WOIConversations - 第二季 - 第2集 - 与Wim Vanhaverbeke探讨开放式创新：战略、规模与Chesbrough的遗产

欢迎来到《世界开放创新对话》的下一期节目。我是马塞尔·博格斯，埃因霍温理工大学开放与协作创新专业的教授。很高兴能与我们的嘉宾维姆·范哈弗贝克一起主持本期节目。维姆，欢迎来到我们的播客，或许你可以简单介绍一下自己。

Welcome to this next episode of the World Open Innovation Conversations. My name is Marcel Boghers, and I'm a professor of Open and Collaborative Innovation at Eindhoven University of Technology. And happy to be your host here with our guest, Wim van Haverbeekke. Welcome Wim to our podcast, maybe you can just briefly introduce yourself.

好的，非常简短。我是罗纳德·雷比克肖，安特卫普大学数字战略与转型专业的教授。是的，非常高兴能来到这里。

Yeah. Very short. I'm I'm Ronald Rebikersho, professor digital strategy and transformation at the University of Antwerp. And, yeah. So I'm very happy to be here.

而且，如果我能回答一些问题，我很乐意效劳。

And, if I can answer some questions, I'm happy to do so.

好的，太棒了。很高兴你能来。当然，我们认识已经有一段时间了，也有过多次交谈，但现在我觉得能有机会与我们的社区分享这些真是太好了。

Okay. Great. Great. It's great to have you. Of course, we've known each other for quite some time and have had many conversations, but now I think it's nice to have this opportunity and share it with the rest of our community.

所以有几件事我想和你讨论。回顾一下开放创新的概念，这当然是一个我们共同感兴趣的话题。同时也谈谈一些即将到来的发展以及这个领域的未来。但让我们从头开始。开放创新作为一个研究领域，这些年来已经取得了相当大的发展。

So there are a few things I wanted to discuss with you. Kind of looking back at the concept of open innovation, which is of course a topic that really connects our interest. Also talk a little bit about some of the upcoming developments and the future of the field as well. But let's start at the beginning. So open innovation has been a research area that has developed quite a bit over the years.

也许我们可以从你解释一下什么是开放创新开始？你会如何定义它？以及为什么你认为它已经成为商业和学术界如此有影响力的概念？

Maybe we can start out by you explaining a little bit what is open innovation for you? How would you define it? And why do you think it has become such an influential concept in both business and academia?

嗯，这是两个不同的问题，对吧？你知道我不太喜欢定义，因为你永远无法用定义来捕捉像开放创新这样的大现象。2006年我们和亨利在第一本研究开放创新的学术书籍中尝试过。在那里我们提到，它基本上是关于知识的流入和流出，以加速你的创新，另一方面则是将你不需要的创新货币化。这就是最初的定义。

Well, these are two different questions, right? So you know I'm not very fond of definitions because you never can capture big phenomenon like open innovation in definition. We did it in 2006 with Henry in the first academic book researching open innovation. And that there we mentioned that it was basically about inflows and outflows of knowledge to accelerate your and on the other hand, monetize literacy on innovation you don't need. So that was the original definition.

然后在2014年，你和亨利一起对它进行了一些重新定义，对吧？也就是引入这种非特殊的方式来实现组织间的知识流动。所以对我来说，可以说这仍然是定义，对吧？而且我认为它至今仍然有效。

And then later on in 2014, you have been together with Henry redefining it a little bit. Right? So making it a little bit also bringing in this non peculiar way of of having knowledge flows between organizations. So this is for me, let's say, still the definition, right? And I think it's still it's still valid.

但你们稍后会明白，因为我们还将讨论开放创新的一些讨论和不足之处。我想我可能不会给你们另一个定义，但可能会给你们一个任务，去逐步改变那个定义。并不是说过去不正确，而是我认为现实在变化，创新在变化，也许我们也必须改变开放创新本身。好吗？

But you will see later on because we we gonna have some also about we also gonna talk about discussions and about shortcomings in open innovation. I think we'll give you maybe another I will not give you another definition, but I will probably give you a mission to change that that that definition over time. Not that in the past that was not correct, but I think the reality is changing or innovation is changing, and maybe we also have to change open innovation as such. Okay?

好的。好的。

Okay. Okay.

第二个问题是，为什么它会成为如此重大的现象？

Second question was, why it's so such a, such a big phenomenon?

确实。是的。

Exactly. Yeah.

它是最早分析——姑且称之为异常现象——的案例之一，针对当时大公司典型的创新流程。在战后时期，许多公司都进行大量内部研发，这在当时很流行，而且对许多公司来说这样做可能非常幸运。但与此同时，任何运作的系统也都有其弊端。亨利一直关注大公司无法解决的若干问题。

It was one of the very first ones to analyze, let's say, anomalies, if I can call it that way, into the typical open in the typical innovation process of large companies at that time, right? So in the postwar era, we had a lot of companies doing a lot of internal r and d. That was fashionable at the time, but and it was probably very, very fortunate to do so for many companies. But at the same time, every system that works also has its its its its drawbacks. And Henry has been focusing on a number of things that large companies could not manage.

比如，我想到大公司在运作时，那些衍生企业——我们姑且这么称呼——经过一段时间后反而比母公司更具价值。对吧？这该如何解释？如何解释小型初创公司和大学能拥有比大公司更好的技术？

I think, for instance, about the fact that it's working in large companies and that that that that the the ventures that were still the spin offs, let's call it that way, valid were valid after a long time. After some time, they were more valuable, let's say, than the mother company itself. Right? So how do you explain that? How do you how do you explain that small start up companies and universities are having better technologies than large companies?

对吧？难道你还能忽视大学和小公司吗？当时的情况通常是，企业无法仅从内部招聘到最优秀的人才，不得不向外寻找，因为公司外部存在着丰富的知识资源。他们必须利用这些外部知识。因此，这形成了一场广泛的运动。

Right? And can you still neglect universities and small companies? And then that was typically at the time that people could not hire the best people in internally inside the company, but had to look for let's say, because there was so there was an abundance of of knowledge outside the company. They had to tap into that into that knowledge external to the company. And so, that was a broad movement.

