有效经营的伴侣关系

您正在收听来自《哈佛商业评论》的《职场女性》。

You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review.

我是执行编辑莎拉·格林·卡迈克尔。

I'm Sarah Green Carmichael, executive editor.

我是副编辑妮可·托雷斯。

I'm Nicole Torres, associate editor.

我们的联合主持人艾米·伯恩斯坦在我们录制本集大部分内容时，正在参加世界经济论坛。

Our cohost, Amy Bernstein, was away at the World Economic Forum while we taped a lot of this episode,

但您稍后在节目中会听到她的声音。

but you'll hear from her a little later in the show.

本集探讨的是女性从配偶、伴侣或重要他人那里获得或未能获得的支持，因为深爱的人对我们的职业发展有着重大影响。

This episode is about the support that women get or don't get from their spouses, partners, and significant others Because the people we love have a big impact on us professionally.

一项关于双职业夫妻的研究发现，当亲密关系良好时，人们会在工作上投入更多时间。

One study of dual career couples found that people put more time in at work when their intimate relationships are going well.

另一项研究发现，当伴侣的尽责性得分较高时，个人更容易取得成功。

And another study found that people were more successful when their partner tested high in conscientiousness.

还有一项研究发现，虽然事业有成的女性显然乐于从伴侣那里获得情感支持，但真正让婚姻稳定的是获得实际帮助。

And then there's the one that found that while high achieving women are obviously happy to get emotional support from their partners, what really makes the marriage stable is getting material help.

比如洗衣、跑腿、照顾孩子和年迈的父母。

Laundry, errands, caring for children, and aging parents.

但INSEAD商学院的教授詹妮弗·佩特里格里对此有更细致的看法。

But Jennifer Patrigliere, a professor at INSEAD, has a nuanced take on that.

她研究了来自世界各国的50对双职工、高学历、异性恋夫妇。

She studied 50 dual career, highly educated, opposite sex couples from countries around the world.

她说那些事业成功的人并没有将家务完全对半分。

She says the ones who were thriving did not split chores fiftyfifty.

他们之间更像是相互配合、灵活分担。

It was much more kind of mutual and fluid between them.

这是因为这些伴侣给予彼此的实际支持源于深厚的共同心理支持。

That's because the practical support those couples were giving each other was coming from deep shared psychological support.

这正是我们在职业生涯中取得成功所需要的那种支持。

The kind of support we need if we're gonna thrive in our careers.

我们还要谈谈

We're also going to be

如果你长期得不到所需的支持，你的关系可能会发生什么变化。

talking about what can happen to your relationship in the long run if you don't get the support you need.

不过首先，让我们听听珍的分享。

First though, our conversation with Jen.

我们请她详细谈谈家庭中的心理支持如何塑造我们在职场中的自我认同。

We asked her to tell us more about her research on how the psychological support we get at home shapes our identities at work.

有一项即将发表的研究，是我和同事奥蒂莉亚·奥布达罗共同撰写的，研究的是双职业夫妻的心理层面。

So there's a study that's about to come out that's co authored with my colleague, Ottilia Obudaro, which is looking at the psychological aspects of being in a dual career couple.

我们发现，如果审视社会上关于双职业夫妻的叙事，普遍存在一种说法：这很艰难，需要付出大量努力，必须做出权衡、妥协和牺牲。

And what we find is that if you look at the narratives in society on dual career couples, there's very much this narrative around that it's hard and it's hard work and it requires trade offs and compromises and sacrifices.

如果我们深入分析，这种叙事实际上是一种零和博弈。

And if we drill down, this narrative is really what we might think of as a zero sum game.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以，总有一个赢家和一个输家。

So, there's a winner and a loser.

如果我们是一对伴侣，你赢的越多，我就输得越多。

And if we're in a couple, the more you win, the more I lose.

但我们的研究发现，实际情况却截然不同：确实存在一些伴侣，他们的关系完全建立在权衡、牺牲和妥协之上。

And what we found in our research was something actually quite different that yes, there are couples like that, where it is all about trade off and sacrifices and compromise.

但还有另一些伴侣，他们有着完全不同的思维方式。

But there are other couples who have a very different mindset.

有趣的是，这种思维方式会直接影响他们对职业的看法、职业中的行为以及他们的成功程度。

And what's interesting is that mindset then impacts how they think of their careers, what they do in their careers and how successful they are.

因此，他们不是在思考如何为自己争取最大利益而牺牲对方，而是关注如何为我们双方争取最好的结果。

So instead of trying to work out how I can get the best for me versus you, they're looking at how we can get the best for us.

所以，他们以一种完全不同的方式在心理上相互支持。

So they're really psychologically supporting each other in a different way.

你们的一项发现是，那些关系兴旺的伴侣会将对方视为你们所说的‘安全基地’。

One of your findings is that the thriving couples experienced each other as what you call a secure base.

什么是安全基地？

What is a secure base?

我们最初从伴侣那里渴望并认为需要的支持，往往是端茶送水式的安慰。

The support we often initially crave and we think about from our partners is very much the tea and sympathy support.

当我们职业生涯遇到挫折时，比如没得到晋升或没找到心仪的工作，我们的第一反应是想：‘我希望有人能宠着我、哄着我。’

So when we face a setback in our careers, like not getting that promotion or not getting the job we wanted, our immediate reaction is to think, you know, I want a little bit of mollycoddling.

