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最近似乎人人都在大肆宣传蛋白质，这也没错。
It seems like everyone's shouting protein from the rooftops lately, and that's fair.
蛋白质确实有助于维持肌肉，而且在徒步或跑步后，蛋白质是很好的恢复方式。
It really does maintain your muscles, and protein is a great way to recover after a hike or a run.
但说实话，满足你的蛋白质需求并不意味着你得吃另一份寡淡无味的鸡胸肉。
But let's be honest, meeting your protein needs shouldn't require you to consume another sad, unseasoned chicken breast.
Ratio蛋白酸奶每杯含有25克蛋白质。
Ratio Protein Yogurt has 25 grams of protein per cup.
这比四个完整的鸡蛋还要多。
That's more than four whole eggs.
它不仅富含蛋白质，而且质地顺滑绵密，因此在达成目标时无需牺牲美味。
Not only is it packed with protein, but Ratio Protein has a smooth and creamy texture, so there's no need to compromise great taste when hitting your goals.
更棒的是，Ratio蛋白酸奶每杯含有的25克蛋白质是酸奶货架中最高的，而且不含任何添加糖。
And get this, Ratio Protein's 25 grams of protein is the most protein per cup in the yogurt aisle, plus zero added sugar.
这能帮助你获得全天所需的能量。
This helps you get the fuel you need to power through your day.
Ratio 已经帮您算好了，您无需操心。
Ratio does the math, so you don't have to.
前往 ratiofood.com 查找您附近的零售商。
Head to ratiofood.com to find a retailer near you.
Lemonada。
Lemonada.
我于1961年1月13日星期五，在纽约医院出生，那天正逢暴风雪。
I was born in Manhattan in the middle of a snowstorm at New York Hospital on a Friday, Friday, the thirteenth, 01/13/1961.
医生们一直对我的妈妈说：别担心。
And the doctors kept saying to my mom, oh, don't worry.
别担心。
Don't worry.
她不会在13号星期五出生的。
She won't be born on Friday the thirteenth.
我妈妈说：哦，不，她会的。
And my mom said, oh yeah, she will.
她就要来了。
She's coming.
她说对了。
And she was right.
我是在星期五的13号，晚上10点半出生的，我一直很喜欢这个日子。
I was born on Friday the thirteenth, like at 10:30 at night, which I have always really liked.
这是一个幸运的‘13’。
It's a lucky '13.
我童年最早的回忆，我想我当时大概三岁，去邦维特·泰勒——那个现在已经不存在的百货公司——买一个枕头。
My earliest memory as a child, I think I was probably about three was going to Bonwit teller, the now defunct Bonwit teller, the department store to go shopping for a pillow.
我清晰地记得当时挑选枕头的情景。
I remember this vividly choosing it.
你知道，那个枕头上有粉色丝带的图案，天啊，之后很多年我都特别喜欢那个枕头。
You know, it had a pink ribbon design and oh god, I love that pillow for many years afterwards.
古老的装饰风邦维特·泰勒大楼被拆除了，他们在第五大道的原址上建起了那座糟糕透顶的特朗普大厦。
The old deco Bonwit and Teller building got knocked down, and they put up that shitty awful Trump Tower on the site on 5th Avenue.
真可惜。
Such a shame.
那是一座宏伟的建筑杰作，真正的美轮美奂。
It was a gorgeous architectural masterpiece, a real beauty of a building.
我至今仍记得，和妈妈在雨雪天乘坐横穿城市的公交车，靠在她身上，坐在她腿上，看着窗外的建筑掠过，感觉特别温暖。
I have very cozy memories of going on the Crosstown bus with my mother in the rain and the snow and and leaning up against her and sitting on her lap and watching buildings go by.
我们住在96街，那会儿正好赶上1965年纽约大停电。
We lived at 96 and parked during the big New York blackout of nineteen sixty five.
我很确定。
I'm pretty sure.
我记得很清楚，那时我的继父——因为我觉得他们那时还没结婚。
And I remember so clearly that my stepdad, because I don't think they were married yet.
也许那时他只是我妈妈的男朋友。
Maybe he was my mom's boyfriend then.
我不确定。
I don't know.
但他不得不步行爬上我们公寓楼的所有楼梯，因为电梯无法工作。
But he had to walk up all the stairs of our apartment building because the elevator couldn't work.
我觉得他就像个超级英雄，你知道的，一路爬楼梯来救我们。我们住在96街和公园大道的那栋楼，楼梯间铺着老式的油毡地板。
And I thought he was like a superhero, you know, coming to save us up the stairs, which he was The stairs in the building where we lived on 96th And Park had linoleum floors in the stairwells, you know, like on the stairs, old school linoleum.
这种地板有一种非常特别的气味。
It has a very specific smell to it.
有点发霉的味道。
It's sort of musty.
也有点塑料味。
It's sort of plasticky.
但对我来说，这种气味极具唤起力，它让我瞬间回到了生命早期那段非常幸福的时光。
But to me, this smell is incredibly evocative, and it really catapults me back to that early time in my life, which was very happy.
我在洛杉矶有一位耳鼻喉科医生，住在比弗利山庄。
I have a doctor in Los Angeles, an ear, nose, and throat doctor in Beverly Hills.
每次我去他那里，我都不坐电梯。
And whenever I go to him, I don't take the elevator.
我走他楼里的楼梯，因为那是一座老楼，楼梯的地板和我家的一样。
I take the stairs in his building because it's an old building, and his stairs have the same floors.
楼梯间的气味和1965年我在纽约家里的味道一模一样。
And the stairwell smells exactly the same as my home back in New York in 1965.
我年轻时就离开了纽约。
I left New York when I was young.
我当时七八岁，我们四处旅行，因为我的继父是希望号医院船的外科医生，那艘船走遍了全世界。
I was seven or eight, and we traveled because my stepdad was a surgeon for Project Hope, a hospital ship that went all over the world.
当我们最终回到美国时，我们定居在华盛顿特区，那是一座美丽的城市。
And when we finally came back to The US, we wound up in Washington DC, which is a beautiful city.
但我的亲生父亲住在纽约，我当然很想见他。
But my actual father was living in New York, and, of course, I longed to see him.
于是，我整个青少年时期都在华盛顿特区和曼哈顿之间乘坐东部航空的穿梭航班往返。
And so I spent the rest of my youth going back and forth from DC to Manhattan on the Eastern Airline shuttle.
我必须承认，自从我们在我年幼时离开纽约后，我一直有着极其深切的渴望，想回到纽约。
I will admit that ever since we left New York when I was young, I've had a very, very deep yearning to get back to New York.
这种渴望贯穿了我的一生，即使我曾经在纽约居住过一段时间，比如我出演《周六夜现场》的时候。
And I've had that yearning kind of all my life, even though I lived there for periods of time, like back when I was doing Saturday Night Live and so on.
我上大学在芝加哥，我愉快地在加州养育了家人，但我内心仍有一种漂泊不定的地理认同。
I went to college in Chicago, and I've happily raised my family in California, but I still have an unsettled sort of geographical self.
说实话，我爱曼哈顿，无论它有多少缺点。
The truth is I love Manhattan, warts and all.
它已经融入了我的骨髓。
It's in my bones.
所以去年，我的朋友卡罗尔·哈尔平和杰里·赛恩菲尔德都给我发了这张照片。
So last year, my friends Carol Halpin and Jerry Seinfeld both sent me a photo of this.
说实话，每当我想到它，都会有点哽咽。
And I get a little bit choked up when I think about it, to be honest.
但现在纽约的公交站台上有了带屏幕和旋转广告牌的自助服务亭。
But there are these kiosks with screens and revolving signs at the bus stops in New York now.
城市大概在我生日那几天，连续两年都挂出了这些广告。
And the city put up on my birthday, I guess, a couple of years in a row.
他们在公交站的告示牌上写道：今天是1月13日，女演员朱莉娅·路易斯-德雷福斯出生于曼哈顿，一位真正的曼哈顿人。
They put up something like, on this day, January 13, actress Julia Louis Dreyfus was born in Manhattan, a true Manhattanite.
天啊，这让我感觉特别好。
God, that makes me feel really good.
我的故事起点就是这座城市，就是纽约。
I mean, this is my origin story, this city, this New York.
今天，我们对话的这位终极纽约客是弗兰·莱博维茨。
And today, we are talking to the ultimate New Yorker, Fran Lebowitz.
我是朱莉娅·路易斯-德雷福斯，欢迎收听《比我更睿智》，这档节目每周我都会向比我更有智慧的女性学习。
I'm Julia Louis Dreyves, and this is Wiser Than Me, a show where each week I get schooled by women who are wiser than me.
