性别歧视无处不在

您正在收听哈佛商业评论的《职场女性》栏目。我是艾米·加洛。主持这档播客让我深刻认识到职场文化中一个令人沮丧却真实的现实——性别歧视无处不在。从人们对女性外貌行为的期待，到企业不完善或不公平的育儿假政策，

You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo. Hosting this podcast has driven home one of the frustrating but true realities of workplace cultures. Sexism is everywhere. From people's expectations about how women look and act to companies inadequate or unfair parental leave policies.

它同样体现在管理者分配的任务、给予的反馈评分中，或是他们未能给予的认可、晋升与加薪上。但即便知道性别歧视普遍存在，当它发生在你身上时，震惊感丝毫不会减轻。比如有人不断打断你的发言，在会议上窃取你的创意，或是年终评分与你实际表现严重不符时。许多性别歧视是隐性的而非明目张胆，这使得我们难以判断同事或客户的行为是否源于偏见，而这种不确定性往往会引发强烈的自我怀疑。

It also shows up in the assignments, and feedback and ratings that managers give us or the credit and promotions and raises that they don't. But knowing that sexism is everywhere doesn't soften the shock when it happens to you. Like when somebody interrupts you over and over or takes credit for your idea in a meeting, or when you receive an end of year rating that just doesn't align with your actual performance. A lot of sexism is insidious, not blatant, which means it can be tough to discern whether something a colleague or a client did or didn't do is in fact because of bias. And that can lead to a lot of self doubt.

既然在某些（或许是多数）情况下，我们永远无法确知对方行为的动机，该如何与这种不确定性共处？又何时值得花费精力去直面可能存在的偏见？今天有两位研究性别刻板印象与无意识偏见的女性学者将与我共同探讨这些问题。凯蒂·考夫曼是哈佛商学院经济学家兼教授，专注研究刻板印象如何影响我们的自我认知；

So if in some cases, maybe most, we'll never know what drove their actions. How do we make peace with that uncertainty? And when is confronting that person about the potential bias worth our energy? Two women who study gender stereotypes and unconscious bias are here to talk through these questions with me. Katie Kaufman is an economist and professor at Harvard Business School, where she studies how stereotypes impact our beliefs about ourselves.

米歇尔·德吉德是康奈尔大学教授兼多样性、包容性与归属感副院长。米歇尔、凯蒂，非常感谢二位参与本次对话。

Michelle DeGid is a professor at Cornell and the school's associate dean of diversity, inclusion, and belonging. Michelle, Katie, thank you so much for joining us.

很荣幸来到这里。

Great to be here.

谢谢邀请，这是

Thanks for having us. This is

个重大议题，能汇聚两位的智慧令我无比振奋。我很好奇，你们职业生涯中是否遇到过某些悬而未决的经历——当时无法确定是否存在偏见因素？能否分享你们的亲身故事？

a big topic, and I'm so excited to have both of your minds on this. And I'm curious if either of you have had experiences in your career where there was something unresolved. You weren't sure whether bias was at at play. Could you share a story of of an experience you've had?

是的。我想说，首先，我认为自己非常幸运，因为尽管在一个主要由男性主导的行业中工作，我的经历绝大多数是积极的，我并不觉得偏见在我的生活或职业生涯中扮演了重要角色。在这方面我感到非常幸运。话虽如此，你肯定能回想起一些例子，我会说，我比较常见的经历之一就是那种感觉自己可能不属于这里的感觉，对吧？无论是在会议上，还是在会前的社交活动中。

Yeah. I mean, I I wanna say, first of all, I think I've been extremely fortunate in that for the most part, even, you know, operating in what is largely a male dominated profession, that my experiences have been overwhelmingly positive, and I do not feel like bias has played a huge role in my life or my career. And I feel very lucky in that way. With that said, you know, you can certainly think back on instances, and I would say, you know, one of the more common experiences I have is sort of the case of feeling like maybe I don't belong, right? And so whether it's a conference, maybe it's a sort of a social event before the conference, right?

比如鸡尾酒会之类的场合，我和我丈夫一起出席时，有人走过来问他，‘哦，你要发表什么演讲？’而实际上，今天是我作为经济学家出席。这种误解很容易发生。我不能说自己从未犯过类似的错误，假设男性才是从事这类工作的人。但这类小插曲时不时就会出现。

A cocktail hour or something like that, and I am there with my husband and someone comes up to him and says, Oh, what are you presenting? And it's like, Actually, I'm The Economist today. And it's an easy mistake to make. I can't say that I've never been guilty of making a similar mistake of assuming the guy is the one with the male type job. But there are little moments like that that crop up from time to time.

是的。现在我真的能想到一个例子，因为这是最近发生的，但老实说这种情况经常出现。被窃取的想法。我认为女性经常讨论这个问题，就像你说的，你提出某个观点时没引起多少关注，然后突然有人说了完全一样的话。

Yeah. Well, now I actually can think of one because it is actually pretty recent, but frankly happens pretty often. Stolen ideas. I think women talk about this a lot, you know, like you say something doesn't get a lot of traction. And then all of a sudden someone says something exactly the same.

这次，一位同事实际上引用了我的想法。他说了出来，大家继续讨论。然后他又提到一次，他说，‘哦，就像米歇尔说的那样。’

This one, a colleague actually referenced my idea. Like, had said it. People were just carrying going on. And then he referenced it again. He was like, oh, you know, as Michelle was saying.

然后讨论继续，这个想法却被归功于他。他不得不澄清，‘不，不，记得吗，是米歇尔先提到的。我只是重复了一下。’

And then the conversation carried on, and the idea was then attributed to him. And he had to say, oh, no. No. Remember, it was Michelle who referenced that. I just repeated it.

所以这是一个被窃取的想法，也是一个非常有趣的插曲，但同时也展示了同事间的某种盟友关系。

So it was a stolen idea and a very interesting comics, but also demonstrated some allyship from a colleague.

是的。那么米歇尔的例子中的问题是，这种情况发生是因为她是女性吗？我想房间里的人可能不会都这么认为，也许大多数人会这么想。但这样假设有什么帮助呢？

Yeah. Well, the question in Michelle's example, right, is is that happening because she's a woman? I think everyone in the room would probably assume not everyone. Maybe most people in the room would assume it is. But why is that helpful?

为什么认识到这种情况可能发生是有帮助的？我要告诉你，艾米·B，我的播客搭档，她说过，愚蠢和偏见有什么区别？对吧？我认为这是个值得思考的好问题。比如在那个例子中，是因为最近的发言者碰巧是个男性，所以人们就认为那是他的主意，这是一种短视的愚蠢行为吗？

Why is it helpful to recognize that might be happening? And I'll tell you Amy B, my my cohost on the podcast, you know, she says, what's the difference if it's stupidity or bias? Right? And I and I I think it's a good question to ask. So, like, in that case, like, is it stupidity and short termness of, oh, the most recent person who said it just happens to be this man, so may it's his idea.

还是因为米歇尔是女性而对方是男性，我们更倾向于把想法归功于男性？

Or is it because Michelle's a woman and this guy is a guy and we like to attribute ideas to guys?

对此我有两点想法。其一是我总试图在杂音中寻找信号——在我收到的反馈或发生的事件中，是否有值得汲取的经验？明白我所听到的批评、遇到的阻力或未获得的认可可能受到偏见影响，这会改变我的应对方式。

Two things come to mind for me on that. One is sort of I find that I search for the signal in the noise. Hey, in this piece of feedback I'm receiving or in this thing that happened, is there something I can take from this and learn? Right? And so understanding whether sort of maybe the criticism I'm hearing or the pushback I'm getting or the lack of credit I'm receiving, if I can recognize like, oh, maybe that's being shaped a little bit by bias, that might change how I think about responding to it.

比如当你听到反馈说你对待同事过于强势时，若能意识到这可能是偏见所致，你就会明白：问题不在于我确实待人刻薄或过分 assertive，而在于他们对行为强势女性的固有认知。因此我不会急于改变自己的行为。

So perhaps you hear feedback, right, that you're maybe too sharp elbowed, right, with some of your colleagues. I think that's an instance of recognizing that that might come from a place of bias, might lead you to say, Hey, it's not actually the case that I'm being a jerk to people or I'm being much too assertive. It's actually about them and their perception of women who behave this way. Right? And so I'm not gonna worry as much about changing my behavior.

