与缺乏安全感的欺凌者相处

那么告诉我，你现在希望从这种状况中得到什么？你希望有什么不同？你最终的目标是什么？

So tell me what right now do you want from this situation? Like, what is it you want different? What's your goal ultimately here?

我确实想找到一种方法来修复和他的关系，因为在我们拥有良好信任关系、他会听取我的意见并付诸行动的那些时候，我们合作得非常非常好。后来发生了一些事情，现在他急于向世界证明什么，而且想独自完成。是的，这带来了巨大的压力和紧张，他直接把这种压力传递给我、传递给团队。这并不健康。

So I do wanna find a way to fix the relationship with him because the times where, you know, we were having a good trusting relationship and he was taking what I was saying and using it and acting on it, we worked really, really well. Then something happened and now he's out to prove something to the world and he's trying to do it alone. Yeah. And so that brings upon a tremendous amount of stress and pressure, you know, that he's just passing along to me, to the team. It's not healthy.

这不可持续。如果我们无法克服这种负面能量，我担心这个团队在三到六个月后就不会存在了。

It's not sustainable. And if we can't overcome that negative energy, I fear that this team won't exist in three to six months.

您正在收听的是《哈佛商业评论》的《职场女性》。我是艾米·加洛，这是我们的《相处之道》系列，我会教您如何应对各种难搞的人。这些节目是这样进行的：一位听众嘉宾向我讲述那个让他们筋疲力尽的难相处者，我会根据行为科学推荐一些策略和话术，用来抵消对方的糟糕行为。

You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo, and this is our Getting Along series, where I teach you how to deal with different types of difficult people. Here's how these episodes go. A listener guest tells me about the difficult person who's wearing them down. And I recommend tactics and phrases that, according to behavioral science, should counteract that bad behavior.

目标是通过这些微小的行动，让听众能够建立更具功能性的关系，为了自己的理智和职业发展。今天的嘉宾是玛丽亚。这是她用的化名，以便能坦率谈论自己的处境。玛丽亚是一名项目经理，她为公司的财务和销售团队构建数据模型和可视化。

The goal is that through those small actions, the listener can build a more functional relationship for the sake of their sanity and their career. Today's guest is Maria. Though that's a pseudonym she's using so she can speak candidly about her situation. Maria's a project manager. She builds data models and visualizations for the finance and sales teams at her company.

她正在应对我称之为“折磨者”的人——一个本应在工作中给予支持的资深人士，却反而在向下施压。玛丽亚的折磨者曾经确实是她的导师和直属上司。

She's dealing with what I'd call a tormentor. Someone senior who should be a supportive figure at work, but instead is punching down. Maria's tormentor used to be an actual mentor and her boss.

我们可以就叫他迈克。

We can just call him Mike.

玛丽亚和迈克曾经合作得很好。她钦佩他的智慧、他洞察人心并化解冲突的能力，以及他给过她的宝贵反馈。他甚至在她短暂离开公司时，帮她从两份工作邀约中做出选择。后来他给了她一个机会：回到公司，在他现在负责的部门里主导一次软件变革。

Maria and Mike worked well together. She admires his intelligence, his ability to read people and deescalate conflicts, and the good feedback that he's given her. He'd even helped her choose between two job offers when she'd briefly taken a break from the company. Then he gave her an opportunity, come back and lead a software change within the department he was now head of.

他了解我的工作。他知道我能做到什么。所以他把我招进他的团队，希望我把那个项目成功完成。那段时间他完全放手，这对我来说非常合适。

He knew of my work. He knew what I was capable of. And so he brought me onto his team to get that project done successfully. And he was very hands off during that time, which worked out perfectly for me.

他让她自己决定怎么做，只在她请求时才介入。他没有事无巨细地管。然而，当公司重组，把迈克调到另一个部门当头儿时，这段关系开始发生变化。

He let her decide how to do the work, intervened only when she asked him to. He didn't micromanage. The relationship, though, started to change when the company did a reorg and put Mike as the head of a different department.

他实际上被降职了。所以这对他的心理以及他的自尊心都造成了打击。于是我跟着他一起调了过去，因为他是我的导师，我很看重能直接跟他共事。所以我就随他一起加入了那个新团队。

He was essentially demoted. So that impacted him, I think, mentally and also his ego. And so I moved over with him because he was my mentor, because I valued working with him directly. And so I came over to that new team with him.

后来有一天，Mike突然对她翻脸。事情是这样的：接替Mike位置的那个人，我们叫他John，邀请Maria单独见面。

Then one day, Mike turned on her. Here's what happened. The guy who'd replaced Mike, we'll call him John, invited Maria to meet one on one.

算是互相认识一下，也了解一下我当时在做的一些项目。

To kinda get to know me, get to know some of the projects that I was working on.

当她意识到两人聊得太久、自己跟Mike的一对一会议要迟到时，她给Mike发了短信说明情况。Mike回复：好的，没关系。显然，他其实很不高兴。因为当Maria赶到会议室时，他劈头盖脸地说

When she realized they'd been talking so long that she was going to be late for her one on one with Mike, she texted him and said so. Mike's reply, okay. That's fine. Clearly, it wasn't though. Because when Maria showed up to their meeting, he launched in with

你为什么要去开那个会？你有时间见John，却没时间做我让你做的那些事？然后他就开始了一段非常奇怪的指责，说无法再信任我，说我只顾讨好那个John，而忽略了我们团队该做的事。我当时完全懵了，因为我提前告诉过他John把会议加到了我日程里。

Why did you take that meeting? So you have time to meet with John, but you don't have time to do all these other things that I've asked you to do. And he went on a really weird tangent where he talked about not being able to trust me, and I am pleasing this other guy, John, and not worrying about what I need to do on this team. Yeah. And, you know, I was really caught off guard because I made him aware that John put this on my calendar.

我也明确说过我要去见他。我并不是在背后搞小动作，可他却那样反应。

I made him aware that I was going into a meeting with him. So it's not like I was doing things behind his back, but yet he was acting that way.

嗯。

Yeah.

那是我第一次真切地觉得，哇，这段关系、这个人，根本不是我以为的那样。

That was the first time I really felt like, wow. This is not the relationship. This is not the person I thought it was.