我希望有人站在我这边，告诉我我很好，把我好好地保护起来。

I want someone who's going to take my side, tell me I'm great and sort of cocoon me.

但我们发现，真正重要的支持是这种安慰加上推动你前进的力量。

But what we find the support that really matters is that plus this push out.

也就是说，从那种安全感的毯子、保护罩中把你推出来，告诉你：‘好吧，你打算怎么处理这件事？’

So this push away from that security blanket, that safety blanket and this telling well you know what are you going to do about that?

你打算怎么改变现状？

How are you going to change this?

你打算怎么把这个世界变成你想要的样子？

How are you going to make it the world you want to make it?

这看似反直觉的地方在于，我们并没有把伴侣紧紧留在身边，而是以一种充满爱的方式将他们从关系中推离，不干扰他们的探索。

And so what's counterintuitive about that is instead of keeping our partners very close, we're actually pushing them away from the relationship obviously in a loving way and we're not interfering with that exploration.

我们并没有说：你有没有做过这个？

We're not saying you know have you done this?

你有没有跟进？

Have you followed up?

你有没有做XYZ？

Have you done XYZ?

我们真正做的是给予伴侣独立的空间，让他们按照自己的需要去探索、成长和发展。

We're really giving our partners the independence to go and explore and grow and develop in the way they need to.

有时候，这可能感觉并不太好，对吧？

And sometimes this might not feel very nice, right?

我们都渴望爱、同情和拥抱。

We all want that love and sympathy and the cuddles.

当我们感到脆弱和不安时，往往并不想被重新推回这个世界。

And sometimes when we're feeling vulnerable and wobbly, we don't really want to be pushed back out into the world.

但我们从数十年的心理发展研究中得知，这才是我们茁壮成长的方式。

But we know from many, many decades of studies on psychological development that this is how we thrive.

这就是我们发展和成长的方式。

This is how we develop and grow.

通过自己爬起来，再次走出去，重新尝试并探索，我们才能成长。

It's by picking ourselves up and going back out there and trying again and exploring.

你能从你自己的经历中给我们举一个例子，说明什么是安全基地吗？

Can you give us an example of what being a secure base looks like from your own experience?

是的，我想说。

Yeah, so I'm going

我想举一个例子，这可能对许多女性听众和许多伴侣来说都很熟悉。

to give an example which might be familiar to many of your women listeners and to many of the couples.

我生了两个孩子，时间相隔很近。

So I had two children relatively close together.

他们相差十六个月，那段时间对我来说非常忙碌。

So they were sixteen months apart and it was a period that was very busy for me.

我当时正在攻读博士学位，家里有两个不到两岁的孩子。

I was doing my PhD, we had two under twos.

任何有过两个不到两岁孩子的人家都知道，这有多疯狂，又有多美好，但确实很疯狂。

For anyone who's ever had two under twos, they know how crazy that can be and how wonderful it is, but it is crazy.

和每一位女性一样，我也曾经历过一段觉得自己实在撑不下去的时期。

And like every woman, I went through a period of thinking, I just cannot keep this up.

对吧？

Right?

我根本不可能同时维持我的事业，又成为我想成为的那种母亲。

There is no way I can keep my career going and be the kind of mother I wanted to be to these children.

在这样的时刻，许多女性会从伴侣和其他人那里收到各种建议。

And at times like that, many, many women get messages from their partners and from other people around them.

别担心，休息一阵子吧，会好起来的。

Don't worry, take some time out, it'll be fine.

我们知道，这种建议会彻底毁掉你的事业，对吧？

And we know that that's a total career killer, right?

我们知道女性想要重返职场有多难。

We know how hard it is for women to get back in.

这件事也发生在我身上，我丈夫对我说：你绝对不能放弃你的事业。

Well, this happened to me and my husband said to me, there is no way you are giving up your career.

我不会让你放弃的。

I'm not going to let you.

你会后悔的。

You will regret it.

那时候，我真的很喜欢这样吗？

Now at that time, did I like it very much?

不。

No.

但他是对的吗？

But was he right?

当然对。

Absolutely.

如果他当时没有那么做，我今天绝不可能站在这里。

And if he hadn't have done that, there is no way I will be here today.

我非常感激他当时推了我一把。

And I am incredibly grateful that he pushed me.

当然，他也一直支持我，努力帮我重整旗鼓。

And of course he was also supportive and trying to dust me off.

但如果不是他当时踢了我一脚让我坚持下去，我的职业生涯绝不会有今天的成就。

But if he hadn't have given me that kick to carry on, my career would just not be where it is today.

我认为我们在选择退出这件事上能看到这一点。

And I think we can see this in the opting out.

很多女性没有得到那种充满爱意的推动。

So many women don't get that loving kick.

她们得到了关怀和同情，也得到了支持，但缺少那一点额外的推力，而这本可以为她们的事业带来真正的改变。

They get the tea and sympathy and they get the support, but they don't get that little extra push that would really make the difference in their careers.

我猜我们的很多听众可能是那些有抱负、勤奋工作、非常忙碌的女性与男性。

I'm gonna guess that a lot of our listeners are probably ambitious, hardworking, terribly busy women and men.

我们可以通过哪些小但有意义的方式支持我们的伴侣呢？

What are some small but meaningful ways that we can all show support for our partners?

我来告诉你三件事。

I'm gonna give you three things.