其二从宏观角度看，即使你能接受愚蠢偏见的存在（毕竟总有人会犯浑），记录「这人可能带有偏见」仍很重要。我会与同事交流，特别是关照资浅同事或学生，确保经历类似处境的人明白自己并不孤单。我也会分享自己的应对经验。

I think the second reason it can be helpful to recognize the possibility of bias is sort of a bigger picture thought, which is even if you're sort of completely okay with stupidity bias, like sometimes people are gonna be jerks, it might still be a good thing to sort of keep track of like, that person seems like maybe they have a little bit of bias going on. I'm gonna talk to some of my colleagues or maybe look after in particular some of my more junior colleagues, right? Or maybe some of my students and make sure that, you know, to the extent that other people are experiencing similar things that they recognize they're not alone in this. Right? And, hey, I'm dealing with something similar.

让我们共同探讨解决之道。

Let's talk about this. Let's think about how we can deal with it.

是的。米歇尔，你认为了解或识别偏见为何重要？

Yeah. Michelle, what are you thinking in terms of the reasons it's helpful to know about the bias or to recognize it?

我也想说这是愚蠢、无意识的偏见、混蛋行为，可能仍然带有偏见。对吧？对我来说，

I would also say so it's stupidity, unconscious bias, jerk, which could still be biased. Right? To me, there

存在三种类型。从你似乎在考虑对方意图的角度来看，有三种类型。对吧？前两类是无意的。第三类则是有意的。

are three categories. Three categories in terms of and it sounds like you're thinking about the person's intention. Right? The first two are there's not an intention. The third, there is.

我认为用'愚蠢'来形容可能不太准确，更像是某种无知，对吧，那种浑然不觉的状态。我甚至没有意识到。对吧？这就是为什么前两类最难辨析。我一直在思考的是，我们两周前做了一期节目回答听众提问。

And I think stupidity is probably not the right word to describe it, but sort of the ignorance, right, that that comes along with. I'm not even aware. Right? And I think that's why those first two categories are so hard to parse. And that's one of the things that I I wonder about is that we actually did an episode two weeks ago where we answered questions from listeners.

其中有个问题来自一位在男性主导领域工作的女性，她

And one of the questions was from someone who worked in a male dominated field and was sort

在思考是否因为自己是年轻女性而难以获得下属的认同。艾米·B的建议是：别让这个念头成为她脑海里最响亮的声音，因为纠结于潜在的偏见无济于事。我完全同意。这就像试图通过嚼口香糖来解决数学题——反复琢磨这种偏见只会让你陷入负面情绪。

of wondering whether she wasn't gaining traction with some of her direct reports because she's a younger female. And Amy B's advice was like, don't let that be the loudest voice in her head because focusing on the potential bias at play, there's not much to do with that. I I completely agree. It's like trying to solve a math problem by chewing gum. Like, ruminating about this bias is just gonna do nothing but put you in a bad headspace.

我认为我们可以先意识到这点，然后思考：有什么不同的处理方式？我是否该给予反馈？对我来说，把时间花在解决方案上更有价值。如果对那个特定个体无解，我认为找他人倾诉也有宣泄作用。有时候我们只是需要确认'问题不在我'。

I I think it's something we can recognize and then figure out or think about, okay, what could have gone differently? Do I give feedback? That to me is time better spent about solutions or if there isn't a solution in terms of that individual for you. And I also think it's a little cathartic also to talk to someone else about it. I think some of us just wanna know it isn't me.

对吧？然后我觉得这样反而能帮助我们更轻松地放下一些事。

Right? And and then I think sometimes that helps us let things go a little bit more.

是的。所以寻求的并不一定是确认，而是帮助某人帮助反映实际情况。再次想到你的处境，米歇尔，你可能会想，是不是我没有清楚地表达我的想法？对吧？是不是我没有足够有力地表达，以至于人们没有真正理解？

Yeah. So seeking out sort of not confirmation necessarily, but help someone helping to reflect what actually was what's going on. And again, I think about your situation, Michelle, of like, you can sort of wonder, did I not present my idea clearly enough? Right? Did I not do it forcefully enough so that people actually understood?

还是因为他是男性？我认为和当时在场的其他人谈谈，他们可以说，实际上不是的。你表达得非常清楚。当他复述时，你实际上比他更清晰。我也喜欢这种和别人一起处理这个想法的做法。

Or was it because he's a man? And and I think that talking to someone else who is in the room who can say, well, actually, no. You were really clear. You were actually clearer than he was when he restated it. I I like that idea too of sort of processing it with someone.

所以这个不反复思考、不固着于某一点的想法，就像你说的，米歇尔，是一种宣泄，可以让你放下或认识到发生了什么。但有没有一些情况，你真的无法放下某件事，尤其是关于性别偏见的担忧？我很好奇，是什么让一些事情更容易放下，而另一些则更难。

So this idea of not ruminating, not getting sort of fixated and like you said, Michelle, being cathartic to sort of move past it or recognize what's happening. Have there been situations though where you have really been hung up on something that happened and the concern about gender bias where you really couldn't let it go? I'm I'm curious what makes something easier to let go versus harder.

我认为当某件事真正影响到你的自我概念时，但我非常刻意地选择放下。我甚至会问自己，这样想能解决什么？你的目标是什么？思考这些能实现任何目标吗？

I think when something really impacts your self-concept, but I am really purposeful about letting go. And I literally say, how is this gonna solve this? Like, what is your goal here? Is thinking about this gonna fulfill any goal?

不能

It's not

让事情变得更好。它不会给那个人任何反馈。我会这样说服自己，以便能够放下。不过，就像我说的，有些事确实更难。现在无论事情有多严重，我都试着放下，因为反复思考并不能解决任何问题。

gonna make things better. It's not going to give that person feedback. And I talk myself through that so that I can. Although, like I said, there's things that are harder. Now I try to, regardless of the intensity, I try to let it go because ruminating does not solve anything.

它只会让你的幸福感变得更糟。所以

It just makes your well-being worse. So

是的。没错。我妻子是心理治疗师，在我们家庭对话中，防止过度沉思是个常见主题。关于自我认知这个概念，当某些事挑战你对自己的看法时——我确实经常思考这个问题。

Yeah. Yeah. That's I'm married to a therapist and that's the guardian the guardian against rumination is a common common thread in our our family conversations. And I think that idea of self-concept, like something that challenges who you think you are. I I mean, I think about this.

有次我收到一封极其无礼的邮件。当时我正试图和这个人划清界限，我们仅通过邮件往来，几乎没有任何交情。他发邮件指责我不重视人际联结，就因为我拒绝和他通话。哇哦。

I once got this email from someone that was so rude. And because I was sort of trying to set boundaries with this person, it was someone who I only knew over email. We didn't have, we barely had any relationship at all. And he sent me an email sort of accusing me of not valuing human connection because I wouldn't have a call with him. Wow.

我当时就想：等等，天哪，我明明非常重视人际联结。他质疑的正是这点。我不得不自问：如果对方是个设定界限的男性，他还会这么说吗？但用艾米·B的话说，这个念头并非我脑海里最响亮的声音。

And I was like, wait, oh my god. I completely value human connection. So that idea that he he was challenging. And I had to I did ask myself like, would you have said that to a man who has set a boundary? But it wasn't to use Amy B's language, it wasn't the loudest voice in my head.

最响亮的声音是：等等，我真的是自己想象中的那种人吗？于是我不得不深入剖析：那条评论意味着什么？动机何在？是在映射我还是映射他本人？

The loudest voice was, wait, am I actually the kind of person who I thought I was? Right? And so I had to sort of really work through what did that comment mean? Where was it coming from? Was it a reflection of me or a reflection of him?

其中是否存在偏见问题？说实话，我花了些时间反复纠结这件事——都四年前的事了，我现在还能背出那封邮件，可见它对我影响多深。

Was there some issue of of bias in it? And, you know, it took me a while. I did ruminate about that one for a while. I mean, this was four years ago. I can probably recite the email, which shows you how much it stuck in my head.

那你当时怎么回复那封邮件的？

So how did you respond to that email?

问得好。我试着回忆...啊，我想起来了！有趣的是，这件事我写进了书里。

That's a good question. I I'm trying to remember. I oh, I know exactly what I did. It's funny. I wrote about this in my book.

