该分享什么，该保留什么

您正在收听哈佛商业评论的《职场女性》节目。我是艾米·加洛。我是艾米·伯恩斯坦。

You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Gallo. And I'm Amy Bernstein.

我们将在节目中尝试新形式——重温早年经典集数并注入新视角。2018年我曾有幸与已故的哥伦比亚商学院教授凯瑟琳·菲利普斯（凯西）对话，她关于多样性、真实性及团队协作的研究被广泛引用且影响深远。她谈及我们多数人面临的矛盾：既渴望建立联结，又担心坦诚可能适得其反。

We're starting something new on the show. We're revisiting some of our favorite episodes from earlier years and bringing in some fresh perspective. In 2018, I had the pleasure of speaking with the late Catherine Phillips, Kathy, a Columbia Business School professor whose research on diversity, authenticity, and how people work together has been widely cited and deeply influential. She talks about the tension so many of us feel between wanting to connect and fearing that being open might backfire.

现实是我们都处在自我认同的探索中，对披露个人信息的舒适度各不相同。我们都有归属需求，却常担心强调自身差异会让我们在环境中显得格格不入。

The reality is that we're all on our own journeys of identity and how comfortable we are disclosing various things about ourselves. We all have a need for belonging, and we oftentimes have concerns that if we highlight things that are different about us, that somehow that might make us feel like we don't belong where we are.

这场对话录制于《职场女性》现场活动，当时我与联合主持人莎拉·格林·卡迈克尔、妮可·托雷斯，以及负责主持的资深制作人阿曼达·克西共同参与。该内容后以《职场自我披露与麦克风背后》为题发布。

The conversation took place at a live taping of women at work. I was joined by my then cohost, Sarah Green Carmichael and Nicole Torres, and by our senior producer, Amanda Kersey, who moderated the conversation. We later published the episode as self disclosure at work and behind the mic.

本次重温版由阿曼达重新剪辑，聚焦凯西的声音、研究、反思，以及那些历久弥新的洞见。

For this revisit, Amanda re edited the conversation to focus on Kathy's voice, her research, her reflections, and the insights that feel just as relevant now as they did then.

她开场便反思为何自我披露始终是《职场女性》的核心元素，以及凯西的研究如何让她重新理解这一选择。

She opened by reflecting on why self disclosure was part of women at work from the beginning and how Kathy's research helped her see that choice in a new light.

再次感谢各位到来。当初策划《职场女性》节目风格时，对我来说至关重要的是让主持人的个人故事——不仅是职业生涯，还包括生活经历——成为节目核心。我知道这些女性充满智慧，经历丰富，风趣幽默且擅长叙事。

Again, thank you everybody for coming. When we were figuring out what women at work was gonna sound like when we were developing the show, One of the things that was important to me was to have stories from the hosts personal stories, not just from their careers but from the rest of their life be essential to this show. From my perspective, I knew that these women were full of insights, all of their experiences. They are funny. They are great storytellers.

但直到接触您的研究，我才真正理解职场中敞开心扉的额外益处。能否请您谈谈关于职场自我披露的研究发现？

But it wasn't really until reading about your research that I understood that there were more benefits to opening up about ourselves at work. So could you talk about what some of the research says about self disclosure in the workplace?

当然可以。过去二十多年我致力于团队多样性与包容性研究。该领域一个重要发现是：多元化团队通常比同质化团队更难建立凝聚力。这促使我退后几步思考：团队凝聚力究竟如何形成？

Yeah, so absolutely. So I've been doing research on diversity and inclusion in teams for the last twenty plus years. And one of the major findings in that literature is that diverse groups tend to be less cohesive than homogeneous ones. And so I actually started thinking about that and took like two or three steps back to think about how do teams actually become cohesive? I mean, is that?

真正的凝聚力是什么？如何构建？与同事探讨时，我们查阅文献后发现：凝聚力本质上是人际关系——是联结、信任，是与共事者建立真实关系。而这需要一定程度的自我披露。

What is actual cohesion? And how do you build it? And so as I started having conversations about that with some colleagues of mine, we started looking at the literature and we actually realized that a lot of what cohesion is, is actually relationship. It's connection, it's trust, it's building a real relationship with the people that you work with. And that requires some self disclosure.

这意味着你需要分享关于自己的事情。而我自身的一些个人经历确实促使我思考这个问题——思考为何有时我会对每天共事的同事分享个人私事感到不适。那些我以为信任的人，那些我以为关系很好的人，却让我在分享信息时不由自主地有所保留。这让我意识到，我需要更深入地理解如何在职场中跨越界限建立关系。

It means you have to share things about yourself. And I had some personal experiences of my own that actually drove me to think about that. To think about how uncomfortable sometimes I was with sharing personal things about myself with my colleagues that I worked with every day. That I thought I trusted, that I thought I had great relationship with, yet I found myself censoring some of the information that I was willing to share with them. And it gave me kind of the insight that I needed to understand a little bit more about how to build relationships across boundaries in the workplace.

因为我认为这对帮助多元化团队发挥潜力至关重要。这是一种平衡艺术。我们知道多样性可以带来不同的观点和想法，但你必须愿意倾听这些不同观点，必须愿意尊重并运用它们。而这需要凝聚力，需要良好的人际关系。

Because I think it's gonna be super critical for helping those diverse teams reach their potential. And so it's a kind of a balancing act. We know that diversity can bring different perspectives and ideas to the table but you have to be willing to hear those different perspectives and you have to be willing to respect and use those And that requires that cohesion, that relationship.

是的。你有个故事——我希望你能简单讲讲，当同事问你周末做了什么的时候...

Yes. You have this story that I was hoping you could tell briefly about when one of your colleagues asked you what you Yeah, did over the

好的。这个故事实际上开启了我的研究课题。这位同事至今仍与我共事，我们已共事多年。当时我生日将至，特别兴奋——

okay. So this is the story that actually started this research stream. So this colleague is a colleague of mine still to this day. We've been colleagues for many, many years now. And I was having a birthday and I was all excited about it.

你知道当生日落在周末时那种双倍喜悦：周五开始就能庆祝整个周末。所有同事都知道我生日。所以当我周一神采奕奕地出现时，大家问：生日过得怎样？周末做了什么？

Know when your birthday falls on a weekend, how it's like really, really exciting like it's Friday and I got the whole weekend to celebrate my birthday. So everybody knew that it was my birthday. So when I showed back up at work on Monday all happy you know happy go lucky, my colleagues said well how was your birthday? You know what did you do this weekend? How did it go?

我说：'哦，我们出去吃了晚餐，和多年未见的好友聚会，还去了场音乐会。'他立刻追问：'音乐会？看了谁的演出？'

And I was like, oh, you know, we went out to dinner. I got together with some really good friends of mine that I hadn't seen in years. We went out to dinner and we went to a concert. And he was like, oh, a concert. Who did you go see?

我搪塞道：'说了你也不认识'，然后迅速把话题转向餐厅。但这件事困扰了我很久——为什么不愿告诉他我去看了柯克·富兰克林的演出？这位非裔福音歌手非常有名。

I was like, you don't you wouldn't know him. And, you know, we just we had dinner at this great restaurant and da da da. And so I just kind of like swept under the rug who it was that I had gone to see. And it bothered me for a while. I kept thinking to myself, why didn't I wanna share with him that I had gone to see Kirk Franklin who is a gospel, an African American gospel artist, very popular.

当时莫名觉得：他可能不认识这位歌手，而这会凸显我的黑人身份，或是我的基督徒身份——这些似乎不该与他分享。但转念一想：他向来毫不迟疑地和我分享他看过的各种乐队，那些名字我闻所未闻。

But somehow I just felt like he wouldn't know who this person was and maybe it would highlight that I'm black. Maybe it would highlight that I'm Christian. And so I just kind of felt like those were things that perhaps I shouldn't share with him. But as I thought about it, I thought to myself, he would have never hesitated to share with me. He's told me about all these groups that he's seen that I've never heard of a day in my life.

