朱莉娅·洛佩兹特辑

大家好，我是安德鲁·多伊尔。10月20日在格拉斯哥的帕维隆剧院，我将为《旁观者》杂志采访皮尔斯·摩根。在这场关于他的新书《觉醒已死》的独家无删节对话中，我们将探讨回归常识的可能性，以及文化潮流在政治、媒体和日常生活中如何转变。活动时间是10月20日晚7:30，地点格拉斯哥帕维隆剧院。如需购票，请访问spectator.co.uk/woke is dead。

Hello. I'm Andrew Doyle, and on the October 20 at the Pavilion Theatre in Glasgow, I'm going to be interviewing Piers Morgan for The Spectator. In this exclusive and unfiltered conversation about his new book, Woke is Dead, we're gonna be discussing what a return to common sense might look like and how the cultural tide is shifting across politics, the media, and everyday life. That's gonna be 07:30PM, October 20, Pavilion Theatre Glasgow. So if you want tickets, just go to spectator.co.uk/woke is dead.

届时见。

See you there.

本期《Women With Balls》由联盟惠顿投资信托赞助。从1970年代的欧佩克石油危机、2008年2月的金融崩溃，到新冠疫情和利兹·特拉斯灾难性的首相任期，过去58年经济危机从未间断。但在此期间，我们每年都毫无例外地为股东派发了递增的股息。事实上，联盟惠顿的历史可追溯至1888年，如今我们管理着约50亿英镑的资产。

This episode of Women With Balls is sponsored by Alliance Witten Investment Trust. From the OPEC oil crisis of the nineteen seventies, the financial crash in 02/2008, to the COVID epidemic and Liz Truss's doomed premiership, there has been no shortage of economic crises over the last fifty eight years. And yet, throughout that time, every single year, without fail, we've paid out an increased dividend to our shareholders. In fact, Alliance Whitton's history dates all the way back to 1888. And today, we manage around £5,000,000,000 in assets.

若您正在寻找压力更小的股票投资方式，请深入了解联盟惠顿，找到您的舒适投资区。

If you're looking for a less stressful way to invest in stocks and shares, learn more about Alliance Whitten and find your comfort zone.

大家好，欢迎收听《Women of Balls》，我是凯蒂·鲍尔斯，今天将与当代开拓者们对话。我的嘉宾自2017年起担任保守党议员，出生于哈洛，成长于埃塞克斯郡斯坦斯特德，曾在剑桥大学攻读社会与政治科学，后为地方政府及时任保守党议员马克·菲尔德工作。2017年首次当选为东伦敦外围选区Horn Church和Upminster的议员，成功度过了英国政坛动荡时期，先后在鲍里斯·约翰逊、利兹·特拉斯和里希·苏纳克三位首相任内担任过部长职务——虽然任期长短不一。

Hello, and welcome to Woman of Balls where I, Katie Balls, speak today's trailblazers. My guest today has been a Conservative MP since 2017. Born in Harlow and raised in Stansted, Essex, she studied social and political sciences at Cambridge before working in local government as well as for the then conservative MP Mark Field. First elected as the MP for Horn Church in Upminster, a constituency in out to East London in 2017. She has successfully navigated a turbulent time of British politics going on to hold ministerial roles under three prime ministers Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, and Rishi Sunak, some for longer periods than others.

她在2024年保守党领袖选举中击败了凯米·巴德诺赫，此后一直担任反对党领袖的议会私人秘书。今天的嘉宾是朱莉娅·洛佩兹。朱莉娅，非常感谢参加本期播客，很高兴你能来。我们通常以同一个问题开始：你的童年幸福吗？

She bet Kemi Badenoch during the twenty twenty four Tory leadership election, has been the PPS to the leader of the opposition ever since. My guest today is Julia Lopez. Julia, thanks very much for joining the podcast today. Delighted to have you here. And we tend to begin by asking the same question, which is, was yours a happy childhood?

我记得你是三姐妹中最小的。

I think you were the youngest of three girls.

我是三个女孩中最小的一个，童年非常幸福。父母在埃塞克斯为我们创造了很好的生活。他们最初银行里只有50英镑，却逐步建立起优渥的生活。实际上在撒切尔时代，他们常跟我讲1970年代多么艰难，父亲当时如何在东伦敦与工会周旋，并在联合乳品公司（Unigate）打拼出一番事业。所以我们得以在埃塞克斯过着优渥的中产阶级生活。

I was the youngest of three girls and it was a very happy childhood. My parents had created a really good life for us in Essex. They started with £50 in the bank and had built a good life. Under the Thatcher era actually, they talked to me a lot about the 1970s and how difficult they were and how dad had dealt with the trade unions in East London at the time and had built a good career in a business called Unigate. And so we were living a very good middle class life in Essex.

我父母是在伯明翰相识的。因此我的成长背景带着些摇滚色彩——那个时代的音乐和氛围确实深深影响了我的童年。

My parents had met in Birmingham. And so I had a bit of a sort of rock and roll background in the sense that the music and the era of that time really sort of influenced my childhood.

你提到父亲谈论工会的事。那么在你成长过程中，家庭里是否存在某种政治倾向或政治立场？

You mentioned your dad talking about the trade unions there. So was there a sense of a politics or political allegiance growing up in your family or?

父母是坚定的保守党支持者。我想部分源于他们亲身经历的1970年代困境，以及他们在保守党政府时期获得成功的事实。当时很多怀抱抱负的人都有同感，他们白手起家为自己创造了美好生活。

Well, parents were strong conservatives. Yeah. And I think partly because of their own experiences of that time in the 1970s and how difficult it was. And the fact that they had made good under a conservative government. And I think a lot of aspirational people felt that at the time, having very much and built good life for themselves.

因此他们对保守党政府心怀感激。但他们本质上并非热衷政治的人。

And so I think they were very grateful to the conservative government because of that. But they weren't deeply political people in that way.

你和姐姐们之间竞争激烈吗？存在姐妹间的较劲吗？

For your sisters, were you very competitive with one another sibling rivalries?

噢说不上。更多是通过观察姐姐们的行为来吸取教训。我成长过程中并不叛逆，因为目睹过姐姐们叛逆的后果——那对我毫无吸引力。母亲说我从小就比较自立，是个注重隐私的独立个体。但要问是否与姐姐们竞争？倒也说不上。

Oh, I don't know. I think more that you look at your older sisters and you learn from them sometimes what not to do. So I wasn't a particularly rebellious person when I was growing up because I think I'd seen my sisters rebel and it didn't look very attractive to me. So I was always sort of, I kind of looked, well, mom says I sort of raised myself as quite a self sufficient person, quite a private, independent person, but not, well, do I feel competitive with my sisters? I don't know, not really.