所以我删除了，我做的第一件事就是删除它。就像我总是收到这样的信息，然后我就想，不行。就像，不。我试图设定一个界限。你没有接受。

So I delete the first thing I did was delete it. Like I always got it and I was like, no. Like, nope. I tried to set a boundary. You didn't accept it.

我受够了。但后来我又回去了，因为我确实连续很多个晚上都在思考我本可以给出的不同回应。比如，我试过其中一个想法是，你会对一个男人说这样的话吗？对吧？然后我就想，等等，什么？

I'm done. But then I went back because I did stay up many nights in a row thinking about different responses I could have had. Like, and I did one of the responses I thought was like, would you have ever said this to a man? Right? And then I was like, wait, what?

为什么我要试图纠正这个陌生人的性别偏见？我甚至不认识这个人。我没有任何投入。理想情况下，我们再也不会互动了。而事实是，我最终把它从我的已删除文件夹里找了出来。

Why am I trying to fix this stranger's gender bias? Like, I don't even know this person. I have no investment. Ideally, we'll never interact again. And the truth is I ended up so I pulled it out of my deleted folder.

我写了一封很长的回复，但最终没有发送。因为我觉得，你知道吗？我甚至不需要参与。但把我想说的话写出来然后删除的过程真的很有帮助。

I wrote a long response and then never sent it. Because I felt like, you know what? I don't even need to engage. But the process of sort of saying what I wish I could have said and then deleting it was really helpful.

是的。而且我想说，这也呼应了米歇尔之前提到的观点，无论是未发送的邮件，还是你走进工作中最好的朋友的办公室，关上门说，所以我想说，你知道，让他们看着你说，是的，你是对的。就像，那就是你应该说的。所以我认为这种发泄方式，无论是通过信件还是向他人倾诉，都非常有帮助。

Yeah. And I mean, to Michelle's earlier idea too, whether it's a unsent email or, you know, you go into your best friend at work's office and close the door and say, And so I wanted to say, you know, and having them sort of look back at you and say like, Yeah, you're right. Like, that is what, you know, you should have said. So I think that type of venting, whether in a letter or to another person can be incredibly helpful.

是的。是的。我甚至有个朋友有时会来找我倾诉。她是一位有色人种女性，会说，我能告诉你有人对我说了什么荒谬的话吗？通常这些话要么是种族歧视，要么是性别歧视，或者两者兼有。

Yeah. Yeah. I even have a friend who sometimes will come to me with things. She's a woman of color who will say, can I tell you this absurd thing someone said to me? Oftentimes it's racist or sexist or both.

而我总是这样回应，我们是该笑还是该生气？是的。有时候她会说，我们在笑。我就说，好的，太好了。因为确实两者都有。

And I always respond like, are we laughing or are we mad? Yeah. And sometimes she's like, we're laughing. I was like, okay, great. I'm like because it is it's both.

比如，你可以嘲笑这些事情中的某些荒谬之处，但我认为在表象之下，这其实非常令人愤怒，有时甚至极度剥夺人性。我想这正是我在试图理解的部分——当我们意识到其中非人化的成分时，该如何消化这种感受？

Like, you can laugh at the absurdity of some of this stuff, But I it's also really underneath it, incredibly angering, and sometimes really dehumanizing. I think that's the part I'm trying to figure out when we recognize the dehumanizing part of it. How do we process that?

艾米，我听到你说，为什么要试图纠正这个人的性别偏见？我的意思是，显然我们研究并经常讨论这类话题。嗯。但你是否有什么特别原因，让你从这封邮件中首先注意到这一点？

You know, Amy, I heard you say, you know, why are you trying to fix this guy's gender bias? I mean, clearly, studied this stuff and we talk about this stuff a lot. Mhmm. But is there a reason that that's what you identified from this email?

是的。部分原因可能是那种'反转测试'的思维——他会期待从男性那里获得同等程度的人际关怀吗？这是盘旋在我脑海中的疑问之一。我想这部分也源于我在播客中探讨的工作内容。

Yeah. I mean, I think partly it was that sort of flip it to test it. Like, would he have expected the same level of human connection from a man? That was one of the things played in my head. I mean, I think partly it is because of what I work on and talk about in this podcast.

这个话题总是我最先想到的。有时我不确定这是否有益。应该说我很庆幸拥有这个视角，它让我能以不同方式看待事物，但这并非我唯一的视角。只是在这个案例中，这是浮现的要点之一。当你听到那个故事时，你察觉到性别偏见了吗？

Like it is top of mind for me. And sometimes I don't know if that's helpful or not. I'm glad to have that lens I should say, because I feel like it gives me a different way of viewing things, but it's not my only lens. It's just in that case, one of the things that came up. I mean, when you hear that story, do you hear gender bias in it?

我很好奇。

I'm curious.

我完全同意你的观点。这种认知可能追溯回凯蒂的观点——这显然是对方的问题而非你的问题。所以我认为有时候这种意识确实有帮助。是的。

I absolutely I I agree with you. I think the recognition that it could be going all the way back to Katie's point, you're like, this is clearly a you issue and not a me issue. So I I do think sometimes it's helpful. Yeah.

但事情也有另一面：如果你时刻高度警惕可能的偏见，在每件事中都听出偏见，首先你会活得很不快乐，其次可能会错过那些真正具有建设性、对你有益的意见。是的。所以这里需要微妙平衡，对吧？你既要意识到偏见存在的可能，也要保持开放心态——并非所有事情都带有偏见。确实如此。

There is a flip side of that, which is if you sort of walk around hyperaware of the possibility of bias and hear bias in everything, I think you're gonna, one, be a lot less happy, and two, you may miss some stuff that actually is constructive and would be helpful for you to hear. Yeah. And so there's a fine line there, right? You wanna recognize the possibility of bias, but I think be asking yourself, be open to the possibility that, hey, not everything's biased. Yeah.

而且有时候里面确实有些有用的东西，我应该对此保持开放态度。

And and sometimes there's something that's actually useful in there, and I should be open to that.

没错。我是否应该假定积极意图？这不是出于对别人的慷慨，而是因为这让我更开放、更好奇，也更有可能合作，这正是我想要的。对吧？还是我把一切都视为潜在有害的，从心理学角度我们知道，这不是一个好的状态。

Right. Do I assume positive intent? Not out of generosity to the other person, but because it makes me more open and curious and and potentially collaborative, which is what I want. Right? Or do I see everything as potentially harmful, which is not like we know from a psychological perspective, is not a great place to be.

对吧？就像你说的，这对你自己的大脑来说并不愉快，也不利于与他人合作和建立联系。

Right? It like you said, it's not a fun for your own brain, but it's also not conducive to collaborating and and connecting with other people.

所以我教授谈判课程。你知道，我们总是谈论寻找扩大利益和创造价值的机会。我们甚至通过经典的囚徒困境游戏来给他们展示这一点，对吧？在一个重复的囚徒困境中，如果你总是试图保护自己免受对方可能的背叛，那么就永远无法创造任何价值，对吧？你永远无法走上有效合作的道路。

So I teach negotiation. And, you know, we always talk about looking for opportunities to grow the pie and create value. We give them a chance to demonstrate this even through playing something like the classic prisoner's dilemma, right? Where in a repeated prisoner's dilemma, if you're always sort of out to protect yourself from the other person potentially stabbing you in the back, then there's never any value to be created, right? You never get to that path of cooperation and working together effectively.

因此，至少在最初阶段，对善意可能性保持开放的态度，创造了我们能够成功合作、成长、学习和创造价值的环境。然后，一旦我们建立了持续的——用一个不太准确的词来说——合作关系，建立了那种融洽和信任，我认为你也更有能力应对那些说错话的情况。

And so that idea of being open to the possibility of good intentions, at least initially, creates the environment where actually we can collaborate successfully and we can grow and we can learn and we can create value. And then once you get to that place where we've had that sustained cooperation, for lack of a better word, relationship, we've built that rapport, that trust, then I think you're also better positioned to withstand the comment that comes out wrong.

没错。

Right.

对吧？比如，有人说了一些话，但就像，我认识你。我们长期看到那些善意，所以我知道我们可以克服这一点。我认为这在你如何回应中起到了作用，我知道我们接下来会讨论这一点。

Right? Where, hey, someone says something, but it's like, I've known you. We I've sort of seen those good intentions for a long time, and so I know we can get past this. And that, I think, plays a role in how you respond to, which I know we're gonna get to.