第一件事是关系层面的，无论你的伴侣是否有事业都适用。

The first is a relational thing, if you like, which applies whether your partner has a career or not.

在当今这个时代，我们都缺乏关注。

In these days, we are attention deprived.

我们总是在线，总是盯着设备，脑子里总有一份待办清单在运转。

Okay, we are always on, always on a device, always have to do list running on our brain.

我们都很忙。

We're very busy.

我们可能还有孩子要照顾，需要给他们做饭、读睡前故事。

We may have children running around who we need to feed and read bedtime stories.

很难真正关注彼此。

It's very hard to pay each other attention.

然而，每天仅仅五分钟的全神贯注也能对一段关系产生巨大的影响。

And yet even five minutes of total undivided attention every day can go a million miles in a relationship.

这既体现在被理解、被倾听的感觉上，也体现在获得支持的感觉上。

And that's both in terms of feeling understood, feeling heard and also feeling supported.

你知道吗，我经常和伴侣们做一个练习，我会问他们，你们上一次坐下来五分钟什么都不说，只是倾听伴侣是什么时候？

You know, I often do an exercise with the couples where I'll ask them, you know, when was the last time you just sat down for five minutes and said nothing, but just listen to your partner?

就像一个简单的问题：你今天过得怎么样？

Like a simple question, how was your day?

并且只是倾听，不打断，不试图联系到你自己的经历，就五分钟。

And just listen, not interrupting, not kind of connecting to something that happened to you, just five minutes.

我认为这确实有助于改善关系，也能提供那种支持。

I think that's one thing that will really help the relationship, but also help that support.

我认为第二点是认识到事情会变得艰难，而这没关系。

I think the second thing is actually a recognition that things will be tough and that's okay.

我认为很多时候，尤其是在当今时代，我们被塑造成认为我们需要一直快乐，一切都需要一直顺利。

I think very often, especially in today's day and age, we're sort of molded to think we need to be happy all the time and things need to be going well all the time.

如果不是这样，那就是我有问题。

And if it's not, there's something wrong with me.

你知道，一边工作一边生活很难，如果两个人都试图追求事业，那就更难了，但这一切都非常有意义。

Well, you know, it is hard having a career and it's even harder if you're both trying to have a career, but it's very meaningful.

我认为，无论是个人还是伴侣，都要认识到，总会有一些时刻非常痛苦，但这没关系。

And I think just to recognize individually and in the couple that there will be moments where it is pretty painful, but that's okay.

而我们能够应对这些时刻，这一点非常重要。

And we can deal with them is really important.

这其中一部分是管理期望，另一部分则是认识到，如果我们回想起在伴侣关系和事业中最有意义的时刻，往往正是那些我们经历过的痛苦时刻，当我们挺过来之后，会说，我们一起度过了那段时光，这很好。

And part of this is a managing expectations, but also part of it is a recognition that very often, if we all think back on the most meaningful times in our couples and our careers, they're very often those painful times which we come through and afterwards we can say, you know, we got through that together and it was good.

所以，我认为要管理好这些期望。

So I think about managing those expectations.

第三件事是抽出时间——同样，这不需要每天都做。

And then the third thing is to take the time, again, this doesn't need to be every day.

也不需要每周都做，但要时不时地进行一些预防性的对话。

It doesn't need to be every week, but take the time every so often to have those preemptive conversations.

我们个人和共同的目标是什么？

What is it we're aiming for individually and together?

什么能让我们茁壮成长？

What is it that's gonna make us thrive?

为了实现这个目标，我们可能需要做出哪些选择？

And what choices might we need to make to make that happen?

因为很多时候，一个决定突然降临，我们不得不在弄清自己想要什么的同时做出决定，同时还要考虑如何与彼此协调。

Because all too often, a decision sort of comes upon us and we're trying to make the decision at the same time as figuring out what we want, and at the same time as figuring out how that's gonna fit in with each other.

冲突往往就是在那个时候爆发的。

And that's when the conflicts really arise.

所以如果我们能抽出时间，哪怕一年只有两次，真正坐下来思考我们想要什么——这并非长达十五年的未来规划，可能只是未来一两年的事情。

So if we can take that time, even if it's just twice a year to really sit down and think about what we want, and this isn't like fifteen years in the future planning, It might just be the next year or two years.

但比如接下来会发生什么，以及我们如何在进入救火阶段之前共同解决这些问题？

But like what's coming up and how are we going to make this work together before we get to that firefighting phase?

那将会非常了不起。

That would be exceptional.

你和合著者为此研究采访的50对夫妇来自世界各地。

So the 50 couples that you interviewed for this research with your coauthor were drawn from all over the world.

跟我们说说你们观察到的文化差异。

Tell us about any cultural differences that you observed.

当然存在一些明显的文化差异。

So there were the obvious cultural differences.

比如在中东的一些国家、一些亚洲国家，男性拥有我们通常认为的主导职业，而女性则拥有次要职业的情况更为普遍。

You know, some countries in The Middle East, some Asian countries, it was perhaps much more common for the man to have what we think of as the primary career and the woman to have the secondary career.

当然，这些夫妇双方都有不错的职业，但在涉及地理迁移或需要频繁出差时，通常会优先考虑男性的事业。

Now, of course, in these couples both have good careers, but in terms of whose career takes priority for say a geographic move or if you need to travel a lot, it would be the man.

但更大的趋势其实体现在家庭支持上。

The big trends though actually came in family support.

