社交不必是件苦差事

我已经不再称之为‘社交’了。对我来说，‘社交’这个词仍然感觉有点，嗯，让人不舒服，感觉就是交易性质的。它完全是关于你试图从与人交谈中获得什么。而我呢，我觉得我天生就，嗯，对别人很好奇。我喜欢认识人。

I just stopped calling it networking. Like, I the the term networking to me still feels so, like, icky, and it just feels transactional. And it's all about, like, what you're trying to get out of talking to people. Whereas I think I just naturally like like, I'm very curious about other people. I like meeting people.

比如，我喜欢那些你被迫去交际、社交、谈论你正在做什么或者随便聊聊的活动。但我不能称之为‘社交’。如果某个活动被标榜为‘社交活动’，我就，我就去不了。我觉得当它被描述为‘社交’时，说对话的压力太大了，而如果只是去认识某人并进行有趣的对话，感觉就完全不同。

Like, I like those events where you're forced to mingle and be social and talk about whatever you're working on or whatever you feel like. But I cannot call that networking. And if something is, like, billed as a networking event, like, I can't I can't go. I feel like there's so much pressure to say the right things when it's described as networking versus when it's just go meet someone and have an interesting conversation.

带着一定数量的名片离开。

To walk out with x number of business cards.

是的。是的。

Yes. Yes.

然后我把它们堆在桌子上，从来就没处理过。对吧？

That I leave in a pile on my desk that's never been dealt with. Right?

是的。这有点像领英给我的认知失调。我的社交网络越大，我就感觉与它的联系越少。对吧。您正在收听的是《哈佛商业评论》的‘职场女性’节目。

Yeah. It's sort of the kind of cognitive dissonance of LinkedIn for me. Is that the bigger my network gets, the less LinkedIn I feel to it. Right. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review.

我是艾米·伯恩斯坦。

I'm Amy Bernstein.

我是妮可·托雷斯。这位是艾米·加洛。

I'm Nicole Torres. And I'm Amy Gallo.

在本期节目中，我们将讨论如何建立对职业生涯有益的人际关系，同时避免让人感到不适或过于功利。是的，我们还是会称之为‘社交网络构建’。

This episode, we're talking about how to build relationships that benefit our careers in a way that doesn't feel icky or transactional. And, yes, we will be calling it networking.

我们的嘉宾是英格·卡邦。她是威廉与玛丽大学梅森商学院的教授，也是《连接点》一书的作者。她是社交网络领域的专家。和我们一样，她并不热衷于社交活动和交换名片的那一套。但她致力于帮助女性以更有效的方式建立强大的社交网络。

Our guest is Inga Carbone. She's a professor at William and Mary's Mason School of Business, and she's the author of the book Connect the Dots. She's an expert on networks. And like us, she's not really into networking events and the whole business card exchange. But she is into helping women build strong networks in more effective ways.

她目睹了如果我们不这样做会发生的后果。

She's seen what can happen when we don't do that.

我一直觉得，在组织中晋升的人不一定是最有能力的，我常常在一些细微之处看到，他们比我共事的一些女性获得了更多优势。

It always seemed to me that, the people who were rising through the organizations weren't necessarily the most skillful, and I would often see that in small subtle ways, they were getting advantages over some of the women that I worked with.

换句话说，她看到能力较弱的男性因为人脉关系而成为领导者。但她同样也看到女性成为领导者，并想知道这些女性领导者与男性及其他女性有何不同之处。因此，英格和她的研究伙伴罗伯·克罗斯分析了30个组织内的社交网络，总计约16,000人，绘制了人与人之间的联系及其方式。随后，他们采访了数百名女性高管，了解她们的社交网络。英格将在此讨论她们发现的重要性别差异，以及那些

In other words, she saw less competent men becoming leaders because they had connections. But she also saw women becoming leaders, and she wanted to know what these female leaders were doing differently from men and from other women. So Inge and her research partner Rob Cross analyzed networks within 30 organizations, about 16,000 people in total, to map who was connected to whom and how. And then they interviewed hundreds of female executives about their networks. Inga's here to talk about the important gender differences they found and what the women who

在社交网络构建方面取得成功的女性所具有的共同点。

were successful at networking had in common.

哦，这次采访英嘉的就只有妮可和我。艾米·G会在节目稍后回来。英嘉，感谢你加入我们。你好。谢谢邀请。

Oh, and it's just Nicole and I interviewing Inga. Amy G will be back later in the episode. Inga, thanks for joining us. Hi. Thanks for having me.

那么跟我们讲讲你的发现吧。我很好奇一个强大的网络是什么样的。你是如何定义或描述那些真正牢固的联系的？在你的研究中，这具体表现为哪些特征？

So tell us a little bit about what you found. You know, I'm curious what a strong network looks like. So what how do you define or characterize how you have really strong connections? What did that look like in your research?

在我的研究中，一个关键方面是你是否拥有大量我们所谓的跨界关系。这些人不一定与你相似，也不在你经常相处的紧密圈子里——可能是在你的职能部门、单位，甚至朋友圈内——而是分布在组织或行业的不同角落。

Well, in my research, one of the key aspects of that was did you have a lot of what we call boundary spanning relationships? And so these are people who don't necessarily look like you, and they aren't embedded in the close group of people that you spend time with, maybe in your function or your unit or, even among your friendship set, but are there in different pockets of the organization or industry.

所以，仅仅是在许多不同领域拥有大量联系和人脉，这就是强大网络的定义吗？

So is just having a lot of connections and relationships with people in lots of different areas, is that what a strong network is?

强大的网络不仅仅是跨界联系，研究中还发现了其他方面。但跨界是一个重要部分。如果你连接到组织或行业中那些多样化的群体，你就能对你所做的工作、所涉及的问题领域获得略微不同的视角。这些多样化的视角让你更能全面地看待问题，做出更高质量的决策。你还能接触到新的信息。

A strong network is more than just boundary spanning, and there was other aspects of that that emerged from the research. But but boundary spanning is an important part. If you are connecting to those diverse pockets of the organization or the industry, you're getting slightly different perspectives on the work that you're doing, on the problem domains that you're involved with. And those different diverse perspectives make you more able to see a problem holistically, to make a higher quality decision. You also are in touch with new information.

你一直在获取新的视角，所以总能听到新事物。关于这个位置价值的研究可以追溯到几十年前。我们知道，网络中跨界联系更多的人能获得更多工作机会，晋升更快，收入也更高。

You're getting new perspectives all the time, so you're hearing new things. Research goes back, say, decades on the value of this position. And we know that people who have more boundary spanning in in their networks, they get more job opportunities. They get, promoted faster. They make more money.

他们更可能参与创新，更可能被认定为顶尖人才。这在绩效方面是一个巨大的差异化因素。嗯。但根据其他研究，包括我们在这个项目上的一些研究，我知道女性在这个角色上的体验非常不同。

They're more likely to be involved in innovation. They're more likely to be tapped as top talent. It's a big differentiator when it comes to performance. Mhmm. But I know from other research, including some of the research we did on this project, that women experience that role very differently.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这种跨界行为对女性造成的挑战比男性更多，或许这样说更准确——它给女性带来了更多难题。

That this boundary spanning causes more problems, it poses more challenges, maybe is a better way to put it, for women than it does than it seems to for men.

你能帮我们理解一下具体是哪些挑战吗？当然。当然。其中一个

Can you can you just help us understand what some of those challenges are? Sure. Sure. One of the

我们研究中发现的重要现象是这种不真实感。女性会这样说：以那种主动的方式去接触和联系新朋友感觉不太对。她们觉得自己在利用别人，显得很有心机。其他人的研究也表明，当我们审视建立人脉的动机时，很难认为自己完全是出于利他目的，尤其是在职业领域。我们有时会觉得，这么做一定是非常自私或带有操纵性的。

big things that came out in our research was this feeling of inauthenticity. Women were saying things like, well, being proactive in that way, sort of reaching out and connecting with new people sort of felt wrong. They felt like they were using people and they were being manipulative. There's other research that other people have done that says when we sort of look at the reasons why we network, it's sometimes very hard for us to think that we're doing it out of altruistic reasons, especially in the professional realm. We sometimes think, well, we must be doing it to be very selfish or very manipulative.

