如何管理：冲突

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好吧，凯尔西。你在管理人员时遇到的最难忘的冲突之一是什么？

Alright, Kelsey. What was one of the most memorable conflicts you had when you were managing people?

我能想到很多。最让我印象深刻的是，当我刚开始带团队时，有一个直接下属在各方面表现都不佳。他们并没有完成我交给他们的任务。即使完成了，也不是我想要的方式。你知道的，我的第一反应是，也许我就不该再给他们任务了。

There are so many that I can think of. I think the the one that comes to mind most vividly, when I first started managing people, I had a direct report who was underperforming in different ways. They weren't really completing tasks that I was giving them. The tasks that they did complete weren't completed the way that I wanted to. And, you know, my first instinct was like, oh, maybe I just should not give them more tasks.

我自己全包了。我知道怎么做，会做得很好。而我挑战了这种想法。所以我对自己的这部分故事感到自豪。

I'll just do it all myself. I know how to do it. It's gonna be great. And I challenged that. So I'm proud of myself for that that part of the story.

我挑战了这种想法，说，你知道吗？不。这对这个人是一次学习经历，对我也是。我要和他们谈谈，我要直面他们的表现不佳。

I challenge that and said, you know what? No. This is a learning experience for this person. It's a learning experience for me. I'm gonna have a talk with them, and I'm gonna confront them about their underperformance.

而且

And

我是

I'm a

一个对这种事很焦虑的人。我不太擅长处理冲突。所以我把我准备说的每一句话都写了下来。我练习了。我，像，一个人坐在房间里，真的大声说了出来，这确实挺奇怪的。

pretty anxious person about this stuff. I I'm not great with conflict. And so I wrote down everything I was gonna say to them. I practiced it. I, like, sat in a room by myself, actually said it out loud, which can be really weird.

当真正要给他们反馈的时候，我们有一次一对一。我坐在那里，然后想，不行，我们不谈这个。我只是慌了，说我们就愉快地聊聊，然后各自回到座位做自己的事。当时感觉很好。

And when the time came to actually give that feedback to them, we had a one on one. I sat down in that one on one, and I was like, nope. We're not doing this. I just panicked and was like, we're just gonna have a nice pleasant one on one, and then we're gonna go our separate ways and go sit back at our desks and do what we need to do. And at the time, it felt great.

我当时想，太好了，我不用去直面这个人，也不用给负面反馈。显然，随着时间推移，我想，好吧，我最终还是得谈这个。我不知道。这件事一直留在我脑海里，因为对我来说，这真是一个转折点，让我思考为什么我退缩了。

I was like, oh, I love that I didn't have to just confront this person and give that negative feedback. And obviously, over time, I was like, okay. I'm gonna have to have this conversation eventually. And I don't know. It just sticks out in my head because it was really a turning point for me in terms of why did I shy away from that Mhmm.

当我意识到这对我有好处，也对他有好处时。

When I knew it was good for me and I knew it was good for that person.

嗯。

Yeah.

是的，我有很多话想说。

And yeah. I have a lot of things to say.

说吧，Amy G。

Go for it, Amy G.

首先，我想有人会问，这算冲突吗？对吧？我会把它定义为冲突，因为我认为只要两个人的需求、愿望或目标不一致，就是冲突。所以这可能是一场未被说出口的冲突。

One is, I think some people would say, was that even a conflict? Right? I would define it as a conflict because I think of a conflict as any time you and another person's needs, wants, desires are not aligned. Right. So it may be an unspoken conflict.

也可能是一场全面争吵。更可能的是，它是一连串紧张的对话，你知道，言语交锋。所以我会把它定义为冲突。嗯。但接着另一个问题是，这是哪种类型的冲突？

It may be an all out fight. More likely, it's probably an exchange of tense conversations, you know, words. So I would define that as a conflict. Mhmm. But then I think the other question is like, what kind of conflict?

我发现给冲突分类很有帮助，因为这能帮你找到实际解决的方法。听起来你遇到的是我叫作“流程冲突”的类型。也就是说，到底该怎么把事情做成？也许你们在目标上是一致的，比如在某个日期前完成这三个项目。

I find it helpful to categorize conflicts because that helps you figure out how to actually address them. And it sounds like what you're having is what I'd call a process conflict. So like, how do you actually get something done? So maybe you agree on the goal. Your goal is to finish these three projects by x date.

但问题是，你打算怎么做？是同时推进，还是按顺序来？对吧？所以这可能是你和你的直接下属之间的分歧。而一旦你弄清楚你们在争什么，就得决定该怎么办。

But the question is, how are you going to do that? Are you gonna do that by taking them all on at the same time, by sequencing them? Right? So that might have been the disagreement between you and your direct report. And then once you sort of know what you're disagreeing about, you have to decide what to do about it.

我还认为有四种截然不同的处理方式。一是无视它，这就是你当时的选择，我们可以讨论这是否正确。二是直接面对，坐下来把话说开。

And I also think there are four sort of distinct approaches to handling. One is to ignore it, which is what you chose to do. We can discuss that that was the right choice. Two, to address it directly. That's where you sit down, hash it out.

三是间接处理，可以用故事、隐喻，或通过中间人来帮你解决。第四种是最后手段，就是彻底退出这段关系。在这个例子里，就是把人开掉。

You know, three, you address it indirectly. You might use stories, metaphors. You might go through an intermediary to help you resolve it. And then the fourth, which is the last resort option, is to just bail altogether on the relationship. So that would have been, in this case, you firing the person.

你要辞职吗？这听起来不像是一个合理的反应。我很高兴你没有这么做。通常，这不是一个合理的反应。对吧。

Are you quitting your job? Which didn't sound like a reasonable response. I'm glad you didn't use it. Most often, it's not a reasonable response. Right.

好的，艾米。这正是我们非常感谢你参与这次对话的原因。你知道我对冲突的看法。

Alright, Amy. That is exactly why we're so grateful you're here for this conversation. You know how I feel about conflict.

是啊。不是你的最爱。没错。但你不会回避它。

Yeah. Not your favorite. Nope. Okay. But you don't avoid it.

不会。我无法回避它。

No. I cannot avoid it.

是啊。这是你作为经理的职责。

Yeah. That's your job as a manager.

没错。

That's right.

我读到过，经理们实际上花了大约40%的时间来解决误解和人际关系问题。

I actually read that managers spend, like, 40% of their time resolving misunderstandings and interpersonal problems.

是啊。有时候感觉像是140%。你正在收听的是《哈佛商业评论》的《职场女性》。我是艾米·伯恩斯坦。

Yeah. Sometimes it feels like a 140. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein.

我是艾米·加洛。我是凯尔西·阿尔佩奥。

I'm Amy Gallo. And I'm Kelsey Alpeo.

艾米·G，我也非常感谢你在这里指导我们，作为新经理如何准备、管理和解决冲突。结合我的问题以及观众提出的问题，我们有很多内容要讨论。

Amy G, I'm also so grateful you're here to guide us through how to prepare for, manage, and resolve conflict as a new manager. Between my questions and the questions our audience has sent in, we have a lot to cover.

在我们进入具体问题之前，Amy g，让我们先打好基础，比如为冲突做好准备。之前你谈到过程冲突是什么，然后你说还有其他类型。嗯。它们是什么？

Before we get to the specific questions, Amy g, let's let's cover the fundamentals, like preparing for conflict before it happens. Earlier, you were talking about what process conflict is, and then you said there were other types. Mhmm. What are they?

是的。我的意思是，我觉得稍微了解一下它们会有帮助。比如，任务冲突，就是关于目标的分歧，我们到底想达成什么。地位冲突，则是关于谁来做决定、谁负责、谁有权威的分歧。然后就是关系冲突。

Yeah. I mean, I think it's helpful to know, like, just a little bit about them. So, like, task conflict, which is a disagreement over the goal, what we're trying to achieve. There are status conflicts, which are a disagreement over who gets to make the call, who's in charge, who has authority. And then there are relationship conflicts.