在许多国家，比如非洲国家和许多亚洲国家，一位三四十岁的母亲请假在家照顾孩子反而会显得很不寻常。

So in many countries, if we look at the African countries, in many Asian countries, it would be rather strange for a mother of 30s and forties to take time out and look after the children.

因为这正是一个人经济生产力最旺盛的年龄段。

Because this is a person in prime productive economic age.

因此，在育儿方面有大量的家庭支持，这大大减轻了双职业夫妻的压力。

So there's a lot of family support in child drowning, which takes a lot of the pressure off dual career couples.

但真正有趣的差异实际上是代际差异。

But the really interesting difference actually is a generational difference.

如果我们考虑职业优先级，大致有三种形式。

So, if we think of career prioritization, there's three basic forms.

一种是主次分明，另一种是次要的。

There's the primary, secondary.

还有一种是轮流担任，即双方轮流担任主要和次要角色，每隔几年轮换一次。

There's a turn taking where we both take turns in the primary position and the secondary position and sort of rotate every few years.

还有一种我们称之为双主职，即双方都有主要职业，但会设定一些界限。

And then there's something we call double primary where we've both got a primary career, but we have some boundaries around it.

比如说，我们决定以纽约为基地，不再搬离纽约，但在这一范围内，双方都可以全力发展自己的事业。

Let's say we're going to base ourselves in New York and not move outside New York, but within that we can both go full steam ahead in our careers.

我们发现，对于年轻一代——大约45岁以下的人来说，无论性别如何，宣称自己是主要或次要职业似乎都没有任何劣势。

What we found was that for the younger generation, so maybe below about 45, there didn't seem to be a penalty if you like for the genders of saying they were primary or secondary careers.

有很多男性虽然是次要职业，却很乐意坦承这一点，女性也是如此。

There were men who were secondary careers who were very happy to say so, likewise women.

当我们观察年长一代时，情况就非常非常困难了。

When we looked at the older generation, it was very, very hard.

我们完全没有遇到任何一对夫妇说他们没有明确的主次之分。

We had absolutely no couples say that they weren't primary, secondary.

丈夫是主要职业，妻子是次要职业。

The man being primary, the woman being secondary.

女性似乎很难承认自己拥有主要职业，即使从外部来看，她们明显就是如此。

It seemed difficult for the women to claim that primary career, even when from the outside looking in, it really looked like they had it.

同样，男性也很难放弃主要职业的位置。

And equally, you know, for the men to let go of that primary career slot.

所以我认为这是一个非常有趣的发现，它在年轻一代中正在逐渐消解，这真是一个很好的迹象。

So I think that's quite an interesting finding which is breaking down in the younger generations, which is a really great sign.

好吧，珍，这真是一次非常棒的对话。

Well, Jen, this has just been a wonderful conversation.

非常感谢你抽出时间。

Thank you so much for making the time.

能和你聊天真好，莎拉。

It's great to talk to you, Sarah.

谢谢你，珍。

Thank you, Jen.

谢谢你，妮可。

Thank you, Nicole.

我觉得这非常有趣。

I thought that was super fascinating.

她太棒了。

She was amazing.

因为我们常常听到关于实际支持的故事，但女性却更少得到那种充满爱意的推动。

Because I think we often hear about practical support, but women are less likely to get the loving kick.

这对我很有帮助，因为我觉得有时候我会把所有这些不同的事情混为一谈。

That was helpful for me because I think sometimes I'm guilty of mixing up all those different things.

我从丈夫那里得到了很多深层次的支持。

I get a lot of the deeper kind of support from my husband.

然后我会看到没整理的床，突然暴怒，觉得这都是父权制的错。

And then I will look at like the unmade bed and fly into a rage and just be like, this is the patriarchy.

不，不是这样的。

Like, no.

这仅仅就是一张没整理的床而已。

It's just it's just an unmade bed.

从那之后我意识到，我自己其实并不擅长给予那种充满爱意的推动。

Something I also realized coming out of that is that I'm not so good at giving that loving kick.

我是个提供茶水和安慰的人，总会说：‘哦，是啊。’

I am the tea and sympathy person who's like, oh, that Yeah.

听起来是这样，而我意识到，部分原因在于期望值的问题。

Sounds so And I realized like I mean, in part, it's expectations.

对吧？

Right?

这看起来好像很刻薄。

It's like, it seems mean.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且，这也不一定是对方真正想听的话。

It also maybe isn't always what the person really wants to hear.

是的。

Yeah.

但有时候，这可能是他们需要听到的，也许有一种方式可以让它听起来更容易接受。

But it's sometimes maybe what they need to hear and maybe there's a way of doing it that feels acceptable.

对。

Yeah.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我也不确定我丈夫会不会同意我不太会给予那种充满爱意的推动。

I also don't know if my husband would agree that I don't do the loving kick.

他可能会说，哦，你大概

He'd probably be like, oh, you're probably

挺好的。

just fine.

你确实如此。

You do.

但至少这是某种

But it's at least something

我们可以思考并询问伴侣的事情。

we can think about and, like, ask a partner.

比如，你希望多一些这样的事吗？

Like, is this something you would want more of?

也许他们会说不，但也许他们也会说，嗯，实际上，稍微大声提醒一下可能会有帮助。

Maybe they'll say no, but then maybe they'll also say, like, yeah, actually, a little shout out the door might be helpful.