这一幕听起来是不是有点耳熟？你是否也在面对一个莫名其妙充满敌意、控制欲极强、又是组织里资深的人？我想我和Maria的谈话会对你有帮助。我们会聊到如何在不损害自身信誉的前提下专业地反击，以及如果可能的话，如何让关系重回正轨。Maria，感谢你跟我聊这位难搞的同事。

Does this sound oddly familiar? Are you dealing with someone who's weirdly hostile and excessively controlling and a senior person in your organization? And I think my conversation with Maria will help. We get into how to push back professionally without jeopardizing your own credibility, and how, if possible, to get the relationship back on track. Maria, thank you for chatting with me about your challenging coworker.

听起来在最初那段工作关系里，你挺喜欢和他一起共事。是的。嗯。后来他调到了这个部门，听起来像是被降职。嗯。

So it sounds like you enjoyed work with him for the first part of your working relationship. Yeah. Mhmm. He then moved over to this division in what sounded like a demotion. Mhmm.

你和他一起搬过去的。嗯。正是这次和约翰的会面，似乎真的引发了……嗯，你和他之间的紧张，也改变了什么。我是说，你觉得这改变了他对你的看法、对你的态度吗？

You moved over with him. Mhmm. It was this meeting with John that seemed to sort of really spark Mhmm. Tension between you and change. I mean, would you say change the way he thought of you, treated you?

你觉得那次会议到底真正改变了什么？

What would you say really shifted in that meeting?

我觉得他提高了期望。我以前做的那些事可能还过得去，但之后，他一下子把标准拉到百分之一千，期望更多，一切都更紧迫。

I think that he raised his expectations. Whatever I was doing before was maybe fine and okay. But afterwards, he came at a thousand percent, just more expectations, more urgency to everything.

然后

And

我能感觉到，他的老同事约翰以及其他同事也在给他很大压力，要他拿出成果，对吧？直到今天，他还在不断想证明我们团队的价值。

I could tell he was getting a lot of pressure from his old colleague, John, as well as other colleagues to deliver results. Right? And he was constantly trying to prove the value of this team still to this day.

嗯。嗯。

Mhmm. Mhmm.

所以到了某个点，我去找他，说：迈克，我真的需要你的帮助。我发现我不再喜欢这份工作了，我压力很大，快撑不住了。而他的回答是：欢迎加入俱乐部。

So at a certain point, I came to him and I said, Mike, I really need your help. I'm finding that I'm not really enjoying my job anymore. I am stressed. I'm overwhelmed. And his response to me was, welcome to the club.

哦，我很痛苦，你也该痛苦。对，没错？

Oh, I'm miserable. You should be miserable too. Yeah. Right? Exactly.

是的。是的。

Yep. Yep.

我觉得这句话太有启示了。那一刻我就明白：好吧，这绝对不是我以为的那种关系。如果有人来找我，说：嘿，我快撑不住了，我很焦虑，我需要这个那个，我会说：好，咱们一起理清楚到底什么才是真正优先的。

And I found that profoundly telling. At that point, I was just like, okay, this is definitely not the relationship I thought it was. If someone comes to me and is like, hey, I'm overwhelmed, I'm stressed, I need this, I need that. I'm going to say, okay. Let's figure out what is actually a priority.

你知道吗，我会帮他们挺过去。我会支持他们。我不会说，哦，你猜怎么着？我也是。

You know, I'm gonna help them through. I'm gonna support them. I'm not gonna go, oh, guess what? Me too. You know?

对。

Right.

嗯，我认为经理的工作就是照你说的那样去做。对吧？就说，好，我们来想办法。嗯。

Well and I would argue the job of a manager is to do exactly as you described. Right? Just say, okay. Let's figure it out. Mhmm.

并且要缓冲，嗯，就像保护你不受我自己的压力影响。嗯。对吧？而不是说，是啊。

And to buffer Mhmm. Like, to protect you from my own stress. Mhmm. Right? Not to say, yeah.

我们都很崩溃。无所谓。是啊。别矫情了。嗯。

We're all stressed out. Whatever. Yeah. Get over it. Mhmm.

嗯。所以他不光是个糟糕的经理，我觉得他根本没在做经理的关键工作之一。是啊。

Mhmm. So not only was he being a bad manager, I think he was just not doing one of the critical jobs Yeah. Of a manager.

是啊。而且，艾米，我大概在过去一年为他工作时才真正明白，经理和领导者是有区别的。是的。他是个经理，那方面他能做好，但他不是领导者。

Yeah. And I you know, Amy, I have really learned probably in the last year by working for him that there's a difference between a manager and a leader. Yes. And he's a manager. He can do that well, but he's not a leader.

这对整个团队来说真的很悲哀。

And that is really sad for this team.

嗯，我没听出领导素质。我也不确定我听到了好的管理。是啊。我知道你跟我们的制作人提过一件关于育儿假的事。能说说发生了什么吗？

Well, I'm not hearing leadership qualities. I'm not sure I'm hearing good management either. Yeah. And I know you had told our producer about an incident around parental leave. Can you explain what happened with that?

好啊。当然。我们去年一月拿到了寄养父母的执照。所以我们持证已经一年零一个月了。

Yeah. Yeah. Of course. So we got licensed as foster parents last January. So we've been licensed about a year and a month now.

恭喜。

Congratulations.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢

Thank

真的，这源于我自己的成长经历。我出身非常普通的中下层家庭，我们家总是得靠别人的善意过活。所以等我的孩子渐渐长大，我们就一咬牙迈出了这一步。我很早就告诉他，嘿，我们要开始这个流程了。

you. Really, it came about from my own upbringing. I grew up very lower middle class and we always, my family had to rely on the kindness of others. So as my own kids got older, we kind of just took the leap. And so I told him very early on, Hey, we're starting this process.

一旦我们拿到执照，可能很快就会有一个寄养安置。所以我在《家庭与医疗休假法》里找到了相关规定。

Once we get licensed, we'll probably get a foster placement relatively soon. So I found that in FMLA

《家庭与医疗休假法》。

Family medical leave act.

没错。寄养父母也适用。于是我联系他说，嘿，我准备利用这个假期。他回答，听起来不错，记得随时告诉我进展，等等。

Exactly. Foster parents are included in that. And so I reached out to him and I said, hey, I'm going to take advantage of it. And he was like, that sounds great. You know, just keep me informed, etcetera.

