we are designing the signals and when we are receiving the signals.
而在电磁层面实际发生的情况,可能会让硬件设计中的阵元数量有所增加。
And then what's actually going on in the electromagnetics might potentially expand the number of elements somewhere in your hardware design.
这仅仅是为了填满你可以放置元件的空间。
That's just in order to fill the space where you can put out your elements.
当然。
Sure.
但我觉得有趣的问题是,有多少个数字流可以同时输入到这个阵列中。
But I mean, I feel the interesting question is how many digital streams, how many parallel digital streams can get fed to the array simultaneously.
据我理解,这个产品中就是64个。
And that will be 64 then in this product, as I understand you.
当人们刚开始研究这种MIMO技术时,它被称为空分多址,因为不同用户位于不同的空间位置,同时进行通信;如今,人们常提到多用户MIMO,其中MIMO代表多输入(即一侧的天线)和多输出(即另一侧的用户)。
And when people started to work with this type of MIMO technology, it was either called space division multiple access because you were having different users at different spatial locations and certain at the same time, nowadays people often talk about multi user MIMO, where MIMO stands for this multiple input that is the antennas on one side and multiple outputs that are the users on the other side.
在最初,人们认为,好吧,你有一定数量的天线。
And yeah, in the beginning, people were thinking that, okay, you have a certain number of antennas.
正如你所说,数字流的数量就是你能服务的最大用户数,等于天线的数量。
This is the number of digital streams, as you were saying, the maximum number of users you could serve is equal to that number of antennas.
当然,你希望尽可能多地发送信号。
And you of course want to send as many signals as you could.
从理论上讲,这确实是一个极限。
And in theory, that is kind of limit.
但事实上,要发送与天线数量相等的数字流非常困难,因为这样所有信号都会相互干扰,很难实现。
But then it turned out that it is in practice very hard to send as many digital streams as you have antennas because then everything will collide and it will be very hard to build this.
因此,托马斯·罗塞塔在2010年左右提出了大规模MIMO系统,其思路是构建一个系统,发送的数流少于天线数量,但依靠天线的冗余来实现这一目标。
This is why Tom Rosetta was coming up in around 2010 with his massive MIMO setup, when you are building the whole system in order to send fewer data streams than you have antennas, but and have this abundance of antennas to achieve this.
对。
Right.
当然。
Sure.
所以,这里的直觉应该很清楚,对吧?
So I mean, the intuition there should be clear, right?
你希望实际形成的波束远少于天线数量吗?
Do you want a lot more antennas than actual beams that you form?
因为如果你形成太多波束,它们相互冲突的可能性就会增加。
Because if you form too many beams, then the likelihood that some of them will collide goes up.
64根天线,你刚才说能同时形成八个波束?
That 64 antennas and did you say eight simultaneous beams that you could form?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是,64根听起来并不多。
I mean 64 doesn't sound that much to me.
我原本以为至少要有几百根,但也许未来我们会达到那个水平。
I would expect at least a few 100, but maybe in the future we will be getting that.
所以现在有了大规模MIMO技术,其理念是拥有比当前实际发射的波束多得多的天线单元。
So now with with massive MIMO technology, the idea is to have a lot more of antenna elements than beams that you actually shoot at the given time.
但你还需要知道这些波束应该朝哪个方向发射。
But you also need to know in what directions to shoot these beams.
在通信理论中,这被称为获取信道状态信息。
And that's what in comm theory we call having channel state information.
对我来说,真正让大规模MIMO如此出色的原因是,可以通过利用电磁互易性来获取这种信道状态信息,让每个终端都发送一个导频信号。
And to me, really what makes massive MIMO work so wonderfully is that this channel state information can be obtained by exploiting electromagnetic reciprocity so that each and every terminal sends a pilot waveform.
这个导频信号由阵列中的每个天线接收。
This pilot waveform is received at the array by each one of the antennas.
然后每个天线估计终端的信道冲激响应。
Then each one of the antennas estimates the channel impulse response terminal.
通过互易性,我们知道这个响应在上行和下行链路中是相同的。
Then by reciprocity we know that this response is the same in both directions to the same on uplink and on downlink.
然后可以利用这些信息来计算如何在下行链路中发射这些波束。
They can be used then to compute how to shoot these beams on the downlink.
是的。
Yes.
所以,你把大规模MIMO和这种互易性方法联系在一起,对吧?
So Yeah, so you associate massive MIMO with this reciprocity approach, right?
当然,100%。
Oh, 100%.
我的意思是,对我来说,大规模MIMO意味着两件事。
I mean, to me massive MIMO means two things.
第一,服务天线数量过剩。
Number one, an excess of service antennas.
因此,基站的天线数量大约是同时发射波束数量的五倍甚至十倍。
So on the order of five or maybe 10 times as many antennas at the base station as you shoot beams that you shoot simultaneously.
第二,利用互易性获取信道状态信息。
And number two, reciprocity to get channel state information.
对。
Right.
我认为这确实是构建系统的理想方式。
And I think this is certainly the ideal way of building things.
但也存在一些MIMO系统工作在无法使用你所描述的互易性方法的场景中。
Then there are MIMO systems operating in situations where you can't use reciprocity methods that you were describing.
其中一个具体原因可能是,你在向下传输给用户时使用一个频段,而在用户向上发送到基站时使用另一个频段。
And one particular reason for this might be that you have one frequency band when you're transmitting down to the users and one other frequency band where you are transmitted from the users up to the base station.
因此,你无法真正利用互易性。
So then you can't really utilize reciprocity.
不,没错。
No, that's right.
所以你是说TDD操作?
So you mean FTD operation?
我的意思是,
I mean,
我刚才说的互易性当然主要适用于TDD操作,即在时间上复用上行和下行链路。
what I said about reciprocity of course applies mainly to TDD operation where you duplex uplink and downlink over time.
当然,但在FDD中,情况就有点不同了。
Sure, but in FDD the story is a little different.
互易性不成立,因此需要其他技术来获取信道状态信息。
Reciprocity doesn't hold, so other techniques are needed to get this chance that information.
是的,当有很多用户在城市等复杂区域快速移动时,通信信道会迅速变化,而在无法使用互易性的系统中处理这种情况会非常困难。
Yeah, and then it will be a difficulty to have a lot of users that are moving around quickly in a complicated part of the world, in the city, for example, where there are very quick variations in the communication channels, and do this in a system where you can't use reciprocity.
因为,如果要在这些场景中工作,通常需要系统更简单一些,比如用户移动速度不快,这样就有更多时间来估算信道,或者环境具有某些简单特性,比如存在直视路径(LOS)信道,基站能直接看到用户,那么信道在频域上的变化就不会那么快。
Because, yeah, if you wanted to work in those situations, typically you need something to be a little bit simpler, such that people are not moving very quickly, so you have more time to figure out the channels or that the environment have some simple features such as you have a so called line of sight channel where the base station sees the user directly and then the channel is not varying as quickly over the frequency domain.
没错。
That's right.
我的意思是,当然。
I mean, sure.
我的意思是,如果你的所有用户都在视距范围内,原则上只需要
I mean, you got line of sight to all your users, then in principle it'd
估计角度,也许还有仰角,就能确定用户的位置,这就够了。
be enough to estimate the angle, maybe the elevation and estimate to the users, and that would be it.
我的意思是,你不需要从阵列中的每个天线单元获取完整的冲激响应。
I mean, you wouldn't need the complete impulse response from every antenna element in the array.
可能还有其他方法可以替代互易性来获取这些信道状态信息。
There might be other ways that could compete with reciprocity to get this channel state information.
我想和你聊聊埃米尔,关于天线阵列本身,它的样子,特别是它的拓扑结构,以及如何在阵列中布置天线。
Want to talk to you Emil about the antenna array itself, and what it looks like, and specifically its topology, and how to place the antennas within the array.
因为据我了解,主流5G设备供应商的主要5G产品中,这些面板都是矩形面板,上面均匀分布着小型贴片天线。
Because to my understanding in the main five gs products from the leading five gs equipment vendors, these panels are all like rectangular panels with small patch antennas that sit uniformly spaced on the grid.
你最近发表了一篇题为《从天线富足到天线智能:六代Gigantic MIMO系统》的论文。
And you have recently published a paper entitled From antenna abundance to antenna intelligence in six gs Gigantic MIMO systems.
在这篇论文中,你探讨并质疑了天线在面板上均匀分布在矩形网格中的这一设计假设。
Where you explore or really question this design assumption, question this design concept where antennas sit uniformly spaced in a rectangular grid on a panel.
那么,我们为什么要采取其他方式呢?
So why would we want to do anything else?
没错,这是个好问题。
Right, that's a good question.
我们的出发点其实是你之前提到的:为什么我们的系统中不使用更多的天线?
And the starting point was really what you alluded to earlier that why don't we have more antennas in our systems?
为什么我们不使用数百根天线?
Why don't we have hundreds of antennas?
如果我们回溯一下历史,在四代系统中,通常只有两到四根天线。
And if we look back a bit in time, then in the four gs system, there were typically two to four antennas.
而现在,五代系统中已经有了32根或64根天线。
And now we have 32 or 64 antennas in five gs.
如果我们继续以类似的方式扩展,下一代系统中将会有数百根天线。
And if we continue scaling in similar manners, we will have hundreds of antennas in the next generations.
