你能为刚毕业者的事业带来的不同

您正在收听的是《哈佛商业评论》的《职场女性》。我是艾米·加洛。回想一下你大学毕业后的第一份工作。我的是在一家小型非营利机构做项目经理。虽然我非常有条理，擅长推进工作——这项技能是我在本科那些折磨人的小组作业中磨练出来的——但我也过于自信，没有意识到我需要更微妙的技能，比如如何写一封能让别人按我意愿行事的邮件，或者如何把执行董事做出的决定传达给我的同事。

You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo. Think back to your first job out of college. Mine was working as a program manager for a small nonprofit. And while I was incredibly organized and good at moving work forward, a skill I'd honed as an undergrad in those torturous group projects, I was also overconfident and unaware of the more nuanced skills I needed, like how to write an email that would get people to do what I wanted them to or how to relay a decision the executive director had made to my peers.

我缺乏人际交往能力，而这些能力无疑会让我在那份工作中更快乐、更高效。我的意思是，为什么我在大学里没有学到，获取所需反馈、建立信任、设定界限，都是成功和晋升不可或缺的一部分？为什么这些技能没有出现在课程里？既然学术界如此执着于职业准备，为什么大学培养出的毕业生，雇主却表示在沟通和批判性思维等方面未能达到他们的期望？这正是美国学院与大学协会在2023年对高管和招聘经理进行调查时发现的结果。

I didn't have the interpersonal skills that undoubtedly would have made me much happier and more effective in that job. I mean, why didn't I learn in college that getting the feedback I needed, building trust, setting boundaries, are all part and parcel of success and advancement. Why weren't those skills in the curriculum? With academia's fixation on career readiness, why are colleges still graduating students who employers say fall short of their expectations in areas like ability to communicate and think critically? That's what the Association of American Colleges and Universities found when it surveyed executives and hiring managers in 2023.

当全国高校与雇主协会（NACE）在2024年对人力资源总监和经理进行调查时，也得出了类似的发现。如果教授、职业顾问以及像你我这般的资深专业人士不让学生了解职场的现实，我们就有可能在未来领导者还未起步时就失去他们。因此，当西南偏南教育创新大会（专注于教育领域的创新会议）邀请《职场女性》主持一场会议时，我们决定探讨如何弥补这些差距。无论你是正在教大学生、身为父母，还是管理着刚入职的新人，我希望本期节目能让你更清晰地了解职场早期女性在那关键的几年里面临什么，以及你可以如何提供帮助。

And when NACE, the National Association of Colleges and Employers, surveyed HR directors and managers in 2024, they had similar findings. If professors and career counselors and experienced professionals like you and me don't clue students into the realities of work, we risk losing future leaders before they even get started. Which is why when the organizers of South by Southwest edu, the innovation conference focused on the education sector invited women at work to host a session. We decided to talk about how to address these gaps. Whether you're teaching college students, parenting one, or managing someone who just landed their first job, I hope this episode gives you a clearer picture of what early career women are up against in those first few make or break years of work and how you can help.

毕竟，我们都能在让那几年对年轻女性来说更易驾驭、更公平、更有力量方面发挥重要作用。你即将听到的这场对话是在奥斯汀的西南偏南教育大会现场录制的。大家好吗？我很高兴邀请到两位嘉宾，她们长期关注年轻女性步入职场阶段的生活以及她们茁壮成长所需的条件。

After all, we all have a powerful role to play in making those years more navigable, equitable, and empowering for young women. This conversation you're about to hear was taped live in Austin at south by southwest e d u. Hi, y'all. How's everyone doing? So I'm excited to be joined by two guests who think a lot about this phase of young women's lives and what they need to thrive when they enter their careers.

我的两位嘉宾都来自德克萨斯，德州加油。内塔·努鲁齐是圣安东尼奥德克萨斯大学的建筑学教授，她参与创建了一个由学生领导的建筑组织，就在她所在的院系。艾米·劳恩是德克萨斯女子大学职业联络中心的主任，同样长期思考我们如何为女性进入当今职场做好准备。我将先向内塔和艾米提问：当你初入职场时，有哪项技能让你惊讶地发现自己并不具备、也没人告诉你是必需的，却立刻变得至关重要？内塔，先从你开始。

My two guests are both Texas based, go Texas. Neta Neruzzi is an architecture professor at the University of Texas San Antonio, and she helped create a student led organization in architecture, the department that she is part of. Amy Lawn is the director of the Texas Women's University Career Connections Center, and again, thinks a lot about how do we prepare women for today's workforce. I'm going to start with Neta and Amy, and I want to ask, what is a skill that you were surprised when you first started in the workforce that you did not have, no one told you was necessary, but became critical right away? Netta, we can start with you.

