我们正在提出（并获得）我们想要的东西

您正在收听的是《哈佛商业评论》的《职场女性》。我是艾米·加洛。你的工作愿望清单上有什么？你想参加会议或培训吗？你希望得到更高的绩效评级、薪水或职位头衔吗？

You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo. What's on your work wish list? Do you wanna go to a conference or training? Are you hoping for a higher performance rating or salary or job title?

有没有一个项目你想领导？或者你可能需要延长截止日期。当我们真的想从老板或同事那里得到什么时，他们拒绝的可能性有时足以让我们一开始就不敢开口。然而，正如艾莉森·弗拉盖尔在本季早些时候的节目中分享的那样，我们大多数人都会低估别人答应我们的频率。以防你没听到那期名为《要得到你想要的，既要坚定又要温暖》的节目，让我快速为你补一下重点。

Is there a project you'd like to lead? Or maybe you need an extension on a deadline. When we really want something from our boss or a colleague, the prospect of them saying no is sometimes enough to deter us from even asking in the first place. Yet, as Alison Fragail shared in an episode earlier this season, most of us underestimate how often people will say yes. In case you didn't hear that episode called To Get What You Want, Be Both Assertive and Warm, let me catch you up real quick.

艾莉森是北卡罗来纳大学商学院的组织行为学教授。她写的书叫《讨人喜欢的狠角色：女性如何获得她们应得的成功》。她的主要论点是，女性可以而且应该拥抱温暖和坚定，以建立尊重、提升地位并获得权力。温暖的部分通常来得容易，比如建立良好关系、考虑他人的优先事项和限制、帮助他们。这就是世界通常养育我们的方式——体贴和给予。

Allison is a professor of organizational behavior at the University of North Carolina's Business School. The book she wrote is Likable Badass, How Women Get the Success They Deserve. Now her main argument is that women can and should embrace warmth and assertiveness to build respect, elevate their status, and gain power. The warmth part often comes easy, like building good relationships, taking into account people's priorities and constraints, helping them out. That's how the world typically raises us, to be considerate and giving.

为自己争取的部分对我们许多人来说并不容易。这确实需要练习，艾莉森喜欢通过一个她称之为“收集拒绝”的练习，将其快速培养成习惯。

The advocating for ourselves part doesn't come as easy for many of us. It definitely takes practice, which Allison likes to fast track into a habit through an exercise she calls collecting no's.

这是我在教MBA学生谈判影响力课程时开始使用的，让他们走出去，在现实世界中突破自己的技能边界。我们通常认为谈判是为了得到“是”。但这个作业是为了得到“否”。所以目标是向10个不同的人提出10个不同的请求。不要只找同一个人问10次。

It's something that I started using in my negotiation influence classes when I was teaching MBA students to get them to go out and push the boundaries of their skills in the real world. And we often think negotiation try to get a yes. But this assignment is trying to get no's. So the goal is make 10 different asks of 10 different people. So don't just go to the same one person and ask them 10 times.

10个不同的人，直到你得到10个“否”。不一定是“不”这个词，只要对方以某种方式告诉你“这事成不了”。每当你得到一个“否”，就可以把它列入清单。大多数人以为中午前就能完成这个练习。因为别人经常拒绝我，应该很容易。

10 different people until you get 10 no's. And it doesn't have to be the word no, it has to be the person that's essentially saying to you in some way, shape or form, this is not happening. Every time you get a no, you can put it on the list. Most of the time people think I will be done with this exercise by noon. Because people tell me no all the time, it's going to be really easy.

结果大家花的时间比预期长得多，因为他们得到了

It takes people a lot longer than they expect because they get a

更多的

lot more

“是”。他们开始意识到，自己可以在生活中争取更多以前没想过的东西。

yeses. And one of the things they start to realize is that they can be advocating for more things in their life than they had previously.

几位《职场女性》的听众做了这个练习，并记录了他们的请求以及得到的“是”和“否”。其中四位自愿分享了她们的经历，好让我们都能听到当真实女性采纳这条建议时会发生什么。正如你即将听到的，收集那些“否”带来了惊喜、洞察、一些不适，还有成长。在与她们的对话之后，我又和艾莉森聊了聊，然后你会听到我十几岁的女儿哈珀的声音，她也和我们一起做了这个练习。但首先，请听我与四位听众的对话。

Several women at work listeners did the exercise and kept track of their asks and the yeses and noes they got. And four of them volunteered to share their experience so that we could all hear how the advice plays out when real women take it. As you're about to hear, collecting those nos brought about surprises, insight, some discomfort, and growth. After my conversation with them, I check back in with Allison, and then you'll hear from my teenage daughter, Harper, who did the exercise along with us. But first, here's my conversation with our four listeners.

好的，Sherry，我想先从你开始。请介绍一下你是谁、你的工作内容，然后分享一两项你在这个练习中提出的请求以及结果如何。

Alright. Sherry, I wanna start with you. Give us, you know, who you are, what your job is, and maybe share one or two things you asked for as part of this exercise and what happened.

好的，没问题。我是一名教练兼导师，指导在高等教育领域工作的学生领袖。我提出的请求里，有两项是：我想在一个活动上发言；我还请人来参加我组织的一场会议。

Yeah. For sure. Coach and mentor student leaders who are working in higher education. A couple of the things that I asked for, I asked to speak at an event. I asked for people to come and speak at a conference I was doing.

我提交了提案，然后一直继续。结果我实际上没完成这项作业——我没拿到10个“不”，主要是因为我应付不过来那么多“好”的回应。

I put forward proposals. I just kept going, and, I actually failed the assignments. I didn't achieve all of my my no's and mostly because I couldn't handle the number of yeses I had received.

我知道，Kumathi，你也没凑够10个“不”。先简单介绍一下你自己，再说说你提出过的一些请求。

I know, Kumathi, you'd also did not get to 10 no's, but tell us a little bit about who you are and some of the things you asked for.

好的。我叫Kumatani Raman，在毕马威工作，是一名学习发展专业人士。我主要与公司里的总监和合伙人合作，帮助他们提升领导技能。

Sure. So my name is Kumatani Raman. I work with KPMG. I'm a learning professional. I primarily work with directors and partners here in my firm to help them build their leadership skills.

我的工作性质一直是“给予型”的，我在分享、在提供东西，所以人们通常比较友好。于是当我去请求什么时，他们往往会说：“好啊，没问题。”

The kind of job that I am into, it is always a giving job. I'm sharing something, giving them something. So people are at least they tend to be nicer. So when we go ask something, they're like, Yeah, sure,

我来帮你。行，没问题。

I'll help you. Yeah, sure,

我来办。所以我得费劲去找“不”的场景。于是我开始在工作内外同时寻找“不”。我最近刚搬到一个新社区，我喜欢打羽毛球。

I'll do it. So I really had to struggle to find the no scenario. So what I did is I started looking for no's both in my professional at work, but also personally. I had moved into a new neighborhood very recently And I like badminton. I play badminton.

我想找个社区一起打球。我发现这里有几个小组每周固定打羽毛球，我很想加入。可我去问时，他们说“不”，因为我是女生。

And I wanted a community to play with. And here, I found out there were a couple of groups that were into playing badminton on a weekly basis regularly. And I really wanted to be a part of that group. And I went to ask them and they said no, because I'm a girl.

你接着说

You're going to have

教我如何玩。

to teach me how to play.

我们要

We're going to

给你找一支Vappanzee队。

find you a Vappanzee team.

费莉西蒂，你来说说。就谈谈你觉得舒服的关于你自己的事，以及你提出的一些请求。

Felicity, let's hear from you. Just on whatever you feel comfortable sharing about yourself and and a few of the things you asked for.