这不仅仅是开放式创新。这只是知识分散的方式。知识也在爆炸式增长，不仅限于美国，后来欧洲、中国、拉丁美洲等地也是如此。

That's not only open innovation. It's just the way that knowledge was dispersed. Knowledge was, exploding also. It's not it's not only in I it was not only in The United States. It was also in Europe, later on in China, in Latin America, so on.

可以说，过去四十年间，全球知识生成与创造的规模呈爆炸式增长。企业无法将所有人才都招致麾下，因此必须通过不同方式获取这些资源。正如亨利二十年来一直阐述的，知识领域存在诸多经济及更广泛的趋势，这些趋势为企业发展开放式创新战略提供了依据。

So the world is knowledge generation and knowledge creation was exploding, let us say, the last forty years. And, yeah, companies cannot cannot hire, cannot cannot hoard it into the company. That's and then you have to work with a different way of getting access to it. So there are a number of and Henry has been explaining that twenty years already. There's a number of economic and, let's say, broader trends in knowledge and that are, yeah, giving giving ammunition, let's say, for companies to develop open innovation as a strategy.

亨利一直在推动这一理念，主张企业应当开放其创新知识搜索。事实也的确如此。这不仅是美国的重大现象，在欧洲等地同样显著。虽然亨利最初从大企业着手，但2017年我已将其应用于中小企业——

And so and and Henry has been developing that, showing that companies should open up should open up their their search for open for innovation knowledge. So and, yeah, that that's what they did. And so this is this was this was really a big phenomenon not only in The United States, also in in Europe and so on. And then we have seen, okay, Henry started from large companies, but I have been doing it for small companies in 2017 in my

确实如此。

Yeah. Exactly.

中小企业。人们一直聚焦于众包模式。开放式创新形式多样，其美妙之处在于不仅大企业在实践，小型企业同样在推进。当然还有大学、研究实验室等互补性组织，它们与通常作为开放式创新受益者的大企业形成互补。

SMEs. All the people have been focusing on crowd sourcing. You have different types of open innovation. And so it's not only so I think the beauty about the open innovation community is that not only large companies are doing Open Innovation, but also smaller firms are doing it. Of course, you have this kind of complementary organization like universities, research labs, and so forth, that are really or complementary to, let's say, the the benefactors of open innovation, which were usually large companies.

但我想说，开放式创新之所以盛行，诚然与社会变革、知识创造方式革新、创新管理演变有关，但同样因为亨利为其正名。

But so I think open innovation is is not of course, it's well, and then let let's be honest. It's not only because society has been changing. The way we create knowledge has been changing. The way, innovation management has been changing. It's also because Henry, of course, has been, giving it a name.

一旦你能够——我早期从亨利那里学到这一点——当你为管理者提供一个框架时，主要是这个框架，他们需要构思如何引入外部信息和知识，这样他们就能更容易地向董事会或高层管理层展示：看，这就是我们在做的。明白吗？一旦你将其纳入框架，就很容易明确展示你们的基本做法及其优势。我认为亨利工作的最大价值不仅在于学术意义，更在于他为许多企业出色地阐释并明确了他们已在尝试的做法，并加速了他们对外部知识的探索。

And once you can and I learned that from Henry early on. Once you give it once you can give managers an an a framework, it's mainly a framework, how they have to conceive to ex to to to bring in, let's say, or to use external information and external knowledge, then, it's also much easier for them to go to their board, to go to their top management and say, look, that's what we are doing. You see? And once you have once you have it in a framework, then it's easy to make it explicit and to show what you're basically doing and what are the advantages. And that's, I think, the big advantage from from what Henry has been doing is not only academically interesting, but also he did a great job for many companies explaining and making explicit what they already were doing or tried to do and, giving them an acceleration into into looking for external knowledge.

这算回答你的问题了吗？

Is that an answer on your question?

是的，是的。我觉得你基本上...我是说，你工作中让我普遍感兴趣的一点是你也关注小企业对吧？中小型企业、小微企业等。正如你所说且我同意，开放创新本质上也是一个框架，对吧？我认为这对学术界和实践者都很有用。

Yes, yes. I think you basically I mean, one of the things you what I find interesting about your work in general is that you also focus on the small companies, right? Small, medium sized companies, SMEs and so on. So and as you say, and I agree, I think also open innovation is very much a framework, right? That's I think useful for both academics and for practitioners.

正是如此。

Exactly.

如果从这个角度看，或许值得反思一下大企业与小公司的差异，你在这方面也做了不少研究。特别是在开放创新的实际落地层面，你观察到哪些关键差异？或者说小企业在依托你阐述的这个开放创新框架时，面临哪些领域特有的挑战？

And if you look it from that perspective, maybe it's interesting to reflect a little bit on, for example, the difference between large and small companies, and you've done also quite a bit of work on that. So especially in terms of sort of the practical implementation of open innovation, what are some of the the key differences that you see? Or what are maybe the key domain, you know, specific challenges for smaller companies to to, you know, build on this open innovation framework as you explained it?

好的，我尽量简短回答，因为如果真要详细说的话——

Yeah. So to be very trying to be short in that because if you if you really want the long answer

就得去读你的著作了。

have to read your work.

不，不。长话短说，我认为我们在亨利2003年和2006年的著作中看到的，通常适用于大公司。这些大公司至少都有内部架构（好的公司确实如此），对吧？

No. No. To to to to make a long answer short, I think, what we have seen in the books of Henry in 2003 and 2006 is typically for larger companies. And the larger companies have an internal structure, at least the good ones. Right?

所以这些公司...是的。要妥善管理开放式创新，它们必须拥有严格的内部架构来吸收外部技术，并提取价值等等。而小公司——至少我这里指的是非高科技企业，因为那些深度科技或高科技公司懂得游戏规则，它们有风投支持。风投会帮助它们销售技术或与大公司合作。

So the those companies that Yeah. To manage open innovation properly, they they have the strict internal structure to absorb this external technology and to to to extract the value and all that stuff. And in small companies, and at the at least here, I'm talking about, let's say, not a high-tech because the the the deep tech companies or the high-tech comp or or they know how to play that game. They are backed by VCs. VCs help them in selling their technologies or or collaborating, let's say, with bigger companies.