确实如此。这种持续的协作或现有关系也会决定我们是否回应。就像我遇到的那封邮件，我删了两次，因为我对与这个人建立关系毫无兴趣。但米歇尔，我在想会议室里那个窃取你想法或未窃取却归功于他人的人——我很好奇，当我们决定回应自认为存在偏见的事情时，会通过哪些筛选标准？又是依据什么标准来决定是否将其定性为偏见？

Well, exactly. That sustained cooperation or existing relationship will also determine whether we respond. Like in my email situation, like I deleted that email twice because I had no interest in a relationship with this person. But Michelle, I'm thinking about the person in the room who stole your idea or didn't steal it, accredited it to someone else is that then I'm curious, what are the filters we put a decision through when we decide to respond to something that we think is biased? And what are the filters we use to decide whether to name it as bias?

我可能永远不会使用'偏见'这个词。我不想让那些只是无知的人难堪，我希望他们能从中成长学习，不再对我这样做，也不再对其他人这样做。如果在会议中途拍桌大喊'这是偏见'——就像我说的，我始终牢记目标：我的目的是羞辱对方、让他们难堪吗？

I will probably never use the word bias. I don't wanna shut someone down that I think is it's just being clueless or I hoping that they can grow from it and learn from it and not do it to me again but also not do it to anyone else. And by jumping on the table and saying in the middle of a meeting, that was bias. It's probably not like I said, I try to keep it in mind, what is my goal here? My goal is to shame the person, embarrass them.

或许我会采取那种方式。但既然这是位有过交集的同事，当时可能有些心不在焉，或是无意识偏见，我倾向于用更幽默的方式处理。就像我说的，如果有人重复我早前说过的话，我会说'哦，那好像是我说的'，对方通常会立刻承认'对对，是米歇尔说的'。

Maybe I go that route. But since this is a colleague who I have had interactions with in that moment being a little out to lunch or this is unconscious bias, I tend to approach it in a more humorous way. Like I said, often I'll try to, you know, if someone says something that I had said earlier, I'll be like, Oh, oh, you know, I think that was me. And the person who they'll be like, oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. It was Michelle.

如果他们道歉，我会说'没关系'。但重要的是获得某种认可。所以我为自己发声过，当看到其他女性遭遇类似情况时，我也同样会指出来。

And if they apologize, oh yeah, no worries. That's fine. But you know, some recognition. So I've called it out on my own. And when I've seen it with other women, I have also called it out.

我会说'我记得凯蒂早前提过这个，那是个很棒的想法，很高兴比尔在此基础上延伸，因为我也认为这确实是我们应该采取的方向'。这些就是我为自己或他人发声时采用的方式。

I would say, Oh, you know, I thought Katie Katie actually said that earlier. I thought it was a great idea and I'm so glad that Bill built upon it because I too thought that that was definitely the way we should go. Those are some of the ways that I've tried to call them out for myself or call them out for other people.

是的。这些情况下你并非在给偏见贴标签，而是在试图纠正偏见，对吗？

Yeah. In those cases, you're not naming the bias. You're just sort of trying to correct the bias. Is that right?

没错。我所说的这些对象，他们明白存在无意识偏见，而这类情况往往就是其表现方式之一。

Yeah. These particular people that I'm saying this to, they get that there's unconscious bias and often it turns up in ways like this. Right.

所以你并不觉得

So you don't feel a

强烈的教育需求，更像是指出错误。是的。如果他们需要更多指导，我会私下找他们说，这有点像帮我帮你——你可能没意识到自己做了这件事，但X、Y、Z这些行为，或许你需要去道个歉。你的意图其实不重要，因为我知道他们会说‘我不是故意的’，但重点不在这里。

strong need to educate as much as sort of point out the mistake. Yeah. And if it is that they need a little bit more, I will pull someone aside and say, it's kind of a help help me help You you may not have realized you did this, but x y and z, and maybe you may need to go to apologize. Your intention actually doesn't matter because I'm sure they'll be like and I know they're like, I didn't mean to do that. Then like, that doesn't matter.

有人感到不快，你道歉不是为了意图，而是为让他人感到不安这件事。没错。

Someone was upset, and what you're apologizing for is not intention. You're apologizing for making someone upset. Yeah.

也可能存在——这取决于具体情况是否适用——从‘嘿，我也曾犯过类似错误’的角度切入。

There can also be and it it's gonna depend a bit on the situation whether this works. Right? But connecting from that place of, hey. Hey. I've stepped in it too before.

对吧？这意味着承担一些责任，承认自己过去可能也有偏见或表现出类似倾向。或者可以说‘其实我经历过类似对话，对方告诉我这样表达会让人误解。所以我特地来分享，因为从中受益匪浅——有些语言会产生我们完全没预料到的效果’。这同样是为了强调我们站在同一战线：目标都是避免偏见，而达成目标面临的障碍也是共通的。

Right? Which is taking some responsibility or ownership of the times where maybe you've been biased or displayed a similar bias or, hey, you know, I actually I had a similar conversation and the person had shared with me that actually it came across like this. And so I just wanted to come to you and just because I learned so much from it, like share with you that, you know, sometimes this language comes across in a way that we really don't intend, right? And it's to that same point, like putting us on the same team of like, we have the same goals, which is to not be biased. We have the same obstacles in getting to those goals, right?

我认为这对绝大多数同事都有效——他们不是恶意屡犯者，只是偶尔需要善意的提醒。我自己也需要这样的提醒。用这种方式表达，往往能消除对方的戒备心。

And I think that works with the vast majority of colleagues that are not sort of ill intentioned repeat offenders, but are instead someone who every so often just needs a a little tap on the shoulder. And I need that too. Right? And remembering that and framing it that way, I think, can be disarming as well.

我想请教几个听众提供的案例。最近有位女士在活动上提问：她在多个自由项目中反复收到反馈，说她的邮件过于直白简短，让人觉得粗鲁进而认为她本人无礼。有次收到这类反馈时，一位男同事对她说‘如果你是男性，根本不会得到这种评价’。作为中层管理的女性，她现在很困扰——毕竟工作需要发送大量邮件。

I did wanna ask about a few scenarios that we've gotten from listeners or people in our our world. In particular, there was a woman at an event I recently did who asked a question about how she's been getting some feedback through her career. So it happened multiple times on different freelance projects that her emails were too blunt or short, and that people are find them rude and therefore find her rude. And she said that she got one of those pieces of feedback and then someone who was working with her, a man said, you know, if you were a man, you would you would have never gotten that feedback. And, you know, she's now sort of struggling with, as a woman in middle management, she has to send lots of emails.

有时这些邮件并非人们想听到的消息。有时它们包含可能让人不开心的决定。她如何判断是否需要改变写邮件的方式，还是认为这只是他人的问题或社会对女性的偏见，从而坚持自己原有的邮件风格。

Sometimes those emails aren't news people necessarily want to hear. Sometimes they're decisions that might not make people happy. How does she decide whether, yeah, she actually does need to change the way she writes emails or just decide, you know what, this is someone else's issue or this is the way we perceive women, and I'm just gonna continue to write emails the way I write emails.

是的。归根结底要看你的目标是什么。在不认识这个人或从未看过她邮件的情况下，很可能她的邮件确实简明扼要。问题不在于邮件长短本身，而是...

Yeah. I it comes back to, like, what's your objective? It may very well be without knowing this person or ever seeing the emails that indeed her emails are kind of short and to the point. Right? And it's it's not that, oh, are my emails actually short or not short?

男性不需要表现亲和力就能成功，而女性却被要求具备这种特质。你当然希望能改变这种体制。

But instead that men can succeed without being warm. Right? But women, that warmth is sort of required in a way that it's not for men. Right? And so you'd love to change the system.