到了夏天，我们迎来了一个10天大的女宝宝。

So come the summer, we received placement of a 10 old baby girl.

真小。

That is young.

确实很小。于是我联系他说，嘿，我们能谈谈这个育儿假吗？我已经好几天没怎么合眼了。你知道的，我给他发了条消息。

That is little. And so I reached out to him and I said, hey, can we talk about this parental leave? I haven't really slept in a couple of days. You know? I sent him a message.

我也给他发了邮件。他当时正出差参加团队工作坊。他回复我说，嗯，我们以后再谈。所以我们原本安排了周一的一对一，然后他改期，接着又取消了。

I sent him an email as well. And he was traveling for a team workshop. He replied to me and he said, yeah, we'll talk about it later. So we had a one on one that was scheduled on Monday and then he moves our one on one. And then he canceled the one on one.

他说，嘿，我周四给你打电话。周四到了，我的一位同事、队友，也是我在公司最好的朋友之一，给我发消息说，在工作坊期间，迈克告诉团队他要跟我谈判，让我别休育儿假，或者只休几周之类的。所以我收到这消息时情绪已经很紧绷。于是我一整天都在等他的电话，结果没打来。

He was like, hey, I'll just give you a call on, like, Thursday. Thursday comes, and I received a message from my coworker, teammate, and one of my best friends here at work. And she says to me that during the workshop, Mike had told the team that he was going to try and negotiate with me so that I wouldn't take parental leave or I wouldn't take it for a couple of weeks or something. So I was already in a very like heightened mindset because I got this information. And so I'm waiting all day Thursday for his call and it doesn't happen.

于是我就直接提交了育儿假申请，休了两周。女宝宝总共在我们家待了三周，我很庆幸自己这么做了。我知道我回来时，他对我突然休假很不高兴。

So I just went ahead and put in my parental leave. I took two weeks. Baby girl was with us a total of of three weeks, and I'm glad that I did it. I know that when when I came back, he was not happy that I just took it so abruptly.

我猜你得跟HR走FMLA流程，对吧？不是直接不上班，而是按流程请假。对。

I assume you had to interact with HR about the FMLA. Right? Like, the it's not like you just didn't show up to work. Like, you were following a process. Yep.

对，完全正确。女宝宝那次我休了两周。

Okay. Exactly. Exactly. Yep. With the baby girl, I took two weeks.

对，大概两周后，我们又迎来一个12岁的小男孩。

Yep. And then roughly two weeks later, we got a 12 old little boy.

好，又一个小孩。

Okay. Another young one.

没错。我和伴侣轮流休育儿假，因为他知道这次会是长期安置。他先休了四周，我就用这四周帮团队做好我休假的准备。那四周里气氛很紧张，因为正好赶上绩效评估。

Exactly. And my partner and I actually kind of traded off Okay. Parental leaves for him because we knew it was gonna be a much longer term placement. So he took four weeks off and I used those four weeks to set the team up for my leave. And there was a lot of tension during those four weeks because that was also during the performance reviews.

明白。

Okay.

我一点有用的反馈都没拿到。有一次他说我不擅长项目管理，说我做得不对。我就用我觉得很中性的语气问：那能给我个例子吗？因为结合具体经历对我帮助会很大。

And I got no helpful feedback from that at all. And at one point he was saying that I am not good at project management, that the way that I do it is not correct. So I asked what I felt like was a very neutral toned question. And I said, well, can you give me an example? Because it would be really helpful for me to draw on an experience.

他几乎有些生气地说，你能想象如果我让老板给我举个例子，他会怎么说我吗？

And almost offended, he said, do you imagine what my boss would tell me if I asked him to give me an example?

我是说，我真希望大家能看到我的脸，因为我现在震惊极了。当然要问例子啊，我们鼓励大家问例子。对不起，是的。

I mean, I I wish people could see my face because I'm just, like, shocked right now. Of course, you asked for examples. That's like, we encourage people ask for examples. Sorry. Yes.

我太激动了。但没错，就是这样。这是个很正常的问题。我是觉得，玛丽亚，我们可以聊很久，把他干的事全列出来。嗯。

I'm getting too excited. But, yes, like Exactly. It's it's a very normal question. I mean, have a feeling we could talk, Maria, for a long time listing all the things he's done. Mhmm.

但我确实想说他简直是一个“折磨者”的完美——或者说倒霉——样本。就像你原本指望他当导师，或者像你过去那样确实当过你导师的人。嗯。

But I do I do wanna just he is such a sort of perfect example. I don't know. Unfortunate example of the tormentor. Like someone who you expect to be a mentor or in as in your case has been a mentor in the past. Mhmm.

可实际上他反着来。感觉他在拆你台而不是支持你，对吧？他会直接或间接指责你对工作不投入，给你设几乎够不着的标准。

But actually does the opposite. So it feels like they're undermining you as opposed to supporting you now. Right? Like they accuse you directly or indirectly of not being committed to work. They set near impossible standards.

给你派没意义或不合适的活儿。学术文献里叫“非法任务”，就是对工作根本无关紧要的事。对，他贬低你的成绩。

They assign you needless or inappropriate work. They call that in the academic literature, like, illegitimate tasks. Like, things that don't really matter to the work. Yeah. They put down your accomplishments.

不给你请假或灵活处理非工作事务的机会，还自豪地吹嘘自己当年多能牺牲。他简直是个典型“折磨者”。对，他们常把对你的这种虐待说成是在“锻炼品格”。

They deny time off or flexibility for for non work commitments. They proudly, like, talk about the sacrifices they made. I mean, he literally is the sort of quintessential tormentor. Yeah. And they often claim that this mistreatment of you is an exercise in character building.

对吧？他们常说这是为了“让你更坚强”，或者“带你熟悉门道”。可感觉常常像入会欺负。

Right? That they're trying to actually toughen you up is often a phrase we hear. Or like, show you the ropes. Yeah. But it it often can feel like hazing.

就像兄弟会欺负新人一样：我当年就是这么熬进来的，现在轮到你。有意思的是，我觉得他也属于那种“缺乏安全感的主管”原型，因为他以前不是这样。

Like, it can feel like fraternity hazing. Like, I this is what it took for me to get in here. Right. And now you have to do it. What's interesting about him is I also have mentioned, I think he fits into that insecure manager archetype or insecure boss archetype because he wasn't always like this.