除了他们很年轻就找到了伴侣并有了孩子这一点外，我一直想确保自己也能如此，但总有些担心这不会发生在我身上。

Apart from the fact that they found their partners very young and they had children and I just always want to make sure that I had the same and I was always a bit worried that that wouldn't happen.

这很合理，你去了当地的综合学校。所以你并非叛逆者，而是自给自足，最终还进入了剑桥大学，像女生突击队那样努力学习，这是自然而然发生的吗？

That makes sense and you went to your local comprehensive. So you were not a rebel, you were self sufficient and you did go on to get into Cambridge, so girly SWAT, working hard, It did it come just came naturally.

嗯，我不想听起来像是‘哦，这很自然’，但我在学校确实有点懒，不过我有一群很好的女性朋友。所以我觉得这很有帮助，因为在班上表现好并不尴尬。但我不认为自己是什么突击队员，也没有那种明确的野心，比如必须去剑桥或必须做某些事。

Well, I don't wanna sound like, oh, it came naturally, but I think I was a little bit lazy at school, but I had a really good group of girlfriends. And so I think that really helped because it wasn't sort of embarrassing to do well in class or anything. But no, wouldn't call myself a SWAT. And yeah, I didn't sit there and have this very clear ambition. Want to go to Cambridge and I need to do this and I need to that.

如果说有什么的话，我可能有点懒，这让我的老师们有点沮丧。

I think if anything, I was a little bit lazy frustrated my teachers a bit.

那么你申请剑桥的动力是什么？是家族传统，还是有老师建议你‘该努力了，孩子’？

So what was your part to applying for Cambridge then? Did, you know, was there a history of that in your family or was there a sense that a teacher said you should do this and buck up kid?

我只是去了当地学校的图书馆，发现了一本小册子和一个看起来很酷的课程。当时真的很简单，我觉得大学应该学英语，因为我擅长这个。看到这个课程时，我喜欢提问环节，但说实话，你根本不知道自己在做什么对吧？有些人确实目标明确且理解透彻。

I just went to the local school library and found a book let in it and a course that looked quite cool. At the time, mean, it's really as simple as I thought I would do English at university because I was good at it. And I saw this course and I thought and I enjoyed question time and it was really, you don't know what you're doing, do you? I mean, some people are very driven and understanding.

而有些人，我觉得从十岁起就开始规划通往牛津剑桥的道路，你懂我的意思吗？这档播客里就有这样的人。

And some people spend, I think like, I feel like some people spend, from ten years onwards plotting their path to Oxbridge, do you know what I mean? And some of these people have been on this podcast.

是的，他们规划通往牛津剑桥的道路，也规划通往威斯敏斯特的路径。这两件事我都没做。我更像是在摸索前行。我并非出身政治世家。其实我有个表亲确实去了剑桥，但对我来说，这样就足够了。

Yeah, and they plot their path to Oxbridge, they plot their path to Westminster. I did neither of those things. It was all sort of finding my way. A say didn't come from a political family. And I mean, my cousin had gone to Cambridge actually, but yeah, it was enough.

并不是父母在逼迫或灌输我必须去。更像是，我自己找到了方向。说到职业指导的程度——不知道你是否有过这种经历，凯蒂——

It wasn't like my parents were pushing me and impressing on me that I must go. It was sort of, I found my way. You know, the extent of careers advice, I don't know if you had this Katie, but-

我妈妈其实是职业顾问。

My mom is actually a careers advisor.

哦真的吗？那她有没有用过叫'Kudos'的软件？就是那种老式电脑程序，你勾选可能喜欢的职业选项，结果蹦出来'殡葬承办人'。说真的，这就是当时职业指导的全部内容——

Oh really? Well, did she have a program called Kudos Where you like these old computer programs where you put in, tick boxes of what you might like to do and it comes out with funeral director. I mean, was literally the extent of the

对，我们当时也有类似的东西。完全没错。而且那个年纪的我可能也没在认真听。后来你就去了剑桥大学对吧？

Yeah, support there was we something like that. Yeah, exactly. I also wasn't perhaps in listening mode at that age. Yeah. Now, so you go to Cambridge University.

你过得愉快吗？有没有特别参加什么社团？有没有结识什么后来成名的同辈人物？

Did you have a good time? Did you get involved in any societies particularly? Do you have any famous or equal contemporaries?

这么说吧，我在大学时期也并不热衷政治。在家乡我有帮很好的朋友，我们经常举办家庭派对什么的。所以对很多人来说，大学生活意味着社交圈的新发现，但我早就拥有很棒的伙伴了。

So, again, I wasn't massively political at university. I had a really good group of friends at home and we'd have lots of house parties and whatever. So for me, a lot of people for university, the revelation is the social life, but I already had good group of friends.

所以你是从埃塞克斯来的对吧？是的，那是个挺有趣的地方。没错。

So you're coming from Essex, right? Yeah, is quite a fun place. Exactly.

对我来说，真正的启示在于第一次享受学习的过程，同时被逼着非常努力地学习，这有点令人震惊。你从学校里的佼佼者突然意识到自己其实没什么特别的，这个过程让我深刻认识到自己的不足。我认为这有时是有益的。我上的是公立学校，所以在小班辅导时，周围的人都比我懂得多得多。那种感觉就像是，天啊，我得振作起来更加努力才行。

For me, the revelation was actually enjoying learning for the first time and also just being pushed to work really hard, which was a bit of a shock. It was, you you go from being, you know, in the sort of upper crew of your school to suddenly realising that you're really nothing special. It was a great process of making me realise how inadequate I was. So I think that's helpful sometimes, And you I'd gone to a state school, so I would be in small supervisions with people that just knew so much more than I did. And it was a bit of a, oh my God, I need to sort of pull myself together and work harder.

不过我并没有参加任何政治社团，除了去学生会看辩论赛，那里有像蒂姆·斯坦利这样的人——他现在是《每日电讯报》的专栏作家。比我高一级的有个野心勃勃的家伙叫韦斯·斯特里廷，我记得他的传单总是散落在地上，因为他总在竞选全国学联主席之类的职位。我们学院还有个叫奥利·沙阿的人，现在是《星期日泰晤士报》的商业编辑。

But no, I wasn't in any of these political societies, apart from I went to the union to watch debating and people like Tim Stanley were there. He's now a telegraph columnist. The year above me was a very ambitious guy called Wes Streeting. So I just remember his leaflets were always on the floor because he was always campaigning to be like the NUS head or something like that. And in my college was a guy called Ollie Shah who's now the Sunday Times business editor.