有很多。但我——

There are a lot. But I

我觉得最主要的一项是——我在伊朗长大，要知道，在伊朗身为女性，做个“好女孩”、温柔、安静是很重要的。所以在美国职场，自信地在会议上发言是我花了一段时间才掌握的，或者说，在会议中开口本身就很困难，尤其是客户会议。幸运的是，我有一位很棒的女上司，她经常把话语权让给我，会说：“内塔，你跟我提过你的想法，为什么不跟某某先生或女士分享一下？”但即便如此，我仍然记得我的声音总是发抖，我总怀疑自己说错了、说得不对，或者我可能了解得不够。

think my main one so I grew up in Iran and, you know, being a woman in Iran, it was a big deal to be the good girl, being soft spoken and quiet. So being in the workforce in America, speaking confidently in meetings was something that took me a while to get a handle of or even speaking in general in meetings, especially with client meetings. Now, it was lucky that I had a supervisor who was a wonderful woman and often gave me the floor and would say, Well, Neta, you told me about your idea. Why don't you share it with mister or missus, you know, so and so? But even then, I still remember my voice would always shake and I always doubted myself that I'm saying something wrong or I'm saying something that's not correct and I might not just know enough.

所以我认为自信地发言是最主要的一项。

And so I think speaking confidently was the main one.

嗯。但我猜你在大学课堂上是会发言的吧？区别在哪里？

Yeah. But I assume you spoke up in classes during university. What was the difference?

其实没有。对，我就是那种总坐前排、记笔记的学生，除非被点到，否则我一句话都不会说。

Actually, didn't. Yep. I was the student who would always sit in the front, take notes, and I would never say anything unless I was asked.

难道没有教授说，你得学会大声发言吗？

And no professor said, You're going to need to learn to speak up?

本科阶段一个都没有。没有。对。所以我有一位教授让我去修了一门演讲系的课，这在学业和职业上都帮了我大忙。

None in undergrad. No. Right. So I had a professor who told me to take a class in the speech department, and that helped a lot academically and professionally.

Amy，你呢？进入职场后，你惊讶地发现哪项技能竟然是必需的？

Amy, how about you? What's a skill you were surprised to learn was necessary when you got into the workforce?

这听起来可能太简单了，但最让我佩服的，是我第一份工作时从老板Lisa Ortiz身上学到的。她效率极高，当时正在创业，我去给她打工。她用一款叫Quo Vadis的记事本，特别漂亮，皮面包装，里面有日历可以记笔记和日期。我看到她用它，然后她会问我，比如她说，我们有几批货要到。那是一家零售店。

This is going to sound so simple, but the most impressive thing, my first job that I learned about was from my boss, Lisa Ortiz. She was very productive. She was starting a business, and I went to work for her, And she used a planner called the Quo Vadis planner, and it was beautiful, and it had a leather cover on it, and inside it had calendar for taking notes and dates. And, you know, I saw her using that, and then she would ask me, like, she says, We have some deliveries coming in. It was a retail shop.

这些日期和时间，我原本全想记在脑子里，我回想她，哦，我得写下来，从来没人告诉我。老板说话的时候，你要做笔记。于是我跑到圣安东尼奥的Nancy Harkin文具店，给自己买了一本Quo Vadis记事本。我今天还保持这个习惯，记事本里有我的日历、议程、笔记和索引。所以我觉得女性通过观察其他女性来学习。

These dates and times, and I was trying to keep all that in my head, and I thought back to her, like, Oh, I need to write this down, and no one ever told me. Like, when your boss is speaking, you need to take notes. And so I went down to, in San Antonio, the Nancy Harkin Stationery Store, and I bought me a QuoVadis planner. I still have that habit today, planner, and I've got my calendar and my agenda and my notes and indexes. And so I think women observe other women.