听起来那次降职打击了他的自尊。对，就在那次你和乔恩开会之后，事情变了，他突然对自己的组织地位和你对他的忠诚极度不安。缺乏安全感的主管常这样：试探你的忠诚，囤积资源。

And it sounds like that demotion, his ego took a hit from that. Yeah. And that moment where things changed, where you took that meeting with Jon, there was something that just seems like he, all of a sudden, was deeply insecure about his position in the organization and your loyalty to him. And I think that sometimes we see that with the insecure manager too, is that we see them try to test your loyalty Mhmm. And try to hoard resources.

对吧？他那句“你怎么有空去见约翰？”的评论，意思是你本该为我做所有这些事的。

Right? That comment he said of, how do you have time to meet with John? Well, you're supposed to be doing all these things for me.

对。

Right.

当然，这又一次是典型的缺乏安全感老板的行为。我想回到现在，因为如果我理解得没错，你已经不再直接向迈克汇报了吧。

Of course, that's just, again, classic insecure boss behavior. I wanna get to present day because I if I understand correctly, you don't actually report directly to Mike anymore.

没错。

That's correct.

没错。那告诉我你现在的汇报关系是怎样的。

That's correct. So tell me tell me what your reporting relationship is now.

好的。现在我其实是间接向他汇报。有个人成了我的直属经理，而那个人再向他汇报。我已经不再和迈克进行任何一对一的交流了，只有在团队场合才会跟他互动。

Yes. So now I actually report indirectly to him. There's a person who's now my manager and that person reports to him. But I don't have any direct one on one interaction with Mike anymore. And I only have interaction with him in sort of a team setting.

嗯。说实话，这反而让情况更糟了，因为我和同事前几天聊天时她跟我说，她觉得“你不再像以前那样是玛丽亚了，而团队需要那样的你”。她这么说是因为我们当时在开会讨论如何围绕scrum（一种敏捷项目方法）来组织和架构，但我其实没怎么发表意见，因为一旦我开口，他就会想办法贬低

Okay. And it's actually kind of made things worse, to be honest with you, because I and my coworker the other day told me this. She said, I feel like you're not Maria anymore, and we need that on the team. And she said that because we were having a meeting about how we're gonna organize and how we're gonna structure around scrum, scrum being an agile project methodology. But I haven't really been giving my feedback because if I were to do that, he would find a way to undermine

我。

me.

所以，是的，我某种程度上退缩了，因为我不想在10位同事面前被贬低，也不想被当众训斥。既然结果会是这样，那我还不如不发表意见，对吧？

So, yeah, so I've kind of retreated in a sense because I don't wanna be undermined in front of 10 other colleagues. I don't wanna be berated in front of 10 other colleagues. Yeah. And if that's going to be the case, why even give my feedback? Right?

对。好的。你希望这个团队成功。嗯，听起来——如果我理解得没错——你也想像以前那样继续贡献自己的力量。

Right. Okay. So you want this team to to be successful. Mhmm. It also sounds and tell me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but it sounds like you also wanna be able to contribute in the way you always have been.

顺着同事那句“嗯”。继续做那个一直带来专业知识和经验的 Maria。嗯。有项有趣的研究，我们在《哈佛商业评论》上发表过，讲的是缺乏安全感的主管：当人们升到更高职位时，我们本以为他们会具备更强的领导力、知识——嗯——获取信息与数据的渠道，会更胜任，可他们自己却担心达不到这些标准。

To take your colleague's comment of like Mhmm. To be the Maria that you've always been who's bringing your knowledge and expertise. Mhmm. There is interesting research and we've published some of this in in HBR about insecure bosses and how when you move up in the organization, we expect that people in those more senior positions to have more leadership ability, knowledge Mhmm. Access to information and data, that they'll be more competent when they fear they are not up to those standards.

也许他们确实被现实打脸了，比如这次被降职。嗯。他们实际感受到的能力与自信，和高高在上的期望之间的差距，会让研究者所谓的“自我防御”出现：为了保护自尊而采取行动。所以 Mike 似乎陷入了“我不行，但又必须证明我行”的循环。对。

And maybe they've been shown they aren't by getting demotion in this case. Mhmm. The discrepancy between how confident and capable they actually feel and the high expectations results in what the researchers call ego defensiveness, where they they engage in actions to protect their self esteem. So it seems like Mike has sort of gotten in this spin of I'm not up to the task, but I have to prove I'm up to the task. Yes.

任何可能让我显得不行的人，都成了附带伤害，对吧？我只能清除他们、打压他们，让别人不再信任他们。

And anyone who's at all going to make me look bad in any way is just collateral damage. Right? I just have to sort of get rid of them, undermine them, make sure that others don't trust them.

没错，这百分之百就是他的性格。嗯。

Yeah. That's a 100% his personality. Yeah.

是啊，这很难应对。接下来我要说一件我真的不喜欢说的话——嗯——因为没人愿意把它当成策略。嗯。

Yeah. And it's hard to to deal with. Now, I'm about to say something I really don't like to say Mhmm. Because I don't think it's a tactic that anyone wants to do. Mhmm.

但研究确实证明它有效。嗯。有时要减少这种“自我防御”——也叫“自我敏感”——得先让对方对自己感觉更好，这就需要拍马屁。对。

But it has been shown in research to work. Mhmm. And that is that sometimes the way to reduce that ego defensiveness or sometimes it's called ego sensitivity, is to actually get them in a more positive frame of mind about themselves. And that calls for flattery. Yeah.

而且——唉，再说一次，我不喜欢说“那就进去把 Mike 夸成花，让他冷静”。但我确实怀疑，你之所以反复成为靶子，是因为你没走这条路，还一直为自己挺身而出。

And Yeah. Again, I do not like to say, oh, like, let's go in and tell Mike all these wonderful things about him so he can just calm down. But I do wonder if you have become a repeated target of this behavior because you haven't engaged in that, and you've stood up for yourself.

对，完全正确。

Right? Absolutely.

嗯，嗯。所以有一个策略——你可以直接说“绝不，我干不来”，完全没问题——就是试着实验：能不能在合适时机，给他一些真诚、不虚伪、发自内心的夸奖，说说他确实做得好的地方。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the tactics, and feel free to say no way, I will never do this, I don't want to do this, that's totally fine. But one of the ways one of the things I that you could try out, right, is just, again, to experiment with, is is there a way to place some well timed, honest, not disingenuous, but honest compliments about what he does well.