你知道吗，当我刚开始做这个播客时，大概一个月前吧，我特别想采访几位极其聪明的女性，而名单上第一位、也是始终第一位的就是弗兰·莱博维茨，毕竟她就是弗兰·莱博维茨。
You know, when I first got into this podcast game, like, a month or two ago at this point, There were a couple of unbelievably smart women that I was dying to get to talk to, and top of the list was and is Fran Lebowitz, you know, because she's Fran Lebowitz.
这就是她的工作。
That's her job.
她正在做她自己的‘莱博维茨式’表达。
She's she's Lebowitzing.
她就是人们过去所说的‘才女’，聪明得不得了，反应极快，带着讽刺意味，又以一种酷酷的姿态超然物外。
She's what they used to call a wit, somebody who is smart as hell, super quick, sardonic, and kind of above it all in a very cool way.
但与弗兰·莱博维茨进行对话——这位以脾气暴躁、才华横溢、机智过人而闻名的弗兰·莱博维茨——可能会让人有点紧张。
But having a conversation with Fran Lebowitz, famously cranky, brilliant, witty Fran Lebowitz, that could be a little intimidating.
对吧？
Right?
于是我认真研究了弗兰·莱博维茨。
So I studied up on my Fran Lebowitz.
我重新观看了马丁·斯科塞斯拍摄的关于她的两部纪录片。
I rewatched the Martin Scorsese documentaries about her, both of them.
随着我越来越多地阅读她在《村声》、《采访》杂志上的作品，以及她的两本出色的讽刺著作《都市生活》和《社会研究》，并听了大量她的访谈和公开演讲，我发现她的见解比我想象的更加深刻、细致和富有层次。
And as I read more and more of her work in the Village Voice, Interview Magazine, her two fabulous satirical books, Metropolitan Life and Social Studies, and listened to a ton of her interviews and appearances, I saw that her insight is even more deep, more detailed, and more nuanced than I'd imagined.
我真是太兴奋了，能和她交谈。
And I just I'm so excited to talk to her.
从她被高中开除的那天起，直到此刻，她一直比我聪明得多。
From the day she got expelled from high school to this very minute, she's always been much wiser than me.
欢迎，弗兰·莱布利茨。
Welcome, Fran Leblitz.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
嘿，弗兰。
Hey, Fran.
请问，您今年多大了？
How old are you, if I may ask?
你可以问。
You may ask.
我72岁。
I'm 72.
那您觉得自己有多大年纪？
And how old do you feel?
82岁。
82.
有些日子，也许92岁。
Some days, maybe 92.
那你为什么觉得自己82岁呢？
And what why do you feel 82?
我内心已经老了。
I'm old at heart.
你喜欢变老吗？
Do you like getting old?
不喜欢。
No.
太可怕了。
It's horrible.
真的吗？
Really?
变老有什么好的地方吗？
Is there anything good about it?
嗯，这没什么好的地方。
Well, there's nothing good enough about it.
好吧。
Okay.
唯一还算好的是，我在新冠之前一直这么想，你知道的，所有事情都发生过。
The good thing about it is that, well, I would say this up until COVID, which I had never thought about, you know everything.
意思是，任何发生的事都曾在某种程度上发生过。
By which mean nothing has happened that hasn't in some way happened before.
对。
Right.
所以在新冠之前，每发生一件事都会让我想起以前发生过的类似事情。
So until COVID, every single thing that happened reminded me of something else that happened.
但新冠是我从未想过的事——如果爆发一场瘟疫怎么办？
But COVID, I one thing I never thought about was what if there's a plague?
对。
Right.
这让我明白，即使是老年人，也可能遇到以前从未发生过的事情。
So that taught me that something could happen even to an old person that never happened before.
嗯。
Yeah.
所以我想先问你一件事，我相信你妈妈曾对你说过，男孩不喜欢搞笑的女孩。
So I wanna start by asking you about something I believe your mom said to you, which is that boys don't like funny girls.
她真的对你这样说过吗？
Is that something she really said to you?
是的。
Yeah.
她确实帮了我。
She did help me that.
人们经常问我，你的父母希望你当作家吗？
People very often ask me, did your parents want you to be a writer?
他们反对你当作家吗？
Did they object to being a writer?
他们不希望我成为作家。
They didn't want me to be a writer.
他们并不反对我去当作家。
They didn't object to be being a writer.
他们根本不在乎。
They didn't care at all.
他们从不关注这件事。
They never paid attention to it.
好的。
Okay.
我出生于1950年。
I was born in 1950.
嗯。
Mhmm.
明白了吗？
Alright?
女孩们想要的是对任何人都不感兴趣。
What girls wanted to do was have no interest to anyone.
我的意思是，当我宣布我要当作家时，根本没人抬头看一眼。
I mean, so that I would say I'm gonna be a writer, no one even, like, looked up.
你的父母希望你做什么？
What did your parents want you to be?
当妻子。
A wife.
他们希望我当妻子。
They wanted me to be wife.
他们期望我成为妻子。
They expected me to be a wife.
你知道的？
You know?
那就是他们的期望。
So that was their interest.
当你到了十二岁左右，不管具体是几岁，1962年所有十二岁女孩的母亲，都不只是我妈妈，都在告诉她们同样的话。
When you started to be, I don't know, like 12 years old, whatever age it was, and my mother and not just my mother, all mothers of all 12 year old girls in 1962 told them the same thing.
你知道吗？
You know?
这是你应该做的事。
Here's what you should do.
这是男孩们喜欢的。
This is what boys like.
这是男孩们不喜欢的。
This is what boys don't like.
我妈妈总是说，别在男孩面前耍幽默。
And my mother would always say, don't be funny around boys.
男孩不喜欢搞笑的女孩。
Boys don't like funny girls.
首先，我妈妈是错的。
Now first of all, my mother was wrong.
其次，我发现我根本不在乎。
And second of all, it turned out I don't care.
所以，在我上过的唯一一所中学——初中九年级，我就毕业了。
So in my junior high school, the only school I ever graduated from was from the ninth grade.
每年年底学校都会颁发奖项。
They gave awards at the end of the year.
我获得了一个叫‘班级幽默奖’的奖项。
And I received this award that was called the class wit award.
我必须强调一下，我九年级的同学里并没有人是王尔德，所以这个奖其实竞争并不激烈。
Now I have to, you know, emphasize that other people in my ninth grade class were not Oscar Wilde, so it wasn't really a rough field.
但我害怕把这张奖状带回家，因为我以为妈妈会生我的气。
But I was afraid to bring this thing home because I thought my mother would be angry at me.
哦。
Oh.
因为很明显，我一直在男生面前耍幽默。
Because clearly, I I had been being funny around boys.
你知道吗，我要说，我觉得你妈妈说得有一定道理，因为据我经验，幽默确实有一种力量和魅力。
You know, I will say, though, I think that your mother was partially right because I do think in my experience, there is a kind of strength and a power to being funny.
有些人会觉得这很令人畏惧，尤其是男性。
And certain people find that intimidating, particularly men.
我想这确实是真的。
That's what I I'm sure that is true.
是的。
Yeah.
但也有足够多的男孩不是那样的，你知道，如果我在意男孩们是否喜欢我——而我当时其实并不在意，但总之，是的。
But there are enough boys who are not like that that, you know, if I had cared whether boys like me or not, which I already didn't then, but, you know Yeah.
我可能会调整自己的行为。
I, you know, I might have modulated my behavior.
但总之。
But Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你确实说得对。
You're definitely right.
确实有这种男孩。
There's definitely boys like that.
而且很多这样的‘男孩’其实已经是成年人了，尽管他们本质上还是孩子，你知道的。
And many of them are actually grown men, although they are actually boys, as you know.
是的。
Yes.
而且永远都不会成为男人。
And will never be men.
永远不会。
Never.
你上过一所全女子私立学校。
You went to an all girls private school.
对吗？
Is that correct?
简而言之，是的。
Briefly, yes.
我的意思是，我整个学生时代都在公立学校读书，后来公立学校通知了我的父母——当你说老师或校长通知家长时，你指的是母亲，因为我们的父亲从未踏进过学校一步。
I mean, I went to public school my whole life, and then the public school told my my parents so for some of my age, when you say a teacher or principal told your parents, you mean your mother because our father's never gotten near a school.
我小时候，我父亲甚至不知道我在几年级。
My father, when I was a child, didn't know what grade I was in.
而且，他是个很好的人，但那时候所有的家长事务都是由母亲负责的。
So and that and he he was he was a lovely man, but that was all men at the time.
所以，如果你希望她上大学，她就不能继续留在那所学校。
So if if you expect her to go to college, she cannot stay in the school.
她各科都挂了。
Was failing everything.