如果体制确实存在偏见，社会也存在偏见，你会希望改变它。但眼下我们只能考虑如何在现有体制中游刃有余。如果职场晋升的前提是收件人对你的邮件满意，那么我会选择妥协——添加问候语、祝福语，让邮件显得更温暖以获得晋升机会。这并非说体制就该如此运作，而是在现实环境中尽力而为。若邮件反馈不影响职业发展，那么对那些能无视负面评价的人，我认为完全可以选择我行我素。

If the system is really biased and the society is biased, you'd love to change it. But for now, we're gonna think about navigating the system as best we can. And so if a prereq for you getting ahead in your career is that these email recipients are really happy with your emails, then, you know, coming from what I myself would do, I'd say, I'm gonna swallow it, and I'm gonna add an extra greeting and hope your day is going well at the end of the email, and I'm gonna get that next promotion because my emails are a little bit warmer. That does not mean that that's how things should work. That would be, I am gonna do the best I can given the environment To I'm the extent that actually their enjoyment of your emails does not factor into your career success, then I think, you know, if you're someone, more power to you if you are, who could just kinda let go of that negative feedback and say, alright.

随便吧，他们觉得我有点粗鲁也无所谓——在我看来这也是完全可以接受的应对方式。

So whatever. They think I'm a little rude. That's a perfectly acceptable response in my mind as well.

确实。凯蒂你之前说的很有道理，第一步应该自问：这个批评是否有道理？是否需要改变？她纠结的正是这点——她不认为批评有道理，但反复收到类似反馈，迫使她不得不进行自我反思。

Yeah. I mean, I think back to what you were saying earlier, Katie, about one of the first steps is to ask, like, is there truth to this? Is there something I wanna change? And I think that's what she was really struggling with is that she was like, I don't really feel like there's truth to this, but I've gotten that feedback repeatedly. So I do have to do some self reflection.

米歇尔，你对她的处境怎么看？

Michelle, what do you think about her situation?

对我来说，如果这种情况反复发生，且情境不同、对象不同、情况各异，那就是数据。

To me, if this is happening again and again, and it's different context, it's different people, it's different, That's data.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么或许需要一些自我反思、开放心态和退后一步。我经常对那些向我咨询此类问题的女性说，我能做的只是提供数据和事实，而你要根据自己想要采取的策略做出选择。如果你想坚持正义之战，我全力支持。我不会劝阻你，但我需要提供这些可能结果的数据给你。

Then maybe some self reflection, open mindedness, taking a step back. I tell women all the time who asked me about these things. All I can do is give you the data and the facts, and you make your own choices about the strategies you want. If you wanna fight the good fight, more power to you. I would not dissuade you, but I need to give you the data on what those outcomes could be.

要知道，女性确实会遭遇反弹。有大量数据和研究可以佐证——当男女做完全相同的事时，女性可能会因同样的行为方式遭受反弹。基于这些信息，再结合你的目标，你就能做出最适合自己的决定：是要坚持原则斗争，还是软化邮件措辞？

You know, women, we do, we get backlash. There's so much data to show, so many studies that we can reference. Everyone doing the exact same thing, man, woman, and women may get backlash for doing exactly the same in the same way. And with that information, given your goals, then you make decisions about what's best for you. Are you gonna fight the good fight or are you going to soften the emails?

就像凯特说的'早上好'。对吧？我认为所有领导者都会反复权衡，是展现权威形象还是保持亲和力。但关键在于带着这种认知主动决策，而非被动陷入其中。

Like, Kate said, good morning. Right? And I think all leaders, we go back and forth whether we wanna turn up as authoritative or we wanna turn up as, you know, approachable. But going into it with that knowledge that that's the decision making versus falling into it.

没错。

Right.

但我想对她说，她应该保持开放心态，因为如果这种情况跨越多重情境、涉及不同人群和工作环境，作为研究者，我们就能发现其中趋势。

But I would I would say to her, she should be open because if it's across multiple contexts, multiple people, multiple workplaces, as researchers, if there there are trends

嗯。

Mhmm.

或许可以回头分析一下。我会打印几封邮件，删掉我的邮箱地址然后问：如果这是一个男人发来的，你会怎么评价？人们会说'真是个混蛋'吗？这样太粗鲁了。因为我收到过一些男人发来的简短邮件，如果注意到她需要调整，那就能给她提供信息。

Maybe going back and doing some analysis of that. I print off a couple emails, take my email address off and say, what would you say if you got this from a guy? Would people say, what a jerk? That's rude. Because I've gotten some curt emails from guys and If noted it is that she needs to adjust, then that'll give her information.

如果存在无意识偏见，同样也能给她提供信息。

And if it is that there's unconscious bias, then also it gives her information.

我喜欢她打算和你做个简短实验的想法。但我觉得虽然她可能没时间或空间这么做，你真正要求的是仔细审视数据，认真思考背后可能的原因。我回到之前说的，拥有这个视角并加以考虑是有帮助的，但不要过度纠结到每次发邮件都束手束脚的地步。我喜欢这样的框架：你的目标是什么？对吧？

I like the she's just gonna conduct us a short experiment with with you. But I do think while she may not have the time or or space to do that, I think what you're asking is to really look at the data and really ask yourself what might be at play here. And I go back to what we were saying earlier of it's helpful to have that lens and to consider it, but not ruminate to the point where you you are paralyzed every time you have to send an email. I like the frame of like, well, what's your goal? Right?

你实际上想达成什么？我认为可能还有另一个问题：实际能实现哪些改变？向一个给她这种反馈的人指出这可能是偏见所致，这会改变她未来是否继续收到这类反馈吗？

What are you what are you actually trying to achieve? And I think there's probably also another question of what is actually achievable in the change. Is pointing out to one person who gives her this feedback that this is maybe informed by bias, is that gonna change whether or not she continues to get this feedback in in the future?

是的。在这种情境下，你可能强烈觉得需要反击偏见。但像这样对一个人说点什么似乎很难改变现状。你可以把这份能量用在其他方式上，比如：好吧，我现在对邮件的事无能为力，或者说出来也无济于事，但我要开始加入员工资源小组，或者每月带女性初级同事吃午餐，多花时间帮助她们进步。

Yeah. And in situations like that too, where you might really feel compelled that you wanna do something to push back on the bias. But it's an instant like this where sort of saying one thing to one person feels very unlikely to change things. You know, you can use that energy and try and go about things in a different way, which is like, okay. I'm not I can't say anything about the email thing now or that's not gonna be helpful, but I'm gonna start working with an employee resource group or I'm gonna take my female junior colleagues out to lunch once a month and spend some extra FaceTime with them and try and do more to help them get ahead.

不同行业可能有不同范例，但你可以反击偏见，而不必每次都当面指出那些可能带有偏见的言论。

I don't know what the right example is in the different industries, but you can push back on bias without it taking the form of I call out every time I see something that someone said to me that seems potentially biased.

我们一直在讨论那些你实际收到负面反馈、遭遇抢功或有人对你采取敌对行为的情况。但我想请教一个我们通讯投稿人提到的情境，那是一种信息缺失的状态。她只能自己猜测发生了什么。这位投稿人参与了我们‘如何获得加薪’的常规专栏，她的小组90%的业务都来自她的贡献。

So we've been talking about situations where you actually receive the negative feedback or there's credit stealing or there's something active happening toward you. But I wanna ask you about a situation we heard from someone who contributed to one of our newsletters where it was sort of this absence of information. And she was sort of left to wonder what was going on. So this was a contributor to our regular series, how'd you get that raise? She was someone who was contributing 90% of the business for her group.

对吧？她的工作产生了不成比例的业务量。然而她的男性经理仍只给她‘符合预期’的评分，这让她百思不得其解。当她反复追问时，对方从不解释，只是回避她的请求。

Right? So an outsized amount or ratio of the business was coming from her work. And yet her male manager was still giving her meets expectations ratings, which just sort of left her to wonder why. And and when she kept asking, he was never giving her an explanation. He would just sort of ignore the requests.

最终被逼问急了，经理竟将她的贡献归为运气——说她只是侥幸获得了那些帮助团队达标的订单。当信息出现这种真空时，人们很容易用‘这肯定是性别偏见’来填补，尤其当你团队中女性寥寥无几时。我们该如何在没有信息的情况下理解现状？又该如何抵抗（或不抵抗）这种编造‘偏见确实存在’故事的诱惑？

And then finally, when really pressed, he dismissed her contributions as sort of lucky. Like she just she got lucky with these orders that had contributed to the team's targets. So when there's sort of that vacuum of information, it is very tempting to fill it with this must be gender bias, especially if you're only one of a few women on a team. How do we make sense when there's not information? And how do we either resist temptation or not resist temptation to make up that story that that bias is really a factor here?