如果你能发现他哪件事干得不错，也许就能让他的自我稍稍平息。不知道。你怎么看？

If there's something you could find that he does well that just would sort of calm that ego a little. I don't know. How do you What's your response to that?

我我确实想这么做，Amy。我也不排斥奉承之类的手段。

I I would like to, Amy. And I'm not above flattery or anything like that.

嗯。

Yeah.

你知道，所以如果我们在开会时，我完全可以来一句：‘你刚才处理得太棒了。’

You know, so I'm I'm totally for, you know, if we're in a in a group meeting and just saying like, hey, the way you handle that was awesome.

只要你真心这么想。嗯。嗯。我觉得可以做个小实验，看看会发生什么，就试几个这样的瞬间。另外，我想让你尝试两件事。

If you genuinely believe that. Mhmm. Mhmm. And I think it'd be interesting to experiment to see what happens to just try a few of those moments out. The other thing, I wonder if you can try to two things.

第一，能不能在你真心需要建议时，去请教他，借此修复那种感觉？嗯。尽量简单，别问大建议。嗯。比如：‘我在A和B之间犹豫，这种情况你会怎么做？’

One, can you try to restore that sense by asking him for advice when you genuinely want it? Mhmm. And it keep it really simple, not big advice. Yeah. But is there like, I'm deciding between a and b, what would you do in this case?

嗯。嗯。人际关系里有一种互惠的概念，对吧？对。

Mhmm. Mhmm. So there's this idea that in relationships, there's this reciprocity. Right? Right.

有来有往。嗯。经典的Adam Grant关于给予与索取的研究，说的就是互惠法则。而你们之间已经完全失衡了。所以，如果你能开口：‘能给我点建议吗？’并且主动提出帮他，会怎么样？

Give and take. Mhmm. You know, it's sort of classic Adam Grant research on we give and take, and there's this law of reciprocity. And it's that's just gotten completely out of whack with you all. And so if there's a way to say, hey, can you give me this advice, and can you offer to help with him?

因为关于‘折磨者’，研究显示——学术上叫‘辱虐管理’——也就是我们一直在聊的。

Because that's the other thing about the tormentor, what the research shows, and the academic term is abusive supervision, which it's basically what we've been talking about.

嗯。

Yeah.

他不一定非得是你直属上司才会这样。但如果你让他看到你有他需要的资源，往往能扭转权力天平。对他得小心，他很看重忠诚。所以，我鼓励你尽可能强调：我们有共同目标，我们都希望这个团队存在。

And he doesn't have to be your supervisor, direct supervisor to engage in that, but is that if you can show them that you have something they need, often you can change that balance of power. And you have to be careful with him because he cares a lot about loyalty. Right? So what I would encourage you to do as much as possible is we have a shared goal. We care about the existence of this team.

我想让你看起来成功，对吧？我该怎么做？我能帮上什么忙？我，是的。

I want to make you look successful. Right? How can I do that? How can I help? And I Yeah.

我在想，跟他谈一次是否值得。再说一遍，我不是——只有你觉得自己安全的前提下。但是，跟他谈一次是否值得，你可以问：我很担心团队，我知道你也担心，我也知道你现在承受着巨大的压力。

I wonder if it's even worth a conversation with him. And and again, I'm not Only if you feel safe doing this. But is is it worth having a conversation with him where you can ask, I'm concerned about the team. I know you are too. And I know you are under a tremendous amount of pressure.

所以，我能怎么帮忙？尽量把问题敞开。不要“嗯，你需要我是因为这个”。而是再次表明，你拥有他需要的资源，你投入于他的成功。

So how can I help? And just leave it as open as possible. Not Mhmm. Oh, you need me because of this. But again, just trying to show that you have something he needs, that you're invested in his success.

你知道吗，Amy，我试过对Mike这么做，结果变成了一场互相指责。那是在任何人休育儿假之前。我说，我真的能看出你在为这支团队争取支持上很吃力，我想在那里帮你、支持你，我只需要知道该怎么做。

You know, Amy, with that, when I tried that with Mike, it became an exercise of blame. This was before any of the parental leaves. I said, I can really see that you're struggling to champion this team. And I wanna be there to help you and support you. I just need to know how to do that.

我能怎么帮你为这支团队争取支持？而他简单的回答是：嗯，我现在不需要你的帮助。

How can I help you champion this team? And his simple response was, well, I don't need your help right now.

让我先反思一下，因为自我防御模式常常让他们听不进反馈。嗯，我们称之为“员工发声”。对吧？他们对“员工发声”并不开放。

So let me just reflect for a moment because the ego defensive mode often makes them not able to hear feedback. Mhmm. And we call it employee voice. Right? They're not open to employee voice.

对，所以他其实是在说：我就是不想听你说话。嗯，他几乎就是在直接打断你。是的。

Right. And so what he said is, I just don't wanna hear from you. Mhmm. He was really just short of shutting you down. Yeah.

所以我认为，与其进行那种“我们投入其中，我们希望……”的大型对话，不如用微妙的方式使用“我们”这个词。嗯。用微妙的方式说：我喜欢你刚才的做法。就这样。你不需要深入展开。

And that's where I think rather than have the sort of a bigger conversation of we're invested in this, we want this to is that you'll just find subtle ways to use the words we. Mhmm. You find subtle ways to say, I love how you did that. That's it. You don't have to go into it.

比如，我就是——我喜欢你刚才的做法，那真的很有帮助。嗯，你能在这方面给我点建议吗？嗯。

Like, I just I love how you did that. That was super helpful. Yeah. Do you have some advice for me on this? Mhmm.

告诉我我能做些什么来帮忙。幸运的是，你不需要跟他一对一会面，所以你不会被设定为失败。但有没有一些小办法？我会静观其变。

Let me know what I can do to help. Luckily, you're not having one on ones with him. So you're not set up for failure. But are there small ways? And I would just watch what happens.