我和奥利是朋友，看着同龄人突然做出大事业感觉很奇妙。

So I was friends with Ollie and it's just bizarre to see your contemporaries suddenly do big stuff.

是啊，我和塞巴斯蒂安·佩恩是大学同期生。哦，但我们在校期间从没说过话。后来我们一起读了新闻学硕士，还是没怎么交流。最后却都进了《旁观者》杂志，这才熟络起来。

Yeah, went to university at the same time as Sebastian Payne. Oh, And well thank we never spoke to each other And then we boated a journalism masters together and we all didn't speak to each other. And then we ended up here at the Spectator and we did.

哦，

Oh,

对。差不多就是这样

right. Yeah. So that's about as

凯蒂，这可是件大事，非常出名。

famous This as a is a big deal, Katie.

他影响力巨大。这么说他可能会杀了我。现在你从剑桥大学毕业了，我想对听众说明一下，那时候你对职业规划有什么想法？能详细说说你的发展路径吗？我猜你是去了东伦敦。

He is huge. He's gonna kill me for saying that. Now, you finish at Cambridge University, I suppose just for listeners, I mean, at that point, what are you thinking career wise? Can you talk us through the path you take? I think you head to East London.

是的，大学时有些人很清楚自己要做什么，非常专注，整个暑假都在银行实习。他们毕业后立刻赚了大钱。而我当时并不确定，只是想着：好吧，接下来这一年我会慢慢想清楚。我打算尝试不同的实习和工作经历，看看什么适合我。周末我还在Sainsbury's超市打工，赚取去伦敦的路费。

Yes, so in uni, there were people that knew what they wanted to do and were very focused and spent all of their summer holidays doing internships in banks. And they went off and they made lots of money immediately. And I was not knowing what I wanted to do beyond sort of thinking, okay, I'm just trying to work it out in this coming year, I'll work it out. I was gonna do various different internships, work experiences and see what works for me. And then I'd work at Sainsbury's at the weekend to get the money and the train fare to go to London.

后来我在BBC实习过一段时间，还去过某个自由民主党的智库——说实话当时我连这些机构是干什么的都不太清楚，政治觉悟也不高。还去过类似非政府组织的地方。最后我在当地议员办公室做了两周实习。

And so I did some stints at the BBC. I did some random Lib Dem think tank. I mean, I just didn't even know that these, I don't know, just wasn't that switched on politically. A sort of NGO type one. And then I did a couple of weeks work experience with my local MP.

在威斯敏斯特待了一天之后，我就强烈感觉到：我必须留在这里。这是个令人兴奋的地方。我主要渴望了解世界运行的规律，而这里正是绝佳的学习场所。于是我开始给各位议员写信求职。

And I had one day in Westminster and I just had this very strong feeling of just I need to be here. It's an exciting place. I mean, I'm driven mainly by wanting to learn about how the world works and I thought it was a fantastic place to do that. So I just started writing off to MPs saying, can I please have a job?

是所有党派的议员都联系吗？等等，这时候你已经明确自己是保守派了吗？

Were you MPs of all stripes? No, you no, At this point, did you know you knew you were a conservative do you think?

没错，我父母是坚定的保守党支持者，我就在这样的家庭长大。大学期间我验证了这些理念，最终形成了自己的保守派观点。这在当时并不时髦——布莱尔如日中天，伊拉克战争爆发，自由民主党才是潮流。但我从成长背景到个人观点都倾向于保守主义。

Yeah, well, mean, parents as say were very strongly conservative. So that was the sort of household I grew up in and I tested those beliefs and views at university and realised that that's what my own views were. That's not a particularly fashionable thing, but yeah, mean it was the time when Tony Blair was all powerful. It was the Iraq war. It was very fashionable to be a Lib Dem at the time, but I felt that I had sort of background and own views were conservative.

是的，我只向保守党议员提交了申请，最终得到了F的职位。后来我为那位议员工作，没错，马克，他是伦敦城和威斯敏斯特的议员。这是最不可思议的选区，因为它让你接触到伦敦城的金融服务业。苏活区汇聚了所有创意产业，那里可以说是...

So yes, I applied to only conservative MPs and I got to F. So then I got a job working for the MP who, yes, Mark, who was the MP for the cities of London and Westminster. And it is the most incredible constituency because it gives you access to the world of financial services with the city of London. You have all the creative industries in Soho. You have the sort of heart of Yeah, know a lot of

很多人都想当那个CEO。

people wanted that CEO.

没错，那里是我们首都的核心地带，你能学到很多。我参与了许多令人惊叹的事情——从探索舰队街的下水道，到穿越正在建设的横贯铁路隧道，甚至在'对讲机大楼'竣工前就登顶过。同时还能接触到形形色色的人物。当时正值欧盟扩张时期，我们处理的事务从维多利亚车站周边的波兰无家可归者，到那时涌入伦敦的超级富豪俄罗斯人。

Yeah, mean, it's absolute core of our capital city and you learn so much. So I was doing awesome things from going into the fleet sewers and going into the cross rail tunnels as they were being built to standing on top of the walkie talkie before it's even being completed. And this amazing access to every type of person as well. It was the time of the enlargement of the European Union. So we were dealing with everything from Polish homeless people around Victoria Station to the sort of very uber rich Russians that were arriving in London at that time.

这段经历让你对这个国家的运作机制有了深刻理解，简直精彩绝伦。

So it was just, it gave you an amazing understanding of how the country works and it was incredibly interesting.

显然你在威斯敏斯特积累经验后，下一步自然就是成为市议员了。

And obviously you're learning from Westminster, but then you obviously take a step to eventually becoming a councillor.

我

I

想一旦你在威斯敏斯特尝到甜头，要产生'我想成为决策者之一'的念头也就不足为奇了。不，让我

suppose as soon as you get the bug from being in Westminster, it's not too much of a jump to then think, I want to be one of the people that actually No, make me

因为人们总问我，'你一定想当议员吧'。绝对不想。说真的，若我有此打算，就不会给议员当助手了。我的背景恰恰是民众最反感的议员模板——学政治出身又投身政坛。但成为国会议员从来不在我的人生规划里，这一切源于一连串意外：我们的实习生去了陶尔哈姆莱茨区议会工作。

because I think people always ask me, Oh, you must want to be an MP. Absolutely not. I mean, if I wanted to be an MP, I would not have worked for an MP. Mean, I am the absolute standard of what people don't want in terms of an MP's background, in terms of having studied politics and then gone into politics, But it was not my intention ever to become a member of parliament. It was something that happened by a series of events where our intern went to work for Tower Hamlet's council.