那些冲突是人身攻击。需要知道的重点是，这四种类型并不是互斥的。所以，并不是说我有一个干净利落的任务冲突，就能把它解决掉。更多时候，它们是四种混在一起的烂摊子。

And those are where it's personal. The important thing to know about the four types is that they're not mutually exclusive. So it's not like, I have a nice tidy task conflict. I can just clean that up. It's more often a hot mess of all four.

对。你可能在流程上有分歧，然后发现其实是对目标有分歧。接着又对谁来决定目标有分歧。然后，你们开始互发带刺的邮件，这就变成人身攻击了。所以，是的。

Yeah. And you might disagree about the process and realize you actually disagree about the objective. And then you disagree about who gets to make the call about the objective. And then, you know, you start exchanging snarky emails, and it becomes personal. So, yeah.

这真是美好的一天。

And that's a great day.

这才两封邮件而已。

That's just two emails.

你把它们一条条列出来时，我只想离开房间，因为我太回避冲突了。我想知道，像我这样的冲突回避者需要了解什么，关于我们天生就逃避分歧的倾向？我太在乎团队和谐、被喜欢，以至于我想维持现状，尽管我知道那行不通。

As you lay these all out, like, I I just wanna leave the room because I'm so conflict avoidant. And I'm wondering what do conflict avoiders like me need to know about our natural tendency to shy away from disagreements? Like, I cared so much about harmony and being liked by my team that I just I wanted to keep the status quo even though I knew it wasn't working.

是的。我很喜欢想象你，Kelsey，像蹦蹦跳跳回到工位，说“这次一对一真顺利”，尽管你什么都没做成。这就是典型的回避者行为：哦，太好了，一切都没事。我想说明一点。

Yeah. I love the image of you, Kelsey, like skipping back to your desk, that one on one went well when you did nothing you set out to do. Right. It's like classic avoider behavior of just being like, oh, I'm so glad it's not that everything's okay. I wanna be clear.

在我的书《Atria冲突应对指南》里，我把人分成两类，冲突寻求者和冲突回避者。但这其实更像一个光谱，而且要看情况。比如，你可能自认喜欢回避冲突，但必要时也会采取寻求者风格。所以你其实能做到。而且我实际上认为你是那种不怕说出真实想法的人，哪怕会惹点麻烦。

In my book, Atria Guide to Dealing with Conflict, I divide people into two categories, conflict seekers and conflict avoiders. But it's really more of a spectrum, and it will depend. Like, maybe you might identify as someone who likes to avoid conflict, but you lean into the seeker style when you need to. So you can do it. And I actually think of you as someone who's not afraid to say exactly what she means, even if it ruffles a few feathers.

这更像寻求者风格。对。但回避者，我觉得要知道的一点是，你在珍视一些非常重要的东西。你在珍视关系和和谐，就像你说的。你可能没那么看重直接和诚实，这也没关系。

And that's more of a a seeker style. Yeah. But avoiders, I think one of the things to know is that you're valuing something that's really important. You're valuing relationships and harmony, like you said. You're not valuing directness and honesty maybe as much, and that's okay.

这其实就是你做出的一个选择。但你得小心，不要默认走那条路。你第一时间想做的事往往是因为它最舒服、最简单或感觉最对。实际上，你得把眼光放远一点。一个月、下周、半年后，我现在处理这件事的方式，能不能带来我想要的结果？

Like, it's just a choice you're making. But you have to watch out that you don't default to that. There's gonna be the immediate thing you want to do because it feels most comfortable or it feels easy or it feels right. And really, you have to think a little bit further ahead. In one month, next week, six months, is the choice I'm making about how to deal with this going to get me the results I want to see?

因为你灰溜溜地回到工位，对你和那位总监都没好处，对吧。所以，真正要想的是：为了达成我真正想要的长期目标，我得承受哪些短期不适？当然，前提是你得先清楚自己的目标是什么。

Because you skipping back to your desk did not help you or that director report. Right. And so really, if you think about, okay, what's the short term discomfort I have to experience in order to achieve the long term goal that I really want, which, of course, requires you to be clear about what the goal is.

对。我觉得在当上经理之前，当个回避冲突的人可太容易了，根本不想主动找冲突。结果一下子被扔进冲突堆里，突然得主动去迎冲突，我当时就想：不，谢谢。

Right. And I think before I became a manager, it was so much easier to just lean into being a conflict avoider as opposed to a seeker. And then it was like I was thrown into this pit of conflict. And now all of a sudden, it was like, I had to seek it. And I was like, no.

谢谢。

Thank you.

没错。我听过很多更资深的同事说，我的天性就是回避，因为我看重关系和和谐。但我必须学会主动面对冲突，必须学会直接和诚实。

Right. Well, and I think a lot of people who are more senior in their career, what I hear them say is, well, my natural style is to avoid if I do value relationships and harmony. But I've had to learn to be a seeker. I've had to learn to be direct and honest.

好的。我想说，你可以既主动面对冲突——我听出来就是不退避——同时非常在意关系。不过Amy G，那些主动找冲突的人，得警惕自己哪些倾向？

Okay. So I just wanna say that you can be a seeker, which I hear as a non avoider, and care a lot about relationships. But I wonder, Amy G, what tendencies do conflict seekers need to be aware of in themselves?

嗯，我觉得主动找冲突的人，一旦屋里气氛紧张就会凑上去。他们可能把胳膊肘支在桌上，有点兴奋，爱搅局，有啥说啥。

Yeah. I mean, I think of the conflict seekers as the people who, like, lean in when the tension gets high in a room. Like, they might put their elbows on the table, sort of get a little excited. They stir the pot. They're willing to just say it like it is.

嗯。他们得小心，别变成 bulldozing（碾压式推进），尤其对回避型的人来说。如果对方真心害怕冲突，觉得冲突会破坏良好关系——这观念我们也得挑战——可如果对方已经怕得不行，你还去搅局，人家只会被压垮。

Mhmm. One of the things you have to watch out for is it can feel like bulldozing Mhmm. Especially to avoiders. And if you have an avoider who's really genuinely afraid of conflict because they think it's antithetical to having positive relationships, which is an assumption we should challenge. But if you have someone who's deeply afraid and you start stirring the pot, they're just gonna roll over.

对吧？他们要么后退，要么进入防御状态，那样对话就没法有成效。所以主动者得注意别主导全场，别为了好玩而制造冲突，有时候让对话或冲突就此打住反而是对的。

Right? They're just gonna back up or you might get them on the defensive. And then you're not gonna have a productive conversation. So I think seekers really have to watch that they're not dominating the conversation, that they're not just doing it for sport, and that sometimes letting the conversation or the conflict go is the right thing to do.

所以还是有选择的，对吧？

So there are options. Right?

是的。

Yes.

听起来不同的情境、不同的场合会为你提供不同的选择，对吧？

And and it sounds as if different context, different situations present different options for you. Right?

没错。你要确保自己不会用对冲突的默认反应来决定你的选择，对吧？比如凯尔西对冲突极度不适，她就直接放弃了那场艰难的对话。所以你必须挑战自己：好，我知道我的默认反应是什么，我知道我倾向于回避。

Yes. And what you wanna make sure you don't do is let your default response to conflict determine what option you've right? Like Kelsey's deep discomfort with conflict allowed her to just completely let go of that difficult conversation. So And you have to challenge, okay, I know what my default is. I know I tend to avoid.

我知道我倾向于寻求，不管是什么。然后问自己：好，但对眼前这个情况最好的做法是什么？记住那个目标。对吧？我的目标是什么？是帮助我的直接下属发挥出最佳表现？

I know I tend to seek, whatever it is. And then ask yourself, okay, but what's the best thing for this situation, keeping in mind that goal. Right? What is my goal here? Is it to help my direct report perform at their best?

是让这个项目按时完成？是因为我要疯了所以想赶紧结束这场会议？你到底需要达成什么，然后决定用哪种方法才能导向那个结果。当然，你可能会选错，对吧？

Is it to get this project done on time? Is it to get out of this meeting because I'm losing my mind? Like, what is it exactly that you need to achieve and then decide what the right approach is to lead to that outcome. Now you might get it wrong. Right?

