那就是我们的节目

大家好。我们有个遗憾的消息要宣布。这将是《职场女性》的最后一期节目。

Hi, everyone. We have some sad news to share. This is going to be our last episode of Women at Work.

是的。这是个艰难的决定，纯粹出于商业考量。但这个决定特别痛苦，因为这档播客长久以来是我生活的重要部分，带给我巨大的快乐。我从中获得了许多满足感。过去八年里，这大概是我做过最有趣的事情。

Yeah. This is a tough one, and it's a decision that I made purely for business reasons. But this was really hard because this podcast has been a big part of my life for a long time, and has given me enormous joy. I've got a lot of gratification out of it. And for much of the last eight years, I guess, it's been the most fun thing I get to do.

所以今天对我来说非常难过。

So this is this is a very sad day for me.

确实如此。这档节目在我们生活中占据重要位置，我知道对听众们也是。所以我们想用这期节目好好聊聊节目的意义，以及我们留下的东西——因为我们不会消失。同时我们要邀请阿曼达·克西，你们偶尔会听到她的声音，但可能从未充分了解她对节目的贡献。

Yeah. It is. And this show has been such a big part of our lives, and I know it's been a big part of our listeners' lives. So we we wanted to take this episode to really talk about what the show has meant and what we are leaving you with because we're not disappearing. But we wanna invite Amanda Kersey, who you hear from occasionally, but what you don't know, I don't think we've ever done justice to the role she plays in this show.

从第一期节目到第一个预告片，她始终在幕后决定嘉宾人选、选题方向，并塑造每期内容。

She has been from the very first episode, from the very first trailer, she has been behind the show deciding who to bring on the show, what episodes we're doing. She shapes those episodes.

是她塑造了这些节目。

She shapes those episodes.

她指导我们。

She coaches us.

天啊

Oh my

这也能叫指导吗？

gosh, is that what it's called?

她折磨着改我的稿子。

Tortures scripts me.

嗨，是的。我就是那个对你们俩发号施令的人。没错。是的。

Hi. Yes. I'm the person who bosses you two around. Yep. Yeah.

这是一个艰难的结局。我们早知道总有一天会结束。当然。但我想说，我们已经建立了一份遗产。我们确实做到了。

This is this is a difficult end. We knew it would end one day. Of course. And we've built a legacy, I'd say. We we really have through.

这不仅仅是一个字面意义上的播客。你看，我面前就摆着我们的出版物——《女性网络》丛书。我们还有艾米·G写的通讯（之前是我写，嗯，再之前是妮可·托雷斯）。我们举办过活动，比如‘女性网络现场’活动。

It's not just a podcast in the literal sense. You know, I'm looking at our books, the Women Network book series right in front of us. We have a newsletter, Amy G, that you write that I used to write Mhmm. That Nicole Torres wrote before me. We have done events, Women Network Live events.

我们还做过什么？通讯，书籍？

We what else have we done? Newsletter, books?

嗯，我们有一个最活跃的收件箱之一。我们有——

Well, we have one of the most active inboxes. We have a

非常活跃的收件箱。

very active inbox.

你们给我们写信，我们回信。我们很喜欢这样。

You all write us. We write you back. We love it.

我其实打算读一些...我们来玩个‘催泪游戏’吧，这样你们——

I'm actually gonna read from some of I'm gonna let's play, like, the crying game so you

别让我哭。我很容易被感动。

don't make you cry. Doesn't take much for me.

确实想强调这个节目产生的影响以及我们收到的一些赞誉。我在Slack频道（我们的女性网络Slack频道）里称之为‘听众的爱’。

Do wanna draw attention to the impact that the show has had and some of the praise that we've gotten. I've called it listener love in our Slack channel, our Women Network Slack channel. Would

我超爱你们的听众来信。

I drop love your listener love emails.

每周伊始我会尝试去做，周末时则分享一些赞美来激励大家，也分享我听到的故事。好，现在我来读几封。最近收到斯蒂芬的来信，她说：我超爱这个播客。

The beginning of the week, I tried to do it, the end of the week, some piece of praise to motivate us and just to share what I was hearing. Okay. So I'm gonna read some. We got this one recently from Steph. She says, I love this podcast.

希望能在生活中找到这样一群女性，像这样讨论工作。但在那之前，这个播客给了我莫大的支持。感谢《职场女性》团队的所有付出——你们的节目始终是我职业生涯起伏中的明亮灯塔，我无比感激。这封是写给米歇尔的。

I hope to find a circle of women in my own life that talk about work like this. But until then, the podcast is such a source of support for me. Thank you to the Women at Work team for all you do. Your podcast has been a constant bright spot for me through the ups and downs in my career, and I'm so grateful for you. That was for Michelle.

这是吉尔写的：首先非常感谢你们的播客，光是它的存在就足以在艰难日子里让我对世界重燃希望。我听了每、一、期、节、目。

Here's one from Jill. She says, first, thank you so much for your podcast. Just its existence is enough on those tough days to make me feel better about the state of the world. I've heard every period, single period, episode, period.

有些还不止一遍。我也是。

Some more than once. Me too.

我想感谢每一位来信的朋友——你们的肯定、建议、故事和脆弱。虽然我们付出很多，但无法言喻这个节目给我的馈赠：首先是和你们及前主持人的情谊，与听众的联结自不必说，甚至包括和我女儿的关系——因为我能和她分享节目，邀请她参与录制。

I mean, I I just thank every single person who wrote in with positive things, constructive things, with their stories, with their vulnerability. I think about how much we give, but I can't express how much I've gotten from this show. I mean, first and foremost, my relationships with you and with the former cohosts, the connections with listeners, obviously, but even, like, my connection with my daughter because I've been able to share episodes with her. I've been able to invite her on the show.

这件事让我意识到：我不害怕表达需求。是你用行动告诉我提出请求没什么大不了——你确实这么教育我的。

And this is something that I did realize is that I'm not afraid to ask for what I want. You raised me with that idea that, like, it's okay to ask for things. You definitely taught that to me.

作为母亲我很骄傲把你培养得勇于争取。但你具体看到我提出过哪些要求，让你觉得这是正常的？

I'm I'm having a proud mom moment of that I raised you to ask for things. But what did you see me ask for that that made you feel comfortable?