他当时说'你绝对无法想象当地民主制度沦落到何种地步'。于是我和同事参加了一场市政厅会议，竟目睹议员们肢体冲突甚至发出死亡威胁。正是这场闹剧开启了我的选举政治生涯——回家公交车上，我强烈意识到我们的民主制度出现了严重问题。

And he said, you just will not believe what this place is like in terms of what's happened to the local democracy. And so my colleague and I went along to one of the town hall meetings. And it was one of these meetings where a physical fight broke out between councillors and death threats were issued. And that's what really kicked off my political, elected political career. I was on the bus home and I had this very strong sense that something had gone very deeply wrong with our democracy.

那是个'天啊'的觉醒时刻。我想若不去尝试改变，今后将无颜面对镜中的自己——目睹问题却逃避，我就成了共犯。于是不得不更深入参与政治：开始在陶尔哈姆莱茨与当地保守党人开展活动，自荐参选议员却被拒，反倒如释重负想着'谢天谢地我尽力了'。结果他们又来电说原候选人退出问我是否愿意接替。

And it was a bit of a, oh my God moment. And I thought I don't think I can look at myself in the mirror if I don't try and change that because if I don't try and change it I'm part of the problem, I've seen this issue and I can't turn away from it and I thought oh no, I'm gonna have to get more politically involved. So I started campaigning with the local conservatives in Tower Hamlets and I put myself forward to be a council candidate and I got rejected and I thought, thank God. I've tried, so I've tried, thank God! Eventually they called me up and said, well actually that person dropped out, would you consider doing it?

最终决定一试，每个周末奔波于狗岛、莱姆豪斯、沃平等地的市政公寓之间，后来成功当选陶尔哈姆莱茨区议员。需要说明背景：当地孟加拉裔社区传统上支持工党，而伊拉克战争期间乔治·加洛韦在东区煽动对立，导致该社区分裂成不同政治派系。

I thought, okay, well I'll have to give it a go, and so I spent my weekends going up and down council estates in the Isle Of Dogs and Limehouse and Wapping and eventually got elected to Townhomes Council. Just to give some context to why it was so problematic. It was in, I mean, the the Bangladeshi community in Townhomes had sort of traditionally voted for labor. And in the Iraq war, George Galloway gone into the East End and basically stirred everything up. That community had fractured into different political groupings.

派系间存在激烈敌对，形成了极其恶劣的政治生态。这就是十年前我亲历的乱象——时任市长卢瑟·拉赫曼被控贪污，各种滥用公款和权力寻租的指控甚嚣尘上。

And there was sort of very hard rivalries between them. And it created a very toxic politics. And that was effectively what I had found in that time ten years on. And the mayor of Town Hamlets, Luthor Raman, was being accused of corruption. There was all kinds of allegations going around about the misuse of public funds and the way in which he was trying to get political influence.

事实正是如此：区议会已彻底腐化，我们议员任期内全力整顿，最终将卢瑟赶下台。

And that's effectively what happened. A council had become deeply toxic and we spent our time as councillors trying to resolve that and Lutfer got chucked out of office eventually.

那段日子很艰难吧？

Was it a pretty tough gig then?

是啊，确实如此。

Yeah, it was, it was.

那你是否遭遇过来自——

And did you face hostility from-

你知道吗，我和卢特弗党以及工党的顾问们相处得相当不错。这些都是宝贵的经验，毕竟我顶着剑桥学位的光环进去时，还自以为——

You know what, I'd gone pretty well with the counsellors in Lutfer's party and in labor. And it was great lessons because, you know, I go in there with my Cambridge degree and I think, oh, you know.

我是最耀眼的那个，还有那些女演员们。

I'm the shiny one and the actresses.

没错，但这些家伙实在太老谋深算了，能在政治上把你玩得团团转。亲眼目睹这种原始粗粝的政治操作，其实挺有意思的。

Yeah, and these guys are just so bloody wily and can do you over politically. And it's kind of, it's good to watch that kind of raw, gritty politics in action.

你确实学到了很多。

You actually learned a lot.

对，对，绝对是这样。那段日子很艰难。当时我们区有几个女学生跑去叙利亚了，还得处理这类棘手的社会问题。

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it was tough. And it was also a difficult time there. There was a couple of school girls had gone from the borough to Syria. And so dealing with some of those difficult social issues.

我确实感到惊讶，是的。没错，

That I surprised, yeah. Yeah,

是的，那是一段非常、非常有趣且艰难的时期，但也绝对令人着迷。

yeah, so and that it was a very, very interesting and difficult time, but absolutely fascinating.

所以你经历了那段艰难又有趣的时光，然后你想，我要再提升一个档次。

So you have that difficult and interesting time, and then you think, I'll take it up a gear.

再次说明，我从未想过，那并非我预想的人生方向。人们开始对我说，哦，你知道，你是个好议员，应该考虑竞选国会议员。我完全没有，绝对不。那不是我看待自己人生的方向。但艾伦·黑兹尔赫斯特，我成长所在地的议员，有人说，哦，我觉得他会在下次选举时退休。

Again, I had not, that was not where I saw my life going. People started to say to me, oh, you know, you're a good councillor, you should think about standing for parliament. I've no, absolutely not. That's not where I see my life going. But Alan Hazelhurst, who was the MP for my seat where I grew up, somebody said, oh, I think he'll retire at the next election.

如果你不去争取你的家乡席位，可能会后悔。下次选举将在2020年举行，当时大约是2015、16年。你现在不必做决定，只需加入候选人名单，看生活会将你带向何方。我想，好吧，我可以接受。我会申请加入候选人名单，看看会发生什么。

You might regret it if you don't go for your home seat. The next election is going to be in 2020 as this point is about 2015, 'sixteen. You don't have to decide now, just get on the candidates list and see where life takes you. I thought, fine, okay, I can accept that. I'll apply for the candidates list and see what happens.

是的，我成功进入了候选人名单，这背后也有一段故事。然后特蕾莎·梅突然宣布提前选举。很快，我就被列入了霍恩彻奇和厄普敏斯特的候选名单。他们认为这个席位适合我，因为我在埃塞克斯长大，有东伦敦的背景，这个席位实际上是这两种文化的融合。

And yes, I got on the candidates list, a bit of a sort of story behind that as well. And then Theresa May called a snap election. And so within very short order, had been put into the shortlist for Horn Church in Upminster. I think they thought it was a good seat for me because I grew up in Essex. I've got a background in East London and the seat is effectively a blend of those two cultures.