你可能会想：哦，算了，我就随它去吧。结果冲突反而更严重，于是你就会说：好，不行，我得采取更直接的方式。

You might decide, oh, you know what? I'm gonna let it go. And then the conflict gets worse. And so it's like, okay. No.

我得采取更直接的方式。

I have to take a more direct approach.

所以，在我讲的故事里，我知道去找这个人是对的，但我并没有真正去挑战自己的回避。假设我能够挑战它，主动去沟通。

So, you know, in the story, I told I knew it was the right thing to do to approach this person, but I I didn't get to the point where I challenged my avoidance. So say I was able to challenge that and seek it out.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你得在整个对话过程中一次又一次地挑战自己。你是怎么做到的？

You have to just keep challenging yourself again and again throughout that conversation. How do you do that?

这真是个好观点，因为在那次艰难的对话中，会有大约100个时刻让你想回到逃避者的模式。嗯。所以部分也是重新框架。比如，这是你所谓的“对抗”吗？就像，我得去对抗他们。

That's such a good point because there are gonna be, like, 100 moments in that difficult conversation where you're gonna wanna default to your avoider style. Mhmm. So part of it is also reframing. Like, is this a confrontation you use? Like, I have to confront them.

对。对吧？这是对抗吗？听起来像是一次关于他们表现的对话，而你是在试图帮助他们。对吧？

Right. Right? Is it a confrontation? It sounds like a conversation about their performance in which you're trying to help them. Right?

我觉得逃避者常常认为，通过直接、提出艰难的对话，他们是在伤害别人。我想Amy B你之前也提到了这一点。进行一场艰难的对话并不是伤害，事实上，往往恰恰相反，这是有帮助的。

And I think partly what avoiders often think is that by being direct, by raising the difficult conversation, they're hurting someone. And I think Amy B, you were alluding to this earlier. It's not harmful to have a difficult conversation. In fact, it's quite often the opposite. It's helpful.

告诉那个人他们的表现不达标，其实是一种善意的做法。对吧？对。所以我认为你得先为自己重新框架，然后注意自己的自然倾向。可能下次对话你才迈出两步就放弃了。

It's the kind thing to do to tell that person that they're not performing up to snuff. Right? Right. And so I think you have to reframe it for yourself, and then notice your natural tendency. And it may be like you get two steps in in the next conversation and bail.

溜回你的办公桌。对吧？但下次你可能能撑到第四步。我觉得任何时候你在培养一项技能，你都会犯错，因为你一定会犯错。然后问问自己：如果我当时心态更好，我会怎么做？

Skip back to your desk. Right? But then next time you get four steps in. And I think anytime you're trying to build a skill is you make the mistake, because you will make the mistake. And then ask yourself, what would I have done differently if I was in a better frame of mind?

好，我下次试试。嗯。下次试试。你又犯了错。

Okay. Let me try that next time. Mhmm. Try that next time. You make a mistake again.

但希望是另一种错误。从中学习。

But hopefully, it'll be a different kind of mistake. Learn from that.

所以我想你说得对。我能想象自己进行到第二步、第三步时，还是会卡壳，还是无法推进，还是溜回办公桌，假装一切都好。如果你在对话中途就开始卡壳，该怎么办？

So I I think you're right. Like, I can envision myself getting to the second step, the third step of this this conversation and just still shutting down, still not being able to move forward, still skipping back to my desk, like, everything's great. What should you do if you find yourself in the middle of that conversation and you just start shutting down?

是的，所有神经科学都表明，当我们处于关闭状态时，我们极不擅长这些需要同理心、情绪自控的对话。当我们进入所谓的“杏仁核劫持”时，大脑会保护我们，而不是去做我们真正需要做的事，比如关心他人或清晰地传达信息。所以如果你卡壳了，别硬撑。

Yeah. All of the neuroscience shows that we are terrible at these types of conversations that require empathy, emotional self control when we are shut down. Right? When we go into what they often call amygdala hijack, our brains end up protecting us, not actually doing the thing we need to do, which is often caring about another person or delivering a message clearly. So if you were shut down, don't trudge ahead.

对吧？给自己一点时间。对那些更熟练的人来说，可能只需要30秒深呼吸，重新调整，提醒自己目标是什么。如果你是新手，最好暂停一下，说：你知道吗？这次对话真的很重要。

Right? Give yourself a moment. And it might be the more skilled among us might need thirty seconds to take a deep breath, reorient themselves, remind themselves of the focus. If you're new at this, it might be better to take a break and say, you know what? This conversation is really important.

我想确认我们俩都处于正确的心态来进行这次谈话。我们先休息一下，明天再继续。或者你甚至可能会说，你知道吗？我们先暂停一下。我去倒杯水。

I wanna make sure that we're both in the right frame of mind to have it. Let's take a break, come back to it tomorrow. Or you might even say, you know what? Let's pause. I'm gonna go get a glass of water.

你想跟我一起去倒杯水吗？对吧？只是稍微换个方式，给自己一点时间，利用你争取到的休息时间反思一下，好，我在哪里被绊倒了？我为什么开始崩溃？这很公平。

Do you wanna come with me to get one? Right? Just sort of switch things up to give yourself a moment and take the break you've bought yourself to reflect on, okay, where did I get tripped up? Why did I start melting down? Fair enough.

但为什么会发生这种情况？我能做些什么不同的事情来防止它再次发生？然后再回来继续。

But why did that happen? What can I do differently to prevent that? And then come back to it.

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这是netsuite.com/women@work。

That's netsuite.com/women@work.

既然我们已经讨论了一些最常见的冲突原因以及我们的自然倾向和选择，让我们再谈谈与直接下属之间的冲突。很好。

So now that we've gone over some of the most common causes of conflict and our natural tendencies and options, let's talk a little bit more about conflict with direct reports. Great.

我们收到了几位听众的轶事，他们是新上任的管理者，相对年轻。他们不得不应对那些不听他们话的更有经验的直接下属。那么我们该如何处理这种冲突呢，Amy G？首先，请帮我们归类一下。

We received several anecdotes from listeners who are new to management and are relatively young. And they've had to deal with more experienced direct reports who wouldn't listen to them. So how do we handle that kind of conflict, Amy G? First of all, help us categorize it.

是的。我的意思是，我认为有人不听你的话可能是一种地位冲突。对吧？比如，实际上谁有权决定谁做什么，或者谁有权发言，或者谁获得功劳。挑战在于我的直觉，我强烈的直觉是，在大多数情况下，这是一个年龄偏见的问题，嗯。

Yeah. I mean, I think having someone who's not listening to you is probably a status conflict. Right? Like, gets to actually decide who's gonna do what or who gets to speak up or who gets the credit. The challenge is my instinct, my strong instinct is that in most situations, this is an issue of age bias Mhmm.

或者其他类型的偏见，尤其是如果你是一个年轻女性。可能存在性别偏见。

Or other another type of bias, especially if you're a young woman. There might be gender bias.

对。

Right.

问题在于，仅仅知道这一点并不一定能让你更高效或更有效地应对，因为你会开始胡思乱想：这个人不喜欢我是因为我是女人，他们不喜欢我是因为我年轻。我觉得这样想没什么帮助。

The problem is knowing that does not help you necessarily address it more efficiently or effectively because you're then in your head like, this person doesn't like me because I'm woman. They don't like me because I'm young. I don't think it's helpful.

嗯，这确实能帮你把自己从冲突的根源中抽离出来。

Well, it does help you separate yourself from the source of the conflict.

没错。这不是针对我。

Correct. This is not about me.

是的。

Yes.

对吧？我觉得在这种具体情境下，这句话真的很重要，值得提醒自己。对吧？嗯。这不是针对我。

Right? And I think in this specific situation is a really important phrase and reminder. Right? Mhmm. This isn't about me.

这是针对他们。这是他们的偏见。这是关于——嗯。你不可能一下子解决所有这些问题。相反，你需要处理实际发生的事情。

This is about them. This is about their bias. This is about Mhmm. And you're not gonna address all of that. Instead, you need to address what's actually happening.

