询问艾米们：破坏型上司、烦人员工及其他

欢迎来到‘问艾米’栏目。

Welcome to ask the Amy's.

这次我们收到一位听众关于工作困扰的来信，我们将给出最佳建议。

This is one of our listeners write to us about their frustrations at work, and we give them our best advice.

这次的问题涉及从战术层面跃升至战略层面、应对上级不公正待遇、

This time, those questions are about making the leap from tactical to strategic, handling unfair treatment from a

指导性格难相处的同事以及其他几个问题。让我们从一位女士的提问开始，她想知道如何推动建立更正式的绩效考核制度。她写道：我在一家中等规模的家族企业工作，随着公司扩张，我们经历了一些成长阵痛。但绩效考核流程始终没有改进——每年两次的评估仅需填写包含两个简单问题的表格。我们无法以更量化的标准评估自身表现，也没有机会接受同事的360度评估。

manager, coaching someone with a difficult personality, and a few other issues. So let's start with this question from a woman who's wondering how to push for a more formalized review process at work. She writes, I work at a midsized family owned company that has had some growing pains as we've expanded. One area that has not evolved is our review process, which is done twice a year and involves filling out a form with two simple questions. There are no means for evaluating ourselves in terms of our performance on a more quantitative basis, and there is no opportunity for a three sixty review of our peers.

她说：改革后的扩展版评估流程将惠及所有人。但尽管公司多个层级多次提出请求，高层领导仍抗拒变革。作为中层人员，她希望能有机会以正式方式向同事提供有效反馈。她问道：我该如何论证这个提议，才能让领导层真正重视？

A revamped, expanded review process is something we could all really benefit from. But top leadership is resistant to change despite multiple requests from multiple levels of the company. As someone in the middle of the hierarchy, she says she'd love a chance to provide some effective feedback in a formalized way to her peers. She asks, how can I make the case for doing so in a way that will get leadership to really listen?

嗯，她需要...她需要构建论证依据。

Well, she's just she's to build the case.

是的。她必须建立

Yeah. She has to build the

商业案例，然后还要集结支持者联盟。对。

business case, and then she has to sort of assemble a coalition Yes. Of supporters.

因为换位思考，如果我是这家公司的领导，可能会想：你们要我们做什么？我们已经有这么多事要处理。这只会增加层层官僚程序。我们为什么要投资这个？

Because I can imagine being in the leadership position in this organization and thinking, you want us to do what? Like, we have so much to do. That's gonna create layers and layers of bureaucracy. Why would we invest in this?

没错。她也需要明白，没有哪个经理会欢呼：太好了！我要做更多更复杂的评估。显然这是...

Right. And she also needs to understand that no manager ever said, oh, great. I get to do more reviews, and and they need to be more complicated. I mean, it's clear that this is

根据她的描述，这家公司可能需要一个更正式的流程。具体是什么流程、需要投入多少资源、为什么要这么做，这些都需要由她作为推动者来论证。

a company that could probably use based on what she's telling us, could probably use a more formal process. What that process is, what the investment needs to be, why they would do it, that that really is falling to her to make the case as the one who's pushing it.

我也认为不必非要等到年度评估——或者像她这种情况的半年评估——才给予反馈

I also think you don't have to wait until the moment of these annual or, in her case, semiannual review to give feedback

是啊。

Yeah.

或者非要等到那时才寻求反馈。这应该是日常交流中的常态。如果她正在寻找向他人提供反馈的方式，那她就应该直接给予反馈，对吧？

Or to ask for feedback. This is something that should be in the the flow of regular conversation. So if what she is looking for is a way to give feedback to others, she she should give it. Right?

我在想她是否可以把推动的目标从'建立正式流程'——这听起来工作量很大，需要很多投入——重新定义为...

Well and I wonder if she could reframe what she's pushing for away from something formal, which sounds like a lot of work Yeah. A lot of investment

嗯。

Mhmm.

改为'我们想打造一个反馈丰富的文化'。

To we wanna create a feedback rich culture.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么如何真正建立这种反馈丰富的文化？我们需要什么？是需要非正式讨论？还是需要赋能领导者和管理者理解什么是好的反馈？或是需要让员工敢于主动寻求反馈，而非仅限于每年被问的那两个问题？

And how do we actually create a feedback rich culture? What do we need? Do we need those informal discussions? Do we need to empower leaders and managers to understand what good feedback is? Do we need to empower employees to ask for feedback beyond these two questions that they get every year?

我认为她还可以尝试以身作则

And I think she could also try to model the behavior

我喜欢这一点。她会喜欢的。

I like that. That she'd like

去看看，看看效果如何。

to see and see how that plays out.

是的，我喜欢这个。不过我认为向上级反馈这件事需要走正式流程。

Yeah. I like that. The thing I think requires a formal process, though, is the giving feedback upward.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

如果你的经理或领导没有主动要求，直接说‘顺便我有一些反馈给你’会很难开口对吧？所以我觉得正式流程能为此提供一些结构化的支持。

If your manager's not asking for it, the leadership's not asking for it, it's really hard to be like, by the way, I have some feedback for you. Right? So I think the formal process there could help to have have some structure around that.

没错，我同意。这个想法很聪明。

Yeah. I agree with that. That's smart.

另外，当你在推动组织变革时，如果有人让你踩刹车，记得问清楚原因。他们的顾虑是什么？是成本问题？公平性问题？

The other thing I think about anyone pushing a change in an organization when you've you know, people have told you to put the brakes on, ask why. Yeah. What are their hesitations? Is it around cost? Is it around fairness?