选举大约在六周内举行，突然间我就站在了那里。我在选拔中击败了其他候选人。我没有告诉父母我正在做这些事。之后我只是打电话给他们说，我刚被选中了。他们的反应有点...他们说了什么？

And the election was sort of within six weeks and suddenly there I was. I managed to beat the other candidates in the selection. I didn't tell my parents that I was doing any of this. And I just called them up afterwards and said, I've just been selected. And it was a bit of a What did they say?

我觉得他们当时很震惊。

I think they were shocked.

是高兴还是震惊？因为对家庭成员的丈夫来说可能相当困难，你知道，他们看到所爱之人成为议员，这份工作有很多不那么光鲜的部分。

Happy or shocked? Because it can be quite difficult for a family member's husband, you know, they see someone they love become an MP because there's lots of bits of the job which are less pretty.

是啊，接下来一周他们在为藏红花沃登选区——我的家乡选区——进行选拔，还有一场与凯米·贝塔的竞争。没错，最终凯米赢得了席位。事后看来，我很庆幸没有在自己长大的选区当选，因为政治是残酷的。如果我的家人看到我在网上被批评，而批评者是他们认识的人，那会很难承受。

Yeah, well, the next week they were selecting for Saffron Warden, which is my home seat and- A certain Kemi Beta race. Yeah, exactly. And Kemi got that. And in hindsight, I think I'm very glad that I didn't have the seat in which I grew up because politics is a rough business. And I think if my family were seeing me being criticized online and then it was the people they knew, I think that'd be very hard.

所以我很庆幸现实没有朝那个方向发展。

So I'm glad that that was not the way that life went.

2017年确实很戏剧性，因为竞选开始时，虽然政界从不会掉以轻心，但很多人预想特蕾莎·梅会扩大保守党原本微弱的多数优势，甚至可能达到三位数或至少高两位数，以对抗杰里米·科尔宾。结果她却失去了多数席位，不得不与民主统一党达成协议。而你实际上是和凯米·巴德诺克（我们提过）、李·罗利（虽然后来不再是议员，但现在与你共事密切）等少数几位新晋议员之一。在整体局势不利的情况下获胜，感觉很奇怪吧？

Now, 2017 was of course a funny one because when that campaign started, I think lots of obviously, no one is ever complacent in politics, but lots of people were imagining a scenario whereby Theresa May would increase the very small Tory majority she had to perhaps even a three figure majority or high double figures at minimum against Jeremy Corbyn, and then she would push through her Brexit plan. Instead, she lost her majority and they had to do a deal with the DEP. And you're actually one of a fairly small number of MPs who came up along with Cami Badenock, who we mentioned. Lee Rowley, no longer an MP, but of course now working closely with you and Was it a strange feeling to win, but in a way the general picture was not that?

确实，选举当晚我就有种强烈的直觉——这将是一段非常艰难的时期。虽然人们说'你一定很激动'，但一切发生得太快，我还在消化。我清楚那个议会将非常糟糕，因为我们得在无多数优势的情况下推动脱欧。

Yeah, I mean, on the night of the election, I felt very deeply in my gut that this was going to be a very, very difficult time. So people are, Oh, you must be so thrilled. First of all, all happened very quickly. So I was trying to get my head around that. But then I just knew that that parliament was going to be terrible because we were trying to live a Brexit with no majority.

我们这批苏格兰新议员带着积极态度进入议会，但党内其他成员完全沉浸在哀悼情绪中。气氛非常阴郁——梅的首相之位立刻受到质疑。

And we came in, you know, positively. There was a big group of Scots in that intake. So there was a real sort of sense of positivity that they were there, but the rest of the party was in total mourning. So it was a very dark atmosphere. I mean, there's immediately questions about May's future.

一开始，全是关于她的顾问们。还记得当时有种声音说他们必须下台，是的。他们——我是说，实际上那就像一个议会，除了脱欧议题外一事无成，而脱欧最终也没完成。由于我们没有多数席位，其他事务都停滞不前。任何事都难以推进。

Straight away, it was all about her advisors. Do you remember there was all the sort of, they must go, Yes. Which they I mean, it was just, it was effectively a parliament, which nothing else apart from Brexit, well, Brexit didn't get done, but there was nothing else happening because we'd had no majority. It was hard to get anything over the line.

你根本无法制定计划或采取行动，因为实质上是个悬峙议会

You couldn't really make any plans or move, Because there's effectively but a hung parliament

我们有这群2017年当选的杰出同僚，其中一些人如今与我成了非常亲密的朋友，因为共同经历的特殊时期。那段议会岁月极度紧张艰难，深刻影响了人们的生活。如果大家还记得，那简直是黄金档电视剧——那些投票，所谓'有意义的投票'，伯考甚至成了国际电视名人。而我就在三月份...等等，我是什么时候怀孕的？

we had this great group of 20 seventeeners, some of whom I just am very, very close friends with now, because you go through times that you have an experience with anybody else. I mean, that parliament was an intensely stressful and difficult time and had a huge impact on people's lives. It was box office TV if people remember. I mean, those votes, the meaningful votes and Burko became sort of international TV figure. And I just in the March, oh, when did I get pregnant?

大约在有意义投票期间，怀孕初期几周压力巨大。因为李和我都决定不支持梅的协议，所以我尽量保持低调，既不想做错决定，也不想被党鞭施压。我以为党鞭们会有一套精密机制——稍有反抗迹象就会对你展开行动，彻底压制。突然间各种传闻满天飞。

Around the meaningful votes, early weeks of pregnancy and that was just incredibly stressful because, Lee and I had both decided that we didn't think we could vote for May's deal and so I tried to keep as low a profile as I could because I didn't want to get that decision wrong, and I didn't want the whips to start like turning the screws on me. I thought that the whips would have this really sophisticated operation whereby any hint of rebellion and you would literally be, know, an operation would be done against you and you would be buried. Suddenly reading stories.

没错，邀约会突然中断

Yeah, exactly. Invites would stop coming in.