对吧？我只是想联系某人以从他们那里获取某些东西。问题是，如果我们让关系随波逐流、自然发展，我们往往会和相似的人相处。而对女性来说，这是一个很大的劣势。所以，那种感觉不对、像是在利用别人的情绪，我认为在女性身上被放大了。

Right? I just want to connect with somebody to get something from them. The problem is that if we let relationships drift and just emerge organically, we tend to hang out with people who are like us. And for women, that's a big disadvantage. So probably some of the feelings about it feeling wrong and feeling like you're using people, I think, were heightened for women.

我怀疑，这与我们施加给自己的高度关系导向的压力有很大关系。我认为还有一种打扰别人的感觉。我从很多女性那里听到过这种说法：我不想打扰任何人。我不想，你知道，提议一起去喝咖啡，或者聊一聊、开个会。

And that, I suspect, has a lot to do with the pressure we put on ourselves to be very relational. I think there was also a feeling of bothering people. I heard that from a lot of women. I don't want to bother anybody. I don't want to, you know, suggest we get to coffee, you know, or have a chat or have a meeting.

她们会这样说，你知道，我就是不想——不想打扰他们。

They would talk about, you know, I just don't want to I don't want to bother them.

我只是好奇。嗯。你有没有遇到过这样的女性故事，她们有那些恐惧或担忧，但最终克服了并成为了更好的社交者？

I'm just curious, though. Mhmm. Did you have any stories where there were women like that with those fears or concerns and they overcame that and became better networkers?

我确实和一位女性谈过，她说在她的职业生涯中有一个时刻，就像我在较低层级看到的许多其他女性一样，她们非常喜欢群体活动。她们会和同一群人社交，下班后一起出去玩，在与人建立联系时确实没有太跳出自己的舒适区。她说，当我回顾职业生涯早期时，我正是这样做的。她说她后来意识到，那是在她看到自己被错过一次晋升机会时，她需要改变自己的做事方式。是的。

I did talk to one woman who said that she had a moment in her career where, like a lot of the other women that I saw at lower levels, who really liked hanging out in groups. They would socialize with sort of the same people, they'd go after work and hang out, and really didn't stretch too far out of their comfort zone when it came to the people that they were connecting with. And she said, when I look back on the earlier part of my career, that is exactly what I did. And she said she realized at one point, and it was when she saw some herself passed over for a promotion, that she needed to change the way she was doing things. Yeah.

然后她变得非常深思熟虑和策略性。她仍然有好朋友，也保留了很多那些朋友。但在如何更有策略地构建她的社交网络以及如何促进网络中的互动方面，这让她提升到了下一个层次。

And and then she got very thoughtful and strategic about it. And she still had good friends, and she still kept a lot of those those friends. But in terms of being more thoughtful and more strategic about how she was building her network and how she was facilitating interactions in that network, that was what took her to the next level.

是的。我总是对那些能改变你思维或迫使你采取不同行动的关键点感到好奇。

Yeah. I'm always curious about those points where, you know, something will change your thinking or force you to to act differently.

嗯。嗯。所以你也说过，擅长社交的女性效率很高。嗯。

Mhmm. Mhmm. So you've also said that women who do a good job of networking are efficient. Mhmm.

什么

What do

意思？

you mean by that?

是的。是的。这涉及到我的合作者罗伯·克罗斯关于协作效率的一些研究。它基于这样一个理念：我们在工作中不断进行协作。而他的研究发现，我们常常处于协作过载的状态。

Yeah. Yeah. So this is delving into some of the work of my collaborator, Rob Cross, around collaborative efficiency. And it's based on this idea that we are constantly collaborating at work. And his research has uncovered that we are often on collaborative overload.

学会如何在这些互动中提高效率，让我们的关系网络支持我们而不是拖累我们，这一点非常重要。当你问人们会向谁寻求建议时，女性更可能被寻求建议，但她们自己却较少寻求建议。这使得她们更容易陷入协作过载的风险。对吧？很多人会向她们求助，请她们帮忙处理事情，获取信息和建议。

And learning how to have efficiency in those interactions so that our network supports us and doesn't drag us down is very important. When you ask people who do you seek for advice, women were much more likely to be sought for advice, but they were less likely to seek advice. So that puts them at risk for collaborative overload. Right? A lot of people are asking them for favors and to help them out with things and to give them information and advice about stuff.

几乎我采访的每一位女性，当我问她们拒绝别人占用时间的请求是否有负面影响时，她们都说，我会感到内疚。但没有一个男性这么说。哇。是的。这是一个巨大的差异。

Almost every woman I interviewed, when I asked them if there was a downside to saying no to a request for their time, said, I'd feel bad. And no man said that. Wow. Yeah. It was a huge difference.

那么你能告诉我们那些协作良好、效率高的女性是怎样的吗？她们做了什么？她们有什么突出之处？

So can you tell us about the women who collaborated well, who were efficient collaborators? What did they do? What made them stand out?

嗯，一个很大的方面是她们如何构建协作框架。不止一位女性，但有一位女性说得非常清楚，她说，我学会了当我答应一件事，就意味着我在拒绝另一件事。当她开始用这个框架来构建她的回应时，她能够做出更好的决定。所以她能够在真正觉得这件事符合她的职业目标时说“是”，并能够说“不”或将其委派出去。这是一个巨大的区别。

Well, a big thing was how they framed collaboration. So more than one woman, but one woman said it really clearly when she said, I have learned that when I say yes to one thing, it means I'm saying no to something else. And when she started to frame her responses in that framework, she was able to make better decisions. So she was able to say yes when she really felt that this would be something that would align with her professional objectives and to be able to say no and to delegate it out. That was a huge differentiator.

成功的女性还会为她们的一天安排更多的结构，她们不会一直处于被动反应模式。例如，她们会留出时间进行反思。这是非常重要的时间。这是你制定策略、构想新事物、管理你的人脉网络以及联系可能失去联系的关系的时候。而女性在这方面做得并不那么好。

Successful women also put a lot more structure in their day, they weren't constantly in reactive mode. They set aside, for instance, time for reflection. And that's really important time. That's the time when you're strategizing, when you're envisioning new things, when you're managing your network and and, reaching out to relationships that you've maybe lost contact with. And women were just not as good at that.

但成功的女性会投入时间进行反思。她们更擅长播种关系，即在真正需要建立关系之前很久就与人建立联系。这导致当她们真正需要帮助或想向他人提出请求，并建议可能有更合适的人选可以交谈时，她们就有这些资源可用。这这

But the successful women put in that time for reflection. They were better at seeding relationships, so connecting with people long in advance of actually needing a relationship. And that led to when actually needed help or they wanted to take a request to them and and suggest that somebody else might be a better person to talk to. They had those available to them. It it

听起来，敏捷性——这是您在成功的女性社交者身上注意到的另一个特质——与效率这个概念有关。请和我们谈谈敏捷性。

sounds as if nimbleness, another of the traits that you've noticed in successful female networkers, is connected to this idea of efficiency. Talk to us about nimbleness.