我总是回应：'不错啊，为你高兴'，从不会因他的音乐品味评判他。这让我反思：如果我自己都不接纳真实的自我，不敢展示真实的自我，又怎能期待别人这样做呢？

And I'd say, yeah, okay, cool. Good for you. And I never judge him because of the music that he likes and listens to. So it was a moment of an moment for myself to think about like if I don't embrace who I am, if I don't love who I am, if I don't share who I am, how can I expect other people to do the same?

是的。凯西，关于少数群体身份如何影响真实性与自我表露，你还有什么要补充的吗？

Yes. Cathy, do you want to add anything about how being in the minority comes into play with authenticity and self disclosure.

是的。当我们开始这项研究时，其中一篇论文名为《在公司派对上拉近距离》。这篇论文的部分理念是，公司会举办各种活动、聚会、欢乐时光、社交以及圣诞派对等，期望所有员工参加，认为这能拉近人际关系，建立更好的联系。于是我们展开调查，询问人们：你会参加这些活动吗？和你一起的都是谁？

Yeah. So when we started this research, one of the papers that we wrote is called Getting Closer at the Company Party. And part of the idea behind the paper was that companies have these events and activities and happy hours and socializing and Christmas parties, etcetera, that they ask all employees to come to with the expectation that it'll somehow bring people closer together, that it will create some better relationships. And so we did this research and we asked people, well, do you go to these events? Who's there with you?

他们与你有多相似？派对结束后你感觉与他们有多亲近？确实能看到一些积极变化，尤其是当人们拥有共同身份时。而对于少数群体或与周围人格格不入的人来说，参与这些活动后并不会产生同样的亲近感提升。他们基本上告诉我们：我去这些活动只是因为不得不去。

How similar are they to you? And then how close do you feel to them after the party's over? And you do see some positive uptick, especially when people share the same identity. So when people are in the minority or they're very different from the other people around them, they don't get that same uptick of positive feelings of closeness with people after they've engaged in these things. And they often, they were basically telling us, well, I go to these events because I kind of have to.

他们并不真的认为这会给自己带来什么改变。研究发现，任何感觉自己被异己者包围的人都是如此，即使他们属于美国社会中的多数群体。我们还特别针对非裔美国人做了研究，询问他们在职场中与外貌不同的人交流的舒适度。反复证据表明，人们更倾向于与相似者相处，担心展示差异反而会制造隔阂而非亲密。他们忧虑这可能影响职场可信度与地位。我曾引用华尔街高管的真实案例：我的业绩完美无缺，

And they're not really feeling like it's going to lead to something different for them. And so it turned out that when we did that research, that that was true for anybody who felt like they were surrounded by people who weren't like them, even if they were part of what we might consider a majority group in United States. But then we also did some research with African Americans in particular to ask them kind of how comfortable would you feel sharing with or talking to people who look different from you in the workplace and we got evidence time and time again that people were more comfortable with people who look like themselves, that they were concerned that perhaps sharing something about themselves that was different would actually create more distance between them and the other as opposed to creating more closeness. And they were concerned that it might have a negative implications for their credibility and their status in the workplace. So it is a real concern and when I've written about this, I've actually used stories from executives on Wall Street who say, know, look my numbers were perfect.

我的数据比任何人都优秀，但仍未获得晋升。询问上司时得到的答复是：我们不了解你。业绩固然出色，但大家说不认识真实的你。这位当事人需要审慎决定与同事建立何种程度的职场联结。

My numbers were better than anybody else's but I still wasn't getting the promotion and when I talked to my boss about what's going on, they said we don't know you. Clearly your numbers are great, but people say they don't know who you are. And it was important for that particular person to make a decision about how much he wanted to actually connect with the other people there in the workplace.

你还有个故事：当你必须冒险向表面看来与你截然不同的同事坦白时——那次家庭突发状况迫使你中途离席会议。

You have another story. When you had to take a risk on what you were going to tell your colleagues, many of whom were on the surface not like you, There was a family emergency, you had to leave a meeting.

没错，这个故事对我而言是另一个转折点，也是我必须权衡是否要冒的风险。当时情况是这样：我生长于芝加哥，恰好在西北大学任教（校区位于埃文斯顿），而我的父母仍与庞大的家族住在芝加哥南区。我是六个孩子中最小的。

Yeah, this story is one that I think was another moment for me and definitely a risk that I had to decide if I wanted to take or not. So this was a situation. I'm from Chicago, born and raised, and I happened to be on the faculty at the time at Northwestern, is up in Evanston. And my parents were still living on the South Side Of Chicago with my very large extended family. I'm the sixth child of six.

工作时突然接到侄女电话，要求我立即赶往南区——原来我父母被捕了。我震惊慌乱，不得不匆忙离开。返回职场后同事们自然追问：发生什么了？一切都好吗？

And I was at work and I got a call from one of my nieces saying, you need to get down here to Southside right away because mom and dad had been arrested. And I was like, what? I'm like frazzled, I had to leave very quickly. And so of course when I came back to work, they were like, what happened? Is everything okay?

大家都平安吗？我面临抉择：是否要向同事坦白父母被捕的事——起因是我某个侄子（天知道他是否真做错了什么）被警察追进父母家的卫生间，事态由此升级。我最终选择坦白，因为我认为比起含糊其辞或说谎，诚实反而是最优解。我说：这是非常艰难的处境，但我想和大家分享实情。

Is everybody okay? And I had to decide if I was going to share with my colleagues at work that my parents had been arrested because one of my nephews had, you know, who knows if he had done anything wrong, but the police chased him into the bathroom of my parents' house. And things unfolded from there. And I decided to share it mostly because I thought the consequence of me either saying this is too difficult to share with you or lying about it or saying oh it was nothing like there was no good alternative in my opinion that would actually be better than just telling the truth. And so I said, this was a very difficult situation and I want to share with you guys what happened.

他们表现出极大的支持，持续关心事态进展。整个事件历时一年半才完全解决，包括出庭等程序。事实上这成为了增进感情的契机——尽管我已是西北大学教授、拥有博士学位，但作为非裔女性，我的生活仍有他们看不见的另一面。这次经历反而赢得了他们更多的尊重。

And they were super supportive. They asked again and again how things were going. It was a year and a half before it was all over with when it came down to going to court and all this stuff. And the reality is that like, I think it was really a bonding moment because it gave them an opportunity to see that although I had quote unquote made it, know, here I am a professor, PhD at Northwestern University, that as an African American woman, I was dealing with a life that they didn't see, you know, on the other side. And that I think that actually gave them more respect for me.

广告之后，我们将继续聆听2018年与已故凯西·菲利普斯的对话，听她分享职场中哪些话题适宜讨论，哪些应当避免。

After the break, more from our twenty eighteen conversation with the late Kathy Phillips, starting with her take on what's okay and what's not okay to talk about at work.

我经常被问到这个问题：在职场中哪些话题可以谈，哪些不该谈。我自己也在这条路上不断摸索。所以我通常会告诉人们，首先你得根据对方的接受程度来调整。你自己对分享某些事感到自在，并不意味着所有人都如此。在我职业生涯中，就有过这样的时刻——我想告诉你这件事，但我不希望它成为众人皆知的话题。

I get this question often about what's okay to talk about in the workplace, what's not okay to talk about in the workplace. And I've been on my own personal journey with this as well. And so I try to tell people, first of all, you kind of have to meet people where they are. Just because you're really comfortable sharing some things about yourself doesn't necessarily mean that everybody is. And there have been times in my career where I've said, I want to share this with you, but I don't really want it to be common knowledge for everybody.