因此，父母不惜巨大的经济牺牲——他们根本没有钱，还是送我去了这所学校的。
So at great financial sacrifice, my parents didn't have any money, they sent me to this yes.
这是一所全女生的圣公会学校，规模小且默默无闻。
It was an all girls Episcopalian school, deservedly small and unknown.
我在那里待了一年多一点，然后就被开除了。
And I lasted there, like, a little more than a year, and then I got expelled.
人们总是问，你做了什么？
And people always say, and what did you do?
好像我做了什么，比如放火烧了学校之类的事。
As if I, you know, did something, you know, like, you know, set fire to the school.
据我所知，我什么都没做。
As far as I knew, I did nothing.
你知道的？
You know?
校长给我的父母写了一封信，说我对其他女生有很坏的影响，还篡夺了她的权威，必须离开。
The headmaster sent a letter to my parents saying she has a very bad influence on the other girls, and she is usurping my power, and she has to be gone.
所以，以事后的角度来看——当然，那是五十年后了——我想我被开除，大概是因为我母亲常说的‘你脸上的那种表情’。
So in in retrospect, which, of course, is like fifty years later more, you know, I think that probably I was expelled for what my mother used to call that look on your face.
对吧。
Right.
所以我以为自己很有礼貌。
So I thought I was being polite.
我总是想，有时候人们会说，你为什么瞪着我？
I always think if I like, sometimes people say, why are you glaring?
而我觉得自己是在微笑。
And I I think I'm smiling.
所以这一定是从我身上自然流露出来的。
So it must be it just emanates for me.
你在那所女子学校待了一年，你喜欢那里吗？
Did you like being at an all girls school for the one year you were there?
你是说你喜欢全是女生这个事实吗？
You mean did I like the fact that it was all girls?
是啊。
Yeah.
如果全世界都是女生，我也无所谓。
I wouldn't mind if the whole world was all girls.
让世界变得更好。
Be a better world.
所以放学后，你搬到了纽约，去给人打扫房子。
So after school, you moved to New York, and you cleaned houses.
你写过色情小说。
You wrote pornography.
你开过出租车。
You drove a cab.
顺便说一下，我有个朋友，以前和我一起在《宋飞正传》工作，是个编剧，他靠写色情小说谋生。
You know, by the way, I have a friend who I used to work with on Seinfeld, a writer, and he wrote pornography to make a living.
他经常得找借口离开去上厕所。
And he had to excuse himself with some frequency to relieve himself.
真的吗？
Really?
我得找借口离开去笑。
I had to excuse myself to laugh.
好吧。
Okay.
这就是男女之间的区别。
That is the difference between men and women.
好吧。
Okay.
我发现实际上做起来挺难的。
I found it to be actually pretty difficult to do.
事实上，我请了这么多人帮我做，最后只赚了大约10美元。
In fact, I enlisted so many people to help me do it that I ended up making, like, $10.
是啊。
Yeah.
但我确实以把我高中开除的校长的名字出版了这本书。
But I did publish this book, under the name of the headmaster who threw me out of high school.
这太棒了。
That's just brilliant.
你多次提到自己患有著名的写作障碍。
You've stated many times you're suffering from a famous case of writer's block.
是什么阻碍了你？
What what's holding you back?
是你的焦虑。
It's your anxiety.
是你的完美主义。
It's your perfectionism.
这么说对吗？
Is that the correct thing to say?
你怎么看？
What do you think?
我的意思是，很多情况其实只是单纯的懒惰。
I mean, I would say that a lot of it is just simple sloth.
你知道的。
You know?
我的意思是，我特别懒。
I mean, I'm incredibly lazy.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
写作非常困难。
Writing is very hard.
我的意思是，我一直在努力对抗它。
I mean, I fight it very hard.
我相信，几乎所有觉得写作非常愉快和享受的作家，都是糟糕的作家。
It's my belief that all writers, almost almost all writers, who find writing very pleasurable and delightful are bad writers.
当人们说‘我爱写作’时，我总是觉得你一定是个糟糕的作家。
When people say I love to write, I always think you must be a horrible writer.
所以，很多事都挺让人难过的。
So, you know, a lot of it's sad.
可能这正是我的编辑常说的，当我向别人介绍他是我的编辑时，他总说：‘这可是城里最轻松的工作。’
And probably what it is is what my editor, who when I introduced him to people as my editor, always says, easiest job in town.
我的编辑曾经向我描述它为对文字的过度执着。
My editor once described it to me as your excessive reference for the written word.
我认为这也是你刚才所说的完美主义。
And I think that's also what you just described as perfectionism.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我明白了。
I get it.
那治疗呢？
I what about therapy?
你曾经接受过治疗吗？
Have you ever been been in therapy?
上高中时我接受过。
When I was in high school, I was.
学校送我去的。
The school sent me to it.
哦。
Oh.
所以在我二十多岁的时候，我短暂地去过一次，就那一次。
So and then I was briefly when I was in my twenties, and that's it.
说实话，很多人会说，你应该去见我的心理医生。
And truthfully, I mean, lots of people say, you should go to my therapist.
我已经去那里四十年了。
I've been going to it for forty years.
我总是想，你会告诉我去找我的医生吗？
I always think, would you tell me you should go to my doctor?
我有这种病，他一直治疗了四十年。
I have this illness, and he's been treating it for forty years.
我会告诉你，去一个能治好它的地方。
I would tell you, go to some place where they're gonna cure it.
此外，我知道这听起来甚至不可能，但说实话，我对自己的兴趣并不大。
So additionally, I know this doesn't sound even possible, but truthfully, I'm not that interested in myself.
你知道，我可能在二十多岁时就不再纠结于这类问题了。
You know, I lost that kind of issues myself probably in my twenties.
我真的相信，除非你疯了，否则总会有一个时候，你不能再一直想着同一个人。
I I really believe unless you're nuts, there comes a point where you can't keep thinking about the same person all the time.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
尤其是你自己。
Especially yourself.
尤其是我自己。
Especially myself.
我知道我做的一些事情可能并不是对我有利的，也许有人能找出原因，但我并不在意。
You know, I I'm sure there's all kinds of reasons why I do things that are perhaps not, you know, a good idea for me, and perhaps someone could find out why, but I don't really care.
我的意思是我并没有犯罪。
I mean, it's not like I'm committing crimes.
我又不是在抢劫银行之类的，对吧？
It's not like I'm, you know, holding up banks or you know?
所以我做的那些可能有害的事情，伤害的都是我自己。
So the things that I'm doing that are probably harmful, they're harmful to me.
是的。
Yeah.
你具体在做哪些伤害自己的事情？
What are the things you're doing that are harmful to you?
抽烟，毫无疑问。
Smoking, no doubt.
哦，抽烟啊。
Oh, well, smoking.
是的。
Yeah.
但人们对吸烟的看法，普遍认为吸烟是一种可怕的品格缺陷。
But smoking people's ideas about smoking are kind people general the general idea about smoking is that it is a horrible character flaw.
你知道吗？
You know?
但事实上，这是一种成瘾。
But really what it is is an addiction.
这就是本质。
That's what it is.
我12岁的时候就开始吸烟了。
I started smoking when I was 12.
而且，到12岁的时候，我已经每天抽一包了。
And, I mean, by the time I was 12, I smoked a pack a day.
所以这是一种根深蒂固的成瘾。
So it's a very deep seated addiction.
天哪。
My god.
我实际上并不觉得自己有资格戒烟。
I actually do not feel equal to quitting.
我永远做不到。
I could never do it.
你从未尝试过戒烟吗？
You've never tried to quit?
从未。
Never.
你连试都没试过？
You've never even tried?
从未。
Never.
难以置信。
Unbelievable.
我从来没试过去参加奥运会，你知道的。
I never tried, you know, to get into the Olympics either.
有些事情我知道自己绝对做不到。
There's certain things I know I could not do.
我从不去尝试。
I don't try them.
但你不喝酒。
But you don't drink.
对吧？
Right?
对。
No.
我19岁的时候就戒酒了。
I stopped drinking when I was 19.
我19岁时戒掉了饮酒和吸毒，因为那时我已经病得不行了。
When I was 19, I stopped drinking and taking drugs because I was by that point so sick.
我无法告诉你。
I cannot tell you.
因为我逐渐相信，人一出生，就被赋予了一生中使用酒精和毒品的能力，你可以在21到80岁之间使用，也可以在15到19岁之间使用。
And because I've come to believe that at birth, you know, we're kind of granted, you know, a lifetime ability to drink and take drugs, and you can do it all between 21 and 80 or between 15 and 19.
我在15到19岁之间做了，就到此为止了。
I did it between 15 to 19, and that's it.