好的。我叫费莉西蒂。我本职是工程师。我在个人生活和职业生活中都提了不少请求。我得到的“同意”比预期的多，但我也注意到有很多“拒绝”是我没想到的，而且很多“拒绝”其实一开始是“同意”，只是后来没有跟进，不了了之。

Yes. My name's Felicity. So I'm an engineer by training. I have I've asked quite a lot of things in my personal life and in my professional life. And I did get more yeses than I necessarily anticipated but I also noticed that there were quite a lot of nos where I wasn't necessarily expecting to find them and a lot of my nos were actually an initial yes but then just didn't get followed up and come back to that later.

好的。苏珊，介绍一下你自己，还有你提出的一些请求。

Yeah. Suzanne, tell us about you and what a few things you asked for.

好的。我是苏珊，在高等教育领域担任领导职务，负责学校的创新部门，很多工作都需要跨团队协作。有几个“拒绝”来自我希望能更紧密合作的团队，我正在推进一项重要计划。

Yeah. So I'm Suzanne. I'm a leader in higher education. I lead an innovation unit at my institution, and a lot of the work that I do involves collaborating across different teams. A couple of the no's were with teams that I would like to collaborate more with, teams that I'm trying to advance some kind of a significant initiative.

其中一次是我以为对方会答应，结果很快就变成了拒绝。这个拒绝来得挺突然。另一次就像费莉西蒂说的，听起来像是同意，但我跟那个人打交道够多，能感觉到“同意”背后其实藏着“拒绝”。

And one of the situations was just assuming that I was gonna get a yes, and then it became a no. Really quickly. It was it was a no, and that was kind of an unwelcome one. Another case, like Felicity said, something that sounded like a yes, but I've interacted enough with this other person that I could sense that there was a no underlying the yes. Mhmm.

所以这是两个我觉得有趣的例子，我很乐意继续分享。

So those were a couple of the interesting examples that I'll be happy to share more about.

嗯，你原本以为会答应、结果立刻被拒绝的是什么？

Yeah. What was the thing you assumed was a yes, but was an immediate no?

是的。我当时在和另一个团队合作，有人让我负责项目中的某一部分。这是一个非常大的项目，但我被指定负责其中一个具体环节。我制定了一个执行计划，并且刻意地和大家沟通，确保每个人都明白：我们是一个团队，但这是我负责的工作流，这是我的执行方案。然后，一位对这部分工作有决策权的人对我说：不，我们不想按你的方式做。

Yeah. So I was collaborating with another team, and I had been asked to lead a certain aspect of the project. It was You know, it's a very big project, but I was put in charge of a particular element of it. And I came up with a plan of how I was gonna do this, and I was intentionally communicating about it just to make sure everyone understood, you know, we're all in this together, but here's the the work stream that I'm leading, and here's my plan to do that. And an individual who has authority over some aspects of this work said to me, no, we don't wanna do it that way.

这位团队成员将代替我主导这部分工作。我很不高兴，因为我已经投入了很多思考和精力去规划如何推进这个工作流。所以突然听到“不，就这样定了”让我感到既意外又不舒服。我们确实就此谈了谈，我也尽量去理解对方的观点。最终，我觉得不值得为此争执。

This other team member is going to take the lead on that instead. And I was unhappy because I had put a lot of thought and actually effort into how I wanted to take that work stream forward. So it was surprising and unwelcome to hear all of a sudden, like, No, that's not happening. We did have a conversation about it, and I guess I appreciated hearing this person's viewpoint. And in the end, I guess I decided it's not worth fighting over this.

于是我说：好吧，你们来吧。

So I said, fine. Go ahead.

还有谁本以为会得到肯定答复，结果却吃了闭门羹吗？Felicity？

Did anyone else assume they would get a yes and then got a no about something? Felicity?

我没有遇到本以为会成功却被拒绝的情况。但我收到过几次类似“附带条件的肯定”的回复——更准确地说，是“我不认为这是你时间的最佳用途”。这种反馈其实很有帮助，因为在我看来，太棒了：如果得到的是“之所以说不，是因为……”这样的反馈，就意味着你可以采取行动、改进方案，下次争取变成肯定。最糟糕的是被拒绝后对方直接无视你、屏蔽你，或者干脆消失。

I didn't get things where I was expecting it to be a yes, but it was a no. But I did get a couple of responses where it was not quite a conditional yes, but I don't think this is the best use of your time, was quite helpful because from my perspective, fantastic. Like if you get that feedback of this is a no because, that means that you can take action and you can improve things and you can make it a yes next time. It's when you get the no and then they just sort of ignore you or block you or you know, that kind of thing.

或者“玩消失”。对，你们中有好几位的请求连回音都没收到，对吧？

Or ghost you. Yes. Because several of you had asks where you never even heard back. Right?

是的，我一共有六次，比预想的要多。

Yeah. I had I mean, I had six of them. That was more than I expected.

确实不少。我在想，你的情况有什么特别之处，导致这么多无回应？

Yeah. That is a lot. And I I wondered, like, what was it about your situation where you got so many non responses?

出于好奇，我梳理了一下，看有没有规律。面对面时，我通常能得到肯定答复；但随后通过邮件或短信，这些肯定往往又变成否定。另一个有趣的现象是：我收到五位女性的拒绝，其中四位都说明了“不”的理由，最终我们达成了双方都满意的行动方案；七位男性里，只有两位给出了明确否定并一起找到后续行动，另外五位则直接无视。

So I just out of curiosity, do glitches or any patterns. So in person, I tend to get yeses. Those then generally turn into a no over email or over text. The other thing that was interesting was I got five no's from women, four out of five were no because and then we got to an action that actually we're both happy with. Two out of the seven men were no's that were clear and then we got to an action that we're happy with and five of them were just ignored.

是的，确实有明显模式。但对我来说，最突出的还是面对面 versus 邮件沟通带来的差异。

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Definitely a pattern there. But I think the in person versus the over email bit was, yeah, that was the strongest pattern for me.

从大家的经历中我得到的一点启发，不只是我们在开口请求这件事有多棒——听这些“开口”的故事让我乐坏了，心里直喊“天啊，太棒了，大家真的在开口！”——我还意识到，我们得教人们如何说“不”。“因为……所以不行，但我们可以聊聊别的办法”和一句冷冰的“不行”然后消失，这两者天差地别。甚至想想你打羽毛球的经历。

One thing I'm taking away from all of your experiences is not just how great it is that we're asking. Like I'm having a delightful time hearing about all these asks because I'm like, oh my gosh, yes, we're asking. But I also think one of my takeaways is that we need to teach people how to say no. There's such a difference between a no because and let's talk about what you can do instead and then just a no and I'm ignoring you. Or even like coming thing thinking about your badminton experience.

就像那种“不行，你是女生”——啥？我觉得我们得训练人们：先说清楚为什么拒绝，再跟进“那你可以怎么做”。其他人有没有像Felicity那样，也注意到什么模式？

Like, no, you're a girl. Like, what? There are so many ways in which I think we need to train people to be clearer about why they're saying no and then follow-up of what can someone do instead. Did anyone else notice any patterns in the same way that Felicity did for your for yourself?

Felicity说的几点让我很有共鸣，尤其是“怎么问”和“用什么渠道问”。我们办的各类项目常需要了解哪些有效、哪些无效、下次怎么改。当我能当面找人聊，他们愿意花时间、给注意力，分享想法和经历；可如果我换种方式，比如发邮件，得到的回复就是“是，但其实是no”。

I think some things that Felicity said really resonated with me, especially in terms of how you ask the question and what modality you choose to ask the question. I've experienced that a lot, especially for the kind of different programs that we run. And we want to always understand what's working and what's not working and what do we do for the next time. And when I'm able to reach out to people in person, I'm able to get their time, their attention, and they're willing to share their thoughts, their experience. If I chose a different modality, let's say I write to them on email, it's a yes but a no.

说白了就是“no”，一篇长文的no，听起来像yes，其实完全不是。他们会用特别客气的字眼：‘我很想帮忙，可惜实在抽不出时间’之类的。

I mean, it's a no, a very wordy no. It sounds like an S, but it's not a yes at all. That's how they write it. They're like very politely in all words saying, I don't have the time. I would love to if I wanted to and things like that.

