如何管理：摆脱琐事困扰

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您正在收听哈佛商业评论的《职场女性》节目，我是艾米·伯恩斯坦。欢迎来到我们《如何管理》系列的第二季。本季专为中层管理者、希望成为中层管理者，以及管理中层管理者并希望了解他们关切、挫折与抱负的人士而设。作为一名中层管理者，我在不同公司担任此职多年，深知各方对你的期望——既要辅导员工绩效，又要确保团队成功，并在动态环境中发挥领导作用。

You're listening to women at work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein. Welcome to season two of our how to manage series. This season is for mid level managers and for those of you who hope to become mid level managers and for those of you who manage mid level managers and who wanna be in tune with their concerns and frustrations and their aspirations. Being a mid level manager myself and having been one for years at different companies, I understand the stress of people on all sides expecting you to coach individual employee performance, make teams successful, and lead in fluid environments.

这压力巨大。我理解有些日子你感觉责任全在你肩上，却毫无实权；我也明白当团队高效协作时，那种成就感有多棒。在接下来的四集中，我将与几位女性探讨如何执行战略、推销想法以及向上晋升。我们首先从一项技能开始——学会放手那些拖累你的工作。我花了多年时间才真正体会到，放下对细节的掌控、在恰当的层面参与，是多么重要。

It's a lot of pressure. I understand feeling some days as if you have all the responsibility and none of the authority, and I also understand how great it can be when your team is just clicking. Over the next four episodes, I'll speak with women about executing strategy, about selling ideas, about rising up. We're starting with a skill that you'll need to master before any of that, letting go of work that's holding you back. It took me many years to appreciate the importance of this skill of relinquishing my grip on the details and engaging at the right level.

大约十三年前，我加入《哈佛商业评论》担任编辑时，仍决心沿用过去二十年的编辑方式——逐句分析、逐段润色每一篇文章。我刚来时就这样做了，但很快发现这根本无法持续：太耗时，也太疲惫。更重要的是，我意识到《哈佛商业评论》的编辑们本身非常出色。

It wasn't until about thirteen years ago when I joined HBR as editor. And I came in determined to approach editing the way I had for twenty years before that, which was to analyze and polish each article sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph. I tried that when I got here, and it became apparent immediately that it was unsustainable. It was too time consuming, and it was exhausting. But more to the point, what I realized was that the editors at HBR were terrific.

他们把这项工作做得非常好，根本不需要我再在他们之上或之后重复劳动。他们不需要我这么做。于是，我从这种层级的工作中抽身，让自己能更长远地思考杂志未来的发展方向。在你成为管理者之前，你很可能是一位出色的个体贡献者。

They did that work, and they did it really, really well. They didn't need me to do it on top of them behind them. They didn't need that. So that's when I pulled myself away from that level of work and kind of freed myself up to think a little bit more long term about where we were gonna take the magazine. Before you became a manager, you were probably an individual contributor who was great at her job.

事实上，你之所以被提拔为管理者，正是因为你在原岗位上表现出色。如今，你管理着一支设计、生产或销售你过去亲手打造之物的团队。现在，你的职责是为团队设定愿景，并引导他们朝目标前进。

In fact, you're probably promoted to manager because you were great at your job. And now you manage a team that designs or produces or sells the stuff you used to create. Now you're responsible for setting a vision for that team and guiding them toward it.

你有没有过这种感觉：如果你不亲自做具体工作，只是在把握方向，那也许只是我这样想——但我到底为团队贡献了什么价值？我每天早上醒来都会想：如果我不动手做事，我在自己的岗位上真的创造了足够价值吗？

Do you ever have this feeling like if you're not doing the work and you're holding the vision so this maybe it's just me, but what value am I adding? I wake up every morning and, like, am I adding enough value in my role if I'm not doing anything, if I'm not doing the work?

这是我的同事詹妮弗·朗，她道出了我曾感受到的焦虑，也许你也曾有过。我将与她以及另一位《哈佛商业评论》的中层管理者加布里埃拉·埃斯帕达·洛萨诺探讨，她们是如何在多年中学会放手的。但首先，我要和利娅·加文聊聊。她创立了组织战略公司“The Workplace Reframe”，并撰写了《不可阻挡的团队》一书。她将带来一些理念，帮助你和你所管理的团队，共同投入更高层次的工作。

That's my colleague, Jennifer Long, articulating an anxiety I felt, and maybe you have too. I'm going to talk to her and another mid level manager at HBP, Gabriela Espada Lozano, about how over the years they've learned to let go. But first, I'm gonna talk to Leah Garvin. She founded the organizational strategy firm, The Workplace Reframe, and she wrote the book, The Unstoppable Team. She's here with ideas that'll position you and the people you manage to do more of the highest level of work you're each capable of.

首先，她是这样理解‘不愿放手’这一问题的。

To start, this is how she understands the problem of holding on.

我认为这个问题有两个方面。一方面，这很普遍；另一方面，人们害怕成为微观管理者，或陷入琐事之中。于是出现了两种极端：要么太多人过度干预，要么人们因害怕而完全回避管理。我看到的正是这两种极端在职场中同时显现。

So I think it's twofold. I think, one, it's common. And second, there's a big fear of being a micromanager or being too far in the weeds. And so you get these two issues where either too many people are micromanaging or folks are fearing it, so they're kind of avoiding managing altogether. And that's what I'm seeing is like these two different extremes showing up in the workplace.

那么，理想的平衡状态是什么样子呢？嗯，我认为理想的平衡是与团队建立关系，真正了解他们的优势、劣势和超能力，以及他们对职业发展的兴趣，从而为他们安排具有挑战性的项目机会。你必须真正学会委派任务。如果没有做到这一点，我想我们往往会像我说的那样，因为担心团队成员做不好而抓得太紧，或者

So what does the happy medium look like? Yeah. Well, I think the happy medium is building relationship with your team so you really understand their strengths and weaknesses and superpowers, their interests for their careers so that you can line up opportunities for them to take on stretch projects. You really understand delegating. In the absence of this, I think we do either, like I said, holding on too tight because we're worried our team members aren't going be

我们之前自己做这项任务时很享受，也很擅长，于是就一直自己做下去。或者我们担心自己管得太细、太苛刻，于是就对团队成员说：‘去吧，放手去做，你行的。’

able to cut it or we enjoyed doing that task before we were good at it, and so we just kind of keep doing it. Or we're worried about being too much in the weeds, too overbearing, so we tell our team members, hey. Go ahead. Run with it. You got this.

但他们其实并没有做好成功的准备，反而觉得我们只是把他们直接扔进了深水区，毫无准备。

And they're actually not set up for success, and they kinda feel like we just threw them into the deep end unprepared.

你知道吗？这其中的很大一部分，不仅仅是信任你的团队成员，更是要信任你自己，对吧？

You know, so much of that is not just trusting your team members. It's trusting yourself. Right?

没错。这需要我们相信自己有能力向他人解释如何完成某项任务，也要相信我们的上级会支持我们。我认为信任的另一部分是：当我作为中层管理者委派任务时，我发现对自己最大的挑战之一，就是来自我上级的压力，他们要求我全程跟进。所以我真的很想让这个人放手去做，但每天我都会收到上级的邮件：‘这件事进展如何？’

Exactly. It requires trusting ourselves to be able to explain to someone else how to do something, to trust that our own managers are gonna support us. I think that's another piece of the trust is I found one of the biggest challenges for myself when I was delegating as a middle manager was that I was getting pressure from my own manager to be fully looped in. And so I was really wanting to set this person up and let him run with it. But when I I'm getting email from my manager every day, what's going on with this?

然后我就开始抓得更紧了，事情就这样逐渐恶化了。

Then I start holding on a little bit tighter, and it kinda snowballs from there.

你能告诉我们一个具体的时刻吗？那时你意识到：‘天啊，我陷得太深了，我必须放手了。’

So can you tell us about a specific time when you realize, ugh, I'm I'm in this too deep. I've gotta let go.

当然。几年前，我在一家大型科技公司工作时，曾管理一位负责组织团队大型活动的项目经理。首先，组织活动总会让我极度焦虑：人们会来吗？活动会顺利吗？

Yeah. Years ago, when I was working in big tech, I was managing a program manager that was responsible for running a big event for our team. So first of all, running events gives me the worst anxiety. Like, are people going to show up? Is it going go well?