很多不同场景。比如我听你打电话给信用卡公司、航空公司等等地方提要求。是通过身教让我明白：想要就该开口争取。

Yeah. A lot of different things. I think I think that it varies from, like, I've heard you on the phone with credit card companies and, you know, airplane companies, like, all these different places just asking for things. Right. It was through example of just seeing you ask for what you want and get it.

我们见证了她的成长。

And we watched her grow up.

我知道。

I know.

我知道。现在她要去上大学了。我还记得她小时候穿着配套的上下装走进来的样子。你还记得吗？

I know. Now she's going off to college. I remember when she was just a little thing and coming in and her matched top and bottom. Do you remember that?

条纹和波点条纹。她那时可爱极了。

Stripes and polka stripes. And she was adorable.

是啊。确实如此。这真是份珍贵的礼物。另一件我收获的礼物是我的声音。我确实听了自己参与的第一期节目。

Yep. Yeah. And it's been a real gift. And the other thing I've gotten is my voice. I did listen to the first episode I was on.

所以你们在我缺席的情况下做了两季节目，这事我已经原谅你们了。但在介绍我出场的那期节目里，我的声音听起来又尖又稚嫩。通过阿曼达娴熟的指导——显然是以你为榜样，因为你一直有着如此有力的嗓音，艾米·B——再加上持续练习，我不仅找到了更沉稳、更有力的声音表达方式，也明确了自己想说什么、想成为什么样的人。

So you did two seasons without me, which I've forgiven you for. But the episode where you introduced me, and my voice sounds squeaky and young. And I just realized through Amanda's adept coaching, obviously modeling you, because you've always had such a strong voice, Amy B. But also just being able to do this all the time. I've found not just a calmer, more assertive voice in terms of how it sounds, but also what I want to say and what I wanna be in the world.

要不要

Should

讲讲这个节目的起源故事？

we tell the origin story of the show?

好啊。把莫琳叫来吧。

Yeah. Let's bring in Maureen.

叫莫琳过来吧。我去找她。

Let's bring in Maureen. I'll go get her.

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那么，莫琳，感谢你加入我们。

So, Maureen, thank you for joining us.

非常高兴来到这里。

So happy to be here.

很合适，因为这是你的主意。

Appropriate since this was your idea.

这确实是我的主意。

It it was my idea.

这绝对是你的主意。只是对我们的观众，我必须说明莫琳之前确实有点否认这是她的想法。

It was absolutely your idea. There just just for our our audience, I need to say that Maureen definitely sort of denied that this was her idea. Her

我真的不得不对你强硬一点。你确实这么做了。

I I really had to come down hard on you. You did.

是的。嗯，

Yes. Well,

谢谢你。

thank you.

这是你的主意。

It was your idea.

可以说，我记得是在2017年。嗯，一个非常具体的时刻，即‘我也是’运动期间，关于性骚扰及女性面临的其他压力的故事层出不穷。而我当时刚升任hbr.org的编辑。

Would say, as I recall, the 2017 Mhmm. A very specific moment, the the Me Too movement, stories of sexual harassment and other pressures women face. And I was newly promoted to the role of editor of hbr.org.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后我开始提议这个想法，比如，我们为何不做个临时播客？天哪，我记得这个。那个临时播客。

And I, you know, started pitching this idea of, like, why don't we do a pop up podcast? Mhmm. Oh my gosh. I remember this. The pop up podcast.

六集。

Six episodes.

对，六集。

Yes. Episodes.

我们即将推出这个新限定系列播客《职场女性》。每六集聚焦一个

We're launching this new limited run podcast, Women at Work. Six episodes each covering one of

我们女性在工作中必须应对的重大议题。

the big issues we as women have to deal with on the job.

比如学会如何表达才能让我们的观点被听见。

Like figuring out how to talk so that our ideas get heard.

女性领导者的挑战以及为何女性难以晋升。我是《哈佛商业评论》编辑艾米·伯恩斯坦。

The challenges of being a female leader and why women aren't advancing. I'm Amy Bernstein, editor of Harvard Business Review.

我是执行编辑莎拉·格林·卡迈克尔。

I'm Sarah Green Carmichael, executive editor.

我是妮可·托雷斯，副主编。加入我们的对话吧。

I'm Nicole Torres, associate editor. Join our conversation.

从那时起，我必须说阿曼达和莎拉真的接过了这个想法并付诸实践

And from there, I have to say Amanda and Sarah really picked up that idea and ran with it

并实现了它

and made it

现在的样子。我告诉阿曼达，我记得在节目早期策划会上，我们还在努力构思——那时候我们只希望能做出一期节目。嗯。然后阿曼达带着一期关于职场打断现象的节目构想回来了。我至今清晰记得当时心想：天啊。

what it is. And I was telling Amanda that I remembered sitting in an early meeting about the show and trying to figure out you know, again, at that point, we were just still hoping to do one episode. Mhmm. And Amanda came back with a sketch of what that episode could look like about interruptions. And I remember so clearly thinking, oh my god.

我们真的能做成这件事。因为她整合的愿景对我来说很有说服力，符合《哈佛商业评论》的定位，我相信观众会有所收获，而且和我们其他内容截然不同。

We're actually gonna be able to do this. Because, like, the vision that she put together made sense to me. It made sense for HBR. I thought it would do something for the audience. It was different from other things we were doing.

比如邀请艾米·B、妮可和

Like getting Amy B and Nicole and

莎拉敞开心扉谈论她们的私人生活与职业生涯。

Sarah to open up about their personal lives and professional lives.

是的。这对我们来说是很大胆的要求，我不确定当时大家是否完全意识到

Yeah. That was a big ask of us that I don't know that everyone totally clocked

当多年后他们了解到关于她们如此多的事情时。

when they got the years later, you know so much about them.

但我永远记得首期节目里妮可说的那句话

But I will always remember our first episode hearing Nicole say

让我们回到

Let's go back for a

九十年代的那几分钟。更多女性进入办公室，逐渐与男性并肩工作或位居其上，而非为其效力。

few minutes to the nineteen nineties. More women were in the office, increasingly working alongside men or above them, not for them.

黛博拉·坦南是一名实习生

Deborah Tannen is an intern

我记得那些首播节目。嗯，首先是

I remember those first shows. Well, first of

我记得那次会议，记得当时在想，

I remember that meeting, and I remember thinking,

这可能会很酷。我在想，不知道谁会来主持这个节目。

well, this could be cool. And I'm thinking, I wonder who will get to host this.