我还注意到“个人触感”和“群体效应”的差别。比如我问20个人：‘有没有人愿意多留5分钟，跟我聊聊感受？’大家会觉得“总有人留”，结果责任分散，全走了；可如果我单独点一个人：‘你能多留5分钟吗？’对方往往说‘好啊’。

And the other thing I've also noticed is the personal touch versus the group effect. So if I ask, let's say a bunch of 20 people, even if it's in person to say, is anybody willing to stay back five minutes longer and share with me how you experienced it? Or you know? And everybody assumes somebody's gonna stay, and and then this other person's responsibility to stay, and then everybody leave. But I picked a person and said, would you stay back?

所以，怎么问、用什么渠道、人多还是人少，都会影响最后是yes还是no，时机也很关键。

Would you mind just five minutes? Would you give me five minutes? And they're like, sure. I think that how you ask the question, what modality do you choose to ask the question? Are there more people?

所以，怎么问、用什么渠道、人多还是人少，都会影响最后是yes还是no，时机也很关键。

Are there less? I think all of that plays into getting a yes and a no. And I think timing is quite important as well. Yeah.

对，我们做过一期向Heidi Grant请教的“求助”节目，她是社会心理学家。她提到用邮件求助反而让人更容易拒绝，而面对面更难开口。我个人——常被求助——反而觉得当面说“不”更轻松，因为我可以用表情、语气、解释来维护关系，而邮件里我怕说错。

Yeah. We did an episode about asking for help with Heidi Grant, who's a social psychologist. And she did talk about the difference between asking via email, which in some ways gives people an easier out rather than asking face to face. I actually find, again, as someone who gets asked to do things quite a bit, I find it easier to say no in person because then I'm not as worried about damaging the relationship. I can say no with an explanation, with the appropriate body language, facial expressions so that I can make sure they understand why I'm saying no as opposed to email, which I'm afraid.

Kumathiri，你提到那种“长得像yes的长篇no”，我心里一紧：我昨天可能才写过。为了填补说“不”的尴尬，我们堆些漂亮话，结果把人绕晕。Suzanne，你来说。

Kumathiri, when you talked about those, like, wordy no's that look sound like a yes, I'm like, oh gosh. I probably did that yesterday. You know? It's just so you try to fill the space, the discomfort of saying no with something that sounds nice, but it's just confusing. Go ahead, Suzanne.

我想补充一个模式：最舒服的“被拒绝”经历，是我和对方“坐到同一边”解决共同问题。比如我和老板一起设计领导层半日 retreat，我向他申请资源，他说“不行”，却引出我们对 retreat 目标的深入讨论。

I I wanted to add an additional pattern that I noticed, which was I found that some of the best no interactions that I had were when I really was working with someone and we were quote unquote on the same side of the table against a shared problem. So there were a couple of times, for example, I was working with my boss on designing an off-site half day retreat kind of a thing for our leadership team. And I asked him for a resource. And he said, No. But what it led to was a conversation about the purpose of our off-site.

结果非常棒。我的意思是，对方不是简单一句“不行，走开”，而是说“不行，因为我是这样考虑的”，于是我意识到自己需要重新确认理解，后来我们就展开了一场很好的对话。所以现在我对我们在这里要做的事情有了更清晰的认识，也知道了什么时候再引入资源才合适。

And it was it was great. I mean, it wasn't just a no, go away. It was a no, because here's what I have in mind. And, and so I realized I needed to check my own understanding, and it turned into a really good conversation. So I have better clarity now around what we're trying to do here and when it will be appropriate to bring in a resource later.

类似的情况也发生在我和另一位教授合作时，我们想尝试一个不同的创新点子。他们说：“嗯，我不是很明白这个。”但我们一起想出了一个更好的主意。所以对方并不是对我个人说“不”，而是对“这个想法”说“不”，然后提议：“我们一起换个思路怎么样？”

A similar situation happened with a professor I was working with on a different innovation that we wanted to try. And they were like, well, I don't quite see this, but together, we came up with a much better idea. And so it wasn't saying no to me Mhmm. As an individual. It was more saying no, not to this idea, but how about we get to this other idea together?

我喜欢这个场景——什么时候是对你个人的拒绝，什么时候是对想法的拒绝。我意识到我还没跟你们分享我的练习。那段时间我频繁国际出差，所以我的请求大多是升级酒店房间、改行程、迟到一会儿之类的，结果很难成功。

I like that scene as when is it a rejection of you versus the idea. I realized I haven't shared my exercise with you. And this came during a time I was doing a ton of international travel. So most of my requests or asks were around upgrading my hotel room, changing my schedule, being able to arrive late to something. And I had a really hard time getting those.

难到我干脆在澳大利亚悉尼的一家酒店开始做这个练习。到最后，我住进了俯瞰达令港的顶层套房，礼宾部成了我最好的朋友，早上我们会拥抱。因为我用了Alison的建议：没理由不提出请求，没理由不坚定地表达我不喜欢房间对着高速公路，或者因为靠近餐厅而特别吵。

And to the point where I started this exercise actually at a hotel in Sydney, Australia. And by the end, I was in a Top Floor room looking over the Darling Harbour in Sydney. And the concierge became my best friend. Like, we would hug in the morning because I I had used Alison's advice of there's no reason I shouldn't ask. There's no reason I shouldn't be assertive that I didn't like that my room looked over a highway or that it was particularly noisy because it was near the restaurant.

但我也没有直接要求住进顶层俯瞰海港的房间。我只是用温暖、体贴的方式说：“我知道你们因为这场会议特别忙，能不能帮我看看有没有别的房间？”有一天早上我醒来，看到海港上的美丽日出，心想：谢谢你，Alison，这太棒了。

But I didn't ask to be on the Top Floor looking over the harbor either. And yet the way on which I asked was warm and thoughtful and said, I know you guys are so, you know, busy because of this conference. Is there any way to just see a different room? And I did have a moment where I was like, looky one morning woke up to this beautiful sunrise over the harbor and thought, thanks, Alison. Like, this is just amazing.

还有一次，我演讲的集合时间比我认为的早。平时我会想“算了，他们肯定有理由”，但因为我在做这个练习，我就问：“我可以晚半小时到吗？这样我的日程能宽松一点。”对方说：“当然可以，没问题。”

And, you know, even things like the call time for one of my speeches was earlier than I thought I needed to be there. Normally, would have been like, whatever. I'm sure they have a reason. But because I was doing this exercise, I said, is there any way I can show up just half an hour later? It'll give me a little bit more space in my schedule.

到后来我开始头脑风暴还能再要点什么，因为我对这种“我还能得到什么”的体验有点上瘾。然后我也遇到了Sherry的问题：我开始提一些自己都不确定能不能做到或有没有时间跟进的要求。

And they said, sure. No problem. And I got to the point where I started brainstorming more things I could ask for because I I got a little bit like high on the experience of like, what else can I get? And then and I had the same problem you had, Sherry, which is that I was starting to ask for things. I was like, I'm not even sure I can do this or may I have time to follow through on this.

于是我开始克制，不再什么都问，因为我想：“等等，我得管理好自己的能力。”总之，这个练习设置得太棒了，因为无论结果如何，你都是赢家——至少我是这么理解的。你们也有同样的感觉吗？不管得到“是”还是“否”，都觉得有收获？

And so I started holding back for asking for things because I was like, wait, I have to manage my capacity here. I mean, it's it's such a great exercise setup because you sort of win no matter what. And at least that's my interpretation. Did you all feel the same way with it that you felt like you were getting something from it, whether you got a yes or a no to the question?

Suzanne。

Suzanne.

我觉得无论如何我都会赢：要么得到“是”，要么通过认真思考我要什么、怎么表达，并在表格上记录，这本身就是双赢。

I felt like I was gonna win no matter what, either because I would get the yes, but also because it was just a really great way to be thoughtful about what I'm asking for, how I phrase it, tracking that on the sheet was just a real win win.