活动会不会一团糟？因为这种焦虑，我紧紧把控着团队成员所做的每一件事。但我要说明的是，我的团队成员其实非常热爱策划活动，而且非常擅长。可这仍然是我自己的焦虑，所以我不断检查：‘你有没有考虑过这个？’‘你做了这个吗？’‘你试过这个吗？’

Is it going to be a mess? And I think because of that, it had me holding on really tight to what my team member was working on. Now, my team member, mind you, she loved planning events and was really good at it. But still, it was my own anxiety. And so I would check-in like, hey, did you think about this?

在反复检查多次后，她对我说：‘嘿，我知道这件事让你很紧张，但我真的很喜欢做这个，而且我有自己的一套方法。’于是我意识到：‘好吧，这真是个警钟。’

Did you do this? Did you try this? And after checking in a bunch of times, said to me, hey, listen, I know that this stresses you out, but I actually really like doing this. And here's how I want to approach it. And so I said, okay, this is a wake up call.

所以我问她：好吧，别光用我的清单，给我看看你的项目计划。她的计划比我原本想的要好得多，这立刻让我明白：当有一个人真正处在自己的天赋领域中推进事情时，你不需要事无巨细地干预，也不需要事事都去检查。不过，更复杂的是，这对我们的团队来说是一次非常重要的活动。于是，就像我刚才说的，我的经理不断来问我：嘿，她搞定这个了吗？

So I asked her, okay, show me your project plan instead of just using my checklist and things. And her plan was so much better than what I had thought of. And it showed me right away, Okay, when you have someone that's really in their zone of genius running with something, you don't need to be too far in the weeds and you don't need to be checking on every detail. Now, what made it even more complicated, though, was this was a very high stakes event for our team. And so then I had my manager, like I was just saying, checking with me constantly and saying, hey, did she figure this out?

她完成这个了吗？我们有没有通知我们的领导？所以我得双向管理，对吧？在向下管理时稍微放手一点，但在向上管理时，我得说：嘿，我知道这非常重要。

Did she do this? Have we informed our leadership about this? And so then I had to do the managing both directions, right? Letting go a little bit on the managing down. But on the managing upside saying, hey, I realize this is really high stakes.

我和我的团队成员沟通过了，这是她的计划，这是我计划跟进的地方，这是我打算让她自由发挥的地方。你对这个计划满意吗？

I've met with my team member. Here's her plan. Here's where I'm going check-in with her. Here's where I'm gonna let her really run with stuff. And are you good with that plan?

这是我们三个人可以聚在一起讨论进展的时间点。那一刻我意识到，授权不仅要求你放手，不再过度干预团队成员，同时也需要做好向上管理。

And here's when the three of us can come together to talk about updates. And so I noticed in that moment that delegating not only requires letting go from your managing your own team member, but some managing up is really important to do as well.

让我稍微退一步，问你一个问题：你作为中层管理者需要跳出细节的原因之一，是因为陷在细节里是不可持续的。这里其实有个混合隐喻，但除此之外，还有其他原因，对吧？

So let me let me just take a step back for a sec and ask you, you know, part of the reason that you need to get out of the weeds as a mid level manager is because being in the weeds is unsustainable. There's a mixed metaphor there somewhere. But but there are other reasons aren't there.

没错，我认为首要的一点就是——你刚才说对了：你不可能事事亲力亲为。所以，关键是要意识到，要么我们主动明确界限，要么这个界限会在我们时间耗尽时被迫出现。我通过咨询和工作坊接触过很多人，他们的挑战在于：死死抓住不放，结果最后什么都没完成。

Yeah. I mean, I think first and foremost well, you just called it. You can't do everything. And so I think one of the things just to recognize is either we can intentionally define the cut line or that cut line will happen when we run out of time. And I think one of the challenges that folks that, again, that I work with through consulting and workshops is this refusing to let go of things only to find actually didn't finish anything anyway.

那我们抓得太紧时会发生什么？我以前遇到过一些经理，他们参加每一个会议，一周的待办事项清单长达六个月。我每周都看着他们，他们参加每一个会议、参与每一次对话。我在想：嘿，这事我来就行，他们根本不必在场。

And so what happens when we're holding on too tight? I've had managers in the past that they were in every single meeting and their to do list for a week was like six months long. And every week I would watch them and they would be in every meeting and in every conversation. And I was thinking, hey, like, I've got this. They don't have to be here.

我看到他们越来越焦虑，于是不得不问：这是信任问题吗？你觉得我做不好吗？或者，你需要什么样的信息更新，才能感到安心？在这种情况下，我的经理对我说：等等，你说得对。

And I saw them get more stressed. And I had to say, you know, is it a trust thing? Do you think I can't do this? Or what level of information can I loop you in on so that you feel okay about it? And in this situation, my manager said to me, oh, wait a second.

我确实陷得太深了。她几乎需要一个醒悟的提醒——有人在注意了。当你反复检查那些发给内部团队成员的邮件，甚至逐字校对时，这就有点过头了。

You're right. I'm too far in the weeds. Almost like she needed a little bit of a wake up call that, you know, yeah, someone's noticing. When you're double checking, you know, like, copy editing an email that's going to internal team members, that's a little bit too much.

真正的挑战在于，弄清楚该以什么高度来介入。没错。

Really, the challenge is figuring out what altitude to come in at. Yes.

对吧？

Right?

你怎么知道自己飞得太低，太专注于细节了？

How do you know when you're flying too low to the ground, when you're too close to the details?

没错。一个信号是：我是不是参加了大量我的团队成员也在参加的会议？如果是，你可以和团队成员聊聊，比如：‘我需要你把会议信息向下传达。’如果你出现是因为不同层级的信息需求，比如一些更属于你职责范围、而非团队成员的事项，那这就是一个绝佳机会，让你的团队成员站出来，说：‘我希望你能代表我们整个团队参与更高层面的事务。’所以，我建议定期——比如每季度——检查一下你的日历，看看谁在参加这些会议。

Yeah. One tell is, am I in a lot of meetings that my team members are also in? Then you can set up a conversation with your team member around, hey, here's the way I need you to cascade information out of the meeting. If you're showing up because there are different levels of detail being asked about, you know, maybe something that's more in your purview versus your team members, then it's a real opportunity to have your team members step up and say, hey, I'd like for you to represent our whole team in this larger capacity. So I think going through your calendar, do an audit on a quarterly basis, you know, go through and see who's attending these meetings.

有没有哪些会议我可以退出？我建议人们从三个不同的方面审视自己的工作：可能是会议，可能是你正在处理的任务，也可能是你发送的邮件——总之，所有你花费时间的事情。

Are there ones I can step away from? And I suggest in the situation that folks look across work in three different buckets. So it could be meetings. It could be tasks you're working on. It could be emails you're sending, really, whatever you're spending your time on.

第一个类别是你绝对必须亲自处理的事情。剧透一下，其实没多少。

And the first bucket is stuff that you absolutely have to be doing. And spoiler, it's not a

很少。嗯哼。

lot. Mhmm.

第二个类别是那些你可以立即委派或外包的事情——任何看起来唾手可得、很容易放手的任务。

This is probably two or three things that you're doing the whole week. Actually, you can narrow it down to that. Right. Then the second bucket is what are things that you're doing that could immediately be offloaded or delegated? Whatever it looks like that's, like, very, very low hanging fruit to offload.

中间的部分是：你为什么在做这些事？是因为团队中存在技能差距，或者角色空缺吗？比如，你很想把某项工作交给某个团队成员，但他们还没准备好；或者你失去了一位团队成员，所以你不得不暂时接手他们的职责，这才让你陷在细节里。

Then the middle piece is what are things that you're doing? Because there's a bit of a skill gap on your team or there's a role gap. So maybe you have a team member that you'd love to hand this thing off to, but they're not quite ready for that. Or maybe you've lost a team member and so you're covering for some responsibilities. And so that's why you're in the details.

但第二个类别，要么成为你培养和培训团队成员的计划，要么就是你未来可以招聘的新岗位的职位描述。所以，当你做这项时间审计时，你不仅能弄清楚自己真正的核心价值在哪里，还能知道如何让团队成员达到他们应有的水平，或者明确你究竟缺什么，是否能通过招聘新成员来填补这个空缺——前提是你有编制或预算。

But the second bucket becomes either a plan of how you can develop and train some team members, or it's the job description for a role that you can hire for. So when you do this time audit, you not only figure out, well, what is your real highest and best use, but how do you get your team members to the place they need to be? Or what is exactly the gap there that you could fill with a new team member if you can have the head count or or you're able to budget to hire somebody?