是的，是的。事实证明，女性比男性更倾向于与其他女性建立并维持关系。不仅如此，女性的关系随着时间的推移会变得更牢固、更互惠。相比之下，男性通常会更频繁地进出关系，建立新关系，有更多我们所谓的网络流动，这不是指那些最亲近的核心人群——那些真正值得信赖的、好比个人董事会成员的人——而是指生活中其他大约100个人。

Yeah. Yeah. It turns out that women are more likely to form and stay in relationships with other women than are men likely to stay with relationships with men. Not only that, but the women's relationships get stronger and more mutual over time. Compare that to a man who more typically, will move in and out of relationships, build up new relationships, has a lot more what we call network churn, which is not a turnover of those core closest people to you, the ones that are really your trusted sort of, you know, personal board of directors kind of thing, but the, you know, other 100 people in your life.

我们发现，女性更倾向于保持网络中相同的人，而男性则在不断更换这些网络。这导致了敏捷性。如果你从事的项目要求你非常敏捷、灵活和响应迅速，而你的网络又非常动态，同时你学会了如何让人进出你的活跃网络，你就能更好地应对。所以，这种粘性阻碍了女性的敏捷性。当然，粘性也有积极的一面。

And we found that women were much more likely to keep the same people in those networks, whereas men were churning those networks. And that's what leads to nimbleness. And if you're working on projects that require you to be really nimble and really agile and really responsive, if you've got a network that's very dynamic at the same time where you're learning how to move people in and out of your active network, you're gonna be able to respond better. So the stickiness was preventing women from being nimble. Now now there's a positive side to the stickiness too.

积极的一面是，女性在建立强大的外部网络方面比男性强得多。这是一个真正的优势，有助于为她们打开工作机会。我知道一些组织正在利用这一点，创建跨组织的导师机会，这对女性来说非常棒。其他组织也通过启动校友网络来利用这一点，让你能够将自己的个人品牌作为组织推广出去。你可以将其用作招聘工具。

The positive side was that women were much better than men at building strong external networks. That's a real strength, and it helps them opens them up for job opportunities. I know some organizations are taking advantage of this and are creating interorganizational mentorship opportunities, which has been fabulous for women. And other organizations are also leveraging this by by starting up alumni networks where you're able to get your personal brand out there as an organization. You can use it as a recruitment tool.

人们来回跳槽。但关于敏捷性，您说得完全正确，这与男性倾向于拥有的更灵活、动态的形式以及女性倾向于拥有的更粘性、更静态的形式有很大关系。

People boomerang it back and forth. But you're absolutely right about the nimbleness, and it has a lot to do with the more agile dynamic form that men tend to have and the stickier, I guess, more static version that women tend to have.

您如何，嗯，尊重地淡化旧的联系？

How do you, you know, respectfully deemphasize the old connections?

比如，您怎么……什么是什么

Like, how do you what is what

这是一种不那么糟糕的断绝关系的方式吗？你不想对某人玩消失。对吧？

is an an an a not horrible way to cut ties? You don't want to ghost someone. Right?

不，不。这完全不是我的意思。我不是在说，比如，你知道，对某人玩消失，或者不接电话，或者走走廊的另一条路以避免碰到某人。我认为更多的是要开放地去结识新朋友。

No. No. And and that's not at all what I mean. I'm not talking about, like, you know, saying, yeah, ghosting someone or or not picking up the phone or taking the other pathway down the hallway so you don't have to bump into somebody. I think it's more about being open to meeting new people.

避免那种非常舒适的倾向，即总想和你一直一起做事的人一起行动。例如，总是向同样的人寻求建议，或者参加同样的午餐或同样的下班后活动。我认为这更多是伸出手去拥抱新事物，而不是拒绝旧事物。所以

Avoiding that really comfortable tendency of wanting to do things with the people that you've always been doing stuff with. So going to the same people for advice, for instance, or going to the same sorts of lunches or the same after hours events. I think it's more reaching out and embracing the new than it is sort of rejecting the old. So

正如你提到的，你知道，灵活的网络，更多的流动带来更大的能量。你能稍微谈谈，你知道，能量如何融入一个强大的人际网络吗？你看到的强大女性社交者在能量方面展现了什么。

as you mentioned, you know, nimble networks, more churn leads to greater energy. Can you just talk a little bit about, you know, how energy fits into Sure. Having a good strong network? What you saw strong female networkers put out there in terms of their energy.

是的，是的。实际上，关于激发能量有一些非常好的消息。这再次参考了罗伯的一些研究。但他过去二十年一直在研究激励者，他发现人们认为你是一个在与你交谈后让我感到充满活力和兴奋的人的程度。

Yeah. Yeah. And actually, there's some really good news about energizing. So and this is, again, referencing some of Rob's research. But he's taken a look at energizers over the last two decades, and he's found that the extent to which people say that you are a person who leaves me energized and excited after talking with you.

对吧？所以，一个你想与之头脑风暴的人，一个你想与之创新的人，一个真正让你对自己的工作感到兴奋的人。越多的人认为你是这样的人，这比其他任何网络方面的预测力高出四倍。所以，成为那个吸引人们、激励他人的人，对绩效有很强的影响。它之所以对绩效有很强的影响，是因为你在把人才吸引到你身边。

Right? So somebody that you want to brainstorm with, somebody that you want to innovate with, someone who really leaves you excited about your work. The more people identified you as that, that was like a four times a higher predictor of any other network aspect. So being that person who pulls people towards you, who energizes other people, has a strong effect on performance. And the reason it has a strong effect on performance is because you're pulling talent towards you.

你在把想法吸引到你身边。

You're pulling ideas towards you.

但你是怎么做到的？你如何散发出那种能量，吸引人们带着他们的想法和才华靠近你？就是要具有吸引力。要有吸引力。

But how do you do that? How do you how do you give off that kind of energy to bring people toward you with their ideas and their talent? Just be magnetic. Be magnetic.

只管去做。这能有多难呢？对吧？嗯，其中一个简单的方面就是展现积极性，对吧？

Just do it. It's not how tough could it be? Right? Well, one of the easy aspects of it is just to, you know, exhibit positivity. Right?

我们我们我们喜欢积极的人，你知道，那种对我们微笑之类的人。但事实证明，男性和女性需要的东西略有不同。这可能解释了我们的一个发现：在我们研究的所有这些网络中，女性更有可能被认定为能激励他人。她们也更容易成为让他人失去活力的人。当我们深入研究并通过访谈试图理解人们的意思，他们询问激励时想要什么，我们发现了两种截然不同的东西。

We we we like people who are positive, you know, sort of smile at us and and do things like that. But it turns out that men and women need slightly different things. And this might explain a finding that we had that across all these networks that we looked at, women were more likely to be identified as energizing. They were also more likely to be the people who were de energizing others. When we dug into this and we tried, through the interviews, tried to understand what people meant, what they wanted when they were asking about energizing, we found two very different things.

两种人，但更多的是男性，他们说，我想要一个真正懂行的人，能够指出我所说的漏洞，能运用他们的专业知识并展示他们在做什么。一个人，我们称之为具有高度基于能力的信任，就像我相信这个人知道他们在说什么，这让我很兴奋他们在听我说。所以这对男性和女性都很重要，但对男性重要得多。而对女性重要的是，感觉有人关心她们所说的话。一位非常高层的女性，一家大公司的CEO对我说，她转向她的人际网络，因为他们会说，没关系。

Both people, but more so men, were saying that, I want somebody who's going to be you know, really knows what they're talking about, will be able to poke holes in what I'm saying, can pull in their expertise and show me what they're doing. A person who, you know, we refer to as having a lot of competence based trust, like I trust this person knows what they're talking about, and that makes me excited that they're listening to me. So that was important to both men and women, but far more important to men. And what was important to women was having a feeling that somebody cared about what they were saying. One woman, very high level woman, CEO of a large company, said to me, she turns to her network, because they say, it's okay.