你必须停止。
You have to stop.
你只是因为这样而生病了，对吧。
And you just got sick from being Yeah.
感觉糟透了。
Felt horrible.
我服用过很多安非他命。
I took a lot of speed.
我吸过可卡因，它会让你感觉非常糟糕。
I took cocaine, and it makes you feel horrible.
所以，我真的感觉非常糟糕，医生告诉我，你活不到30岁。
So, I mean, I really felt horrible, and the doctor told me, you are never gonna live to be 30.
当时我19岁，我想，你看。
Now at the time, since I was 19, I thought, look.
谁想活到那么老呢？
Who wants to live to be that old?
对吧。
Right.
但我戒了，我再也没碰过。
But, you know, I stopped, and I I'm I'm never of them.
对我来说这并不难。
And it it wasn't very hard for me.
所以我不是在说，我做了什么了不起的事。
So I'm not I'm not saying I did this, you know, incredible thing.
这其实一点都不难，因为我马上就觉得好多了。
It it just wasn't very hard because I right away, I felt better.
那在纽约变老呢？
What about getting older in New York?
这种体验是什么样的？
What's that experience like?
我觉得更好。
I think it's better.
我的意思是，我认为纽约是个更好的地方。
I mean, I think New York's a better place to be.
是的。
Yeah.
我同意这一点。
I agree with that.
你知道，在纽约，有很多事情你根本不用做，但在郊区，或者我想，农村地区，你却不得不做——我不知道即使你年轻时在那里到底该做什么。
There's all kinds of things, you know, that you don't have to do in New York that you have to do in the suburbs or, I guess, also in rural places where, you know, I don't know what you do there even if you're young.
但我认为这是个更好的地方，因为首先，这里有数不清的各种服务。
But I think it's a better place because, first of all, there's tons and tons of services.
你知道吗？
You know?
你得让一切都被送上门。
You gotta have everything delivered.
这里有成千上万的人。
There's tons and tons of people.
我无法相信有人会离开纽约去佛蒙特州养老。
I can't believe people leave New York to get old in Vermont.
这看起来太荒谬了。
It it seems ridiculous.
你不知道佛蒙特州的情况吗？
Don't you know that in Vermont?
你知道的？
You know?
首先，那里没有门卫。
First of all, there are no doormen.
你知道，门卫对所有人都很有帮助。
You know, doormen are very good for all people.
我觉得对所有人来说都很好。
They're good for all people, I think.
但你知道，佛蒙特州没有门卫。
But, you know, there are no doormen in Vermont.
这些乡村地区，你知道的，都没有门卫。
There are no doormen in these rural, you know, places.
我觉得那里更适合养老。
I think it's a better place to be old.
我觉得那里也更适合年轻人。
I think it's a better place to be young.
是的。
Yeah.
我真的认为这世界上有一个巨大的分歧，我经常旅行，就是喜欢城市的人和讨厌城市的人之间的区别。
I I really think that's a big divide in the world, and I travel quite a bit, is between people who like cities and people who hate cities.
你知道，我出生在纽约，一直住到八岁左右。
You know, I was born in New York, and I'd lived there until I was, like, eight.
然后我们搬走了，但我经常往返两地。
Then we moved away, but I went back and forth.
事实上，我们最终又在纽约买了一处房子，我对此非常开心。
And, actually, finally, we bought a place again in New York about which I'm very happy.
但我要说，在城市里生活的体验，还有声音——
But I will say the experience of being in the city and the sound of
我
I
我觉得我是唯一一个喜欢汽车喇叭声的人，因为那让我以一种非常温馨的方式想起我的童年，还有公交车的声音。
think I'm the only person who likes the sound of cars honking in traffic because it reminds me of my youth in a really cozy way, you know, and buses, the sounds of buses.
我非常喜欢这种声音。
I love that sound.
我认为在纽约最放松的事，就是在下午六点躺在客厅的沙发上小睡，听着被困在出租车里的人们的声音入眠。
The most relaxing thing I think you could do, New York, is to take a nap in your living room on your sofa at, like, 06:00 in the afternoon and sleep to the sounds of other people trapped in cabs.
你知道吗？
You know?
当你听到喇叭声和叫喊声时，感觉特别放松。
When you hear the honking and the yelling and the it's so relaxing.
你会想，那不是我。
You think, that's not me.
我正躺在这张可爱的沙发上。
I'm on this lovely sofa.
是的。
Yeah.
我喜欢这样。
I love that.
是的。
Yeah.
太棒了。
It's fantastic.
短暂广告后，继续聆听弗兰·莱博维茨的更多内容。
There's more with Fran Lebowitz after this short break.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
无论你看向哪里，都有人告诉你获取蛋白质的正确方式。
Everywhere you look, someone's telling you the right way to get protein.
豆腐、鸡肉、三文鱼、蛋白粉、能量棒、奶昔，甚至还有所谓的蛋白水。
Tofu, chicken, salmon, powders, bars, shakes, even things like protein water.
选择无穷无尽，噪音也同样没完没了。
The options are endless, and so is the noise.
老实说，大多数日子，这都让人不知所措。
And honestly, most days, it's overwhelming.
你只想要一种快速、可靠且真正好吃的东西。
You just want something that's quick, reliable, and actually tastes good.
这就是我们的赞助商Ratio Protein的用武之地。
That's where our sponsor, Ratio Protein comes in.
Ratio Protein酸奶每杯含有25克蛋白质。
Ratio Protein yogurt has 25 grams of protein per cup.
这比四个鸡蛋的蛋白质含量还高，使Ratio成为酸奶货架上每杯蛋白质含量最高的产品，而且完全不含添加糖。
That's more protein than four eggs, making Ratio the most protein per cup in the yogurt aisle, all without any added sugar.
你获得的是含有全部九种必需氨基酸的完整蛋白质，不含任何添加糖，而且这种营养能帮助你的身体构建和修复细胞与组织，所有这些都浓缩在一种你几秒钟就能拿起来吃的食物里。
You're getting a complete protein with all nine essential amino acids, zero grams of added sugar, and the kind of fuel that helps your body build and repair cells and tissue, all in something you can grab and eat in seconds.
如果你购买24盎司的大包装，还可以进一步延长它的用途：做成酸奶蘸酱、拌入你最爱的食谱中增添顺滑口感，轻松补充蛋白质，无需额外麻烦。
And if you grab the 24 ounce tub, you can stretch it even further, make it into yogurt dips, swirl it into your favorite recipes for a creamy kick, and round out your protein intake without any extra fuss.
与许多其他选择不同，Ratio Protein质地顺滑绵密，因此在达成蛋白质目标时，无需牺牲美味。
Unlike a lot of other options, ratio protein has a smooth and creamy texture, so there's no need to compromise great taste when hitting protein goals.
Ratio已经帮你算好了，你不必再费心计算。
Ratio does the math, so you don't have to.
前往ratiofood.com查找你附近的零售商。
Head to ratiofood.com to find a retailer near you.
嘿，Prime会员们。
Hey, Prime members.
你知道吗？你可以在亚马逊音乐上无广告收听《比我想得更聪明》？
Did you know you can listen to wiser than me ad free on Amazon Music?
今天就下载亚马逊音乐应用，开始无广告收听吧。
Download the Amazon Music app today to start listening ad free.
本集由BetterHelp赞助播出。
This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp.
每个家庭都有自己的传统。
Every family has traditions.
有些人喝热巧克力，有些人唱颂歌，有些人则对土豆泥有着非常强烈的意见。
Some drink hot chocolate, some sing carols, and some share very strong opinions over the mashed potatoes.
很多时候，以上这些都会同时发生，但今年正是反思你个人传统或创造新传统的绝佳时机，比如烤你祖母的饼干、在清冷的空气中散步，甚至通过治疗留出一些反思的时间。
Oftentimes, it's all of the above, but this year is the perfect time to reflect on your personal traditions or create new ones, like baking your grandmother's cookies or taking a walk in the crisp air or even adding time for reflection through therapy.
BetterHelp将你与完全持证的美国治疗师连接起来，帮助你为自己留出一些时间。
BetterHelp connects you with fully licensed US therapists who can help you take some time for yourself.
假期可能充满欢乐、连接与庆祝，但也可能带来压力或孤独感。
The holidays can be joyful, full of connection, and celebration, but they can also be stressful or lonely.
在旅行、家庭期望和必须面面俱到的压力之间，很容易忽视自己的需求。
Between travel, family expectations, and the pressure to do it all, it's easy to lose sight of your own needs.
BetterHelp的匹配过程会考虑你的需求和偏好，因此大多数客户第一次就能找到合适的治疗师。
BetterHelp's matching process takes your needs and preferences into account, so most clients find the right therapist the first time.