对于会议，我觉得那个冗余问题太聪明了。我还有另一个做法：我会问自己，我在这里有没有创造价值？因为我总能查看会议记录，或者看演示文稿。

For meetings, I think the redundancy question is so smart. I have another thing I do, which is I ask myself, did I add any value here? Because I can always look at the meeting transcript. Yeah. I can look at the deck.

我不是经常像应该的那样去做这些事。但如果我真的没有带来任何价值，没有在引导团队朝某个方向前进，或者没有帮助做出重要决策，那我为什么还在那里呢？是的。但当你不在会议中时呢？比如埋头苦干或管理员工的时候。

Not that I do that as frequently as I should. But if I was really not adding anything, if I wasn't, you know, nudging the team in one direction or another or helping to make an important decision, then why was I there? Yeah. But what about when you're not in meetings? The sort of the the heads down work or the management of people.

你怎么知道自己陷得太深了？

How do you know you're you're just too deep in the weeds?

是的，我认为另一个信号是，当每个人都来找你做每一个决定，或不断向你汇报时。这在我看来意味着两种情况之一：要么大家觉得他们自己做决定不安全，因为你已经营造出一种你深度参与的氛围；要么大家认为你希望参与其中。这两种情况都会导致同样的结果——你的团队成员无法独立运作。

Yeah. I think another tell is when everyone's coming to you for every decision or checking in with you constantly. And that I think means one of two things. Either folks don't feel comfortable to make decisions on their own because you've already set the tone that you are involved in that capacity or people think you want to be involved in that capacity. And they both result in the same thing that your team members aren't operating independently.

所以，当我们发现自己说‘天啊，我已经解释过十次了’，或‘我总是参与这些对话’，或‘为什么大家就是不明白呢？’——这其实是一个明确的信号，说明我们需要设定更清晰的期望，讨论他们的困惑在哪里，以及我是否参与得过多，然后开始逐步放手。你知道，也许你觉得团队成员希望你参与，但有时这其实是因为我们自己营造了这样的环境。

And so I think when we find ourselves saying things like, gosh, I've explained this 10 times already, or I'm always involved in these conversations, or why don't people just get it? Like, this is a real signal that we could set some clearer expectations, talk about where is their confusion, where am I maybe too involved, and then start to let go a little bit. You know, it may feel like our team members are wanting us to be involved, but sometimes I think it's because of the situation we've set up.

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访问 netsuite.com/women@work。

That's netsuite.com/women@work.

我想谈谈我们中一些人在放手时所经历的情感创伤。我的意思是，当你意识到自己不能再像过去那样事无巨细地操心时，那种感觉真的会击中你——因为那样做无法带你走向目标，也无法带你团队走向目标。你该如何与放弃控制权达成和解？

I wanna talk about the emotional trauma for some of us of letting go. I mean, you know, when you decide it hits you that, you know, you just can't operate at the same level of detail that you're used to, that that's not gonna get you where you need to go. It's not gonna get your team where you need to go. How do you how do you make peace with giving up control?

是的，我记得在谷歌时，我负责为我所在的团队从零开始建立多元化与包容性项目。这个项目非常成功，我在公司内部因此获得了大量认可，还因此获得了晋升，并得以招聘一名团队成员来接替这个职位。

Yeah. I remember back at Google in one of roles, I built our diversity inclusion program for the team I was on. I built it from the ground up, and it was really, really successful. I had gotten a lot of notary around the company for having done this. I got promoted, and I was able to hire a team member to backfill this role.

我得以从事更大范围、更具跨部门影响力的工作，但这让我非常恐惧，因为我太喜欢我原来的工作了。我亲手打造了它，我清楚地知道如何运作它，也清楚哪些方法有效、哪些无效。

And I was able to do something a little bit bigger and more cross company. And it was so terrifying because I loved what I was doing. I built it from the ground up. I knew exactly how to run it. I knew exactly what worked and what didn't.

我不得不做几件事来放手。我认为第一步是，在面试和招聘过程中极其审慎——这在任何情况下都应该是我们的标准做法，但更重要的是，确保我招聘的人不是为了照搬我已制定的计划。当我与这个人建立信任，并开始观察他们的工作方式后，每当我想给出反馈时，我都会先自我反省。比如，当他们发给我一份文件或提案让我审阅时，如果我察觉到一丝‘嗯，我觉得这里可以改进’的念头，我就会问自己：‘这个项目的核心目标是什么？这个人想达成什么？’

And I had to do a number of things to let go. I think first was really be extremely thoughtful with the interviewing and hiring process, which we should be in any situation always. But to really make sure that I was not hiring someone of the pretense that they had to run with the plan that I established already. And then as I built trust with this person and started to see the way they worked, I would check myself whenever I had feedback. So when they would send me a document to read a proposal and I noticed a little tinge of like, I don't know, I would say, okay, what are the objectives of the project that this person's sharing?

这个反馈更多是关于我本人和我的方式，还是真的能帮助项目更好地实现目标？但正如你所说，这确实是一场情绪过山车。我认为我们很多人都在挣扎，不愿意自己打造或擅长的东西脱轨或表现不佳。当然，这是因为我们非常在意。问题是，正如你所说，如果我们认为自己必须永远掌控一切，我们就永远无法扩展自己，也无法扩展团队。

Is this feedback more about me and my way or is it actually something that's going to help the project accomplish that goal in a better way? But like you say, it an emotional roller coaster for sure. And I think a lot of us struggle with not wanting this thing that we built or really good at to go off the rails or to not go well. And of course, that's the case because we really care. And the problem is if we, like you said, we can never scale ourselves and really our team if we think we're gonna just hold on to control forever.

我们必须让别人放手去做，但这并不意味着不会带来内部的极大压力。

We have to let folks run with it, but it doesn't mean it doesn't cause a lot of stress internally.

没错，确实如此。但我只是想向那些刚接触这个话题或正在应对它的人们保证：你会慢慢适应的，这其实也是一种解脱，对吧？

Yeah. That's for sure. But I I just have to reassure our listeners who are kinda new to this or who dealing with it that you kinda get used to it, and it's also kind of a relief. Right?

没错。有趣的是，我刚才举了那个活动的例子。活动总让我夜不能寐，压力山大。但当我意识到——

Exactly. Well, that's what's so funny is so I gave that example with the event. Events keep me awake at night. I'm all stressed. And when I said, hey.

我不必再为这件事操心了，我能睡得更好了，也更快乐了，还能接手更多项目。所以，当我们真正意识到这一点时：我的角色是帮助这个人成功，而不是事事亲力亲为。

I don't have to worry about this. I could sleep better. I was happier. I was able to take on more projects. And so the moment we do let that click in of like, hey, my role here is to help this person be successful, but I don't have to do everything.

我不必事事检查，因为我们已经讨论过哪些风险需要上报、需要沟通。这种转变带来的解脱感前所未有，也正是从那时起，我的职业生涯开始加速。

I don't have to check every corner because we've already talked about the parameters in which we'll raise, you know, risks and talk about those things. It became the biggest relief, and that's actually when my career started to accelerate

没错。

Right.

当我带着这种心态时。

Of I come with that.

但我现在在想，当你设定期望并委派任务时，中层管理者该如何设定足够清晰的期望，又不至于——我就用你的话说——过度干预，这真是个绝妙的词。

But now I'm wondering you know? So when you're setting these expectations and you're delegating to someone, how does a middle manager set clear enough expectations without being, I'll just use your phrase, micromanaging, a great word.

没错。我认为最重要的是把它变成一场对话。要讨论这个项目的总体目标，然后邀请团队成员参与进来：你觉得该怎么解决这个问题？有什么想法？通过这些开放式问题，让他们真正融入计划中。

Exactly. So I think the biggest is to make it into a conversation. And so to talk about, well, here's the goals of this project and then inviting your team member in. So how would you solve this, or what ideas do you have? And using some of these open ended questions to enlist them into the plan.

因为当我们雇佣了一位团队成员，他们之所以被录用是因为他们能力出众、经验丰富，而我们却给他们一套固定的工作流程，这时候就会让人感觉是在微观管理，对吧？所以我认为，应该让他们参与讨论，询问他们打算如何处理，而那些担心自己会做错的人，我们之后可以给予反馈。比如，我们可以说：‘我很喜欢你启动项目的这部分。’

Because when we have a team member and they've been hired because they're great and they have awesome experience and then we give them a recipe for how to do their job, well, that's where it feels micromanaging, right? And so I think enlisting them in the conversation and asking how they'd approach it and folks listening that are scared they're going to get it wrong. Well, we can give feedback then. Right. We could say, well, yeah, I really like the kickoff part.