是的，首先。我非常同意。当我把请求当作练习的一部分时，提出请求要容易得多，这有点奇怪，因为为什么我就不能为自己提出请求呢？为什么我会因为有一份漂亮的表格可以打钩、可以把名字从列表上划掉而更开心地去请求？

Yeah, firstly. Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think it was a lot easier to ask for things when I knew I was doing that as part of an exercise, which is slightly odd because why wouldn't I be happy to ask for things just for me? Like, why am I happier asking for them because I've got a nice document where I can tick it off and say that's another name of the list.

是啊，我觉得某种程度上这像是在游戏化。对我来说，它确实冲破了那些自我对话，比如“别做那种要求升级房间的游客”或“别做那种要求额外时间的大牌演讲者”。当我想到“哦，我提出请求是有目的的”，我就能把这些念头抛开，意识到它们多么虚假。

Yeah. I mean, think in some ways it's gamifying it. And it did cut through for me, it cut through a lot of that self talk of like, don't be the hotel guests who ask for an upgrade. Like, don't be the diva speaker who ask for extra time or whatever. I could actually remove that and realize how false that was if I thought, oh, I have a purpose in asking.

Kumithini，你有话要说吗？

Kumithini, did you have something to say?

有，有。想法非常一致。我脑子里有很多限制性的想法，比如“别成为那样的人”。得面对某种恐惧。

Yeah. Yeah. Very much very much on on the same lines. There's a lot of limiting thoughts, at least in my head, to say that, oh, don't be this person. And there's a certain kind of fear to deal with.

真到那一步时可能也没多大事，但我会在脑子里把它戏剧化得很严重，结果就吓得不敢开口，于是干脆不问了。

It probably isn't that big a deal when it actually happens, but then I dramatize it in my head so much that I am so scared to ask for it. Mhmm. So I don't ask for it.

你有没有发现，被拒绝其实比你想象的更容易接受？是啊，别人对被拒是什么反应、怎么应对的，Sherry？

And did you find that the noes were easier to handle than you Worse. They would be. Yeah. How did others react to the noes or handle them, Sherry?

我原以为越问会越难。我想着，好吧，我去问，然后会被打击，会崩溃，得重新鼓足勇气再去问。但结果不是这样。

I was expecting it to get harder as I asked. I was like, okay. I'm gonna ask, and then that's gonna, like, hurt me, and I'm gonna be devastated. I'm gonna have to, like, work up all my courage to go and ask again. But that didn't happen.

嗯，事实上反而越来越容易，因为我想：我并没有崩溃啊。

Mhmm. In fact, it actually got a lot easier because I was like, I'm not devastated.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以下一次被拒就像：哦，好吧，我能承受。再下一次就是：行，没啥大不了的。长期来看，影响小多了。

So the next no was like, oh, okay. I can handle that. And then the next no was like, yeah. No big deal. It was so much less impactful long term.

它还在疼。

It it still hurts.

是的。对。不过，

Yes. Yeah. But yeah,

但它，

but it yeah,

你知道，它愈合得比我预想的快。

you know, it healed more quickly than I anticipated.

对。对。苏珊娜。

Yeah. Yeah. Suzanne.

是的，我同意它不会摧毁我们。我们会发现我们比自己想象的更有韧性。不过，我要补充一点，最让我恼火的一种“不”是听起来像“是”的“不”。——而且，——我们大家都在点头。

Yeah, I agree that it doesn't destroy us. We discover that we're more resilient than we thought maybe. However, I will add that one of the nos that really bothers me are the, It sounds like a yes, but it's actually a no. -And, like -We're all nodding.

我觉得

I think

有几个人说过，他们嘴上说“好”，但事情根本没发生。这真的让我很不舒服。

a couple of people have said, like, they said yes, but then it never really happened. And that that really does rub me the wrong way.

我能问问为什么吗，苏珊？我自己有感觉，但对你来说，为什么这这么难受？因为这感觉有点像不诚实。

Can I ask why, Susan? I mean, I have my own feeling why, but why for you is that so hard? Because it feels sort of dishonest.

我宁愿有人直接告诉我，然后我们可以谈谈。因为我觉得有些可能是因为权力差异，我比对方拥有更多被感知的正式权力，所以他们觉得不能直接说‘不’。

Like, I'd rather someone just tell me and like, let's talk about it. Because some of it I felt like was maybe a power differential where I have more perceived formal power than the other person. And so they didn't feel like they could come right out and say no.

对。

Right.

但大多数情况下，我不会请求那种像是私人帮忙的事。我甚至不会问，比如，我能延期吗？

But for the most part, I didn't ask for things that were sort of like personal favors. I didn't even ask like, Can I have an extension?

嗯。

Yeah.

对于，你知道的，对我的某项要求。更像是，我想我们一起做这件事，这是我认为我们可以推进的方式。这是我想让我们一起尝试、共同解决这个共享问题的办法。而当我听到那种“嗯，你知道的，再看吧”，或者“是啊，我们得想办法解决”，或者“哦，对，我同意。那确实是个问题”时。

On, you know, some request of me. It was more like, I want us to do this thing together, and here's how I think we could proceed. Here's something I would like us to try together to attack this shared problem. And when I hear a sort of, well, you know, we'll see, or, yeah, we'll have to figure that out, or, oh, yeah, I agree. That's a problem.

我会感到恼火。这让我想，好吧，我想努力的一件事是，如何把一个听起来像“是”但实际上是“否”的回答，搭建成更清晰的答案，也许是一个承诺，或者一个我们会继续推进的协议。

I felt irritated. And it made me think, okay, something that I wanna work on is how can I build a bridge from something that sounds like a yes, but is actually a no to a clearer answer and a promise perhaps or an agreement that we're gonna keep working on

这个？

this?

费莉西蒂。我非常赞同这些。如果你得到的“否”只是被无视，那感觉极其不被尊重。那真的、真的让我很恼火。我觉得去了解这当中可能存在多少地区差异会很有意思，因为我意识到我们英国人在这方面特别多。

Felicity. I would echo an awful lot of that. If you have a no where you're just ignored, it feels incredibly disrespectful. And that really, really annoyed me. And I think it would be interesting to understand how much of a regional difference there is potentially with this because I'm conscious that's something we have an awful lot of as English people.

人们太客气了，不说“不”，只是绕着弯子。

People are so polite, they don't say no, they just like pussyfoot round it.

卡瓦蒂里，你同意吗？

Are are you agreeing with that, Kavathiri?

嗯。所以我在伦敦，但我不是英国人。我来自印度，在那里长大。所以文化上、传统上，我的价值观都来自印度。

Yeah. So I I am in London, but I'm not English. So I'm from India. And I grew up there. So culturally, traditionally, the values all come from India for me.

我的沟通方式深深植根于那里。我正在努力忘却并重新学习。我们一直以为要说“礼貌的拒绝”，这对人们来说极其困惑，不是吗？我正在努力忘却这一点，变得更直接——如果答案是“不”，就直接说“不”。如果是“是”，或者是个问题，就直接问，而不是绕着弯子显得更客气。

And my communication is deep rooted there. I'm trying to unlearn and learn. We always thought to say polite no's, which is extremely confusing for people, isn't it? That's something that I'm trying to unlearn and be a lot more, if it's a no, just say no. Or if it's a yes, or if it's a question, just ask the question rather than trying to be nicer around all of those things.

八到十年前，我会对说“不”感到非常不舒服。我可能会选择说“是”，因为在文化上，说“不”是不被接受的，尤其是对女性。我们被教导不要反对。我们被教育不要反对。我就是被这样养大的。

Eight, ten years before, I would have been very uncomfortable to say a no. And I would probably choose to say yes because it it is culturally not okay to say no, especially for women. We are told to not disagree. We are taught to not disagree. I've been brought up that way.