但增加这些额外天线的原因是什么?
But what is the reason for adding these extra antennas?
这是因为你想发射更多的波束,从而同时服务更多用户。
Well, it is because you want to shoot more beams so we can serve more use at the same time.
但如果我们拥有的天线数量是所发射波束的四到八倍,那么为了服务更多用户,所需的天线数量会迅速增长。
But if we then have some four or eight times more antennas than we are sending beams, then the number of antennas that we need is growing very rapidly with the number of use we want to serve.
于是我开始思考,我们是否可以找到一种方法,在未来系统中依然能服务更多用户,但不需要那么多天线,也不必让天线数量增长得那么快,从而保持天线与波束数量之间四倍、八倍、十倍的比例关系。
And I started to think about, could we do something where we could still serve more antennas in future systems, but maybe not need as many as or scale the antennas as quickly so that we keep this kind of four, eight, 10 times more antennas than users.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是,如果我们希望同时发射更多波束,就需要更多天线来维持大规模MIMO系统中天线数量与波束数量之间的比例。
I mean, totally, if we want to shoot more beams simultaneously, we want more antennas to maintain this massive MIMO ratio between number of antennas and number of beams that we shoot.
但难道不是也因为我们需要更多天线来获得更好的链路预算吗?
But isn't it always also that we want more antennas to get a better link budget?
因为上行链路上的天线越多,就会吸收越多的功率。
Because the more antennas on uplink, the more power it will soak up.
在下行链路上,天线越多,就能形成越尖锐的波束,从而获得更好的链路预算或更高的信噪比。
On downlink, the more antennas, the sharper beam we can form, and the better link budget we can get or the better SNR.
所以这里增加天线数量确实有两个原因。
So there are really two reasons to increase the number itself here.
对。
Right.
这当然是对的。
That's certainly the case.
而且通常情况下,对于发送下行信号的基站,法规会限制特定方向(比如天线阵列垂直指向的主方向)上的信号强度上限。
And it's often so also that a base station that is transmitting the downlink, there is a regulation on how strong is the signal allowed to be in a particular direction, which is like the main direction pointing perpendicularly from your antenna array.
在构建天线阵列时,你需要确保能够达到最大允许值,以便为系统提供最远的覆盖范围。
And when you're building your array, you want to make sure that you can reach the maximum value in order to provide the longest coverage in your system.
但决定这个最大值的因素有很多。
But there is a number of different factors that is determining that maximum value.
这是你拥有的总发射功率。
It is the total transmit power you have.
这是你所使用的天线数量。
It is the number of antennas that you're using.
还有各个天线的增益和方向性。
And it's the sort of gain, the directivity on the individual antennas.
所以如果我们稍微减少天线数量,就需要通过增加总功率,或者调整天线增益来补偿。
So if we are cutting down on the number of antennas a little bit, then we will have to compensate by increasing the power in total or, yeah, just play with gain of the antenna.
因此,有多种方法可以维持链路预算。
So there are ways of maintaining the link budget.
是的,当然。
Yeah, sure.
当然,这种相互影响存在。
Of course, that sort of interplay there.
但无论如何,让我们聚焦于天线阵列本身的拓扑结构。
But at any rate, let's focus on the topology of the array itself.
也许我们先从基础开始。
And maybe to start with, let's get back to basics.
如果我们构建一个天线阵列,比如说它可以
If we build an antenna array, let's say it could
可以是任意形式,可以是平面的,可以是线性的,也可以是其他任何形式。
be whatever, could be a planar, could be a linear, could be anything.
假设它是一个线性阵列。
Let's say it's a linear array.
天线的位置真的有影响吗?
Does it really matter where the antennas are located?
对于给定的孔径,比如说我能够负担一个半米长的孔径,并且可以使用10个天线。
So for a given aperture, so let's say I can afford an aperture of whatever, half a meter long, and I can afford 10 antennas, let's say.
这些天线的放置位置真的重要吗?
Does it really matter where I place these antennas?
我的意思是,传统观点认为它们应该间隔半个波长。
I mean, conventional wisdom is that they should be spaced half a wavelength apart.
但这有关系吗?
But does this matter?
它们可以更稀疏、更密集,或者随机分布吗?
Could it be, like, spaced more sparsely or more densely or just randomly?
还是说这会产生影响?
Or does this make a difference?
对。
Right.
这取决于你希望通过这个天线阵列实现什么目标。
So it depends on what you want to achieve with this antenna array.
如果我们从最基本的功能开始,你希望从这个天线阵列向某个位置的用户发送信号。
So if we start from the most basic feature, you want to transmit from this antenna array to one user located somewhere.
那么你首先要确保天线具有一定的方向性,即在某些方向上比其他方向更优先。
Then the first thing you want to make sure is that your antennas are sort of they typically have some directivity, some directions that it prefers compared to others.
然后你希望将这种方向性大致对准用户,避免它们朝向错误的方向。
And then you want to aim that directivity roughly towards the user so they don't look away.
然后,你需要做的是,从每个天线发射相同的信号,但对它们进行不同的延迟或相位偏移,使得这些信号在到达接收端时能够同相叠加。
And then what you want to do is that the signal from each of the antennas, you transmit the same signal, but you delay them or phase shift them differently so that they are reaching the receiver in phase with each other.
所以它们在发射时不需要同相,只需要在接收时同相即可。
So they don't need to be in phase when it transmitted, it should be in phase when received.
但除此之外,只要你只是希望信号能到达用户,天线的排列方式可以是任意的。
But apart from that, you can have any arrangement of the antennas when you only want them to be reaching the user.
这基本上就是我们所说的波束成形。
And this is basically what we call beamforming.
我们发送相同的信号,但施加不同的相位偏移,它们叠加在一起,从而在接收端方向上形成一个波束。
We send the same signal with different phase shifts, they add up, and that is basically creating a beam over there aiming towards the receiver.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
所以在你被允许放置天线的这个区域内,天线的布局方式其实并不重要。
So that's a situation where it really doesn't matter how you put out the antennas in this area where you're allowed to have them.
当然。
Sure.
因为说到底,波束成形的关键在于接收端的信噪比和链路预算,而这仅取决于我们拥有的天线数量,因为它们会以正确的相位协同叠加,幅度因此相加。
Because I mean, with beamforming, basically what matters is the signal to noise ratio at the receiver, the link budget to the receiver, and that will be dependent only upon the number of antennas that we have, because they all act coherently together, so the amplitudes add up with a proper phase.
但在实际应用中,这里还需要考虑其他因素。
Now in practice, there will be other considerations also to make here.
首先,当然是元件之间的互耦。
One, of course, will be mutual coupling among the elements.
你大概不希望
You probably don't want
通常来说,把天线元件放置得比半波长更近。
to put antenna elements closer than half a wavelength, generally speaking.
是的,没错。
Yeah, exactly.
所以这就是为什么半波长这个说法的由来:如果你把它们放得太近,它们就会开始强烈地相互产生电磁干扰。
So that is one reason where this half a wavelength thing comes from, that if you put them close to each other, they start to electromagnetically interact a lot with each other.
然后,我整个例子中关于信号可以被传输并直接相加的假设可能就不成立了。
And then it might be that yeah, my whole example of sort of the signals can transmitted and just added up.
它们彼此之间是相对独立的。
They're acting sort of independent of each other.
这种假设就会被打破。
That kind of assumption breaks.
而这种情况通常会更糟,但也可能更好。
And then it's typically worse, but it could be better.
但我们先不深入讨论耦合的细节,只要保持间距大于半波长即可。
But let's not go into the details on on the coupling, but stay away so you are further away than half a wavelength.
是的,如果它们之间的距离更远,或者至少保持半波长的间距,那么耦合就是可控的,至少不会对天线阵列的性能造成不利影响。
Yeah, so if they sit further away or at least half a wavelength apart, then coupling is manageable and at least not a detrimental factor to the array performance.
那么,为什么通常天线阵列都采用半波长的间距呢?
So how is it then that typically arrays are built with half a wavelength of spacing?
我的意思是,我们刚刚已经达成共识,从链路预算或接收端信噪比的角度来看,它们的摆放位置其实并不重要。
I mean we just agreed that from a link budget perspective or from an SNR at the receiver point of view, it doesn't matter where they are placed.
所以
So
那么,为什么当今的典型设计都基于半波长或λ/2的间距呢?
how is it then that typical designs of today are built upon a lambda half or half wavelength spacing.
对。
Right.
这涉及到当你同时处理多个用户或多个数据信号时的其他考量。
So this has to do with additional considerations that comes if you have more than one user or more than one data signal that you would like to consider at the same time.
当一个信号到来时,最简单的方式是认为它从某个特定角度射向你的天线阵列,以波前的形式扫过阵列,然后以略微不同的延迟到达各个天线。
So when a signal, it's easiest to think about it, that it comes from a particular angle towards your antenna array, then it arrives as a wavefront that is sort of sweeping over your antenna array, and then it will hit the different antennas with a little bit different delays.
你会在信号的相位差中观察到这一点。
And you will see this in terms of different phase shift in your signals.