如果不合适，更换也很容易。
And if it's not a fit, switching is easy.
照顾好自己至关重要。
Taking care of yourself is essential.
即使是一些小小的自我关怀、反思或设定界限，也能改变你对这个季节的体验。
Even small moments of self care, reflection, or setting boundaries can transform how you experience the season.
拥有三万多名治疗师，服务超过五百万人，并在一百七十万条评价中获得4.9分（满分5分）的平均评分，BetterHelp 是全球规模最大、最受信赖的在线心理治疗平台之一。
With 30,000 plus therapists, over 5,000,000 people served, and a 4.9 out of five average rating from 1,700,000 reviews, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest and most trusted online therapy platforms.
今年十二月，通过照顾好自己，开启一项新传统。
This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you.
我们的听众在 betterhelp.com/wiser 可享受10%的折扣。
Our listeners get 10% off at betterhelp.com/wiser.
网址是 betterhelp.com/wiser。
That's better,help,.com/wiser.
你曾说过，你最需要的两件事是抽烟和策划复仇。
You once said that your two greatest needs are smoking cigarettes and plotting revenge.
如果情况还是这样，那你现在在策划向谁报复？
And if that's still the case, who are you currently plotting revenge against?
你知道的。
You know?
这就像，我们没时间了。
This is like, we don't have the time.
好吧？
Alright?
哎呀，别这样。
Oh, come on.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
我们有的是时间。
We have all the time in the world.
我会买下工作室一整天的时间。
I'll I'll buy the studio the rest of the day.
去吧。
Go.
去吧。
Go.
不。
No.
这名单很长。
It's a very long list.
事实上，你知道，人们总说这并不令人满足。
And the truth is that, you know, people always say it's not satisfying.
你知道吗？
You know?
这非常令人满足。
It's very satisfying.
我的意思是，每次我有机会真正实施我的计划时，都让我感到无比满足。
And I I I mean, the the times I've had the opportunity to actually execute my plans, it's been incredibly satisfying to me.
我想提醒你的是，现在我脑海中想到的那几件事，我当然不会详细解释，那个人甚至根本不知道是我做的。
And I would point out to you that, you know, the few the few things that come to my mind right now, which I'm certainly not gonna explain, the person didn't even know it, that it was me.
你知道吗？
You know?
但我总是会注意到，真的吗？
But I always note, like, really?
你做的这件事？
You did this?
好吧。
Okay.
你知道吗？
You know?
几乎总能找到办法去报复那个人。
There's there's almost always a way to get back at the person.
当然，现在这种行为在文化中是被极力反对的，因为宽恕如今是人们被要求践行的主要品质之一。
And people of course, this is something incredibly discouraged in the culture now, because forgiveness is one of the, you know, primary things people are supposed to practice now.
我觉得，这对我来说再陌生不过了。
And I think, like, this is there's nothing more alien to me than this.
你知道吗？
You know?
说实话，宽恕实际上就是基督教的核心。
Truthfully, you know, what is forgiveness is actually Christianity.
你知道吗？
You know?
我的意思是，以前所有人都是犹太人，然后基督来了。
I mean, everyone was Jewish, then Christ came.
基督说：我会宽恕你。
Christ said, I'll forgive you.
99%的人说：你就是我们要找的人。
99% of people said, oh, you're our guy.
想想那些不这么想的人。
Think of the people who didn't.
那些是我的敌人。
Those are my exescens.
明白吗？
Okay?
他们说：不，不行。
They're the ones who said, oh, no.
我们不想被宽恕，也不会宽恕任何人。
We don't wanna be forgiven, and we're not gonna forgive anyone.
所以，嗯。
So Uh-huh.
你知道，犹太教的神是审判者，而基督教的神是宽恕的殉道者。
You know, the Jewish god is a judge, and the Christian god is a forgiving martyr.
所以那不是我。
So that is not me.
我不宽恕任何人，我是个特别记仇的人，得说老实话。
And I don't forgive people, and I am like an incredible grudge holder, I have to say.
我知道这不是一个令人愉快的特质，但这确实是我的本性。
I know it's not a delightful trait, but it is truthfully my trait.
我猜你不会让这些怨恨侵蚀你。
I'm assuming that you don't allow these grudges to eat away at you.
对吧？
Right?
这当然是怨恨的问题所在。
This is the problem, of course, with a grudge.
不。
No.
人们就是这么说的。
This is what people say.
人们说，这样做对你自己来说是痛苦的。
People say, you know, that that is painful to you to do that.
你知道吗？
You know?
你知道吗？
That you know?
我实际上一点也不觉得痛苦。
I actually don't find it painful at all.
所以，你知道，对我来说，这和坚持标准是一回事。
And so, you know, I find it to me, it is the same thing as having standards.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
我觉得这是一种道德行为。
I feel that it's, you know, it's it's it's an act of morality.
等等。
Wait.
你得给我举个例子，说明有谁做了错事。
I you have got to give me an example of somebody who did something wrong, please.
这永远不会发生。
That is never gonna happen.
好吧。
Alright.
行。
Fine.
所以我想
So I
我甚至对完全不认识的人怀恨在心。
also hold grudges against people that I don't know at all.
明白吗？
Alright?
然后我根本不会有任何机会。
And then I'm not gonna have any opportunity.
有一些已经去世的政治家，我至今仍对他们生气。
So there are politicians who are dead that I'm still angry at.
明白吗？
Alright?
并不是我有机会对这些政客做些什么，我完全不是在说暴力行为。
It's not that I had an opportunity to do something to the politicians, and I'm not talking about violent things at all.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但只要提到他们的名字，我就会想，对，就是他。
But if their name comes up, I'll think, yeah.
我讨厌那个家伙。
I I hated that guy.
我到现在 still 痛恨那个家伙。
I still hate that guy.
我们来看看我能不能从这个角度来处理。
We'll see if I can come at it this way.
你能给我一些建议，怎么报复吗？
Can you give me a tip on getting revenge?
你有什么报复的建议吗？
Do you have any tips for getting revenge?
你知道吗，有时候有人做了某事，我会想，你是不是疯了？
You know, sometimes someone does something, and what what I think is, are you out of your mind?
你难道不知道我认识某某，而且我知道你想要这个人手里的东西？
Do you not realize that I know so and so, and I know you want this thing from this person?
而你是得不到的。
And you're not gonna get it.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
好吧。
Okay.
所以这会是一个很好的例子。
So that would be a good example.
而且，你知道，我根本不认识你。
And I, you know, I don't know you at all.
我只见过你一次，但我猜这对你也适用。
I've only met you, but I am guessing that that would work for you too.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道还有什么其他你可能想猜的吗？
You know what else you might wanna guess?
我做过同样的事。
That I've done the same thing.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我也不会跟你分享那些，怎么说呢，报复性应对措施的具体情况。
And I too will not share with you the circumstances of the, shall I say, the revenge workaround.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
有时候，我喜欢说，这是二十五年前发生的事，我最近远远地看到了那个人。
Sometimes I I like this is something that happened, like, twenty five years ago, and I recently saw this guy from a distance.
我当时真想忍住没说：你有没有想过，为什么你没拿到那个奖学金？
And I thought had to restrain myself from saying, did you ever wonder why you didn't get that fellowship?
是的。
Yeah.
这很好。
That's very good.
那朋友呢？
But what about having friends?
你说你有很多比你年长的朋友，因为你希望向他们学习，但坏消息是，当你到了四十岁的时候，他们都已经因年老去世了。
You said that you've had a lot of friends who are older than you because you wanted to learn from them, but then the bad news is is that when you're in four you're in when you were in your forties, they died from old age.
确实如此。
It's true.
我的意思是，我有很多比自己年长的朋友，其中一个原因是，我刚到纽约时，同龄人大多还在上学。
I mean, there's I mean, one reason I had a lot of friends older than me is because when I came to New York, most people my age that I would know were in school still.
啊。
Ah.
周围的所有人都是比我年长的。
All the people that are around were, you know, older than me.
但我一直觉得，我更喜欢和年长的人在一起，因为他们懂得比我多。
But I always, you know, I would say preferred the company of older people because they knew more than me.
我为什么要和懂得更少的人待在一起呢？
Why would I wanna be around people who know less?
对啊。
Right.
你知道的吧？
You know?
他们懂得比我多。
So they knew more than me.
确实，当我进入三十多岁时，一些朋友就已经因年老而去世了。
It is true that by the time I was even in my thirties, some of my friends were dying of old age.
哇。
Wow.
那时候他们比你懂些什么呢？
What did they know more than you at that point?
所有事情。
Everything.
你想一想。
Think about it.