是担心不必要的官僚主义？还是人力不足？要具体分析这些顾虑，然后在她构建论证时针对性解决。

Is it around unnecessary bureaucracy? Is it around bandwidth? Like, what are those? And then try to address those specifically when she builds her case.

同时也要保持开放心态，可能你确实忽略了某些因素。

And also be open to the idea that you might have been missing something.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

没错。他们可能有不这么做的充分理由，然后她可以就此展开对话。当你想尝试前人未做过的事情时，我最喜欢的另一个建议是：与其说‘我们需要在全公司推行这个’，不如说‘让我们做个实验，先在一个部门试行’。

Yeah. Right. They may have a good reason why they've never done it, and then she can engage in a conversation about that. My other favorite advice when you're trying to do something that hasn't been done before, instead of saying, we need to roll this out to the entire company and say, let's run an experiment. Let's do this in one division.

看看效果如何。测试一下。这是个小投入，有时间限制。如果有效，那很好。

See how it works. Test it out. It's a small investment. It's time limited. If it works, great.

如果无效，你也能学到东西。你可以调整你的方案。

And if it doesn't, then you learn. You can make your case different.

正是如此。好了，我要给你读下一个问题了。

Exactly. Exactly. Alright. I'm gonna read you the next question.

好的，开始吧。

Alright. Let's do it.

这位女士想知道如何判断职场上哪些仗值得打。这是个永恒的大问题，对吧？我在教育领域工作，属于辅助专业人员团队，但我觉得这个问题跨越多个行业。在职业生涯中，大多数人都会遇到不喜欢的决定或不认同的情况。

This woman is wondering how to know which battles at work are worth fighting. Big perennial. Right? I work in education as part of a team of paraprofessionals, but I think this question spans across many different industries. Over the course of a career, most of us will probably encounter a decision or situation we don't like or don't agree with.

但如果没人受伤，没有损失，你如何判断何时该发声，何时不必小题大做？艾米，这问题简直为你量身定制。你在很久以前（2013年左右）写过相关文章。没错。你也承认这是你一直在思考的问题。

However, if nobody's hurt, nothing's damaged, how do you know when to speak up and when it's not a big deal? Amy, this seems tailor made for you. You've written about this in the very distant past, 2013 or something like that. That's right. And you've acknowledged that this is something you grapple with.

是的，我从未见过不想解决的问题。不过，我确实采纳了2013年那篇文章里给自己的一些建议。

Yeah. I have never seen a problem I didn't wanna fix. That said, I do take a little of my own advice from that 2013 article.

嗯。

Mhmm.

事实上，每当我因某事感到沮丧，认为某件事不公平、不公正或需要改进时，我首先会做的是找几个人聊聊。

And really, the very first thing I try to do when I'm frustrated by something, when I think something is unfair or unjust or should be fixed, is I go and talk to a few other people.

嗯，只是想确认这是否只是你的个人感受。

Mhmm. Just to see if if it's you.

没错。同时也是为了压力测试——我遗漏了什么？为什么这样是可以接受的？嗯...你怎么看这件事？

Yes. And to pressure test, like, what am I missing? Why would this be okay? Mhmm. How do you think about this?

毕竟你是那种必须时刻权衡轻重的人。

I mean, you're someone who has to pick your battles all the time.

每分每秒都在权衡。记得那篇关于管理能量而非时间的经典文章吗？对，我时常想起这个观点，因为消耗的不仅是时间，更是精力。确实如此。

All the time. Remember that article about managing your energy, not your time, that classic? Yep. I think about that sometimes because it's not just time, it is energy. Yeah.

但我总问自己：这是次性事件吗？还是说这个我反对的问题会持续伤害他人或损害组织？如果存在长期影响，如果这事会留下深远后果，我可能会站出来发声。我们现在讨论的只是个模糊轮廓，连具体是什么都不清楚。

But I always ask myself, is this is this a one and done thing? Or is whatever I disagree with going to come back to hurt others or to hurt the organization in some way? And if there's a long term effect, if there's a long tail to this thing, I might I might jump up and say something about it. You know, we're talking about something in silhouette. Don't really know what what the that is, what what the what the thing is.

但若你对某事有不安感，或明显感到不公正、完全错误时，提出质疑某种程度上是你的职责——尤其随着你在组织内职位提升。嗯...你的直觉既塑造了独特的你，也是你价值的核心部分。有些事对我的困扰程度似乎不及你。

But if you have a weird feeling about something, or if you if something really seems unjust, plain wrong, you know, it's kinda your job Yeah. To bring it up, particularly as you rise in an organization. Mhmm. And your instinct is part of what makes you you, and it's part of what gives you value and sets you apart. Things don't bother me the way I think they bother you sometimes.

嗯...我认为这有时是你的优势，有时则是我的优势。确实如此，本无好坏之分。

Mhmm. And I think of that as a strength of yours at sometimes, and sometimes it's a strength of mine. Absolutely. There's no good or bad about this.

我还必须考虑这不仅关乎精力管理，更是政治资本的管理。我曾有段时期提出所有顾虑，结果被视作总在无火情时拉响警报的人。等到真正重要的'火灾'出现时，却无人理会。这就是另一个层面的问题了。

And I also have to think about, it's not just managing your energy, but it's also managing your political capital. Because I have certainly been in positions where I raised every single concern I had, and then I was treated as if everything I said was pulling a fire alarm for a fire that didn't exist. And so when there was what to me felt like a more important fire, no one paid attention. Right. And so that's the other thing.

成了危言耸听者。正是。或者说我在喊'狼来了'。对我而言那些确实都是狼，但我必须认识到需要调节反馈和发声的节奏，这样当你真正有重大关切时，人们才会重视。

It's an alarmist. Exactly. Or I'm, you know, I'm crying wolf. To me, they were all actually wolves, but I had to recognize that you need to modulate the feedback and the speaking up so that when you do have something you're genuinely concerned about, that the people listen.