在中间阶段，我们不妨试试这个方法。最终，这会非常有效。但通过让他们参与讨论，你就能让他们真正认同并愿意为计划负责。

Think in the middle, let's try this. In the end, that's really strong. But by enlisting them in the conversation, now you're getting them bought in and feeling accountable to the plan.

当你已经将一个项目、一项任务或一个团队的管理权下放后，如何在不重新陷入微观管理的情况下保持跟进呢？

So when you have delegated a project, a task, management of a team, how do you keep tabs without being, again, micromanage y?

我认为有几种方法。首先，我们始终需要某种工作追踪系统。我认为，我们始终需要在某个共享视图中随时可见两个信息：这个项目的进展状态，以及这个人还有多少剩余工作容量。对于我所咨询的许多团队，我建议每周做一次总结，让团队成员在周末发邮件给你，说明：‘这是我的目标，这是我完成的工作。’

So I think there's a couple ways. First is we always wanna have some kind of work tracking system. And I think the two things that we always wanna have in some sort of shared view that we can see at any time without asking people is what is the status of this project and what is the capacity this person has for more work. With many teams that I consult with, I suggest doing a weekly recap where team members send you an email at the end of the week saying, hey, here are my goals. Here's what I accomplished.

这是我在过程中遇到的障碍，需要帮助的地方。有时你会回复，有时你不会，有时你只是看一下，有时这会成为讨论的话题。但我强烈建议大家养成定期汇报的习惯。

Here's any bumps in the road I ran into where I need help. And sometimes you respond, sometimes you don't. Sometimes you just look at it. Sometimes it's something to talk about. But to get in a rhythm where you have folks regularly reporting is something I strongly encourage folks have.

关于具体委派任务，我认为在设定期望时，非常重要的一点是讨论清楚检查和评审的形式。如果这是一个涉及利益相关者、需要他们了解进展的高风险项目，我们可能会约定：在第一个月里，每周三和周五下班前进行一次检查，以建立这种节奏。但你不需要在周二和周四也检查，就像我想再看一遍、再确认一遍那样。

Now, with delegating specifically, I think it's really important as part of the expectation setting to have a conversation on what do check ins and reviews look like. So if it's a high stakes thing with stakeholders that are wanting to understand the status, we might say we're going to check-in end of day, Wednesday and Friday, every week for the first month really to get in this rhythm. But you don't check-in Tuesday and Thursday like I just want to I want a second and a third look

这个

at this

事情，除非你可以说：‘嘿，我们的副总裁给我发了消息，所以我才来跟进。’我知道我们已经安排了周三的常规会议。因此，我喜欢认可既定的时间安排，即使有时我们需要突破这个范围。

thing. Unless you could say, hey, our VP sent me a note. That's why I'm checking in. I know we have our regular meeting set up Wednesday. So I like to acknowledge the preset times, even if sometimes we have to go outside that.

通过认可：‘我知道我们已经达成了这个共识’，你就不至于破坏信任，让人觉得你把计划扔到一边了。然后我喜欢讨论：哪些决定是我来做，哪些是你来做？我们始终希望尽可能把决策权下放，让员工感受到自主权。作为管理者，你可能仍有一些关键事项必须由你来拍板。因此，要与团队明确区分这些情况，说清楚：‘在这些时刻，我需要做决定、做批准。’

And by acknowledging, hey, I know we've decided this expectation and then you don't break that trust where it looks like you kind of threw the plan out the window. Then I like to talk about, well, which decisions am I making versus you making? And, you know, we want to always be pushing decisions down as far as we can in an organization so folks feel like they have autonomy to do their jobs. And as a manager, there's likely things that you really still should be the decider on. And so really differentiating those with your team and saying, hey, here's the moments when I need to make the call, make the approval.

我需要在它发布前审核。对吧？你已经谈到了评审和检查，也谈到了何时做决策，最后，我们还要讨论：‘完成’的标准是什么？我们如何知道工作做得好？

I need to see it before it goes out the door. Right. So you've talked about reviews and check ins. You've talked about when to make decisions. And then last, talking about, well, what does done look like and how do we know that we've done a good job?

有没有什么指标或关键绩效指标，我们希望达成的具体成果？这样我们才能知道，这件事已经彻底完成，做得很好，并且达到了我们设定的目标，可以继续推进到下一项任务。

Any metrics or KPIs, key performance indicators, any outcomes we want to be hitting, you know, so that we know, okay. This thing is done to completion. It's done a good job. It hit the goals that we had, and we can move on to the next thing.

我认为，作为一名中层管理者，你既要对团队和项目的工作负责，也要对那些拥有更宏观视野的人负责，关键是要弄清楚你真正需要了解和跟进的是什么。这很可能涉及确保项目、任务和团队始终与战略保持一致。是的，我们常常忽视这一点。但随着你的职责范围扩大，帮助团队将他们的工作与组织的更大目标联系起来，变得至关重要，你必须主动承担起这个责任。

I think it's really important as a mid level manager where you are responsible for the work of a team, a project, but you're also responsible to someone who's got a broader purview to to figure out what you really do need to know and check-in on. And and it's probably something along the lines of making sure that the project, the task, the team is on strategy. Yeah. And and we often lose sight of that. But the bigger picture and just always helping the team connect their work to the organization's bigger goals, I think, becomes, as your purview grows, something you really have to own.

完全正确。我很高兴你提到了这一点，因为将工作与组织的更大目标联系起来，能带来很多好处。它能帮助人们做出更好的决策，因为他们明白：如果我卡在这里，不知道下一步该怎么做，那组织的目标是什么？

Absolutely. I love that you called that out because, you know, connecting to the bigger goals organization, that does a number of things. It helps people make decisions better because they understand, hey. If I'm stuck here, I don't know how to move forward. Well, what are the goals of the organization?

对吧？我们绝不能对接下来该做什么毫无头绪。我们应当有清晰的方向，或者一个明确的北极星，作为我们行动的依据。

Right? We should never have no idea what to work on next. We should have we should have some clarity or some north star that we're operating against.

没错，这完全正确。我们需要和团队一起弄清楚这一点。在赋能团队的过程中，你自己必须学会适应，必须养成放手过去那种控制欲的习惯。同时，你还要帮助团队成员承担责任并建立问责意识。

Right. I think that's that's absolutely right. And we we figure that out together as a team. Let's talk about, you know, in this process of empowering your team, you, yourself, have to become comfortable, and you have to get into the practice of giving up the kind of control you once had. At the same time, you have to help your team to take responsibility and accountability.

你有什么好办法，能帮助团队成员变得更加自主？

What are your best ideas for helping your team members become more autonomous?

是的，我认为这一切归根结底在于在团队中培养一种主人翁意识。那么，我们该如何创造这种意识呢？就像我提到的，我们会问团队成员：如果是你，你会怎么解决这个问题？

Yeah. I think it all comes down to fueling this ownership mindset across your team. And so how do we create that? Well, think a number of things. Like I mentioned, we ask our team members for how they would solve things, right?

我们会征求他们的意见，让他们知道他们的想法在这里很重要。我们还需要明确的角色和职责分工。我们要讨论如何协作，但更要确保每个人清楚地知道：哪些领域是我真正擅长并负全责的，这样大家才会对工作产生真正的归属感。然后我们还要讨论：遇到问题该如何升级？

We ask them for their inputs. We show them that your ideas matter here. We also want to have really clear roles and responsibilities. Want to talk about how to collaborate, but make sure folks really see, you know, gear is what I'm really an expert for and accountable for so that people feel committed to that work. And then we talk about, well, how does escalations work?

我们如何总结经验教训？因为我认为，当我们害怕失败时，往往会推卸责任、互相指责——我们担心一旦出错，所有责任都会落到自己头上，于是就不敢再主动承担更多任务。所以，创造一个允许失败的安全环境，是心理安全感的一部分：我们要建立一种文化，让大家能公开谈论错误，分享从中获得的教训，团队一起讨论成功与失败的案例。我认为这也能激励人们更主动地站出来。另一个关键点是建立认可文化。

How do we talk about learnings? Because I think one way we sort of pass the buck or start pointing fingers is when we're afraid if we fail, you know, it's all coming down to us, we start to not take more on. And so making it safe to fail, which is part of psychological safety, where we have a culture where we talk about mistakes openly, we talk to what we learn, we share examples of wins and losses as a team. I think that helps people step up as well. And then another big one is having a culture of recognition.