而且我不保证这会奏效。事实上，嗯。你可能会得到和他过去一样的反应。但我希望看到你稍微尝试一下，即使我清楚地听到你说这在过去没用。我在想现在情况不同了，他没有什么盟友。

And I'm not guaranteeing it will work. In fact Mhmm. You may get the same reaction that you've gotten from him in the past. But I'd I'd like to see you experiment a little with just trying, even though I'm hearing you loud and clear that this did not work in the past. I'm wondering now with the different dynamics with him him not having many allies.

如果你表现出哪怕一点点盟友的姿态，会不会改变局面？我还有另外两件事想确保鼓励你去做，它们和迈克没有直接关系。但一是继续投资你与团队其他人的关系。把玛丽亚带到这些关系里。即使你在迈克面前不舒服表现自己，有没有办法通过更直接的对话和邮件确保你在建立这些关系？

If you show yourself to be an ally, even in the tiniest way, will it shift things? There's two other things I wanna make sure I encourage you to do that don't relate directly to Mike. But one is to continue to invest in your relationships with the others on the team. Bring Maria to those relationships. Even if you don't feel comfortable putting yourself out there in front of Mike, are there ways in more direct conversations with people and emails that you can make sure you're building those relationships?

所以如果事情真的出岔子，你实际上有这些联系，无论是谁可能接替迈克，或者团队未来会是什么样子。然后另一件事我真的强烈鼓励，我觉得你已经在某种程度上做了，就是设定情感边界，比如，是的，这不是玛丽亚的问题。我想明确一点。这是迈克的问题。

So if things do go sideways, you actually have those connections for whoever might take Mike's place or for whatever the team might look like in the in the future. And then the other thing I would just really strongly encourage, and I think you're already doing this to some degree, is just to set emotional boundaries, like Yeah. This is not a Maria problem. I just wanna be clear. This is a Mike problem.

而且我认为证据很清楚。嗯。我希望你感觉无论发生什么，无论这些小小的策略是否奏效，我都希望你感觉你已经尽力了，晚上能睡得安稳。是的。我假设你现在身边没有12岁孩子。

And I think the evidence is clear on that. Mhmm. And I want you to feel like no matter what happens, whether these small tactics of shifting things with him work or don't, I want you to feel like you've done your best and that you can sleep at night. Yeah. I'm assuming you don't have a 12 old with you at the current moment.

现在应该有七个月了。这就对了。好的。所以你可能希望睡得稍微好一点。但我不希望这件事让你失眠。

There'll be seven months at this point. There you go. Okay. So so you're maybe hopefully sleeping a little bit better. But I don't want this to be the thing that keeps you up.

我希望你感觉你是按照自己的价值观行事的。这真的很重要。听起来你在工作中有朋友。听起来你有积极的关系。虽然迈克可能占据你大量的心理空间，他只是你众多关系中的一个。

I want you to feel like you've acted according to your values. That's really important. And it sounds like you have friends at work. It sounds like you have positive relationships. And while Mike may take up a huge amount of mental space for you, he's one of many relationships that you have.

所以我想看到你在其他关系上投资，并提醒自己。嗯。你不是在告诉我我从来没有，比如，我从来没有和老板有过好关系。你不是在说，是的。我有时确实听到这样的话。

So I'd like to see you invest in those other relationships and remind yourself. Mhmm. You're not telling me I've never had, you know, like, I've never had a good relationship with a boss. You're not telling Yeah. Which I do hear sometimes.

对吧？或者你不是在告诉我，比如，我似乎就是和任何同事都处不好。同事。就像，嗯。嗯。

Right? Or you're not telling me, like, I just can't seem to get along with any of my coworkers. Coworkers. Like Like Mhmm. Mhmm.

嗯。你听起来像是一个受重视的队友。我不希望你对这次互动太往心里去。这是你会做的事吗，就是看看

Mhmm. You sound like you're a valued teammate. And I don't want you to take this interaction to heart. Is is that something you you you do is sort of see

哦，百分之百。

Oh, a 100%.

是啊，你

Yeah. You

知道，我有焦虑和强迫症。所以这段关系在我脑子里反复播放了好几个月。我也知道在某些情境下，我会丢掉一点情商，想到什么就脱口而出。

know, I struggle with anxiety and OCD. And so this relationship has been on replay for months and months. I also know in certain scenarios, I lose a little bit of that emotional intelligence and just simply say the first thing that like comes to my mind.

知道吗？你和大家一样。你和大家一样。

Know? You and everyone else. You and everyone else.

是啊，就像你到了某个临界点，负面反馈太多就承受不住了。我记得他有一次说我得学会“向上管理”。我之前没听过这个词，后来查了很多资料。

Yeah. And it's like you you reach a certain point where you can only take so much negative feedback. And so I remember him saying at one point that I need to learn to manage up. And I had not heard that word before. And I did a lot of Googling after.

但他说，你得学会向上管理，修复这段关系是你的责任。

But, you know, he said, you need to learn to manage up. It's your responsibility to fix this relationship.

然后

And

我说，迈克，我不确定这段关系还能不能修复。他就说，那我们就得另开一场对话了。话题就此结束。

I said, well, Mike, I'm not sure this relationship is fixable. And he simply said, well, that's a different conversation that we're going to have to have then. And that was the end of it.

嗯嗯，其实我们正在做一期关于“向上管理”的节目，等播出后一定发给你。你说的那个难题——到底该谁来修复，对吧？

Yeah. Yeah. And we actually We're actually working on an episode about managing up that we will definitely share with you when it comes up. And that struggle you're talking about, whose job is it to fix this? Right?

谁负责确保玛丽亚工作量别太大？谁负责确保她能休到应得的家庭假？嗯。我对如今的经理们也有同理心，他们得为员工做太多事。嗯。

Whose job is it to make sure Maria doesn't have too much work? Whose job is it to make sure Maria can take the family leave that she's entitled to? Mhmm. I have empathy for managers these days around how much they have to do for employees. Mhmm.

所以我理解迈克那种反应：不，这是你的事，你得搞定。但这不对。嗯。正确的做法是——得好好谈一次。

So I understand Mike's reaction of like, no, this is you. You have to do this. But it's not right. Mhmm. What it is is it's a conversation.

这是合作。嗯。这就是我在做的事。这是我希望你能做的。我确实想表达同理心，比如家庭休假的情况，作为经理，有人在没有计划的情况下休两周、三周、六周的假，确实很有压力。

It's a collaboration. Mhmm. It's a here's what I'm doing. Here's what I hope you can do. I do wanna empathize, like, for example, the family leave situation, it's stressful as a manager to have someone take a two week, three week, six week leave without planning.