在我看来，这些场景的相似之处远多于差异。所有案例的核心都是这种恼人的模糊性。这里的模糊性源于‘不知道’——不知道经理为何选择这些评分，不知道期望标准是什么，不知道怎样才能获得更高评级。但即使在我们先前的例子里，真正困难的也是这种模糊性：到底是不是我自身的问题？

In my head, there's almost more similarity across these scenarios than there are differences. And at the heart of all of these instances is this nagging ambiguity. Here, the ambiguity is coming from just like not knowing, right? Not knowing why your manager's choosing these ratings, not knowing what expectations are, like what would it take to get the higher rating. But even in our earlier examples, what makes them hard is the ambiguity, which is, is it something I'm actually doing wrong?

是不是我的创意阐述得不如别人清晰？这种‘总能找到非偏见理由’的模式，正是导致解读困境的原因。但它也指向了一个解决方案——至少是未来可用的方法：如何主动减少模糊性？我会尽可能与经理进行前瞻性对话：‘如果三个月后我们开评估会，对你而言怎样的季度表现才算出色？’

Was it me sort of explaining my idea less clearly than the next person? It's that theme of you can always come up for a reason why it wasn't bias. And that's what leads to these, I think challenges in interpretation. But it also points to a solution, at least one that you can use in this environment, maybe going forward, which is what can you do to actually reduce the amount of ambiguity? I would wanna have, to the extent possible, proactive conversations with my manager about, you tell me if a quarter from now when we're sitting down to have this meeting, what would a stellar quarter look like to you?

比如我需要达成什么目标？当然对方可能不愿明说，但只要能让其表态‘这就是我期待的’，我们就可以记录下来。三个月后我会带着这些标准回来讨论：‘上次会议我们谈过这些，现在我想汇报每项的进展。’这样即使无法消除他对你的真实偏见，至少能极大增加他说‘你做得不好’的难度——证据摆在面前，他很难否认你超额完成了共同设定的目标。

Like, what would I have to hit? And look, there may be reluctance there to express something, but to the extent that you can get someone to voice, here's what I'm looking for, sort of, okay, we're gonna write this down. I'm gonna have this in my head, and I'm gonna come back a quarter from now and say, hey, we talked about this at our last meeting, and I wanna sort of tell you where I am on each of these pieces. That's gonna position them, even if you don't debias his true assessment of you in terms of how he sees you, it's at least gonna make it a lot harder for him to say, You didn't do a great job. He will have that evidence in front of him and have a very hard time denying that you've actually exceeded the the sort of goals that you've laid out together.

是的。我常听人说，微歧视或隐性偏见最棘手之处就在于那种‘等等，到底发生了什么’的困惑。显性偏见就好比有人说‘没给你超预期评分因为你是女性’，虽然令人愤怒且恶劣，但至少你清楚面对的是什么。

Yeah. I've heard people talk about one of the really hard parts about microaggressions or subtle biases is that question of like, wait, what's happening here? Sort of overt bias. Someone saying I didn't give you exceeds expectations because you're a woman. As infuriating and frustrating and truly awful that is, you know what you're dealing with.

你不必独自陷入反复思考与消化中。所以我喜欢你的建议，凯蒂，关于我们如何真正减少模糊性，明确双方对成功标准的共识，这样我就不必猜测哪些因素在起作用。

You're not left to do the sort of rumination and processing. So I like your advice, Katie, of like, how do we actually reduce the ambiguity so it's clear between us what we've agreed success looks like so I don't have to wonder what's actually playing into this.

是的。真正明确什么才算超出预期——比如超越期望值，无论那个评级标准是什么。对她而言，获得这种清晰度可能更重要。

Yeah. Really figuring out exactly what would be a above mixed expectations, like surpass expectations, whatever that rating is. It may even matter for her more to get that clarity.

没错。你指的是那项研究：我们常因女性已证实的经验或成就给予奖励，而男性则常因其实现这些成就的潜力获得认可。

Yeah. And you're referring to the research around we often reward women for proven experience or successes, whereas we often reward men for their potential to to achieve those successes.

对。这对她、对人们、对那次晋升都很重要。他们很可能会更看重过往表现

Yeah. It'll be important for her, for people, for that promotion. They're probably gonna look at that past performance

嗯。

Mhmm.

相比她的男性同事，这种倾向可能更明显。

More potentially than her male counterpart.

是的。当我想到被忽视或错过晋升机会时——作为女性会怀疑，没得到晋升是因为性别吗？因为男性常因潜力受赏识。而下一步消除模糊性的方法就是直接问：要获得这次晋升，我需要具体做到哪些事情？

Yeah. When I even think about the you know, being looked over for a promotion or being passed over for a promotion for and a woman wondering, did I not get that because I'm a woman? Because men get tend to get rewarded for the potential. And then I think the next step reducing the ambiguity is asking what do I have to do to get this promotion? Like, what are the specific things?

这需要做很多额外的工作。但如果我们试图不让这种模糊性真正发挥如此大的作用并对我们的职业生涯产生负面影响，这些就是我们需采取的额外步骤。我想到的另一个例子来自我的亲身经历，有一次我在一个会议上演讲时，发现一位背景与我相似的男性演讲者收入要高得多。我思考了很久，是否要向组织者提及此事？最终我决定在未来的谈判中援引公平原则。

It's a lot of extra work to do. But if we're gonna try to sort of not let that ambiguity really play such a big role and negatively impact our career, these are sort of the extra steps that we need to take. One of the other examples that comes to mind from my own experience, which is that I was once speaking at a conference where I found out a male speaker with a similar background to me was making a lot more, getting a lot paid a lot more. And I thought about it for a long time of like, do I mention this to the organizers? Do I And what I sort of ended up deciding to do was to invoke fairness in my future negotiations.

当未来涉及报酬问题时，我会说，我最关心的是获得公平的报酬。这通常意味着与背景相似的男性演讲者同工同酬。所以与其指责对方存在偏见或可能少付报酬，不如明确表示：我希望这是我们共同考虑的问题，对吧？

When the issue of payment came up in future situations, I would say, you know, what I care most about is being paid fairly. And often that means being paid the same as as male speakers with similar backgrounds. So rather than saying, you're biased, you're probably gonna pay less than what. But just making clear like, this is something where I hope we're all thinking about. Right?

某种程度上是在呼吁我们更好的自我——我们都关心女性应为其工作获得公平报酬。我认为这帮助减少了模糊性，因为我不必再猜测。当然我偶尔仍会怀疑，但至少问题已经摆上台面：这是我关心的问题，这是我希望在本次谈判中确保解决的问题。因此让我们都牢记这一点。

Sort of appealing to our better selves of we all care about that women get paid fairly for the work they do. And I think that for me, it helped reduce the ambiguity because I didn't have to wonder. I mean, I still of course sometimes wondered, but at least it was out there of like, this is something I'm concerned about. This is something I wanna make sure we address in in this negotiation. And therefore, let's just all have that in in mind.

是的。当你想到'哦，我现在必须制定更明确的期望并努力减少模糊性'时，这确实是很多额外工作。但我们不能错过这个时机不说：其实每个人都能做这项工作。

Yeah. And it is a lot of extra work when you think about, like, oh, I have to now lay out clearer expectations and try and reduce ambiguity. I don't think we can let the moment go by without saying, like, everyone can do that work.

我

I

猜想你的许多听众其实有能力为他们管理和指导的人减少这种模糊性。我认为这非常有帮助的原因是：当你是个善意的人时，减少模糊性、为自己消除那些摇摆空间，也能降低你成为隐性偏见受害者的可能性。就像你刚才举的例子，如果我有'支付所有演讲者同等报酬'的规则，在分配会议酬金时就不必担心隐性偏见，因为我已有明确的既定规则，这个规则我可以传达给你、所有演讲者甚至偶遇的其他会议组织者，并告诉他们这多么有效。所以我们不必把所有工作都压在试图在这个体系中周旋的女性身上。

am guessing many of your listeners are in a position to actually do some of this ambiguity reduction for people that they manage and for people they mentor. And so, you know, the reason why I think this can be so helpful is that when you are a well intentioned person, reducing ambiguity, cutting out some of that wiggle room for yourself also makes it less likely that you fall victim to those implicit biases. Right? So using your example you just gave us, if I have the rule that I am gonna pay all my speakers equally, I don't have to worry about being implicitly biased when I assign conference payments because I already have a clear rule that I've laid out, and it's one that I can communicate to you and all my speakers and even other conference organizers I bump into, and I can tell them how great this works. So we don't have to put all of this work on the women trying to navigate this system.