让我引用一下不久前与南希·罗斯巴德交谈时她提出的一个观点。

Let me bring in a a point that Nancy Rothbard made when I talked to her not too long ago.

沃顿商学院的研究学者，对吧？

Researcher academic at Wharton. Right?

是的。我认为这非常重要。如果你基于道德理由对某事提出异议，要记住你的听众是谁。明白吗？你是向你的经理、执行委员会提出这个异议。

Yes. And I think this is really important. If you are raising an objection to something on moral grounds, remember who your audience is. You know? You're bringing this objection to your manager, to your executive committee.

把你的异议重新表述为一个商业案例。对吧？

Recast your objection as a business case. Right?

没错。我记得在你和南希的对话中，南希的研究发现这对女性尤其重要。确实如此。如果她们代表组织而非个人或小群体提出异议，实际上更有可能被听取。我想到的小群体是教育领域的辅助专业人员。

Yep. I remember in your conversation with Nancy, what Nancy's research found was that that was especially imperative for women. Absolutely. It actually made them much more likely to be heard if they were objecting on behalf of the organization and not themselves or a small group. The small group I'm thinking about are paraprofessional here who works in education.

对吧？可能有不公平的政策，可能有人员配置问题，可能有与家长互动处理不当的情况。嗯。

Right? Maybe there's an unfair policy. Maybe there's a staffing issue. Maybe there's a interaction with a parent that was handled incorrectly. Mhmm.

对吧？我在想，与其说这对我不公平，或对辅助专业人员不公平，或对这个特定的员工群体不公平，不如说这对组织不利。有人在处理这个问题吗？因为这个政策决定背后可能有很多你不知道的考量，无论你觉得它哪里不对。

Right? I'm thinking about how instead of saying this is unfair to me or to the paraprofessionals or to this particular staff group, this is not good for the organization. Is anyone addressing this? Because there might be a lot going on behind the scenes about this policy decision, whatever it is that you feel is not right. Right.

问题可能不在于决定本身。

The problem might have might not be the decision.

可能是围绕这个决定的沟通方式。

It might be the communication around the decision.

正是如此。所以你应该以对话和信息收集的方式介入，而不是直接告诉别人这为什么错了以及必须立刻如何修正。

Exactly. And that's why you enter it as a conversation, information gathering, not telling people exactly why this is wrong and how it has to be fixed right

现在。你知道，那个关于假定积极意图的老规矩在这里很重要。

now. You know, that old rule about assuming positive intent is important here.

是的。总是这样。嗯。好吧。希望我们给了她一些指导。

Yep. Always. Mhmm. Alright. Hopefully, we've given her a little guidance.

我们来看下一个。这是一位女性，她感觉她的经理在破坏她的职业发展。她告诉我们，她在目前的职位上已经四年了，一直向同一位经理汇报。最近，当她询问职业发展和晋升需要做什么时，他开始向同事散布关于她的言论，说她难以跨团队合作。她说，在我二十五年的职业生涯中从未收到过这种反馈，更不用说过去四年了。

Let's go to the next one. This is from a woman who feels like her manager is sabotaging her career growth. She tells us that she's been in her current role for four years reporting to the same manager. Lately, when she's been asking him about career growth and what she'd need to do for a promotion, he's started to spin a narrative about her to his colleagues that she's difficult to work with across teams. She says, I have never received this feedback in my twenty five years of work, let alone over the last four years.

当我要求具体例子时，他给我的那些例子都很模糊、过时，而且基于一些最多是我与他人有误解或礼貌分歧的时刻。我获得了最高绩效评价，包括来自与我密切合作和跨职能合作的同事的360度反馈。我的管理经验也比他丰富。他只做了几年经理，而我已经做了十五年，并且一直得到积极的反馈。我不禁觉得我的性别是个问题。

When I asked for specific examples, the ones he gives me are vague, dated, and based on moments where I, at most, had a misunderstanding or respectful disagreement with someone. I've received top performance reviews, including three sixty feedback from my peers who I work closely and cross functionally with. I also have more management experience than him. He's only been doing it for a few years, and I've been doing it for fifteen and have always had positive feedback. I can't help but feel like my gender is an issue.

我的经理还以非常政治化著称，团队中的其他人也注意到他似乎与男性关系更好，而不是女性。她考虑过至少去人力资源部，以确保她的观点被记录在案，并且因为她担心报复。她最后说，我也在考虑彻底找一份新工作。我只是不确定该怎么做。我认为她想去人力资源部的直觉可能是明智的。

My manager is also known for being very political, and others on the team have noticed how he seems to have better relationships with men versus women. She's considered going to HR at least to make sure that her perspective is documented and because she's concerned about retaliation. She ends by saying, I'm also considering finding a new job altogether. I'm just not sure what to do. I think her instinct to go to HR is probably smart.

我认为记录正在发生的事情，确保她这一方的情况，尤其是他在散布的那些言论。对吧？你不想让你所有的好工作和好名声被这个人毁掉。

I think documenting what's going on, making sure her side of the situation, especially the spinning the narrative thing he's doing. Right? You don't want all of your good work, all of your good reputation undone by this person.

我我不认为这段关系可以挽救。是的。但我确实认为这样做是对的，因为如果这家伙对她这样，他对其他同事会怎样？对吧？

I I don't think this marriage can be saved. Yeah. But I do think it's the right thing to do just because if this guy is behaving this way toward her, how's he behaving toward other colleagues? Right?

是的。

Yeah.