实际并未发生。我唯一的'惩罚'是被调去联合法定文书委员会，现在回想那是对我不支持首相的惩戒。我们这小群人意识到不能支持协议，到最后关头确实艰难。但对我而言，那时已无关脱欧本身，而是我强烈感到议会正在阻挠公众的民主意志——有人试图用理论粉饰这一事实，但本质就是如此。出于本能，我无法容许这种事。

That didn't happen. The only thing that happened to me was that I was put in the Joint Statutory Instruments Committee, which I think in hindsight was a punishment for not supporting the prime minister. But yes, so there's a small group of us who realised we couldn't vote for the deal and so yeah, that was difficult because it got down to the sort of real hardcore. But for me by that point it wasn't really about Brexit, it was about the fact that I felt very strongly that Parliament was trying to stop the democratic will of the public, and had tried to sort of intellectualise it and pretend that that wasn't what was happening, that fundamentally was what was happening, and I just, I felt on a gut level I couldn't allow that.

我在开场提到你曾为不同首相效力

I mentioned in the introduction that you've worked for different prime ministers.

是的。

Yes.

里奇·库纳克、利兹·特拉斯、鲍里斯·约翰逊，为不同首相工作感觉差异很大吗？对此你有什么感想？假设你没有，我想在利兹·特拉斯任期内这份工作持续时间很短，所以。

Richie Cunak, Liz Truss, Boris Johnson, did it feel very different working for different ones? Do you have any reflections on that? Suppose you didn't, I suppose in the Liz Truss premiership it wasn't a very long job, so.

是啊，我是说，当鲍里斯赢得多数席位时非常激动，我们终于有望在两年无所作为后大展拳脚。那是个充满希望的时期，而我刚生下第一个孩子，分娩后大约五天就宣布了大选。所以那真是段紧张的日子。紧接着我们就进入了疫情。

Yeah, well, I mean, it was so exciting when Boris got that majority and there was this great hope that we were going to be able to do things after two years of not being able to do very much at all. So it was a time of great hope and I just had my first baby, so I gave birth and then about five days later the election was called. So that was a really intense time. Then we went straight into the pandemic.

如果你后来必须投入玛丽竞选活动，选民们会理解你露面较少的情况吗？还是说其实无所谓？

And what if you had to then, I suppose, into the election Mary campaign, were voters understanding if you're out a bit less or doesn't really

当时有太多事情同时发生。那实际上是个单一议题的选举，选民们主要在想：谁能带我们走出这个困境？所以那确实是段非常紧张的时期。

Well, there was so much going on then. I mean, really wasn't, it was a single issue election. So it really was more about voters saying, who do we think is going to get us out of this morass? Yeah. So yeah, mean, that was a very intense time.

就像我说的，我们原本对凭借80席多数席位能实现的变革充满期待，但紧接着就遭遇了疫情。某种程度上它吞噬了一切。我当时正在休产假，所以错过了疫情初期最紧张的阶段。但我觉得它完全消耗了政府精力，同时我们还在处理欧盟过渡期事务。

As I say, I thought there was this great hope about what we could finally do with this 80 majority and then hit by the pandemic straight afterwards. And so in a way that just ate everything. I mean, was on maternity leave at the time, so I missed the sort of first part of the pandemic in terms of the intensity of that. But I just think ate government up. And it was also the time that we had the EU transition staff.

后来我成为内阁办公室大臣，既要应对疫情管理，又要设法完成脱欧和贸易协定谈判。因此，每位我所效力的首相都深受当时局势影响。对鲍里斯来说，由于这个吞噬一切的重大危机，他可能很难推进许多原本想做的事。

So I became a minister in the Cabinet Office and we were dealing with both the management of the pandemic and trying to come out of the EU and do that trade deal. So in a way, each prime minister that I served under was shaped by the events going on around them. And it was difficult for Boris to probably do a lot of the things he wanted to do because of that just big issue eating everything else up.

我认为我有理由说，在卡米·巴登两次竞选领导人的过程中你都反对了她。显然第一次是在利兹·特拉斯赢得领导权选举时——我都记不清了。后来当她上台后，你再次反对。我记得当时对卡米·雷登有些批评，说她太年轻缺乏经验等等。但回顾2017年那批议员，我感觉你们像个小团体——可能这个词不太准确，或许因为你们是少数派，但你们在意识形态上似乎高度一致，持有某种不同的保守主义理念，对未来方向有独特见解，与其他同僚有所不同。

I think I'm right to say that you bat Cami Baden up twice in her efforts to be leader. And obviously the first time around was the leadership election that Liz Truss, I lose track. Liz Truss went on to win, then, of course, when she said it came in after. And I think at that time when there was a there was a bit of a criticism against Cami Raiden, not go, she's too young and inexperienced and so forth. But we go back to that 2017 group, and I just feel it seemed to me that as a squad might be the wrong phrase, perhaps partly because you are a small intake, you've always seemed to be quite ideologically aligned and to have a sense of, to almost have a slightly different type of conservatism or sense of where you want to go, some of, I suppose, you know, the others around.

这只是我的臆想吗？不，我是不是想太多了

Is that in my head No, am I onto think it's

确实是你的臆想。

in your head.

那你觉得该如何定义这种特质呢？

And how would you define it, I guess?

疫情期间，我们一群人经常聚在一起讨论对策，对当时的处理方式和巨额开支感到担忧。我当时在内阁办公室工作，感觉就像住在一座年久失修的贵族庄园，剥开墙皮就发现墙体在剥落——突然意识到国家机器的运转能力远比想象中糟糕。这段经历让我们获得了独特视角：虽在政府任职却不掌权，反而能退后一步看清问题所在和改革方向。

Well, I mean, whilst the pandemic was going on and all the rest of it, there was sort of group of us getting together expressing our concerns about how that was all being worked through, worrying about the amount of money that was being spent. I mean, was going say I was working in the cabinet office at the time and it was a bit like finding yourself in an old stately home and sort of scraping at the plaster and finding the walls coming off. You suddenly realise that the ability of the state to function wasn't as good as you thought it would be. So I think we've had this, I guess in Mayra's unique opportunity to serve in government, but not be the leaders within government. So to almost be a step back to see what's gone wrong and what needs to change.

我们这代人成长于1980年代，曾以为历史已经终结，制度已然完善。但后来意识到，若要让我们的制度延续下去，让国家保持我们熟悉的样子，就必须进行21世纪的重塑。过去对此太过自满，现在亟需改变。我们正思考如何将执政经验转化为振兴国家的方案。此外也担忧文化领域的演变——虽不愿称之为'觉醒主义'，但许多原本公认的常识正在遭受挑战。

And also, think we, you know, a lot of us grew up in the 1980s with a sense that history was over and that this was a settlement. And then coming to the realization that actually a lot of our institutions, if they're going to survive and provide a country in the kind of country that we grew up in, they have to be renewed for the twenty first century. And I'm feeling like there's been a sense of complacency over that and feeling that that needs to change and how can we take what we've understood from our time in government and apply that to getting the country back into a better place. So I think those are the things and also just a worry culturally about where things have gone. I don't think any of us would want to call it wokeery, but just things that you thought were fact and understood being challenged.