对我来说，说“不”会极其困难。如果我不得不说“不”，我会找一些非常奇怪的理由来支撑。你会想我到底在说什么。所以，是的，这确实有很大的文化影响，至少从我的经验来看是这样。

It would have extremely difficult for me to say no. And if I have to say no, I would find really weird reasons to back that up. You would wonder what am I even getting to. So, yeah, it definitely has a lot of cultural effect, think so, at least from my experience.

嗯。你们觉得，因为这次经历，你们会更清楚地对别人说“不”吗？我看到很多人在点头。谁来告诉我他们在想什么。Sherry，你说。

Yeah. Do you all think you'll say no to others more clearly as a result of your experience? I see lots of nods. Someone tell me what what they're thinking. Sherry, go ahead.

嗯，我在加拿大，所以我会说一些奇怪的话，比如“是啊，不”。但老实说，我确实通过这次经历学到，“不”就是一个完整的句子，因为尊重需要这种清晰。

Well, I'm in Canada, so I'm gonna say weird things like, yeah. No. But in all honesty, I absolutely have learned through this that no is a full sentence because respect requires that clarity.

是的。Felicity？我也写下了“不就是一个完整的句子”这句话，顺便说一句，这是简·方达的名言。

Yes. Felicity? I'd written down that no is a complete sentence phrase as well, which by the way, was a Jane Fonda quote.

哦，是吗？

Oh, is it?

绝对的偶像。是的。所以对我来说，“不就是一个完整的句子”有它的适用场景。但我发现最有用的“不”，是那些带有上下文的“不”，而不仅仅是光秃秃的“不”。

Absolute icon. Yeah. Yeah. So for me, I think no is a complete sentence has its place. But the no's that I found most helpful that wants to have context rather than just no.

所以我做了很多“不”。我越意识到它有多有用，我就越喜欢说“不”。

So I've done a load of no's. The more I realized how helpful it was, the more I was like, loving no's.

听起来我们正在建立一个等级体系。比如，那种表面说“是”其实是“不”的情况是我们最不喜欢的，对吧？然后是“不”，至少它是清晰的。

Well, it sounds like we're coming up with like a hierarchy. Like there's the yes that's really a no is our least favorite. Right? And then there's the no. At least it's clear.

对吧？这其实是一种回应。不是。然后还有一种带着上下文的“不是”，对我们来说最有用。我……我确实想回到艾莉森在我们最初那期节目里、以及在她的书《可爱的狠角色》里给出的建议，因为这次练习的一部分也是弄清楚如何把温暖和坚定结合起来。

Right? There's an actual response. No. And then there's the no with the context, which to us is the most useful. I I do wanna go back to Alison's advice from from our original episode and from her book, Likable Badass, because part of this exercise is also finding out how to combine this warmth and assertiveness.

所以提出要求本身在某种程度上就是坚定的。你们有没有想过怎样提得也带点温度？苏珊娜？

So the ask itself is assertive in some ways. Did you all think about how to ask in a way that was also warm? Suzanne?

我对这一点特别着迷。说实话我有点矛盾，因为这在某些方面听起来像是女性常听到的典型建议：别太坚定，记得撒点温暖。我从反馈里知道自己有时更偏坚定，温暖不足。所以，比如我跟老板提要求时，我老板有一点我很喜欢——他反复让我知道他认可我的能力，也觉得我有趣、有温度。因此我不会担心“哎呀，他会不会觉得我太过坚定”。

I was really fascinated by that aspect. And I have to say I was a little bit of two minds because it seemed like in some ways, could be kind of a typical advice that women would get, which is don't be too assertive, make sure you add a sprinkling of warmth on everything. And I know from feedback I've gotten that I sometimes land more on the assertive side of the spectrum and less on the warmth. So, you know, in my interactions, in my ask, for example, with my boss, one of the things I love about my boss is that I don't feel I feel like he repeatedly lets me know that he finds me competent and also funny and warm. So I don't worry so much about, oh, he's gonna think I'm being overly assertive.

所以我在跟他提要求时——很多都是通过 Teams 聊天直接说的——我根本没纠结，直接开门见山：嘿，我想要这个资源。得到“不行”，我们再一起解决。

So in my asks with him, which a lot of it was just happening virtually on, like, a Teams chat, I didn't worry about it. I was just really straight to the point, you know, hey. I'd like this resource. Got the no. We worked it out.

当然，我还是希望显得可亲、善解人意。是啊，我真正需要思考的是怎样传达“我们一起解决问题”？不是“我要这个东西”的坚定，而是“看看这是不是我们共同难题的一个解法”，我有个主意。

Again, there's part of me of course, I want to be approachable and and understanding. Yeah. What I really need to think about is how do I communicate the shared problem solving? Not so much the assertiveness of I want this thing, but rather, let's see if this might be a solution to our shared problem. Here's an idea.

对，甚至一开始就点出这个共同难题。我的意图是解决我们共同面对的问题。这是我要做的，或这是能帮我们的一个主意。

Right. Even stating the shared problem Right. Upfront. My intention is to solve this shared problem. Here's what I need to do that, or here's an idea that could help us do that.

还有谁想到“温度”这个问题？

Did anyone else think about the warmth aspect?

所以，在进一段我知道必须提要求的对话前，我会快速准备：背景是什么？他们在忙啥？我在忙啥？我们处在什么阶段？

So, before I go into a conversation, where I know I have to ask, I quickly prepare myself. Just what's the context? What are they doing? What am I doing? Where are we at?

他们想要什么？我想要什么？好让这件事对他们有吸引力，对吧？然后我会明确自己的意图。我觉得温度就来自这个意图。

What do they want? What do I want? Just to position this in a way that is appealing for them, right? And then I always clarify my intent. And I think the warmth comes from the intent.

接着我总会看他们能从中得到什么。是我开口求，但给的人是他们。所以他们得到啥？我有没有认真想过他们能得到啥？我老惦记着这三点：CIB——背景、意图、好处。

And then I always look at what do they get from it. I am the one asking, but they are the one giving it. So what do they get? Am I even thoughtful about what do they get? And I always think about these three things, CIB context, intent and benefit.

通常都会如愿。就算没如愿，结果反而更好，因为他们想出来的东西比我原本要求的还要棒，我会说，哇，太好了，那就照你说的做吧。

And it usually works out. If it doesn't work out, it works out even better because they come up with something even better than what I had thought, what I had asked. And I was like, oh, wonderful. Let's let's do what you said.

我得说一句，这个CIB，我正在记下来，我看到其他人也在记。因为我大部分的笔记——其实之前没说——大部分都来自我十几岁的女儿，她跟我一起做这项练习。作为家长，我经常把要求简化：你得答应，因为我是你爸；或者你得答应，因为你以后会明白这对你有好处。但CIB，先理解背景，再说明我的意图，我为什么要提这个要求，以及这会带来什么好处——

I have to say this CIB, I I'm I'm writing it down as I can see some of the others are too. Because most of my nose and and I didn't share this earlier, but most of my nose were actually from my teenage daughter who was also doing this exercise along with me. And as a parent, I often shortcut the request. I'm like, you'll say yes because I'm the parent, or you'll say yes because you will understand why this is good for you. But that CIB, even understanding the context, stating my intention, why am I asking this, and then how is this gonna benefit?

太聪明了。

It's so smart.

是啊，在我女儿身上效果最好。

Yeah. It's it's worked best with my daughter than anybody else.

对，我想告诉你，如果你有女儿，或者任何孩子，甚至是你指导的人，让他们做这练习。第一天我女儿回家就说：我今天得了附加分，而且——

Yeah. I was to tell you, if you have daughters or kids of any and even people you mentor, for example, like, tell them to do this exercise. My daughter first day came home and was like, I just got extra credit. And I just I didn't have

——我今天不用考试，因为我问能不能明天再考。

to take this test today because I asked if I

我问：老师会不会因此对你看法不一样？我问她：你觉得老师怎么想？她说：我觉得其实让我们的关系更好了，因为我们聊了很久，她知道我女儿插班进来，错过了之前的附加分机会。

could take it tomorrow. And I said, oh, does that teacher think differently of you? I asked her that question. I said, what do you think the teacher thinks? And and she said, I think it actually really helped improve our relationship because we had a whole conversation about how I had because my daughter had started this class late, so she had missed out on this other extra credit opportunity before.