如果是基于性别的，你知道，那就更有理由提出来了。

And if it's gender based, you know, all the more reason to bring it up.

没错。听起来这一切都是从她说她想成长开始的。对吧。你知道，如果他只是不采取行动，那还好，但他似乎在采取积极行动来否定和破坏她。

Exactly. It does sound like this all started with her saying she wants to grow. Right. You know, it's one thing if he was just not taking action, but he seems to be taking proactive action to dismiss and undermine her.

你知道吗，我很高兴你提到这一点，因为对我来说这根本说不通。什么是什么？就是她去找他寻求成长机会和指导，结果他却翻脸，开始这样对她。这到底是怎么回事？

You know, that's I'm glad you brought that up because that's just not adding up for me. What's what? The part where she went to him seeking growth opportunities and guidance, and he turns on her, and he starts behaving this way. What is going on there?

嗯，我有几个推测。好吧。其中一个我认为最典型，就是他感到威胁了。对吧？他就像在说，你以为你是谁？

Well, I have a few theories. Okay. One of which I think is most typical, which is that he's threatened. Right? He's like, who are you?

老实待在你的

Stay in your stay

位置上继续让我脸上有光

in your Continue to make me look good.

没错。别别抢我的饭碗。另一个可能是他根本不知道如何培养她，所以这暴露了他的无能或不安全感。对吧。关于如何处理这种情况。

Exactly. Okay. Don't don't take my job. Another is that he just doesn't know how to grow her, so it's highlighting his incompetence or his own insecurity Right. About how to deal with this.

所以他干脆把责任推给她，好像是在说不是我不能培养你，而是你太难相处。你没做好这些事。而当她反问怎么回事时，他就胡乱找些站不住脚的反馈。我给这个人的另一个建议是，再怎么强调都不为过，要经营好其他关系。

And so he's just making it seem like instead of me being able to grow you, I can't possibly grow you because you're difficult to work with. You're not doing this these things. And then when she's like, wait, what's going on? He's just sort of grasping at straws to give her this feedback that doesn't add up with everything else. My other advice to this person is, I can't emphasize this enough, focus on your other relationships.

我知道这段关系很重要。它对你的职业和日常工作体验影响很大。但要花时间投资与其他同事的关系，听起来那些关系还不错。这不仅能让她心理上好受些，还可能带来一些人脉机会。万一HR那边出问题，也能多一层保护。

I know this relationship is important. It matters so much to your career and to your daily experience at work, But spend time, invest in relationships with the other people you work with, which it sounds like are good relationships. Because that's gonna save her mentally, but then also hopefully give her some networking opportunities. Maybe if things go sideways with HR, we'll give her another level of protection.

是啊。好。我们看下一个问题吧？开始吧。好的。

Yeah. K. Should we go on to the next question? Let's do it. Alright.

这位听众来信讲述了她与即将离职的经理之间的紧张关系。嗯。我担任助理物业经理五个月了。虽然对传统物业管理是新手，但我上手很快。我渴望成长，并在现任上司（即物业经理）提交两个月离职通知后，表达了接任该职位的意愿。

So this listener wrote in about a tough dynamic with her soon to depart manager. Mhmm. I've been working as an assistant property manager for five months. And despite being new to conventional property management, I've picked things up quickly. I'm eager to grow and have expressed interest in the property manager position after my current boss, is the property manager, submitted her two month notice.

然而自从我表现出对这个职位的兴趣后，情况变得极具挑战性。一些背景：当我的上司暂时调去管理另一个物业时，我几乎要独自处理所有事务。那段时间她并不支持我。当我寻求指导时，她会说我问题太多，需要自己想办法解决。

However, since I showed interest in the role, things have become extremely challenging. Some context. When my boss stepped away for a few months to work on another property, I was left to manage nearly everything solo. During this time, she was not very supportive. When I asked for guidance, she'd say, I ask too many questions and need to figure things out independently.

但最终，我的工作表现获得了积极反馈。不过，我仍有许多成长空间，已请求她协助培训。当我表达对物业经理职位的兴趣后，她却表示没有义务指导我。这个情况

But in the end, I got positive feedback on my performance. However, I still have a lot of room to grow, and I've asked her to help train me. And now that I've expressed interest in being considered for the property manager role, she's told me she's not responsible for teaching me. This pitch

深呼吸。保持呼吸。

Deep breath. Keep breath.

事态已恶化到她接管了我大部分职责，只留给我非常基础的工作。她还表现得阴阳怪气且粗鲁无礼。太棒了。我感到被贬低且情绪枯竭。非常希望您能就如何应对这种有毒关系提供建议，特别是在保持专业性、维持自信以及不迷失自我方面。

The situation has escalated to the point where she's taken over most of my responsibilities, leaving me with very basic tasks. She's also been passive aggressive and rude. Awesome. I feel belittled and emotionally drained. I'd greatly appreciate any advice you have on how to manage this kind of toxic dynamic, particularly in terms of staying professional, maintaining my confidence, and not losing myself in the process.

好的，艾米。首先

Alright, Amy. Well, first of

我认为不该把精力浪费在这个即将离职的上司身上。应该关注那些会留下来的人——按描述这位上司不到两个月就会离开，届时谁能指导你工作？有没有其他人能带你熟悉业务？

all, I think I would not focus my energy on this soon to depart boss. I would focus it on who's there. Who's gonna be there when this person leaves in what sounds like less than two months? Is there someone else who can show you the ropes? Yeah.

有没有其他人能帮你建立信心？或许可以找位导师——虽然未必完全接替你上司的工作，但有没有人精通某些相关领域能让你学习部分内容？

Is there someone else who can help build your confidence? A mentor maybe not everyone does exactly what your soon to depart manager does, but is there someone who does some aspect of it that you can learn part of it?