我们就是这样学习的。她通过我观察她而教给我的这个最佳实践，成了我职业生涯中帮助我成功的东西。是的。

That's how we learn. And so her teaching me that best practice just through my observation of her has been something that's helped me to be successful in my career. Yeah.

对我来说，其实是谈判。我不是指谈薪水，而是几乎每段工作对话都是谈判，对吧？我们怎么推进这个项目？你听我的想法还是他们的？预算会是多少？

For me, it was really negotiation. I don't mean like negotiating a salary, just that pretty much every conversation in work was a negotiation, right? How are we going to move ahead with this project? Are you going to listen to my idea or their idea? What's the budget gonna be?

没人教过我当权力关系不像学生—教授那样一目了然时，该如何应对。我觉得最让我吃惊的是，我每天都、时时刻刻都需要这些谈判技巧。Emi Annette，你有没有被在校生或毕业生问过某个问题，让你发现他们根本没准备好进入职场，或者其实比你想的更准备好？Amy，你先来说。

And no one taught me how to navigate the power dynamics when they weren't as crystal clear as student professor. And I think that was the thing that was really surprising to me is how much I needed those negotiation skills every day, all day. Emi Annette, what's a question that you've gotten from a current student or a former student that has indicated to you that they're not at all prepared for the workforce or that perhaps they're actually more prepared than you expected? Amy, we can start with you.

关键不在于他们问了什么，而在于他们因为不知道问什么而没问什么。所以我们在职业中心教谈判技巧时，他们不知道自己可以为自己争取，可以要求换办公室、要停车位、要福利、多休一天。他们就是不知道可以问什么。所以支持更年轻的女性，那些刚出大学的初级女同事，我们越能为她们发声，替她们提问越好。

It's not the questions they're asking, but it's the questions they're not asking because they don't know what to ask. So when teaching negotiation skills, which is one thing we teach in the Career Center, they don't know that they can advocate for themselves, that they can ask for a different office, a parking spot, benefits, an extra day off. They just don't know the questions to ask. So supporting women who are younger, the junior women coming in, coming out of college, the more we can advocate for them, be the one that asks the questions.

现在你们俩都在学术界，我猜这里大多数人也在类似机构，但你们也都有企业经验。这如何影响你们跟学生谈他们需要准备什么？

Now, you both are in academia now, and I assume most people here are similar organizations, but you both have corporate experience as well. How does that influence the way you talk to students about what they need to be prepared for?

所以我在拿到硕士学位后立刻进了一家建筑事务所。我总跟学生说，学校有点像“乌托邦”，对吧？我们可以随心所欲地做设计，而不必面对真实世界的诸多挑战，尤其是和客户沟通的时候。建筑学生做一个项目要花十七周，他们常开玩笑说“我跟它结婚了”。对吧？所以我总告诉他们，这不是关于你，而是关于客户。

So I worked in an architectural firm right after I got my master's degree. And I think I always tell my students school is kind of this la la land, right? That we get to do what we want and not necessarily have to deal with a lot of the challenges that come in the real world, especially like when it comes to speaking to clients, right, architecture students when they design a project, they spend, you know, seventeen weeks and they're, as they like to say, I'm married to it. Right? So I would always tell them that it's not about you, but it is about the client.

所以当你展示项目时，别说“我喜欢这个”，而要说“这座建筑是这样设计的，目的是……”这样就能练习怎么跟客户说话；如果你告诉客户“这个项目是为你量身打造的，它会回应你的需求”，你被录用的几率就比下一个人高得多。我仍然积极留在业界做咨询和设计，这样我才知道学生出去后真正需要什么。

So when you're presenting your project, instead of saying, I like this, just say, this is how this building is designed to right? And that would help you practice how you speak to your clients because if you're telling your client, this project was designed for you and this is how it's gonna respond to your needs, there's a much higher chance that they would hire you than the next person. I still try to stay very active in the real world and do consulting work and design work so then I know what it is that students need when they get out there.

Amy，你呢？

Amy, how about you?