这并不是发什么参与奖，而是真诚地认可团队成员所做的工作，让他们明白：嗯，事情并不都是糟糕的，我听到的不光是负面反馈，当事情出错时；我也知道，总体上我正走在正确的道路上，事情进展顺利。我感到自己有力量承担更多，继续前进，整个团队也会更有韧性。

And it's not about giving participation awards. It's about genuinely appreciating work your team members are doing so that they see, okay, you know, it's not all bad. I'm not just hearing feedback when something goes poorly, but I know in general I'm moving in the right direction. This is going well. I feel empowered to take more on, to keep moving forward, and we feel more resilient.

是的，我喜欢所有这些做法。我用的另一个方法是，如果我想让别人承担责任，我会公开赋予他们责任。我希望他们能做报告，这样在别人眼里，他们也是真正的负责人。我认为，放下自我，退到一边，让团队在承担责任时发光发热，这一点至关重要，因为责任是他们的。

Yeah. And I love all those. Another one that I use is that if I want people to take ownership, I give them ownership publicly. I want them to present the report so they can also be the owners in other people's eyes as well. It is so important, I think, to put your ego aside, get out of the way, and let your team shine when they have taken ownership and that the accountability is theirs.

是的，我很喜欢这一点。我觉得我过去在委托任务时也遇到过这种情况——在我雇人接手我的DEI项目之前，我管理着一支志愿者团队，曾把几个项目交了出去。其中有一个项目，我刚交出去就立刻想：天啊，那真是个绝佳的项目。

Yes. I love that point. And I think that is something that happened to me in the past of when I was delegating pieces before I hired that team member to take on my DEI program. I had a team of volunteers I was managing and I had handed off a couple of projects. And there was one in particular that right after I handed off, I was like, oh, man, that was such a good one.

我为什么要把这么好的项目交出去？那明明是最好的一个！我当时一直在自责。后来我意识到，我正陷入一种匮乏心态，觉得再也想不出另一个这么棒的项目了。其实我明明列了十个任务，交出去了八个，因为我自己还能做两个，或者不管多少个。

Why did I do that? Like, that was the best one. And I was beating myself up over it. And then I thought to myself that I am operating in this scarcity mindset that like I wouldn't be able to think of another great project. I mean, I had a list of 10 things, and I handed off eight because I could do two or however many.

当我们认为好任务不够分时，我认为这正是破坏信任的开始。其实，好任务是无穷无尽的。

And when we believe there's not enough good work to go around, I think that's one of the things that starts breaking up all this trust. Right? And there it's an infinite.

是的，当你意识到自己正出于不安全感行事时，你很可能不是在展现最好的自己。没错，完全正确。

Yeah. I mean, when you realize you're operating from a place of insecurity, you're probably not being your best self. Right? Exactly. Exactly.

嘿，莉亚，我想听听你对我们收到的一封听众来信的看法。让我跟你分享一下。她觉得自己陷入了一个两难境地：一方面被要求对他人负责，另一方面却常被看作是‘专横’和‘控制欲强’的人。这正说明了我们一直在讨论的——责任与微观管理、放手之间的平衡是多么微妙。

Hey, Leah. I'd love to get your thoughts on an email we got from a listener. Let me let me share it with you. So she feels that she's in a double bind because she's expected to hold people accountable, but is often seen as being, and and this is in quotes, bossy and controlling. This speaks to how it can be such a delicate balance, what we've been talking about, you know, between accountability and micromanaging, and letting go.

对吧？那我们怎么知道自己是真正的微观管理者，还是只是被这样看待了呢？作为中层管理者，我们该如何区分别人的看法与实际情况？

Right? So how can we know if we're micromanagers or or we're just being perceived that way? How do we separate as middle level managers perception from reality?

这是个非常好的问题。我认为，当我们做了很多练习，并反复问过今天讨论中提到的那些问题后，下一步就是审视一下：我们在向团队提出要求时，用的是什么样的语言？在我的第一本书《突破》中，我举过一个例子，讲的是我在管理项目时陷入的一个误区——关于重新定义责任。我曾经会跟团队成员说：‘我需要这个在两点前完成’，或者‘你得把这个做完’。然后我突然意识到：等等。

It's such a good question. And I think, you know, when we've done a lot of the exercises and kind of asked ourselves the questions that we've talked about in this conversation today, I think the next thing to do is to look at, well, what is the language that we're using when we're asking for things from our team? And I have an example in my first book, Unstuck, when I talk about reframing accountability, which is a trap I fell into when I was managing projects. And I would ask a team member, hey, I need this by 02:00 or I need you to finish this. And I was like, wait a second.

我说‘我需要’，可这根本不是我需要，这是他们的工作啊！我无意中陷入了一种语言陷阱，让事情看起来像是关于‘我’和‘他们’，而实际上，它应该关乎‘他们’和‘他们的职责’。于是我开始调整表达方式，改说：‘这个成果需要在两点前提交给利益相关方’，或者‘工程评审在两点，届时请把你的工作成果发给他们。’

I'm using I need this. Like, this is I don't need it. This is person's job. And I was falling into a trap of using language that was making it about that person and me when it should be about that person and their job. And so I started to reframe and I said, okay, this is due to the stakeholder by two or, you know, the engineering review is at two Please share, you know, your work with them by then.

我开始非常敏锐地留意自己使用的语言，这带来了巨大的转变——我不再像在要求别人为我做一件恩惠的事。我认为，当我们管理团队时，同样的问题也会出现，比如我们说‘我需要你完成这个’，或者‘我做了这个’，满口都是‘我、我、我’，但其实这根本不是关于‘我’的。

And I started to really become very, very tuned into the language I was using. And that made a huge shift where it wasn't like I'm acting like this person's job is a favor to me. And I think the same plays out when we're managing our teams, right, as we say, I need you to get this done or I did this. And it's like, I, I, I. It's not about you.

责任球始终在团队成员的场地上。我认为它的力量其实远超我们的想象。接着我们可以进入下一个层次，就像你所说的，当女性表现得更直接时，人们往往认为她是个“专横的人”，而不是一个领导者，这存在一种偏见。我常用的一个工具，无论是作为管理者自己使用，还是与我合作的团队分享，就是作为管理者，要与团队讨论你的管理风格和沟通方式。比如，进行一次对话。

The accountability ball stays in your team members' courts. And I think that it actually has so much more power than we realize. Then we can get to the next level, which is, you know, like you said, there's a bias around when a woman is more direct at being called bossy, right, as opposed to a leader. One of the tools that I use both myself as a manager and also share with teams that I work with is, as a manager, talk about your management and communication style with your teams. Like, have a conversation.

告诉他们：嘿，我通常喜欢这样给予反馈，或者我在这些情况下非常直接；或者当你需要来找我提反馈时，请在这些情境下告诉我。你要和团队进行这种设定预期的对话，以此来尊重彼此，避免在不同情境下表现得截然不同。你可以说：嘿，我每天下班时都很忙，正在收尾，我得走了。

Say, hey, here's how I love to give feedback, or I'm really direct in these situations, or here's a way that when you need to come to me and share some feedback, please, in these situations. And you have this level setting conversation with your teams, and you're honoring that so that you don't show up differently one way when something happens versus another. And you can say, hey, am very busy at the end of the day. I'm wrapping up. I mean, I need to leave it.

所以，如果我给你发一封只有一个字母“K”的邮件，这并不意味着我讨厌你，而只是表示我收到了。然后你可以问他们：你的沟通风格是什么？这样你就能再次创造一种对话，而不是让人们自行猜测、产生偏见。把事情说清楚，我认为坦率一点也没关系——很多时候我们很直接，却还不断道歉。

So if I write you a one letter email, K, it doesn't mean I hate you. Like it means I'm just acknowledging the receipt. You know, then you ask them, what is your communication style? So that you're creating a, again, a conversation around it instead of people making assumptions and then peppering and bias. And so getting it out there and and being I think being somewhat unapologetic about it, I think so many times we're direct and then we're apologizing.

没错。然后我们一会儿这样，一会儿那样，这也会制造混乱。

Yeah. And then we're this and then we're that. And so that also creates some thrash.

对，这很令人困惑，完全是一团乱麻。没错。

Right. And it's confusing. It's confusing. It's a mixed it's a mixed message. Exactly.