因为莎拉·格林·卡迈克尔作为《Exactly. IdeaCast》的主持人带着多年经验加入，

Because Sarah Green Carmichael came in with years of experience as the host of Exactly. IdeaCast,

我们的招牌节目，我们的重头戏。对。明白吗？旗舰项目。

our marquee our our big pie. Yes. Right? Flagship.

是啊。而妮可和我在麦克风前的经验相当，说白了就是零基础。记得妮可和我当时还往那边张望——

Yeah. And and Nicole and I had an equal amount of experience in front of the mic, which is to say nothing. And I remember Nicole I'm sort of looking over to where

妮可我们曾经

Nicole We used to

把那个位置空着。

left that space empty.

就像，她和我们在一起。

Like, she's with us.

但你还记得看着她逐渐热络起来的样子吗

But do you remember just watching her warm

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

对着麦克风

To the mic

然后变得越来越自在，逐渐展现出真实的自我？这真是值得见证的美好过程。

and become more and more comfortable and sort of come into her own? It was a beautiful thing to to witness.

好吧。你怎么结束那些对话？对话？因为我实在受不了重复两句话。是啊。

Okay. How do you get out of those conversations? Conversations? Because I cannot stress two lines. Yeah.

我用那些话术。我得去拿个你知道的？

I use those lines. I need to go get a you know?

哦，我看到那边有个人需要打招呼。你甚至不用找借口。可以说，很高兴和你聊天，希望下次还能遇见。

Oh, I see someone over there I need to say hi to. You don't even have to make an excuse. You can say, you know, it was great to talk to you. I hope we run run into each other again.

对。对。我常用的说法是'我得走了'，然后真的离开。你走了？我走了。

Yeah. Yeah. Something like my line is I have to go, and then I actually go. You leave? I leave.

哇。

Wow.

是啊。你只需走到房间的另一边。这很有趣。因为想想看。他们会看到你，然后

Yeah. You just walk to a different part of the room. It's fun. Because think about it. They'll see you, and

他们会

they'll

当然知道 你离开了

Of know you course, left

看到你，但他们通常也想继续前进。这不是约会。对吧。

see you, but they know they wanna move on too, usually. It's not dating. Right.

聊得很开心

It was so great to talk

我要再去拿杯饮料。

to you. I'm gonna go get another drink.

和你聊天很愉快。回头见。回头见。不得不说，我们因此建立了美好的友谊。是啊。

It was great to talk to you. See you around. See you around. And I have to say, a wonderful friendship grew out of that. Yeah.

还有和莎拉·格林·卡迈克尔，我认识她，但不像我们现在这样彼此了解。

And also with with Sarah Green Carmichael, who I knew, but I didn't know the way when we all now know each other.

对。我听到一种

Yeah. I I'm hearing a sort

你们分享的两个故事之间有一个共同线索，那就是讨好他人是通往不快乐的道路。

of common thread between the two stories that you guys have shared, which is that people pleasing is the path to unhappiness. It

它确实是个催化剂。这个播客促成了许多非常美好的关系。

it it was a catalyst. This pod has been a catalyst for a lot of really wonderful relationships.

某种程度上很难相信它已经持续了这么久。想想这原本只是个临时起意的点子。对了，我们常给的一个建议是：把某件事当作实验提出来，它就会自然变成永久。播客就是最佳例证。

It's hard to believe it's been going on for so long in a way. Like to think it was a pop up idea. Yeah. By the way, piece of advice we often give is propose somebody as an experiment, and then it will just become permanent. Podcast exhibit A.

概念验证。完全正确。

Proof of concept. Exactly.

但我不知道我们是否想过能做到十季

But I don't I don't know if we ever thought we'd get to ten seasons and

或者讨论这么多话题。我每年都会打印出来，比如这份2019年2月的。你拿那张。

Or to talk about as much as we did. I I printed out, like, every year what we like this one here. Take that's 02/2019. You or you take that.

别给我2020年的。别给我20...哦你给我了2021年的。我要这张。

Don't give me $20.20. Don't give me 20. Oh, you gave me 20. Oh, '21. I'll take that.

回顾我们的历程，我们涵盖了债务、工作、如何避免工作倦怠、邀功的艺术、育儿假、护理和养老问题。我最爱的是

I mean, going through everything we did, we have covered debt and work, how to not do that. We talked about the art of claiming credit, parental leave, caregiving, and elder care. What I love

我们会闲聊。和你们任何人聊天时，谈到困扰我们的事就会说'这可以做成一期节目'。

is that we'll be chatting. Like, and and with any of you, we'll be chatting about something that's bothering us. And we're like, oh, that's an episode. Yes. Yeah.

能随时问'谁是这个领域的专家'真是种享受。那期关于边工作边养育青少年的节目对我就是心理治疗。关键是要思考如何最好地应对混乱而非控制混乱——你无法改变哈珀生活的混乱，但你需要怎样的管理方式才能兼顾工作？

And it's been such a joy to be able to say, who's the right expert? I mean, the the episode about parenting teenagers while working was therapy for me. I think the thing you have to think about is how do I best manage chaos, not controlling chaos? You're not gonna change the chaos of Harper's life. But what kind of management of that do you need so that you can do your work?

不是为了让你能掌控日程表。是的。也不是为了让你能控制我的行动。丹，为什么我不能掌控一切？而我们能有幸邀请到工作母亲研究领域的顶尖学者达娜·格林伯格与我们探讨这个问题，这简直是莫大的荣幸。

Not so that you can control the calendar Yes. Or not so that you That's can control what I'm do. Why can't I control everything, Dan? And the fact that we get to ask Dana Greenberg, one of the foremost researchers on working motherhood, to talk it through with us, it's just it's just an enormous privilege.

我在看2019年。

I'm looking at 2019.

好的。好年份。好年份。

Okay. Good year. Good year.

那是

That's I

我本来想让艾米·G

was gonna let Amy g

加入我们。这是个非常棒的赛季。但我必须说，艾米·G，能邀请你加入这个团队我们真是太幸运了。

join us. It's a really good, great season. But I just have to say, you know, Amy g, we were so lucky to be able to ask you to join this group.

天啊。多么自然的表现。

Oh my gosh. What a natural.

大家好。欢迎你，艾米。欢迎登船，艾米·G。谢谢。这么多艾米啊。

Hi, everyone. Welcome, Amy. Welcome aboard, Amy g. Thank you. So many Amies.

这么多艾米。

So many Amies.