我们都可以承担起这份责任。

We can we can all take it on.

是的。我想说的是，当我表达‘我只在乎获得公平报酬，通常意味着与男性演讲者同工同酬’时，得到的反响往往是女性听众的共鸣，她们会说‘我们也关心这个’。之后我只能相信事情确实如此。但把话说出来确实让人如释重负。

Yeah. I will say the reception to my statement of, like, I just care about being paid fairly, which often means being paid the same as male speakers. It's often women who I'm talking with and they're like, oh, we care about that too. I then have to trust that that's what's happening. But it feels relieving to put it out there.

没错。从接收方得到的反馈完全是积极的。因为我并非在指责他们什么，只是表明这是我们共同关心的事，对吧？

Yeah. The reception has been nothing but positive from the people on the receiving end of it. Because I'm not accusing them of anything. I'm just saying this is something we all care about. Right?

对。当你说出‘我在乎公平’或‘我觉得这些决定受到偏见影响’时，确实能提升每个人的意识觉醒。

Yep. There is something about saying, I care about fairness or I feel like these decisions are informed by bias that elevates everyone's awareness.

我特别欣赏这种诉诸公平的方式。产生影响有多种途径，对某些人来说，成为公平的坚定倡导者、表达这些价值观——或者当你已在团队或领域中获得足够资历，能够相对安全地指出问题时。但还有其他方式。我猜有些人可能永远不习惯成为那种热衷揭露此类行为的人。

I love this idea of of appealing to fairness. There are lots of different paths to making an impact. And for some people being that vocal advocate for fairness and sort of expressing those values or, you know, once you've gotten to that place where you do have the seniority within your group, your fields, to be able to call things out without as much risk of repercussion. But there are other ways too. And I would imagine for some of us, it just doesn't feel like you'll ever be the type of person who's super eager to call this behavior out.

我想说的是这没关系，这不是你的责任。如果你能通过自己的方式获得更多权力和控制力，同样能产生影响力——比如达到职业生涯中能塑造理想文化、聘用理想人才的阶段。

And I guess I just want to say that's okay. That's not on you. And if you can navigate and get to a place where you have more power and control, that's gonna be impactful too. Reaching that level in your career where you have more influence to set the culture you wanna set and hire the people you wanna hire.

是啊，米歇尔，你看起来正在思考重要的事情。

Yeah. Michelle, you you look like you're having a big thought there.

确实。我认为关于权力的一个认知是：当人们拥有权力后，记忆往往会变得短暂，有时会忘记曾经的挣扎。人类本就是完美的不完美者。

Yeah. I think I mean, one of the things we know about power is when people have power, sometimes their memories are short. Sometimes they forget about the struggles. Humans, we're perfectly imperfect.

是啊。

Yeah.

突然间，就像，是的，我克服了所有偏见才走到今天，而有时我们的视角会改变。大量数据显示，当你赋予人们权力和地位时，这确实会影响他们的感知和记忆。嗯。所以我认为这一点很重要，需要牢记。

All of a sudden, it's like, yeah, I made it up there through all the biases and and sometimes our lens changes. And there's so much data show that you give people power, you give people status. Sometimes that does impact their perceptions and memory. Mhmm. So I think that's important to keep in mind.

我喜欢建立制度来防止我们自我迷失的理念。

I like the idea of having structures in place to save us from ourselves.

没错。我们容易陷入所有这些认知偏差。有位从事工程行业的听众，她正处于职业生涯中期，几年前给我们发了邮件。这封信让我印象深刻。

Yeah. Right. All of these cognitive biases we're prone to. One of our listeners who actually works in engineering, she's mid career, she emailed us a few years ago. And this has really stuck with me, this this letter.

她觉得自己必须比男同事付出更多才能获得晋升和认可。她告诉自己这可能与性别无关，但直觉告诉她性别因素影响很大，这让她精疲力竭。所以她问，该如何看待这个问题，才能既不过度怀疑自己的感受，又能适当相信直觉，而不是把性别歧视当作借口？这件事让我如此难忘的部分原因是，当我们告诉人们‘假定善意’或鼓励他们‘关注目标’时，我担心会发生某种自我欺骗——比如‘让我们忽略性别偏见吧，因为它太难考量、太庞大或太模糊’。

She feels like she has to do much more than her male counterparts to get the promotions, to get the recognition. She tells herself it could have nothing to do with gender, but her gut is telling her it has a lot to do with gender and it's completely exhausting. And so she's asking, how do I think about this in a way where I feel less like I'm imagining things and I can sort of trust my gut and less like I'm using sexism as an excuse? Part of the reason this stuck with me so much is I worry about when we tell people assume positive intent or when we encourage people to focus on what's your goal. I I worry that there's a little bit of self gaslighting that happens that of like, oh, let's just ignore the gender bias because it's too hard to consider or it's too big or too ambiguous.

关于如何在不否认现实的情况下信任我们对自身遭遇的直觉，有什么想法吗？

Any thoughts about how to trust our gut about what we're experiencing without trying to dismiss the reality of the situation?

是的。我的意思是，有时候我们甚至不了解自己。我们远没有自以为的那样了解自己。所以解读他人行为，并试图根据我们以为他们的意图或真实想法来做决定——有时候连他们自己都不清楚。

Yeah. I mean, sometimes we don't even understand ourselves. We don't know ourselves nearly as well as we think we do. So interpreting others behaviors and trying to make decisions off of what we think they're gonna do or what they really intended or what they absolutely meant. Sometimes they don't even know.

所以我认为我们应该聚焦于目标，验证我们的假设，无论是通过与他人交流，还是回顾过往行为，从而希望能做出更明智的决定。但没人应该认为这些全凭主观臆断。大量研究证明性别歧视、种族歧视以及无意识偏见确实存在，关键在于你如何应对——至少在某些选择上你是有掌控权的。是的，没错。

So I think we focus on goals, we test our assumptions, whether that's with other people or, you know, we look at previous behaviors and hopefully make informed decisions from that. But no one should think that, you know, it's all in their head all the time. There's so much research that shows there is sexism, there is racism, there's unconscious bias, of course, but what you choose to do with that, there's some choices that you have power over at least. Yeah, yeah,

太棒了。非常感谢你和我深入探讨这个话题。希望听众们能和我一样收获良多。谢谢。

Great. Thank you so much for digging into this with me. I hope our listeners take away as much as I have. So thank you.

谢谢。很高兴认识你。

Thank you. Great meeting you.

是啊，我也是。好吧。

Yeah. Same. Alright.

那么艾米，你参与这次对话时确实对某些事感到困惑

So, Amy, you came to this conversation genuinely baffled

嗯。

Mhmm.

关于识别性别歧视的重要性以及一旦发现后该如何应对。这次对话是否帮你理清了思路？

About whether it's important to be able to recognize sexism and how to deal with it once you do. Did the conversation help you work that out?

我确实觉得这让人更清楚了一些。嗯。而且我也觉得没有正确答案，这也是澄清的一部分。对吧？就是没有正确答案。

I do feel like it was a little more clarifying. Mhmm. And I did feel like there's no right answer, which is part of the clarification. Right? Is that there's no right answer.

重要的是要考虑偏见可能扮演的角色。

It is important to consider the role bias might be playing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

把它当作一个过滤器，但别让它成为侵蚀你的东西。嗯。在你试图弄清楚你想如何处理这种情况时。我不知道。你知道，我必须说，艾米，我参加面试时想的是，我想让艾米感到骄傲，因为我知道她对这个问题有点怀疑。你听完后怎么想？

Use that as a filter, but not let that be the thing that eats away at you Mhmm. While you try to figure out what you wanna do about the situation. I don't know. You know, I have to say, Amy, I went into the interview thinking, I wanna make Amy be proud because I know she's a little skeptical about this question. What did you think listening to it?

这一切对你来说都清楚了吗？怀疑。

Was it all clarified to you? Skeptical.

你不必试图让我感到骄傲。但是，我从你的谈话中走出来时感觉，当我问你偏见和愚蠢有什么区别时，我可能过于简化了。我仍然不知道我们是否在谈论一个没有实际区别的区别。

And you don't have to try to make me proud. But, I came away from your conversation feeling as if I had oversimplified when I asked you what difference does it make if it's bias or stupidity. I still don't know if we're talking about a distinction without a difference.