最后，我觉得提醒自己很重要：你之所以被赋予这个角色，是因为人们信任你能做好，也信任你能找到属于自己的方式。归根结底，你必须相信自己，以你认为应有的方式去表现——这不可能让每个人都满意。所以，不要把别人对你的反应和你的自我尊重混为一谈。人们不可能总是喜欢你做的每一件事，但你希望他们尊重你所做的事情。

And then finally, I think it's helpful to remind yourself that you've been put in this role because people trusted you to do it well, and people also trusted you to find your way into it. Right? And, ultimately, you have to trust yourself to show up the way you think you ought to show up, which isn't gonna make everyone happy. So don't confuse other people's response to you with your own self respect. People aren't always gonna like everything you do, but you want them to respect what you do.

对吧？

Right?

当然。人们如何接收我们，不可能对每个人都一致。文化、语言和你来自世界哪个地方，都会带来差异。这始终是对话的一部分。

Absolutely. How people receive us is not always gonna align for everyone. There's gonna be differences based on culture and language and where you're from in the world. Right? That always will be a part of the conversation.

所以，你越投入去与团队成员建立信任，设定清晰的期望，就越好。我想说，回顾我们刚才讨论的所有内容，如果你正在听，心里想：天啊，我得做这么多事吗？我该怎么应对这一切？我想提醒你：微观管理的问题，不在于“做什么”，而在于“什么时候”。

So the more you've invested in building up that currency with your team member and then having the clear expectations. And I would say, you know, I think of everything we've talked about, if you're listening, thinking, gosh, it seems like I got to do a lot of stuff, right? Like, oh, my God, how do I even kind of wrestle with all this? I want to remind you, I think micromanaging is less about what. It's more about when.

当我们事后才去纠正、修补每一个小细节，随着事情推进不断介入时，那种感觉才真正像是微观管理。因此，我建议不要回避设定期望或提前明确成功的标准——这样做，我们才能建立信任，确保每个人都有信心取得成功。我们一开始的对话就谈到了两种极端：有些人过于纠结细节，而有些人则完全回避。

So when we're correcting later and we're fixing all little things and we're kind of in the details as things progress, that's when it really feels more like that. And so I wouldn't avoid the setting expectations or bringing clarity around success when we do that up front. Now we're building the trust. We're making sure everyone feels like they can be successful. And so I think we started our conversation talking about these two extremes of some of these people are too in the weeds, sometimes people are so avoidant.

但如果我们不设定任何期望，我们的团队成员会和我们过度干预时一样不开心。

But if we don't give any expectations, our team members are just as unhappy as if we are way too far in the weeds.

没错。我们都想知道期望是什么。我们想知道，是的，我们想知道边界在哪里。我们需要这些信息，以便更好地开展工作。

Right. We all wanna know the expectations. We wanna know Yeah. We wanna know the guardrails. We want to know this so that we can operate better.

利娅，这次交流太棒了。非常感谢你带来如此精彩的对话，我非常感激你的所有见解。

Leah, this has been so good. Thank you so much for this great conversation. Really appreciate all your insights.

非常感谢，我也非常享受这次交流。

Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it as well.

毕马威通过创造价值来产生影响，例如开发有助于推动并购成功的战略洞察，或将人工智能解决方案融入您的业务以维持竞争优势。毕马威，成就不同。了解更多，请访问 www.kpmg.us/insights。

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我今天与加布里埃拉·斯帕多利扎诺和珍妮弗·朗两位哈佛商业出版公司的中层管理者交谈。加布里埃拉是我们质量保证与发布经理，珍妮弗是我们学习设计总监。多年来，她们在学会放手方面积累了丰富经验，但至今仍每天都在为此挣扎。我比较了解珍妮弗，对加布里埃拉了解较少，但我知道她们都是深思熟虑且高效的管理者。因此，我很想知道她们对利娅和我讨论内容的看法，以及她们如何管理时间，为更高层次的工作腾出空间。

I'm here with Gabriela Spadolizano and Jennifer Long, two mid level leaders here at Harvard Business Publishing. Gabriela is our director of quality assurance and release manager, and Jen is our director of learning design. They've learned a lot about how to let go over the years, but they both still grapple with it day to day. I know Jen well and Gabriela less well, but I know they're both really thoughtful and effective managers. So I was curious to get their takes on what Leah and I discussed and to learn how they manage making space for higher level work.

加布里埃拉、珍妮弗，非常感谢你们的到来。

Gabriela, Jen, thanks so much for being here.

谢谢，艾米。

Thanks, Amy.

谢谢，我很高兴能来到这里。

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

珍妮弗，最近有没有一次你不得不克制自己，不去深入细节？因为你清楚那已经不是你的职责了。

So, Jen, describe a moment recently when you had to, you know, restrain yourself from getting into the weeds? Because you knew it wasn't your job anymore.

稍等一下。事情还挺多的。我正在一个矩阵团队中工作，我们正在设计一个学习项目。这个过程涉及很多阶段：先设计体验，然后添加内容，再编辑内容。我负责审核所有这些部分。

Just one moment. There are quite a few. So I am working on a a matrix team, and we are designing a learning program. And there's lots of stages of design and development, sort of designing the experience and then adding the content and then editing the content. I'm on the hook to review all of it.

这周我发现自己在修改一个视频脚本，甚至在修改具体的文字。我意识到自己越界了，浪费了时间在这上面。我们团队里有其他非常出色的人，他们比我更擅长这项工作，本该由他们来做，而我应该去做别的事。这种情况时有发生，我会不自觉地陷进去，然后才意识到自己在做这些，必须强迫自己抽身出来。

And so I found myself this week editing a video script, editing the actual words. I realized I'm out of my lane here, and I'm spending time on this. And we've got other really brilliant people who are actually better at this than I am, who could be doing it and I should be doing other things. It happens. I sort of fall into it, and then I realize I'm doing it and have to have to pull myself out.

是的。那你怎么说，加布里埃拉？

Yeah. What about you, Gabriela?

实际上，我并没有害怕失去控制或非要按自己的方式做的问题。我是个技术经理，长期从事测试工作。有时候我会检查下属写的代码，总会不自觉地想按自己的方式来做。但后来我意识到，他们现在都掌握了所有新工具。我真正的恐惧是追求最好，总以为最好的就是我自己的方式。

Actually, I don't have the problem of fear to lose the control or wanted to do in my way. I'm a technical manager, I've done testing a long time. And when I look at sometimes I check the code of what my people are doing, I'm tending to do it in my own way. But then you realize that they know now all the new tools. The fear that I have is wanting the best, and I'm tending to think that the best is my best.

这就是问题所在。因为我们思维方式不同，这些年来我总结的经验是：试着理解这个人思考的逻辑。几年前，有个人告诉我一件事，给了我重要启发：她完全用了一种截然不同的方法。我当时特别焦虑，总觉得最后一定会出错。嗯。

That's the problem. And because we are wired differently, I think what I find in the experience over the years is try to understand the train of thought of this person. One important lesson that one person reported to me a few years ago gave me is that she did a completely different, completely different. And I was so stressed out because I was sure that at the end, it would be wrong. Mhmm.

那时我干脆说，算了，肯定会出错，肯定会出错，我还是说出来吧，我还有别的事要做。

And what I did at that point, I just say, forget it. It's gonna be wrong. It's be wrong. I'm gonna tell it. I have other thing to do.

于是我退后一步，觉得他没救了。但当我看到他确实在那里工作，便问她解释一下她的策略，然后我才意识到，没错，这方法很有效。我们搞定了。这就是你觉得自己可能需要一些空间的时刻。

So I actually stepped back thinking that he was hopeless. And then when I see that actually he worked there and I ask her to explain what was her strategy, And then I realized, yeah. It works fine. We are done. So that's what the moment that you think maybe you had to give us some space.

是的，但确实会发生一些事，有一种情感上的拉扯让你想要参与进去，对吧？珍，你正在点头。

Yeah. But there's something that happens. There's a kind of an emotional tug to get involved. Right? Jen, you're nodding your head.

你知道我是什么意思。

You know you know what I mean.

嗯，你刚才说的让我很有共鸣，因为我不得不接受这样一个现实：也许我的想法并不总是

Well, what you were saying was resonating with me because I've had to come to terms with this realization that maybe my ideas aren't always the

最好的。嗯。

best. Mhmm.

而且还有这个这个

And and there's this this

不，珍。它们总是，总是最好的。

No, Jen. They're always the always the best.

但有一个有趣的动态，我觉得在我的角色中，我是愿景的守护者。比如，我拥有愿景。加布里埃拉，你刚才也提到，做到极致的状态。我心中有一个高层次的愿景，知道它应该是什么样子，也知道我会怎么做。

But there's this interesting dynamic I I find where in my role, I'm a a keeper of the vision. Like, I have the vision. And Gabriela, you were saying of like, the very best it can be. I have the vision of what I think it should be at high level. And I know how I would do it.