比如我可能对你们两位说：我相信你们才说这个，但别告诉别人我父母被捕的事。但随着时间的推移我明白了一个道理：你必须对自己要透露的内容感到完全坦然。因为事实是，一旦你把某件事告诉别人，它就变成了对方的秘密。当然你可以请求对方保密，但现实是你无法控制任何人。这确实是个微妙的难题。

I feel like I trust the two of you to tell this, but don't tell everybody that my parents got arrested. So the reality, though, that I've learned over time is that you really do have to be comfortable yourself with whatever it is that you're disclosing. Because the fact of the matter is that once you share something with someone, it really belongs to them at that point. You know, like you can certainly ask them, you know, not to share it, but the reality is you don't control anybody. And so it's kind of a tricky thing.

你必须真正了解自己，对分享的内容感到自在，并明白不是所有人都和你在同一心理层面上。

You kind of have to really know yourself and be comfortable with whatever it is you're sharing and understand that not everybody will be at the same place you are.

界限在哪里？是否有研究表明存在某个临界点——当话题超出工作范畴或可能引发反弹时？您对此有什么见解吗？

Where is the line? Has research found that there is a line where something is just too much at work or there's backlash, whatever it is? Do you have any insight to that?

是的。我认为这非常因人而异，不同场合也可能不同。当然人们常说不要谈论政治和宗教，这两类话题基本属于禁忌。

Yeah. I mean, I think this is very idiosyncratic, and it could be different in different places. But of course, people say don't talk about politics, don't talk about religion, that those two things are kind of like off the table.

真是这样吗？

Is that true?

我个人经历证明未必如此。比如哥伦比亚商学院院长——我的上司——就公开承认自己是共和党人。他曾在布什政府任职，这个身份无法掩饰。所以政治话题确实会出现。

I personally have not experienced that to necessarily be true. I mean it turns out that the person who is the dean of the Columbia Business School, my boss, very clearly he's a Republican And that's not something that he hides. He worked in the Bush administration. And so therefore, can't hide that fact. And so politics do come up.

我曾和他聊过，他对谈论政治非常坦然，而我则相对谨慎。我会任由他畅谈政治，自己只是点头附和然后转移话题。所以关键是要了解所处环境的潜规则——哪些能被接受，哪些不能。

And I did talk to him about he actually feels very comfortable talking about politics. I feel less comfortable talking about politics. So I would allow him to talk about politics as much as he wanted. And I would just kind of like nod my head and say, Okay, what else we're talking about? So I think some of it is really trying to know that in the environment that you're in, could be different norms around what's acceptable and what's not.

当你可能越界时，你自己是能感觉到的。通常我会当场补救：'刚才分享的内容可能让你不适，如果冒犯了我很抱歉'。但说实话，信息一旦出口，就像泼出去的水收不回来了。

And you kind of know when you've crossed the line when you when you perhaps have shared too much and oftentimes I will say like in the moment if I shared something that maybe I shouldn't have I'll say oh I might have made you feel uncomfortable by sharing that like I apologize if I made you feel uncomfortable sharing that. But, you know, like, that's really all you can do is kind of apologize for it. And the reality is, again, like, now that the information is out there, you can't really take it back.

接下来阿曼达与凯西的对话转向了回答观众提问环节。

Here's where Amanda's conversation with Kathy shifts to questions from the audience.

好的。所以两侧各有两个麦克风。

Okay. So there are two microphones on either side.

首先感谢这次小组讨论，真的让我大开眼界。但作为一个即将进入职场的女性，如何在不过度分享的同时又不显得冷漠？因为我容易过度分享。你如何把握这种平衡，既能建立关系又不会越界？

First of thank you for the panel. It's been really it's just eye opening. But as a woman who's about to enter the workforce, how do you manage not coming off as cold, but then not oversharing? Because I'm someone who tends to overshare. So how do you strike that balance and still be able to form relationships without going too far?

我认为需要谨慎行事。我经常告诉人们一件事：首先，我的研究并不建议你向所有人袒露一切。让我明确这一点，研究绝非这个意思。

I think you tread lightly. I mean, tell people all the time this one thing. Like, first of all, my research does not suggest you share everything with everybody. Okay, let me be really clear about that. That is not what it's suggesting.

研究指出的是，有时我们脑中会认为某些信息的分享将造成严重损害，但事实上并非如此。这反而可能是与某人建立联系的契机——对方可能因此更愿意深度投资于你、指导你、支持你，因为他们感觉了解你并希望你成功。适度分享确实能带来积极影响。所以我建议你注意所处环境，努力理解具体情境。

It is suggesting that sometimes we have these thoughts in our head that somehow sharing this information with somebody is going to be so detrimental and hurtful, when in fact it actually is not. It actually is an opportunity to make a connection with somebody who might then invest in you more deeply, who might be more willing to mentor you and to sponsor you, who feels like they know you and they want to see you succeed. And so it actually can be some positive things that come out of sharing some things with people. So I would just say to you that pay attention to the environment that you're in. Try to understand the context.

观察同事们的分享尺度？这个环境的常态是什么？你需要理解这些，然后找出职场中可能建立深层关系的人（不必是所有人，哪怕只有一个）。这正是导师制、赞助制等机制的意义所在。

What are people sharing with you? What's normative in this environment? So you want to try to understand that a little bit. And then you want to identify, not everybody, a few people, one person even in that workplace that you feel like you might be able to build a deeper relationship with. That's what mentorship and sponsorship, etcetera, is all about.

如果别人不了解你，他们就无法帮助你。因此我认为在这些事上保持策略性很重要。我常举例说：如果整个组织中没有一个与你不同、可能掌权、属于主流群体的人让你感觉可以稍多自我表露，那这个组织可能不适合你。因为你的成长发展本就部分依赖于他人的投资，你需要找到那些愿意投资你的人。

People can't help you if they don't know who you are. And so again, I think it's really important to be somewhat strategic about these things. But I tell people all the time, for instance, if there's not one person in this workplace who's different from you, who may in fact have some power, who may in fact be part of the majority group, if there's not one person in the entire organization that you don't feel like you can share a little bit more about yourself with, then that's probably not the right organization for you. Because reality is that your ability to thrive and to grow and to develop and to learn is partially dependent on somebody investing in you. And you've got to find those people.

所以你需要适度尝试，承担一定风险，选择性地向某些人（而非所有人）敞开心扉。但务必留意所处环境及其行为规范。

So you have to kind of try it out a little bit and take a little bit of risk and put yourself out there with somebody, not everybody, but to try to make connections with some people. But pay attention to the environment that you're in and what's normative in that environment.

谢谢你的提问。下一位。

Thank you for your question. Yes.

大家好，各位已从不同角度谈及此事，但我想具体提问：作为女性，我们对在职场上透露心理健康问题（甚至健康问题或怀孕）的顾虑，往往源于担心这会影响任务分配或晋升机会。前几天我刚谈及心理健康问题，作为习惯性过度分享者，我第一反应是'这没什么'，但转念想到在某些职场环境中这确实重要。我想了解各位听到女性对此的反馈，以及管理者如何接收和处理这类信息？

Hi, so you all have touched on this in some ways, but I just wanted to ask it in a really specific way because I think some of the hesitation around disclosing mental health issues at work or even health issues or even I was talking with a colleague say pregnancy is because we're worried as women about the ramifications that that will have on our ability to get assignments or our ability to get promoted. I was just talking the other day at work about some mental health issues, and my immediate inclination as an overshare was like, oh, yeah, this doesn't matter. And then I stepped back and thought, okay. But in some workplaces, this will really matter. And I wonder what you all hear from women about that and and what you hear from managers about that, about how they receive that information and then what they do with it after.

人们确实存在我们始终需要应对的偏见，必须谨慎管理。我自身也正在处理相关经历——我曾长期犹豫是否要分享某个重要个人信息，后来意识到若继续隐瞒这个重大秘密，我无法在职场上真正成长，每天都会感到自己在说谎。我的一位同事正好研究'保守秘密'课题，发现这会带来生理、心理和认知上的负担。因此我最终选择了分享。

It's definitely true that people have biases that we're always trying to manage and that we have to be careful about managing them, how we manage them. I have my own personal experiences around this that I'm still kind of managing through. And for me, I thought about not sharing this really important piece of information about myself for a while and then I realized I just could not thrive in my workplace and go to work every day and engage with people without feeling like I was somehow lying or holding a secret that was a pretty big secret. And it turns out one of my colleagues does research on keeping secrets and it's physically burdensome, it's mentally burdensome, it's cognitively burdensome. And so for me, I kind of had to share this information.