我在西德州的一个小镇长大。爸爸是牧师，妈妈是老师，我以为世界上只有这两种职业。所以我一路摸爬滚打、靠试错学东西，当时并没有多少导师。

So I grew up in a small town in West Texas. My dad was a preacher and my mom was a teacher. I thought those were the only two jobs. And so I learned a lot and I learned it the hard way just by trial and error. I didn't have a lot of mentors at the time.

后来我去了菲利普莫里斯国际工作，我还记得那场面试。他们把一个西德州小镇姑娘派到纽约城——我之前去过的最大城市不过是达拉斯。于是我第一次坐飞机，一天七轮面试，晚上还一起去吃饭。整场面试都是学习。

So I worked for Philip Morris International, and I remember my interview for that job. They sent me a small town, West Texas girl, to New York City. I'd never been in a city larger than Dallas. So here I go to on a plane for the first time, seven interviews in the day, and then we went to dinner that evening. Everything was a learning experience through that interview.

甚至晚上十点在纽约吃晚餐也让我震惊：什么？十点钟还能吃饭？餐厅特别高档，菜单上一半是法文，我就学现场认识的 Val 点单，我说“我和她一样”。有 Val 做榜样，让我想“她行我也行”，这对我帮助很大。

Even when we went to dinner in New York City at 10PM, that was I was like, wait, are really? The restaurant was so nice. Half of the things on the menu were in French, and so I did the let me see what Val person that I knew there, what is she ordering? And I just said, I'll have what she's having. I think, you know, having Val there as a mentor and to say, okay, if she's doing this, I can do this too, really did help me.

我也这样教学生：找导师、找赞助人、找办公室里你觉得超酷、想成为他那样的人。你可以通过观察和相处学到很多。有时候跟某个人去星巴克聊半小时，比上一整天培训课还充电。这是我从企业界带回的——我们可以彼此教会如何在职场成功。我也学到办公室政治：头衔确实有用，不管你喜不喜欢，它都有分量。

And I try to teach that to our students, find a mentor, find a sponsor, find someone you just think looks really cool in the office and you want to be like them. And, you know, you can learn a lot just from observation and from being in their presence. You know you have those people in your life where you feel like, I got so much energy just out of going to Starbucks and getting coffee with this one person than I did learn learning in a training class. So that's kinda one thing I took from the corporate world that we can really teach each other to be successful in those environments. And I also learned a lot about office politics that titles mean something, and whether you like it or not, it does have power.

你可以既礼貌、优雅、专业，又有力量。这大概是在美国企业界让我体会最深的一点。是的。

And you can be polite, poised, and professional, and still powerful. And I think that's what working in corporate America taught me the most. Yeah.

我们做过一期关于“赞助”的节目，讲它和导师的区别，以及如何找到赞助人。那集最常听到女听众说“我把它转给我女儿/侄女了”。因为大家没被提醒过：不是你进去埋头干活就行，你需要盟友，需要有人在组织里为你发声。

We did an episode about sponsorship and how it differs from mentorship and how to get a sponsor. And it's the episode I hear most often women tell me, I sent it to my daughter or I sent it to my niece. Because I think that is also a skill people are not warned that you don't just go in and your work speaks for yourself. You need allies. You need people who are gonna advocate for you in the organization.

咱们来聊聊技能。NACE 列了八项“职业就绪”能力：职业与自我发展、沟通、批判思维、公平与包容、领导力、职业素养、团队合作、技术。想一次性全教给学生简直让人头大，而且这清单还不完整。结合播客里嘉宾和听众的经验，我们要补的还多着呢。

Let's get into some of the skills. So NACE outlines these competencies that they say are essential for career readiness. So career and self development, communication, critical thinking, equity and inclusion, leadership, professionalism, teamwork, and technology. Thinking about trying to equip students with all of those skills is overwhelming, and yet we also know that list is not complete. When we think about what we've learned on the podcast, you know, and what we've learned from our guests and our listeners, there is so much more.