那是另一回事。我现在说的是欧美90%的小企业，情况完全不同——它们根本没有内部架构。一切成败都系于创业者一人。所以我们本质上是在讨论创业。

So that's a different game. So I hear talking about the 90% of the of the small firms that we have in Europe or in America. That's a completely different game because there, there's no internal structure. Everything starts and fails or fails with the the entrepreneur itself. So here we are basically in entrepreneurship.

这就是我获得的核心洞见：由于缺乏架构，缺乏内部创新路径，你只能从创业入手。第二点收获是：这家公司甚至不知道自己正在实践开放式创新，他们只是为了生存，只是为了获得新的竞争优势。所以这本质上是战略问题。

And that was that was the main insights I got that because there is no structure, because there is no internal way of innovation that you have to start with entrepreneurship. And the second thing I I I learned from this company is this, basically, they even didn't know that they were working with open innovation or working as an open innovation exemplar. They they just wanted to survive. They just wanted to have a new competitive advantage. So it was about strategy.

既然他们内部没有足够的知识储备，就必须快速寻求外部资源——因为他们内部既没有知识储备，也没有创新成果，可以说从第一天起就不得不向外看。他们几乎是被迫以开放式创新方式运作，但具体做法却截然不同。

And then since they don't have any internal or not they don't have the right internal knowledge, they have to go externally very quickly because they don't have the right the right knowledge. They don't have the right innovations internally, so they have to look externally, let's say, from day one. And they are almost obliged to work in an open innovation fashion. But the way they do it is completely different. Yeah.

没错。推动整个进程的企业家，其个人关系网络就是前进的动力。这完全建立在人际关系的基砄上，是另一套玩法。就连知识产权问题也得重新定义——小企业的开放式创新实践与大企业截然不同，和亨利教授教我们的那套完全两样。

Yeah. Entrepreneur who pushes the whole process is his personal network that helps them to move on. It's it's based on inter interpersonal relationships. So it's a complete different game. And also, for instance, like IP, basically you had to reinvent open innovation because what happens in these small firms is different than what happens in the large firms like Henry has been teaching us.

这一点后来在INSPIRE等更大规模的研究中得到了证实。

And that has been confirmed later on with bigger studies like in Inspire.

确实如此，确实如此。我觉得这很有趣，正如你所描述的，某种程度上公司越小，开放式创新的潜力就越大，几乎可以说因为外部有更多聪明人，而你规模越小。确实。不，不，但同时那些能促进这一过程的内部结构和流程却不够成熟，我的意思是，这与开放合作是完全不同的概念。正如你所说，你的部分研究确实展现了这一点，所以我觉得这非常有意思。

Exactly, exactly. I think it's interesting because as you described, in a way the smaller the company had the larger the potential of open innovation, almost like literally because there are more smart people out there the smaller you are. Exactly. No, no, but whereas at the same time sort of the internal structures and the processes that would facilitate that process, they are less developed or in, I mean, it's a very different concept to work with openness. Think that's, as you say, some of your work has really showed it, so I think that's been very interesting.

那么即使冒着你会回答'视情况而定'的风险，我还是想请教几个问题，关于开放式创新的成功要素和可能的陷阱。不过或许我可以更具体些，因为你已经谈到了大企业、小企业等不同情况。我特别好奇的是，你多年来一直研究开放式创新，能否不仅从宏观角度，更具体地反思组织在实施开放式创新时的主要陷阱是什么？以及这些陷阱如何随时间演变？尤其是与10年、20年前相比，现在出现了哪些不同类型的陷阱？

So then at the risk of your answer gonna be, you know, it depends, I still want to ask a little bit of questions, about, you know, in general about success factors and maybe pitfalls of open innovation. But maybe I can specify it a little bit because of course you've been talking about it, large firms, small firms and so on. Maybe what I'm specifically curious about is that you have been working on open innovation for all those years. Can you reflect maybe a little bit more on, not just in general, what especially the main pitfalls are for organizations to implement open innovation, but maybe how that has changed over time, and in particular, what are maybe currently different types of pitfalls than there used to be maybe ten, twenty years ago?

是的，这是个更难回答的问题。对吧？因为如果关注趋势，我认为我们学术界没有明确聚焦这二十年间的变迁。虽然亨利一直在研究，但作为学术共同体，我们对形势变化的关注还不够充分。

Yeah. This is a more difficult question. Right? Because if you focus on the trends, I think we we didn't focus explicitly on the twenty years and the shifts in during these twenty years. Although Henry has been doing an But I think as a community, we didn't focus enough on how, the situation has been changed.

我认为最近五六年发生了重大变化，企业管理者们可能比我们学者更敏锐地察觉到了这些变化。

And I think in the last few years, let's say, five, six years, we have seen major changes, and we I think in the manage managers are probably more aware of that than than we do as academics.

是的，确实如此。

Yeah. That's right.

举几个例子吧。在亨利2003年和2006年著书时，那种用于跨源搜寻的平台——比如在线领域和激励措施——很大程度上还是基于网站的形态。是基于互联网的网站平台，主要通过提案请求机制让人响应。

To give you a few examples. Right? So at the time that Henry was writing his books in 2003 and 2006, having these kind of platforms for finding so to do some cross sourcing, like in the online segment and in incentive, that was very much an an an how I would call it, an a website based thing. Right? So an Internet based, know, the website, but an Internet based an Internet based platform, where you just have request for proposals and where people react on that.