我会从非常小的地方开始。比如，他们没听你哪一件事，而你需要他们听进去？而不是陷入“他们不尊重我”“他们永远不会听”这种泛泛而谈。你可能确实有这些感受，而且它们可能非常真实、非常合理。

And I would start really small. Like, what is one thing they didn't listen to you about that you need them to listen to you about? Instead of going into sort of generalizations like, they don't respect me. They're never gonna listen. But you might have all those feelings and they might be really valid and they might be true.

但我认为你真的需要聚焦在那一刻你实际需要他们做什么。比如说，你给了他们一个项目。他们说，好好好，我会做。可他们还是没做。你又去找他们。

But I think that you really need to focus on what is it in that moment you actually need to get them to do. So let's just say you gave them a project. They're like, yeah, yeah, I'll do it. And they just still haven't done it. And you come back to them.

“等等，那个项目进展如何？”“好好好，我会弄的。”可他们还是没做。现在你既有状态冲突，也有任务冲突。

Wait. How's that project going? Yeah, yeah, I'll get to it. And they still haven't done it. Now you're having status conflict, but there's also a task conflict.

他们明白目标吗？他们知道该怎么做这个项目吗？你能不能设一个短期里程碑，让他们真正去完成，而不是把整个项目甩给他们、指望他们自己拆分？我觉得你也得把情况说清楚。对吧？

Do they understand the goal? Do they understand how they should do the project? Can you set a short term milestone that they actually need to achieve rather than the whole thing and expecting them to chunk it up themselves? And I mean, I think you wanna also make clear what's going on. Right?

我已经就这个项目问过你三次了，但你没有进展。怎么回事？嗯哼。对吧？就像一个非常中立的问题，但听起来会像是对峙。

I've asked you three times about this project and you're not making progress. What's going on? Mhmm. Right? Like a very neutral question, which is gonna feel like a confrontation.

但他们确实需要兑现承诺。而作为经理，你的职责就是让他们对这件事负责。嗯哼。我不知道。凯尔西，你能想象自己这么做吗？

But it's important that they actually follow through on what they do. And it's your job as a manager to hold them accountable Mhmm. To doing that. I don't know. Is that something you can imagine yourself doing, Kelsey?

我特别喜欢这个问题，因为它听起来不太吓人，却能直抵事情的核心。

I like that question specifically because it it doesn't feel too scary to ask it, but it gets to the bottom of what's going on.

是的。而且你不能预设自己知道原因。对吧。因为我觉得危险就在于你可能会预设是年龄偏见或性别偏见。或者你可能认为他们懒惰或不服从。

Yes. And you can't presume you know what's going on. Right. Because I think that's the danger is you might presume it's age bias or gender bias. Or you might presume they're lazy or they're insubordinate.

我不知道，随便什么。但一旦你开始告诉他们为什么这么做，你就完全冒犯到他们了。对吧？没人喜欢被告诉为什么做某事。你永远猜不对。

I don't you know, whatever. But the minute you start telling them why they're doing something, you've totally offended them. Right? No one likes to be told why they're doing something. You're never gonna get it right.

所以，相反，问问他们发生了什么。

So instead, ask them what's going on.

是的。用一种真正好奇的方式问别人，是什么阻碍了你完成这项任务，能让他们有机会给你一个诚实的答案。

Yeah. I mean, asking someone in a genuinely inquisitive way, what's getting between you and and finishing this task gives them a chance to give you an honest answer.

没错。这有点像绝地控心术，因为你必须保持那种真正的好奇。

Yep. And it's it's a bit of a Jedi mind trick you have to do because that you have to have that genuine curiosity.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

一旦你确信他们这么做是因为不尊重你或不把你当回事，或者你确信是因为年龄差距，就没有空间让这种关系发生变化了。就像……是的。确定性是这些协作对话的终结者。所以你必须找到一种方法，真正对实际发生了什么保持好奇。

The minute you are certain they're doing it because they disrespect you or they don't take you seriously or you're certain it's because of your age difference, there's no room to allow the dynamic to change. Like Yeah. Certainty is the death of these collaborative conversations. So you have to find a way to genuinely be curious about what's actually going on.

是的。揣测动机几乎总是会让你走上错误的轨道，

Yeah. And imputing motive is almost always gonna get you Yeah. On the wrong track,

我……有研究，我记得是密歇根大学的林迪·格里尔做的，研究当你给别人指派情绪时会发生什么。比如，我知道你很沮丧，或者你一定很难过。结果几乎所有人都猜错了。所以我们必须小心，不要给别人指派这些情绪、意图，因为这毫无帮助。

I There's research, I think it was Lindy Greer at Michigan who looked at what happens when you assign people feelings. Like, I know you're upset or you must be sad. And people almost universally get it wrong. And so we have to be careful we don't assign people these emotions, intentions, because it's just not helpful.

想象一下被指派情绪的感觉。

And imagine being assigned to feeling.

哦，太糟糕了。感觉糟透了。

Oh, it's terrible. It feels awful.

太糟糕了。

It's terrible.

太居高临下了。是的。

It's so condescending. Yes.

是的。即使他们猜对了，听起来也不对劲。是的。毕竟不是你亲口说的。

Yeah. Even if they're right, it sounds wrong. Yeah. It didn't come out of your mouth.

对吧？听起来就像在对小孩说话。用你自己的话说。

Right? Well, it sounds like you're being talked to like a toddler. Use your words.

是的。你应该用你自己的话说。

Yeah. You should use your words.

可是，你……

Well, but, you

知道像那样。

know like that.

嗯。嗯。

Yeah. Yeah.

好吧。我们还有什么？

Alright. What else have we got?

所以我想问你一个问题，我在谈论我第一次成为经理时犯的最大错误之一。我非常想成为一个很酷的老板。就像，我希望我所有的直接下属都想和我成为最好的朋友，然后我们之后一起出去喝酒。显然，这会带来很多问题。其中之一是当真正坐下来和他们说，嘿。

So one question I had for you, and, I'm talking about one of the biggest mistakes I made when I first became a manager. I wanted to be the cool boss so bad. Like, I wanted all of my direct reports to wanna be best friends with me and for us to go out for drinks afterwards. And, obviously, there's a lot of issues that come with that. One of them being when it came time to actually sit down with them and say, hey.

我是老板。我们得谈谈这件事。这让跨越那道鸿沟变得困难得多。嗯。那么，当你把一个直接下属或同事当作朋友时，你该如何处理冲突？

I'm the boss here. Like, we have to have this conversation. It made it so much harder to bridge that gap. Mhmm. So how can you handle conflict with a direct report or colleague that you see as a friend?

我觉得

I think

在你走到那一步之前，作为经理或新经理，你真的必须专注于被尊重，嗯，而不是被喜欢。做一个很酷的老板很好。如果他们喜欢你那很好，但这不是你的主要职能。对。

before you even get to that point, as a manager or as a new manager, you really have to focus on being respected Mhmm. Not liked. Being the cool boss is great. It's nice if they like you, but that's not your main function. Right.

你需要他们尊重你。你需要他们相信你把他们的最大利益放在心上。对吧？你需要有温度。嗯。

You need them to respect you. You need them to believe you have their their best interests at heart. Right? You need to be warm. Mhmm.

我不是说你不能友好。但你的优先事项是被尊重，并传达你需要为他们传达的内容。嗯。话虽如此，我认为你可以和你管理的人做朋友。我只是认为你必须始终清楚你戴的是哪顶帽子。

I'm not saying you can't be friendly. But your priority is being respected and conveying what you need to convey for them. Mhmm. That said, I think you can be friends with people you manage. I just think you have to be always be clear about what hat you're wearing.

事实上，你们都知道我在HBR刚开始时，我汇报的其中一位是我非常要好的朋友。嗯。想到这个确切的场景非常令人紧张，比如，如果我搞砸了怎么办？我们每次谈话都会先说，这是什么类型的谈话？这是工作谈话吗？

And in fact, you both know when I started at HBR, one of the people I reported into was a very good friend of mine. Mhmm. And it was very nerve wracking to think about this exact scenario of like, what happens if I mess something up? And we would start each conversation saying, what kind of conversation is this? Like, is is this a work conversation?