我的意思是，我不知道你多大，但我已经62岁了。
I mean, I don't know how old you are, but, you know I'm 62.
好吧。
Okay.
你比22岁的人懂得更多。
You know more than someone who's 22.
我不在乎那个22岁的人是谁。
I don't care who the 22 year old is.
你可能不是在所有事情上都懂得更多。
You may not know more about everything.
那个22岁的人可能是某种科学天才，但一般来说。
The 22 year old may be some sort of scientific genius, but in general.
你懂的？
You know?
是啊。
Yeah.
所以，和比你懂得更多的人在一起会更有趣。
And so it's just more interesting to be around people who know more than you.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
天啊，我希望每个人都有这种感觉。
God, I wish everybody felt that way.
你和托妮·莫里森有着非常详尽的友谊。
So you have a very well documented friendship with Toni Morrison.
我们比任何人都更亲近。
We're new more than everybody.
我猜也是。
I bet.
失去托妮·莫里森，那种悲伤是什么样的？
Losing Toni Morrison, what's that grief like?
是不是痛彻心扉？
Has it been gutting?
你知道，没有哪个人像……我认识很多去世的人，当然。
You know, there's no person like, I know tons of people who died, obviously.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，你知道，你会想念所有你关心的那些逝去的人。
And, you know, you miss, like, all the people you cared for that died.
我这辈子从未像想念托尼那样想念过任何人。
I've never in my life missed anyone like I miss Tony ever.
为什么会这样？
Why is this?
嗯，我的意思是，首先，我会说，即使我们不总是在一起，只要没见到她，我每周至少会给她打五六个电话，每次聊上一个小时。
Well, I mean, first of all, I, you know, I would say that I talked to her at least you know, if I didn't see her, because we weren't always in the same place, you know, I caught her at least, like, five or six times a week for, like, an hour on the phone.
所以她一直是我生活中不可或缺的存在。
So she was such a constant presence in my life.
而且这持续了四十多年。
And this is for, like, oh, more than forty years.
但更重要的是，我知道很多非常聪明的人，但我只认识一个真正有智慧的人，那就是托尼。
But also because, you know, I I've known, you know, tons and tons of smart people, but I've only ever known one wise person, and that was Tony.
所以，你知道，这不仅仅是托尼非常聪明。
So, you know, it isn't just that Tony was very smart.
每个人都知道托尼非常聪明。
Everyone knows Tony was very smart.
所以当新冠疫情发生时，我的编辑——也是托尼的编辑——给我打了电话，我们像所有人一样谈论着新冠疫情。
So when COVID happened, my editor, who was also Tony's editor, called me, and we were talking about COVID like everyone was talking about it.
我说，你是不是比以往更想念托尼了？
And I said, don't you miss Tony more than ever?
他回答说，是的。
And he said, yes.
我说，那是因为托尼知道该如何思考这个问题。
And I said, it's because Tony would know how to think about this.
因为当新冠疫情发生时，我不知道该如何去思考它。
Because what I didn't know when COVID happened was how to think about it.
哦。
Oh.
我根本不知道该怎么思考这个问题。
I had no way to think about it.
我知道我对它有什么感受。
I knew how I felt about it.
你知道吗？
You know?
但你知道，与大多数美国同胞不同，我清楚思考和感受之间的区别。
I've but, you know, unlike most of my fellow Americans, I know the difference between think and feel.
人们会刻意说‘我觉得这样’‘我觉得那样’，而我心里想的是：你根本没在思考。
People consciously say, I think this, I think that, and I'm thinking, you think nothing.
这些是感受，不是想法。
You feel these are feelings, not thoughts.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以我想到，尽管托尼还没老到能经历过1918年的流感大流行，我仍会说：托尼，你怎么看？
So I thought, Tony even though Tony even Tony wasn't old enough to have lived through the, you know, flu epidemic of nineteen eighteen, I would have said, Tony, what do you think?
该怎么思考这个问题？
How to think about this?
她本会知道，或者她会说：我不知道。
And she would have known, or she would have said, I don't know.
我正在思考这件事。
I'm thinking about it.
但她本会有个答案。
But she would have had an answer.
你知道吗？
You know?
任何你爱的人，当他们去世时，你都会想念他们。
Any person that you love when you when they die, you know, you miss them.
在你的情感中，那个人是不可替代的。
And that person in your emotions is irreplaceable.
但托尼不仅仅是不可替代的。
But Tony was not only irreplaceable.
她在这个世界上是不可替代的，不仅仅是在我的情感中。
She's just irreplaceable in the world, not just in my emotions.
因为她的离去，这个世界变得更糟了。
And the the world is worse off because she's not here.
不只是弗兰过得更糟，或者她的朋友们过得更糟。
Not just Fran is worse off or her friends are worse off.
当我看到人们聆听她时，我的意思不是说他们完全照她的话去做，但大家都认可她是值得倾听的人。
When I see people listen to her, I mean, I don't mean they absolutely did what she said, but she was recognized as being someone you ought to listen to.
如果可以的话，你觉得她告诉过你最明智的话是什么？
And what's the wisest if you can say, what's the wisest thing she told you?
比如，托尼是个非常宽容的人。
Well, for instance, Tony was a very forgiving person.
托尼是个极其宽容的人，以至于你读她的作品时会发现，就连她笔下的反派角色，她也赋予了同情心。
Toni was an extremely forgiving person to the extent that if you when you read her, you see that even her villainous characters, she portrays empathetically.
嗯。
Mhmm.
不管怎么说，这些人可能是世界上最糟糕的人，但其中一些人出现在她的书中，看看这些角色。
And no matter you know, they could be the world's worst people, some of these people are in her books, see the characters.
但即使在现实生活中，许多世界上最糟糕的人，她常常会说，是的，但是。
But even in actual real life, many of the world's worst people, you know, she would very often say, yes, but.
比如，不是我。
Like, not me.
我觉得，那个家伙才是最糟糕的人。
Me is like, that guy's the worst person.
你们是怎么认识的？
How'd you guys meet?
人们经常问我，你是怎么认识人的。
You know, people very often ask me how I meet people.
我通常也不知道。
I usually don't know.
尤其是马蒂，人们经常问我们。
Like, especially Marty, people ask us.
我们俩都不记得是怎么认识的了，对吧。
Neither one of us know how we met Right.
也不记得是在哪儿认识的。
Or where we met.
我清楚地记得我是什么时候、在哪里认识托尼的。
I exactly remember when and where I met Tony.
那是因为当时有，或者现在可能还有个叫美国诗人学院的东西。
And that is because there either used to be or still is something called, like, the American Academy of Poets.
他们曾经举办，或者现在可能还在举办，在麦克多诺图书馆的诗歌朗诵系列，我知道那个图书馆现在已经不存在了。
And they used to run, or maybe they still do, a reading series at the library, McDonough Library, which I know was not there any longer.
他们举办了这个朗诵系列，给我寄了一封信，我总是对年轻人说，是一封信，一张寄来的纸。
They had this reading series, and they sent me a letter, like a I always say to people who are young, a letter, A piece of paper in the mail.
一封真正的信。
An actual letter.
信上说，我们有一个朗诵系列，想邀请你在某个日期来朗读。
And the letter said, we have this reading series, and we would like to invite you to read such and such a date.
我记得那是1978年。
And I remember that it was 1978.
好吧。
Alright.
就这样发生了。
That just happened.
那是我的第一本书。
It was my first book.
所以那个人写了他的电话号码。
So the guy put his phone number.
我用座机给他打了电话，说：好的。
I called him up on a phone landline, and I said, yes.
我很乐意参加。
I'd like to do this.
他说：好的。
And he said, alright.
我们总是安排两位作家一起朗读。
We always have two people, two writers reading together.
你知道托妮·莫里森是谁吗？
Do you know who Toni Morrison is?
她已经出版过书籍，但并不太出名。
She had published books, but she was not very well known.
她当时还在兰登书屋担任编辑，哦。
She was still working at Random House as an editor Oh.
因为她从书稿中赚的钱不够多。
Because she wasn't making enough money from her books.
好的。
Okay.
所以她有两个孩子。
So she had two kids.
于是我回答：好的。
So I said, yes.
我知道。
I do.
他说：你喜欢她的作品吗？
He said, do you like her writing?
我说：哦，我非常喜欢她的作品。
I said, oh, I love her writing.
他说：我们觉得你们应该一起朗读。
He said, well, we thought you should read together.
我说：这太荒谬了。
I said, that's ridiculous.
他说：你为什么这么说？
He said, why do you say that?
我说：我们太不一样了。
I said, we're too different.
是啊。
Yeah.
这是一种奇怪的组合。
It's a bizarre combination.