我想正是这些共同关切将我们凝聚在一起。

So I think those are the sorts of things that unites us.

显然现在卡琳·巴德诺赫是领导人，而你作为她的议会私人秘书（PPS），能否谈谈这个角色？因为历史上这常被视为初级随从的职位，但你显然是她核心圈的一员——我并非以神化的口吻说这话，而是因为你确实是她极为倚重的对象。你们有李·莱利担任幕僚长，但当我想到她的核心圈子和那届新议员时，很好奇你能否详细说明你的具体工作。

And obviously now Karin Badenoch is leader and you're in a role as her PPS, but just talk us through that because of course, historically it can be quite like the junior bag carrier role, but you're one of her, which I'm not saying in the sense of God, your role. No, think it's because you're clearly, you know, someone that she listens to a lot. You have Lee Riley as chief of staff. But when I think about her inner circle and that intake, so I wondered if you could just talk us through what you were doing.

是的，我之前从未担任过PPS，是以部长身份直接上任的。所以这对我而言是个学习过程。大选后我曾短暂进入影子内阁，那时就意识到自己更希望进入决策核心，思考如何带领政党走出困境。毕竟我们刚在大选中遭遇了毁灭性打击。

Yeah, so I mean, I've never been a PPS before. I was put in as a minister. And so for me, it's a bit of a learning curve. And I was briefly the South Shadow Cabinet after the election and realized really at that time that I want to be in the engine room and try and work out how we get the party into a better place. Because I mean, obviously, we've just had an absolute hammering at the election.

我们需要从根本上重建政党运作模式。我正尝试组建一个由新晋同僚组成的团队，通过全新的议会监督方式开展培训，同时全力支持凯米履行她的职责——因为我们要对政党进行自上而下或自下而上的全面重建。以我们现有121名议员的规模，这堪称艰巨任务。她的办公室目前仅有10到12人，所有人都得全力以赴投入重建工作。

So there's just a fundamental rebuild of how we manage the party. So I kind of come at it from that. I'm trying to build a group of new colleagues who will hopefully get trained and a different way of doing the parliamentary scrutiny and also just trying to support Kemi in the role that she has because we're trying to rebuild the party from top to bottom or bottom to top or whichever way you want do it. And that's just a massive task with the number of people that we have. I mean, we have 121 MPs, but her office is currently only about ten, eleven, 12 people and having to basically all hands on deck for doing that rebuild.

因此我当前的角色就是既支持她，又试图推动管理方式的变革。

And so that's the sort of role that I'm playing at the moment supporting her but also trying to change how things are managed.

虽然尚处早期阶段，但已有人表现出急躁情绪——你听说过保守党议员缺乏耐心吗？已有批评称凯瑞·维德做得不够等等。你认为党内是否需要更多耐心来认识挑战的艰巨性？

And obviously it's early days but it already feels those though there are figures who are impatient. Have you ever heard of an impatient Tory MP? And there was some criticism saying, Kerry Vader is not doing enough and so forth. Do you think your party just needs to be a bit patient and realize the challenge do you understand

我完全理解这种情绪。我们面临的核心矛盾在于双重时间线的压力——改革党的崛起彻底改变了游戏规则。我们都明白国家问题需要根本性解决方案，而非表面功夫，这要求对国家运行机制进行深度重塑。

the I completely understand that. I mean, the challenge we have is that we are working on two different timelines. And that's because fundamentally the rise of reform has changed the game. I mean, I think we all feel that the solutions to the country's problems are not superficial ones. They have to be a very fundamental reshaping of how the country is run.

我们在执政期间就深刻认识到这点，这些经验也融入了我们的政治生涯。若未经充分思考就仓促执政，我们将成为糟糕的政府。但另一方面，政治格局已变：右翼阵营出现了高度敏捷的新势力，迫使我们同等应变。要平衡这两种节奏极其困难——我们既要让国家重回正轨，又必须快速行动。协调这两条时间线将极具挑战性，但这是我们必须要解决的课题。

And we understand that from our time in government, from our own experiences that we bring into our political careers. And so that requires very deep and considered thought, and we will be a rubbish government if we reelected without having done that thinking. But at the same time, the game has changed. There is now a very agile political force on the right that demands of us the same agility. And that's a very difficult blend to get right because fundamentally we really want the country to work again, but we to move fast and trying to make those two timelines work is gonna be very challenging, but it's something we've got to try and work out.

你提到了你在政府工作的经历，虽然我们的播客时间所剩不多，但我想我们还没聊遍你担任过的所有职务。不过我很想知道，是否有某个特别的高光时刻？当然，我们《旁观者》尤其记得你在《旁观者》出售期间参与文化事务的一些工作。

And you mentioned your time in government and we don't have too much time left in the podcast, but I suppose we haven't gone through every role you've had. But I wondered if there was a particular highlight or so forth. I mean, course we at The Spectator particularly remember some of your role in the culture brief around the time of The Spectator Sale.

是的，确实如此。当时我在数字、文化、媒体和体育部工作，媒体板块虽然很有趣，但奇怪的是我最喜欢的是电信相关的工作。在那段时期的后期，我参与了阻止阿联酋收购《每日电讯报》和《旁观者》的行动。我刚休完产假回来，就和蒂娜·斯托尔一起致力于修订法规，试图阻止外国政府掌控我们的新闻媒体。

Yes, well, indeed. So yeah, I was working in DCMS and whilst the media bit was fascinating. My favorite thing was working on the telecoms part of the brief weirdly. But in the latter part of that time, I was dealing with the attempt by the Emiratis to purchase the Telegraph and Spectator. So I'd just come back from maternity leave and was working with Tina Stoll on amendments to try and stop the ownership of our press by foreign governments.

所以没错，我在《旁观者》圈子里的小名气大概就是——我帮助《旁观者》避免了被外国资本收购。

So yes, I think my claim to fame in the spectator circles is that I helped to save the spectator from foreign ownership.

而如今的情况是...后来弗雷泽离开了你。

And where we are today. And then Fraser left you.