这是朋友之间的对话吗？你戴的是哪顶帽子？比如，我戴的是老板这顶帽子。我戴的是朋友这顶帽子。嗯。

Is this a friend conversation? What hat are you wearing? Like, I'm wearing my hat as your boss. I'm wearing my hat as your friend. Mhmm.

我认为你应该提前和你的直接下属把这一点说清楚，尤其是当你们开始成为朋友时。很多新经理都会遇到这种情况：他们曾经是和某人平起平坐的同事，现在却被提拔去管理对方。他们确实有过友好的关系。所以，一开始就有必要谈一次，说：关系已经变了。我认为我们必须承认这一点。

And I think you you would wanna lay that out with your direct reports ahead of time, especially if you start to become friends. I think a lot of what happens with new managers is they've been peers with someone who now they're promoted to manage. And they did have a friendly relationship. So it's helpful to have a conversation at the beginning and say, the dynamic has changed. I think it's important we acknowledge that.

我想做的是确保我清楚自己戴的是哪顶帽子。我希望你明白，有些事我可能不能告诉你；有些事我可能必须对你说，作为朋友我不想说，但作为经理我必须说。提前把这些说清楚，就相当于提前签了份协议。

What I wanna do is make sure that I'm clear about what hat I'm wearing. And I want you to understand that there's things I might not be able to tell you. There's things I might have to say to you that as your friend, I wouldn't want to, but as your manager, I have to. And just making that clear upfront so you sort of contracted ahead of time.

对。你刚才说的某一点似乎特别重要，我想再强调一下：你必须知道界限在哪里。因为如果你自己都不清楚，朋友兼下属也不会清楚。

Yeah. Something you just said seems so important. I I just wanna underscore it, which is that you have to know where the boundaries are. Yeah. Because if you're not clear on them, the friend slash report isn't gonna be clear Yeah.

的

On them

也一样。他们会跟着你的节奏走。嗯。没错。我认为还会出现另一个问题，那就是公平的问题。

either. They're gonna follow your lead. Mhmm. Exactly. I think there's another issue that comes up, which is the issue of fairness.

对。假设你确实告诉了你的朋友兼直接下属一些你还没告诉别人的事，结果传出去了。现在你就会被视为不公平的老板。说到冲突，你现在要面对的是一支不信任你、认为你偏心的团队。

Yeah. So let's say you do tell your friend slash direct report something that you haven't told others, and that gets out. Now you're gonna be seen as an unfair boss. Talk about conflict. You're now gonna be dealing with a team that doesn't trust you, that thinks you play favorites.

你知道为什么吗？因为她确实偏心了。

You know why? Because she just played favorites.

没错。在处理这些关系时，我认为有两条原则：尊重胜过讨喜，公平公正是首要的。对吧？你真的必须优先考虑这些。

Correct. When you're navigating those relationships, I think there's two principles. Respect over likability, and equity and fairness are premier. Right? You really have to make sure you prioritize those.

我认为公平公正的其中一部分，就是确保你总是非常清楚自己的决策依据是什么。

And I think that part of the equity and fairness piece is making sure that you're always really clear about what's guiding your decision making.

意图。对吧？

The intention. Right?

嗯哼。没错。

Mhmm. Exactly.

从一开始，我的意图就是，当你和新下属谈话时，要清楚自己扮演什么角色，这可能会让人不舒服。但如果你说，我这样做的意图，是想确保我们的关系尽可能顺利，我作为你的经理会尽力而为，因为我想对你负责。是的。

Starting everything. My intention with this is to having that conversation with your new direct report about having to be clear about what hat you're wearing might feel uncomfortable. But if you say, my intention here is to make sure this this relationship continues as smoothly as possible, and I do my best as your manager. Because I wanna do right by you. Yeah.

我唯一一次做管理，而且时间很短，我确实想当个酷老板。我尽一切努力让这个人喜欢我。嗯哼。

The one time I managed. And it was it was very short lived. I definitely wanted to be the cool boss. And I did everything I could to make this person like me. Mhmm.

然后我搞砸的方式是，我老板让我给她反馈——我想我可能在之前的节目里讲过这个故事——但我老板让我就一件我其实并不觉得需要反馈的事给她反馈，是关于她请假的事。我当时想，她把工作完成了，我不在乎她请多少假，也不在乎她是不是打电话请病假。

And then the way I totally ruined it was then my boss told me to give her and I think I might have shared this story on a previous episode. But as my boss told me to give her feedback about something I actually didn't think needed feedback, it was about her taking time off. And I was like, she's getting her job done. I don't care how much time she's taking off. I don't care if she's calling in sick.

我无法消化这个反馈，也无法用自己的方式传达。我只是决定必须完全按老板说的做。我传达时完全没有考虑那位我当作朋友的下属。结果……就是一团糟。她当场哭了。

And I couldn't digest the feedback and deliver in my own way. I just decided I had to do exactly what my boss said. I delivered it with no concern for the direct report who I also considered my friend. And it I mean, it was just a it was a mess. She just started sobbing.

真的很糟糕。太糟糕了。没错。我可以说，那是我开始做所有这些工作之前的事。

Like, it was terrible. It was terrible. Exactly. I will tell you, this is before I started doing all this work.

我觉得

I think

我想这次我会做得好一点。嗯。

I I think I do it a little bit better this time. Yeah.

我们来谈谈如何管理下属之间的冲突。如果你的两个下属彼此有冲突，你该怎么办？什么时候该由你来调解，什么时候又不该？

Let's talk about managing conflict among direct reports. What should you do if two of your direct reports are in conflict with each other? When is it your job to mediate that situation, and when is it not?

是的。你知道，你希望冲突能在尽可能低的层级解决。所以，如果你能帮助他们解决冲突，而不是用权威或指示介入，长远来看效果会好得多。因为这样一来，他们 hopefully 就能意识到自己可以解决冲突，你就不用每次都插手。所以你的职责不一定是直接干预，而是确保每个人都能完成自己的工作。

Yeah. You know, you want the conflict to be resolved at the lowest possible level. So if you can help them resolve the conflict as opposed to stepping in with authority or direction, it's gonna go much better over the long run. Because now, hopefully, they've figured out they can resolve their own conflicts, and you're not gonna be required to step in all the time. So it's your job not to necessarily intervene, but it's your job to make sure everyone can do their job.

这是管理者最重要的职责之一。所以如果冲突妨碍了他们完成工作，是的，你有责任采取行动。我建议先进行辅导，也许分别进行。对吧？和每个人单独谈话，让他们站在对方的角度看问题。

That's like one of the main jobs as managers. So if this conflict is getting in the way of them doing their job, yeah, you have a responsibility to do something about it. And I would encourage coaching first, maybe separately. Right? Having a conversation with each of them, asking them to see the other person's perspective.

发生了什么？你觉得是什么在驱动他们？你认为他们为什么会那样做？如果他们的观点有点偏颇或片面，可以温和地挑战一下。然后让他们说清楚到底在争什么。

What's going on? What do you think is motivating them? Why do you think they've done what they did? And maybe challenging their viewpoint if it's a little bit biased or one-sided in a gentle way. And then getting them to articulate what's actually at stake.

你可以谈谈四种冲突类型。这是哪一类冲突？让他们说出自己的目标，然后让他们决定下一步怎么做。你也可以对另一方做同样的事。最终，如果他们自己解决不了，你可能需要和他们一起坐下来谈。

You can talk about the four types of conflict. What type of conflict is it? Asking them to articulate their goal, and then get them to decide on how they want to proceed. And then you can do that with the other side too. Eventually, you may need to sit down with both of them if they can't do it.

嗯。我觉得有件事你得明确说明：协作是你们工作的一部分。我们所有人的工作都离不开协作。所以协作就是你们的工作。把这事解决就是你们的工作。

Mhmm. And I think one of the things you need to make explicit is that part of your job is collaboration. None of us have a job that doesn't require that. So part of your job is collaboration. Sorting this out is your job.