他说，我们认为这是一个不错的组合。
He said, well, we think it's a good combination.
你反对吗？
Do you object to it?
我说，不反对。
I said, no.
一点也不反对。
Not at all.
只是感觉很不协调，你知道的。
It just seems like just, you know, incongruous.
是的。
Yes.
顺便说一句，当一切结束时，托尼说，这是一个绝佳的组合。
And by the way, trying to be a great combination, when it was over, Tony said, this is a great combination.
让我们一起上路吧，虽然我们并没有真的这么做，但我们立刻成了朋友。
Let's go on the road together, which we did not do, but we instantly became friends.
我的意思是，我从未有过这种瞬间建立的友谊。
I mean, I've never had a friendship instant.
就像你所说的，那种一见钟情的浪漫可以瞬间发生，但友谊不行。
Like, you know, that's like a romance you have instantly, not a friendship.
你知道的吧？
You know?
所以我清楚地记得那是在什么时候。
And so I know exactly when it was.
那是1978年。
It was 1978.
哦，这是个很棒的故事。
Oh, that's a great story.
我喜欢这个。
I love that.
什么才能让人有资格成为你的朋友？
What qualifies someone to be your friend?
我问这个问题是因为，实际上，我真的很想成为你的朋友。
I'm asking this question because, actually, I would really like to be your friend.
我的意思是，你知道，这并不难。
I mean, you know, it's not that hard.
嗯，对我来说，有一件非常重要的事。
Well, to me, you know, a very important thing.
首先，我要说，对我来说，最重要的关系是友谊。
First of all, I have to say that to me, the most important relationships are friendships.
我知道每个人都觉得，你知道，是你的配偶。
I know everyone thinks it's, you know, your spouse.
你知道吗？
You know?
我不赞同。
I don't agree.
这就是我没有配偶的原因。
And that's why I don't have a spouse.
当然，每个人都会觉得是你的家人。
It's certainly not you know, everyone thinks it's your family.
当人们这么说时，我想，呃，我不懂，我真的不明白。
And when people say this, I think, like, I don't I I don't understand.
你知道吗？
You know?
对我来说，家庭总的来说就像是制造疯狂的工厂。
Families to me are, like, generally speaking, factories for the manufacture of insanity.
友谊是我们唯一主动选择的关系。
Friendships are the only relationships we choose.
是的。
Yeah.
它们是我们真正主动选择的关系。
They're the only relationships we really choose.
我们当然无法选择自己的家人。
We don't choose our family, obviously.
人们以为你会选择浪漫伴侣。
People think you choose, you know, romantic partners.
你其实不会。
You don't.
那是一种对某人产生的化学反应。
That is oh, that's the kind of chemical response to someone.
到我22岁的时候，我就明白了这一点。
By the time I was 22, I knew that.
我会发现自己对某人产生强烈的吸引力。
I I would, like, feel myself, be very attracted to someone.
我知道这个人很糟糕，我会想这肯定会是一场噩梦，但我就是不在乎。
I would know the person was horrible, and I would think this is gonna be a nightmare, and I I don't care.
所以这种欲望有多强烈。
So that's how strong that desire is.
你知道吗？
You know?
但这不是选择。
But it's not a choice.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以对我来说，选择就像是看菜单。
So to me, a choice is you look at a menu.
我喜欢看菜单，因为这是唯一我知道可以随心所欲的时候。
I like I love to look at menus because it's the only time I know I can have whatever I want.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而且这确实是真的，朋友们。
And that's true, friends.
所以对我来说，朋友们，这非常重要。
So to me, friends, it's very important.
有很多品质。
There's a number of qualities.
好的。
Okay.
首先，他们必须有幽默感，我的意思是他们不一定非得搞笑。
First of all, they have to have a a sense of humor, by which I mean they don't have to be funny.
拥有很好的幽默感并不意味着你本人搞笑。
Having a great sense of humor doesn't mean you're funny.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这意味着你知道什么是有趣的。
This means you know things are funny.
没错。
That's right.
你知道吧？
You know?
我甚至能从婴儿身上看出来。
I made even with babies, I could tell this.
每当有人给我看他们的新生儿时，人们都会说：‘给弗兰看看你的宝宝，因为弗兰能判断出宝宝是不是聪明。',
Whenever people show me their new baby, like, would people would say, show Fran your baby because Fran could tell if the baby's smart.
你知道吗？
You know?
我会看着婴儿。
I look at the baby.
我会观察婴儿的眼睛，你能看出婴儿是否聪明，因为你能看到婴儿是否有幽默感。
I look at the baby's eyes, and you can see if the baby's smart because you'll see if the baby has sense of humor.
所以，幽默感就是这个意思。
So a sense of humor means that.
幽默感。
A sense of humor.
是的。
Yes.
一种觉得事情有趣的感觉。
A sense that things are funny.
是的。
Yes.
所以这非常重要，忠诚也非常重要。
So that's very important, and loyalty is very important.
这真的很重要。
It's really important.
我得说，我是个出色的家人，尽管这份付出没有得到回报。
I I have to say that I was an fantastic family member, although this was not returned.
我是个糟糕的女友，世界上最差的，但我是个绝佳的朋友。
I am a horrible girlfriend, the world's worst, but I'm a fantastic friend.
我极其忠诚，极其忠诚。
I'm incredibly loyal incredibly loyal.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那什么
And what
这种忠诚表现为什么样子？
does that loyalty look like?
这意味着我总是为那个人辩护。
It means that I always defend that person.
我从不放弃为他们辩护。
I never don't defend them.
无论那个人是谁，我都不允许任何人攻击他们，或以任何方式表达对我的朋友的不敬。
I don't care who the person is in any way, not just attacking them, but in any way expressing anything but adoration for my friend.
这意味着你会帮助他们。
Though it means you help them.
他们也会帮助你。
They help you.
你知道吗？
You know?
这意味着即使你知道他们错了，你也可以告诉他们他们错了，但你不会告诉别人。
It means that even if you know they're wrong, you can tell them they're wrong, but you don't tell other people.
嗯。
Mhmm.
当你告诉他们错了的时候，你会小心翼翼、温和地讲吗？
And when you tell them they're wrong, do you do it gingerly and gently?
不会。
No.
有时候我会大喊大叫。
Sometimes I'm yelling.
有时候我会说，不。
Sometimes I say, no.
你完全错了。
You're absolutely wrong.
你知道吗？
They you know?
我并不总是温和而小心的。
I'm not always gingerly and gently.
我想在你回答之前我就知道答案了。
I I I guess I knew the answer to that before you gave it.
不。
No.
不。
No.
你所说的‘糟糕的女朋友’是什么意思？
And how are you what do you mean your terrible girlfriend?
让我这么说吧。
Let me put it this way.
我有一辆车，是1978年买的。
I have a car that I bought in 1978.
这是我一生中唯一一段一夫一妻的关系。
It is the only monogamous relationship of my life.
那是因为我爱这辆车，而且我从不觉得它无聊。
That is because I love the car and because I'm never bored by the car.
每次看到这辆车，我都想，多美的车啊。
And every time I see the car, I think, what a beautiful car.
我把车的照片贴在冰箱里，而别人那里贴的是人。
And I have a picture of my car in my refrigerator where other people would have a human.
所以我绝对总是出轨。
And so I absolutely I always cheat.
总是。
Always.
你知道，我不会放弃它是毫无疑问的。
You know, it's it's out of the question that I won't.
明白吗？
Alright?
我不想和任何人住在一起。
I don't wanna live with anyone.
我从19岁起就独自生活了，这对一个女同性恋来说是一项了不起的成就。
I've lived by myself since I was, like, 19 years old, and that is an incredible achievement for a lesbian.
让我向你保证。
Let me assure you.
我不想和任何人住在一起。
I don't wanna live with anyone.
我不想听到任何我不熟悉的脚步声。
I don't wanna hear any footsteps that I don't know are coming in.
我公寓里有一把钥匙。
There's a key to my apartment.
那是我的钥匙。
It's my key.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
我不是谢丽那种类型。
I'm not a Sherry type.
你听到可能会很惊讶。
You might be shocked to hear.
但我的意思是，有没有过你觉得自己出轨的情况？
But, I mean, like, has there been a circumstance in which you say you cheat?
所以你生命中有没有过这样的时候，心想：这次我绝不出轨？
So were there times in your life where you thought, I'm not gonna cheat this time?
没有。
No.
或者没有。
Or no.
你一直都知道。
You always knew it.
是的。
Yeah.
我一直都知道。
I always knew it.
我也总是这么说。
I also always say it.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
但当然，没人相信。
But, of course, no one believes it.
是的。
Yeah.