我还发现，当你与职场中的某人建立一种可以承担这种风险的关系时，你会多次感到惊讶。你会惊讶于人们在某些方面与你有相似之处，而这些可能是他们不愿向他人承认或分享的，这实际上能让你与那个人更加亲近。所以部分原因在于了解自己，明白保守秘密真的很困难，它是一种负担，可能会阻碍你的成功。

I also find that you'll be surprised again many times when you have a relationship with somebody in the workplace that you can kind of take that risk with. You'll be surprised at how people have similarities with you on some of these dimensions that they might not have been willing to admit or share with someone else, and it can actually again bring you much closer with that person. So some of it is knowing yourself and knowing that like holding secrets is really hard, and it's quite burdensome and can take away from your success.

请继续。我想再谈谈情绪这个话题。我通常倾向于不在当下分享自己是否因某事感到不安、愤怒或悲伤，而是保持一种普遍的情绪。但我现在注意到，人们越来越自在地表达这些情绪了。

Go ahead. I wanted to talk a little bit more about, I guess, emotion. I'm someone who usually tends to not share if I am upset at something in the moment, or if I'm angry, or if I'm sad. I tend to just kind of show the same emotion across the board. And I'm noticing now more that people feel more comfortable expressing those emotions.

我不认为这有什么错，但我正在努力适应成为这种更倾向于即时表达感受、想法和方式的职场群体的一部分。所以想听听你们对此的看法。

I don't think that's wrong, but I'm just struggling with kind of being, I guess, part of that workforce, right, that now tends to express themselves a little bit more and say what they feel when they feel and how they feel it. So just if you guys had any thoughts on that.

是的。我在与他人互动时自我披露程度的一个目标，就是要掌控自己的故事。因为我不希望别人随意揣测我的感受、想法、经历或行为，不想让他们填补空白。所以这需要自我认知，了解自己。

Yeah. Part of my goal with any interaction that I'm having with someone and how much I'm self disclosing, etcetera, is to control my own story. Because I don't want people making up things about how I feel or what I think or where I've been or what I've done or whatever. I don't want people making up and filling in the blanks. And so some of it is self awareness, kind of knowing yourself.

如果你知道自己一旦开始表达情绪就会失控，那么确实应该谨慎行事，毕竟还要保持专业性。但对我来说，关键在于我希望别人以我看待自己的方式来看待我。而唯一的方法就是向他们真实表达我的自我认知和感受体验。坦白说，这其实有点自私，关乎控制和权力。

If you know that you're a person that if you start expressing your emotions, you're going to fly off the handle, then yeah, you probably should be careful about doing that because you also are trying to maintain professionalism as well. But I think for me, really is about I want people to see me the way I see myself. And the only way that people can see me the way I see myself is if I actually express to them how I see myself and the experiences that I'm having in the way that I feel. And so it for me actually it's kind of selfish. It's about control and power quite frankly.

我宁愿对自己的故事和处世方式拥有掌控权，因为这种掌控确实帮助了我。愿意分享自己的故事对我来说是非常有益的。

I would actually prefer to have power and control over my own story and over my own my own ways of walking through the world. I would like to have some control over that because I think it actually helps me. It has really been a helpful thing for me to be willing to share my own story.

凯西对她分享动机的清晰解释——关于按照自己的方式被看见——至今仍极具现实意义，尤其是在当下当披露并非总是自愿选择，或风险更难评估的时候。

Kathy's clarity on why she shared what she shared, that it was about being seen on her own terms, still feels so relevant, especially now when disclosure isn't always a choice or when the risks feel harder to gauge.

为了探讨自我披露背景的演变，我采访了凯西的两位长期研究合作伙伴：沃顿商学院教授南希·罗斯巴德和俄亥俄州立大学费舍尔商学院教授特蕾西·杜马斯。我们先听特蕾西的研究，稍后再引入南希的观点。

To explore how the context around self disclosures evolved, I spoke with two of Kathy's longtime research collaborators, Nancy Rothbard, a professor at Wharton, and Tracy Dumas, a professor at Ohio State's Fisher College of Business. We'll hear about Tracy's research first, and then I'll bring in Nancy a little later.

是的。疫情过后，我认为至少在我看来，人们重新认识到人际关系及职场中人际连接的价值，因为我们许多人未曾意识到自己有多怀念它，以及它曾是职场多么重要的一部分。但坦率说，另一个显著不同是我们正处于前所未有的两极分化阶段。

Yeah. So coming back from the pandemic, I do think to me, at least, it seems as if people have a new appreciation for human connection and human connection in the workplace because for many of us, we didn't realize how much we missed it and how much it was a part of the workplace. So I think that's part of it. But, frankly, I think what's also very different is that we're on a whole another level of polarization.

而且

And

因此我认为存在双重张力：一方面，我们更习惯于稍微多分享一些。疫情期间，个人与职业之间的界限更加模糊。但与此同时，人们非常害怕说错话。由于两极分化和局势的动荡，人们在分享感受时也显得小心翼翼。比如，我们曾以为2018年的对立已经够严重了。

so I think there are these dual tensions of, on the one hand, we're more accustomed to sharing a little bit more. During the pandemic, the boundary between personal and professional was blurred more. But simultaneously, people are very fearful of saying the wrong thing. I think people are also on edge about sharing how they feel because of polarization and how volatile things are. Like, we thought we were polarized in 2018.

现在完全是另一个层次了。

It's a whole another level.

是的。那么，特蕾西，如果你感觉到自己的观点和信仰让你在同事中属于少数派，你该如何看待这种情况？

Yeah. So, Tracy, what if you sense that your views, your beliefs put you in a minority among your colleagues? How should you think about that?

没错。根据我们最新研究的结果，首先我们知道，当人们意识到或感知到自己在职场价值观方面属于少数派时，他们往往会退缩。因为处于少数派让我们感到不适——我们会觉得自己地位较低，觉得不会受到尊重。所以第一点：少数派群体参与度往往更低。

Right. If I think about the findings from our latest study, first of all, what we know is that when people recognize or perceive that they are in the minority and what whatever their values are in the workplace, they tend to withdraw. Right, because we are uncomfortable being in the minority. We feel like we are low status, if we are in the minority, and we feel as if we're we're not going to be respected if we're in the minority. So one, we know that when people are in the minority, they are less likely to engage.

但我们的实验发现，当人们透露一些个人信息时——比如在实验中，我们只是让参与者向组员分享自己最喜欢和最不喜欢的电影及原因——这种'我在组内地位较低'的感觉就会减弱，被尊重感会提升，参与度也随之增加。嗯。研究结论表明：即使是基础层面的自我分享，也能让你在他人眼中更具个性化。

But what we found is that when people disclosed something about themselves like, in in our experimental manipulation, we literally just had the participants to share with your group members what your favorite and least favorite movies are and why. And that mitigated these feelings of I'm lower status in this group. That mitigated these feelings of being less respected in this group, and those people were more likely to engage. Mhmm. Our takeaway from our findings is that just a basic level of sharing something about who you are, what it can do is it can personalize you.

这能帮助别人看到你不只是那个与我们持不同立场的人。这就是研究给我们的启示：或许可以了解下那个在疫苗问题上与你有分歧的同事，也适当分享你的成长背景。微小的交流就能成为弥合差异的起点。

It can help people to see you as something other than just what makes us different. So that is what we find and suggest from the research. Maybe learn a little bit about that person who you know you feel differently about vaccines. Maybe, you know, share a little bit about who you are and where you grew up to help potentially bridge those differences. And it can start with something really small.