这不是我的工作，对吧？这是你的工作。实际上，让我退一步，因为首先你要确认自己是不是无意中制造了冲突——比如期望不明确、设定了竞争目标、鼓励了不健康的竞争，对吧？

It's not my job. Right? It's your job. Actually, let me as I say that, I wanna step back because one of the things you first wanna do is make sure you haven't inadvertently created the conflict by not being clear about expectations, by setting up competing goals, by fostering unhealthy competition. Right?

也许你做了什么可以调整，从而化解冲突。嗯。但一旦你理清了自己的责任，我觉得就该让他们在你的辅导下真正去解决。嗯。Amy B，你是怎么做的？

Maybe you've done something you can change that would diffuse the conflict. Mhmm. But once you've sort of sorted out your part in it, then I think it's on them to really sort out along with your coaching. Mhmm. How have you done it, Amy B?

嗯，如果一个人来找我抱怨另一个人，我已经学会了——因为我犯过这个错误——我会对那个人说，我需要听听另一方的说法，然后去听另一方的说法。

Well, if one person comes to me complaining about the other, I have learned, because I've made the mistake, to say to that person, I need to get the other side and then to get the other side.

首先

First of

当你说“我要去听听另一方的说法”时，故事有时会发生一点点变化。没错。我不认为人们故意撒谎。不会。但我确实认为人们会为自己辩护。

all, when you say to someone, I'm gonna get the other side, the story sometimes shifts just a little bit. Correct. I don't think people intentionally lie. Nope. But I do think people will make their case.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。我也理解另一面。然后，你知道，我说过，听着，你是想让我来裁决，还是你们自己解决，既然我已经知道发生了什么？

Yeah. And then I do get the other side. And then, you know, I I have said, listen. Do you want me to adjudicate this, or do you guys wanna work this out knowing that I know what's going on?

嗯。

Mhmm.

有时候你得挖出争端的根源，如果你愿意这么说的话。你知道吗？你得弄清楚到底发生了什么。是什么让你这么生气？是的。

And sometimes what you have to do is get underneath the bone of contention, if you will. You know? You have to sort of find out what's really going on here. What's pissing you off? Yeah.

你觉得会发生什么？你在这里担心什么？

What do you think that is gonna happen? What are you afraid of here?

是的。我把这看作是谈判中的“利益”这个词，对吧？不是立场。他们会带着自己的立场来。

Yeah. I think about that as, like, the negotiation term of interests. Right? Not the position. They'll show up with their position.

我想要X。他不会做这件事。但利益是什么？他们想要这个的底层原因是什么？他们无法相处的底层原因是什么？

I want x. He won't do this. But what's the interest? What's the underlying reason why they want that? What's the underlying reason they can't get along?

然后试着解决这个问题，而不是在他们的立场之间谈判。嗯。对。

And then try to address that, not negotiate between their positions. Mhmm. Right.

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我们现在来谈谈相互竞争的利益吗？

Should we talk now about competing interests?

当然。

Yeah. For sure.

是的。那么，如果你的老板对你的直接下属有不同的期望，你会怎么做？我们有一位听众Jen分享了她的经历。我们来听听她怎么说。

Yes. So what if your boss wants something different for your direct report than you do? We have a listener, Jen, who shared an experience with us about this. Let's hear from her.

公司有一个明确的指令，希望员工要么只做战略，要么只做执行。这影响了我手下的两个人。原本他们从头到尾负责项目，现在我得让其中一人只做战略，另一人只做执行。坦白说，这并不是他们当初应聘时的工作内容。我曾试图争取不让我的团队进行这种职责调整，因为我觉得目前一切运转良好，这种变动不会有好处，但最终没能成功。

The company had a directive that they really wanted people to either do strategy or execution. So that impacted two of the people reporting to me. Instead of them both doing projects end to end, I had to have one of them start doing just strategy, one start doing just execution. Not what they signed up for, frankly, when they applied for their roles. I tried negotiating for that roles and responsibilities change to not happen for my team because I felt like things were working so well that this change wouldn't be good, but I was not able to make that happen.

所以，当我的经理告诉我必须按照既定方向推进时，我只能接受，并想办法让我的团队适应。

So once my manager let me know that, no. We need to move forward with the way the direction has been given, then I just had to do that and figure out a way to make that work for my team.

这是我最不喜欢的冲突类型，因为你在两头受夹。既要和老板冲突，也要和直接下属冲突。我觉得诱惑有两个方向：一是你可能只想讨好老板，说“好吧，我和直接下属去谈”，

These are my least favorite types of conflict because you're having a conflict both ways. You're having a conflict with your boss and with your direct report. And I think the temptation goes two ways. One, you might try to just please your boss and say, okay, fine. I'll have the conflict with my direct report.

告诉他们必须接受这个安排，即使我自己并不认同。另一个诱惑是无条件地为直接下属争取。我认为这两种做法都不对。作为管理者，一部分工作就是尽量满足各方利益相关者，同时仍要聚焦自己的目标和指标。所以对于像Jen这样夹在中间的人，首先我会先搞清楚自己觉得什么是对的。

Tell them they have to work on this even though I don't believe it. Or the temptation is to just advocate for your direct report at all costs. Neither I think is the right approach. Part of being a manager is trying to please all of these stakeholders and while still keeping a focus on your goals and your targets. So I think for someone like Jen who's sort of stuck in the middle, first of I would feel out what you think is the right thing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

考虑他们的观点，甚至可能还有更多人参与。然后想清楚什么对你想要完成的工作最有利。接着回去想：这意味着我得去说服我的老板改变主意，并让他们听听我直接下属的意见。

Consider both their perspectives or all of their perspectives. There might be even more people involved. And then consider what you think is the best for the work you're trying to achieve. Mhmm. And then go back and say, okay, that means I need to advocate to my boss to change their mind and let me give them my direct report.

也许可以找到一个折中的办法，让你觉得合适。或者，也许我得告诉直接下属：实际上我认同高层的看法，认为你应该专注在这里。我知道这不是我们原先说好的，或者不是你最喜欢的，但这就是我觉得重要的原因。我觉得关键始终是把它和业务目标联系起来。

Maybe there's a compromise that feels like the right thing. Or maybe it's that I have to deliver the news to my direct report that, you know, I actually agree with the higher ups about what you should be focused on. I know it's not what we agreed on, or I know it's not your favorite thing, but here's why I feel it's important. Mhmm. And I think the key is to really always tie it back to the business goals.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你到底想达成什么目标？你为什么做出那个决定？然后把它清楚地表达出来。我觉得最糟糕的事情就是让那锅冲突继续煮得更深更浑。对吧。

What are you actually trying to achieve? Why you've made that decision? And then deliver it clearly. I think the worst thing you can do is to let that stew of conflicts just get deeper and murkier. And Right.

如果你能清楚地说出你想要什么或你认为什么是最好的，然后围绕这一点进行协商，我觉得你会更好。我觉得最糟糕的事情之一——我可以告诉你我自己也非常想这么做——就是直接说：‘哦，老板，你能和直接下属谈谈吗？太好了，你来处理。’对吧？

If you can be clear about what you want or what you think is best, and then negotiate on each side of that, I think you're you're better off. I think one of the worst things, and I can tell you I've been very tempted to do this myself, is to just be like, oh, boss, can you talk to direct report? Great. You handle it. Right?

因为那样你就显得毫无权力。

Because then you've just you look powerless.

是的。嗯。当我看到这个问题时，我会问——如果我是当事人，我会回去问老板为什么。这个决定背后的原因是什么？是的。

Yeah. Mhmm. As I was looking at this question, I I would ask I would go back to my boss if I were in in this situation and ask why. What's behind this decision? Yeah.