我超级兴奋。我想不出还有谁比我更愿意接手我的份额了。

I'm super excited. I can't think of anyone I'd rather have take my share.

谢谢，莎拉。其实我有点紧张。我想让大家为我感到骄傲。

Thanks, Sarah. I'm actually nervous. I wanna make you all proud.

你不仅早已是我们许多人的内部顾问，更是人际沟通领域的多面手专家。所以谢谢你。

And not only were you already the internal counselor for so many of us here, but also just as an expert in so many things about how people communicate. So thank you.

是啊。

Yeah.

感觉你就像一直在这个节目里一样。

It was like you were always on the show.

没错。我总觉得自己从节目开播就在了——虽然第一期我只是嘉宾。对，你当时在场。

Yeah. I always I like to think I was there since the beginning. Although I was on the first episode as a guest. Yes. You were.

天啊，这么说我真是元老级人物了。必须算上我。等等，2019年我记得第一次做了现场采访，对象是后来成为常客的张莉莉...

Oh my gosh. So I have been here since the beginning. I have to be included. But wait, 2019 was the year we did I think I did my first on the scene interview with Lily Zhang, who became such a regular on

我们自己的成员。我想

our own. I think

管理者最重要的就是直接询问性别多元员工：'我能如何支持你？'比如在首次一对一谈话时说：'我希望帮你获得最佳职场体验，有什么顾虑或需要协助的地方吗？'主动询问就好。

the most important thing for managers at the end of the day is ask your gender diverse employees how you can help. You might say during your first one on one, hey, I wanna help you have the best workplace experience you can. Is there anything that's on your mind? Any way that I can help you out? Just ask.

2019年还发生了什么？

What else happened in 2019?

嗯。

Yeah.

让我想想。好的。2019年，没有伴侣，没有孩子，没有烦恼。这个我也记得。虽然

Let's see. Okay. 2019, no partner, no kids, no problem. I remember that one too. Although

单身无子女的人没有育儿责任这类事务，他们的家庭责任程度也不同。我们的研究确实发现，他们报告了更多的社区参与。他们报告了更多的个人发展，这甚至是在控制了年龄因素后的结果。

single childless people don't have things like childcare responsibilities, they don't have the same level of domestic responsibilities. What we do see in our research is that they are reporting more community involvement. They are reporting more personal development, and that's even controlling for age.

特蕾西·杜马斯，我最近在一次会议上见过她。艾米·B，你拿到的是哪一年的？你面前的是什么？

Tracy Dumas, I saw her recently at a conference. What year do you have, Amy B? What's in front of you?

我拿到的是

Did I get

哦，我是不是给你2020年的了？

oh, did I give you 2020?

我的是2020年。

I have 2020.

2020年。那个四月，我们录制了好几期节目，然后疫情爆发了，接着我们就废弃了

2020. The, the April that we had recorded multiple episodes, and then the pandemic happened, and then we dumped

所有那些节目做得那么好。

all those episodes so well.

我知道。在我女儿的卧室里录制的。

I knew. Recording in my daughter's bedroom.

我记得你在你女儿的卧室里录制。我当时跪在我们家的衣柜里。

I remember you recording in your daughter's bedroom. I was kneeling in our closet.

有时候躲在毯子底下。记得吗？

Under a blanket at times. Remember?

有时候躲在毯子底下。录到一半时我就想，去他的。我坐在家庭办公室的桌前，不在乎声音会不会有回声，因为我的膝盖疼，而且这里又热又闷。

Under a blanket at times. And then halfway through, I just said, screw it. I'm sitting at my desk in my home office, and I don't care if it echoes because my knees hurt We don't want and it's hot.

毯子底下好热。

It's hot under this blanket.

我一点都不舒服。

I am not comfortable.

噢，那段日子确实艰难，但我们还是做出了几期精彩的节目。

Oh, those were those were hard times, but we did some good episodes.

节目内容很棒，而且——天啊——那大概是我最能感受到听众对我们所提供内容迫切需求的时候。

The the episodes were good, and and, boy, did that's probably when I felt the most acute need from our listeners for what we could bring to them.

是啊。知道吗？来，让我再试着把你们弄哭一次。我记得有位听众的留言，她在2020年听了我们《超越拉伸》那期节目后说：今早听完节目我哭了。

Yeah. You know? Here, let me try to make y'all cry again. Because I remember this quote. This is from a woman who listened in 2020 to our Beyond Stretch episode, and she said, I listened this morning and I cried.

我就这么哭了。听到别人用语言描述出我的感受和挣扎，让这些情绪在对话中变得真实——而此前我一直试图对自己轻描淡写。我知道没有简单的答案，也很感激你们没有试图给出任何敷衍的解答。谢谢你们制作这期节目，请保重。

I just cried. Having others say out loud put my feelings and struggles into words and conversation made them real in a way that I had been trying to minimize to myself. I know there are no easy answers and appreciate that you didn't try to provide any. So thank you for this episode. Be safe and well.

这是2020年的杰西卡写的。

That's from Jessica 2020.

啊。希望杰西卡现在过得不错。嗯。

Aw. I hope Jessica's doing well now. Yeah.

我有2021年的。

I have 2021.

是的。哦，是2021年吗？

Yes. Oh, was 2021?

你

You

很有趣，因为我们与埃里卡·特鲁克斯勒和凯文·埃弗斯合作推出了一个关于家庭管理的临时节目，共四集，讲述疫情期间如何与家人共处。

was fun because we did a pop up with family management with Erica Trucksler and Kevin Evers, four episodes about trying to work with a family during the pandemic.

所以我们上次见面是在2020年2月。那时威利才四个月大，所以我刚有个新生儿。而你当时正怀着第二个孩子。

So the last time we saw each other, it was February 2020. Willie was four months old at the time, so I had a newborn baby. And you were expecting your second at the time.

是的。所以，没错，我孕晚期是和克莱尔一起在家，没有日托。克莱尔全天候在家，我也全职工作。我丈夫也是全职工作，他在旅游业，你可以想象情况如何。

Yes. So, yeah, my last trimester was home with Claire without daycare. Claire was around full time, working full time. My husband was working full time. He was in the travel industry, so you can imagine how that went.

所以他也在应对很多

So he also was dealing with a lot of

唉。那些集数太棒了。凯文和埃里卡出色地分享了他们的忧虑和希望。那也是我们推出《精华集》的季节或年份。是的。

Ugh. Those episodes were amazing. Kevin and Erica did a wonderful job sharing their worries, hopes. That was also the season or the year we introduced the Essentials episodes. Yes.