他们觉得，嗯，我不是这样的人。
They think, well, not me.
像我这一生中，你知道的，发生过无数次，因为我年纪大了。
Like, I had in my whole life, you know, and I there have been zillions because I'm old.
有一个女朋友，每个人都喜欢她，因为她完美无瑕。
One girlfriend that everyone loved because she was perfect.
曾经有人问我：你为什么和她分手？
And someone once said to me, why did you break up with her?
我说，因为她对我而言太好了。
And I said, because she was too good for me.
这是真的。
And it's true.
她对我而言太好了。
She was too good for me.
那是什么意思？
What does it mean?
她是个心地善良的人吗？
She was a good hearted person?
你是这个意思吗？
Is that what you mean?
她是个心地善良的人，但她就是完美无缺。
She was a good hearted person, but she was just perfect.
她长相出众，人品也好，样样都完美，但她无法容忍我不忠，而我确实做不到。
Like, great looking, great person, you know, for everything perfect, but it was intolerable to her that I was not faithful, and I couldn't do it.
她确实太好了，不适合我。
And she was she was too good for me.
这么说才对。
That's just the right way to say it.
相信我。
Believe me.
她是个更好的人。
She was a better person.
你有没有特别喜欢或被吸引的类型？
Is there a certain type that you like that you're attracted to?
比如，更年轻的女性？不。
Like, younger women or No.
不。
No.
嗯，现在所有人都比我年轻。
About well, everyone's younger than me now.
得了吧。
Come on.
我的意思是，是的，每个人都比我年轻。
So I mean, yes, everyone is younger than me.
但也不是特别年轻。
But not very young.
不。
No.
我从来都没有过。
And I never did.
你知道的。
You know?
而且我觉得这是一件幸运的事。
And and that's a lucky thing, I think.
你知道的。
You know?
因为否则的话，你会遇到很多问题。
Because otherwise, you know, you have a lot of problems.
是的。
Yeah.
性吸引力，你知道，是存在于你内心的东西。
Sexual attraction, you know, is something in you.
我的意思是，你对谁有性吸引力。
I mean, who you're sexually attracted to.
这不是你能自己构建或改变的东西。
It's not something you can, you know, build in yourself, or it's not something you can change in yourself.
所以，如果你的性品味不是犯罪性的，那你很幸运。
And so, you know, if you have, you know, kind of erotic taste that are not criminal, you're lucky.
随着年龄增长，你的性取向有变化吗？
Has your sexuality morphed as you've gotten older?
我的意思是，年轻时，我整天都在想性，二十四小时不停。
I mean, when I was young, I thought about sex all the time, like, twenty four hours a day.
你知道的。
You know?
是啊。
Yeah.
这就是为什么我会这么说。
It's the reason I would let me put it this way.
而且七十年代的纽约简直疯狂。
And then also New York in the seventies was Insane.
疯狂。
Insane.
所以，当我到纽约时，我觉得这简直像做梦一样，不敢相信。
So, you know and when I got to New York, I thought I was like, I can't believe this is like a dream.
是啊。
Yeah.
我连出门买包烟都不会不想着会遇到什么人，而你确实会遇到。
I never left my apartment, like, even to buy a pack of cigarettes, you know, without thinking, I'm gonna see someone, and you do.
你知道吗，尤其是如果你总是到处看的话。
You know, especially if you're looking all the time.
对。
Right.
和我同龄的人都不是这样的。
No one my age is like that.
如果他们是，那他们就是疯了。
If they are, they're nuts.
你觉得你自己是个虚荣的人吗？
Do you consider yourself a vain person?
是的。
Yes.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
做个虚荣的人没关系。
It's fine to be a vain person.
我的意思是，是的。
I mean yeah.
没关系。
It's fine.
我的意思是，我虽然虚荣，但并没有伤害任何人。
I mean, like, I'm not hurting anyone by being vain.
我的虚荣心也是有界限的。
I mean, there's limits to my vanity.
你知道的吗？
You know?
比如，我做完眼睛手术后——那是医疗手术，不是整形——当时我在巴塞罗那参加一个电视节目，那里的化妆师说：‘现在我们来化妆吧。’
For instance, I did after I had this eye surgery, which was medical, not cosmetic, I was doing a television show in Barcelona, and the makeup artist there said, now we're gonna go do the makeup.
我说：‘不用。’
I said, no.
我说：‘别化妆。’
I said, no makeup.
我说，我不想让任何人靠近我的眼睛。
I said, I I didn't want anyone to get near my eyes.
所以我说，不要化妆。
So I said, no makeup.
我说，我刚做完眼睛手术。
I said, I I just had eye surgery.
他看着我，我从他脸上看得出来，你经历了我这辈子见过最糟糕的眼部手术。
And he looked at me where I could see on his face, you've had the worst eye surgery I've ever seen in my entire life.
所以我看到他的表情，就说，不行。
So I said so I saw his face, and I said, no.
不行。
No.
不行。
No.
不行。
No.
那种眼睛手术。
That kind of eye surgery.
真正的医疗眼睛手术。
Actual medical eye surgery.
我能看出来，他根本不知道我在说什么。
And I could tell, like, he didn't know what I was talking about.
他大概二十五岁。
He was, like, 25.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他说，你知道吗，你化了妆会更好看。
He said, you know, you would look better with makeup.
我说，我知道。
I said, I know that.
我知道化妆有效。
I know makeup works.
我很清楚自己看起来会更好。
I am well aware I would look better.
但我更愿意看得见，而不是为了看起来更好而做手术，因为我根本不想让任何人靠近我的眼睛。
But I would rather be able to look than to look better because I did it was I don't want anyone to get near my eyes at all.
所以，我还没有虚荣到去做整容手术的地步，我永远不会做那种事。
So I'm not vain to the point of having had cosmetic surgery, which I would never do.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我不觉得这有什么不对。
I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
我不认为这是道德问题。
I don't think it's a moral issue.
但我讨厌任何医疗程序，除非我别无选择，比如看不见或者死亡，否则没人能在我身上动刀。
But, you know, I hate any medical procedures, and no one is putting a knife in me unless my other choice is, like, not seeing or dying.
对。
Right.
所以，对。
So Right.
你知道吗，我是我同龄人中少数几个没做过这个的人。
You know, I I'm one of the few people I know around my age who has not had that.
你知道吗？
You know?
我不反对，但我没做过。
I don't object to it, but I'm not I haven't had it.
你知道吗？
You know?
我宁愿像这样，一个朋友的儿子对我说：‘为什么人们要做整形手术？’
I would rather like, someone's kid said to me, the son of a friend of mine, said, why do people have plastic surgery?
所以我回答说：‘因为不然的话，你就会长得像我这样。’
So I said, because otherwise, you look like me.
我说，你知道的，这个孩子长得非常好看。
I said, you know, you're not gonna this kid is very good looking.
我说，你知道谁看起来和你一模一样吗？
I said, you know who you should look just like you?
你父亲。
Your father.
他听了之后，我能看出来他很震惊。
And he was like I could see he was appalled.
我说，我刚认识你父亲的时候，他看起来就和你一样。
I said, when I first met your father, he looked just like you.
我说，雷，你长得真像你父亲。
Then, Ray, you're look just like your father.
我说，这是每个人都会经历的事。
I said, and that is something that happens to everybody.
你知道吗，那个化妆师让我想起一件事：我生完孩子后，大约一个月左右，我走在街上，遇到一个好久没见的女士。
You know that that your eyes this is the thing with the makeup artist reminds me of when after I gave birth to one of my kids and I was walking it was about, like, a month later, and I'm walking down the street somewhere, and I run into a woman I haven't seen her in a while.
她说：‘天哪，朱莉，真高兴见到你。’
She goes, oh my god, Julie, I'm so glad to see you.
见到你真是太好了。
That was so nice to see you too.
她问：‘你预产期是什么时候？’
She goes, when are you due?
那真令人心碎。
It was gutting.
我得说，那真是一次心碎的经历。
I have to say that was a gutting experience.
但你染发吗？你染头发吗？
But you cut do you do you you color your hair.
对吧？
Correct?
当然。
Of course.
我在高中时就长了第一根白发。
I had my first white hair in high school.
我也是。
I did too.
我母亲那边的家人，你知道的，很多人十三岁左右就开始长白发了。
My mother's side of the family, people, you know, go gray in life, you know, by the age of 13.
你知道的？
You know?
对吧。
Right.
所以我三十岁出头就开始染发了。
So I started coloring my hair in my early thirties.
所以，是啊，一直到现在。
And so, yeah, forever.
而且并不是我觉得别人觉得我没染发。
And it isn't that I think people think that it's not colored.
很明显，我是染过的。
Obviously, it is.
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