让我们把这些实验结论应用到实际办公场景中。

So let's take that guidance out of the the world of experiments and and apply it to the office or the workplace.

好的。

Yes.

假设你加入Zoom会议时，已有四个人在讨论疫苗这个极具争议性的话题...

Let's just say you are in a group and you join the Zoom call, and the four people already on the Zoom call are talking about vaccines, and that's a point of great polarization.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而他们所说的与你所坚信的完全背道而驰。你会怎么做？你会说什么？

And what they're saying runs absolutely counter to what you believe. What do you do? What do you say?

是的。那么首先我会问，你和这些人是什么关系？这将决定我如何回应。

Yes. So back up, I would first say, what is your relationship with these people? That that would shape how I would respond.

他们是你可能会共进午餐的同事。姑且这么说吧。

They are colleagues you might have lunch with. Let's put it that way.

好的。明白了。所以他们是可能和我一起吃午餐的同事。那么如果我觉得坐在那里一言不发会很奇怪，对吧？

Okay. Okay. So okay. So they're colleagues that I might have lunch with. Then if I felt it would be weird for me to sit there and say nothing, Right?

因为部分原因在于，你知道，什么适合这个场合。有时候表达不当会适得其反，因为它根本不适合那个场合，或者透露的细节程度或亲密度不合适。假设你判断我在这里沉默不语不合适，我会先说，我的看法有些不同。我想我会诚实地表达这一点。

Because part of it is, you know, what is appropriate for the situation. And sometimes disclosures go over poorly because it's just really not appropriate for the situation or it's a level of of detail or a level of intimacy that's not appropriate. So let's say you discern that it's not gonna be appropriate for me to sit here silently. I would lead with, I do see things a little bit differently. I think I would be honest about that.

但我会尽量避免深入探讨所有具体细节。我们普遍知道人们接收信息的方式，他们往往更容易接受个人经历，而不是听我讲所有的医学研究和所有研究结果。对吧？如果

But I would try not to delve too deeply into all of the specifics. And one thing that we know just in general about the way people receive information, people tend to receive personal experiences a little bit better than they receive let me tell you about all the medical research, and let me tell you about all the studies. Right? If

没人愿意被说教。确实如此。

someone No one wants is to be lectured at. Exactly.

是的。所以我可能会分享，也许我有一个祖母在疫苗问世前得过小儿麻痹症

Yeah. And so what I might share, maybe I have a grandmother who had polio

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道，所以我了解那种影响。那是我的个人经历，它塑造了我的感受。我想我会先讲这个。这样往往不那么具有威胁性，也不太可能引发激烈争执，让对方感到不受尊重或想和你争论。

You know, before vaccines. And so I I know the impact of that. And, you know, and that's my personal experience, and that shapes how I feel. I think I would lead with that. I think it's it tends to be less threatening, and it's less likely to get into a big fight where the other side feels disrespected, or they feel that they wanna argue with you.

你知道，这是我的个人经历，我能理解你的经历可能不同，也许正是这些经历塑造了你现在的感受。对吧？所以，既要给予一些宽容，同时也要坚持自己的观点。我认为研究也会支持这种看法。

You know, this is my personal experience, and I can understand that, you know, your experiences might be different and maybe your experience to shape why you feel the way you do. Right? So, just giving some some grace, but still holding your ground in terms of your perspective. That that's what I think research would suggest.

还有一点，我是说，根据我的经验，当我参与讨论时，大家都默认我们对这个极具争议的话题意见一致，但实际上我并不认同。是的，我意识到我的任务并不总是要说服——

And one thing, I I mean, just from my experience where I have entered into the conversation where it was all assumed that we all agree on this very controversial thing, and and I actually don't. Yeah. I have learned that my job isn't always to win over

是的。

Yes.

那些与我意见相左的人，因为有些事情我就是做不到，也无法成功。而且，这也不是本次会议的重点。对吧？对。

People who disagree with me because there are some things that I'm just not going to do. I'm not gonna be able to succeed at that. And, also, that's not what this meeting's about. Right? Right.

对，完全正确。所以，南希，我想问你，有些人对于模糊职业和个人界限感到不适，而社交媒体正是这种矛盾最突出的地方。我本人倒不属于这类人，但我不想成为那种强迫员工和我交朋友的老板。

Right. Exactly. Exactly. So, Nancy, I wanna ask you about you know, there are some people who aren't comfortable with blurring the professional and personal boundaries, and that's where social media really is where the rubber hits the road. So I'm not exactly one of those people, but I don't wanna be that boss who, you know, sort of coerces people into being my friends.

没错。我正好有篇相关论文，题目叫《天啊，老板刚加了我好友》。我们在研究中发现，人们对跨越层级界限有着强烈情绪。最令他们不适的，毫无疑问是上司主动越界——但下属在被视为更私密的网络空间里主动联系他们时，他们同样感到不适。

Yeah. So I I have a paper that you're referring to, which is called OMG, my boss just friended me. And what we really look at in that paper is that there are some really strong feelings people have Right. About crossing hierarchical boundaries. And people are the most uncomfortable with bosses.

我们区分了领英这类更专业的平台和其他更混杂私人属性的平台。重要的是保持清醒，避免误加下属为好友。研究发现，适度自我披露的领导者会让人更放松——如果你是位温暖且愿意分享的老板，员工会更愿意与你建立联系。

No question. A boss kind of crossing that boundary. But they're equally uncomfortable with subordinates crossing that boundary and reaching out to them in an online space that is considered more personal and we make a distinction between LinkedIn which is more professional and is less mixing of the personal and the professional. And so being aware so that you don't put your foot in it and make the mistake of friending subordinate is really important. What we find is that being somebody who discloses information about yourself makes people more comfortable.

数据显示，女性上司若展现些许人性化特质，比如适度自我披露，比起那些始终保持高度专业姿态、完全隔绝私人情感的表现，员工会更愿意与之互动。当女性领导者流露真实人性时，往往能获得更积极的回应。

So if you are a warm and disclosive boss, people feel less uncomfortable connecting with you. People actually are more willing to connect with female bosses who are who are disclosive, who are letting a little bit of their humanity show through versus those who are really trying to keep a very, very professional demeanor and kind of walling off that personal experience. And and people respond much better to the women who show a little bit of humanity, a little bit of that personal disclosure.

具体解释下这个现象？这意味着什么？

Talk us through that. What what does that mean?

这源于社会对女性温暖亲和的特质期待。当女性不符合这种期待时，就会被视为冷漠——这完全违背了对女性的常规期待。我们研究中就有这样的案例：有位不进行自我披露的女上司，员工评价她'非常冷漠公事化，从不透露私人信息，行为举止完全职业化'。

I mean, the reason for this is there's also very strong expectations of women to be warm and disclosive. And when we are not warm and disclosive, we're seen as cold, which is a very counter normative expectation for women. And you know, we had quotes in our study about this. We had one female boss who didn't disclose and somebody wrote about her saying, she's very cold and businesslike. She doesn't disclose personal information nor engage in any behavior less than entirely professional.

嗯。

Mhmm.

她有些冷淡疏离，因此不太受信任。她人不错但严厉。她可以很有趣，但也刻薄。

She is somewhat aloof and cold and is not thus not well trusted. She is nice but stern. She can be a lot of fun, but she is also bitchy.

是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

最好别惹她生气对吧？就像人们谈论那些不透露私事的女上司一样。而那些不透露私事的男上司，对比真的非常鲜明。

Best not to get on her bad side. Right? Like, that's how they talk about women who don't disclose, women bosses who don't disclose. Right? Like and the men who you know, the male bosses who don't disclose, the the contrast is really it's really profound.

对吧？一个不透露私事的男上司，他非常专业，但倾向于独处。他说话通常只涉及工作，除非别人直接提问。他一般愿意和别人聊聊孩子，但我完全不知道他私下做什么。然后他们继续描述他。

Right? So a male boss who doesn't disclose, he's very professional, but he tends to keep to himself. When he talks, it's usually only about work unless someone else asks a direct question. He's generally willing to talk about his kids with someone else, but he I have no idea what he does. And then he they go on to describe him.