如果你希望天线阵列能够区分信号来自哪个方向,或者如何到达你这里,那么关键在于你接收到的是一个连续波,而天线本质上是对这个波进行采样。
And then if you want your antenna array to be able to distinguish between in which directions or how does the signal arrive to you, then it comes down that you're actually having a continuous wave that arrives to you and you have antennas that basically take samples from this.
于是,可以应用奈奎斯特-香农采样定理的经典理论,最终会得出结论:正是λ/2的间距是最优的,因为这样能从信号中获取最多的信息。
And then one could apply classical things from the Nyquist Shannon sampling theorem, and that will eventually come to the conclusion that exactly lambda over two spacing is the best spacing there because then you're sampling your signals so that you the most amount of information out of them.
我明白了,我明白了。
I see, I see.
但现在这假设了一个直视信道,对吧?
But now this assumes a line of sight channel, no?
你刚才的论证假设了用户之间是直视信道。
This argument that you just made assumes a line of sight channel to the users.
这样说准确吗?
Is that accurate to say?
是的,完全正确。
Yes, exactly.
在这种情况下,我讨论的是从不同角度入射的多个平面波,你希望区分它们。
So in that case, I was discussing having some different plane waves coming in from different angles and you want to distinguish between them.
这可能是直视信道,信号从不同方向传来;也可能是一个多径环境,每个平面波都从不同方向入射。
So that could be a line of sight channels, signals coming from different It could potentially be a multipath environment where each plane wave comes in from a different direction as well.
但这种论证可以扩展到多径环境。
But one can extend this kind of argument to a multipath environment.
教科书中最常考虑的情况是我们所说的各向同性散射。
And the most commonly considered situation in textbooks is what we call isotropic scattering.
其理念是用户发送信号后,信号会从大量不同物体上反射,使得信号从各个角度到达天线阵列的概率均等。
The idea is that the user sends a signal and then it bounces on a big variety of objects so that the signal arrives to the antenna array from all angles equally likely.
因此,这只是从不同方向来的平面波的随机组合。
So, it's just a random arrangement of plane waves coming from these different directions.
然后,典型的教科书示例会进一步指出,不同位置的信道特性之间会存在某种数学或统计相关性。
And then the typical textbooks examples then reaches the point that you will have some mathematical or statistical correlation between how the channel looks like at different points.
但如果你将天线恰好放置在半波长的距离上,这种相关性就会为零。
But if you put the antennas exactly half a wavelength apart, that correlation will be zero.
否则,这种相关性被称为sinc函数,它会随着距离增大而减小,这也是一个论点,对的。
And otherwise the correlation is called sinc function is becoming And smaller with that is also an argument, yeah.
是的,我明白了。
Yeah, I see.
所以你的意思是,如果存在各向同性散射,那么衰落系数将会是随机的。
So you're suggesting that if you got an isotropic scattering, then the fading coefficient will be random.
如果你把天线放在相距半波长的两个不同位置上测量衰落系数,那么衰落将是不相关的。
And if you put the antennas, if you measure the fading coefficient at two different points that are half a wavelength apart, then the fading will be uncorrelated.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这听起来是个不错的结果。
So that sounds like a good thing.
我的意思是,到目前为止,我们关心的是不相关的衰落。
I mean, and so far we care about uncorrelated fading.
对。
Yeah.
我意思是,之所以叫衰落,是因为信号质量会上下波动,当然,上升是好事。
And I mean, it's called fading because the signal quality goes up and down, and it's of course good if it goes up.
但糟糕的情况是它下降时,因此为了降低所有天线同时发生这种下降的风险,你希望不同天线上的衰落是不相关或独立的。
But the bad thing is when it fades down, and therefore to minimize the risk that that happens over all of the antennas simultaneously, then you won't like to have this uncorrelated or independent fading on different
最大化阵列的分集增益,或最大化MIMO处理中观察到的信道硬化效果。
maximize the diversity gain of the array or maximize the channel hardening that you see in the MIMO processing.
我的意思是,这变成了一个相当复杂的技術争论,但听起来似乎有一些根本性的原因,使得天线阵列中采用半波长间距是有益的。
I mean this became a rather intricate technical argument, but it sounds like there are some fundamental reasons for why a half a wavelength spacing is good to have in an antenna array.
是的。
Yeah.
无论传播环境如何,因为你提到了视距传播,也提到了各向同性散射,这在某种程度上是视距传播的对立面。
More or less irrespective of the propagation environment, because you mentioned both line of sight here, then you mentioned isotropic scattering which is really the opposite of line of sight in a way.
所以,如果结论是半波长间距实际上非常好,甚至是最优的,那么在我看来,当前的设计实际上已经非常好了。
So now if that's the conclusion that half a wavelength spacing is actually quite good, if not optimal, then it sounds to me that current designs are actually very good.
那么你的新论文是关于什么的呢?
So what is your new paper about that?
对。
Yes.
听起来当前的设计确实很好,因为在这两种非常典型的教科书式例子中,这确实是最佳选择。
It sounds very much as the current designs are good because in these two very textbook like examples, it is the best thing you can do.
因此,人们才一直被这样教导并深信不疑。
So, that's why people have been taught and believed in this.
但问题是,我们在部署基站时所遇到的真实环境,并不完全符合这些不同的例子。
But the thing is that the real environments that we come across when we are deploying our base stations are not exactly matches with any of these different examples.
所以,如果你有直视路径的用户,通常基站是部署在屋顶或塔上,其目的并不是覆盖整个世界,而是覆盖一个约120度的有限区域,也就是世界三分之一的水平范围。
So, if you have line of sight users, it's typically so that a base station is deployed on a rooftop or tower and it's not meant to cover the entire world, but you have a limited sector of some 120 degree where the users are going to be, so one third of the world, and that is horizontally.
而在垂直方向上,所有用户都位于基站下方。
And vertically, all the users are below the base station.
你通常不会有用户在基站上方,这也改变了情况。
You typically don't have users above it, so that is also changing things.
至于多径效应,由于基站通常设置在较高的位置,多径往往发生在用户周围或环境中的一些主要物体上。
And when it comes to the multipaths, since you place your base stations at elevated locations, often the multipaths happens around the user or at some major objects in the environment.
当信号朝基站传播时,并不是从所有角度均匀到达。
And when the signal are arriving towards the base station, it doesn't come uniformly from all angles.
它只从特定的一组角度到达。
It comes from a particular set of angles.
这就形成了一种我们可以利用的结构,从而设计出更能提取这些特定特征的天线阵列。
And this is creating some structure that we can utilize and build arrays that are better at extracting that specific characteristics.
但这确实很有趣。
But that's quite interesting indeed.
我的意思是,你是在暗示基于半波长的天线阵列的这种所谓的最优性或近最优性,只在某些视距场景下成立,或在各向同性散射条件下成立,但现实中我们两者都不具备。
Mean, are you suggesting that this air quotes optimality or near optimality of half wavelength based arrays, well that holds for certain line of sight scenarios, it holds for isotropic scattering, but in practice we have neither of them.
因此,实际上有机会对天线阵列内部的间距进行优化。
And then there is an opportunity to actually optimize the spacing within the array itself.
是的,正是如此。
Yes, exactly.
如果沿用我们之前两个例子中所采用的相同理论方法,但将其应用到这种新情境中,结论将是:为了达到最优,现在你希望天线之间的距离更远一些,用同样的逻辑来推导。
And if one follows the same kind of theoretical practices that we did with those two examples before, but apply to this new situation, the conclusion will be that now you would like the antennas to be further apart, to be optimal using the same kind of arguments.
一旦你决定,好吧,我现在把天线间距设为一个波长,而不是半波长之类的,那么你也就有了不再均匀分布天线的可能性。
And as soon as you say, Okay, now I will put my antennas maybe one wavelength apart instead of half a wavelength apart or something like that, then you also have the possibility of not putting them out uniformly anymore.
因为我们之前说过,你绝不希望间距小于半波长,否则会产生很强的耦合效应。
Because we were saying you never want to be shorter than half a wavelength because then you get a lot of coupling effects.
但如果你能调整天线位置,采用某种非对称布局,同时又避免了互耦问题,为什么不也将其作为设计维度之一呢?
But if you can move them around and have something more asymmetric without running into that mutual coupling problem, why not use that as a design dimension as well?
不,完全正确。
No, absolutely.
百分之百,我的意思是。
100%, I mean.
但即便如此,我认为这可能违背了许多人的直觉,包括我自己,因为如果你有一个孔径,比如说,出于某种原因,我可以负担得起半米的孔径。
But still, I think this might speak against the intuition of a lot of people, including myself, because somehow if you got an aperture, let's say I got I can afford an aperture of half a meter, let's say, for whatever reasons.
可能是由于物理空间、美学原因或其他因素。
Could be that just because of physical space or aesthetic reasons or something else then.
难道我不想尽可能多地在孔径内布置天线吗?
Wouldn't I wanna fill this aperture with as many antennas as possible.
而既然我们知道,不希望把天线放得比半波长更近,但我仍然希望尽可能填满整个孔径。
And then since we know that, we don't want to put antennas closer than half a wavelength together, but I still want to fill the aperture as much as possible.
因此,这意味着要尽可能多地排列天线。
And from that it would follow that packing as many as possible.
也就是说,半波长的间距。
That means half a wavelength spacing.
对,这说得通
Yeah, that makes a
很有道理。
lot of sense.