我完全理解这一点。

I totally have empathy for that.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

但他的反应并不合适。确实如此。即使他处于那种压力之下。

But his reaction is not appropriate. Absolutely. Even though he's under that stress.

不过，我对此有个简短的问题。

I do have a quick question on that though.

可以。其实我能不能——好吧，我们先回来。因为我想先谈谈你失去发言权的事。不过你先说。

Yeah. Can I actually because well, okay? We'll come back actually. Because I wanna talk about I wanna talk about you losing your voice for a moment. But go ahead.

好，这就是问题。

Yeah. That's the question.

所以当我休完六周的育儿假回来时，他连续一周都在斥责我，说‘我还不知道怎么做，但我们会想办法让你重新融入团队’，或者‘你六周的休假对团队造成了巨大干扰，但我们找到了办法’。大约一周后，他告诉我，他觉得团队不需要项目经理，我的角色将会改变等等。我觉得这非常令人不安，于是给HR发了条消息，说‘我刚休假回来’。

So when I came back from my six week parental leave, you know, was a week straight of him berating me and saying, I don't know how yet, but we'll find a way to reintegrate you into the team. Or your six week leave was a huge disruption on the team, but we figured out a way. Yeah. So after about a week of that, he said to me that he didn't feel that the team needed a project manager and that my role was going to be changing, etcetera. I found this really disturbing and I actually sent a note to HR and said to HR, I just got back from leave.

我的经理说他不需要团队里有项目经理。然而，团队目前有一个职位空缺，职位描述与我的工作内容完全吻合。我担心这可能是报复，希望此事能被处理并记录在案。’她去找他谈了。这就是我当时实际上自我降职的地方，因为我以前直接向他汇报。

My manager has said that he does not need a project manager on the team. However, there is a current role open on the team and the job description matches perfectly to what I do. I fear this may be retaliation and would like to have it addressed and documented. And she went and talked to him. And this was where I essentially demoted myself because I used to report directly to him.

我对HR说，这个职位对我来说不可持续，无论是对我的心理还是情绪健康。我希望换一个人汇报。现在回头看，我觉得这正好引出了那种我的声音被压制的感觉。而部分是我自己做出来的，因为我主动要求了这种‘降职’。

And I said to HR, this is not a sustainable position for me, both for my mental and emotional well-being. I would like to report to someone different. And when I look back at it now, this is I actually I think this is a segue into that feeling that my voice has been muted. And I partially did that to myself by requesting this sort of demotion.

好吧。但是

Okay. But

我不知道还有什么别的办法能摆脱那种负面情绪。

I did not know of any other way to escape that negativity.

是啊。我的意思是，你在设立界限。嗯嗯。可以理解，当你想提出点什么时，你就会想，他会说什么？他会怎么贬低它？

Yeah. I mean, you are setting a boundary. Mhmm. Understandably, when it feels like you you wanna offer something, you're just like, what is he gonna say? How is he gonna undermine it?

嗯嗯。我理解你选择沉默。但我想，与其关注他会怎么反应，实际上——嗯嗯——甚至接受他会负面反应。我知道那是必然的。

Mhmm. I understand being quiet. But I wonder if instead of focusing on how he's going to react, and actually Mhmm. Even accepting he's going to react negatively. I know that's the case.

嗯嗯。但我需要为我自己和我的团队做的是，把Maria的见解提出来，因为那是我的价值所在。那是我想带给团队的东西。嗯。然后明知他会负面反应，那是他自己的事。

Mhmm. But what I need to do for myself and the rest of my team is to offer Maria's insights because that's my value. That's what I want to offer to the Hey team. Yeah. And then knowing he's going to react negatively, that's on him.

我不觉得有人会坐在那里想，哦，Maria真无能。你看到Mike的反应了吗？我觉得他们会想，哦天，Mike又这样反应。真糟糕。

I don't think anyone's sitting there going, oh, Maria's incompetent. Do you see how Mike reacts? I think they're like, oh god. Mike is reacting this way. That's terrible.

而且我能理解，如果你说，我就是受不了，我应付不了随之而来的负面情绪。但听起来不管怎样你都会面对负面情绪。没错。要么你沉默，然后听到说你没做对；

And I I could understand if you're like, I just can't. I can't handle the negativity comes back. But it sounds like you're gonna get the negativity no matter what. Exactly. You're either gonna be quiet and hear you're not doing the right thing.

对。

Right.

要么你发声，还是听到说你没做对。嗯嗯。其实我怀疑，如果你重新找回自己的声音，会不会改变这种动态。你可能会发现，你继续发言，却没人买账，这根本不可持续。但不给团队做贡献对你也没好处。

Or you're gonna speak up and you're still gonna hear you're not doing the right thing. Mhmm. And I actually wonder if you finding your voice again will actually change the dynamic. And what you may find is that you continue to speak up, and it's not received well, and that this just isn't a sustainable situation. But not contributing to the team is not good for you either.

嗯。所以我宁愿你做出贡献，承担一些后果，看看事情是否真的会有所转变。你能试试吗？

Yeah. And so I'd rather you contribute and deal with some of the consequences and see if it actually shifts things. Is that something you could try out?

是的，绝对如此。让我感到害怕的是听到其他同事说，‘我真不敢相信他对你说了那种话’，或者‘那太不尊重人了’。但在会议或群体场合里，却没人真正站出来，因为在某些企业环境中，有一条不成文的规矩：我们不能在公开场合为自己发声。我们不

Yeah, absolutely. I think the thing that makes me fearful is hearing from other colleagues, Oh, I can't believe he said that to you, or That was so disrespectful. But in the meeting or in that group setting, no one really says anything because in certain corporate scenarios, there's this unspoken rule of we don't stand up for ourselves in a public environment. We don't

嗯。

Yeah.

你明白吗？

You you know?

嗯，我明白。是的。我觉得这很令人沮丧，我想你也有同感——竟然没有人愿意站出来。我觉得你可以开始做的一件事是，当有人跑来跟你说‘那真的太离谱了’

Yeah. I do know. Yeah. And I find that really discouraging as I imagine you do that there's not anyone who would stand up. I think one of the things you can start doing is when someone comes to you and says, that was so messed up.