所以她说：我觉得老师更理解我了，因为我开口提了这些。对她来说，这是地位的提升。我也想到，Allison 整个练习的核心，以及她“坏女人”理论的核心，就是提升我们的地位。你们怎么想？你们觉得这个练习提升了你们的地位吗？

So she said, I actually think she understands me better because I asked for these things. For her, it was a rise in status. And I think about, you know, Allison's whole point in this exercise and her whole point with like, badass is improving our status. What did you all think? Do you think this exercise ended up improving your status?

当然，我觉得百分之百。我注意到两点：第一，它提高了你的可见度。当你更敢于说出自己想要什么、需要什么，人们突然开始注意到你，会觉得：哦，她有点东西，咱们听听她怎么说。

Yeah. I think 100%. A couple of things that I've noticed is one, it improves your visibility. I think people suddenly start to notice you because you're more vocal about your wants, what you need. They start to believe like, oh, she is up to something.

于是大家更关注我们的想法和发言，这很有用。而且会产生连锁反应：我在工作中自认为是个领导者，带头、负责、主动，但如果我不够坚定、不敢大胆开口，这些特质就体现不出来。现在我只是开口提了要求，他们终于看到了我眼中的自己。

Let's listen to her. And there's suddenly more attention that's given to what we are thinking, what we're saying. I think that's really useful. And there's a kind of a domino effect of that because whatever I believe I am as a person at work, that I'm a leader, I lead, I take charge, I'm proactive, whatever I think I am, it doesn't show up that way, probably because I am not assertive, probably because I am not taking the bold steps to ask and say. And just because I've done that now, they see the way I see myself.

这正是我想要的。所以我我我觉得这确实对我有利，至少对我来说是这样。

And that's exactly what I want. So I I I think it's definitely worked in my favor for me, at least.

我从未把这个练习当作一种让自己对自己的认知与他人对你的看法保持一致的方式，但这个练习的一个深远结果就是，通过更多地展现自己，你让别人更多地看到了真实的你。Suzanne。

I haven't thought about the exercise as a way to align your own perception of yourself with what others think of you, but that's just sort of profound result of this exercise is by putting yourself out there more, you're letting people see more of of who you are. Suzanne.

我觉得这是个很棒的观点。而且我认为，随着我们进入或提升我们的领导力，表现得像我们想要成为的领导者，有一本很棒的书叫《像领导者一样行动，像领导者一样思考》。所以，对我们所要求的事情进行深思熟虑，这是让别人了解我们在乎什么、我们在努力什么、我们的方向是什么的一个很好的窗口。我觉得这可以成为一个非常棒的窗口，并且以这种方式行动，最终也会成为现实。

I think that's a great point. And I think that as we move into or advance in our leadership, acting like the leader that we want to be, there's that great book, Act Like a Leader, Think Like a Leader. And so being thoughtful about the things that we're asking for, that's a great way to give other people a window into what we care about, what we're working on, what our direction is. I think it can be a really wonderful window and acting that way, which then becomes the reality.

非常感谢你们四位抽出时间。我知道做这个练习花费了很多时间和精力。很明显你们都非常认真地对待它。所以谢谢你们。

Thank you to the four of you so much for making the time. I know doing the exercise took a lot of time and effort. It's clear you all took it very seriously. So thank you for that.

谢谢你。谢谢你邀请我们。很高兴认识你们其他人。

Thank you. Thank you for inviting us. It was lovely to meet the rest of you.

我也是。非常感谢这个机会。很棒的对话。

Likewise. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Great conversation.

正如你所听到的，做这个练习考验了我们对人们是否愿意满足我们需求和愿望的假设。我们也在愿望清单上划掉了很多项目，学会了不再那么害怕被拒绝，并获得了地位。在这次对话之后，我仍有一些问题，关于哪些做得好，哪些做得不好，以及Allison认为这个练习为何如此有影响力。所以我和她快速聊了一下。Allison，非常感谢你回来和我们聊聊。

As you heard, doing the exercise tested our assumptions about people's willingness to meet our wants and needs. We also crossed off lots of items on our wish lists, learned to fear rejection less, and gained status. After this conversation, I still had a few questions about what worked well, what didn't, and what Allison thinks makes this exercise so impactful. So she and I quickly checked in. Allison, thank you so much for coming back to to talk with us.

嗯，我感谢你想到这个好主意，把这个练习变成听众的一次体验，并邀请我回来参与。所以

Well, I thank you for coming up with this great idea to turn this exercise into an experience for your listeners and for inviting me back to do it. So

嗯，很好。所有的功劳都归功于我们的制作人Amanda，她说，我们可以把这个变成一个练习。我打赌听众会愿意做，她是对的。而且，显然，我们的听众从中收获了很多。我确实想问你几个人们遇到的问题。

Well, good. And all credit goes to our producer, Amanda, who was like, we can turn this into an exercise. I bet listeners would do it, and she was right. And, obviously, our listeners took so much away from it. I did wanna ask you a couple things that people came up against.

你听到Suzanne说，那种听起来像“是”但其实是否定的回应最让她困扰。而那次对话中的其他人都完全同意。我也同意，这非常令人沮丧。我想听听你建议我们如何处理这种摇摆不定，甚至，我觉得Suzanne称之为不诚实，当我们得到一个“是”，但我们怀疑它最终会变成“否”，或者其实根本就是“否”。所以，复述和重复是在所有关系中都很好的技巧。

You heard Suzanne said that the type of response that really bothered her was the one that sounds like a yes, but it's actually a no. And everyone else in that conversation completely agreed. I agree how that's incredibly frustrating. I'd love to hear how do you recommend we handle that kind of flip flopping or even, I mean, think Suzanne called it dishonesty when we get a yes that we suspect is either gonna become a no or is actually truly a no. So paraphrase and repeat is a great technique in all relationships.

我觉得我听到你说的是，你希望能帮到我，但是

What I think I hear you saying is that you'd like to be able to help me, but

这件事目前可能行不通，或者你觉得不合适。而让人开口说话的最好办法就是误解他们，替他们说出错误的话。他们会迫不及待纠正你。是的。所以通过转述和重复，要么你说对了，他们会说“对，就是这样”。

this isn't something that's going to work at this time or whatever feels right. And the greatest way to get someone to talk to you is to misunderstand them and put the wrong words in their mouth. They can't wait to correct you. Yes. So by paraphrasing and repeating, you'll either get it right and they'll say yes, that's right.

要么你说错了，他们会很快补充更多信息来纠正你。所以这是我在任何场合都会用的技巧，不仅限于你觉得对方说“是”其实可能是“不”的情况。

Or you'll get it wrong and they will be very quick to try to add more information to say that you've got it wrong. So that's a technique I would always use in any kind of situation, not just a situation where you've heard a yes that you think might be a no.

好的。另外一件事是人们提到的情况，也发生在我们采访的人身上，还有一些邮件联系的人：他们先答应，然后消失了。对吧？他们说了“是”，接着就人间蒸发了，后续完全联系不上。

Okay. And then the other thing people mentioned happened, and and this was true for the people we spoke to, but also some of the people who we emailed with, is that people said yes and then ghosted. Right? Like, they said yes, and then they just sort of disappeared. They couldn't get a follow-up.

有什么建议吗？我脑子里蹦出的词是“把人揪出来”，但这不是我的意思。就是让人跟进，就像我们刚才讨论的，尤其是那种已经失联的人。

Any advice on the phrase that came to mind was hunting people down, but that's not what I mean. Sort of getting people to follow through like we were talking about, but especially someone you've lost contact with in some way.

嗯，我也遇到过。我现在还能想起几个例子，我怎么也想不通他们为什么突然消失。所以我觉得有时候你永远得不到一个满意的答案，你就是不知道为什么。

Yeah. I mean, I've had this happen to me. I can still think of examples where this happens where I cannot and I cannot for the life of me figure out why people go sit. So I just think like sometimes you just never get a satisfying answer. And you just don't know why.