嗯。对于您出色的建议，我只想补充一点：建议这位写信的女士直接去找

Mhmm. The only thing I would add to your excellent advice is I would suggest that the woman who wrote this letter go talk to whoever's making the decision about

这个职位的

This job.

这个职位的决策者。对。去表明：嘿，我对此非常感兴趣。

This job. Yeah. To say, hey. I'm very interested in this. Yep.

我知道自己需要学习很多。这是我计划的学习方案。希望能获得您的指导——关于您对这个职位的期待。

I know I have a lot to learn. Here's how I propose to learn it. I would love to get some guidance from you Mhmm. On what you're looking for. Yeah.

如果你能把我联系上你认为工作做得非常好的人，我会把向他们学习当作我的首要任务。

And if you could connect me with people who you think do the job really well, I will make it my business to learn from them.

你让我想到她甚至可以列个具体的清单。列出我真正擅长的事情、我需要学习的内容，以及当我接手这份工作时希望向谁学习这些。也许你认识其他公司的物业经理，可以建立联系并提及这种关系。

You're making me think she could even do something as concrete as a list. Here are the things I'm really good at. Here's the things I would need to learn. Here's who I would hope to learn them from when I take on this job. You know, maybe you know a property manager who works in a different company who you can network with and mention that relationship.

要非常明确地表明，你对胜任这个角色所需的条件有清晰的认识，并且能够按照这个愿景去执行。

Just being very clear that you have a picture of what it would take for you to do this role and that you would be able to execute on what that vision looks like.

而且，你要主动建立人脉。走出去结识其他物业经理，寻求他们的指导。

And also, you know, make the connections. Go out there and meet other property managers and ask ask for guidance.

是的。

Yeah.

并告诉他们你正在这样做。展示你非常非常渴望进入这个职位，或者类似的职位。因为没有人想失去这样的人。对吧？

And say that that's what you're doing. Show that you're really, really intent on moving into, if not this job, a job just like it. Because no one wants to lose that person. Right?

对。我再回到我的实验策略，如果因为即将离职的上司对你评价不高而有所犹豫，也许可以提议：我能像她之前不得不离开时那样，试做这份工作一个月吗？我们可以试两个月，看看效果如何，然后再讨论？

Yes. And I'll go back to my experiment tactic, which is that if there's some hesitation because of your soon to depart boss, maybe not saying great things about you, maybe just propose, could I try doing the job for a month the way same way I did it when she had to step away? Could we try it for two months, see how it goes, then readdress it?

让我展示一下我能做什么。对，对。

Let me show you what I can do. Yeah. Yeah.

我喜欢这个。那么我们下一个问题来自英国的一位医生，她写道：在一个高层似乎对女性员工有偏见的部门里，我们如何开启关于性别平等的对话？我太爱这个经典的职场女性问题了——

I like that. So our next question is from a doctor in The UK, and she writes, how can we start a conversation on gender equality in a department where the higher ups seem to be biased against women workers? I love this classic women at

嗯。

work question. Mhmm.

我在一个男性员工能获得更好培训机会的地方工作。当然，他们能留得更久，也能投入更长时间学习手术。尽管拥有相似的手术技能，男性外科医生往往比女性同行表现出更多自信。这为他们赢得了更好的机会，久而久之会形成不公平的优势。有什么建议可以讨论如何或从哪里开始这个话题，或者如何集体帮助我共事的女性应对这种情况吗？

I work in a place where male workers get better training opportunities. Of course, they are able to stay longer and can put in longer hours to learn a surgery. Despite having similar surgical skills, male surgeons often display more confidence than their female counterparts. This gets them better opportunities and over time can create an unfair advantage for them. Any tips on how and where to start a conversation on this or how to collectively help the women I work with navigate this?

好吧，我要给出一个职场女性的经典回答——没错，那就是先从收集数据开始。

Well, I'm gonna give a classic women at work answer Yep. Which is start by gathering data.

是的。

Yes.

对吧？

Right?

没错。因为她所说的会被所有证据支持。对吧？比如他们能留得更久，获得更好的培训机会，更有自信。所以这些方面，她很可能是对的。

Yep. Because what she's saying would be backed up by all the evidence. Right? Like, that they can stay longer, they're forgetting better training opportunities, have more confidence. So all of that, she's probably right.

她的怀疑是正确的。但没有数据支撑，对吧，来证明存在不平等。

Her suspicions are right. But without the data, Right. To show that there's inequality.

对。

Right.

那么她不太可能引起高层的重视。

Then she's unlikely to get the ear of the higher ups.

没错，正是如此。一旦你掌握了数据，就带着它去找高层。

Right. Exactly. And then once you've got the data in hand, go to the higher ups with it.

是的。有研究，虽然我一时想不起来具体内容，但我知道我们发表过研究也表明，当那些与不平等无直接利害关系的人——他们不是不平等现象的目标群体——提出关切时，更可能被倾听。

Yeah. There is research, and I I don't have it at the top of my head, but I know we've published research that also shows that when people who don't have a stake in the equities, they aren't the target of the inequity. When they raise the concerns, they're more likely to be there.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我也想问问，这些男性外科医生中有没有你可以视为盟友的人，能与之展开对话，对他们说：看看我发现的这些数据。你愿意帮我发起这个讨论吗？对，这是个好主意。没错。

So I would also say, are there any of these male surgeons that who you could would consider allies, who you could have the conversation with, who you could say, look at this data I found. Any chance you'd be willing to help me start this conversation? Yeah. It's a good idea. Yeah.