你做得很好。而且她们需要那种反馈。我们称之为更多基于善意的信任或这种关怀的理念。当你试图向男性和女性传达激励时，困境就出现了。对吧？

You're doing good. And and they need that kind of feedback. And we call that more benevolence based trust or this idea of caring. The bind comes when you're trying to communicate being energizing to men and women. Right?

所以他们都希望你能力强，而女性也非常重要的一点是你要有爱心。但男性对你是否有爱心稍微不那么关心，据说是为了激励。但我我相信你的听众都熟悉女性一直在挣扎的可亲与能力之间的权衡。所以如果她们表现出过多的温暖和积极性，可能会被视为能力较差。而如果她们不表现出任何温暖和积极性，那么她们通常会被认为是让人失去活力的。

So both of them want you to be competent, and the women also very important that you be caring. But the men are a little less concerned with you being caring, supposedly, for energizing. But I I'm sure your listeners are familiar with the trade off between being likable and being competent that women struggle with all the time. So if they project a little too much warmth and positivity, they may be viewed as less competent. And if they don't project any warmth and positivity, then they're often, identified as de energizing.

所以这是一条非常微妙的界线。成功的女性对此非常有策略。她们会说，我要去进行一次互动。如果是和男性，我知道我必须以我的能力为主导，提供证据，讲述她们有类似经历的时候。一个非常好、不具威胁性的方法是说，嗯，这是我的经验。

So it's a very tricky line. So the successful women were very strategic about it. So they would say, I'm gonna go into an interaction. And if it's with a man, I know that I have to lead with my competence, give evidence, tell of times where they had a similar experience. And a very good, nonthreatening way to do that is saying, well, here's my experience.

我不确定这对你是否相关，但这是我处理类似问题时的经验。以下是我的一些发现，可能对你有用。当她们与女性互动时，需要以温暖为主导。她们必须走一条非常微妙的路线，既要确保自己显得关怀备至，因为她们不想打破性别刻板印象，避免因不够友善而遭到反弹。但同时，她们也必须展现自己的能力，并且需要根据受众调整这一点，而男性似乎不需要在这方面做太多调整。

I don't know if it would be relevant to you, but here's when I dealt with a similar issue. Here's some findings that I had that might be useful to you. When they're interacting with women, they need to lead with the warmth. And they have to walk this very tricky line between being sure that they come off as caring because would they don't wanna blow up the gender stereotype and get the backlash of not being nice enough. But they also have to put forward their competence, and they have to adjust that for their audience in a way that men seem not to have to do as much.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么，如果你要给我建议，如何建立跨越边界的关系，你会告诉我怎么做？我该如何开始？

So if you were going to give me advice on how to form relationships that were boundary spanning, what would you tell me to do? How would I start that?

所以当我告诉人们该怎么做时，我首先会审视他们现有的人际网络。有时候，仅此一点就足以让人震惊，当他们开始意识到，哇，我的人际网络中所有人都是白人，二十多岁，来自，你知道，三所不同的大学之类的。但我鼓励人们审视自己的网络，然后开始寻找人们之间的相似之处。以及哪里存在空白？

So when I do tell people what to do about that, I start by taking a look at who's already in their network. And sometimes that alone can be a shock to people when they start to realize like, wow. Everyone in my network is white and in their twenties and, you know, comes from, you know, three different colleges or something like that. But I encourage people to take a look at their network and then start to look at the similarities among people. And where are there gaps?

哪里存在代表性不足？你的网络中缺少什么？年龄、层级。随着人们在组织中职位升高，他们常常缺少与组织中较低层级人员的联系。当你不太清楚组织中不同部分的人员情况时，这是一个很大的空白。

Where is there underrepresentation? What are you missing in your network? Age, hierarchy. As people get higher in the organization, they often miss having connections with people lower in the organization. And that's a big gap when you're not sure what's going on for people at different parts of your organization.

而当你职位较低时，你也希望确保与高层有联系。所以你需要有纵向的跨越，也需要有横向的跨越。

And when you're lower, you wanna make sure that you have higher as well. So you wanna have vertical spanning. You wanna have horizontal spanning.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以你的下一步是弄清楚，好吧，我该如何让自己处于一个能与帮助填补这些空白的人互动的环境中？有时你确实会知道某个职位甚至某个具体的人，但通常不会。我非常反对那种阿谀奉承、给人留下利用印象的社交方式。我鼓励人们建立真实真诚的关系，但如果你等待它们自发发生，它们只会出现在你经常去的地方。

So now your next step is to figure out, okay. How can I put myself in a position where I'll be interacting with people who can help fill those gaps? Sometimes you'll actually know a role or maybe even a specific person, but often you don't. I I'm very against the the whole schmoozing, using kind of impression of networking. I really encourage people to think about building authentic real relationships, but then if you're waiting for them to occur spontaneously, they're gonna only occur in the places where you tend to be.

嗯。我作为年轻教员时做过最有收获的事情之一，就是加入了一个教员亲子小组，那里的家长——主要是终身教职轨道的母亲们——的孩子都不到五岁。如果我没有加入那个教员亲子小组，我永远不会认识大学里这些不同领域的人。我们是通过陪伴孩子玩耍建立联系的，明白吗？

Mhmm. One of the most rewarding things that I did as a young faculty member was I joined a faculty playgroup, where parents it was mostly mothers of tenure track faculty had kids that were all under five. I would never have met people across my university in these different domains if I had not joined that faculty playgroup. And we were bonding over hanging out with our kids. You know?

然后我们也开始谈论身为终身教职轨道上的女性以及母亲是怎样的体验，因为我们中大多数是女性。我在那里形成了一些非常牢固的关系，不是和所有人，而是和几个人，我想我们之间有一些人际化学反应。

And then we also got to talking about what it's like, and since most of us were women, what it's like to be a woman on tenure track and being a mother. And and then I formed some very strong relationships in there, not with everybody, but with a couple of people who I had, you know, some interpersonal chemistry, I guess, with.

我有一次去参加了高尔夫郊游活动。那里？

I went to a golf outing once. There?

嗯，你

Well, do

喜欢高尔夫吗？不喜欢。但我认识了很多日常圈子以外的人。

you like golf? No. But I met a lot of people outside of my usual day to day.

我我也去了同一个活动。我去了两次。我不会去第三次了。

I I did the same one. I went twice. I will not go to a third.

那就像是一次性的事情。

It was like a one time thing.

嗯，有时候人们会在那种场合因为都讨厌高尔夫而拉近关系，对吧。是的。我的意思是，当有人告诉我他们必须去参加这种社交活动时，我真的会抓狂。你知道吗？他们知道他们需要做更多社交。他们要去参加这个社交活动。

Well, sometimes people all bond over how much they hate golf, right, when they're at those kinds of things. Yeah. I did I mean so, you know, it drives me nuts when people tell me that they're gonna have to go they have to go to this networking You know? They got they know they gotta do more networking. They're gonna go to this networking event.

而且，你知道，这总比没有好，但这真的不是很好地利用你的时间。特别是如果你像我一样内向，想到要准备电梯演讲、在房间里周旋之类的事情，简直就是折磨。你最好选择一个已经符合你兴趣领域的活动。比如和人们一起做点什么，你知道，如果适合的话，可以去做志愿者，加入一个你热爱的非营利组织的董事会，或者为你的行业提供帮助，在委员会或小组中服务，让你有机会与人互动。仅仅去参加一个会议之类的活动是不够的，因为那是一种非常被动的状态。

And, you know, it's better than nothing, but it's really not a great use of your time. And especially if you're an introvert like me, it's torture thinking about, you know, what's my elevator speech and, you know, working the room and stuff like that. You're much, much better off taking an activity that already kind of fits into your areas of interest. Something that has you working with people to do something, you know, volunteering if this is if it fits with you to, you know, be on a board of a nonprofit that you, are are passionate about or helping with your industry, serving on a committee or serving on a panel and have it's something that puts you interacting with people. It's really not enough just to go to a conference or something like that because that's a very receptive kind of state.