但同样的技巧依然适用：当你还在对话中时，最好设法掌控下一步。所以快结束时可以说：“那么接下来应该怎么做？”如果对方你不太熟，或者不确定他们是否会跟进，就把下一步揽到自己身上，说：“我会在这时候给你发邮件”或者“我会做某某事”，你觉得这样可以吗？这样他们就成了决定下一步的伙伴，但球至少在你手里。

But the same techniques apply, which is when you're live in a conversation, one of the things you want to hopefully control is the next move. So as we're ending this to say, okay, well what should happen next? And if it's someone that you maybe you don't know very well, or you're not sure like whether they'll follow through to put the next move on you And to say what I'm going to do is I'm going to write to you or I'm going to do whatever at this moment. Does that feel right to you? And so they can be your partner and saying what the next move is, but you at least get to have it be in your court.

我觉得很多时候我们把主动权给对方，这也有好处，因为活儿就在他们盘子里。但如果对方你不确定能否再联系上，或者你们联系渠道有限，这就很冒险，因为他们一消失你就无计可施。最后一招是看看有没有共同认识的人能代你出面，如果事情真的很重要。我有时就这么做：谁还认识这个人，也许能收到回应。这样你就能了解到底发生了什么，因为每一个不负责任的“幽灵”背后，也可能有各种正当原因让人消失，对吧？

I think a lot of times we give it to the other person, which can be advantageous because then work is on their plate, not ours. But if it's a person that you're not sure you're going to hear from or you have enough ways to stay in touch with, that could be risky because then they disappear and there's nothing you can do. The last ditch effort is to figure out if there is a mutual connection that could reach out on your behalf if it's really important. And I've tried that sometimes to say, okay, who knows this person and might get a better response. And that way you can figure out what other things happen because for every person who just is irresponsible and ghosts, you know, there's all kinds of other legitimate reasons why people disappear, right?

他们生活里出了坏事；他们没收到你的邮件；他们换了邮箱；他们失业了，现在在做别的事……所以找个共同认识的人可能是你最后的办法，让对方知道：“嘿，有人一直在找你。”

Something bad has happened in their life. They never got your email, they changed their email address, They they lost their job and now they're doing, you know, whatever. Yeah. So using a mutual person could be your last ditch effort to say, hey, I know someone's been trying to get in touch with you.

嗯。我还想问你另一件事，是库玛蒂尼分享的心得。她说这次练习让她把自己对“领导者”的自我认知，和别人对她的看法对齐了。她的意思是，她更敢于说出自己想要的东西，而这样做之后，别人也开始把她看作她心目中的那位领导者。我被这句话深深打动，也想问问你在这次练习里有没有听到类似的反馈。

Yeah. The other thing I wanted to ask about was a takeaway that Kumathini shared, which is she said the exercise ended up being a way to align her perception of herself as a leader with others perceptions of her. And what she meant by that was that she was voicing what she wanted more. And in doing that, people were seeing her more as the leader she sees herself as. I was so touched by that and wondered if that's something you had heard from this exercise as well.

我从未听过有人把话说得这么漂亮。但确实如此，越多人知道你想要什么，他们就越愿意给你；同时他们也会把你视为一个敢于主张自我的人，而你的主张不仅是为了个人私利，也是为了大家的共同利益。

I haven't heard it articulated as beautifully as that. But absolutely, the more people know what you want, the more they will give it to you. And the more they will see you as a person who will assert themselves, but will do it not just for a selfish benefit, but also for the benefit of everybody.

是的。谢谢你。首先，再次感谢你写了这么棒的书；也谢谢你带我们做了这个有趣的练习，结果成了一段非常棒的旅程。当然，对所有参与的人来说都是如此。

Yeah. Thank you. First of all, thank you again for writing such an amazing book. But thank you for setting us on this fun exercise, which has turned out to be a really great journey Of course. For everyone who did it.

那是因为你们拥有最棒的听众。

That's because you have the best listeners.

我们的确拥有最棒的听众，这绝对是事实。更自由、更热情地提出自己想要的东西，是我希望自己在我女儿这个年纪就能掌握的技能。哈珀17岁，她加入艾莉森的“鼻子挑战”时就把我迷住了；接着她自告奋勇来分享经历，更是让我刮目相看。

We do have the best listeners. That is absolutely true. Asking more freely and warmly for what I want is a skill I wish I'd developed when I was my daughter's age. Harper's 17, and she charmed me by joining in on Allison's nose challenge. Then she outdid herself by volunteering to talk about how it went.

我是说，我觉得这会

I mean, I thought it'd

很好玩。我也很喜欢这个播客。我喜欢被包括进来。

be fun. I also love the podcast. I like to be included.

你喜欢我谈论你？好吧。那么告诉我，你提出了什么请求？

You like when I talk about you? Yeah. Alright. So tell me, what did you ask for?

好的。大多是向老师要额外加分。我问我科学老师，能不能在截止日期很久之后还能获得额外学分，她说可以。

Okay. A lot of it was extra credit from teachers. I asked my science teacher if I could get extra credit way past the due date for it. And she said, yes.

我印象很深，因为那是你第一次开口；你之前跟我说过她拒绝了，说你因为上课迟到所以不能拿额外学分。完全没错。那是什么让你又去问？你是怎么说的？

And I I was impressed that was your first ask because you had previously told me that she had said, no, you're not getting the extra credit Yeah. Because you were late in the class and that was gonna disqualify you. Totally. So what made you ask? Like, what did you say?

放学后我去找她，我说，我一直在非常努力，我真的很想要这份额外学分。然后她说，好的。

I went up to her after school and I don't know. I said, I've been working really hard and how I really would like the extra credit. Yeah. And she said, yes.

有人反对吗？

Was there any pushback?

她当时说，走着瞧吧。嗯，对。好吧。然后又说，我这就去办。对。

She was like, we'll see. Well, yeah. Okay. And then was like, I'll put it in right now. Right.

另外很多就是请朋友们帮个忙。比如让朋友改坐公交上学，别搭我的车，这样我就能载别人。对。结果他们全都答应了。

And then a lot of it was also just asking my friends for favors. Like, asking friends if they could take the bus to school instead of driving with me so that I could take someone else. Right. And those were all yeses too.

他们全都答应了。

Those were all yeses.

我只收到两个“不”，而且都是短信回的。是什么情况？我问朋友能不能……我们有大学来访，就是大学来我学校

I only got two no's, and both of them were over text. And what were those? I asked friends if they could we have college visits, like, colleges come to my school

嗯。

Yeah.

给我们做介绍。我问他们能不能来听一场，结果只有我一个人到场。就我和招生官。对。所以挺有意思的。

To talk to us. And I asked them if they would come to a college visit, and that was just me there. It was just me and an admissions counselor. Right. So that's really interesting.

我所有的“行”都是当面说的，所有的“不”都是短信回的。

All of my yeses were in person and all of my noes were over text.

这确实……有趣的是，做这项练习的女性也有类似经历。不过她们提到，当面答应的“行”后来有时会变“不”。哦。她们觉得有人只是因为在对视才不好意思拒绝。嗯。

That is inter that's actually the women who did this exercise as well had similar experiences. Although, one of the things they said was that their yeses in person sometimes turned out to be a no. Like Oh. Like they've sensed that people just said yes because they were looking them in the eye. Yeah.

你那些答应的“行”里，后来有变成“不”的吗？

Did any of your yeses turn out to actually be noes?

是的，其实。既然你这么说，就在前几天，我问我的朋友愿不愿意和我一起去Artsgiving。

Yes, actually. Now that you're saying this, just the other day, I asked my friend if she would go to the Artsgiving with me.

对，那是一个课后活动。

Right. Which is like an after school event.