因为我确实想认同它。是的。对吧？或者如果我不同意，我想基于它的价值来反对。嗯。

Because I do want to buy into it. Yeah. Right? Or if I don't agree with it, I want to disagree with it on the merits. Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

而且这其中确实涉及一定程度的调解。

And there is a certain amount of mediation involved.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对你的直接下属说：‘听着，我受到了一些压力，要我们改变做事方式。老板是这么说的。在我们这么做之前，我会去调查一下。’我的意思是，这里需要很多透明度。是的。

Saying to your direct report, listen, I'm getting some pressure to switch around the way we're doing things. Here's what the boss is saying. Before we do this, I'm gonna go investigate. I mean, there's a lot of transparency involved here. Yeah.

然后去调查。提出问题。和你的老板进行对话，说：‘我很想了解你为什么要求这个改变。我的阻力来自这里。’

And then investigate. Ask the question. Have the conversation with your boss, and where you say, I'd love to understand why you're asking for this change. Here's where my resistance is coming from.

嗯。

Mhmm.

帮我理解一下，这样我才能以有说服力的方式解释。

And just help me understand so I can explain it in a way that is persuasive.

我喜欢这句话。'帮我理解，我才能解释。'因为你可能得不到满意的答案，你的直属下属仍会对决定不满，但至少你已尽力充分理解。

I love that. Help me understand so I can explain it. Because you may not get a satisfying answer. And you your direct report may still be unhappy with the decision. But at least you've understood it fully to your capacity.

你已经清楚决策背后的意图。然后你可以对下属说：'我知道你不高兴，理想情况下我也许会选择不同做法。'

You've been made clear what the intention behind the decision is. And the question may be to your direct report. Alright. I know you're not happy with this. I think in an ideal world, I might have made a different choice.

但让我们一起想办法把这件事做好。

But let's talk together how we can make this work.

如果我确实心存疑虑，我会对老板说：'要不这样，我们先试行六周或六个月，然后再复盘。'你必须保持开放心态。毫无解释地发号施令违背了管理的基本原则，对吧？

The other thing I would do is if I really had doubts, and because I really think my job is to advance the interests of the organization, is to say to my boss, how about if we do this, we'll give it six weeks or six months, and then let's check-in. You have to be open minded. Yeah. But getting directives without any explanation kind of violates a basic rule of management. Right?

是的，我们必须承认这种情况确实会发生。

Yes. And we have to recognize that that sometimes happens.

确实会发生，但我们并非无能为力，我们可以回去沟通。

It happens, but we're not powerless. We can go back

说'帮我理解'。最坏的情况就是经理回答：'因为这是决定。'或者更糟：'我不知道，我上面的领导做的决定。'

and say, just help me understand. Right. And then, I mean, I'm thinking of the worst case scenarios of your manager saying, well, because that was the decision. Or even worse, I don't know. The guy above me made that decision.

我不知道，再上面的女领导做的决定。你知道的，就是这样。

I don't know. The woman above him made that decision. I you know, like Yeah.

我不知道。如果我的老板说因为某某原因，我不会高兴。他让我这么做。你不能带着任何自豪感说那样的话。

I don't know. I would not be happy if my boss said Because so and because Right. He made me. Right. I mean, you could not say that with any kind of pride.

不会。

No.

得了吧。

Come on.

但听你说的时候，这好像是我作为新经理时遇到的最常见的冲突之一。我的策略总是说，老板就是这么说的。所以，这就是我的做法。听你这么说，感觉这是最糟糕的

But as I as I hear you talk, this was one of the most common forms of conflict I feel like I encountered as a new manager. And my tactic was always to be like, well, that's what the boss said. So, like, that was my approach. So to hear you kind of lay that out, it's like, one of the worst

做法之一。

possible things you could do.

回想起来还挺有意思的。

It's it's kinda funny to reflect.

那你为什么会那样做？

Also, but why what made you do that?

我觉得我之所以那样做，归根结底是想避免冲突，而把责任推给别人是避免冲突的终极方法。

I think what made me do I mean, it it comes back to wanting to avoid that conflict and being able to blame somebody else was the ultimate way to avoid conflict.

是啊。

Yeah.

因为你可以生气。情况确实不好，但你知道，这不是我的错。我们还是好朋友。下班后我们还是会一起去喝酒，然后一起吐槽高层做的决定。这是我与下属建立关系的方式，也是我避免正面冲突的方法。

Because it's like, you can be mad. This is a bad situation, but, you know, it's not my fault. We're still we're still BFFs. We're still gonna go have drinks after work, and we'll all talk about how much, like, we're mad at, like, the higher ups for doing what they did. And it was a way to, like, bond with my direct reports, and it was a way for me to not have to confront Right.

这件事显然让我一直很挣扎，所以

This thing that, obviously, I I struggle with a lot. So

是啊。所以当你一边喝着玛格丽塔一边吐槽管理层时，你什么时候意识到，等等，我自己就是管理层

Yeah. So when you're taking down management over a margarita, at what point do you realize, well, wait a second. I'm management

对。我在吐槽我自己。是啊。嗯。这正好是一个例子，凯尔西，把讨人喜欢置于受人尊重之上。

Right. I'm taking down myself. Yeah. Mhmm. Well, and it's a perfect example, Kelsey, of prioritizing likability over respect.

你当时以为他们尊重你，因为你是和他们一起吐槽的。但一旦你让他们去做点什么，他们就会说，啥？你也是我们的一员啊。

You think in the moment they respect you because you're in on it with them. Right. But the minute you have to tell them to do something, they're like, what? You're one of us.

对。没错。

Right. Exactly.

等等。我们刚才还在边喝玛格丽塔边吐槽管理层呢。而且

Wait. We were taking down management over our margaritas. And

更重要的是，我都不知道为什么我要让你做这件事，这可激发不了多少尊重。

and more to the point, I don't know why I'm asking you to do this, isn't gonna inspire a whole lot of respect.

对吧？肯定不行。

Right? Definitely not.

不行。也激发不了动力。绝对不行。对吧？嗯。

No. Or motivation. Oh, hell no. Right? Like Mhmm.

这是让人只付出最少努力把事情做完的好办法。

That's a great way to get someone to give the least amount of effort to just get something done.

对。

Right.

是的。说句公道话，有时候你会说，这只是我们必须完成的一个形式，因为这是规定。我们都经历过这种情况。就像，是的，只是走个过场。

Yeah. And to be fair, sometimes you say, this is just a box we have to check because this is what's required. We all have been in that position. Like Yeah. Just check the box.

希望这不是他们工作的主要部分。

Hopefully, that's not a major part of their job.

对。但你必须选择你的战斗。你对你的团队说，我们必须选择我们的战斗，因为这不是我们选择的战斗。是的。这就是原因。

Right. But you have to choose your battles. And you say to your team, we have to choose our battles since this is not the battle we're choosing. Yeah. And here's why.

是的。没错。

Yeah. That's right.

你总是必须进入解释原因的阶段。

You always have to go into the here's why.

是的。是的。

Yes. Yes.

哦，我们来谈谈听众Crystal提出的另一个问题。她问，如何在坦诚地与团队沟通的同时，保护他们免受周围和上层办公室政治的影响？

Oh, let's talk about another question we got from a listener, Crystal. She asks, how can you be open and honest with your team while shielding them from the office politics going on around and above you?

你希望帮助你的团队了解组织是如何运作的。对。你希望帮助他们应对非正式的政治，但你不需要向他们详细汇报经理会议的情况。

You want to help your team understand how the organization works. Right. You want to help them navigate the informal politics, but you don't need to give them the play by play of the manager's meeting.

不。另一件事是你不能溺爱别人。三个人在一个房间里，你就会有政治。对吧？

No. The other thing is you can't coddle people. You get three people in a room, you're gonna have politics. Right?

所以

So

我一直在琢磨“屏蔽”这件事，就是把人们挡在政治之外。我的意思是，那些细节、那些肮脏的小细节，其实没必要分享。

the shielding piece I've been chewing on the whole idea of shielding people from politics. I mean, the blow by blows, the sharing of nasty little details that probably not necessary.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但人们真的不应该认为管理、领导和团队合作是没有摩擦的。对吧。

But people really shouldn't think that management leadership and teamwork is frictionless. Correct.

我喜欢你说的方式，Amy，因为你要确保他们明白冲突是正常的。

I love the way you said that, Amy, because you want to be sure they understand that conflict is normal.