如今我发现，虽然这种模式可能仍然有效，但借助AI技术——比如通过算法实现近乎自动化的匹配——人们能构建完全不同的商业模式来对接大企业与小公司。不再需要广播式发布和筛选大量无价值提案，现在可以精准投放，真正找到全球范围内可能就10到30个掌握关键知识的人。你看，这个细节就展示了AI如何从根本上改变开放式创新平台的工作模式。这只是个小例子，我认为我们需要关注AI和各种新型匹配方式——那些连接知识需求方与供给方的新途径——这很可能彻底改变现有的工作方式。

Today, I see that I might well, this model may still work, but I see with AI, for instance, if you have no algorithms that where you have the matching almost automatically done with AI. And so where people can come up with complete different business models to match a big company with a small company, and where instead of broadcasting and having all this work with old with too many proposals that are not worth anything, now you can narrow cast it, and you can really look for ten ten ten 20 people, maybe 30 people of the world that have the right knowledge. So you see so this is a small detail, see, showing how AI is basic probably is changing the business models for working with platforms on open innovation. So that's only a small example. I I think we have to look at how probably AI and all these ways of matching, right, of new ways of matching people that are looking for knowledge and people that have knowledge, it's probably a complete different way of doing things.

这是另一个话题，但完全不同的主题。一方面，我会说，总结一下，我们拥有二十年前没有的新技术，这些技术让我们能以不同于以往的方式开展开放式创新。比如匹配，患者治疗就是关于匹配的。匹配方式很可能会发生巨大变化。这是一点。

The the another topic, but that's a complete different topic. So on the one hand, I will say, okay, just summarizing on the one hand, I will say, we have new technologies that we didn't have twenty years ago that allow us to work on open innovation, work with open innovation in a different way than before. So matching for instance, the patient is about matching. Matching for instance is is is probably gonna change probably dramatically. That's one thing.

我们在约会软件中见过这种变化，比如优步（Uber），也见于爱彼迎（Airbnb）。B2B平台同样如此，开放式创新平台很可能也会发生巨变。明白吗？

We have seen that in dating. We have seen that, for instance, in in Uber. We have seen that in Airbnb. So but also in b to b platforms, probably also platforms for open innovation will change dramatically. Okay?

这是第一点。第二点更个人化，需要你带着保留态度看待——因为我在这个方向工作，所以可能有些主观。我认为二十年前开放式创新被定义为企业的创新方式，对吧？当时是封闭式创新与开放式创新之争。

So that's one thing. Second, I and that's something which is more personal, and so you have to take it with with some it's a little bit subjective because I'm working in that direction, so not not everybody should follow me there. I think open innovation has been defined twenty years ago as a way of innovating for companies. Right? So it was closed innovation versus open innovation.

开放式创新曾完全围绕新产品开发，你有产品，有创新漏斗，核心就是开发。我在企业观察到但学术界尚未关注的是——我最近多次呼吁这个观点——企业不再以'我要新创新'为起点。我看到很多管理者把创新视为成本问题，而谈到成本他们就不乐意。他们是从战略入手的。

Open innovation was all about new product development, and you had the product, you have the funnel, the innovation funnel, and it was all about development. One thing I see in companies, I don't see that yet in the academic world, and I have been advocating that a few times lately, is that companies are not starting with, okay, I want a new innovation. You you I I see a lot of managers seeing innovation as a cost issue. And if you talk about cost issues, they don't like it. But they start with a strategy.

他们首先考虑'我们需要新的竞争优势'。世界变化太快，必须采用新的竞争方式。比如需要新商业模式或新工作方式，不一定是新产品——因为许多产品已服务化，服务本身也平台化了。我们的竞争方式完全不同了。

They start with, okay, we need a new competitive advantage. The world is changing fast, so we need a new way of competing. And, yes, we have to go for, for instance, new business model or a new way of working. It's not necessarily a new product because a lot of products have been serviced and served it and even services has been becoming platforms and so on. So the way the way we compete is completely different.

事实上我们持续变化，或者说世界持续变化，企业必须通过创新获得新的战略竞争优势，或新的战略举措。所以我主张：从战略开始，从战略创新开始，从商业模式创新开始，再看开放式创新如何与之契合。

And in in the fact that we are changing continuously, or that the world is changing continuously for firms have to firms have to innovate in order to have a new strategic competitor new competitive advantage Yeah. Or new strategic initiative. And so I would advocate, let's start on time let's start with strategy. Let's start with strategic innovation. Let's start with business model innovation, and then see how open innovation fits into that.

这意味着我们不必从开放式创新本身启动。或许应该从战略出发，由战略牵引出开放式创新——因为多数企业不具备直接切入的能力。以人工智能为例，从这个角度就能看出开放式创新如何因与战略的关联而改变。

And so that means we don't have to start with open innovation as such. We probably have to start with strategy. And from strategy, we pull in open open innovation because most companies don't have these competencies to move in. Think about, for instance, about AI. And then from there, you we can see how open innovation has been changing because of this link with strategy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我看到的一大变化是，一旦将其与战略挂钩，突然间你就会发现巨大的可能性，或者说拓宽开放式创新相关性的机会。如果直白地说，我会说，好吧。过去，开放式创新主要围绕通过漏斗模式开发新产品或新服务展开。我们至今仍习惯于这种思维模式。

One big change I see there is that if you link it to strategy, all of a sudden, you see then big possibilities, or let's say, possibilities to broaden the relevance of open innovation. If I put it black and white, right, I will say, okay. Previously, open innovation was all about creating a new product or creating a new service, right, through the funnel. Right? And and and we still think in that this kind of terms.

但如果你观察当今企业如何寻求竞争优势，会发现方式更加间接。在某些案例中，企业内部的创新漏斗机制本身已不再必要。我举个实例——嗯，你可能已经知道天空能源。

But if you look nowadays, how companies are, trying to get a competitive advantage, it's much more indirect. And in some cases, you see that innovation, the innovation funnel as such in the company is no longer necessary. I give you one example, and I like to come back on that one. Mhmm. You already may may know Sky Energy.