我们和出色的特蕾丝·休斯顿合作制作了第一集关于给予反馈的内容。

We did the very first one on giving feedback with Therese Houston, who was wonderful.

还有那位校长。哦，我太喜欢她了。

And that school principal. Oh, I loved her.

棘手之处在于，员工常常会来找杰西卡说：‘能给我的教学一些反馈吗？’杰西卡当然答应，但她以为对方想要某种反馈，实际上员工需要的是另一种。所以我对校长、杰西卡或任何管理者的建议是：‘我很乐意提供反馈。目前对你最有帮助的是哪方面的反馈？’

The tricky part is all too often, employees will come in saying, you know, Jessica, could you give me some feedback on my teaching? And Jessica's like, of course. And Jessica assumes they want one kind of feedback when they really want another. So the advice I would have for principals, for Jessica, for anyone in a management role would be to say, I'd love to give you some feedback. What would be most helpful to you right now?

你是想听我夸赞你工作中的亮点？需要一些指导建议？还是想知道自己的表现处于什么水平？

Do you want me to let you know what I love about your work? Would you like some coaching and advice? Or do you wanna know where you stand?

在那个系列中，我们通过一位女性个体的生活、工作背景来了解相关技能，

In that series, we got to learn about skills through the context of an individual woman's life and her job and

没错。

Yeah.

以及她的优先事项和关切点。

Her priorities and concerns.

是的。2021年也是我们可以小小炫耀的一年——我们节目邀请到了诺贝尔奖得主

Yeah. That was also 2021 was also the year we can brag a little. We had a Nobel Prize winner

克劳迪娅·戈尔丁。

on our show. Claudia Golden.

经济学家克劳迪娅·戈尔登，她谈到了贪婪型工作，以及女性面临的诸多不平等问题其实源于我们的工作岗位设计方式。

Claudia Golden. Economist Claudia Golden about greedy work and how so many of the inequities that women face are about the way we structure jobs.

愿意全天候工作——包括夜晚、周末、假期，随时待命的员工会获得丰厚回报。这些回报可能与投入的时间不成正比，意味着工作时间翻倍带来的收入增长会超过两倍。

An employee who is willing to work at all hours, in the evenings, weekends, vacations, is on call at the office, is the worker who gets big rewards. These rewards can be disproportionate to the amount of time put in, meaning that doubling the number of hours more than doubles the earnings.

对。我们（准确说是我）采访她时，她还没获得诺贝尔奖。

Yeah. She wasn't a Nobel Prize winner when we enter when we, meaning I, interviewed her.

是的。但但你是但我想是那次访谈打动了诺贝尔奖委员会。嗯，正是这样

Yeah. But But you but it was the interview, I think, that tipped the Nobel Prize committee. Well, that's exactly

我正要说这个。没错。

where I was going. Yeah.

不客气，克劳迪娅。

You're welcome, Claudia.

而2021年2021年是艾米丽·考尔菲尔德作为主持人加入我们的那一年。

And twenty twenty one twenty twenty one was the year that Emily Caulfield joined us as a host.

是啊。艾米丽。哦，艾米丽。

Yeah. Emily. Oh, Emily.

所以我原本真心希望在我们这次对话前能完成些大事。虽然还没达成，但我每天都在为热爱的事业努力。这感觉很好。有你们在这儿等我真的很开心。

So I was really hoping that I was gonna have completed something huge by this time that we had this conversation. And I haven't yet, but I had worked on my passion projects every day. So that's felt good. I was really happy to have you guys here waiting for me.

我们确实。我们一直在等。

We were. We were waiting.

艾米丽上周还在我家后院做客呢。

Emily was at my house last week hanging out in the backyard.

艾米丽最近怎么样？

How's Emily doing?

非常好。又创业了。艾米丽是企业家、艺术家、设计师、社区建设者，现在剑桥有间工作室做工作坊。我还在那儿学会了做蜡烛

Very well. Started another business. Emily is an entrepreneur, artist, designer, community builder, and she has a studio in Cambridge now where she does workshops. I learned how to make candles

和艾米莉一起。有趣。

with Emily. Fun.

确实有趣。我对艾米莉加入播客的核心记忆是，由于疫情，我们的第一次见面是在一个公园里。

It is fun. My core memory of Emily joining the podcast was that our first meeting, because it was pandemic, was in a park.

是的。您正在收听《职场女性》，我们正坐在户外。

Yes. You're listening to Women at Work, and we are sitting outside.

经过数月的分离，我们终于一起在户外了。而且我们有了新成员，我们的HBR同事艾米莉·考尔菲尔德，她是我们的新联合主持人。

We're outside together, finally, after months of being apart. And we've got a new person with us, our HBR colleague, Emily Caulfield, who's our new cohost.

非常感谢。能坐在你们两位身边参与这个节目，我激动不已，简直不敢相信这是真的。

Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be sitting beside the two of you for this show, and I cannot believe it's real.

我会想念艾米莉的。

I'm gonna miss Emily.

我有2022年。

I have 2022.

好的。

Okay.

发生了什么在

What happened in

带我们回到。

the Take us back.

好的。哦，那一年我们推出了《和睦相处》系列。对，是艾米·加尔多的作品。我的书也出版了。

Okay. Oh, that was the year we introduced the Getting Along series Oh, yeah. By Amy Galdo. My book came out.

是啊。就是

Yeah. That's

这样。没错。书中讲述了如何与职场中难相处的人打交道。乔治对每件事都充满防备，攻击每一个想法。所以我总在考虑，值得开口吗？因为得到积极回应的概率有多大？还是说回家后要对着枕头尖叫一小时？

right. Yes. Talks to people dealing with difficult people at work. George is so defensive about everything and attacks every idea. So then I'm just constantly considering, okay, is it worth it to say anything because what's the likelihood of getting a response that will feel good versus a response where I'm gonna go home and scream into a pillow for an hour?

当时我们还为这本书举办了现场活动。我记得有位女士——我们向所有到场者致谢时，签书队伍排得很长。她排到最前面时说：‘我要和刚才排队时认识的三个陌生人去喝一杯。’

And that was we did a live event around the book too. And I remember that my memory from that is that there was this woman. We had a thank you to everyone who came. There was a nice long line for me to sign books. And this woman got to the front of the line, and she said, I'm going out to drinks with the three people I just met in line waiting to have a book signed.