他非常专业。虽然对员工表示关心，但通常不会过分打探。他让我专心工作，我也如此。这就是他们对同样不透露私事的男上司的描述，对吧？

He's very professional. And though he expresses an interest in employees, he generally doesn't get nosy. He leaves me be to do my job, and I do the same. Like, that's the way they describe the male boss who is also not disclosive. Right?

所以语气真的完全不同。

So it's a really different tone.

谁能想到'像生意人'会变成贬义词呢？

Well, who would ever have imagined that business like would be a slur?

对啊。对吧？但那个人得出的结论是她不受信任。而这个男人，他不爱打听，我们相处得很好。

Right. Right? Right. But, you know, the the conclusion that that person comes to is that she's not well trusted. Whereas this guy, he's not nosy, and, you know, we get along just fine.

所以对男女的期待真的截然不同

So it's a really different expectation of women and men

对。

Right.

在这些领导角色中。

In these leadership roles.

那么，南希，我需要你的建议。作为组织中的资深人士，当收到来自资历较浅者的连接或关注请求时，我应当考虑哪些因素？我脑海中应该思考些什么？

So, Nancy, I need your advice. What should I, as a senior person in my organization, be thinking about when I get a request to connect or to follow from someone who is junior to me? What what should be going through my mind?

我认为如果有资历较浅的人主动联系你寻求建立关系，你应该接受。

So I think that if somebody junior to you is reaching out to connect with you, you should accept.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为他们主动联系是承担了风险的，他们希望与你建立某种联系。这对他们来说是个重要的渠道。嗯。所以你应该接受。当然你需要管理好自己的——你知道的——发布内容，确保自己对他们能看到的内容感到舒适，但一定要接受。

Because they are taking a risk in reaching out, and they are wanting some form of connection with you. And this is a meaningful channel for them. Mhmm. So so you should accept. And you need to manage your you know, what you're disclosing so that you're comfortable with them seeing that, but but definitely accept.

这真让人如释重负，因为我向来都会接受。而我的同事们因此得到的回报，就是有机会看到我和狗狗们的日常。

Well, that's a huge relief because I always have accepted. And what my colleagues get in return for that is a chance to look at me with my dogs.

那是最棒的。我没有养狗，但我超爱看别人发狗狗动态。

Which is the best. I don't have dogs. I love dog postings.

特蕾西，你采用什么策略？你如何在网络上设定必要的界限？

Well, Tracy, what what strategies do you use? How do you set the boundaries you need to set online?

好吧，我必须坦白——南希正在笑对吧？因为在我们三人组（我、凯西和南希）里，我毫无疑问是那个最会划清界限的人。对吧？

Okay. So I I must confess, and and Nancy's laughing. Right? Because in the trio, the trio of me, Kathy, and Nancy, right, I am hands down the segmenter. Right?

所以我是那个界限分明的人。早期我有两个账号，我会在职业账号上积极添加同事，让他们都成为我职业账号上的好友。但我要说的是，这些年来我逐渐放松了界限。而且我确实看到了放松带来的好处——这些好处在几年前你根本不可能说服我相信。

So I am I am the one with the rigid boundaries. Early on, I had two accounts. And so I would aggressively friend colleagues on my professional account so that they were all my friends on my professional account. But I I will say that I've loosened up over the years. And I and I have seen benefits to loosen loosening up over the years, benefits that you probably would not have been able to convince me of several years ago.

不过话说回来，我现在的Instagram账号也非常人畜无害，可能这就是刻意为之吧。这就是真实的我。

But that that said, my Instagram account right now, it's also very innocuous, and perhaps that's just by design. That's who I am.

等等，我想打断一下。具体是什么好处？你说得神神秘秘的。

So Okay. I wanna stop you. What were the benefits? You're being mysterious.

好的。

Okay.

我发现与人互动变得更加愉快轻松了。就拿去年来说，我参加了招聘委员会，这意味着我与系主任的接触比以往任何时候都多。而我们系主任可是个大人物——我读研时就看过他的论文。换作以前的Tracy，我绝不会向他透露任何个人事情。

You know, I just found that interactions with people were much more pleasant and much more relaxed. And even this past year, I was on a recruiting committee, which meant that I interacted more with my department chair than ever before. And my department chair is is a big name person who, you know, I remember reading his papers in graduate school. Right? And so the old Tracy he's someone that I would have never disclosed anything about myself with.

嗯。但作为招聘委员会成员，我需要和他一起参加很多与求职者的晚餐。久而久之，我会透露些关于成长经历、兴趣爱好之类的小事。我觉得这反而让我们建立了更好的联系。

Mhmm. But being a member of the recruiting committee meant that I went to many dinners with job candidates with him, right, as the department chair. And just over time, really just disclosing little things about how I grew up and what my hobbies are and all those kinds of things. And I think it made for just a better connection with him.

没错。这正是Kathy提到的，也是你们研究中反复验证的——

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's what Kathy was talking about. It's what your studies have shown over and over that

千真万确。

Absolutely.

就是那一点点人性的流露让一切变得更容易

There's just a little shot of humanity that makes it easier

建立联系。对吧？说得太准确了。

to connect. Right? Exactly. That's a great way to put it.

是的。特蕾西，我为你感到骄傲。谢谢

Yeah. Tracy, I'm so proud of you. Thank

你。我们多次提到凯西，她的主要目标之一是帮助我们在差异中建立真实的关系。这是她大量工作的核心。既然你们两位都继续从事这项工作，并有幸与凯西共事，你们各自认为现在最想与凯西分享的发现是什么？特蕾西，从你开始。

you. So we've referred a lot to Kathy, and one of Kathy's main goals was to help us build real relationships across differences. That that was the focus of a lot of her work. So as you two have continued with your work, and you've both had the privilege of working with Kathy, what would you each identify as the finding you'd most love to share with Kathy right now? I'll start with you, Tracy.

哪一个发现会让她眼睛一亮？

Which one would just make her eyes light up?

好的。我最希望她看到的发现其实并非来自我的研究。-迈克尔：明白。它来自南希另一位杰出的同事。瑞秋·阿内特发表了一篇关于表达或分享与种族身份相关信息的论文。

Okay. So the finding that I would most want her to see is actually not from my own research, actually. -MICHAEL: Okay. It's from another one of Nancy's amazing colleagues. It's Rachel Arnett has a paper that came out about expressing information or sharing information related to your racial identity.

这种张力正是凯西在她研究中指出的——如果你来自被污名化的群体、低地位群体或少数群体，会极度担忧任何凸显你种族类别的信息分享。而瑞秋的研究揭示了浅层信息分享（仅突出种族类别）与她所称的丰富文化表达之间的差异。比如凯西常举的例子：她担心告诉同事周末计划。某个生日周末，她打算去看一位黑人福音艺术家，而询问她生日安排的同事可能对此一无所知。

And there is this tension, right, that Kathy identified in her research that if you are from a stigmatized category, a low status category, or simply in the minority, there is a great deal of concern about sharing any information that highlights your racial category. And what Rachel's work shows is a difference between just a surface level sharing of information that highlights your racial category versus what she calls rich cultural expression. So for example, actually, one of the examples that Kathy tossed around a lot was being concerned about sharing with her colleagues what she was doing on the weekend. One weekend of her birthday, she was going to see this Black gospel artist that she expected her colleague who asked her what she did for her birthday didn't know about. Right?