谈判、倡导、如何平衡远程工作、设定边界、如何处理情绪劳动、如何应对针对你的偏见，以及我们已经讨论过的所有事情。所以我想深入了解你们正在做的事情，以让学生掌握这些不在NACE清单上的技能。我们从谈判开始吧。艾米，特别是在你们的职业中心，你们如何思考谈判技巧，并给予女性所需的技能，不仅仅是去谈判薪水，而是去谈判工作的各个方面？

Negotiation, advocacy, how to balance remote work, boundaries, and how to deal with emotional labor, how to deal with bias that gets sent your way, and all of the things we've already talked about. So I want to get into what you're doing to equip students with some of these things that aren't on the NACE list. Let's start with negotiation. How are you, Amy, especially in your career center, how are you thinking about negotiation skills and giving women the skills they need, not just to negotiate a salary, but to negotiate all aspects of a job?

你说得对。并不总是只关乎金钱。还关乎其他的一切。因此，在德州女子大学，我们对性别薪酬差距非常关注。所以我们向学生传授这方面的知识。

You're right. It's not always just about money. It's about what else is out there. And so we, at Texas Woman's University, we're very passionate about the pay gap, the gender pay gap. And so we teach students about that.

男性每赚1美元，女性只能赚84美分。要改变这一现状，唯一的办法就是通过彼此倡导、彼此教导。我看到房间里有一些男性，不是针对你们，但我们需要你们在职场中为我们发声。我们也需要你们

For every $1 a man earns, a woman earns 84¢. The only way that we're gonna change that is through advocating for each other and through teaching each other. And I see there's some men in the room, not to pick on you, but we need you to advocate for us in the workplace. We also need you

告诉我们你们的收入，因为我们往往甚至意识不到薪酬差距的存在，所以信息越多越有帮助，尤其是来自男性的信息，这样我们才能更好地判断是否需要做倡导、是否需要谈判。

to tell us what you earn because we're not even often aware of the pay gap, and so it's really helpful the more information we have, especially for men, the more we can understand whether we need to do some advocacy, we need to do some negotiation.

是的。所以，作为女性，我们被教导要尊敬长辈、保持安静，当收到工作录用时，我们往往会陷入僵住的状态，不会去想下一步或者我们应该提出什么要求。因此，我们努力教会女性情绪智力，以及在讨论中平衡情绪——这些讨论可能带有情绪色彩，但却非常重要。让女性为自己发声，是薪资谈判乃至其他生活谈判中的关键。

Yes, And so, think as women, we're taught to be respectful of our elders and quiet, and we're made a job offer and we kind of go into freeze mode, and we aren't thinking of the next step or what we need to be asking for. And so, we try and teach women emotional intelligence and balancing your emotions and discussions like that that can be emotional but important. And so getting women to advocate for themselves is the main thing in salary negotiations and also in other other life negotiations.

在学生组织——建筑女性小组里，谈判是其中一个主题。我们有很多学生拿到工作机会时，无论是学生还是刚毕业，当你收到录用通知时，你只是感到开心。学生常常问我，你确定吗？我就告诉一个学生：如果你不是为自己去做，那就为所有后来女性的利益去做。她照做了。

The student organization, the Women in Architecture group, negotiation is one of the topics. We've had a lot of students who get a job and as a student or as a recent graduate, when you get an offer, you're just happy. And students often tell me, Are you sure? And I told this to one student, If you're not doing it for you, do it for all the women who would come after you. And she did.

她得到了她要求的一切，后来，一个从未上过我的课的学生在学校找到我说，你不认识我，但我跟那个你让她为后来所有女性去争取的人聊过。她告诉了我这些，我也照做了。所以我想说声谢谢，因为我得到了更高的薪水，还获得了陪伴身体不太好的妈妈的时间。所以，只要知道你可以开口。就算他们说不行，也不过是被拒绝而已。

She got everything she asked for and then later on, a student who had never had a class with me came to me in school and said, You don't know me, but I spoke to this person who you had told to ask for more for all the women that come after her. So she told me this, and I did too. So I wanted to say thank you because I got a higher salary and I got time to spend with my mom who's not doing really well. So, yeah, just knowing that you can ask. And if they say no, they say no.

你不会失去任何东西，对吧？但这是我以前不知道的，当我听到学生们现在这样做时，我真的很开心。

You don't lose anything, right? But that's something that I didn't know and it makes me really happy when I hear that students are doing it now.