天空能源是由风险投资家和荷兰皇家航空共同创立的小公司。早在2009年，荷航就确立了成为可持续发展企业的目标。他们需要可持续航空燃料，但当时既无供应也无需求。

Sky Energy is a small firm created by venture capitalist and and and KLM. And KLM who had to be KLM had the purpose had the the objective in 2009 already to become a sustainable company. And so they wanted to have sustainable aviation fuel. So sustainable aviation fuel, there was no supply because there was no demand. No.

他们试图通过保障供应来确保需求，但荷航根本无意涉足石油行业——即便是可持续石油业务。他们的核心始终是航空业。

They wanted to they wanted to generate supply to have a guarantee so because they had guaranteed demand. But you see already, KLM has no intention whatsoever to move into the oil business. That's in the sustainable oil business. That's not their business. They are in aviation.

他们专注航空业务对吧？但关键在于：能否通过其他领域的创新来实现战略目标？

They are in airline business. Right? Yeah. And they stick into that business. But the question is, can you generate innovation elsewhere in order to get your strategic objective done, right, in in order to implement your strategic objective?

答案是肯定的。这不是开发新产品，而是荷航为实现战略目标，在其他领域推动大规模开放式创新的战略动机。我观察到越来越多这类案例——大多数可持续发展案例都是如此。比如你们与亨利合作的纸瓶项目，正是企业追求可持续发展的例证。

And the answer is yes. So here we have not a new product that you develop, right, but you have an incentive, a strategic incentive of KLM to generate a massive open innovation or a massive innovation elsewhere because you want your you want to implement your strategic objective. And I see more and more of these cases, right, all this is most of the sustainability cases are like that. Companies want to be sustainable. They your own case, for instance, with that you worked with Henry about the the the paper the paper bottle

是的，嘉士伯。没错。

of the Yeah. Carlsberg. Yeah.

嘉士伯。是的。那个例子中，嘉士伯一直与合作伙伴共同关注实施层面，对吧。所以这是个开放式创新的案例。但很快就能看到嘉士伯退出，因为它不想商业化。

Carlsberg. Yeah. The example there, Carlsberg has been focusing a little bit on the implementation, right, together with partners. So there was a open innovation case. But see very quickly that Carlsberg pulls out because it doesn't want to commercialize.

这是个有趣的观点。我们一直在学习，当你进行开放式创新或参与开放式创新赞助时，你终将实现商业化。而按照这种新思维方式，比如与KLM和嘉士伯的合作中，你并不想商业化，因为这并非你的主业。嘉士伯的主业是酿造啤酒。因此你需要确立一个新原则——当创新成果出现时，必须确保有人愿意负责该技术的商业化和应用开发。

And that's an interesting point. We always have been learning, okay, you do open innovation or you engage in open innovation benefactor, and you will commercialize it. And in this new way of thinking, right, so with with KLM, for instance, and with Carlsberg, you don't want to commercialize it because it's not your business. Carlsberg is not in Carlsberg is in Brea Brewing. So you have to you have a new imperative that is that once the innovation is there, you have to make sure that somebody wants to take care of the commercialization and the exploitation of that of that, of that technology.

这使得情况变得更加复杂。但美妙之处在于，通过这种方式，你自然就与生态系统思维建立了联系。确实如此。生态系统概念非常流行，我从中看到了极具启发性的生态系统思维，同时也看到如何运用开放式创新来革新我们的认知——或者说，革新我们对生态系统内创新或创新管理的思考方式。

And so it becomes much more complex. And the beauty of it is that by doing this, you automatically have link to ecosystem thinking. Exactly. An ecosystem that is very fashionable, so I see there a very interesting ecosystem thinking, but also a way of using open innovation to improve our thinking or let me say it differently, to improve our thinking about innovation in or innovation management in ecosystems.

是的，我非常认同你的观点。这确实展现了创新尤其是开放式创新的复杂性。这些案例也说明了：你可能最初由外向内推进，最终却由内向外延伸，所有环节相互关联。正如你提到的，当你转向生态系统视角和生态系统思维时，这些要素就会在更复杂的场景中自然融合。

Yeah. No, I mean, I think I couldn't agree more. And I think you're right. I mean, it's really showing also the complexity of innovation in general, and open innovation particular. I think those examples also say something about, you know, how maybe you start with outside in and then you end up with inside out and it's all connected, and this is when you move to the ecosystem perspective and ecosystem thinking as you mentioned it, that sort of inherently combines all these things in a kind of more complex setting.

我认为这非常有意思。你本质上是在论证这正是该领域的发展方向。一方面，这揭示了实施开放式创新的机遇与陷阱；另一方面，也指引研究者思考该领域的未来走向——未来哪些研究方向会更有价值？这本身就是个很有见地的观察。

So I think, I mean, that's very interesting. And you're basically arguing that this is also where the field is moving. So on the one hand, you know, this says something about, okay, where are the opportunities and the pitfalls for implementing open innovation? But also says something about, okay, where is this field going for the fellow researchers to think about, okay, where are the interesting studies going to be in the future? And I think that's in itself a good observation.

你这里还提到：虽然一方面我们看到开放式创新的相关性可能受到挑战——正如你所述，整个局面正变得愈发复杂；但另一方面，机遇恰恰在于如何将开放式创新与其他现象、其他领域相连接。这种整合——无论是与生态系统理论、战略管理还是更广泛领域的结合——正是我从你论述中领悟到的关键：这是推动我们研究领域发展、发现跨领域价值连接的契机。非常具有启发性。或许我们可以转向本期播客计划讨论的另一个话题了。

And also here you say that the because on the one hand, I think you observe that, you know, there's maybe you can start to challenge, I think that's what you're saying, even the relevance of open innovation, because it's all becoming more complex and so on, the whole story you tell. But at the same time, I think it's also here you say that this is exactly where the opportunity lies, because it's about how do you connect open innovation to other phenomena, to other fields, and that integration, you know, whether it's ecosystem, literature, or strategic management, or maybe even in broader domains. That's I think the lesson I get from your argument here, that this is the opportunity to actually, you know, move there with our research field and see where those connections lie to actually create more value in other domains as well. So I think that's very inspiring. Maybe then I want to move to another part that we wanted to talk about here in this podcast.