浅层文化表达可能只是说'我去看了这个人的演出'。-阿什莉：但瑞秋的研究表明，如果分享相同信息时，进一步解释其文化意义或价值（比如'听这位福音歌手让我想起家族传统——周日教堂活动后与亲戚共进晚餐并聆听这类音乐，这是我如此喜爱他的原因'），通过更多阐释其文化认同意义，反而能减轻负面影响。

And so a surface cultural expression would have just been sharing, I went to see this guy. -ASHLEY: But what Rachel's work would say is, if you share that same information, but then actually offer an explanation to that person about why it's culturally significant to you or why this is someone you value. So maybe listening to this gospel artist, you know, it really reminds me of traditions that are strong in my family of having dinner with extended family members after church and listening to this type of gospel music. And so this is one of the reasons I love him so much. And so what Rachel's work shows is that, actually, by sharing more information about why he's significant, why it's part of my cultural identity, can minimize, then, some of the negative effects.

我特别希望凯西看到这项研究，尤其联想到我们公司聚会论文的发现——更多社交对少数族裔并无助益。我们论文的结论之一是：少数族裔参与社交可能仅流于表面，因为他们更多是出于义务感而非真心想亲近他人。

So I would really want Kathy to see that study, especially if I think about our company party paper, right, the findings that, you know, socializing more actually isn't helpful for those who are in the minority, in the racial minority. And maybe that's because and one of our findings from that paper, of course, was that probably when people were socializing, they were probably keeping it very superficial because if you were a racial minority, you were more likely to say that you attend these events just because you feel that you have to.

-阿什莉：

-ASHLEY:

瑞秋的研究则指出：如果在聚会中披露种族相关信息时，提供丰富的文化背景，反而能建立更亲密的关系，获得预期收益。我相信凯西会为这个发现欣喜不已。

Not because you're actually really trying to get close to people. And to me, that would suggest that probably their interactions were very superficial. And what Rachel's research would suggest is that actually if you go to those parties or disclose information that does highlight your racial category, but then you also offer additional context and just rich information, then that actually can lead to the closer relationships and to some of the benefits that you would hope to have. And I think Kathy would be very excited about that finding.

我同意特蕾西的观点，瑞秋的论文确实精彩地延伸了我们之前的工作。

I agree with Tracey that, you know, Rachel's paper really does beautifully build on the work that we did.

是的，听起来非常有见地且实用的建议。南希，你呢？如果今天有机会，你会对凯西分享些什么？

Yeah. That sounds that sounds really insightful and very useful guidance. Nancy, what about you? What would you share with Kathy today if you could?

如果要我选一篇自己最近为之兴奋、也知道她会为我感到兴奋的论文，那是我与博士生蒂姆·昆德罗合著的，关于职场中权力是否能保护那些对某事持道德异议的女性。不得不说，在我职业生涯的很多时刻，凯西和特蕾西的也是，我们一直在记录人们面临的各种艰难处境。而我们发现了一项对所有人都有效的干预措施——无论女性还是低权力的男性女性。

If I had to think about one of my own papers that I've just been excited about and I know she would be really excited about for me is a recent paper I did with a doctoral student, Tim Kundrow, on does power protect women who morally object to something in the workplace? And I have to say that a lot of my career, a lot of Kathy's career, a lot of Tracy's career, we've been documenting all of these really difficult things that people face. And so we had an intervention where which actually works for everybody. It works for women. It works for low power men and women.

它对高权力女性同样有效，并将她们与男性上司置于平等地位。关键在于：当你声明提出道德异议是为了组织利益时，人们真的会倾听并给予尊重，他们会认为'这或许是个重要理由'。但我们常常忘记这么做，只会简单说'这是错的'。

It works for high power women. And it equalizes them to male bosses, which is that if you say that you are raising the moral objection because it's for the good of the organization, actually people listen to you and they give you the respect and they think, Oh, okay. Yes, maybe that is an important reason. But we forget to do that a lot. We just say this is wrong.

我们不会说明'这是错的因为...'。所以发现这个简单有效的方法时，我无比自豪。我知道她若在世，一定会为我们终于找到可行方案而欣喜若狂。

We don't say this is wrong because. Mhmm. And so finding something really simple that really worked, I was so proud of that. And I was just I know she would have been over the moon that we finally have something that worked.

我要把'为了组织利益'这句话记下来。非常感谢二位的分享，我受益匪浅，也很感激你们今天抽空参与。谢谢艾米。

Well, I'm writing that down for the good of the organization. Yeah. Thank you both so much for this. I've learned a lot, and I really appreciate your time today. Thanks, Amy.

谢谢。非常感谢。

Thank you. Thank you.

伊姆维，你从与特蕾西和南希的对话中获得了什么启示？

Imvi, what did you what did you take away from that conversation you had with Tracy and Nancy?

最让我印象深刻的是，'公事公办'对女性而言是种诅咒，而对男性却成了美德。

You know, the the thing that really stuck in my head was how being businesslike was a curse for women, and somehow with guys being businesslike was a virtue. Right.

没错。或者说男性这么做完全被允许。

Right. That Or just completely permissible.

是啊，这让我更清楚地意识到规则确实不同——尽管我们早该知道。

And so yeah. Really, what what that highlighted for me was that, you know, the rules really are different, as if we didn't know.

是的。但她解读那些研究评论的方式，如果你曾有一刻以为作为女性，只需出现在工作中，不分享任何生活细节或情感，那真的突显了风险。那种不言而喻的风险。因为没人会直接告诉你，我们不提拔你是因为你没谈论孩子，或者因为我们不知道你的宗教信仰。

Yeah. But the way she read those comments from the research, if you for a moment thought you could just show up at work, not share anything about your life, not share anything about your emotions, as a woman, it really highlights the risk. The unspoken risk. Because no one's gonna say to you, you know, we're not promoting you because you didn't talk about your children. Or we're not promoting you because you didn't tell us what what your religion is.

但这让我们意识到，当我们试图完全封闭自我时，内心其实在经历怎样的评判。

But that gave us a sense of the internal dialogue of the way we're being judged when we try to keep completely buttoned up.

没错。我常想起那些公事公办的人，尤其是女性，那一定非常耗神。把所有情绪都压抑在心里。

Yeah. And the thing I always that I remember thinking about people who are businesslike, or women in particular, that must be so exhausting. Keeping it all inside.

确实如此。想到2021年，我们俩其实差不多同时经历了家人离世。你母亲去世了。嗯。

Yeah. And it is. I think about 2021, we actually both had deaths in the family around the same time. Your mom passed away. Mhmm.

我的朋友丹特也去世了。

My friend Dante passed away.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我记得当时有点羡慕你，因为你和逝者的关系非常明确。丹特是家人般的朋友，曾经是家人，但对不理解这种自主选择亲情的人很难解释。他是我生命的重要部分，也是我女儿生命的重要部分，但我们没有血缘关系。嗯。当他去世时，我不得不做个重大决定：是直接说家人去世就此打住？

I remember being slightly jealous of you because it was very clear what your relationship was to the person who had passed away. Dante is a friend who is family, was family, but very hard to explain to someone who doesn't understand that sort of family by choice. He was major part of my life, major part of my daughter's life, but there's no blood relation Mhmm. Between us. And when he passed away, there was a big decision I had to make about, do I just call it a death in the family and leave it at that?

还是解释他是谁？说明我们的关系？我记得请了整周假，只说家里有人去世不上班。回来后，我刻意花时间向最密切合作的团队解释他是谁，以及我们的羁绊。

Do I explain who he was? Do I explain the connection? And I remember when I took a full week off of work and just said I had a death in the family. I'm not gonna be at work. And when I came back, I really made the conscious decision to take the time to explain to the team I worked most closely with who he was and what my connection was with him.

嗯。后来收到很多信息说'我也有这样的人'

Mhmm. And I got so many messages from people who are like, I have someone like that

在我的

in my

家人也是。我完全理解。我非常抱歉。我的意思是，我现在说起这个都起鸡皮疙瘩，因为那是那种感觉对自己来说正确的事情的时刻。但显然我的那次坦白也影响了团队里的人。

family too. I fully understand. I'm so sorry. And it was I mean, I'm getting chills talking about it now because it was one of those moments where it felt like the right thing to do for myself. But then I clearly had impacted people on the team as well with that disclosure.