嗯。她答应了，然后却没出现。她放我鸽子了。我意识到的一点是，我敢于提出自己的需求。

Yeah. And she said yes and then didn't show up. She didn't show up. She ghosted. And this is something that I did realize is that I'm not afraid to ask for what I want.

我觉得这得益于有一群非常亲密的朋友，还有很好的老师。我所有的请求都是平时我会开口的事。实际上，这让我更敢于说“不”。你说了“不”，对。

I think that comes with, like, having a really close knit group of friends and also teachers who are really good people. Like, all of my asks were something that I I felt that I would normally ask for. And actually, I think that it brought me to saying no more. Meaning, you said no. Yeah.

因为我意识到，我所有的请求，如果对方拒绝，我大不了找别人问，或者也不会是什么天塌下来的事。

Because I realized that all of my asks, I feel like if they said no, I would just either find another person to ask or it wouldn't be a terrible thing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我会调整。我在想，为什么我能这么轻松地开口？我觉得是你把我养成了一个观念：开口提要求是可以的。你确实教过我这一点。

I would just adjust. I was thinking about this, like, why is it so easy for me to ask for things? And I think that you raised me with that idea that, like, it's okay to ask for things. You've definitely taught that

我……我现在特别有种“当妈的骄傲”，我把你养成了一个敢开口的人，可我真想不起来我什么时候说过——好吧，我确实记得我鼓励过你提要求，但你看到我具体向谁要过什么，让你觉得这很自在？

to me. I'm I'm having a proud mom moment of that I raised you to ask for things, but I honestly can't remember ever telling well, I can imagine I remember coaching you to ask for things, but what did you see me ask for that that made you feel comfortable?

嗯，很多不同的事。我觉得从让我和爸爸带Emmett去遛狗，到因为太忙而让我们做晚饭，甚至我听过你给信用卡公司、航空公司这些地方打电话，一直在提各种要求。

Yeah. A lot of different things. I think I think that it varies from, like, asking me and my dad to just, like, take Emmett for a walk or dog or make dinner because you're too busy or even like, I've heard you on the phone with credit card companies and, you know, airplane companies, like, all these different places just asking for things.

对。

Right.

就是通过看到你开口争取并成功得到的例子。

It was through example of just seeing you ask for what you want and get it.

我确实得到了。

I do get it.

你

You

这样做会强化一种感觉：当你开口并且真的得到了，对，之后再开口就容易多了。

do This get is reinforcing is that when you ask and you actually get it Yeah. Then it feels so much easier

完全同意。开口去要。完全同意。

Totally. To ask. Totally.

另一件我想问你、也想坦白的事是，我在和那些做这项练习的女性谈话时确实说过，我收到的‘不’大多来自你。

The other thing I wanted to ask you well, I wanna confess to you is that I did say in my conversation with the women who did this exercise that most of my nose came from you.

哦，真的吗？

Oh, really?

是的。所以我笑着想，对你来说，这项练习的一部分就是更擅长说‘不’。但当然，我的意思是，当然，对我很容易说‘不’。

Yes. And so I'm smiling thinking that for you, part of the exercise was getting better at saying no. But of course, I mean, of course, the reasons it's easy to say no to me.

等等，我好奇，我拒绝了什么？

Wait. I'm curious. What did I say no to?

我……我想我可能……我没有记录。我没你那么厉害。哈珀这里有一整份清单，标着‘是’和‘否’还有日期。对，我敢肯定当时让你帮忙收拾，你毫不犹豫地说了‘不’。

I I think I probably I don't I didn't document. I wasn't as good as you. Harper has a whole list here with yes and nos and dates. Yeah. I'm sure it was asked to help clean up, which you you have no problem saying no to.

好吧。我觉得我曾经让你按时准备好某件事，而你没有拒绝，只是没有按时准备好。我觉得你无视了我的请求，然后继续过你的日子。

Alright. And I think I asked you to be ready on time for something. And you didn't say no. You just weren't ready on time. I think you ignored the request and then just went on your with your days.

那么，问题来了。如果我们考虑温暖和坚定这两种特质的结合，我该怎么问才能把它们结合起来，让你更可能答应呢？真希望所有听众都能看到你现在脸上的坏笑，好像在说，你绝对问不出这样的问题。

Well, here's a question. If we think about that warmth and assertiveness combination, how could I ask you in a way that combines those things that would get you to say yes more often? I wish all our listeners could see the smirk on your face right now. As if you know, there's no way you can ask that one.

我我觉得你可以把重点放在这对我有什么帮助上。因为我相信很多孩子——我确定很多孩子都有共鸣——当你一遍又一遍地问这类问题时，会变得很容易……

I I think that you could present it as in why it would be helpful to you. Because I I think a lot of kids I'm sure kids can relate to this where when you ask those kind of questions over and over again, it gets very easy to

说“现在”。而如果你……或者干脆无视它们。

say now. Whereas if you were Or ignore them.

嗯。比如，“我真的很想准时到，我已经跟朋友说了我们会准时到，你能准备好吗？”我觉得我会更愿意配合。

Yeah. Like, hey, I really wanna be on time for this. I told my friend that we'd be there at a certain time. Can you please be ready? I think that I'd be a lot more inclined.

对。

Right.

如果你给出

If you gave

再多一点解释的话。

a little bit more of an explanation.

谢谢你做这个。另外，现在正是开口要圣诞礼物的好时机。

Thank you for doing this. Also, now would be a really good time to ask for what you want for Christmas.

我确实想要一条重力毯，那是我清单上的第一位。好吧，我喜欢舒服的感觉。

I did really want a weighted blanket. I think that's the top of my list. Okay. I like to be cozy.

我知道你有。那么你的工作愿望清单上有什么？借鉴艾莉森收集鼻子的练习，开始争取更多你想要的东西。正如你今天听到的，提出请求的过程——而不仅仅是得到“是”或“否”——都能重塑你对可能性的看法。第十季就到这里结束。

I know you do. So what's on your work wish list? Take a page from Allison's collecting nose exercise and start asking for more of what you want. As you've heard today, the process of asking, not just whether you get a yes or a no, can reshape your view of what's possible. And that's a wrap on season ten.

这一季，艾米·B和我探讨了很多话题：焦虑、人工智能、照护、职业转变，并且比以往任何时候都有更多听众参与，我们非常喜欢。在我们暂停发布新节目的几个月里，现在是重温旧爱的好时机。如果你从未听过《尊重任何体型》或《职场友谊大多美好，有时也一团糟》，这两期是我个人的最爱。希望你能去听听。如果你还没订阅我撰写的免费月刊《女性职场》，可以考虑在hbr.org/newsletters注册。

This season, Amy b and I have covered so much anxiety, AI, caregiving, career changes, with more audience participation than ever, which we love. While we take a couple months off from publishing new episodes, now is the perfect time to revisit old favorites. If you've never listened to Respect for Any Body Size or Work Friendships Are Mostly Amazing and Sometimes Messy, those are two of my old favorites. I hope you'll check them out. If you don't already receive the free monthly women at work newsletter that I write, consider signing up at hbr.org/newsletters.

网址是hbr.org/newsletters。如果你想给一位有抱负的朋友或家人送一份实用又有价值的节日礼物，可以考虑订阅《哈佛商业评论》。hbr.org/subscriptions。好了，虽然你在这节目里听到的是艾米·B和我，但背后有一整个团队让这一切成为可能。

That's hbr.org/newsletters. And if you're looking to give an ambitious friend or family member a practical valuable gift for the holidays, consider a subscription to HBR. Hbr.org/subscriptions. Okay. While you hear Amy, b, and I on this show, there is an entire team behind us that makes this all happen.

《女性职场》的编辑与制作团队包括阿曼达·克西、莫琳·霍克、蒂娜·托比·麦克、罗布·埃克哈特、埃里卡·特拉克勒、伊恩·福克斯和汉娜·贝茨。罗宾·摩尔创作了本节目的主题音乐。2025年再见。

So Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Toby Mac, Rob Eckhart, Erica Trucksler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed this theme music. More from us in 2025.