这不是一种高度互动的状态，让人们能够互相了解。

It's not a highly interactive state where people get to learn about each other.

英加，这非常非常有帮助。非常感谢你今天抽出时间与我们交谈。

Inga, this was very, very helpful. Thank you so much for taking time to talk to us today.

非常感谢，英加。

Thanks so much, Inga.

谢谢。我真的很享受这次交谈。

Thank you. I really enjoyed it.

我想如果我二十多岁时听英加谈论社交网络，我可能会感到非常反感。整个社交的概念对我来说太可怕了。为了从别人那里得到什么而花时间与他们相处，这感觉就是不对的。随着时间的推移，我意识到这与其说是交易性的——比如将来我需要从这个人那里得到什么——不如说是试图找到我喜欢的人，他们处于与我不同的世界。是的。

I think if I had listened to Inga talk about networking when I was in my twenties, I would have felt sick to my stomach. Like there were the whole idea of networking was so appalling to me. The fact that you would spend time with someone in order to get something from them seemed just wrong. And I think over time, what I've realized is that it's less about it being transactional, like someday I'll need something from this person, and more about just trying to find people I like who are in different worlds that I'm in. Yeah.

如果我专注于对他们保持好奇心，真正与我喜欢的人建立联系，那么这对我来说就更容易接受了。

And if I focus on, like, being curious about them and actually networking with people I like, then it's much more palatable to me.

我完全、完全同意这一点。我就是这样骗自己走进一个满是陌生人的房间的。对吧。

I am totally, totally on the same page as that. I I it's how I trick myself into walking into a room full of people I don't know. Right.

嗯。是的。就在上周，我去了一个酒店里的社交活动。我是去参加一个会议的，我在房间里准备好，然后乘电梯下楼。你知道，活动在二楼，电梯门叮的一声打开，眼前是一个挤满了拿着饮料的人群的房间。

Mhmm. Yeah. I had this moment this past week where I went to a a networking event in a hotel. I was there for a conference, and I, you know, got ready in my room and I went down in the elevator. You know, it was on Floor 2, and then the doors opened and dinged, and it was this room full of people with drinks.

而且非常吵闹。我真的在想，我该怎么按下关门按钮，立刻离开这里？

And it was so loud. And I really I was like, how do I press the closed door button and get out of here immediately?

是啊。

Yeah.

然后我告诉自己，好吧，深呼吸。深呼吸。接着我和某个人对视了——我脸上一定有什么表情，因为她正对着我笑。我心想，好吧，就这样吧。我总能在这里找到一个可能有有趣故事的人。

And then I was like, okay, deep breath. Deep breath. And then I sort of caught eyes with someone who was I must have had a look at my face cause she was laughing at me. And I was like, alright, here I go. I can find one person in here who probably has an interesting story.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我真的找到了一个人，整个时间都在和她交谈。那就是我的应对方式。

And I did find one person and talk to her the whole time. That was my way of dealing.

是的。我以前不得不给自己定规矩，因为我有点社交焦虑，当事情被描述为社交网络时，比如走进去，必须认识某人并开始交谈。我就是做不到你那样，艾米，比如走出电梯，看到一个房间里的人已经在互相交谈，然后试图想出如何插话。所以我会是那种人，走进来，直接去酒吧，整晚都在看手机，假装在看这辈子收到的最重要的邮件。所以我早在我开始参加会议时就意识到，那不是我会认识人的方式。

Yeah. I used to have to give myself rules because I just I had, like, that social anxiety when things were described as networking of going in and, like, having to meet someone and strike up a conversation. I just could not I would not be able to do what you did, Amy, and, like, getting out of an elevator, seeing a room full of people already talking to each other and trying to figure out how I would break into a conversation. So I would be the person, like, who walks in, like, goes straight to the bar, like, is on their phone the whole time and is, like, looking at the most important email I've ever gotten in my life. So I've I, like, realized early on when I started going to conferences that that is not how I meet people.

比如，我在排队买咖啡时认识人，或者

Like, I meet people in line for coffee or

坐在他们旁边。

Sitting next to them.

坐在某人旁边。对我来说，那样开始交谈就容易多了，只是问，比如，你觉得怎么样？或者你来这里做什么？但你觉得

Sitting next to someone. That's so much easier for me to strike up a conversation and just say, like, how are you enjoying things? Or what are you doing here? But where did you think of

刚才那个演讲怎么样？

that last talk?

你觉得

What did you

刚才的演讲怎么样？是的。我开始给自己定规矩，因为以前我参加会议时总是不跟任何人交谈。就像，我会直接离开，然后对自己无法做到这一点感到非常失望。真是个失败者。我觉得自己太失败了。

think of the last talk? Right. And I started giving myself rules because I would go to conferences and not talk to anyone. Like, would just leave, and I would feel so disappointed in myself for not being able to Such a failure. I felt like such a failure.

我害怕回来告诉别人会议的情况，因为是的。你可能会被问到的第一个问题就是你遇到了谁？而我一个人都没遇到。所以我给自己定的一条规则是，当我参加会议，有小组讨论或演讲之类的活动时，结束后我必须走上前去对小组中的某个人说，比如，我觉得那个很棒，或者你能把幻灯片发给我吗？或者我真的很喜欢你所说的内容。

I'd be afraid to come back and tell people about the conference because Yeah. Like a first question you'll get is who did you meet? And I wouldn't have met anyone. So one rule I gave myself was when I go to a conference and there are panels and talks or whatever, I always have to go up to someone on that panel afterwards and either say, like, I thought that was great, or can you send me your slides? Or I really loved what you said.

我在HBR工作。比如，我们应该聊聊。然后，我会给他们我的名片，差不多就这样。但这条规则确实帮助我开始结识人，并让我对自己以及之后所做的事情感觉更好。很有建设性。

I work at HBR. Like, we should talk. And, I'll give them my card and kind of leave it at that. But that rule helped me actually start meeting people and feel better about myself and what I was doing after this. Constructive.

是的。而且我认为这也有助于实现Ingo提到的跨界联系。因为如果我们只待在自己的圈子里，只接触我们共事的人，或者甚至只在行业活动上认识人（我正在做引号手势，因为我讨厌行业活动），但参加会议、听来自不同领域的人演讲并走上前去接触他们的好处是，你能建立那种更广泛的人际网络，这真的很聪明。完全同意。

Yeah. And I think that's also helps with the boundary spanning that Ingo was talking about. Because if we stay within our circle and meet people that we work with or even just meet people at industry events, which I'm doing air quotes because I hate industry event. But the nice thing about going to conferences and hearing people from different worlds talk and going up to them is you get that sort of broader broader network, which is really smart. Totally.

在那里开始对话的方法是思考你刚刚听到的内容并就此展开讨论。那种‘帮我理解’之类的评论很好，因为你知道，我经常在听完后感觉意犹未尽，或者，你知道，我想了解更多，帮我学习更多。而那正是一个很棒的中立起点。是的。你明白吗？

And the way to start a conversation there is to think about what you just heard and start talking about it. The help me understand kind of comment because, you know, I often walk out of those feeling like there's more to what I just heard or, you know, I wanna know more, help me learn more. And that that is kind of great neutral ground. Yeah. You know?

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯，我认为，我认为开始对话时，那些帮助我们作为编辑和记者工作的技能，也正是帮助我们建立人际网络的技能。对吧？就是对他人的好奇心。所以有时候我甚至会问，这是你第一次来旧金山吗？对吧？

Well, I think I think of starting the conversation that it the same skills that help us do our job as editors and journalists is are the same skills that help us network. Right? It's just being curious about another person. So sometimes I'll even say, is this your first time in San Francisco? Right?