我特别希望这个人能给我们回信告知进展，因为这是个漫长的过程。但即便是开启对话——这也是另一个重点——就能帮助她应对和驾驭这个局面。同时正如她所说，要帮助其他女性应对的话，就是设定小目标、阶段性目标。比如提出议题、收集数据、进行一场能促成积极承诺的对话。因为如果你指望短期内彻底扭转局面，只会感到沮丧和失望。

This is someone who I really want to write back to us and let us know how it goes because this is a long process. But even starting the conversation, that's the other thing, just to help her deal with this and navigate it. And and also, as she says, to help the other woman navigate, is set small goals, milestone goals. Just raising the issue, collecting the data, having one conversation that leads to one, you know, positive commitment. Because if you're set on rectifying the entire situation in a short period of time, you're gonna feel demoralized and disappointed.

所以要找到能实现的小目标，以此推动更大的变革。

So find a small goal that you can achieve that will help lead up to a larger change.

很好的建议。这位听众来信提到她渴望从强力的战术型管理者成长为更具战略眼光的领导者。她写道：我从事变革管理工作，负责指导跨职能团队完成复杂的变革计划。职业生涯中，我的高效执行能力一直备受认可。但我希望不久能获得更高级别的职位，让我参与战略制定而非仅仅执行。

Good advice. This listener wrote in about her desire to grow from a strong tactical manager into a more strategic leader. She writes, I work in change management where I guide cross functional teams through complex change initiatives. Throughout my career, I've been recognized for my ability to execute and implement effectively. But I'm hoping to soon land a more senior role that would allow me to help shape strategy, not just execute it.

在为下一步做准备时，我意识到需要提升思维高度以更具战略性。但这个跨越很艰难。最近我为一份面向高管层的文件撰写了变革管理章节，但文件负责人反馈我的内容过于琐碎，需要更宏观。我难以把握恰当的细节程度和优先级排序。另一次面试中我进入了最终三选，但未获录用——反馈说我太关注细节，团队需要更具全局视野的人选。

As I prepare for that next step, I'm realizing I need to elevate my thinking to be more strategic. But making that leap has been tough. I recently contributed the change management section of a document intended for our c suite, but the document owner shared that my content was too in the weeds and needed to be higher level. I struggled to determine the right level of detail and what to prioritize. I also recently interviewed for a job where I was a top three candidate but ultimately didn't get the job.

该如何培养并展现战略思维？尤其当人们长期依赖我的执行能力时？这种转变在日常工作中具体如何体现？请指教。

The feedback was that I'm too detail oriented, and the team was looking for someone with a more big picture perspective. How do I build and demonstrate strategic thinking, especially when I've been relied on for execution for so long? What does this shift look like in day to day work? Over to you.

嗯...我常想起尼娜·鲍曼，她是高管教练和领导力发展专家，曾为我们写过两篇广受欢迎的文章（2016年2月）。一篇是《提升战略思维技能的四个方法》，另一篇是《如何展现你的战略思维》。她的很多观点——我们会把文章链接放在节目备注里——

Ugh. So I think a lot about Nina Bowman, who is a executive coach and leadership development person who has written two articles for us that did really well. I think they were back in 02/2016. One was four things to improve, your strategic thinking skills, and then how to demonstrate that you're a strategic thinker. And a lot of what she describes and we can we'll share those in the show notes.

但核心在于设身处地思考高层领导者的视角。嗯。他们在想什么？他们在问什么？当你开始深入细节时，要自问：这个细节与当前问题相关吗？

But a lot of what she describes is really trying to put yourself in the shoes of the senior leader. Mhmm. What are they thinking? What are they asking? The minute you start to go into detail, ask yourself, is that a detail that's relevant to this question?

这能帮助我们决策吗？也许在十场对话的第五场时，某个细节是相关的。但在初次讨论时呢？对吧？所以要真正学会用那种视角看问题。

Will that help us make this decision? And maybe, you know, on conversation five of our 10 conversations, that's a relevant detail. But in the first conversation, is it? Right? So trying to really see things from that perspective.

尼娜在那两篇文章中反复强调的另一件事是提出正确的问题。没错。关键不在于你需要多少数据来做决定，而在于什么会影响你做出这个决定的能力。嗯。我们需要考虑哪些因素？

The other thing Nina talks a lot about in those two articles is asking the right questions. Right. And that's not how much data do you need to make this decision, but what would influence your ability to make this decision? Mhmm. What factors do we want to consider?

嗯。还有谁需要知道这个决定？还有谁与此有利害关系？我认为你，艾米·B，是个非常有战略眼光的人，我很好奇，同时你也非常注重细节。你是如何平衡这两点的？

Mhmm. Who else needs to know about this decision? Who else has a stake in it? I think of you, Amy B, as someone who's very strategic, and I'm curious, and yet also very good with details. So how do you balance those two things?

其实我非常不擅长处理细节，任何直接向我汇报的人都会告诉你这一点。而且我总是忘事。但是，我认为战略思考者的标志是‘未来回溯’。你要从你想要达到的目标、想要实现的成果、想要带来的改变开始，然后倒推回来。

Well, I'm actually terrible with details, and anyone who is a direct report of mine will tell you that. And I forget I forget things all the time. But Yeah. I think the mark of being a a strategic thinker is your future back. So you start with where you wanna go, the outcome you wanna accomplish, the change that you want to bring to life, and then you work back from there.

对吧？一切都围绕这些来展开。是的。所以你要考虑组织的愿景、目标和既定战略。这就像是把镜头拉远来看全局。

Right? And everything is framed in those terms. Yeah. So you're you're thinking about the vision and the goals and the stated strategy of your organization. And this is about pulling the camera back.