但挑战不在于告诉别人该怎么做，而在于让他们认同这个愿景。情感上的难点在于，当你不确定他们是否能达成目标时。嗯？你知道吗？或者我们觉得愿景明明在这里，但我们却有点偏左了，或者没真正触及到它。

But the challenge is not telling people how to do it, but getting them locked in on the vision. And the emotional piece is is just what you know, is when you're not sure they're gonna get there. Mhmm. You know? Or we feel like I feel like the vision is here and we're kinda going over to the left or, you know, we're kinda not hitting it.

这很难。很难把这种抽象的愿景，转化为每个人都能以自己的方式执行的具体行动。

And that's hard. It's hard to hold this sort of abstract vision and turn it into something concrete that people can execute in their own way.

是的。但你提到了一个非常关键的点：始终聚焦于‘做什么’，而不是‘怎么做’。最终成果应该是什么？需求是什么？

Yeah. But you touch a very good point. Always concentrate on the what and not the how. What need to be the final outcome? What are the requirement?

成功的标准是什么？在这一点上，‘怎么做’并不重要。

What are the criteria of success? The how doesn't matter at that point.

这引出了另一个问题：你如何跟踪团队的进展？加布里埃拉，你是怎么做到的，又不会陷得太深？

That sort of takes us into another question, which is how you keep tabs on your team's progress. Gabriela, how do you do it without without kinda getting too deep in?

嗯，我经常用演示的方式。我发现这非常有效。我们会设定一个中期里程碑，用来检查我们离最终目标还有多远。与其让团队成员感到压力，或者由我来检查你们的进度，不如说：‘你们能不能向团队演示一下目前的成果？’

Well, I use a lot of demoing. Mhmm. I found that this is very effective. So we have a intermediate milestone where we wanna check where we are at towards the final outcome. And instead of making intimidated or making me checking on you, let me know what you've done so far, I do, okay, why don't you demo to the group what you've done so far?

还有同伴进行评论或提供反馈。这不仅让我这边显得不那么令人紧张、不那么控制欲强，而且也非常有效，因为我们能获得更多的想法，一起学习。我尽量退后一步，把发言权交给其他人提问，我也会这么做。

And you have the peer making comment or giving feedback. And this is is not only less intimidating, less controlling on my part, but it's also very effective because we get the more idea and we learn all together. And I try to step back. I leave the floor to the other to ask question. I do too.

但演示，我认为至少对于技术性工作来说，你可以在中期里程碑进行，并寻求反馈。

But demoing, I think, is a very, very at least for a technical work, you can do this in intermediate milestone, and you ask for feedback.

对。珍，你的工作技术性没那么强，那你是怎么掌握进度的呢？

Right. And, Jen, your work is a little less technical. So how do you keep tabs?

这确实技术性没那么强，但在掌握进度方面有一些相似之处。我带领一支学习设计师和编辑团队，负责培训材料的开发。我们有时间表和评审周期，因此有一种自动化的评审机制——我会被邀请来评审交付成果。这几乎是自动化的，但它无法深入了解到团队内部真正发生的事情。

It's it's very much less technical, but there's some similarities in how we keep tabs. So I have a team of, learning designers and editors working on training materials. And we have a schedule, and we have a review cycle. So there's sort of an automatic review where I get called in to review deliverables. That's almost automated, but it doesn't get underneath what's really happening on the team.

所以我们有两种方式。一是每周召开团队会议，就像加布里埃拉那样，大家会分享自己的进展、当前状况，以及遇到的挑战，互相帮助。此外，我每周还会与每个人进行一对一的单独会谈，只是简单地关心一下：有没有障碍？是否落后了？

So we have two ways of doing it. One is we have weekly team meetings where much like Gabriela, folks talk about where they are and what's going on, and also what challenges they may be running into where they can help each other. And then I meet with each person individually one on one every week to just check-in. Are there barriers? Are they behind?

最近怎么样？

What's going on?

你就是用这种语言。

And you use that language.

我确实会用这种表达方式。

I absolutely use that language.

你知道吧？他们进来时就得明白，是的，他们确实需要向你汇报。

You know? Come in knowing that Yep. They do have to kinda report to you

是的，没错。

Yes. Yes.

是的，关注他们的进展。

Yep. On on their progress.

而且我知道我们该达到什么程度。

And and I have a sense of where we need to be.

所以，珍，你有没有收到过反馈，说你管得太细了？

So have you ever gotten feedback, Jen, that you were micromanaging?

我不确定有人当面这么跟我说过。但我确实从同行那里收到过反馈，说我可能在其他职能领域踩了别人的脚，比如我的编辑朋友们。所以我现在学会了一点：如果我提了意见，我会说，‘这是我个人的看法，还是以编辑为准。’所以我得学会退让。

I'm not sure anyone said it to my face. I have gotten feedback from peers that I might be stepping on toes in other functions like my editor friends. And so I've learned if I put a comment, I'm like, this is what I think defer to editor. You know? So I have got be defer

永远都听编辑的吗？是的，永远都听。加布里埃拉，你呢？

to the editor. Always? Yeah. Always. What about you, Gabriela?

你有没有遇到过任何

Do you have you with any

情况？珍说得对，人们通常不会直接告诉你你在做什么。你需要从字里行间去揣摩。其中一个让我意识到自己可能插手太多的信号，就是当人们开始变得消极，他们希望我事无巨细地喂给他们。

case? Jennifer is right that people don't tend to tell you explicitly that you're doing. So you need to read behind the line. And one of the sign that tells me that I'm maybe stepping too much is when people started to be disengaged and they they want me to spoon feed it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当我清楚地知道这些人有能力完成任务，但他们却只是看着我，期待我出手，这对我来说就是一个信号——他们认为，‘好吧，加布里埃拉会插手的。’所以我就让他们自己来。这是一种被动的依赖。当我看到这种情况时，

When I know I know that the people are capable to do it, but just look at me and they want and it's for me, it's a sign that they expect because they see me stepping in. They say, okay, Gabriela step in. So, I let them step in. And it's a kind of a passive. And and I see when I see this,

我意识到，不，我不该这么做，因为我知道这些人是有能力的。对，你提到的‘消极’这一点，我之前没想过，直到你这么说。但在我们最近的一个项目中，我和我的同事试图帮助开发人员更快地开展这些工作。于是我们做了大量前期工作，列出了主题，研究了所有资料，甚至为他们起草了学习目标。

I realize, no, I shouldn't because I know that these people are capable. Right. Your point about disengaging too, I hadn't thought about this until you said that. But there was a point in our most recent project where my peers and I were trying to help our developers get a jump on these activities. And so what we did is we kind of did the legwork, and we outlined the topics, and we researched all the sources for them, and we even gave gave them draft learning objectives.

在我们心中，在我看来，我们是在给他们一个领先的优势。但他们却感觉不到归属感。

And in our minds, in my mind, we were giving them a head start. But to them, they didn't feel ownership.

所以

And so

这是一次教训。那很可能是一种微观管理。而他们反馈的方式并不是说‘你在微观管理’，而是说‘我们感觉不到创意上的自主权’，对吧？

that was a learning. That that probably was micromanagement. And they the way it came back wasn't, you're micromanaging. It was, we don't feel like we have creative ownership. Right?

因此，这或许是另一个词

And so that's perhaps another word

对。

Right.

来形容微观管理。我们以为自己在帮忙，但实际上是在喂饭。这确实会让人们失去参与感。

For micromanaging. We thought we were helping, but we were spoon feeding. That does cause people to disengage.

是的。Leah 有一个有趣的建议，就是对你的日程进行一次审计，确保你没有参加太多重叠的会议。这是一种防止自己陷得太深的检查方式。你们中有谁做过这种日程审计吗？

Yeah. So Leah had this interesting tip about doing a kind of an audit of your calendar to make sure you're not in too many overlapping meetings. This is a check on getting too deep into the details. Has either of

Jen，你做过这种日程审计吗？我试过，我真的试过。当我听到这个建议时，我心里顿时涌起一阵焦虑：哦，我又一次真的创造了价值吗？然后我想起，Amy，你曾说过：‘我在那次会议中真的有贡献吗？'

you ever done that, that calendar audit, Jen? I I have tried. I have tried. And when I heard that when I listened to that, it gave me sort of this moan of angst about, oh, And once again, am I adding value? And then I think, Amy, you made the comment of did I add value in that meeting?