甚至不一定非得是关于内容的问题。你知道，有时候就像问，你的衬衫是在哪里买的？你知道，这些都是非常简单的开启普通对话的方式。对我来说，关键在于当你意识到，哦，这就像一场尴尬的初次约会时，如何从中脱身。

It doesn't even have to necessarily be about the content. You know, sometimes it's like, where'd you get your shirt? You know, it's very very simple openings to to regular conversations. The the trick for me is then how do you get out of it when you realize, oh, this is like an awkward first date.

哦，我看到那边有个人我得去打声招呼。嗯。我要去续杯了。是的。

Oh, I see someone over there I need to say hi to. Yeah. I'm gonna go fill my glass. Yes.

是的。好的。你怎么从那些对话中脱身？因为我做不到

Yeah. Okay. How do you get out of those conversations? Because I cannot

我只是紧张地给了

I just stress gave

你两句话。

you two lines.

是的。我用了那些话。我需要去拿个，你知道？或者我会直接说，比如，我需要去洗手间。待会儿见。

Yeah. I used those lines. I need to go get a you know? Or I I will just say, like, I need to use the restroom. I'll see you later.

就像，我真的就保持非常简单。

Like, I really just keep it very simple.

我的意思是，你甚至不需要找借口。你可以说，你知道的，和你聊天很愉快。希望我们能再次相遇。好的。是的。

I mean, you don't even have to make an excuse. You can say, you know, it was great to talk to you. I hope we run run into each other again. Okay. Yeah.

类似这样的话

Something like

我的台词是我得走了，然后我真的就走了。你离开？我必须得走了。哇。

my line is I have to go, and then I actually go. You leave? I have to leave. Wow.

那是你的领域。那不是

That's area for you. That's not a

那不是离开的好时机。在这个领域。

that's not a good time to go. In this area.

是的。是的。你只需走到房间的另一边。这很有趣。好的。

Yeah. Yeah. You just walk to a different part of the room. It's fun. Okay.

因为你想啊，他们会看到你，而且

Because think about it. They'll see you, and

他们会知道

they'll know

你被排除在外了。看到你，但他们通常也知道自己想继续前进。对吧？

you're left out. See you, but they know they wanna move on too usually. Right?

这不是约会。对吧？是的，不是。而且没有人有那种期望。

It's not dating. Right? Yeah. It's not. And and no no one has that expectation.

如果他们真有，你也不必负责

If they do, you're not responsible

对此。

for it.

嗯，和你聊天真开心。我要再去拿杯饮料。

Well, it's so great to talk to you. I'm gonna go get another drink.

和你聊天很愉快。我喜欢这样。回头见。希望我们还能再相遇。

It was great to talk to you. I like that. See you around. See you around. I hope our paths cross again.

天啊。这真是太棒了。

Oh my god. That is so good.

是的。希望我们还能再见面。这样很好。我喜欢这样。我也喜欢我一直很直接地说，我知道我们都想认识更多人。

Yes. Hope our paths cross again. That's good. I like that. I also like I've been very direct and said, I know we both wanna meet more people.

待会儿见。就像，继续保持直接。我的意思是，

I'll see you later. Like, just sort of keep Being direct. I mean,

你知道，事务性对话的好处就在于它们是事务性的。而且他们可能想继续前进，因为事实是，你可能觉得你们在社交上紧紧相依，但很可能只有你一个人这么想。

you know, the the nice thing about transactional conversations is that they're transactional. And they probably wanna move on as the thing is, you may think that you're clinging to each other for, you know, social dear life, but chances are it's only you in that case.

是的。是的。我的意思是，另一个对我有帮助的是在对话中不去想这个人能怎么帮我。对吧？那种感觉让我觉得很恶心。

Yes. Yes. I mean, the other thing I that's helped me is in the conversation not be thinking how can this person help me. Right? Like that that feels so gross to me.

所以我认为更重要的是谁和我，而你不会知道。有时你会遇到一个人，他们听起来很有趣。然后，你知道，五年后，你会想，等等，我在会议上遇到过那个人。他们可能在这里有联系，或者可能出现在你的领英或推特动态中。然后你就能以一种有意义的方式继续互动。

And so I think it's more about who and I and you won't know. Sometimes you'll meet someone and they sound interesting. And, you know, five years later, you're like, wait, I met that person at the conference. They might have a connection here or they might show up in your LinkedIn feed or Twitter feed. And then you're able to sort of continue the interaction in in a meaningful way.

但当时，你知道，当人们坐在那里想着‘她对我有什么用’的时候，那种感觉真的很恶心。

But at the time, like, that's that's the thing when I know when people are sitting there thinking, how can she be useful to me? And it just feels gross.

是的。那么你们对英加关于边界跨越关系的看法有什么想法，尤其是在组织内部？

Yeah. So what did you guys think about what Inga was saying about boundary spanning relationships, especially within the organization?

我觉得那是非常明智的建议，但执行起来很难，因为我们都知道应该跨部门、跨孤岛、跨职能建立联系。然而，你会看着组织结构图说，‘哦，我应该认识那个人’，或者‘我该怎么实际操作呢？’是的，这才是难点。

I thought that was really smart advice, but very hard to execute on because that's we all know we should be connected across departments, silos, functions. And yet, you know, do you look at the org chart and sort of say, oh, I should meet that person or I'm you know, like, how do you actually do it Yeah. Is is the tough thing.

是的。实际上，我正在努力成为那个主动介绍自己的人，比如，‘我们之前没见过面，你叫什么名字？在哪个部门工作？’

Yeah. Introducing myself, actually. I'm trying to get better at being the person to say, like, we haven't met before. Like, what's your name? What department do you work in?

通常这种情况会自然而然地发生，因为有人会说，‘我看到你做了那个演讲，我觉得很棒。’

Usually, that comes up kind of organically because someone is I don't know. They'll say, like, I saw you give that talk. I thought that was great.

然后呢？

And then

我会说，‘哦，你又是谁？’

I'll say, oh, like, who are you again?

是的。你好。

Yeah. Hi.

但我觉得是的。我正在努力尝试主动接近他人，或者更留意身边的人，并在当下打招呼。

But I think it yeah. I'm trying to work on just actually approaching people or being more aware of people who are around me and saying hi in the moment.

是的。我的意思是，这样做的一个真正原因是，不断遇到你从未正式认识的人会非常尴尬，对吧？然后你们会有那种尴尬的“嘿”之类的对话。

Yeah. I mean, one of the real reasons to do that is that it's so uncomfortable to keep running into people you haven't formally met. Right? Then you have those lame Hey. Kind of conversations.

在这里工作了五年半之后，仍然有一些人我从未被正式介绍过，但我每天都见到。我们彼此认识，但从未有过像“你好，我是某某，你是某某，让我们聊聊……”这样的对话。

There are still people after, like, five and a half years of working here who I have never been formally introduced to, but I see every single day. We know each other, but we've just never had, like, a hi. I'm so and so. You're so and so. Let let's talk about You what we are

比如说，好吧。我真是受够了每天都见到你，却连你的名字都不知道。我是妮可。你知道吗？

say, okay. I am so tired of seeing you every single day and not even knowing your name. I'm Nicole. You know?

我喜欢那样。我也喜欢那样。

I like that. I like that too.

我喜欢

I like

那个。任何在听的人，没有人

that. Anyone listening, there's no

在想着你。

one thinking about you.

明天会有很多人跟你打招呼的。

You're gonna have a bunch of people saying hi to you tomorrow.

关键在于，如果你意识到我们都在同一条船上，我们都感到不自在，是的。这样迈出第一步就容易多了。是的，是的。打个招呼吧。

And the thing is you just if you recognize that we're all in the same boat and that we're all uncomfortable Yeah. It makes it so much easier to take the take the first step. Yeah. Yeah. Say hi.