任何决策都会涉及权衡。有时正确的事就是把这些权衡透明化。我们知道如果我们做X，Y那边就会受点损失。嗯。但我们决定更重要的是

And any decision is gonna involve trade offs. Sometimes the right thing to do is to be really transparent about the trade offs. We know that if we do x, we're gonna take a little hit over here on y. Mhmm. But we decided that it's more important to

是的。

Yes.

做X。我们做出这个决定是因为当时掌握的信息就是这样。通过分享理由，你就把大家拉到了同一条船上。嗯。

Do x. And we made this decision because this was the information we had. And in sharing the rationale, you're bringing people on board. Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果以后出现新的信息，你会希望团队把它提出来。

If other information comes to light, you would want your team to surface that.

对吧？嗯嗯。是的。然后直接说，这是决定，去执行。而不是说，嘿，经理团队里有一场激烈的争论，有人想这么做，有人想那么做。

Right? Mhmm. Yes. And then to say, here's the decision, go off and do it. Instead of saying, hey, there was a great debate at the manager's team about wanting to do this and wanting to do this.

有些人这么想，另一些人那么想，基于这次讨论——说实话，讨论有时还挺激烈——但我们得出了一个好结论。我们就这么做。

Some folks felt this way. Other folks felt this way based on this this conversation, which to be fair got heated at times, but we came to a good conclusion. We're gonna do this.

正是如此。

Exactly.

如果你在执行过程中发现还有更多信息能影响我们做出的权衡，就告诉我

If you find out in the process of carrying that out that there's actually more data that would inform this trade off we made, let me

好的。嗯嗯。

know. Mhmm.

我把分享办公室政治看作是在分享八卦。嗯嗯。研究显示，八卦最负面地反映的不是八卦的对象，而是八卦的人。当然。所以如果你坐在那里说，哦，某某部门，某某人，他们怎么怎么样，这会让你自己看起来很差。

I think of the sort of sharing of office politics as sharing of gossip. Mhmm. Which is that the research shows that gossip most negatively reflects not on the topic or subject of the gossip, but the gossiper. Of course. So if you sit there going, oh, so and, you know, so and so's department, so and so, and they blah blah blah, It makes you look bad.

当然。

Of course.

并不会让他们看起来差。这又回到了凯尔西的问题：酷老板掌握大量看似权力的信息，也确实是一种权力。但如果你用它来跟下属拉关系、让他们喜欢你，或者用来交换，那就变成交易了：我给你这些信息，是因为你觉得这能让他们表现更好或更有动力。你得质疑这种做法。

It doesn't make them look bad. This connects back to Kelsey's question about the cool boss is you have a lot of information that feels like power, and it is power. But if you use that to try to bond with your direct reports or get them to like you or you sort of exchange it becomes transactional. Like, I'm I'm gonna give you this information because you think it'll make them perform better for you or be more motivated. You gotta question that.

嗯。好的，我知道我们得收尾了。凯尔西，我太想知道了，因为你一开始就说你多么讨厌冲突，多么回避。嗯嗯。

Yeah. Okay. I know we need to wrap up. Kelsey, I'm dying to know because you started this by talking about how much you hate conflict, how avoidant you are. Mhmm.

这对你有帮助吗？

Does has this helped at all?

确实如此。我一开始就说，艾米·G要来这儿，肯定会把我彻底打败。

It has. I I came into this episode saying Amy G's gonna come in here and absolutely destroy me.

我当时真的准备好了。所以了解她。

Like, I was so ready. So know her.

我当时完全准备好了，因为我知道我不擅长这个，我自己也很清楚。但我现在的感受不一样了，我觉得这次对我有帮助，是因为我一直把冲突看作非常负面的东西，必须不惜一切代价避免。而听你们两位谈论冲突，是从一种它其实能帮到你、能帮到你的团队、能帮到你的组织的角度。

I was just so ready because I I know I'm bad at this. I'm very self aware of that. But I I do feel differently, and I think the reason this has helped me is because I've always treated conflict as something super negative, something to avoid at all costs. And I think hearing you both speak, you speak about conflict from a place of it's actually there to help you. It's actually there to help everyone on your team, and it's actually there to help your organization.

这是我从未想过的角度。我总是用负面方式看待它。所以，从这次谈话中，我对冲突的心态已经完全不同了，我非常感激。

And that's just not a way that I ever thought about it. I always took the negative approach to it. And so, you know, coming away from this, I think my mindset around it is just very different, and I I appreciate that a lot.

是的。记住，回避冲突的人并不是做错了。在我们的文化里，我们确实看重直接沟通和坐下来谈清楚，但用完全直接和诚实的方式处理每一个冲突并不是正确答案，对吧？

Yeah. And and just remember that conflict avoiders are not the ones doing it wrong. Like, I think in our culture, we do value the sort of directness and sitting down, hashing it out. But addressing every single conflict with complete directness and honesty is not the right solution. Right?

对吧？谁想和那种人在一起？

Right? Who wants to be with that person?

所以，我不想让那些可能因为'我得改进'而听这期节目的冲突回避者觉得他们全做错了。再说一次，没人做得完全对，关键是认识到自己的本能，然后判断：我是顺着本能，因为这对当下情况合适？还是我得逆着本能，因为这对当下情况更合适？

So I don't want the conflict avoiders who maybe chose to listen to this episode because they're like, I need to get better at this to feel like they're doing it all wrong. Again, no one's doing it right. It's just a matter of recognizing what your instincts are and trying to decide, do I follow those instincts because it's the right thing for this situation? Or do I need to go against them because it's the right

是的。

thing Yeah.

我期待听到你下一次冲突的故事。

For this situation? Well, I look forward to hearing about your next conflict.

我会第一个发消息给你。

You'll be the first person I message.

也许是我们的冲突。也许我们会有冲突。哦，天啊。我知道。我立刻想，我希望

Maybe it's our conflict. Maybe we're gonna have a conflict. Oh, gosh. I know. Immediately, I'm like, I hope

不会，但我们可以应对。我们可以。要有信心。

not, but we can handle it. We can. Confident.

我们可以。是的。

We can. Yeah.

本期节目就到这里。我是艾米·伯恩斯坦。

And that's our show. I'm Amy Bernstein.

我是艾米·加洛。而我是

I'm Amy Gallo. And I'm

凯尔西·阿尔佩奥。HBR还有更多播客，帮助你管理自己、你的团队和你的组织。可在 hbr.org/podcasts 找到，或在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或你收听的任何地方搜索 HBR。

Kelsey Alpeo. HBR has more podcasts to help you manage yourself, your team, and your organization. Find them at hbr.org/podcasts or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

《职场女性》的编辑与制作团队包括阿曼达·克西、莫琳·霍克、蒂娜·托比·麦克、罗布·埃克哈特、埃里卡·特拉克勒、伊恩·福克斯和汉娜·贝茨。罗宾·摩尔创作了本节目的主题曲。

Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoke, Tina Toby Mac, Rob Eckhart, Erica Trucksler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed this theme music.

感谢收听。我们的邮箱始终开放。womenatwork@hbr.org。

Thanks for listening. Our inbox is always open. Women at work at hbr.org.

艾米·G 写过关于冲突的书。实际上，她写了两本关于冲突的书。

And Amy G wrote the book on conflict. In fact, she wrote two books on conflict.

《HBR 冲突应对指南》以及她的最新作品《和睦相处》，你都可以在 store.hbr.org、亚马逊或任何购书平台找到。

The HBR guide to dealing with conflict and her latest getting along, both of which you can find at store.hbr.org, on Amazon, or wherever you buy books.

毕马威通过创造价值来成就非凡，例如开发战略洞察以推动并购成功，或将人工智能解决方案嵌入您的业务以维持竞争优势。毕马威，成就非凡。了解更多，请访问 www.kpmg.us/insights。

KPMG makes the difference by creating value, like developing strategic insights that help drive m and a success or embedding AI solutions into your business to sustain competitive advantage. KPMG, make the difference. Learn more at www.kpmg.us/insights.