我也认为其中的一个教训是，我想问，你为什么觉得人们会严厉地评判你？

And I also think that one of the lessons of that is that I guess I wanna ask, why would you think people would judge you harshly?

我不确定是不是他们认为会被评判。我想起凯西的话。她并不一定认为同事会因为看到她的表演而评判她。只是他不会理解。是的。

I don't know if it was that they thought they would judge. And I think about Kathy's words. It's not that she thought necessarily that her colleague would judge her for who she had seen perform. It was just that he wouldn't get it. Yeah.

我想就是这样。我担心我说但丁对我有多重要，而人们就是不会理解。我担心他们会说，你因为某个家伙请了一整周的假？或者，你看起来真的很沮丧。为什么？其实不是评判的问题。

And I think that's what it was. I was worried I would say how important Dante was to me and people just wouldn't get it. And I worried that they would be like, You took a whole week off because some guy Or you know, like you seem really upset. Why? It wasn't so much of the judgment.

只是那种缺乏理解。你的问题也很好，因为它也突显出这种想法是多么短视，甚至不是短视，而是错误的，认为人们不会理解。他们当然会理解。

It was just the sort of lack of understanding. I think it's also your question is a good one because it also highlights how shortsighted it was, or not even shortsighted, but erroneous to think that people wouldn't get it. Of course they do.

但规则一直在变化。是的。正如凯西帮助我们理解的那样。还有特蕾西和南希。是的。分享是建立和培养信任的一部分。没错。

But the rules have been changing Yeah. As Kathy helped us understand. And also Tracy and Nancy. Yeah. It's part of establishing and building trust is sharing Exactly.

关于你自己。没错。我再次认为，新冠疫情向我们展示了那个时期发生了太多事情，非常疲惫，也很可怕。而那些人与人之间的联系帮助我们度过了难关。是的。

About yourself. Exactly. And I and again, I think COVID showed us that there was so much going on in that period, and it was so exhausting, and it was scary. And those human connections got us through. Yeah.

谁想回到以前的时代？我们还能做到吗？

Who wants to go back to the time before? Can we even do that?

是的。你在与特蕾西和南希的对话中说了一句我很喜欢的话。就像，那只是一剂人性的良药。嗯。这不仅仅是关于管理我们的声誉。

Yeah. Well, you said that phrase in in your conversation with Tracy and and Nancy that I loved. Like, it's just a shot of humanity. Mhmm. And it's not just about managing our reputations.

我们可以把凯西、南希和特蕾西的所有研究拿来，说这是关于管理我们的形象和品牌，让它非常理性。是的。没错。

Like, we could take this all of this research from Kathy, Nancy, and and Tracy, and say, this is about managing our appearance and brand and make it very Retrational. Yeah. Exactly.

而且要把它

And make it

变得非常事务性。但归根结底，关键在于我们如何作为人类建立联系。嗯。以及如何让工作变得更——我不知道怎么说——可持续、充实、富有情感，因为一切本就如此。确实。

very transactional. But at the end of the day, it's about how do we connect as humans. Mhmm. And how do we make work more I don't know, sustaining, fulfilling, emotional, because everything is. Exactly.

我从你们的对话中领悟到的另一点，是特蕾西谈到通过丰富的文化表达来降低自我披露的风险。这让我立刻想起，一位在印度的同事曾给我们办公室寄了些点心，并附上了一整页的说明，解释这些点心在特定节日的意义，以及她与这些点心的情感联系，还有她家人是如何庆祝的。这让我们对她有了更多了解，虽然我们不常交谈，但我与她建立了温暖的联结。我常思考这个问题：如果要回答私人问题，如何提供更多背景，让同事不仅知道一个细节，而是理解这个细节背后的意义。

The other thing I really took from your conversation was when Tracey was talking about mitigating the risks of self disclosure by using rich cultural expression. It immediately brought to mind, you know, a colleague based in India once sent some treats to our office and sent along with it this page long explanation of what those treats meant around the specific holiday, but also her emotional connection to and how her family celebrates. And it was just a wonderful way for us to understand a little bit more about her. And she's someone I don't talk to regularly, but I just had such a warm connection with her. And I thought about that a lot of like, okay, if I'm gonna answer a personal question, how do I give more context to it so that my colleague, it's not just a detail, but it's a detail with meaning.

嗯。嗯。我很喜欢这个例子。我们刚过完逾越节和复活节假期。嗯。

Mhmm. Mhmm. I love that. We've just come off of the Passover and Easter holidays. Mhmm.

逾越节是我最喜欢的节日。是吗？我最喜欢它的原因之一，是因为我对祖父母的逾越节家宴有着非常美好的回忆。

And Passover is is I think it's my favorite holiday. Is it? And one of the reasons it's my favorite holiday is because I have really wonderful memories of my grandparents' seders.

而且

And

几周前我们和一些朋友共度逾越节家宴时，我旁边坐着一位初次见面的人，她向我讲述她小时候参加的家宴。我当然也兴致勃勃地分享了我童年的家宴故事。作为孙辈，我和弟弟是家宴的焦点——如果真能这么说的话。她停下来沉思片刻，说这就是逾越节家宴如此美妙的原因，它让我们有机会重新与自己、家人和传统建立联系。

when we were at our seder with some friends a couple weekends ago, I was sitting next to someone I'd never met before, and she was telling me about the seder she attended as a child. So, of course, I was regaling her with stories about the seders I went to as a child. And, you know, as the grandchild, I was the star. My brother and I were the stars of the seder, if such a thing can be said. And she stopped and and reflected a moment and said, this is what makes seders so wonderful, so that it gives us a chance to reconnect with ourselves, with our families, with our heritage.

嗯。你刚才的话让我想起了这个。

Mhmm. And you just made me think of that.

是啊。真希望人们能看到我此刻灿烂的笑容，因为我正在想象你在家宴上的样子，小时候的你，完全能想象你是整个仪式的明星。我参加过的几次逾越节家宴中，印象最深的就是孩子们会去寻找Afikomen（无酵饼）。对吧？

Yeah. I wish people could say I have the biggest smile on my face because I'm like, oh, I love picturing you at the seder and you as a kid and totally can picture you as the star of the the path. My one takeaway from the the few seders I've I've attended is that the children get to go search for the Afikomen. Yes. Right?

这让你成为焦点。

Which makes you the star.

嗯，还有那四个问题。

Like Well, also the four questions.

四个问题。

The four questions.

我和弟弟会一起唱歌，但我总想唱得比他大声一点。他是我的皮普，我是他的格拉迪斯·奈特，虽然他并不知道这个比喻。这段回忆我无比珍视。嗯。能谈起这件事，真的让我心里暖暖的。

My brother and I would sing together, but I would always try to sing just a little bit louder. He was the pip to my Gladys Knight, though he didn't know that. It's just it's a memory that I absolutely cherish. Mhmm. And being able to talk about it, it really warms me.

我认为这正是自我表露的双向益处，尤其是通过这种丰富的文化表达——你因分享自我而被看见，对方也看到了你的新面向。你可能还会唤起他们的共鸣，让他们也愿意分享。

And I think that's the the two sided benefit of self disclosure, especially with this rich cultural expression, is that you feel seen because you're sharing a part of you and the other person sees a new side of you. And you may be reminding them of something that then they get to share as well.

嗯。嗯。

Mhmm. Mhmm.

就这样建立了美好的联结。嗯。以上就是本期节目。我是艾米·加洛。

Just creates a nice connection. Mhmm. That's our show. I'm Amy Gallo.

我是艾米·伯恩斯坦。《职场女性》的编辑制作团队包括阿曼达·克西、莫琳·霍赫、蒂娜·托比·麦克、罗布·埃克哈特、伊恩·福克斯和汉娜·贝茨。场景音乐由罗宾·摩尔创作。

And I'm Amy Bernstein. Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Tina Toby Mac, Rob Eckhart, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed the scene music.

欢迎通过women@workathbr.org邮箱联系我们。

Get in touch with us by emailing women@workathbr.org.