我们再来谈另一项技能：应对偏见和性别歧视。对于如何向我生活中的年轻人，尤其是我18岁的女儿提出这个问题，我非常犹豫。一方面，我想告诉她现实会是怎样；另一方面，我又不想吓到她。我很好奇你们如何与你们指导和带领的学生处理这个问题。

Let's talk about another skill, dealing with bias and sexism. I'm so on the fence about how to handle this question for the young people in my life, particularly my 18 year old daughter. On the one hand, I want to tell her how it's going to be. On the other, I do not want to scare her. And I'm curious how you handle this with the students that you mentor and lead.

艾米？这不是我们放在最前面的话题，

Amy? It's not a topic that we put at the forefront,

但当学生提出这些问题时，我们可以与他们进行坦诚的讨论。不过我们会回到研究怎么说，以事实证据为基础，谈论关于职场中的女性和男性，甚至年龄，以及这些因素对他们未来职业可能产生的影响。我觉得这些想法在他们脑海深处，但很少被说出来。是的，我很高兴你提到了

but when students ask us those questions, we are able to have honest discussions with them. But we try and go back to what does the research say and base it on factual evidence and talk about, oh, here are the facts about women and men in the workplace and even age in the workplace and what impact it could have on their future career. I think it's in the back of their minds, but not spoken about a lot. Yeah. I'm glad you brought

年龄，因为当我们说年龄歧视时，我通常想到的是对年长者的歧视，但学生面临的最大问题之一，最大的“歧视”或偏见之一就是年龄歧视，当它与性别歧视交织时，会令人非常沮丧、被轻视、被削弱。所以我很高兴你提到了这一点。Neta，你们小组也会讨论这些话题吗？

up age too because that's when we say ageism, I think we often think about discrimination against people who are older, but students, one of the biggest things they face, one of the biggest isms or biases often is ageism, and compounded when that intersects with sexism can be quite demoralizing, dismissive, undermining. So I'm glad you brought that up. Neta, do those conversations come up in your group as well?

会的。学生说，如果你是一个刚开始在建筑事务所工作的年轻人，大家会默认你懂所有技术、所有电脑程序，然后你就被拿来当工具人用。所以我告诉学生：好，你们已经发现了问题，现在我们一起找解决办法。我们一起讨论，然后一起读相关文章，看看如何应对他们所处的具体情境，这往往会引发更大范围的讨论，我们再带回全员会议一起探讨。

They do. Students were saying, if you are a young person who is just starting your career at an architectural firm, you're expected to know all the technology and how all the computer programs work, and then you are used for that. So what I tell my students is, okay, so you have identified the problem, let's now find a solution for it. So we talk through it and then we find articles to read together and kind of see what's the best way to deal with the specific situation that they're in, which often then starts a conversation in a bigger picture, and then we bring it back to our general meeting and talk about it together.

想到22岁初入职场时的我，根本不具备“为问题找解决方案”的能力。我很擅长指出问题，觉得别人应该去解决，却不擅长自己想办法。所以我认为，关键不只是指出“这里有问题”，还要提出“可以怎么做”。同样，我也不太会挑战场，觉得每件事都值得为之一把火烧掉整个组织，后来很快学到并非如此。

When I think about 22 year old me who entered the workforce, the idea of finding solutions for problems was not a skill I had. I was really good at pointing out problems I thought other people should solve, but was not good at figuring out. So I think thinking about how do you propose not just this is something wrong, but also how do you actually propose what can be done? Similarly, I was not very good at picking my battles. I felt like everything was worth, you know, burning down the organization for, which I had to learn very quickly was not the case.

我想稍微转个话题。在South by的谈话里，不聊技术和AI可说不过去。Amy，你们中心如何利用技术来了解女性进入职场所需的技能，或帮助她们做好准备？

I want to pivot a little bit. It wouldn't be a conversation at South by if we didn't talk about technology and AI. Amy, how is your center using technology to either understand the skills that women need as they enter the workforce or to prepare them.

先让我回到AI。关于刚才那一点，我们确实会教一个概念，你提得很对，22岁的我会怎么处理？我们教“影响圈”和“关注圈”，因为职场里我们会关注很多事，但必须聚焦在能影响的部分，引导学生思考自己掌控得了什么，然后专注于此。而在德州女子大学就业中心，我们大量使用AI，教学生如何写提示词，以及如何润色AI生成的内容。

Let me come back to AI. I want to say something about that last One thing we do teach, and you've made a really good point, me at twenty two, how did I handle this? We teach the circle of influence and circle of concern because we're gonna be concerned about a lot of things in the workplace. What we have to focus on is what can we influence and getting students to think to that level of what do I have control over, and let's focus on that. But the Career Center at Texas Woman's University, we use AI quite a lot, and we're teaching students how to write prompts and how to edit what the AI generates for you.