但问题在于,这么做还会牵扯到成本、重量、体积这些相关的问题。
But the problem is that it is also associated with cost and weight and bulkiness and things like that.
你之前还提到,实际上5G基站可能会配备128个阵列单元,但我们只会说它有64或32根天线。
So you were mentioning earlier that actually a five gs base station might have 128 elements, but we only say that it has 64 or 32 antennas.
而正是出于这个原因,如果你加装足够多的无线电硬件,以便单独控制每一个单元,那整个设备的成本、重量和体积都会增加。
And that is exactly for this reason that if you would put in enough radio hardware so you can control every element individually, you would increase the cost and the weight and bulkiness of the whole thing.
所以业内已经开始研究如何在这些方面做出恰当的权衡了。
So they have already started to play with the right kind of trade offs there.
那我之前就在想,在6G系统里,如果只是单纯扩容,把天线数量增加个四五倍,那设备的体积也会跟着变大。
And now I was thinking about in a six gs system, if you would just scale things up and have some four, five, six times more antennas, then the bulkiness will grow as well.
或许我们可以利用天线阵列的这种非均匀排布,用更少的天线实现相近的性能,比如说把天线的使用量从4到8个缩减到2个左右。
And maybe we could utilize this non uniformity in the arrays so that we can get similar performance, but with a little bit fewer antennas, maybe cut down on this antenna user from four or eight to two or something like that.
是的,但这还挺酷的。
Yeah, but it's kind of cool.
现在真正的问题是:给定一个孔径尺寸、系统的可接受成本以及天线数量的上限或最大值,如何在该孔径内最佳地布置这些天线?
It's really the design problem now is that, okay, given an aperture size and given a permissible cost of the system and given a permissible or maximum number of antennas, what is the best way to place them within this aperture?
而半波长间距甚至可能不可行,因为我们没有足够的天线来实现半波长间距。
And then lambda half spacing might not even be an option because we don't have enough antennas to put them with lambda half spacing.
所以我们不得不让天线间距更稀疏,或者非均匀、随机地布置等等。
So we got to put them either more sparsely apart or non uniformly or randomly or something.
那么你是在说,这实际上是一个我们可以解决的优化问题。
Then you're suggesting that here is actually an optimization problem that we can solve.
没错。
Exactly.
甚至对于传播环境也是如此。
Even for propagation environment.
那我们就往这个方向深入探讨吧。
So let's go there.
如果我们这样做,将天线非均匀地分布在孔径上,波束模式会是什么样子?
Now if we do this, so we put the antennas non uniformly over an aperture, what are the beam patterns going to look like?
对。
Right.
如果有人打开一本教科书,说我们来构建一个天线间距大于半波长的均匀阵列,会发生什么?
So if one opens a textbook and say, let's build a uniform array, but with an antenna spacing that is larger than half a wavelength, what is going to happen?
总的孔径长度,也就是最外侧天线之间的距离,决定了信号的窄度。
Well, the total aperture length, so distance between the outermost antennas, that is determining how narrow the signal is going to be.
所以当你发射波束时,它可能呈圆锥形,而这个形状的半径由阵列的长度决定。
So you shoot the beam, it has a perhaps cone like shape and the radius of that shape is determined by how long the array is.
阵列越长,波束就越窄。
So longer it is, the more narrow it becomes.
但因为你仍然要发送总功率,所以能量必须有个去处。
But since you still have a total amount of transmit power that you're sending out, then it needs to go somewhere.
所以如果你更精确地将波束对准接收器,就会有一些泄漏方向,这些方向也会呈现出某种形状。
So if you aim it in a more sharp way towards your receiver, then there will also be some leakage directions, and that one is having some kind of shape.
信号越窄,尤其是在稀疏阵列且间距大于半波长时,这些被称为旁瓣的其他方向上的旁瓣就会变得更大,并且还可能出现栅瓣现象。
And the more narrow the signal is, the more in particular when you have a sparse array, larger than lambda over two spacings, the side lobes as these other directions are called, becomes larger and there is a concept of grating lobes that could also happen.
这些旁瓣与你希望发射信号的方向难以区分。
These are side lobes that are indistinguishable from the direction where you would like to transmit.
所以你朝一个方向发射,却在另一个方向上也产生了同样强度的信号。
So you send in one direction and then you have an equally strong signal going in another direction.
是的。
Sure.
所以你基本上是说,如果我们从半波长间距的均匀线性阵列开始,然后像拉伸孔径一样扩大它。
So basically what you're saying is that fundamentally, let's say that we start with half and half a wavelength spaced uniform linear array, and then we of like we stretch the aperture.
好的。
Okay.
当然,我们无法保持天线之间的间距,但我们会拉伸孔径,然后将天线大致随机地放置在这个扩展后的孔径内。
And then of course we can't maintain the spacing between the antennas, but we stretch the aperture, and then we just place the antennas a bit kind of at random within that aperture that we have gotten.
一般来说,此时的间距会大于半波长。
In general then the spacing will be larger than half a wavelength.
那么会发生的是,你的波束成形中的主瓣幅度不会改变,因为它始终等于你的M2功率。
Then what will happen is that, well, the main lobe in your beamforming, the magnitude of the main lobe will not change, because it's always equal to your M2 in power.
但这个主瓣会变窄,因为孔径变大了。
But that main lobe will get narrower, because the aperture is larger.
但为此你也会产生旁瓣,即指向其他随机方向的栅瓣,这可能会很糟糕,因为可能有某个人无意中被你干扰了。
But to pay for that you also get side lobes, the grading lobes that point in other random directions, which could be bad of course because there could be somebody out there whom you're shooting interference at inadvertently.
但这真的重要吗?
But does this really matter?
我的意思是,我们在栅瓣问题上纠结,是因为在所有的MIMO理论中,我们知道使用最大比波束成形时,只有天线数量和路径损耗才重要。
I mean, we're grading lobes because in all the MIMO theory we know that with, let's say, maximum radio beamforming, then it's only the number of antennas and the path loss that matters.
对于多用户波束成形,我们通常只是用随机统计信道模型来评估性能。
For multiuser beamforming, a lot of times we just evaluate performance on random statistical channel models.
这些栅瓣在实际中会产生影响吗?
Will these grating lobes make a difference in practice?
对。
Right.
我以为其实不会。
I thought not really.
这当然取决于你所处的传播环境和具体情况。
It certainly depends on what kind of propagation environment you have and the situation there.
所以你可能会遇到一种不幸的情况,栅瓣恰好朝向另一个用户的位置,从而造成大量干扰。
So you could be in an unlucky situation where the grating lobe creates a lot of interference aiming accidentally exactly towards where another user is located.
然后你就面临一个问题:你该怎么办?
And then you come into a situation where what what should you do?
你要么不向目标用户发送太多信号,要么造成大量干扰。
Either you don't transmit very much to your intended user or you create a lot of interference.
你该如何应对这类情况?
How do you deal with those kinds of situations?
我认为在单小区场景中,只有一个基站和几个用户时,你仍然可以处理干扰问题。
And I would say that in a single cell situation, you only have one base station and a couple of users, you can still deal with interference.
你对一切都有控制权。
You are in control of everything.
你可以调整波束,以应对其中一些问题。
You can tune your beams so that you might be dealing with some of these issues.
但人们通常在天线阵列设计中关注栅瓣,因为这可能会对其他小区或周围系统造成干扰,或者如果你正在设计也将用于到达角估计的阵列,你希望定位信号的来源,以帮助谷歌地图或其他应用告诉你用户的位置,那么如果信号看起来既可能是这个方向,也可能是另一个方向,就会出现问题。
But people are usually concerned with grating lobes in array design because it is either bad for sort of interference that you're hitting some other cells or other systems around, or if you are building arrays that are also going to be used for so called angle of arrival estimation, you would like to localize from where did the signal come to aid some Google Maps or some other application to sort of tell you where is the user, then it's problematic if it's either this direction or it could have been this other direction that it looks the same.
这一切都归结为我们之前讨论过的采样定理。
And this all comes down to the sampling theorem that we talked about earlier.
熟悉这一点的人知道,如果在时间上采样过于稀疏,就会有多个信号看起来完全相同。
People who are familiar with that one knows that if you sample too sparsely in time, then there are multiple signals that looks the same.
它们彼此是混叠信号。
They are the aliases of each other.
如果在空间上采样间隔过远,也会发生同样的情况。
The same thing happens if you're sampling in space too far apart.
来自不同角度的信号,你实际上无法区分。
There are signals coming from different angles that you actually can't tell apart.
当然,关于到达角估计,我完全同意。
Sure, 100% on the angle of arrival estimation.
我的意思是,旁瓣会严重影响你的模糊函数,这可能会很糟糕。
I mean, having grading lobes racks your ambiguity function, that can be pretty bad.
但从通信的角度来看,结合空间复用和波束成形,我觉得这些旁瓣未必那么严重,因为虽然你会产生旁瓣,但同时也获得了更窄的主瓣,这意味着其他人非常接近你的目标用户并落入同一主瓣的可能性也会降低。
But from a communications perspective with spatial multiplexing and beamforming, it seems to me that these grating lobes aren't necessarily that much of a big deal because, I mean, you do get the grating lobes, but you also get a narrower main lobe, which means that the likelihood that somebody else is very close to your targeted user and would fall in the same main lobe, that chance also deduces.