是啊。

Yeah.

但多亏了你，我从中获得了几点洞见，对未来会有所帮助。其中之一就是反复思考是一种极其危险且具有腐蚀性的行为，必须远离它。你说你花了很多个夜晚反复琢磨你描述的那件事。

But I walked away with with a couple of insights, thanks to you, that will help me in the future. One of them is that ruminating is such a dangerous, corrosive activity. You really need to stay away from it. You say you spent many nights ruminating on that situation that you described.

是啊。

Yeah.

那封邮件。我知道，我也容易钻牛角尖。你必须警惕这点，因为它毫无益处。这最终是我从对话中领悟到的——你必须时刻追问目标是什么。

The email. I know. I I can perseverate. You gotta guard against that because it doesn't get you anywhere. And that ultimately was what I took away from the conversation, which is you have to always ask what the goal is.

对吧？没错。调查某人行为是否受偏见影响的目标是什么？当你察觉可能存在偏见时，沟通的目标又是什么？是的。

Right? Right. What is the goal in investigating whether someone's actions are shaped by bias? What is the goal in a communication if you believe you're picking up on bias? Yep.

因此我认为那次对话最终真的非常非常有帮助。

And so I think that ultimately that conversation is really, really helpful.

是啊。而且关于反复思考的观点，源自你在《Ask the Amy's》节目中的评论——别让那个声音成为她脑海里最响亮的。嗯。我们和米歇尔、凯蒂讨论过，这在某种程度上会让你对解决方案关闭心扉。嗯。

Yeah. Well, and I think that point about rumination came out of your comment in our Ask the Amy's episode of like, don't let that be the loudest voice in her head. Mhmm. Which I think what Michelle and Katie and I talked about was that that closes you off to a solution in a way. Mhmm.

对吧？如果你坐在这里不停想着：这是偏见，这是偏见，这是偏见。而这是你唯一能看到的——公平地说，它可能确实是偏见。

Right? If you're sitting here going, this is bias. This is bias. This is bias. And it's all you can see, which to be fair, it might be bias.

但这并不能让你处于一个积极主动、提出解决方案或感觉良好的状态。你只是持续处于这种防御模式中。

But that doesn't put you in a good position to be proactive, to come up with a solution, or to feel very good. You're just in this constant defensive mode.

另外一点，我记得是凯蒂说的，你必须能够区分信号与

And the other thing, I think it was Katie who said it, you have to be able to separate the signal from the

噪音。嗯。

noise. Mhmm.

正如你在对话中指出的，很难理清是什么驱动了某人的行为。而你并不在他们的脑子里。是的，你不知道。但你也不想错过一些重要的反馈。

And as you noted in the conversation, it's hard to tease apart what motivates someone's behavior. And you're not inside their head. No. You don't know. But you don't wanna miss some important feedback.

嗯。如果其中有你应该倾听的信号，你不想错过它。是的。同样地，你也不想相信你以为别人对你有的一切负面想法。没错。

Mhmm. If there's a signal in there you ought to be listening to, you don't wanna miss it. Yeah. Equally, you don't wanna believe every bad thing that you think people are thinking about you. Right.

但你知道，这是自我调节的一部分。是的。你必须懂得如何接收反馈

But, you know, that's part of self regulation. Yeah. You have to know how to take in the feedback

嗯。

Mhmm.

而不让它摧毁你。没错。

Without letting it destroy you. Right.

没错。并且要接受，这可能受到偏见的影响。我需要

Right. And to accept, that might be influenced by bias. What do I need to

怎么做？正是如此。

do? Exactly.

如果它受到偏见影响，我能置之不理吗？是否需要关注其中某些部分？为了在这个环境中取得成功，我是否真的需要放在心上，因为这就是我工作的现状？是的。你知道，我其实有点想从对话中得到一个明确的答案，比如，这就是思考方式。

If it's influenced by bias, can I dismiss it? Do I need to pay attention to some of it? To be successful in this environment, do I need to actually take it to heart because this is the situation in which I'm working in? Yeah. You know, I think I sort of wanted out of the conversation to be fair of like, here's the way to think about it.

思考一下。是的，在这种情况下。不，在那种情况下，你知道，我想要一个决策树。嗯。回想起来，我这么想非常理想化，认为任何与性别偏见有关的事情都会有清晰的决策树。但现在我确实有了一些判断标准，可以说，好吧。

Think about it. Yes, in this situation. No, in this you know, like, I wanted like a decision tree Mhmm. Which in retrospect was very idealistic of me to think that anything doing to do with gender bias would have a clear decision tree. But I did feel like I do have those points now where I can say, okay.

我是否在反复纠结这件事？我的目标是什么？是否需要询问他人，看看他们是否也有同感？你知道，我认为有很多关于如何在不同情况下处理和应对的好建议，因为每次情况都不会相同。

Am I ruminating about this? What's my goal? Do I need to tap into someone else to say, are you seeing this the same way? You know, I think there were a lot of good tips about how to process and deal with this in each circumstance because it's not gonna be the same.

我真希望你收到那封荒谬邮件时给我打了电话。天啊。哇哦。

I wish you had phoned me when you got that ridiculous email. Oh my gosh. Oh, wow.

你不在乎人与人之间的联系吗？

You don't care about human connection?

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。但你能理解为什么这让我困惑不已。天啊。它挑战了你的自我认知，

Yeah. But you can see why that sent me for a loop. My god. It challenged your self perception,

你的自我概念，

your self conception,

我想是的。没错。是的。我当时真的觉得，不。我以此为傲。

I guess. Exactly. Yeah. And I really was like, no. I pride myself on this.

有趣的是，我立刻想到最初删除它时的反应是，你错了。然后我稍微反思了一下，等等，这里面是否有些道理？但根本没有道理。谢谢。谢谢。

And it's funny because I think immediately I thought my initial reaction when I delete it was like, you are wrong. And then I I did a little bit of the exercise of, wait, is there some truth to that? But that's There's no truth to it. Thank you. Thank you.

但是

But

但我很高兴完成了这个练习。真希望我没多走那三步冤枉路。

I but I'm glad I did the exercise. I wish I had not lost those three extra steps.

我本该让你立刻输入这样的回复：我不在乎这种人际连接。发送。

I would have said the response you should type out right now is, I don't care about this human connection. Send.

以上就是本期的全部内容，也是第九季的收官之作。我是艾米·加洛，我是艾米·伯恩斯坦。我们将在

That's our show and the end of season nine. I'm Amy Gallo. I'm Amy Bernstein. We'll be back

三月带着核心课程回归。我们将继续讲解四项技能：建立信任、应对批评、设定并保持界限，以及塑造高管风范。

in March with the essentials. We'll cover four more skills, building trust, handling criticism, setting and maintaining boundaries, and having executive presence.

而到了六月，我们计划推出《如何管理》系列的新四期节目，这次主要面向中层管理岗位的女性。HBR还有更多播客助你管理自我、团队

And then for June, we're planning another four episodes of our series, how to manage, this time geared toward women in middle management. HBR has more podcasts to help you manage yourself, your team,

及整个组织。您可在hbr.org/podcasts收听，或在苹果播客、Spotify等平台搜索HBR。

and your organization. Find them at hbr.org/podcasts, or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

女性网络的编辑制作团队包括阿曼达·克西、莫琳·霍克、蒂娜·托比·麦克、罗伯·埃克哈特、艾丽卡·特鲁克斯勒、伊恩·福克斯和汉娜·贝茨。主题音乐由罗宾·摩尔创作。

Woman Network's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Toby Mac, Rob Eckhart, Erica Trucksler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed this theme music.

感谢收听。我们的收件箱始终为您敞开。访问hbr.org获取《职场女性》相关内容。

Thanks for listening. Our inbox is always open. Women at work at hbr.org.

您还可以通过我们的免费通讯每月将《职场女性》内容直接送达邮箱。请访问hbr.org/email-newsletters进行注册。每月我们将为您提供资源组合、实用建议和个人故事，助您提升自我、不断前行。

And you can get Women at Work in your inbox every month through our free newsletter. Sign up by going to hbr.org slash email hyphen newsletters. Every month, we send you a mix of resources, practical advice, and personal stories to lift you up and move you forward.