我完全理解，你知道的，他对这个话题充满激情，我也竭尽所能去处理这个问题，他的观点很有说服力，然后他就离开了。

I know exactly, I mean, you know, he was very sort of impassioned about this subject and I really wanted try and deal with that as best I could and he was very convincing and then off he went.

这比个人更重要。

It's bigger than a person.

当然，当然。这是原则问题。

Of course, of course. It's the principle.

我想最后再提两点。回到改革话题，我们即将迎来地方选举。人们一直在谈论改革联盟。我知道目前的说法是这不会发生。我的意思是，当你观察改革党、潜在的加拿大保守党、美国的特朗普时，你认为我们能从英国或其他国家的右翼力量中学到很多吗？

I suppose just two final things. To return to reform, we are heading to, obviously, local elections. People keep talking about a reformatory pact. I know the current line is that that's not gonna happen. Mean, when I suppose you're looking at the reform party, potentially the Canadian Conservatives, Trump and The US, do you think there is much to learn from other forces of the right, whether in The UK or abroad?

比如我知道凯米·巴德诺克对加拿大很感兴趣。

And I know for example, Kemi Badenoch is quite interested in Canada.

是的，她对加拿大非常感兴趣。确实有很多值得学习的地方。改革党在我的选区获得了28%的支持率，这显然是我关注的重点。凯米的观点是，在竞争激烈的政治环境中，必须比其他人做得更好，而不是坐在那里攻击改革党并试图贬低他们。

Yeah, she is very interested in Canada. There is a hell of a lot to learn. I mean, reform got 28% in my seat. So this is obviously something that I focus on. I mean, Kemi's view is that in a competitive political environment, have to be better than everybody else rather than sit there and attack reform and try and belittle them.

你知道，他们在表达引起公众共鸣的言论方面做得令人印象深刻，我们必须确保我们不仅说出公众共鸣的话，还要有清晰的战略来支持我们将如何改变这个国家。我想每个人都感受到这种紧迫感——国家目前处境不佳，我们必须成为提供可信解决方案的人。关于向其他保守党学习，在这个时代很大程度上是沟通方式的问题，尤其是加拿大保守党，他们在灵活沟通方面做了很多工作。但同时，我们也可以从特朗普那里学到一些东西，比如他与人交流时的直率态度和传递信息的方式。我们需要那种直截了当的表达，而不是有时可能在我们自己的沟通中过度使用的智力分析和复杂性。

You know, they're doing is impressive in terms of saying things that resonate with the public and we have to make sure that we say things not only that resonate with the public but also are backed up with a clear strategy for what we would do to change the country. I think everybody feels this sense of urgency that the country is not in the right place right now and we have to be the ones who have the credible solutions. I think in terms of the learnings from other conservative parties, it's very much about communications in this current age, particularly the Canadian conservatives where they've done a lot of agile communications. But also, I mean, there's stuff to learn from Trump about the sort of directness with which he speaks to people and the messages that he speaks to them with. And having that sort of straightness without the sort of intellectual analysis and complexity that sometimes I think we probably apply too much to our own communications.

冗长的政策文件。没错，完全正确。我认为我们必须找到一种方法，将我们真正想说的内容提炼成易于理解且能引起人们共鸣的信息。这可能是我们未来几个月乃至几年面临的挑战——如何将实质内容提炼成具有吸引力的表达。

Long policy papers. Exactly, exactly. I think we have to find a way of distilling what we actually want to say into a user friendly message that actually resonates with people. And I think that's probably our challenge for the next few months and years as to how we do that. How do you get something of substance and distill it into something that's compelling?

这就是我们的挑战所在。

That is our challenge, I think.

我最后一个问题是：你收到过的最糟糕的建议是什么？

And my final question is what is the worst advice you've been given?

是的，你知道，我一直在思考这个问题。我想到的是我收到过的最好建议。所以我也试着回想最糟糕的建议。你可以

Yeah, know, I've been thinking about this one. The thing that I think about is the best advice I've been given. So I'm trying to think about the worst. You can

保持积极态度，如果你

be positive if you

往坏处想的话，我会认为最糟糕的建议是——你知道，有时你不得不在各种政治晚宴上应酬，有人说'你需要剪头发'，我当时想'是啊，可能确实该剪头发了'——但这并非真正触动我的建议。如果允许我调整这个问题，我认为收到过最好的建议是：当我某段感情即将结束时，我在森斯伯瑞超市遇到一位收银员问我'今天过得怎样？'，我说'其实不太好，正处在人生十字路口不知何去何从'。那位女收银员抬头看着我说：'你明明知道该怎么选，只是没有倾听自己的内心'。我当时想，天啊，这个女人

thought mean, would I think the worst advice, well you know, sometimes you have to go round tables at various political dinners and somebody said you need to cut your hair' and I thought 'yeah, probably do need to cut my hair' but that wasn't the bit of advice that resonated. The best piece of advice I think I've ever been given, if I may change this question, is when I was sort of coming to the end of a particular relationship and I went to Sainsbury's and somebody said to me, how are you doing today?' And I said, oh, not so great today actually. I'm at a bit of a crossroads in my life and I don't know which way to turn and this checkout lady in Sainsbury's looked up for me and she said, you do know which way to turn, you're just not listening to yourself. And I thought, my God, this woman

解决了问题，不是吗？解决了

Sorted out, didn't it? Sorted out

她的人生！之后一切都改变了。所以我更愿意关注人们给予的积极建议而非消极的。感谢你参加播客节目，非常感谢你，凯蒂。

her life! Everything changed after that. So I'd rather focus on the positive advice that people have given me rather than the negative. Thank you for coming on the podcast Thank you very much, Katie.

大家好，我是安德鲁·多伊尔。10月20日在格拉斯哥 Pavilion剧院，我将为《旁观者》杂志采访皮尔斯·摩根。在这场关于他的新书《觉醒已死》的独家无删节对话中，我们将探讨常识回归的可能性，以及文化浪潮在政治、媒体和日常生活中如何转变。活动时间是10月20日晚7:30，地点格拉斯哥Pavilion剧院。购票请访问spectator.co.uk/wokeisdead。

Hello. I'm Andrew Doyle, and on the October 20 at the Pavilion Theatre in Glasgow, I'm going to be interviewing Piers Morgan for The Spectator. In this exclusive and unfiltered conversation about his new book, Woke is Dead, we're gonna be discussing what a return to common sense might look like and how the cultural tide is shifting across politics, the media, and everyday life. That's gonna be 07:30PM, October 20, Pavilion Theatre Glasgow. So if you want tickets, just go to spectator.co.uk/wokeisdead.

届时见。

See you there.