所以这里存在一个复杂的权衡:你可能会在某些随机方向上造成一些干扰,但同时也显著减少了在目标用户附近方向上的干扰。
So there's a complicated trade off here between, you know, you might create some interference in some other random direction, but you're certainly also creating less interference in directions that are very close to where your targeted user lies.
对。
Right.
但接下来有趣的是,当你将天线阵列拉伸到某一特定长度时,决定主瓣有多窄、聚焦能力有多强的,是外侧天线之间的距离。
But here comes the interesting thing then, that when you have stretched your arrays out to a particular length, it is the distance between the outermost antennas that determines how narrow your main lobe, your focusing is.
但内部天线的确切位置也很重要。
But the exact location of the antennas at the inside matters as well.
它们会影响非主方向上的波束图案形态。
And they matter in terms of deciding how does the pattern look like in directions that are not the main direction.
因此,如果天线是均匀但稀疏部署的,就会产生旁瓣;但如果采用其他布局,信号图案就会有所不同。
So, if they are exactly uniformly but sparsely deployed, you get this grating But lobe if they have some other shape, you can get a different shape of the signals.
如果你以正确的方式调整天线的位置,可能会使主瓣以外的信号几乎均匀地分布在所有其他角度上,这对系统可能是有益的。
And if you are tuning the locations of the antennas in the right way, you might actually get that the signal that are not in the main lobe are spread almost uniformly over all of the other angles, and that can be beneficial for a system.
完全正确。
Totally.
我认为这是一个非常重要的观点,即主瓣的宽度主要由孔径的大小决定,也就是最左端和最右端天线之间的距离。
I think that's a very important point indeed that the width of the main lobe is chiefly determined by the extent of the aperture, so the distance between the leftmost and the rightmost antenna.
而栅瓣图案的出现则取决于位于最左端和最右端天线之间所有天线的排列方式。
Whereas the appearance of the grating lobe pattern will depend on the arrangement of all the antennas that lie in between the leftmost and the rightmost.
那么,这是缓解栅瓣的方法吗?
So is that the way to mitigate grading lobes?
既然栅瓣本身可能是个问题,那么缓解它们的方法是不是只是在孔径内随机放置天线?
Now insofar grading lobes are a problem to start with, is the way to mitigate them to just place the antennas randomly within within the aperture?
还是说有其他可以采取的措施?
Or is there something else that one could do?
你可以随机分布天线,这样就会产生一些不太可能具有特定栅瓣的其他模式。
So you could put them out randomly and then you get some other patterns that are unlikely to have specific grating lobes.
如果你将这个定义为一个与主瓣强度相同的旁瓣方向,那么这种情况很可能不会发生。
If you define this as a beam direction that is a side lobe and equally strong as your main lobe, well then that will most likely not happen.
但你实际上可以设计天线的位置并进一步优化它们。
But you can actually design the antenna locations and optimize them even further.
长期以来,人们在太空观测情境中一直研究这个问题。
And people have been studying this for a long time in space observation situations.
这是一种你部署大型天线对准天空的情况,你可能会在远离城市的区域找到几乎没有电磁干扰的地方。
So this is a situation where you put out big antennas that you aim towards the sky and you might find some area far from the cities where there will not be much electromagnetic interference from anything.
在部署设备所用的土地面积方面,你并没有受到太多限制。
You're not really constrained in terms of the land area where you can deploy things.
你只是受限于能部署多少天线。
You're just constrained about how many antennas you can put out there.
在那里,人们已经研究了五十多年,如何布置天线,以便能够观测到来自太空不同方向的信号,同时抑制旁瓣或栅瓣。
And there people started to analyze for more than fifty years how to position the antennas so that you could sort of see things coming from different directions in space, but still mitigating the side lobes or these grating lobes.
当然。
Sure.
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我的意思是,刚想说阵列拓扑的设计是一个非常古老的话题。
I mean, was just about to say that design of array topologies is a very old topic.
而也许对于6G系统来说,不同之处在于所使用的指标不同。
And maybe what makes it a little different here for the six gs systems is that the metrics are different.
我的意思是,优化阵列以实现大规模MIMO中的空间复用,与优化阵列用于射电天文学或探测来自太空的遥远恒星或辐射,是完全不同的事情。
I mean it's a different thing to optimize an array for spatial multiplexing in massive MIMO as compared to optimizing an array for radio astronomy or something where you're looking for like a distant star or some radiation from space.
那么,在6G MIMO背景下优化阵列拓扑时,你会推荐使用什么指标,或者你的论文中一直使用哪些指标?
So what metric would you recommend or what metrics have you been using in your papers for optimization of the array topology for six gs MIMO context?
对。
Right.
所以我们开始研究过去那些关于阵列设计的论文中人们所使用的指标,那些论文更多关注定位或感知。
So we started to look into what were the metrics people were considering in these older papers about array design, which were more about localization or sensing.
在这些研究中,他们主要关注从一个间距为半波长的天线阵列开始,然后有结构地移除一些天线,以消除他们所说的冗余。
And there, they were focusing a lot on sort of starting from an antenna array that had this land over two spacing and then taking out antennas and do it in a structured way to remove what they call redundancy.
理解这一点最简单的方式是,你家里有一把尺子,可以用来测量距离。
And the easiest way of thinking about this is that you have a ruler in your home that you can use to measure distances.
而你可以在每厘米或每英寸处看到标记。
And there you have markings every say centimeter or every inch.
因此,你会在零、一、二、三等位置有标记。
And so then you have a marker at zero, at one, at two, at three and so on.
这其中存在大量冗余,因为如果你要测量两厘米的距离,你可以在零和二之间、一和三之间、二和四之间等任意一对标记间测量。
And there is a lot of redundancy there because if you would like to measure something that is say two centimeters apart, you can measure between zero and two or between one and three or two and four and so on.
所以这些信息在其中反复出现。
So things are repeating there a lot.
原则上,你可以删除尺子上的一些标记,但仍能测量任意你想要的厘米距离。
In principle, you could delete some of the markings along the ruler and you would still be able to measure any centimeter distances that you like.
他们也使用了同样的原理来布置天线,删除那些冗余的天线。
And they use the same kind of principle to put out the antennas, delete some of them that were redundant.
这里的直观想法是,当信号从不同角度到达时,判断其来源角度的方法是比较一对天线上的信号,观察它们之间的相位差或延迟。
And here, the sort of intuition behind this is that when signal arrives from different angles, then the way of determining what angle it came from is to compare the signal at the pair of antennas and see how is the phase shift or delay between them there.
如果你有多个间距相同的天线,它们基本上提供的是冗余信息,因此可以删除其中一个。
And if you have multiple antennas that are at the same distance apart, they basically provide redundant information so you can delete one of them.
所以这就是他们构建这种最小冗余阵列的方式。
So that is how they they build this kind of minimum redundancy arrays.
当然。
Sure.
对我来说,这听起来像是,如果你有一个阵列,并想用它来确定某个目标的到达角,那么视角范围基本上由孔径长度决定,而模糊函数则由其他天线的位置决定。
To me, this sounds like if you got an array and you wanna use the array to determine the angle of arrival to some object, then the camera bound will essentially be determined by the length of the aperture, whereas the ambiguity function will be determined by, like, where the rest of the antennas are positioned.
而你希望将天线布置得使得每一对之间的距离都能被覆盖,正如你所说的那样。
And there you would like to position the antenna so that you can measure every, as you said, at every pairwise is represented.
是的。
Yeah.
但在设计用于6G的MIMO阵列时,是先从均匀网格开始再移除一些天线更好,还是直接说:只要天线间距至少为半个波长,就可以随意放置它们更好呢?
But now in the context of designing MIMO arrays for six gs, is it better than to start with a uniform grid and remove antennas?
我们干脆就随便放吧。
Or could it be better to just say, hey, we can place them anywhere, as long as they are at least half a wavelength apart.
我们干脆就随便放吧。
Let's just place them anywhere.
它们不一定非要位于这个名义上的均匀网格上。
They don't have to sit necessarily on this nominal uniform grid.
它们可以放在任何地方。
They could be anywhere.
超越这种基于网格的思维方式有什么好处吗?
Is there a benefit to going beyond kind of like grid based thinking
吗?
at all?
是的,这是个非常好的问题。
Yeah, that's an excellent question.
这正是我们之前在探索的。
And that was what we were exploring.
因此,在我们之前提到的论文中,我们考虑了两种方法:一种是从一个非常密集、大型的阵列开始,然后逐个移除天线,同时尽量保持性能。
So in the paper that we referred to earlier, we were considering both the approaches of sort of starting from a very dense, large array and then removing antennas one after the other, trying to maintain performance.
而在通信背景下,所谓性能是指:我们设定一个基站和一个传播环境,然后生成一万种不同的用户位置场景,并创建各自的信道条件。
And what performance meant in the communication context was that we said, here is my base station, here is my propagation environment, and let's generate 10,000 different situations where users are located there and create their channel conditions.
然后尝试优化我们的阵列,以提高用户可获得的平均数据速率。
And then trying to optimize our array for some performance there, as the average data rate that you can deliver to your users.