是的。太对了。

Yeah. So true.

那么你认为我们在试图跨越这些界限时应该有多刻意？是不是我们应该对自己说，我需要在财务部门交个朋友，或者我需要认识设计部门的人？

So how intentional do you think we should be in when we're trying to span those boundaries? Is it that you're we should be saying to ourselves, I need to make a friend in finance, or I need to know people in design.

我确实认为我们必须对此有意识。我更倾向于这样想，你知道，也许某天我的报销单会出问题，因此我需要财务部门有人支持我。对吧？不是那样的。我认为更重要的是，我经常与谁互动，了解他们的观点对我有何帮助。

I I do think we have to be intentional about it. I think of it less as, you know, someday there might be an issue with my expense report, and therefore I need someone in finance who has my back. Right? It's not that. I think it's more who am I interacting with regularly and how would it help me to understand their perspective.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？所以如果我在设计方面与某人就我正在处理的某个特定部分进行艰难对话，那么在下一次必须与那个人合作之前，我可能会邀请他们出去喝杯咖啡。这样我们就能有一些共同的理解。这更像是，我如何让我们的互动更容易，而不是我需要那个人扮演某个角色。我认为，问问自己‘我从未与组织的哪个部分互动过’也是很有帮助的。

Right? So if I'm having difficult conversations with someone in design over, you know, one particular piece I'm working on, before the next time I have to work with that person, I might ask them out to coffee. That way we have a little bit of shared understanding. It's less about, I need that person to serve a role and it's more like, how can I make our interactions easier? I think I do think it's also helpful to say, which part of the organization have I never interacted with before?

我能和某人喝杯咖啡吗？我有时会这样做，如果有一封邮件发出，抄送给了很多不同的人，我看到一个我可能认识但从未互动过的名字，我可能会给那个人发邮件说，嘿，我们其实还没见过面。你想见面喝杯咖啡吗？我大概做过两次这样的事。嗯。

And can I have coffee with someone? I do that sometimes if if there's an email that goes out and a bunch of different people are CC'd, and I see someone whose name I maybe recognize, who I've never interacted with, I might email that person and say, hey, we've actually never met. Do you wanna meet for coffee? I've done that like two times. Mhmm.

我不是说我

I'm not saying I do

总是

it all

这样做，但我大概做过两次。而且，实际上，其中一个人我们最后连续吃了三次午饭，因为我们有很多话要聊。我们的孩子年龄相仿。我不认为我们将来会一起工作。但现在我知道，如果出现一些我需要了解她部门的事情，我可以给她打电话。

the time, but I've done it like two times. And it's well, I actually ended up one of the people we ended up having lunch, you know, three times in a row because it was just we had a lot to talk about. We had kids the same age. And I don't think we'll ever work together. But now I do know that I can, you know, call her if there's something that comes up that I need to understand about her department.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。在这方面我发现一个非常有用的方法是，去问你的经理或组织里的其他人，你应该和谁交流。是的。比如我的经理就做得很好，当有人刚入职时，他们会给你一份名单，列出你应该在跨部门间与哪些人交谈。因为他们知道所有这些不同的人各自擅长的领域。

Yeah. And something I found to be really helpful too on that front is like ask your manager or ask other people in the organization who should you be talking to. Yeah. So like my manager is really good at when someone starts here, they like you get a list of people you should talk to around the organization across departments. And because they know like what areas of expertise all these different people have.

当你刚加入时，你可能不一定知道该去见谁，也可能不清楚认识市场部或财务部的某个人将来对你的工作有何帮助。但你的老板可能知道。所以你可以直接问，在这个组织里，我应该和谁一起喝咖啡、见面，并了解他们的工作？所以我认为这非常有用。就是去问别人，比如，在这里你都和谁交流？

And when you're coming in, you might not necessarily know that you won't know who to meet and you might not know, you know, how it would help your job down the road to know someone in marketing or in finance. But your boss might know that. So you can just say, who are some people in this organization I should get coffee with, I should meet, and I should know about their jobs? So I think that is really helpful. Just asking people like, who do you talk to around here?

比如，你有没有和其他部门的人交流，是我应该见见的？我知道我就是通过问我旁边坐的人‘你和分析部门的谁交流’这种方式，认识了跨部门的人。

Like, do you talk to anyone in other departments that I should meet? I know I've met people across departments that way just from asking the person who I sit next to, who do

我认识组织里其他部门的人的另一种方式是通过 affinity groups（兴趣小组）。比如我们有一个‘职场女性’小组，是跨部门聚会的。我在那个小组里认识了一些人，因为他们在某次午餐学习会上发表了有趣的评论，我就跟进联系了他们。嗯。

you talk to in analytics? I think the other thing the other way I've I've met people in different parts of the organization is through affinity groups. So we have like that woman at work group that meets across departments. And I have met people in that group because they've made an interesting comment in one of the lunch and learns and I followed up with them. Mhmm.

甚至组织活动的人也是一个我平时不常打交道的人。嗯。但我因此对她有了更深的了解。所以我我认为这是另一种方式，尤其是在非常大的组织里，就是找一个兴趣小组，或者去参加午餐学习会，坐下来和你旁边的人聊天。

Even the person organizing it is someone who I don't interact with Mhmm. Regularly, and I've gotten to know her better. So I I think that's another way, especially in really large organizations, is find an affinity group or go to a lunch and learn and sit down and talk to the person next to you.

嗯，另外就是当你在工作过程中发现自己正在和一个不认识的人交谈时，你知道，多花几分钟时间去更好地了解他们。因为那种情境下的交流要容易得多。对我来说更容易，也更自然。

Well, the other thing is when you, in the course of your job, find yourself talking to someone you don't know, you know, take an extra couple of minutes to get to know them a little better. Because that that kind of context is much easier. It's easier for me and is much more natural.

是的。就像，保持好奇心就好。是的。对他人保持好奇心。我

Yeah. Like, just be curious Yeah. Be curious. About the other person. I

我认为

think that

真的很有帮助。

really helps.

我的意思是，即便如此，在讨厌电梯门打开后是一个喧闹拥挤的房间的场景和与人见面之间，还有很多灰色地带，你知道的。是的。而且，你知道，我们都喜欢与人见面，那种可能发展成真正友谊的偶遇是非常特别的。

I mean, even so there's a lot of gray area between, you know, hating that scene where the elevator doors open and it's a loud crowded room. Yep. And, you know, meeting people. Yeah. And I think we all like to meet people, and that that chance meeting that could turn into a real friendship is pretty special.

但是，我的意思是，世界上有谁会想走进你描述的那个房间呢？

But, I mean, who the who in the world wants to walk into the room you describing?

有人会，因为他们当时都在那里。

Someone does because they were all there.

是的。不。我我我的我的第一反应是直接回酒店房间点客房服务。

Yeah. No. I I my my head immediately went to heading back up to my hotel room ordering room service.

没错。我坐了下来

That's right. I sat down

一小时内就生病了。是的。没错。

with sick in an hour. Yeah. Exactly.

但我觉得关键点在于，我认为我们确实想要

But I think that here's the thing. I think we do wanna

多聚聚。

hang out more.

我完全赞成。

I'm all for it.

我们来建立人脉吧。

Let's network.

我确实认为我们应该允许人们在那场活动半小时后离开。就像，你在一个

I do think we wanna give people permission to leave after that half an hour at that event. Like, you Half an hour at one

那种活动里待半小时就像跑了八次短跑。

of those events is like running eight sprints.

是的，没错。我同意。你可以做到的。而且你永远不知道结果会怎样。我是说，我遇到的那个女人真的很有趣。

That's yeah. I agree. You but you can do it. And you can and and you never know. I mean, the woman I met is really interesting.