如果简历上写了，面试时你能聊得出来吗？还是只是听起来不错？我们也开始使用一些数据挖掘工具，看看学生毕业后的去向，不只追踪“首份工作”这个传统指标，而是继续看五年后他们在哪里、怎么走到那一步。

And if it's on your resume, are you going to be able to talk about it in an interview? Or is this something that just sounded good? And we're also using starting to use some data mining tools to see where students going, not just for their first destination, which has been a common metric in career centers all over for a long time, first destination, where are they going? And then we end. So what we're trying to do now is where are they at in five years and how did they get there?

十年后他们在哪里？路径如何？借助劳工统计局、LinkedIn个人资料等数据源，我们可以把追踪延长到十年，了解他们的发展轨迹，再用来辅导在校生。因为学生总觉得自己三周内就能当CEO，我们得让他们看到职业是逐步发展的，只有随着时间推进，才能持续获得挑战与工作幸福感。这非常有意义。

Where are they in ten years and how did they get there? And with data mining sources like Bureau of Labor Statistics and LinkedIn and profiles and things like that, we can start to mine and follow our students a little bit further, even out to ten years, and how did they get there, and then use that for coaching students. Because students think they're going to be the CEO in three weeks, you know, and it's like, we got to show them this progression. It's a career progression over time that's going to make you successful and continue to be challenged and happy in your work. So that's been really meaningful.

太好了。

That's great.

Netha，你们和学生聊AI吗？

Netha, are you talking about AI with your students?

百分之百。所以，在我的课堂上，自从AI出现以来，我就把它介绍给学生。我自己也每天都在不断学习它，对吧？然后通常对于一个作业，我会说，用ChatGPT。

100%. So, in my classes, since AI became a thing, I introduced it to my students. I try to learn it as much as I can myself constantly, like, on daily basis. Right? And then what I would do usually for an assignment is I say, have ChatGPT.

这是你的主题。让ChatGPT写，带到课堂上来。接着我会和他们一对一交流，一起分析。你同意它写的内容吗？

This is your topic. Have ChatGPT write it. Bring it to class. And then I would have one on one sessions with them and have them analyze it with me. So do you agree with what it's written?

通常我看到他们灵光一闪：这不是我想说的。于是我就引导他们进行批判性思考。我让他们用它，无论是快速出图、构思，还是给它你的摘要让它给项目起个完美标题，但别让它替你思考。这就是我的总体方法，因为不管我允不允许，学生都会用。所以我希望能在他们使用过程中给予指导，帮助他们成功。

And that usually I see these kind of like light bulbs going that that's not what I want to say. So then I bring it to critical thinking. I tell them to use it, whether it's for rendering quick renderings and ideation or giving it your abstract and having the perfect title for your project, but don't let it think for you. So that's generally been my approach to it because students are going to use it regardless if I allow it or not, they're going to do it. So my hope is that I would be able to guide them through the process of using it to help them succeed.

所以我们想听听大家的意见。如果你们有问题，可以在这里排队。嗨。

So we want to hear from you all. If you have any questions, can line up here. Hi.

大家好。谢谢你们，女士们。这太棒了。我还带了我女儿来，她24岁，刚大学毕业。所以我很希望你们能给我女儿以及播客里的所有人一个建议：如何平衡在找第一份工作时显得积极甚至有点咄咄逼人，因为你还要和男性竞争，而对他们这似乎是天经地义的。

Hello. Thank you, ladies. This was incredible. I also brought my daughter, being 24 and a recent college graduate. So I would love for you to give both my daughter and everybody in your podcast advice on how you balance coming across being pushy and aggressive to get that first job because you're also up against men that it's almost expected from.

好的。Evie，你——哦，你先吧。Nat，你呢？

Yeah. Evie, do you oh, go ahead. Nat, do you?