后来她发邮件说打算每月聚会。四个素不相识的人在签书队伍中相遇，发现彼此有聊不完的话题，决定每月见面，因为他们都住在波士顿。太棒了。确实。

And she emailed us and said, we're gonna meet monthly. There were four people who had never met before, met in that line, and said, we had so much to talk about, and we're gonna meet monthly because we all live here in Boston. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah.

那年也体现了我们内容的广度和受众多样性。比如一集讲初任管理者的起伏，下一集讨论‘你开始考虑退休了吗？’，接着是‘当伴侣不给力时’和‘兼顾工作与子女心理健康’。我们还涵盖了很多内容，比如如何在公司推动政策改革——这其实适用于任何职业阶段。

That was also a year that exemplifies the scope of what we covered and who we made episodes for. Like, one episode was the ups and downs of being a first time manager. And then the next episode, I think, was have you started thinking about retirement? And then there's a when your partner isn't giving you the support you need and working while managing your child's mental health. Like, we covered so men how to push for policy changes at your company, which is, you know, you could do at any point in your career.

我们确实呈现了女性经历的多样性。

But we really spoke to the breadth of women's experiences.

嗯。从听众调查中我们知道，大家年龄、经验水平和行业背景各不相同。我们始终努力覆盖尽可能多的人群，同时提供针对性建议。我最喜欢的其中一集是关于男性主导行业的生存之道。

Mhmm. Yeah. And that's I mean, we know from our audience surveys that the range of ages and experience levels and different industries that you all come from. And we've always tried to speak to as many of you as possible while also giving the advice you need for what you're facing. I think one of my favorite episodes was about working in a male dominated career.

这是经常被问到的话题。我们采访了欧林工程学院的学生（该校男女比例均衡）以及他们的教授。

It's something we get asked about all the time. We got to talk to students from Olin, which is an engineering school that has an even number of male and female students. We got to talk to their professor.

我确实读了硕士，后来在航空航天公司找到工作，遇到一位出色的女性导师，总体体验不错——虽然有些部门对女性不太友好，比如机械车间。

I did go for the master's, and then I found this job at the aerospace company where I had a fantastic female mentor and and had generally a good experience, which is a funny thing to say because there were pockets that were a harder space to be in as a woman. So the machine shop.

是啊。我特别喜欢我们每次外出实地考察的时候。

Yeah. I loved any time we went out into the field.

对。没错。

Yeah. Yeah.

好了。我要在2022年这里打断一下，因为我们还有些临别赠言要表达，还有些感谢和最后的告别要说。所以我想留出时间来完成这些，毕竟我在负责制作你们的内容。

Alright. I'm gonna cut us off at twenty twenty two because we have some parting words of advice, and we have some gratitude to express and final farewells. So I want us to have time to do all that because I'm producing you.

最后一次对我们发号施令了。最后一次。

Bossing us around one last time. One last time.

所以这期节目之前播出的是《艾米问答》环节。

So the the episode that came out before this one was in Ask the Amy's.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你们回答了七位通讯订阅用户和听众的提问。之后又收到了一些新问题。我们无法全部解答，但会挑选几个。莫琳将协助我朗读问题，然后你们两位可以给出建议。第一个问题来自一位女性高管。

You took on seven questions from newsletter readers, from our listeners. Since then, some more have come in. We can't get to all of them, but we're gonna get to a couple. And Maureen's gonna help me read the questions, and then you two can, you know, give your advice. This first one is from a woman who she's an executive.

她在一家小型科技初创公司工作已有数年——实际上自2018年我们播客开播时就在那里。她最初受聘负责人力运营，后来逐渐接手人力资源运营，现在还负责财务工作。

She works at a small tech startup. She's been there for several years. Actually, she's been there since our podcast started, 2018. She was hired to lead people operations. And over the years, she's come on to lead HR operations and now finance.

她并非会计出身，但在去年十二月被告知，如果能在第一季度完美完成某些财务任务，将获得奖金。她说：'我知道这很难，但仍承诺全力以赴，也确实做到了。我努力学习、建立流程、提出正确问题。'她继续写道：'但我独自承担这一切。月末结账常需CEO提供数据，可他的反馈往往要拖延数周。'

She's not an accountant, but in December, she was told she would receive a bonus if she flawlessly completed some finance tasks in Q1. She said, I knew that was unlikely, but I committed to doing my best, and I have. I've worked hard to learn, build processes, and ask the right questions. She goes on to write, but I'm doing this alone. I often require input from my CEO to complete the month end close, but his responses, when they come, can take weeks.

公司仍要求我在前四个工作日内完成账目结算。这根本是让我注定失败的标准——假设我拥有充分资源和支持，实则不然。团队会议上总说我很'受重视'（她加了引号），但日常工作中感受不到。作为副总裁，我甚至被排除在董事会会议之外。

I'm still expected to close the books within the first four business days. I'm set up to fail yet held to standards that assume I'm fully resourced and supported. The truth is I'm not. I'm often told in team settings that I'm valued, she puts that in quotes, but I don't feel it in my day to day experience. I've been excluded from board meetings despite being a VP.

我是公司里唯一的女性，也是唯一非工程师出身的人。这里感觉像个男生俱乐部，越来越像我不该待的地方。我和CEO一样高度重视透明与坦诚——至少他曾经如此。但不知从何时起，这种信任逐渐瓦解。我们不再进行有意义的沟通，我只能不断猜测、质疑，并为可能发生的事情做准备。

I'm the only woman in the company and the only person who is not an engineer. It feels like a boys club and increasingly like a place where I don't belong. I deeply value transparency and candor as does my CEO or at least he used to. But somewhere along the way, that trust eroded. We no longer communicate in a meaningful way, and I'm left guessing, questioning, and bracing for what's next.

我仍然独自支撑着人力资源、运营和财务部门。我没有真正意义上的假期，因为离开时无人能接替我的工作。所以即便休假，我也始终处于待命状态，已经多年没有彻底放松过了。

I'm still holding up HR, operations, and finance. I don't take real vacations. There's no one to step into my role when I'm away. So even when I do take time off, I stay tethered. I haven't truly unplugged in years.