因此,我们既从网格方法入手,逐步移除天线,尽量保持尽可能高的平均数据速率,直到达到我们可接受的天线数量。
So then we did this both by sort of starting with the grid approach, taking out antennas, trying to maintain as large average data rate as possible until we came down to the number of antennas we could accept to have.
或者我们开发了一种称为预优化不规则阵列(PIA)的概念,即先确定我们希望在阵列中放置的天线数量。
Or we developed a concept that we call the pre optimized irregular arrays or PIA, where we put out the number of antennas that we wanted to have in the array.
然后我们在软件中移动它们,寻找最佳的放置位置。
And then we move them around in the software and try to figure out what were the right locations to place them at.
当你说到在软件中移动它们时,意思是它们可以任意放置,对吧?
When you say move them around in the software, you mean they could be arbitrarily placed, right?
不一定非得在均匀网格上。
Not necessarily on this uniform grid.
在这种情况下,根本没有网格位置。
So in that case, there were no grid location.
然后我们也在那里优化了平均吞吐率。
And then we optimized there also for the average churn rate.
可想而知,当你取消了天线必须排布在网格上的要求后,本应能取得更好的表现——毕竟我们是针对特定场景做的优化,但结果发现,脱离网格布局带来的增益非常小。
And as one could imagine, when you take away a requirement such as they need to lie on the grid, you can do a little bit better, because we were optimizing for a certain situation, but it turned out that the gains from leaving the grid was very small.
所以我觉得采用网格布局也是可行的。
So I think a grid placement also works out.
但话说回来,如果你本来就只是要规划出一个天线阵列,之后再去现场布置天线,无论是让工作人员把它们安在网格点位上,还是不按网格、用其他方式测量后摆放,
On the other hand, if you're going to anyway just compute an antenna array and then go out there and put them out and let someone place them there on the grid somewhere or not on the grid, but just measuring it with some other methods.
那它到底是不是网格布局其实根本无所谓。
It doesn't really matter if it's a grid or not.
好的,我明白。
No, sure.
没准如果它们的位置至少能适配均匀网格的话,布局看上去还会更整齐呢。
It might even it might look nicer if they are at least I mean, that the locations fit on a uniform grid.
谁知道呢。
Who knows?
对。
Yeah.
但你之前说,这个优化是针对某种特定的传播环境进行的吗?
But so did you say that you optimized this for like some specific propagation environment?
你们是基于实测的信道数据开始的吗?
Did you have measured channels that you started off with?
还是你们是如何评估它们的性能的?
Or how did you evaluate performance in them?
因为在我看来,这里的结论可能非常依赖于我们所遇到的具体场景。
Because it seems to me that the conclusions here might be a lot dependent upon the specific scenario that we encounter.
是的。
Yes.
所以我当时是把这当作一种站点特定的优化来处理的。
So I were approaching this as if it was like a site specific optimization.
假设你是一家电信运营商,我决定在这里部署我的基站,它应该是什么形状?
So you are telecom operator, I decide, here I would like to put my base station, what shape should it have?
这类似于电信运营商在决定天线位置或方向时已经采用的方法。
And this is similar to how I know that telecom operators are already working when they decide on how to position or rotate their antennas and so on.
你们是否使用某些软件来预测在不同参数下会获得的性能?
Are using some software to predict what performance they will get with different parameters.
然后可能涉及如何旋转天线,以及如何上下倾斜之类的操作。
Then it might be how they should rotate it and how they should tilt it up or down or things like that.
但现在,你也可以针对特定环境,优化天线布局,并为每个站点单独进行这种优化。
But now you could also sort of, for a particular environment, optimize the antenna arrangement and do this for every site specifically.
完全正确。
Totally.
所以,这是我一直想问的问题:
So Okay, so here's the question I've been
现在我憋了很久想问一下。
sitting on for some time now.
假设你有一个标准的均匀网格,然后你用你们先进的优化算法对其进行稀疏化,再通过某种指标(比如容量)来衡量性能。
Let's say you got the nominal uniform grid, okay, and then you thin this out using your advanced optimization algorithms, and then you measure performance through some metric, let's say some capacity, maybe something like that.
与随机分布相比,这种方法能提升多少?
How much better is this compared to random?
假设我从一个均匀网格开始,然后随机移除天线,直到达到所需的数量,从而得到设计。
Let's say that I start with my uniform grid, and then I just thin it out at random by removing antennas at random until I get the desired number, and then I get the design.
然后我可能尝试这一百次或一千次,选出最好的结果。
And then I try this a 100 or a thousand times maybe, and I pick the best.
你的算法相比这100次随机实现中的最佳结果,能好多少?
How much better is your algorithm as compared to just the best of 100 random realizations?
对,没错。
Right, right.
我认为这取决于你所处的传播环境。
I think it will depend on what kind of propagation environment you're having there.
随机方法出人意料地比均匀稀疏阵列表现好得多。
The random one was interestingly better, substantially better than the uniform sparse array.
所以,均匀稀疏现在意味着间距必然大于半波长。
So uniform sparse now means that the spacing is necessarily larger than half a wavelength.
是的,完全正确。
Yes, exactly.
所以如果你从一个小型阵列开始,比如16个天线,组成一个4x4的阵列,然后将其拉伸,效果会更好。
So if you start from a small array with say yeah, 16 antennas, so 4x4 array, and then you stretch it out, you do better.
接着你随机调整内部天线的位置,效果会更好。
Then you randomize the antenna location that's inside, you do even better.
然后你应用我们的优化方法,效果还能进一步提升。
And then you apply our optimization and you do, yeah, further better.
我认为在不同情况下,通过精确布置天线位置,相比随机分布,性能可以提升30%到50%。
And I think depending on the situation there, we could get something between 3050% better performance by positioning them accurately as compared to randomizing the locations.
我明白了。
I see.
我明白了。
I see.
太棒了。
Cool.
好的。
Okay.
哇。
Wow.
所以还有一个概念,我觉得和天线选择有点相关,几年前在学术界曾非常流行。
So there's also this concept, which is a bit related, I think, with on one hand antenna selection that was very popular some years ago, at least in academia.
这个想法基本上是,你有很多天线,但没有足够的电子设备与之连接。
The idea is basically that you have a lot antennas, but you don't have enough electronics chained.
所以你只是关闭一些天线,然后将电子设备链与剩下的天线连接起来。
So you just switch some of the antennas off, then you interconnect the electronics chain with the antennas that remain.
一方面,是天线选择。
So on one hand, the antenna selection.
另一方面,是移动或可重构天线的概念,也就是机械性地改变天线的位置。
On the other hand, this notion of moving or reconfigurable antennas where you're supposed to, like, mechanically shift around locations where the antennas are.
你们的工作和这两种方法中的任何一种有联系吗?
Is there a connection to your work here between either of the two?
我觉得我对天线选择不太感兴趣,因为在我看来,这需要大量开关,而这些开关会带来损耗,进而影响链路预算或接收信号的信噪比。
I guess I'm not a huge fan of antenna selection because to me it seems like you need a lot of switches and these switches will come with losses and these losses will translate into a hit on the link budget or on received signal to noise ratio.
我不太喜欢移动天线这个想法,因为你需要很多会移动的机械部件。
I'm not sure I'm a huge fan of the idea of moving antennas because you need a lot of mechanical parts that move around.
只要涉及会移动的机械部件,就需要有人确保它们保持润滑,而且电缆会弯曲和扭转,久而久之很可能断裂。
Whenever you've got a mechanical part moving around you've got something that somebody needs to make sure that it stays lubricated and you can get cables that bend and twist and over time they are likely to break.
任何反复弯曲和扭转的东西,最终都会断裂。
Anything that you bend and twist back and forth over time will eventually break.
但在我看来,这里确实存在一种联系,即能够根据特定站点位置重新配置天线阵列的拓扑结构,这与天线选择和移动天线等概念有关。
But it sounds to me that there is a connection here between actually being able to reconfigure the topology of an antenna array for a specific site location and these notions of antenna selection and moving antennas and so on.
你能谈谈这一点吗,埃米尔?
Could you speak to that, Emil?
是的。
Yes.
确实存在联系,尤其是在数学层面。
So there is definitely a connection, particularly in the mathematics.
我们提出了一种方法来解决一个问题:在一万种不同的用户场景下优化平均数据速率。
So we formulated to solve a problem where we said, Let's optimize the average data rate over 10,000 different user realization.
但如果你只考虑一种实际情况,即我的特定用户,那就找出天线的最佳位置。
But if you bring that down only to one realization, here is my particular users, let's find the best locations of the antennas.
然后你可以用同样的方法来解决这个问题,找到特定的天线位置。
Then you can solve the problem using the same tools and you find particular antenna locations.
如果你的硬件具备实时移动天线的能力,那么你就能实现这种性能。
And if you then have some hardware capabilities where you can move around your antennas in real time, well, then you could achieve that performance.
当然,如果你为每个用户单独优化,效果会更好。
And you should of course do better if you optimize for every user.
是的,每当用户出现并需要访问数据时,你就移动天线来找到最佳位置,而不是一次性部署后就不再动它。
Yeah, every time the users pop up and want to access data, you move the antennas to find the best location as compared to deploying them once and for all.
是的,当然。
Yeah, sure.
但收益有多大呢?
But how large are the gains?