你多次提到亨利，谈到了2003年的原著及其影响，以及我们二十多年来对这一领域的专注。你还分享了一些即将到来的发展动态，特别是明年。因为我们的共同好友兼同事亨利·切萨布鲁夫——开放创新之父——将迎来七十岁诞辰，我相信他和家人会隆重庆祝，学术界也会参与其中，而你也将在其中发挥作用。我想请问你是否能分享更多关于明年会议、特刊等活动的背景信息？或许你还能提供一些具体细节供大家参考。关于这方面，你能分享些什么？

You talked a lot about, you mentioned Henry several times, and you know, the legacy and the original book in 2,003 and all those more than twenty years that we have been focusing on this now. Because you recently also shared some news about some, you know, coming developments, in particular next year. Because Henry Chesbrough, our common friend and colleague and well known as the father of open innovation, will have his seventieth birthday, which will be celebrated, I'm sure in style by himself and his family, but also from the academic community, and you also play a role in that. I wanted to ask if you can share some more background of what's going to happen next year in terms of, you know, conferences and special issues, and maybe you can share some concrete details for people to look at as well. But what can you share about this?

是的，我很乐意分享这个消息。说实话，亨利撰写了多部杰出著作，在开放创新领域帮助了许多企业，这是他做出的卓越贡献。二十多年来，他一直在构建这个学术共同体，而我们正是这一努力的成果，对吧？

Yeah, so I'm happy to share this news. So let's be honest, Henry has been writing great books, have been have been helping a lot of companies in open innovation, also, and that's a very nice thing that he did. He's he also was building the community for more than twenty years now. And we product of that. Right?

正是由于这个共同体的存在。我们认为亨利做出了巨大贡献，明年他必将成为焦点。说到这里，乔尔·韦斯特——我们得承认——

So because of the community. Yeah. So and and, yeah, because of that, we we think Henry has been doing a great job. He becomes he will be certainty next year. And because of that, Joel West let's be honest.

乔尔一直在统筹这一切。我们确实应该感谢他的辛勤付出。是他提出了为亨利七十岁诞辰筹备特刊的构想，并完成了两份特刊提案的全部准备工作。

Joel has been, organizing all this. So the we should basically thank Joel for all the hard work. But Joel has been had the the the idea to have a fetch drift for Henry's seventieth birthday. Right? So and the he did all the work to prop to make two proposals for a special issue.

第一份特刊将由《产业与公司变革》期刊出版，题为《拓展组织与学科边界：致敬亨利·切萨布鲁夫的贡献》，预计将收录更多学术性强、方法严谨的研究成果。另一份则由《管理评论》期刊推出。

First one, the first one is in industrial and corporate change, and it's called expanding organizational and disciplinary boundaries, contributions in honor of Henry Chasbrough, so that's one way. And we expect in the industrial and corporate change that there's going to be more, let's say, academic work, also methodological, stringent work. Right? So okay. And then we have management review.

没错，这就是第二份特刊，主题是《企业开放性与产业动态》。更多详情可访问chesborough2026.com网站。希望稍后能在播客中再次提及这个网址，作为字幕方便听众链接查看。

Right? So this that's the second special issue, where we have a special issue on firm openness and industry dynamics. You can read more on the chesborough2026.com. That's a is it not is that's a website I think. I I hope you can also deliver that later on in the podcast, right, so as a as a as a subtitle so that people can link to it.

关于这两份特刊，筹备工作将耗时较长。首先请注意查看投稿截止日期——明年四月我们将在罗马举办学术会议，入选论文的作者将向学界展示研究成果。会议地点是罗马的卢斯。

But those two special issues, so we go what we're gonna do is basically how that gonna take time. But the first thing we want to do, so please please have a look at when the deadlines are, but for for submissions and then but in in April next year, we're gonna have an a conference where these two where people that or at least selected to write, so we'll have their paper presented to to the community, let's say. And they will be yeah. So there will be a a conference in Lewes, right, in Rome in April year. Rome.

是的。我们将对每篇论文进行深入讨论，看看如何进一步改进，以确保为这两个特刊准备充足的稿件。这就是我们的工作方式。而乔尔在这方面做得非常出色。

Yep. And there we're gonna have a a lengthy discussion, right, for each paper with yeah. Seeing how the paper can still be improved in order to make sure that we have sufficient papers for the two special issues. So that that's the way we want to work. And, Joel has been doing a a wonderful work here.

他一直在筹备这两个特刊。我们还与一个团队共同筹备明年四月的会议。如果大家感兴趣，请向这些特刊投稿。我认为在筛选合适论文方面会有大量工作要做。

So he has been preparing the two special issues. He we also have been preparing with a group. We have been preparing the the conference in for next year in April. So if you're interested, if people are interested, so please submit a paper to one of these special issues. We're gonna have a lot of work, I think, on selecting the the right papers.

如果您的论文被选中，欢迎您来罗马参会。是的，明年在罗马。

And, yeah, if you're selected, then please be invited in in Rome. Right? So next year in Rome.

好的，太棒了。我已经开始期待了，相信对于该领域的许多学者来说，向这些特刊投稿会非常有意思。非常感谢您分享这些细节。正如您所说，更多信息请访问chessroad2026.com对吧？

Okay, excellent. Yeah, now looking forward to that already and I think it's going to be very interesting for many scholars of course in the domain to consider submitting to either of those special issues. So definitely looking forward to that. So thanks for sharing some of those details. And as you say, chessroad2026.com, I think it is, right, for more information.

我们也可以在播客描述中分享这个链接。

Yeah. But we can also share it in the podcast description.

请分享正确的链接。应该是'26年，不是

Please share the right link. I think it's '26, not

'20年。我见过那个网站，不过我们会再确认。当然，这个信息在各社交媒体渠道上也很容易找到。感谢您的分享。

'20 I've it. I've seen the website, but yeah, we'll check it. And of course, it's also widely available on the various social media channels. So I think that people should be able to find it. So thanks for sharing that.