我57岁了。我知道自己为工作带来了丰富的经验、热忱和韧性，但也清楚这个年龄段的就业市场有多残酷。现在的我情绪很脆弱，总觉得随时可能被解雇——因为CEO想要的会计技能，那些我当初根本就不是被雇来掌握的技能。

I'm 57. I know I bring a great deal of experience, heart, and resilience to my work, but I also know how tough the job market can be at this stage. And right now, I'm emotional. I feel like I could be let go at any moment because I don't have the accounting skills he wants, the CEO. Skills that I was never hired to have in the first place.

我感觉被抛弃了。我感到悲伤，正在哀悼这个我曾经深信不疑的工作环境。你怎么看？这让我心碎

I feel discarded. I feel sad, and I'm grieving a workplace I used to believe in. What do you think? Breaks my

这确实很糟糕。她完全是被设定成失败的局面。任何以完美完成任务为前提的诱惑...嗯...都堪称残忍。

Well, it's terrible. Yeah. And she has been set up to fail. And any enticement that is conditioned on flawless completion of the task Mhmm. Is just cruel.

没错，太恶劣了。她在人力资源、运营和财务领域拥有深厚的经验和理解力，在市场上绝对价值连城。

Yeah. That's terrible. Yeah. Is a person with deep experience and understanding. In HR, operations, and finance, she's worth her weight in platinum on the market.

是啊，她真该去市场上验证自己的价值。

Yeah. She ought to go out there and test it.

对，而且我觉得她把离职设想成一种失败。

Yeah. And I think she's setting up the idea of leaving as a failure.

以及一种背叛。

As and as a betrayal.

没错，既是背叛也是她的失败。但如果离职是她职业生涯的下一步呢？因为她已经积累了这么多经验，完全有能力为真正欢迎她的组织贡献更多价值。

Right. A betrayal and a and a failure on her part. What if leaving is a next step in her career because she's gained so much and she has more to offer to an organization that will welcome her?

从任何意义上来说，她都没有失败。

She hasn't failed in any sense of the term.

不。我想她可能会从中得到一些建议。如果她收听我们2024年的那期《如何在职业生涯中期跃迁》，虽然那期讲的是跨行业转换，但对那些非常忙碌且精疲力竭的人也有很好的建议。怎么找到新工作？

No. I think she might find some tips in it. If she listens to our twenty twenty four episode, how to leap mid career, that episode is about from one industry to another. But there's some good advice for people who are really busy and burned out. How do you find a new job?

就是如何挤出时间。是的。因为她已经忙得不可开交了。

Just how to make the time. Yeah. Because she's got a full plate.

是啊。请休个假吧。拜托了。好的。

Yeah. Take a vacation, please. Yeah. Please. Okay.

莫琳，你来介绍下一个问题。

Maureen, you're gonna introduce the next question.

好的。这个问题的主题是‘为下一份工作做准备’。提问者是一位女性，她在1月份遭遇大规模裁员，离开了她所谓的梦想职业道路。她说之前的工作虽不完美，但为她在那家公司长远发展奠定了基础。

Okay. So this question has the subject line preparing for the job after the job. And it comes from a woman who was part of a large layoff in January from her what she calls her dream career path. And she says the job she was doing wasn't perfect, but it was laying the groundwork for the next steps of what she saw as a really long career with that company. You know?

她喜欢那里的同事、文化和行业。一切都很顺利，结果她被裁员了。现在她找到了一份她说还行的工作，但当前就业市场确实很艰难。

She liked the people. She liked the culture, the industry. Everything was going great. She gets laid off. So now she's taking a job that she says is fine, and it is a tough market right now.

她看到了一些潜力，但这并不是她真正想待的地方。她的问题是：你们能否提供建议，告诉我如何在这份工作中尽力而为，同时为跳槽到其他机会做准备？我试着看到积极的一面，这个职位会迫使我去提升自己的高管气质，并让我获得半政府性质的工作经验。

She sees some potential, but it's not really where she wants to be. Her question is, can you offer advice for how to exist and do my best in this job, but also lay the groundwork to leave for a different opportunity? I'm trying to see the positives. I think this role will force me to work on my executive presence and give me experience in a semi government workplace.

我认为她已经做了所有正确的事情，比如关注这份普通工作的积极面，同时也思考这份工作有哪些不适合她的地方。是行业不对？职位不对？还是薪资不对？

So I think she's already doing all the right things in terms of focusing on the positive of this just okay job. But also thinking about what isn't working for her for this job. Is it not the right industry? Is it not the right role? Is it not the right salary?

到底是哪里不合适？她还提到想做一些志愿工作，这是接触其他事物的好方法，也可以拓展人脉。

What is it that's not working? And do the things. Mean, she mentions later in the letter that she wants to maybe do some volunteering. That's a great way to be exposed to other things. Do some networking.

就是要始终保持学习的心态。我能从中学到什么？另一件事是，你也能从负面经历中学习。也许这份工作正在教你什么是你不想要的，而这同样重要。

Like just have that learning mindset all the time. What can I get from this? And the other thing, you can learn in the negative. Meaning, maybe this job is teaching you what you don't want. And that's just as important.

明白吗？

You know?

我完全同意你的观点。

I totally agree with you.

绝妙的建议。毫不意外。可惜你们俩以后不能定期做这个了。

Excellent advice. No surprise. It's it's a bummer you two won't be doing this regularly anymore.

是啊。不过可以在咖啡店找到我。我会给任何提问的人建议。当然，所有‘问艾米’的往期内容都在节目存档里，这个节目会通过那些档案继续存在。

Yeah. But find me in coffee shop. I give out advice to anyone who asks. But, of course, all the ask the Amy's that we've done are in the feed. And the feed the show is gonna live on through that through that archive.

你可以随时收听错过的任何一集，或者重温你最喜欢的几集来解思念之苦。买我们的书吧。买我们的书。

You can always listen to any of the episodes you missed. Re listen to some of your favorites if you're missing us. Buy our books. Buy our books.

它们就摆在我们面前。没错。更高阶的谈判技巧。对。作为领导者，你要敢于发声，掌控自己的职业发展。

They're right in front of us. Yep. Next level negotiating. Yeah. You, the leader, speak up, speak out, taking charge of your career.

那本书叫什么名字来着？

What's that name? Book.

《和谐相处》和《哈佛商业评论指南：应对冲突》。

Getting Along and the HBR Guide to Dealing with Conflict.

对，没错。《哈佛商业评论指南：应对冲突》。是的，我得自己说出来才能记住。

Yeah. Right? HBR Guide to Dealing with Conflict. Yes. Have to say it myself to remember it.