我的意思是,我们这里讨论的是多大的提升?
I mean, what are we talking about here?
因为我认为,要证明移动天线布置的合理性,你需要看到容量至少提升三到四倍,否则就不值得这么做。
Because I think to justify anything like a moving antenna arrangement, you would need to see gains of at least three or four times in capacity, otherwise it would just be worth it.
你们的增益有多大?你们模拟过所有这些系统吗?
How large are the gains in your Did you simulate all these systems?
我们确实做了这些模拟。
We definitely did that.
而且确实有增益。
And there are gains.
这些增益来自于:当你以这种非均匀的、一次性的方式布置天线时,你希望将旁瓣干扰均匀地分散到所有角度上。
And the gains comes from that when you position the antennas in this non uniform once and for all way, you want to spread out the side lobe interference so that it is equal over all angles.
而使用可移动天线时,你可以尽量让旁瓣更尖锐,并将零点精确地设置在其他用户所在的位置。
While with the movable antennas, what you can do is that you try to have as picky side lobes as possible and then you put the zeros, the nulls in between them exactly where another user is.
因此,你可以基本实现各个用户信道之间的正交性。
So you can basically try to make the channels to users orthogonal to each other.
这样你就可以同时向任意一个用户发送信号。
So you can transmit to any of them.
它们在空间上完全隔离。
They are perfectly isolated in space.
它们不会相互干扰。
They are not interfering with each other.
是的。
Sure.
但是埃米尔,这要求用户在你重新配置天线阵列时保持位置静止。
But Emil, this this requires that the users actually stay static in their location while you reconfigure the arrangement of your antennas now.
因此,你机械地调整天线位置的时间尺度必须与用户的相干时间或移动性相当,这在我看来,可能只适用于某些固定接入场景,即用户完全不移动,或者用户移动极其缓慢,而且你拥有非常快速的天线阵列位置调整方式。
So kind of like the time scale on which you shift around your antennas mechanically would have to be comparable to the coherence time or the mobility of the users, which seems to me that it might only work if, I mean, maybe for some sort of fixed access where users don't move at all, I can see this, or if somebody moves like is known to move very, very slowly, or at least, and you have a comparatively very fast like way of shifting the location of your antenna arrangement.
当你提到相干时间时,我们通常指的是信道变化到需要改变波束成形——也就是改变天线位置——所需的时间。
And when you say coherence time, we typically refer to how quickly does it take from the channels to change so much that you would like to change your beamforming, and in this case, change the antenna locations.
但在这里,还需要区分非视距场景,即存在大量多径,信道变化时情况会剧烈波动。
But here, one needs to distinguish also between non line of sight cases where you have a lot of multipaths and when the channel is changing, things are changing very drastically.
而如果你处于视距主导的场景中,每个用户都有一个主方向,这个方向会略有偏移,但你仍需重新学习信道,因为除了信道变化外,它还会旋转接收端的波束,因此你需要从这个角度重新学习。
While if you are in a line of sight dominant scenario, every user have a main angle, that angle shifts a little bit, but you need to relearn the channel because in addition to the channel shifting, that rotates your consolation at receivers, you need to relearn from that perspective.
所以这些情况,嗯,可能无法被处理
So those situations Yeah, where you that might could not be change handled
我的意思是,星座的旋转并不是大问题,我知道这可以通过解调导频来处理,但更重要的是,发射端需要获取信道信息,以真正知道波束发射的角度。
I mean, the rotation of the constellation is not a big deal, I I know that can be handled just through a demodulation pilot, but it's more important to get the chance data information at the transmitter to actually know the angle in which you're shooting the beam.
是的。
Yes.
但你说得对,在直视条件下,相干时间的概念会略有不同。
But you're right that in line of sight, then the concept of coherence time becomes slightly different.
对。
Yes.
那么,最优的天线位置可能会在较长时间内保持大致不变。
Then the optimal antenna locations might stay roughly the same for a longer period of time.
但现在我来回答你提出的问题。
But I will now answer the question that you asked.
可移动天线能带来多大收益?
How much do we gain from movable antennas?
你随便找一篇这个主题的论文,看看他们展示的性能,会发现有巨大的提升。
You take an arbitrary paper on this topic and you look at the performance that they're showing, there is great gain.
有时他们的性能翻了一倍。
Sometimes they are doubling the performance.
但我们应该谨慎看待他们实际对比的是什么?
But then we should be careful with what are the things that they're actually comparing against?
通常,他们从相同数量的天线开始,这些天线紧密排列,间距约为半个波长。
Well, they usually start with having the same number of antennas in a tiny, like half of a wavelength apart array.
然后他们将阵列扩展到最大尺寸,形成一个稀疏均匀阵列。
Then they stretch it out to the maximum size and have a sparse uniform array.
接着他们引入了可移动天线。
And then they had the movable antennas.
你可以看到一个渐进过程:从小型阵列到稀疏阵列更好,而从稀疏阵列到可移动天线则好得多。
And there you see a progression going from small to sparse is better, and going from sparse to movable antennas is way better.
但他们没有展示的是我一直在强调的那些非均匀阵列。
But what they don't show in between are these non uniform arrays that I have been preaching about.
哦,真的吗?
Oh, really?
所以你是说文献中没有人研究过这个吗?
So are you saying that nobody has investigated this in the literature?
我的意思是,这看起来显然是个可以做的事儿,而且早就该有人做了。我想你和我以前就讨论过为什么天线阵列长成这样。
I mean it seems like such an obvious thing that you could do and long ago now I think you and me had this conversation about why antenna arrays look the way they look.
首先,为什么它们非得这么难看?
To start with, why do they have to be so ugly?
这一点我们可以聊聊,但先别管它。
That's one thing we can talk about, but forget that for now.
我们暂时不谈这个。
Let's not go there for now.
但问题是,为什么你不干脆把天线随便扔到任何地方呢?
But now the thing is like, okay, why don't you just throw antennas out anywhere?
就像圣诞树上的彩灯一样。
Could, you know, like lights on a Christmas tree.
是的
Yeah.
所以你有了电缆,沿着电缆分布着一些天线,你只是随便把它放出去,像一张蜘蛛网一样,这真的会有区别吗?
So you got the cable and along the cable, there are some antennas and you just kind of, like, put it out there and like a spider web and and would it even make a difference?
而现在你说,不会。
And now you're saying that, no.
这确实有影响,但甚至可能比均匀间隔排列天线的效果要好得多。
It doesn't make, well, makes a difference, but it could even be that it's actually a lot better than putting the antennas with uniform spacing.
是的
Yeah.
但很有趣的是,你说在文献中,之前没有人研究过优化这些天线位置所带来的性能提升。
But it's quite interesting to know that so you're saying that saying that in in the in the literature, nobody has investigated before, in fact the performance gains of optimizing these placements.
我认为我们是第一批真正比较这两种概念的团队,在几篇论文中做了这项工作,包括你提到的那些,我们也会在本集的介绍中提及。
So I think we were the first ones to really compare these two concepts with each other in a few papers, including the ones that you were referring to and that we will mention in description of this episode.
当我们真正将这种优化过的阵列与固定阵列进行比较时,可能会发现可移动天线能带来大约10%的性能提升。
And what we see then that if you're really comparing with an array that is optimized for this setup, then you might have some 10% gains from the movable antennas left.
但正如你所说,在现实中,由于各种硬件问题,以及你需要更深入的信道知识来判断如何移动天线,你很可能会失去大部分这些增益。
But as you were saying, you will probably lose a lot of those gains reality because of all kinds of hardware issues and also because you need some deeper kind of channel knowledge in order to figure out how you want to move the antennas.
因为你不想频繁地把天线移动到多个采样点,估计信道,然后重复这种非常繁琐的过程。
Because you don't want to move them around to a number of different sample points, estimate the channels, and then repeat a very cumbersome situation.
所以,你必须能够预测:如果我只是把它移到那里,性能会不会更好。
So somehow you need to be able to predict if I just move it there, performance will be better.
是的,当然。
Yeah, sure.
但这是一个非常重要的结论。
But that's such an important conclusion.
你刚才提到关于信道状态信息,当然,一旦我们不再使用均匀线性或均匀平面阵列,互易性就成了获取信道信息唯一合理且技术上可靠的方法。
One thing you said along the way here also about chance state information, of course, once we depart from uniform linear or uniform planar arrays, I suppose reciprocity is the only reasonable and the only technically sound way of getting the chance data information.
但回到可移动天线的问题,如果我理解得没错,你的结论是:在典型情况下,将可移动天线配置与优化过的非均匀间距阵列相比,增益大约为10%。
But back to the movable antenna, so if I understood you well here, your conclusion was that comparing a movable antenna configuration with just an optimized non uniformly spaced array, the gain you could get is like 10% in typical situations.
而对我来说,谁会在乎这10%呢?
And to me, who cares about 10%?
我的意思是,这看起来根本不可能值得去做。
I mean, it sounds like there's no way that that's going to be worth it.
所以,埃米尔,我认为你这篇新论文中的结论非常重要。
So important conclusions, I think, Emil, in your new paper.
顺便提一下,有些人把可移动天线称为流体天线。
Just for the record as well, some people are calling movable antennas fluid antennas.
这基本上是同一个意思。
That means basically the same.