嗯。对吧？嗯。所以我会先去理解组织宣称要参与的游戏，以及它计划如何赢得这个游戏。对吧？

Mhmm. Right? Mhmm. So where I would go is understanding the game that your organization has stated it wants to play and how it says it plans to win that game. Right?

是的。我们出版了一本很棒的书叫《赢的游戏》。

Yeah. We published a great book called Playing to Win.

是的。

Yes.

对吧？没错。作者是AG·拉弗雷和罗杰·马丁。这本书已经成为经典了，但我觉得闭嘴。

Right? Yep. By AG Laffley and and Roger Martin. And that's become a classic, but I think shut up.

读那本书。哪怕只是略读。因为我认为这会帮助她理解领导者可能在问自己或应该问自己的宏观问题。嗯，另外我还会读

Read that book. It's Even if she just skims it. Because I think that will help her understand what are the big picture questions the leaders are probably asking themselves or should be asking themselves. Well, the other thing I would read

迈克·波特的经典著作《竞争战略》中的五力模型。是的。但你必须理解组织所处的竞争环境。嗯。因为这会让你对机会和威胁更加敏感。

is Mike Porter's classic on on competition, the five forces. Yeah. But you have to understand the competitive environment that your organization is operating in. Mhmm. Because that will sensitize you to opportunities and threats.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这些就是你应该考虑的方面。

And those are the terms you should be thinking in.

对，没错。是的。

Yeah. Right? Yep.

而且，你知道，我说过你是从未来倒推着工作的。你总是考虑长远。你在思考组织的长期成功和健康发展，并以此框架来构建你的想法。当你提出建议或改变时，总是为了组织的长期成功和健康。

And, you know, I said you're you're working from the future back. You're always thinking about the long term. You're thinking about the long term success and health of your organization, and you're framing your thinking in those terms. When you're making a suggestion that you're proposing a change, it's always for the long term success and health of the organization.

是的，我很赞同。鉴于这份报告对她没有奏效，我有一个非常具体的建议给她。

Yeah. I love that. And I have a very tactical recommendation for her knowing that this report did not work out for her

嗯。

Mhmm.

考虑到她过于纠结细节，她可以先写第一稿，那可能会过于细节化，然后把它当作附录。对吧。所以，好的，如果那是附录，那么读者需要从这份文件中获取的两三个关键要点是什么？

And knowing that she's too in the weeds is that she can write the first draft, which will probably be too much in the weeds, and then think of that as the appendix. Right. So, okay, if that's the appendix, what are the two, three top takeaways that people reading this document need to

知道？对，完美。好的，明白了。

know? Right. Perfect. Okay. Alright.

哦，好吧。

Oh, well.

问题解决了。

Problem solved.

解决了我们的问题。

Solved our problems.

很好。艾米，我要问你这个问题。我们会打乱顺序，因为这是你的专长。好吗？嗯。

Great. Amy, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you this question. We're gonna go out of order because this is your bailiwick. Alright? Mhmm.

这是一位女士的来信，她想知道如何指导一个性格难相处的团队成员。爱他们。好吧。她写道，我正在为一个员工苦恼，他虽然没有公开违抗或违反任何明确政策，但仍然制造混乱。在会议中，这名员工会以事实为幌子发表被动攻击性言论，好争论，逃避承担责任，并且对自己行为的影响缺乏自我意识。

So it's from a woman who's wondering how to coach a team member with a difficult personality. Love them. Alright. She writes, I'm struggling with an employee who isn't openly insubordinate or violating any clear policies but still creates turmoil. During meetings, the employee makes passive aggressive comments framed as facts, is argumentative, avoids taking responsibility, and lacks self awareness about the impact of their behavior.

哇。有时，他们似乎会微妙地针对某个同事，但做得让人觉得主观且难以证实。你如何管理一个行为具有腐蚀性但又不明显可指导或可解雇的人？真的可以指导表现但不能指导个性吗？当没有明确的行动时刻，只有一种破坏模式时，你能做什么？

Wow. At times, they seem to subtly target a coworker, but it's done in a way that feels subjective and hard to prove. How do you manage someone whose behavior is corrosive but not clearly coachable or fireable? Is it really true that you can coach performance but not personality? And what can you do when there's no defining moment to act on, just a pattern of undermining?

这很有意思。

That is juicy.

这是专门为你写的。

And that is written for you.

是的。好吧，我们有三个小时，对吧，因为我有很多想法。我的第一个想法是，‘个性’这个词反复出现，我认为这真的把她引向了错误的方向。谁知道呢？也许这个人确实有个性难相处。但当你把它当作个性时，实际上没有什么可以解决的。对吧。

Yeah. Well, we have three hours, right, because I have a lot of thoughts for I mean, my very first thought is this word personality keeps coming up over and over, and I think that's really leading her down the wrong path, which is who knows? Maybe this person has a difficult personality. But when you treat it as a personality, there's nothing to actually address. Right.

就像，你不能对某人说，你必须完全改变自己，因为这让其他人很烦。就像，你就是不能这么做。尽管有时候很想这么说。

Like, you can't say to someone, you have to change completely who you are because it's really annoying everyone else. Like, you just can't do that. Tempting as it is to say

有时候。

that sometimes.

在我脑海里，我也这么说过。是的。但你必须找出有问题的行为。而且你不需要证明它。这是另一回事。

And in my head, I've said that. Yeah. But you have to figure out the behavior that's problematic. And you don't have to prove it. This is the other thing.

她一直试图证明。你不需要证明。你可以说，有一种印象是。是的。我有这种感觉。

She keeps trying to prove. You don't have to prove it. You can say, there's an impression that. Yeah. I get the feeling that.