抱歉，我太激动了，因为我一毕业就申请了我的梦想工作。我投完简历心想他们肯定不会理我。结果两小时内就收到事务所负责人的邮件。他刚好在城里，看到邮件想，反正午饭没安排，就见见这个年轻姑娘吧。

Sorry. I just got really excited because I applied for my dream job right out of school, And I sent the application in thinking they're never going to call me. Within two hours, I got an email from the principal of the firm. He happened to be in town and had gotten the email and thought, well, I don't have any lunch plans. Let's just meet with this young lady.

于是我跟他见了面。最后没在那里工作，他们没录用我。但他跟我说保持联系。我说，好啊，可我能多久联系一次？

So I met with him. I ended up not working there. They didn't hire me. But what he did tell me was keep in touch. And then I said, Sure, but how often can I keep in touch?

你知道的？他说，想联系就联系，直到我们让你别联系为止。因为他告诉我，我们收到很多邮件，不是针对你个人，也不是你的问题。

You know? He said, Contact us as much as you want until we tell you not to. Because what he told me was that we get a lot of emails. It's not personal. It's not about you.

只是我们没时间，对吧？但如果你持续发邮件，如果你出现并说，嗨，我申请过这里，想问问能不能和某某聊聊，那他们就会知道你真的比下一个人更感兴趣。

It's just about we don't have time. Right? But if you keep sending emails, if you show up and say, Hi, I applied here and I was just wondering if I could talk to so and so, then they would know that you're actually more interested than maybe the next person.

妮塔说得非常对。这是人与人之间的连接。如果你不建立人脉，你就没有真正在工作。这是我们对学生说的。你得走出去。

And Nita made a really good point. It's human to human connection. If you're not networking, you're not working. That's what we tell our students. You've gotta get out there.

你得进行眼神交流，握手，挺直腰板，展现存在感。如果你只是坐在Zoom屏幕后面等别人发邮件，那永远不会发生。所以面对面、人对人，我们不能忘记这一点。如果你要去参加协会会议、会议或社交活动，带一个学生一起去。

You gotta make eye contact, shake hands, stand up tall, be a presence. If you're sitting behind a Zoom screen waiting for someone to email you, it's never gonna happen. So in person, human to human, we cannot forget that. If you're going to an association meeting or a conference or a networking event, grab a student. Take them with you.

如果你不知道带哪个学生，给我打电话。我来帮你联系。我名单上有很多。

If you don't know what student to grab, call me. I'll connect you. I've got a lot on the list.

作为一位母亲，我希望我的女儿能遇到像妮塔这样的教授和像艾米这样的职业中心主任，把隐形的期望变得清晰可见。作为同事，我知道我也可以为别人的孩子做到这一点。比如，说“可以提出这个要求”，或者“让我告诉你我是怎么处理这件事的”。在奥斯汀录制结束后，有人走过来告诉我，她做的一件事是给自己年轻时的自己写一封信，写下她当时希望知道的所有事情。她把这封信分享给她生活中指导的年轻女性。

As a mom, I hope my daughter will have professors like Netta and career center directors like Amy who make invisible expectations much more visible. As a colleague, I know I can do that for someone else's kid. Like, by saying, it's okay to ask for that, or let me show you how I handle this. Someone came up to me after the recording in Austin and told me that one of the things she has done is to write a letter to her younger self with all the things she wished she had known back then. And she shares this letter with the young women that she mentors in her life.

所以，如果你在听的过程中想到了某个人——一位与学生共事的同事、一个在职业早期阶段摸索的朋友，或一位正在指导新员工的管理者——请把这一集分享给他们。《职场女性》的编辑和制作团队包括阿曼达·克西、莫琳·霍赫、蒂娜·托比·麦克、汉娜·贝茨、罗布·埃克哈特和伊恩·福克斯。罗布和摩尔创作了这段主题音乐。我是艾米·加洛。感谢收听。

So if someone came to mind while you were listening, a colleague who works with students, a friend navigating the early stages of her career, or a fellow manager who's mentoring a new hire, send this episode their way. Woman at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Toby Mac, Hannah Bates, Rob Eckhart, and Ian Fox. Rob and Moore composed this theme music. I'm Amy Gallo. Thanks for listening.