这一切都回归到实现这些功能的不同方式。
It all goes back to different ways that one could implement things.
你提到过,可以用天线选择技术来实现可移动天线。
You were mentioning one could implement movable antennas with antenna selection type of technology.
它可以是机械移动的,也可以是流体天线。
It could be mechanically moving or fluid antennas.
只是描述一下,每个天线都可以是电解液天线,通过改变流体内部的特性来调整它。
Just describing that every antenna is an electrolytic fluid antenna that way you can change its by changing something within the fluid's properties.
所以,是的,有很多不同的术语。
So, yeah, there are many terms.
现在人们正在争论该叫它什么。
People are fighting right now about what to call it.
我明白了。
I see.
是的,当然。
Yeah, sure.
好的。
Alright.
那么,总结一下,Emil,你觉得天线阵列和面板在6G时代最终会是什么样子?
So in wrapping this up, Emil, how do you think that antenna arrays and panels eventually will look like for six gs?
也许更长远一点,比如未来呢?
And maybe beyond, let's say for the future?
我
I
我认为在6G中,第一步将是把目前5G系统常用的3.5GHz或C频段,提升到大约7到15GHz的范围,也就是所谓的上中频段。
think the first step that will happen in six gs is that we will go from the frequency bands of 3.5 or C band that are typically used today for the state of the art five gs systems to something around seven to 15 GHz, they call the upper mid band.
当你提升频率时,波长会缩小两到四倍。
And when you go up in frequency like that, the wavelength is shrinking by two to four times.
这意味着在相同尺寸的基站内,你可以塞入更多的天线。
And that means that within the same size of a base station, you can squeeze in many more antennas.
因此,你可能在同一个设备里放入四到十倍的天线。
So you could have maybe four to 10 times more antennas inside the same box.
但我看到的问题是,你并不想这样简单地扩展,因为那样的话,你需要背后配备大量的射频硬件。
That is the issue that I'm seeing that you don't want to scale it like that because then you would need to have so much radio hardware behind it.
这就给了你机会,不再使用均匀排列的阵列,而可以在设备内部灵活调整天线布局,运用我们之前讨论过的那种概念,用更少的天线实现更好的性能。
And that gives you then the opportunity to not have uniform arrays anymore, but within that box, yeah, play around with the arrangement, use this kind of concept that we were talking about in order to provide better performance with reduced number of antennas.
但你仍需谨慎维持链路预算,直到你能通过使用不同增益的天线,或调整它们的增益来实现这一点,比如让每个天线的辐射增益在水平方向覆盖更广,而在垂直方向更窄。
But you still need to be careful with maintaining your link budget until you can do that by having antennas possibly with some different gains or play with the gains of them, aim the radiation gain so that you have a wide coverage of each antenna horizontally, but less vertically, for example.
还有一些更前沿的想法,比如在阵列前方放置一个透射式可重构智能表面——我们在最近一期节目中讨论过的东西,用它来收集所有照射到阵列的能量,然后通过模拟波束成形,将其导向后方更少数量的天线。
There are also some more futuristic ideas about putting a transmissive reconfigurable intelligent surface, the things we talked about in a recent episode, front of the array to collect all the energy that hits the array and then analog beamform it towards your fewer number antennas at the backside of your antenna
阵列。
arrays.
我明白了。
I see.
我明白了。
I see.
我的意思是,这听起来像某种先进的电磁透镜,但也许我们今天先不深入讨论这个。
I mean, sounds like an advanced electromagnetic lens somehow, but maybe let's not go there today.
但我的理解是,对于阵列拓扑优化来说,关键的考虑点确实是物理空间的限制。
But, so my understanding now is then that the operating point of interest here for array topology optimization is really when we've got the physical space.
好的。
Okay.
或者更准确地说,是这样。
Or rather this way.
所以我们有一个标准设计,即一个紧凑型阵列,间距为半波长。
So we got a nominal design, which is a compact array, with lambda half or half a wavelength spacing.
可能是,通常会是一个小型矩形阵列。
Could be, typically would be like a mini rectangular array.
但我们现在有物理空间,因此实际上可以扩展孔径。
But then we've got the physical space, so that we could actually stretch out the aperture.
但我们无法在数值上容纳更多的天线。
But we can't afford numerically more antennas.
于是问题来了:我们是应该以大于半波长的均匀间距放置这些天线,还是放在某种网格上,或者干脆随机、任意地放置,甚至放在优化后的位置上?
And then the question arises as to, well, should we place these antennas now with larger than half a wavelength spacing uniformly, or on some kind of grid, or or just at arbitrarily, maybe even random, or at arbitrary, or perhaps optimized locations.
如果我们这样做,就能获得较大的阵列增益。
And if we do that, have large array gains.
这基本上就是你在这几篇论文中所探讨的内容。
That is basically what you've been addressing in your papers here.
这是一个非常有趣的问题,我认为我们还需要考虑其他因素。
Very interesting question, think, and I also think that there are other considerations that we need to make.
一方面,从理论上讲,扩大孔径是好事,你的天线可以更稀疏地排列,这确实不错,因为更大的孔径意味着更好的角度分辨率、更尖锐的波束主瓣等等,但同时也意味着阵列内的信号需要传播更长的距离。
One is that while in principle it's a great thing to enlarge the aperture, and your antennas might sit more sparsely together, it's a good thing because a larger aperture means better angular resolution, means a sharper main lobe of your beamforming and so on, but it also means that signals within the array have to travel a longer distance.
特别是,如果你使用射频振荡器、锁相环或其他驱动天线的设备,并用时钟信号驱动它们,那么传输时钟的电缆就需要更长,因此损耗也会更高。
In particular, if you got RF oscillators PLLs or whatever that drive the antennas and you feed them with a clock, then the cable that feeds the clock has to be longer, so the losses are going to be higher.
而且所有数字化的基带信号等也都需要传输更远的距离。
And also all the digitized baseband and all of that will have to travel further.
因此,这里会存在一些实现上的挑战,这些挑战最终可能会决定:不仅物理空间的可用性,还有成本、功耗以及实际电子设备制造的难度,都将决定我们最终能够实际构建的孔径大小。
So there will be implementation challenges here that probably eventually determine mean it's not only the availability of physical space, but it's also the cost and the power consumption and the difficulty of building the actual electronics that will determine how large apertures that we can eventually feasibly build.
这是一个权衡问题,我对它很难做出推测,因为一方面,从电子设计的角度来看,我理解人们希望构建紧凑型阵列的需求。
And this is a trade off and a topic that I have a bit of a hard time speculating about, because on one hand I can see the desire to build a compact array from the electronics design perspective.
另一方面,从通信理论的角度来看,我也理解你论文中所展示的、希望构建物理尺寸更大且天线间距非均匀的阵列的动机。
I can see the desire to build a physically larger array with non uniform antenna spacings from a com theoretic perspective, as you demonstrated in your paper.
只有未来才能告诉我们,这里下一代产品会是什么样子。
Guess only the future can tell what the next or the future lines of products here will look like.
是的。
Yes.
如果有人能解决你所描述的时钟分配问题,那么未来部署基站的一种潜在方式可能是:在同一屋顶上,不部署一个天线面板,而是将面板切割成多个部分,并将它们分开布置成多个小型面板。
And if one can solve that clock distribution problem that you described, then one potential way of deploying base station in the future would be that on the same rooftop, you don't deploy one antenna panel, but you cut your panel into multiple pieces and you move them apart Multiple small panels.
多个小型面板。
Multiple small panels.
每个小面板可能都有一个紧凑的阵列。
Every little panel, might have a small compact array
或者当我们以前在一些论文中展示这个概念时,我们也把它们均匀分布,但实际上它们不应该均匀分布。
or And then when we were showing that concept in some papers, we put them out in just a uniform manner there as well, but potentially they should not be uniform.
第一个应该相隔一米,第二个应该相隔四米,以获取更多系统信息并减少冗余。
The first one should be one meter apart and the second one should be four meters apart, just to get further information into the system and reduce the redundancy.
对,对。
Right, right.
当然,是的。
Sure, yeah.
当然,最终的解决方案是尽可能地分散所有天线,这就是去中心化MIMO或无小区MIMO的概念。
And of course the eventual solution would be to spread all the antennas out as far as possible and that would be the de MIMO or cell free MIMO concept.
我认为这是终极解决方案。
That's the ultimate solution, I think.
但是
But
即使如此,我们也知道这可能不是随机分布,但你或许还想为某种目的优化位置
even then, we know that it might not be a random distribution, but maybe you also want to optimize the location for some kind of
是的,优化位置。
Yeah, optimize the locations.
很好。
Great.
这实际上意味着,大量此前文献中几乎未被触及的物理层研究新问题就此涌现。
So that sounds like, in fact, a gold mine of new physical layer research problems that have been largely untouched in the previous literature.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
All right.
我希望我们的一些听众能受到启发,在他们未来的研究或学习中考虑这些问题。
So I hope that some of our listeners will get inspired and consider some of these things in their own research or studies in the future.
好了,感谢埃里克今天的精彩对话,也感谢我们的听众,请点赞、订阅并关注我们的下一期节目。
So with that, thank you Erik for a great conversation today and thank you to our listeners and please like and subscribe and watch our next episode.
谢谢你,埃米尔。
Thank you, Emil.
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