听到珍说，年轻夫妇似乎正在学会如何应对这种双职业模式，以及如何互相支持、平衡彼此的职业发展，这很有趣。

So it's interesting to hear from Jen that younger couples seem to be figuring out how to kind of do this dual career thing, and figuring out how to support each other and balance each other's careers.

但看起来，她研究的那些年长夫妇仍然深深陷在传统的角色中，难以摆脱。

But it seems like the older couples she studied are still really kind of locked in those traditional roles and having a hard time.

是的。

Yeah.

皮尤研究中心的一项研究发现，年轻成年人的离婚率正在下降。

A Pew study actually found that divorce is becoming less common for younger adults.

但对于50岁及以上的成年人来说，离婚率自20世纪90年代以来实际上翻了一番。

But for adults ages 50 and older, the divorce rate has actually doubled since the nineteen nineties.

所谓的‘灰 divorces’正在增加。

The so called gray divorce is on the rise.

因此，我们的下一位嘉宾是阿维娃·威滕伯格·考克斯。

So that's why our next guest is Aviva Wittenberg Cox.

她是一位顾问，也是新书《晚来的爱：成熟期的恋爱与结合》的作者。

She's a consultant and the author of the new book, Late Love, Mating and Maturity.

在为这本书做研究时，她采访了许多这些婴儿潮一代的异性伴侣，他们似乎在相互支持方面遇到了极大的困难。

And in doing research for that book, she talked to a lot of these baby boomer opposite sex couples who are just seemingly having a really tough time supporting each other.

她为我们写了一篇非常受欢迎的文章，标题是《如果你找不到支持你事业的配偶，那就保持单身》。

And she wrote a really popular article for us called, If You Can't Find a Spouse Who Supports Your Career, Stay Single.

在文章中，她写道，即使对于那些致力于平等的伴侣来说，也要有两位特别的人才能顺利应对双事业的复杂局面。

And in it, she writes, even for couples who are committed to equality, it takes two exceptional people to navigate tricky dual career waters.

是的。

Yes.

所以我们和阿维娃讨论了如何

So we talked to Aviva about how

找到一个支持你事业的配偶，以及如果遇到不支持你的配偶该怎么做。

to find a spouse who supports your career, and then what to also do if you have one who does not.

艾米首先问了她自己的经历。

Amy started by asking her about her own experience.

所以，阿维娃，你在50岁时结束了长达二十多年的婚姻。

So, Aviva, you left a a twenty plus year marriage at age 50.

你多年来一直研究职场中的性别差异，并且最近再婚了。

You have studied gender differences in the workplace for years, and you've recently remarried.

你进入第二次婚姻时，和第一次有什么不同？

How did you go into your second marriage differently from the way you went into your first?

我有了更多的自我认知，并且把自己的愿望和梦想表达得非常清晰。

A lot more self knowledge, and I made all of my desires and dreams really, really clear.

我处于一种更加平静和成熟的状态，以便倾听那个有着自己故事的另一个人。

And I was in a much sort of calmer and more mature place in order to listen to the other human being who had his own story.

我怎样才能真正发挥最好的作用？

And how could I really be of best use?

我认为我最终离开并再婚的原因是，在这段关系中，我真的知道如何让另一个人比我离开他时更幸福。

I I think in the end why I really left and why I remarried is in this relationship, I really know how to make another human being way happier than he could have been without me.

我认为他也知道，他同样能为我做到这一点。

And I think he know it does the same for me.

在这段第二次婚姻中，你学到了什么来帮助自己更快乐？

In this second marriage, what have you learned to help yourself be happier?

我通常说有两件事：学会更加有爱，也更加值得被爱。

I usually say that there are two things: learning to be more loving and more lovable.

所以我认为这两点都涉及自我觉察和技能培养，以真正聚焦时间、注意力和意图。

And so I think both of those are kind of self awareness and skill building to really focus time, attention, intention.

我们花了很多时间讨论和分享关于这段关系的内容，比如我们彼此需要什么，以及我们最想要和期待对方给予什么。

We spend a lot of time talking and sharing about the relationship, about what do we need from each other, about what we most want and prefer from the other person.

因此，我认为这是一种技能，是以符合他人需求的方式去表达爱。

So I think that's kind of skill and being loving in a way that is appropriate to the needs of some other human being.

而变得可爱，我认为对很多强势女性来说是个真正的问题。

And then being lovable is, I think, a real issue for a lot of power women.

我们习惯了强大、掌控一切、追求完美、主导一切。

We're used to being strong, in control, perfectionist, taking charge, doing everything.

要成为一个可爱的人，有时并不容易。

It's not always the easiest person to be lovable.

这看起来太难了，因为女性如果想成功，想成为强势女性、女老板，往往没有机会去展现脆弱和可爱。

It just seems so hard because women, like, aren't afforded the chance to be that, to be vulnerable and lovable, you know, if they want to succeed, if they want to become a power woman, a lady boss.

我认为这正是对的，而且我认为这正是强势女性在寻找伴侣时的核心秘密。

I think that's exactly right, and I think that's the secret in the spouse the power women are looking for.

是那些爱女人hood全部多样性的男人。

It's men who love the full spectrum of what womanhood is becoming.

没错，我们可以在需要时超级强大、超级成功、超级坚韧，也可以超级温柔、超级脆弱。

That, yeah, we can be super powerful, super successful, super tough when required, and we can be super soft, super vulnerable.