HBR还拥有许多其他资源，比如《IdeaCast》播客、Muriel Wilkins的播客以及《Coaching Real Leaders》。

And HBR has so many other resources. The IdeaCast, Muriel Wilkins podcast, Coaching Real Leaders.

我是说，订阅HBR是了解我们所有人以及我们在这里所做工作的绝佳方式。

I mean, a great way to keep up with all of us and the work that we're doing here is to subscribe to HBR.

我们也有一个新的产品。对吧，Yeanne？

We have a new offering too. Right, Yeanne?

那就是《HBR Executive》，它面向C级高管和资深领导者，核心是我们的特约编辑、前主编Adi Ignatius撰写的新闻简报。内容包括网络研讨会、实用指南和大师课程。那些大师课程非常棒，我从Nitha Noria那里学到了很多关于日程管理的知识，尽管我不是CEO。

It's HBR Executive, which is geared towards the c suite, very senior leaders, anchored by a newsletter from Adi Ignatius, our editor at large, former editor in chief. And it includes webinars and playbooks. Masterclasses. Masterclasses, which are fantastic. I learned a lot about managing my calendar from Nitha Noria, even though I'm not a CEO.

你应该去看看，只需访问hbr.org就能找到。

And you should check it out. You just go to hbr.org and find it.

《HBR Executive》是我在《Women of Work》结束后将要参与的一个项目。我希望这个听众群体能帮助塑造新闻简报、网络研讨会以及其他相关内容。所以，如果你是高管并想在这里发挥影响力，请通过LinkedIn留言或发送邮件至women@workathbr.org告诉我，这样我就能把你加入我的联系人列表，方便后续电话、邮件联系或实地观察你的工作。

That's a project hbr executive is a project that I'm gonna be working on after Women of Work is done. Yeah. And I want this audience to help shape the newsletter and the webinars and anything else related. So if if you're an executive and you wanna have influence here, please say so through a LinkedIn note. You can connect with me or an email to women@workathbr.org so I can add you to my list of sources so I can call you, email you, shadow you at your job.

对，没错。当你发邮件到women@workathbr.org时，你会收到自动回复，里面包含按主题分类的听力和阅读清单。所以尽管联系我们，你会收到这些资料。

Yeah. Yeah. And if and when you email women@workathbr.org, you'll get our auto response, which is gonna include listening and reading lists by topic. So feel free to reach out to us. You'll get that.

就像我最开始说的，我们不会消失。请在LinkedIn上联系我，也可以访问我的个人网站amyegallo.com，在那里订阅我的个人新闻简报。我希望能与尽可能多的你们保持联系。

And as I said at the very beginning, we're not disappearing. Connect with me on LinkedIn. Please go to my personal website, amyegallo.com. You can sign up for my personal newsletter there. I'd love to stay in touch with as many of you as possible.

我想感谢每一位参与节目并分享智慧的嘉宾，感谢每一位来信分享故事、帮助我们确定内容和方向的听众。

So I I wanna say thank you to every guest who has joined us and shared her wisdom, to every listener who wrote in to share her story, and who helped us figure out what to cover and how.

我们还要感谢编辑和制作团队的其他成员，我们的副制片人Hannah Bates。测试。测试。

We're grateful to the rest of our editorial and production team, our associate producer, Hannah Bates. Testing. Testing.

需要我继续讲吗？哦，没关系。你表现得很棒，完全有剪辑空间，素材足够剪辑。

Do want me to keep talking? Oh, it's fine. You were great. Like, totally editable. Plenty to edit around.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以这期由你主持，我来配合。哦，真令人兴奋。没错。

So you're hosting this one, I am. Oh, exciting. Yeah.

我们的工程师蒂娜·托比·麦克。

Our engineer, Tina Toby Mac.

如果看起来录音不存在，别慌。你能给我念点什么吗？或者聊聊万圣节多精彩、早餐多美味、你有多爱这件卫衣？这样我就能把录音发给阿曼达，因为我觉得你声音很棒。你天生适合这个，绝对是个天生的播客人才。

So if it looks like the recording isn't there, don't panic. Do you have something you can read for me or just wanna tell me how great Halloween was or breakfast or how much you love your sweatshirt so I can send this to Amanda because I think you sound pretty good. You're a natural. You're totally a natural.

我们的音频产品经理伊恩·福克斯，以及后期制作专家罗伯·埃克哈特。我们也要感谢所有曾为节目付出过的人。首先要特别提到——

Our audio product manager, Ian Fox, and our post production specialist, Rob Eckhart. We're also grateful to everyone who's ever worked on the show. First and foremost,

莎拉·格林·卡迈克尔，她是创始联合主持人之一。她离开后，我需要填补很大的空缺。妮可·托雷斯曾在这个录音室与我们共事多年。亚当·巴克霍尔兹是我们的创始音频产品经理，他帮助节目落地成型。

Sarah Green Carmichael, who was one of the founding cohosts. Big shoes for me to fill when she left. Nicole Torres, who sat in this room with us for many years. Adam Buckholz was our founding audio product manager. He helped bring the show to life.

将内容传递到每位听众的耳边，推送至所有订阅源。我们非常想念亚当。艾米丽·考尔菲尔德在疫情最严峻时期为节目作出重要贡献，真正为我们的对话带来了光亮。还有埃里卡·特鲁克斯勒，你们在节目中听过她几次分享产假经历，她曾是我们2021年短篇精品系列《家庭管理》的联合主持人。

Get it out to all of your ears, into all of the feeds. We miss Adam a lot. Emily Caulfield was such an important part of the show during deep pandemic days and really brought some light to to our conversations. And Erica Trucksler, who you've heard a few times on the show, she's been a guest, talking about maternity leave. She was the cohost of our short but sweet 2021 series, Family Management.

她与霍莉·鲍尔共同担任过节目笔记编辑和新闻简报编辑。埃里卡始终是节目的忠实粉丝和全方位支持者。

And she has been our show note editor, our newsletter editor along with Holly Bauer. And Erica's also just been a fan and all around supporter of the show.

显然我们此刻心怀满满，对各位的信任、时间投入和声音表达深表感激。谢谢大家。

It's clear that we're leaving with very full hearts and and the deepest gratitude for your trust and your time and your voices. So thank you.

谢谢。非常感谢。

Thank you. Thank you very much.

谢谢。

Thank you.