或许我认为在这里结束播客会很好，可以谈谈你对亨利工作的个人感想，或者分享一些与他共事的趣闻轶事。但请记住这些内容会被公开，所以要保持得体。

Maybe I think it's nice to conclude the podcast here with maybe some of your personal reflections about also Henry's work, or maybe you have some juicy anecdotes to share of how you work with him. But keep in mind that this is going to be shared, so it has to be decent and we have to make it public.

当然当然。不，我想说的是，我现在认识亨利，还有你马塞尔，我们认识亨利已经很久了。他不仅是位杰出的学者，更是个非常好的人。尽管他在创新管理领域开创了重要方向，却始终保持谦逊。

Yeah, sure, sure. No, no, no. What I want to say, I know Henry now and you also Marcel, we know Henry already for a very long time, and it's not great a great scholar, right, but it's also a very nice person. So the way he he still although he has a yeah, he has generated a major direction or a major trend in in innovation management. He stays very humble.

他对人非常开放，总是尽量为每个人抽出时间。最可贵的是，他不仅是杰出学者，更拥有令人如沐春风的人格魅力。我从与他的合作中受益匪浅，许多人都是如此。

He is very open to people. He tries to make time for for everybody. And so it's not not and the the beauty of all this is, okay, it's not a not a great scholar. It's also a very nice personality or very nice person. And I I benefited from the the way I could work with him and and also, and other people, many many people benefited.

我认为这对我们也是个启示：你可以是杰出学者，但必须保持谦逊，必须帮助他人。就像我临近退休时感悟到的，学术生涯前十年收获很多，但随着年龄增长，更要回馈学界。

And I think that is also a lesson for us. You can be a great scholar, but you also have to stay humble. You also have to help other people. And know that I always almost go on on retirement. I have seen the last ten years of my academically, life is, yeah, you you get a lot in the beginning, but when you get older, you also have to give a lot to the community.

比如提携年轻人，帮助他们写论文，分享人脉资源等等。这正是我从亨利身上学到的——有取有予才能使学术共同体更丰富。开放创新社区之所以充满活力，正是因为亨利等人始终坚持奉献。这是我想分享的人生课。

So starting, let's say, the career of young people, helping younger people to to to bring, let's say, or to to write papers, to bring in the to bring to bring your network to them and all this kind of stuff. So and that's what I learned from Henry too. So you you take, but you also give. And it the community much richer, and I think one one one characteristic of the open innovation community is that because Henry, but also other people have been working hard on not only getting, but also giving to the community, it a vibrant community. And I think this is a lesson I want to share with everybody, and I learned from Henry.

虽然没听到趣闻，但我完全认同这些观点。我

So don't you see anecdotes, but I totally agree with those lessons. I

可以告诉你个温馨轶事。有些人知道，有些人不知道。这个关于学术界的小故事很有教育意义：当时我研究企业风投已七年，专注于与智能初创公司合作。

can tell you a nice anecdote. I can tell you a very nice anecdote. Some people know it already, other people don't know it. But it's a very nice anecdote in terms of also and it's also a lesson for for academics. I was already for seven years busy with corporate venturing and just corporate venturing with smart startups and so on.

我早已融入开放式创新之中，只是当时并未称之为开放式创新。突然有一天，不是学者，而是来自DSM的一位经理告诉我：'你应该读读那本书'。那本书是什么？《开放式创新》。

I was already embedded into open innovation without without naming it open innovation. And then all of a sudden, not an academic, but somebody from from the DSM, so a manager from DSM, told me, you should you should read that book. Yeah. Well, what is that book? Open Innovation.

于是我读了那本书，然后感叹道：'该死，这本书本该由我来写'——因为书里写的正是我七年来一直在做的事。几天后我们收到AUM的PDW征集通知时，我立刻有了这个想法。

Okay. So I read it and I said, damn it. I had to write that book because it's exactly what I'm doing already for seven years. So what I did is a a few days later, we had this kind of call for PDWs for AUM, and I and I had that I had that idea. Okay.

我当时完全不认识亨利，但还是给他发了邮件试探。几天后——这很符合亨利的作风——他回复说：'好，我们干吧。你来组织。'

I said, okay. Let me I didn't know Henry at all, so let me email Henry, and see what he says. And a few days later, and it's typical for Henry also, he said, okay. Let's do that. Right?

于是他开放了自己的人脉网络，接下来的事就水到渠成了。这成为了2006年那本书的起点。

So, you organize it. Let's do it. And he opened his network, and the rest is history. Right? So it was the beginning for a 2006 book and so on.

这件事说明几点：首先亨利非常乐于合作，愿意冒险与像我这样的无名之辈（维姆·范奥德维克）共事，这很难得。因为学术圈需要敢于冒险的优秀人才。

So it it shows a few things. First, Henry was very open to to to work, let's say, and to work with an unknown guy called Wim van Audewyck. So that's that's nice. Right? So because you take risk, and and I think good people Yeah.

反过来说，从我的角度看，这次合作以我无法预料的方式开启了职业生涯。你必须主动出击：建立人脉、发起倡议——比如这次PDW研讨会。你永远不知道，一个PDW可能就是你职业生涯的转折点。

Have to take in academia. But also the other way around is if you look from my side, this has been the start from my career, in a way I could not anticipate. And so you have to do some you have to take some initiatives here and there. You have to network, and you have to, yeah, initiate, let's say, this case, PDW, and the PDW you never know. A PDW can be the start of your career.

我获得的另一个启示是：专注当下就是在为未来做准备。当我第一次接触开放式创新时，就预感到这个领域需要专著——因为我已为此准备了七年。我亲眼见证DSM、飞利浦等荷兰企业朝这个方向发展，只是当时这个概念尚未命名，是亨利最终为其命名并构建了理论框架。

And the other other lesson I have is, yeah, do some so if you're working on something, it prepares you for the future. Because I saw from minute one that open innovation, that a book would be great, at least because it was something I was already prepared for, let's say, seven years because I I knew it was going that direction. I knew DSM and Philips and other companies in The Netherlands weren't working were working in that direction. So I saw it in the reality. It didn't have a name, and have Henry gave it the name and gave it the framework.