你知道吗？

And you know what?

我们想要的男人也是如此。

We want men who are exactly the same.

所以我很想多了解一些你对双职业夫妻所做的研究，以及职业支持在关系中有多重要。

So I'd love to learn a little bit more about the research you've done on dual career couples and how much career support, how important that's become in relationships.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这并不是所谓的职业支持。

So it's not so much, like, career support.

这是我所使用的框架。

That's the frame that I use.

更重要的是，伴侣之间是否能够相互促进成长？

It's more about this notion of, are couples mutually self enhancing?

我发现，随着他们年龄增长，孩子离家后——通常是在五十岁左右——这些女性突然发现，令她们自己也感到惊讶的是，她们正迎来职业生涯中最辉煌的十年，而不是在回首过去。

And then what I found is as they grew older and as the children left, which was usually somewhere in these fifties, these women suddenly discovered, much to their surprise quite often, that they were facing their best career decades, Not looking back at them.

于是，她们的职业突然开始腾飞，迎来了新的机会：有的创办了新企业，有的写了书，有的开始环游世界，无论她们的职业道路要求什么，她们都去追求。

And so suddenly their careers were kind of taking off and they had new opportunities and they'd set up new businesses or write books or start traveling the globe, whatever their career was asking for them.

与此同时，她们的配偶往往经历了更为线性的职业周期，在30岁到50岁之间高强度、持续上升，现在却开始考虑退休，想着放慢节奏、打高尔夫、登上邮轮。

At the same time that their spouses were often, who had had a much more linear career cycle with a lot of intensity and unbroken sort of upper out from 30 to 50, we're starting to think about retirement and starting to think about slowing down and playing golf and getting on a cruise ship.

这两种人生愿景无法相互兼容，这常常带来巨大冲击，尤其是对那些原本期望妻子能像过去一样，成为自己工作生活中伴侣的男性而言。

And those two dreams can not be mutually, complementary, and they can come as a bit of a shock, particularly to the men who expected their wives to be their partners at play the way they had been their partners throughout their working lives.

你知道吗？我想把镜头拉远一点，问问你如何看待女性职业生涯的四个阶段，因为我觉得你谈论的只是其中一个阶段，但实际上背后有更多复杂的情况。

You know, I'd love to pull the camera back a little bit and ask you to talk about what you see as the four phases of a woman's career, because I think you're talking about one phase, but there's actually a lot more going on there.

是的。

Yeah.

很多离婚的根源在于，早期阶段积累的未解决的问题终于爆发了。

And the reason for a lot of the divorce is that the what happens is pent up unresolved issues from the earlier phases.

二十多岁现在真的是一个充满抱负的十年。

The twenties is really a decade now of ambition.

这些有抱负的年轻女性往往会推迟许多个人选择。

Those ambitious young women tend to delay a lot of personal choices.

因此，她们在统计上结婚较晚、生育较晚，目前平均而言，这些事情都发生在30到35岁之间，而这正是大多数公司开始大力识别高潜力人才的时期。

So they tend to statistically marry later, have children later, and they tend to do all of those things on average right now somewhere between 30 and 35, which is exactly the same time that most companies start really gearing up their high potential identification moments.

这绝不是要歧视女性，但它确实对有家庭的女性造成了不公平的沉重压力，而且对男性也越来越如此。

And that's not meant at all to discriminate against women, but it really hits unfairly hard on women who have families and increasingly on men too.

四十多岁是我称之为重新加速的阶段，但很多女性所处的工作环境并不支持这个年龄段的人重新加速发展。

The forties, which is a phase I call re acceleration, a lot of them are not necessarily in workplaces that are open to re accelerating people at that age.

因此，女性的职业周期与男性之间存在一定程度的不匹配，只有少数公司真正调整了他们的职业和领导力发展体系来应对这个问题。

So there's a little bit of a non alignment between women's career cycles and men's, which is only really addressed by a certain number of companies that have really flexed their career and leadership development systems.

这很遗憾，因为这些受过高等教育、非常聪明的女性，仅仅短暂 plateau 后重新加速，往往能带来丰厚回报。

And it's a shame because this reacceleration of highly educated, really smart women who've only been plateauing for a little while pays off.

正如我所说，当她们进入五十多岁时，还将继续工作二十年，那时她们正处于承诺、时间、知识、人脉等各方面的巅峰状态。

And as I say, they end up with women coming into their 50s who are going to be working for another twenty years, who are at the peak of their commitment, their time, their knowledge, their networks and everything.

我们谈了很多关于男性和女性的话题，但我很好奇，你们从同性伴侣那里听到的是不是同样的故事？

We've talked a lot about men and women, but I'm wondering if you hear different stories from same sex couples, the same stories.

你们在那里听到的是什么？

What do you hear there?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这与其说是性别问题，不如说是角色问题。

I I find it's not so much an issue of gender as it is an issue of role.

所以在同性伴侣中，我听到的是——但我并没有大量数据。

So in same sex couples, what I hear and I don't have, like, huge banks.

我得承认，我没有大量的专门研究数据，而且我认为目前还没有足够的研究能下定论。

I'm I'm I'll make a quota that I don't have a huge banks of specialized research, and I don't think there's that much of enough of it yet to really say.