是的。我们已经互相发送了两篇不同的文章。我觉得她可能是我未来真正会合作的人，

Yeah. We've already sent each other two different articles. Like, I think she's someone I might actually collaborate with in the future,

而这一切原本根本不会发生。而且，

and that would have never happened. And also,

你知道，我很喜欢你之前说的那句话，就是你没有其他话可说了。我很喜欢你背的那个包。

you know, I love what you said before about, you know, you don't have anything else to say. I love that bag you're carrying.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯。因为那会开启一段对话。

Mhmm. Because that starts a conversation.

是的。

Yeah.

所以和Inga聊过后我很好奇，你觉得你的人际网络健康吗？或者有没有某个方面是你想要做得更好的？

So I'm curious after talking with Inga, do you feel like you have healthy networks, or is there, like, an aspect you wanna do better at?

我喜欢我的社交圈。我觉得它可以更大、更好。我绝对可以认识更多与我截然不同的新朋友，扩大我每天或每月交流的人群。对我来说更困难的是，我现在正在努力解决如何维持那些长期建立的关系。我们之前聊过去参加会议的事。我经常遇到的情况是，我会在排队买咖啡之类的地方遇到一个很酷的人。

I like my network. I think it could be bigger, better. I could definitely be, you know, meeting more new people who are very different from me and expanding the people who I talk to every day or every month. The harder thing for me that I'm struggling with now is how to maintain relationships that I've built over time and how to so we talked about going to conferences. And something that happens to me a lot is I'll meet someone really cool, like in line for coffee or something.

我们会交换名片，想要保持联系。也许我们会在领英上互加好友，但之后就再也没有后续了。我回顾所有那些我觉得本来可以深入了解的人脉——可能在职业上会很有价值。我想到所有这些会面中潜在的跟进机会，以及我是如何浪费了它们。所以这是我想努力改进的地方，我认为这真的能加强我的社交网络和我认识的人。

And we'll exchange cards and wanna stay in touch. And maybe we'll connect on LinkedIn, but then there will just not be any follow-up. And I look back on all of those relationships I've formed with people who I think would be awesome to just get to know, you know, might be great to know professionally. I think of all the potential for following up on those on those meetings, and how I've wasted them. So that's something that I wanna work on that I think will really help strengthen my network and the people I know.

就是要更留意我遇到的人，并更努力地去维持这些关系。嗯。

It's just being more mindful of who I'm meeting and trying a little harder to maintain the relationships. Mhmm.

关于这一点我有个想法，你知道，你在大学里或刚踏入社会时建立的友谊，与在会议上建立的真正意义上的友谊——即两人之间有深厚善意的那种——它们需要的维护程度是不同的。你在18个月前会议上遇到的那个人，如果再次见到他或她，仍然可以打招呼说‘嘿，很高兴又见到你’，然后重新点燃之前那种可能不算特别深刻但当时很美好的联系。对吧？

So I have a thought about that, which is that, you know, the difference between the friendships you form in, say, college or when you're first out in the world and the friendships that are genuine friendships in the sense that there's a lot of goodwill between the two people that you form in a conference, it they don't require the same amount of maintenance. You know, that the person you met eighteen months ago in a conference is still someone who if you see that if you see him or her again, someone you could say, hey. It's great to see you again. And you rekindle to the same sort of probably not terribly deep point you were at before, but it was kind of lovely in the moment. Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道，这些不是你大学时期的朋友。

You know, you don't it doesn't it's not these are not your college friends.

没错。

Right.

这些人真的是偶遇时很棒的对象。当你遇到他们时，你知道，可以在有需要互相帮助的时候发邮件联系。他们是可爱的人，能在你帮忙的时候伸出援手，也能在你需要时向他们求助。因为，你知道，这种理解是不同的。

These are people who are really nice to run into. When you run into them to, you know, to email when there's something you can do for each other. They're lovely people to help when you can help and to ask for help when you need some from them. Because the, you know, the the understanding is different.

是的。没错。我觉得改变我对这件事的看法，或许能减轻一些关于为什么我没能很好地维持这些关系的焦虑。但它们是非常不同的，你可以用不同的方式去处理，也可以在管理这一切时给自己一些宽松的空间。

Yes. Yeah. I think changing how I think about it maybe would just relieve some of the anxiety around why I'm not doing a good job of maintaining these things. But they're very different and you can approach them differently and you can give yourself some slack in how you're managing all of that.

是的。不要赋予它们超出其本身的意义。你懂吗？它们很重要，但它们是不同的。它们完全是另一回事。

Yeah. Don't invest them with more than they than they are. You know? They they are important, but they're different. They're just a different animal.

我的意思是，我从我们和英格的谈话中领悟到的一点是，你知道，回到那种电梯门打开面对拥挤嘈杂房间的焦虑感。你知道，当电梯门一打开，我们都有过这种经历，我立刻就会想到，你知道，八年级舞会的那种焦虑和恐惧。而这是我自己在给自己施加压力。我觉得今天和英格以及你们的谈话让我意识到，也许，你知道，如果我能在脑子里换个频道，停止那种想法——没人在意八年级舞会有多少男生请我跳舞，也没人在意我和多少人交谈。所以找到一个很棒的人聊天，你知道，这就很好了。

I mean, one thing that I took away from, the conversation we had with Inga is, you know, back to the anxiety in that elevator door opening onto the crowded noisy room. You know, I immediately when that elevator door opens, and we've all been there, is I go right to, you know, the the anxious horror of the eighth grade dance. And and that's me doing it to myself. And I think that talking to Inge and talking with you guys today makes me see that maybe, you know, if I just sort of change the channel in my head and stop you know, no one cares how many guys ask me to dance at the eighth grade dance, and no one cares about how many people I talk to. So finding one great person to talk to is, you know, is great.

那太棒了。没错。而且如果你回房间点客房服务，也没关系。

That's great. Right. And if you go up to your room and order room service, it's okay.

之后再做。

Do it after.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我喜欢设定一个目标，花半小时真诚地去

I mean, I like setting the goal of spending half an hour making an honest effort to

认识

meet

某个人。是的。但有一个我就很开心了。是的。是的。

someone. Yep. But I'd be happy with one. Yeah. Yeah.

是的。这就是我们的节目。我是艾米·伯恩斯坦。

Yep. That's our show. I'm Amy Bernstein.

我是艾米·加洛。我是妮可·托雷斯。我们的编辑和制作团队包括阿曼达·克西、莫琳·霍克、亚当·巴克霍尔兹、玛丽·杜、罗布·埃克哈特、埃里卡·特雷克斯勒和JM·奥尔贾斯。对于任何

I'm Amy Gallo. And I'm Nicole Torres. Our editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Adam Buckholz, Mary Du, Rob Eckhart, Erica Trexler, and JM Oljars. For any of

住在波士顿的听众，我们即将举办一场关于冲突及其处理方式的现场活动

our listeners who live Boston, we have a live event coming up all about conflict and how

关于如何参加。活动时间是11月12日周二晚上6点，在哈佛商学院举行。完全免费。讲座大约一小时，之后我们还会一起交流。我敢肯定现场还会提供小吃。

to navigate it. It is on Tuesday, November 12 at 6PM at Harvard Business School. It's totally free. The talk will be, like, an hour, and then we're gonna hang out afterwards. And I'm pretty sure there will be snacks.

除了小吃，我们还邀请了哈佛商学院的琳达·希尔教授。我们也会尽可能多地回答现场观众的提问。

Snacks, plus we're gonna have Linda Hill, who's a professor at Harvard Business School. We're also gonna take as many questions from the audience as we can possibly squeeze in.

节目备注中会附上链接，方便大家了解更多活动详情并进行注册。到时候见。期待见到大家。

There will be a link in our show notes so that you can find out more about the event and to register. We'll see you there. See you there.