现在我会问自己这个问题。但我必须承认，我有点害怕错过（FOMO）。如果我不在场，是不是就会错过什么？如果我不在场，我就不会知道所有事情。而如果我不知道所有事，这让我想到，Leah 曾讲过一个关于放手的故事，但同时她也承受着上司要求她掌握每一个细节的压力。

And now I'm asking myself that question. But I have to confess to a little fear of FOMO. Like, if I'm not there right? If a fear of miss if I if I'm not there, I'm not gonna know everything. And if I don't know everything mean, this gets to also I think Leah told a story about letting go a little bit, but also having pressure from her boss to be on top of the details.

中低层管理。是的。

A low mid level management. Yeah.

所以，就是这样，好吧，我可能根本不需要参加这个会议，而且即使去了，我也很可能一边开会一边做别的事。但如果我不去，老板问起某件事，我却一无所知

And so there's that, like, well, okay. I probably don't have to go to this meeting, and I'm probably gonna be multitasking when I'm there. But if I'm not there and my boss asks me about something and I don't know it

你可以总是说，我会去查一下，然后回复你。

Well, you can always say I'll find out and get back to you.

这倒是真的。

This is true.

哦，我发现了一个很有趣的现象，这些是审计内容。我意识到，潜意识里我确实这么做过。现在，有时候我的下属会问我：‘你能来参加这次会议吗？我需要你的帮助。’否则，我就说：‘好吧，如果你不邀请我，我就不来。别担心。'

Oh, I found the very interesting, these are the auditing. And I realized that subconsciously, I did do this. And now I'm at the point that sometimes my people ask me, can you be please in this meeting because I need your help? Otherwise, I say, okay, if you don't invite me, I don't come. Don't worry.

你去参加时，团队成员往往会退缩，等着你发言。我会说，如果你希望我来解决分歧，那我就来；否则，默认情况下我就不参加了。

You do it. When you are in the meeting, obviously, the team tend to pull back Right. And wait for you to talk. And I say, if you want me to solve some disagreement, I come. Otherwise, by default, I don't come.

我觉得你提到的‘你的存在如何影响会议的坦诚度’这一点非常重要，因为我们总以为‘这只是我一个人’，‘没什么好怕的’。但你知道吗？你确实会对会议产生影响，你必须意识到这一点，并像你刚才说的那样，坦然接受，加布里埃拉。

I think your point about understanding how your presence affects the candor of a meeting is so important because we all think, you know It's just us. It's just us. There's nothing to be afraid of. Well, you know what? You do have an effect on a meeting, and you gotta recognize it and own it just the way you you said, Gabriela.

对吧？莱亚提到的另一件事我也觉得特别有意思，那就是审计你团队成员的技能，确保他们具备独立完成你所分配工作的能力。你有没有做过这种事？

Right? So the other thing that Leah said that I found so interesting was auditing your team's skills to make sure that they are that the individuals on your team are equipped to take on the work that you are asking them to do independently. Have you ever done that?

当然做过。

Absolutely.

是啊。

Yeah.

经常做。因为当你放手时，并不是非黑即白，也不是一刀切，这取决于每个人的技能和成熟度。有些人需要更多指导，有些人则不需要。所以，你必须清楚谁能信任到什么程度。

All the time. Because when you let go the control, it's not always all or nothing or all the same. It depends on the skill and the maturity of the person. And some people need more guidance than other. So, absolutely, you have to know who you can trust up to certain point.

嗯。这个人需要什么样的指导呢？不是告诉他们怎么做，而是在他们卡住时给予指导。

Mhmm. And what kind of guidance this person need. Not tell them how to do it, but guidance when they're stuck.

在我的团队里，我有一些技能差异很大的人，因此也有机会让他们配对合作。比如，我有一位技术非常出色、对人工智能非常感兴趣、热衷于在这一领域突破边界的人，让他和一位在传统设计方面更有天赋的人搭档，能帮助他们互相学习。

And on my team, I have people with really different skill sets. So there's this opportunity to also pair people. If I I have somebody who's very technically gifted, very interested in AI, very interested in sort of pushing the envelope in that area. So pairing that person with someone who may be, more gifted in traditional design really helps them learn from each other.

嗯。

Mhmm.

实际上，我也从他们身上学到了很多。我的团队里有些人某些方面的能力比我强，经验也更丰富，因此我也清楚自己可以在哪些地方依赖他们。

And actually, I learned from them too. I mean, there are people on my team that have better skills than I in in certain areas, more experience in certain areas. And so, knowing that as well where I can lean on them.

那你有没有开始感受到利娅提到的那种解脱感？

So have you started feeling that sense of relief that Leah mentioned?

有时有，有些日子有，但有时我会感到内疚，因为我没有深入细节。

Sometimes. Some days. And then sometimes I feel guilty because I'm not in the details.

天啊，你知道吗？中层管理就是这样。

Oh my gosh. You know? Middle mid level management.

中层管理，你真的会觉得你什么都没做。

And mid level management. You actually feel doing anything.

我知道，是的，我知道，我知道。你有感到任何解脱吗？

I know. Yes. I know. I know. Do you feel any relief?

当然有。当我的团队主动承担责任时，这也有助于改善我和他们的关系，这比仅仅当一个控制者让我更有成就感。

Oh, absolutely. When my team take ownership, it help also the relationship, my relationship with them. And it's more rewarding for me than be just the controller.

我认为这以最美好的方式让人感到谦卑。你不觉得吗？

It's humbling in the best possible way, I think. Don't you?

你教会了人们谦卑。确实如此，那种谦逊或意识到你并非无所不知。你看，这正是

You teach humility. Absolutely. The humility or understanding that you don't know everything. See, that to

我感到解脱的原因。是的。

me is where the sense of relief comes from. Yes.

是的，不必什么都懂，这真是一种解脱，不是吗？

Yes. It's a relief not to have to know everything, isn't it?

确实如此。阿门。谢谢你们两位。你们表现得非常好，我学到了很多。能更深入了解你们，我感到非常高兴，加布里埃拉。

It sure is. Amen. Thank you both. You've been great, and I really learned. And I'm so happy to get to know you better, Gabriela.

谢谢。珍，和你在一起的时光让我感到非常愉快。如果你想了解更多关于如何完成最重要工作的建议，请查阅《哈佛商业评论》的《中层管理者必读的十篇文章》。这本书汇集了我们关于赢得支持、建立合作关系和培养人才的最佳文章。

Thank you. And I love being in a room with you, Jen. So this has been fun. For more advice on getting your most important work done, check out HBR's HBR's 10 must reads for mid level managers. The book's a collection of the best articles we've published on winning buy in, forming partnerships, and developing talent.

《职场女性》的编辑和制作团队包括阿曼达·柯西、玛琳·霍赫、蒂娜·托比·麦克、罗布·艾克哈特、伊恩·福克斯和汉娜·贝茨，本季由汉娜·贝茨担任制作。罗宾·摩尔创作了我们的主题音乐。下周，安德里亚·贝尔克·奥尔森将分享作为中层管理者，如何将执行战略视为拓展自我、展现才华的机会——这不仅仅是专注于执行本身、战术和举措，更要以商业决策的思维，主动从战略层面思考如何推动关键决策。安德里亚和我将讨论在采取任何行动之前应提出哪些问题。

Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Toby Mac, Rob Eckhart, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates, who's producing this season. Robin Moore composed our theme music. Next week, Andrea Belk Olsen explains how as a mid level manager, executing strategy is an opportunity to stretch and shine. And that's not just focusing on execution solely and the tactics and initiatives thereof, but taking more of a business decision mindset and thinking strategically yourself on how to drive key choices. Andrea and I will talk about what questions to ask before taking any action.

我们还会讨论，当你或你的团队对新的总体规划持怀疑态度时，该如何推进。我是艾米·伯恩斯坦。如需与我及节目团队联系，请发送邮件至 women@workathbr.org。

We'll also talk about how to move forward when you or your team are skeptical about the new master plan. I'm Amy Bernstein. Get in touch with me and the rest of the show team by emailing women@workathbr.org.

毕马威通过创造价值来带来改变，例如开发有助于推动并购成功的战略洞察，或将人工智能解决方案融入您的业务以维持竞争优势。毕马威，成就不同。了解更多，请访问 www.kpmg.us/insights。

KPMG makes the difference by creating value, like developing strategic insights that help drive m and a success or embedding AI solutions into your business to sustain competitive advantage. KPMG, make the difference. Learn more at www.kpmg.us/insights.