但根据我所观察到的情况，我认为在同性伴侣中，也存在类似的谱系：谁的职业占主导、谁是追随者、谁承担主要育儿责任、谁轮流承担、谁扮演稍显阳刚的角色、谁扮演稍显阴柔的角色。

But it would seem to me from what I have seen that inside same sex couples, there's a same sort of spectrum of who has a lead career, a follow career, who has primary parenting responsibility, who takes turns, who has a slightly more masculine role, who has a slightly more feminine role.

但在我看来，这与异性伴侣中所发现的动态或问题并没有显著差异。

But it doesn't strike me as being, like, dramatically different from the dynamics that you would find or the issues that you find in same sex couples.

你对那些考虑与他人共同建立生活的女性有什么建议吗？

What advice do you have for women who are thinking about preparing to build a life with someone?

她们应该进行什么样的对话？

What conversation should they be having?

我认为，对于这一代极具抱负的年轻女性来说，你的伴侣是否像关心自己的事业一样，对你事业充满热情和兴趣？

I think for this young generation of really ambitious women, do you have a spouse who is as excited and interested in your career as in their own?

有哪些迹象可以表明这一点？

What are some signs that might indicate that?

我认为倾听是一个很重要的方面。

I think listening is a big one.

他们真的喜欢听你讲述工作中的故事吗？

Do they actually enjoy listening to your stories about your work?

他们是急于插话帮你解决问题，还是帮助你理清你可能想如何回应？

Do they kind of jump in and wanna fix your problems, or do they kinda help you in figuring out what it is you might want to respond?

他们是否对你的情况有深入思考过的想法？

And do they have, like, really thought through ideas about your situation?

在平衡家庭生活时，你们花多少时间讨论你的事业和问题， versus 他们的事业和问题？

And how much time do you spend at home in the balance talking about your career and your issues versus talking about their career and their issues?

我认为关键是留意这种平衡。

And I think it's just keeping an eye on that balance.

对吧？

Right?

另外，如果你去参加晚宴，谁的话题更能吸引大家的注意？

And the other thing I would say, if you go out to a dinner party, who is getting all the interest in whatever it is they do?

另一半对此感到舒服吗？

And is that okay with the other partner?

我听到很多成功女性反馈说，她们的配偶非常讨厌陪她们出席公开或职业场合，因为在那些场合，她们的丈夫只会被称作‘某某的丈夫’，而不是以自己的职业身份被认可。

What I heard a lot of feedback from these successful women is their spouses really hated accompanying them into public and professional, venues where they became mister her name as opposed to their own professional identity.

你要确保你找的这个人足够自信、内心安稳，能够笑着坦然说：‘是啊，我老婆挣的钱是我两倍。’

And you wanna be sure that you've got a guy who's really comfortable enough in his own skin and his own self confidence that, you know, he laughs and says, yeah, no, my wife, she makes, you know, twice what I do.

这难道不很棒吗？

Isn't it great?

那么，阿维娃，当我们中一些长期婚姻中的人突然获得事业上的提升时会发生什么？

So what happens, Aviva, when some of us in in long term marriages have suddenly gotten a career boost?

之前没有人讨论过这个问题。

No one had discussed this ahead of time.

这会改变权力动态。

It changes the power dynamic.

你们如何进行这样的对话？

How do you have the conversation?

这确实是个很棘手的问题。

It's it is a really tough one.

这确实是个很棘手的问题。

It is a really tough one.

所以我觉得这在很大程度上取决于夫妻双方。

So I think it depends so much on the couple.

对吧？

Right?

有些夫妻习惯于进行定期、深入且持续的对话。

There are some couples that are used to having regular, deep, consistent conversations.

但也有很多夫妻并不如此。

There are others that really aren't.

其中一个挑战，也是我认为婴儿潮一代离婚和再婚率激增的原因，是许多婴儿潮一代的男性从未接受过如何在家与妻子深入讨论个人和职业角色、梦想及相互交替的教育或社会熏陶。

And one of the challenges and why I think you're seeing such a spike in boomer divorces and remarriages is I think a lot of boomer men have not really been educated or socialized in having deep, intimate discussions at home involving personal and professional roles and dreams and alternating with their wives.

我认为，对某些人来说，这比对其他人更难做到。

I think that's just not yet as easy for some as for others.

因此，当这些情况突然出现在一对夫妻身上时，你会意识到：我的配偶是否准备好投入进来，重新定义我们的关系以及各自的角色？

And so what happens when those things suddenly alight into a couple is you discover, is my spouse ready to lean in into redefining what our relationship is and what are our respective roles.

有些人会很喜欢，说：‘这太棒了。’

Some people will love that, say, oh, this is so cool.

变化。

Change.

我喜欢这样。

I love it.

我们太无聊了。

We were boring.

我们陷入僵局了。

We got we were in a rut.

而其他人会完全震惊。

And others are gonna be absolutely horrified.

什么？

What?

等一下。

Wait a minute.

我们有过约定。

We had an agreement.

我们已经在一起三十年了。

We've been in this for thirty years.

你这话是什么意思？

What the hell do you mean?

你知道，你想成为某个著名明星。

You know, you wanna be some famous star.

我没有...你知道，那不是我所想要的。

I didn't I you know, that's not what I want.

然后通常会出现一点危机。

And then there's usually a bit of a crisis.

对吧？

Right?

真正成功的长期婚姻中会有很多这样的阶段，你需要学会如何度过它们，如何重新投入，如何进行那些对话。

And really successful long marriages have a lot of them, and you learn how to get through them, how to reengage, how to have those conversations.