‘我真不敢相信他对你说了那种话’，我会说，‘谢谢你注意到了。你觉得我下次该怎么做？’嗯。这样并不是要求他们做什么，而是请他们给出建设性的意见。

I can't believe he said that to you. I would say, thanks for noticing. What do you think I should do next time? Mhmm. So not asking them to do anything, but asking them to be constructive.

是的。他们可能会说，‘哦，没什么，你什么都不用说’，或者……我不知道他们会说什么。但我觉得这开始改变氛围和文化，让我们思考：我们要为自己发声吗？

Yeah. And they might say, oh, have nothing. You shouldn't say anything. Or they might I don't know what they're gonna say. But I think it starts to change the tone and the culture around, do we speak up for ourselves?

是的。这是一个长期的过程，去改变这种文化，你说得对，很多组织都存在这种情况。嗯。但我觉得只是问这个问题，就能稍微改变一点，让你们进入一种建设性的状态：‘我们能做什么’，而不是‘我们是这种行为的受害者，什么都不能说’。是的。

Yeah. And this is a longer term process to shift that culture, and you're right, exists in so many organizations. Mhmm. But I think just asking that question might change it a little bit so that now you all are in this constructive, what can we do, rather than we're victims of this behavior and we can't say anything. Yeah.

对吧？不再是‘低头做人’的态度，而是问，‘如果你是我，你会怎么做？’是的，因为这开始改变你们谈论这件事的方式。

Right? Just keep your head down kind of attitude. But saying, would you have done if you were me? Yeah. Because it just starts to change the the way you talk about it.

嗯。在不得不结束之前，我只想——结束前我想听听：你带走了什么？你想尝试什么？哪些内容对你有帮助？

Yeah. Before we unfortunately need to wrap up, I just wanna before we wrap up, I'd love to hear what are you taking away? What do you wanna try? What's been helpful?

我想说有很多东西都非常有益。我上播客不是为了寻求安慰，但知道一个中立、无偏见的人也觉得这确实是个艰难处境，确实令人安心。不过得到那些实用的反馈，比如‘嘿，为什么不试试这些赞美的小动作？’或者‘为什么不试着建立周围的关系，因为这样会让你感到有支持’，这些都很有帮助。

There's a lot of things that I will say are extremely helpful. And I didn't come on the podcast to feel reassured. But it is reassuring to know that an impartial, unbiased person does feel that this is a very difficult situation that is reassuring. But having that helpful feedback of, Hey, why don't you try these acts of flattery? Or why don't you try and build up relationships around you because that makes you feel supported.

这让我感觉不那么孤单了，而这正是我一直以来的感受。所以我很感激你所说的一切。我听了你的播客，也听你以前说过这些话。但当这些话真的是在对我说的时候，感觉就不一样了。是的。

That makes you feel a little less alone, which is what it has felt like. So I do appreciate everything that you've said. And I listened to your podcast and I've heard you say, do these things before. But it's it's different when you're actually, like, saying them to me. Yeah.

甚至在这些关系上投入，出现，打开麦克风，迈克可能会看到其他人尊重你，这也可能改变这种动态。

And even investing in those relationships, showing up, unmuting yourself, Mike might see that others respect you, and that might change the dynamic as well.

没错。是的。我也很感激对折磨者心态的洞察，对吧？了解是什么在驱动那些情绪，确实能帮助我对他和整个情况产生共情。

Exactly. Yeah. And I I do appreciate also the insight into into the mindset, right, of the tormentor. Having that insight into maybe what's driving those emotions in general does help me empathize with him and the situation.

同时，我也总是鼓励那些和老板处境微妙的人多留个心眼，因为正如你所说，他在你的工作上拥有很大权力——你什么时候休假、你担任什么角色等等。相反，我只是也鼓励你拓展人脉。嗯。嗯。项目经理现在非常抢手。

At the same time, I also always encourage someone who's in a tricky situation with their boss because as you said, he has a lot of power over your job when you take leave, what kind of role you have, all of that. Instead, I just also encourage you to build up your network. Mhmm. Mhmm. Project managers are hugely valuable right now.

我的意思是，这确实是一个需求极高的领域，我从不轻易给出“离开”的建议，除非真的毒性很强。但我认为只是看看外面还有什么机会。不是——嗯——你甚至不必真的去申请。只是确保你的简历是最新的，确保你在进行一些对话，也许参加一些社交活动，诸如此类。

I mean, it's just such an in demand field, and I'm not I never like to give the advice of like, get out unless it's really really toxic. But I think just seeing what else is out there. Not Mhmm. You don't even have to apply. Just making sure your resume is up to date, making sure you're having conversations, maybe going to some networking events, whatever.

这样，如果事情真的急转直下，你就有另一条路可走。是的。玛丽亚，非常感谢你分享你的经历和故事，我真心祝你好运。我真的希望事情至少能在一些小的方面有所转变，让你感觉更积极一些。

So that if things do turn really sideways, you haven't have an alternative. Yeah. Maria, thank you so much for sharing your experience and story, and I really wish you luck. I'm I'm really hopeful that some things will shift at least in small ways that feel more positive for you.

是的。非常感谢你，艾米。

Yeah. Thank you so much, Amy.

如果你想了解更多关于如何应对折磨者的内容，我的书《和睦相处》里有一整章专门讲这种行为恶劣的同事。书里还有关于缺乏安全感老板、悲观主义者、政治操作者和万事通的章节。每一章我都会解释某人为什么会那样表现，然后给出应对建议，让他们的行为不会把你拖垮。《职场女性》的编辑与制作团队包括阿曼达·克西、莫琳·霍克、蒂娜·托比·麦克、汉娜·贝茨、罗布·埃克哈特和伊恩·福克斯。

If you wanna learn more about how to deal with a tormentor, there's a chapter in my book, Getting Along, all about this particular type of badly behaving colleague. There are also chapters about insecure bosses, pessimists, political operators, and know it alls. In each one, I explain why someone might act like that. And then I give advice for counteracting their behavior so that it doesn't wear you down. Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoke, Tina Toby Mack, Hannah Bates, Rob Eckhart, and Ian Fox.

我是艾米·加洛。感谢收听。

I'm Amy Gallo. Thanks for listening.