因此我立刻看到了价值，这可能是因为我有所准备。所以要时刻准备着。努力工作。做好你的工作。为美好的事物做好准备，然后主动出击。

And so I saw the value immediately, and that's what probably because I was prepared. So be prepared. Work hard. Do your job. Be prepared for nice things, and then take the initiative.

这是我们必须做的事情。所以不仅仅是读书，不仅仅是阅读文章，不仅仅是写论文。而是要与管理者共事，建立人脉，与政界人士交流，形成一个丰富的人脉网络，这样你才能抓住机遇，为机遇做好准备，然后采取主动。

And that's something that we have to do. So it's not only it's not only reading books. It's not only reading articles. It's not only writing papers. But be in be to be together with managers, have a network, talk to politicians, and and that's a rich network, right, which allows you to capture, let's say, opportunities, be ready for opportunities, and then take initiatives.

是的，许多主动行为可能不会有任何结果。但有时候，一两个重大机遇就会成功。

And, yeah, many initiatives will not do anything No. For your sometimes one or two big opportunities will will work out.

是的。不，我是说，感谢分享这些故事。我想我们在与亨利共事时也肯定有类似的经历，对我来说，这听起来像是在多个维度上的开放性，对吧？当然，我们谈论开放式创新，谈论知识的双向流动，但这也反映了他的个性，以及我们都从他身上学到的东西——这同样关乎给予与索取，关乎建立那些联系。这几乎就像是在个人生活和职业生涯中实践开放式创新，对吧？

Yeah. No, I mean, thanks for sharing those stories. And I think we definitely also share that experience also with our work in working with Henri, and it's for me, it sounds like openness in so many dimensions, right? Mean, course, we talk about open innovation, about, you know, knowledge flows inside out, outside in, but it's also about, I think it says something about his personality and something that we have all learned from him that also it's about give and take, it's about making those connections. So it's kind of another it's almost like open innovation in your personal life and professional career, right?

是的，我想起早期和后来从亨利那里收到的所有PPT文件。我们是双向分享的，对吧？这些信息对一个年轻人——当然不是现在，而是二十年前的我——来说极其宝贵。

Yeah, I think about all the PowerPoints I got from Henry sooner in the beginning and later on. We shared both ways. Right? And, yeah, it's so valuable as if for a young not now, of course, but when I was twenty years younger, it was so valuable to get this kind of information. Right?

因此你会吸收更多，因为你给予了很多。如果你付出很多，别人就能真正获取很多，吸收和学习。你的合作伙伴越优秀，你也会变得越优秀，对吧？

So and you absorb much more because you get a lot. So if you if you give a lot, other people can really, take a lot, right, and can absorb and can learn. Yeah. You the better your your partners are, the better you become. Right?

所以这是一种基于社群的学习方式，向亨利学习确实很有趣。

So in this, it's a community based learning, and that's interesting to Yeah. That's interesting to learn from Henry.

是的，完全正确。我认为这可能也是个完美的结束语。同时，我觉得这几乎是对人们发出参与的邀请。正如你所描述的，我们像从亨利那里学到的那样，作为一个开放的社区，始终欢迎互动，无论是直接交流还是通过任何你想使用的平台。

Yeah, exactly. I think that's also a perfect note probably to end on. And I think at the same time it's almost an invitation for people to be part. I mean, are open also as a community in the way that you describe it, as we have learned it from Henry. And we're always open to engage, and whether it's directly or through whatever platform you may want to use.

当然，这也是世界开放创新大会创办的初衷，以及我们如何努力进一步发展它。我认为这确实是他赋予这个社区DNA的一部分，保持这种开放性，欢迎新想法与他人分享。所以，我对此也完全赞同。就是这样。

Of course, this is also what was started for the World Open Innovation Conference itself and how we try to further develop it. That's really, I think that's part of the DNA that he gave to that community also to have that kind of openness and welcome new ideas to share with others. So, again, I also couldn't agree more with with that one either. So Yeah. So that's that's

是的，我真的建议大家参加2025年在毕尔巴鄂举行的WIC大会，对吧？就在11月份。

yeah. I can I can really advise everybody to join the WIC twenty twenty five in Bilbao? Right? That's in November.

没错，没错。是的，绝对是的。所以这绝对是向所有人发出的公开邀请。

Correct. Correct. Yeah. Definitely. So this definitely an open invitation for everybody.

所以也谢谢你帮忙宣传这个。那么，我想晚安了。

So thanks for for the plug on that one as well. So I think Good night.

好的，太棒了。我也会去的。所以

Yeah. Cool. I will be there too. So

不，太棒了，太棒了。所以我认为这个地方，我的意思是，你可以看到很多实时动态，建立联系，与人交流，这正是我们想做的。这就是大会本身的愿景。

No. Excellent. Excellent. So I think this is the place, I mean, where you can also see a lot of the live action and and and make the connections and connect to the people, and this is exactly what we want to do. This is the vision with conference itself.

因此，我期待在那里见到你。同时，我也要感谢你抽出时间并分享你的见解，包括一些趣闻轶事，以及你与亨利在开放创新方面的合作方式，特别是分享明年为庆祝他对该领域贡献将发生的所有精彩活动的细节。非常感谢你，维姆。也感谢所有听众。

So I look forward to seeing you there anyway. And I would like to thank you also for your time and sharing some of your insights, including some of the anecdotes, but also the way that you've worked with open innovation in general, with Henry in particular, and sharing some details of all the great things that will happen next year to celebrate his contribution to to to the field. So, yeah, thanks, Wim, very much for that. And thanks to all our listeners. Yeah.

谢谢。也感谢所有听众的参与，希望在我们下一期的《世界开放创新对话》中再见。谢谢，再见。

Thank you. Thanks to all our listeners also for joining, and I hope to see you in the next episode of our World Open Innovation Conversations. Thank you and goodbye.

谢谢。

Thank you.