当我看到你这样做时，让我想到这个。嗯。对吧？你不需要证明到无可置疑的程度，尽管这个人会和你争论到天荒地老，说他们没错。作为他们的经理，你可以说，这是你给人的印象。

When I saw you do this, it made me think this. Mhmm. Right? You don't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, even though this person will argue with you till the end of days, that they're not wrong. You as their manager can say, this is the impression you're giving.

不管这是否属实，我们需要改善这个印象。

Regardless of whether it's true or not, we need to work on the impression.

是的。

Yes.

那么我们可以做些什么不同的事情来改变这种印象？嗯。我要给出的另一点反馈是，与同事和睦相处是这个人工作的一部分。绝对。你可以说，这是你的工作。嗯。

So what can we do differently that will change that impression? Uh-huh. The other piece of feedback I would give is that it is part of this person's job to get along with their coworkers. Absolutely. And you can say, it's your job Mhmm.

与他人和睦相处。你不必说，这是你不合群的地方。这是你做的烦人的事。你可以说，这里有一些我希望你尝试的事情，以便与他人和睦相处。

To get along with others. And you don't have to say, here's where you're not getting along. Here's that annoying thing you did. You can say, here are some things I'd like you to try in order to get along with others.

嗯。

Mhmm.

给这个人一些积极的步骤去采取。对吧？你甚至可以说，你知道，当你这样做时，会被理解为缺乏合作。但如果你这样做，对吧，如果你问一个开放式的问题，如果你在别人的想法上加以发展而不是削弱它，如果你在会议上什么都不说只是听。嗯。对，那会建立合作，这就是我希望你做的。

Give this person some proactive steps to take. Right? You might even say, you know, when you do this, it's construed as lack of collaboration. But if you do this, right, if you ask an open ended question, if you build on someone's idea instead of undermining it, if you don't say anything in the meeting and just listen Mhmm. Right, that builds collaboration, and that's what I want you to do.

尝试这些步骤来建立合作。我认为经理们非常犹豫，当他们觉得，哦，这种被动攻击行为是这个人性格的一部分，你必须将行为与个人分开。这种行为是不可接受的。

Try these steps to build collaboration. I think managers are so hesitant when they feel like, oh, this passive aggressive behavior is it's that it's part of who the person is, and you have to separate the behavior from the person. The behavior is not acceptable.

对。如果你看到的行为没有促进组织发展，没有以某种方式增加积极的团队精神，那么你可以指出。是的。你知道，你可以说，我听到你刚才说的话，那不是很有建设性。嗯。

Right. If you see behavior that isn't building the organization, that isn't somehow adding to a positive esprit de corps, then you can call it out. Yeah. You know, you can say, I heard what you just said, and that was not very constructive. Mhmm.

是的。嗯，这可能不容易。我想另一点是，我们常说‘他们不可教也’，但现实可能是这个人确实难以被指导。嗯。

Yeah. Well, it may not be easy. That's I think the other thing is I think we often say, oh, they're not coachable. And it's the reality is this person may not be coachable. Mhmm.

但你必须尝试。我感觉她还没真正尝试过，因为觉得这个人太好斗、太爱争辩、太不愿承认错误，而他们其实不必这样也能继续前进。

But you have to try. I get the sense that she hasn't yet tried because it feels like this person's too combative, too argumentative, too unwilling to admit they're wrong, and they don't have to in order to move on.

我同意你的看法。我认为要记住的是，员工的态度与技术能力同等重要。嗯。如果这个人没有正确的态度，那就不适合留在你的团队。是的。

I agree with you. And I think that the thing to remember is that attitude is every bit as important as technical skills Mhmm. In an employee. And if this person isn't bringing the right attitude, then this person doesn't belong on your team. Yeah.

而且你可以对此采取行动。没错。

And you can do something about that. That's right.

我对写信人有些同情，因为他们的行为还没到可解雇的地步，而且他们总能为自己的言行找到理由或辩解，但这不意味着你必须容忍。

I have sympathy for our letter writer in that they're nothing's quite fireable, and they often have a reason why they said something or the argument of why it was okay, but that doesn't mean you have to tolerate it.

这时候就该找人力资源部了。是的。因为HR经常处理这类问题。

Well, this is where you go to HR. Yeah. Because HR deals with this all the time.

是的。另外，回想我们最初关于正式评估流程的问题，我也在想是否有360度评估机制。或许她可以获取些‘客观’反馈，这样就有数据向对方表明：‘你说情况是这样，但反馈中我们看到的模式是大家这样看待你。’

Yeah. The other thing, thinking back to our very first question around formal review process, I also wonder if there's a three sixty review process. If there's something where she can get a little bit more of quote unquote objective feedback that would help give her a little bit of data to bring to this person to say, you know, you say it's this, you say it's this, but what the patterns we're seeing in the feedback is that this is how you're perceived.

我百分之百同意，考虑到你是这方面的专家，这建议非常明智。毕竟你写过相关著作。

I agree with you a 100%, which is very wise given that you are the expert on this stuff. You did write the book.

我...我对这类问题感到兴奋时有点愧疚，因为知道有人正因此受苦，但这确实是我热衷探讨的话题。所以...

I I feel a little guilty at how excited I get about a question like this because I know there's someone suffering, but it is it is what I love to talk about. So

《职场女性》的编辑制作团队包括阿曼达·克西、莫琳·霍克、蒂娜·托比·麦克、汉娜·贝茨、罗伯·埃克哈特和伊恩·福克斯。节目主题音乐由罗宾·摩尔创作。

Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Toby Mac, Hannah Bates, Rob Eckhart, and Ian Fox. Robin Moore composed the show's theme music.

再见，各位。拜拜。

Bye, everyone. Bye bye.