那么，阿维娃，趁着你在这里，我想问你文章中提到的另一件事。

So, Aviva, while we have you, there was something else from your article that I wanted to ask you about.

你写道，职业上有抱负的女性在选择人生伴侣时实际上只有两种选择：要么找一个超级支持你的伴侣，要么干脆不要伴侣。

You wrote that professionally ambitious women really have only two options when it comes to their personal partners, a super supportive partner or no partner at all.

介于两者之间的任何选择最终都会成为消耗士气和职业发展的泥潭。

Anything in between ends up being a morale and career sapping morass.

我想知道，你所接触的女性中有多少比例陷入了这种困境，她们能做些什么？

I'm curious to know what percentage of the women you've spoken with are in that morass, and what can they do?

我的意思是，她们已经签字画押了。

I mean, they've already signed on the dotted line.

你知道的？

You know?

她们已经深陷其中了。

They're in it.

她们有没有什么办法可以在不离开伴侣的情况下摆脱这种处境？

Is there anything that they can do to get out of that situation without necessarily leaving their partner?

有。

Yes.

当然有。

Absolutely.

我的意思是，再次强调，把你的所有领导力都用上。

I mean and, again, I think bring all your leadership skills.

你知道的。

You know?

开始审查协议。

Start reviewing the agreement.

开始重新谈判合同。

Start renegotiating the contract.

开始探索。

Start exploring.

并不是人们不知道该怎么做，对吧？

It's not like people don't know how to do this, right?

每次你在工作中、团队里或任何地方遇到问题时，不都是这样做的吗？

You do this every single time you have an issue with anybody at work, in a team or right?

你会开始说，好吧，你的立场是什么？

You start saying, okay, what's your position?

我的立场又是什么？

What's my position?

我们谈谈吧。

Let's talk.

如果我们需要调解帮助，我们会请一位教练来协助。

If we need a facilitation help, we'll get a coach in.

我们大多数女性在和我一起工作时，往往容易变得怨恨、愤怒、苦涩、强硬、被动攻击，你知道的。

Where we could learn to get better at this, as most of the women I'm working with, is we tend to get resentful, angry, bitter, hard, passive aggressive, you know.

我们受了伤，所以会反过来咬人。

We're wounded, and so we bite back.

我认为我们需要依靠自己的资源，比如其他朋友、教练，来疗愈自己、增强自我，然后以一种充满支持的力量，用比我们最初能表现出的更温和、更有爱的语气开始谈判。

And I think we need to sort of heal ourselves with our own resources, our own other friends, coaches, to build ourselves up and then start this negotiation from a place of supported strength, but in a much nicer, more loving tone than a lot of us are initially able to do.

所以简而言之，如果只有一件事，你希望人们更好地理解性别平等在关系中究竟是如何运作的？

So bottom line, like, if there's one thing, what do you want people to understand better about how gender equality really works in a relationship?

它正在快速变化，女性每十年都在改变，而男性必须适应我们如今在这个世界上所拥有的女性所带来的后果。

That it's changing fast, that women are changing every decade, and that men will have to adapt to the consequences of the women that we now have in the world.

那些庆祝、接纳并热爱这一变化的男性，将拥有更美好的性生活、更幸福的家庭生活，以及更加坚韧的伴侣关系。

And men who celebrate it and embrace it and adore what's happening are gonna have better sex, happier home lives, and much, much more resilient couples.

谢谢你，阿维娃。

Thank you, Aviva.

不客气。

My pleasure.

谢谢你，阿维娃。

Thank you, Aviva.

好的。

Okay.

回头聊。

Talk to you.

再见。

Bye bye.

我还在思考的一件事是，在双职工婚姻中，你真的必须准备好重新协商婚姻的条款。

One of the things that I'm still chewing on is that in a two career marriage, you really have to be prepared to renegotiate the terms of the marriage.

你必须非常清楚自己和伴侣内心的想法，并且要敏锐地察觉其中的敏感点，同时有勇气去面对它们。

And you have to be very aware of what's going on in your head, what's going on in your partner's head, and you have to be alive to the sensitivities and brave enough to take them on.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

我得到的启示是，在进入这些关系之前，在重新谈判之前，你必须一开始就设定好条款。

And what I took away is before you enter those relationships, before you do the renegotiating, you have to set the terms initially.

你必须和对方讨论你的抱负、职业目标以及其他梦想。

You have to have conversations about, you know, your ambitions, your career goals, your other dreams.

你还要看看你打算投入感情的这个人，是否愿意支持你。

And you have to see if your partner, this person you're thinking about investing in is willing to support you.

不仅要支持你，还要愿意在条款变化后重新协商。

And not just support you, but be willing to renegotiate later if the terms change.

我觉得有趣的一点是，她提到当女性在五十多岁时离开婚姻时，实际上往往是女性主动离开。

One of the things I thought was interesting too was that she talked about how when women are leaving these marriages in their fifties, it's actually the women who are leaving.

这和二十五年前人们可能以为的情况不同，那时通常是男人离开去追求年轻貌美的妻子，或者娶了自己的秘书。

It's not necessarily what you would have thought of twenty five years ago maybe where it was like the man leaving to have a trophy wife, you know, or marrying his secretary.

因为随着女性经济实力和自信心的增强，她们不再愿意忍受不理想的关系。

It's that as women gain more economic power and more confidence, they're not willing to put up with something that's subpar.