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这个BBC播客由英国境外的广告支持。
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.
这并不是我们曾经被承诺的未来。
This is not the future we were promised.
比如，这作为节目的标语怎么样？
Like, how about that for a tagline for the show?
来自BBC，这里是《界面》，一档探讨科技如何重塑你的一周和整个世界的节目。
From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.
这与季度收益或科技评测无关。
This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.
它关注的是科技实际上如何影响你的工作、政治和日常生活。
It's about what technology is actually doing to your work and your politics, your everyday life
以及人们使用互联网的各种奇特方式。
And all the bizarre ways people are using the Internet.
在bbc.com或你收听播客的任何平台收听。
Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
大家好，欢迎收听《你已逝去》，这是一档由BBC第四电台出品的喜剧播客，以严肃的态度讲述历史。
Hello, and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio four comedy podcast that takes history seriously.
我叫格雷格·詹纳。
My name's Greg Jenner.
我是一名公共历史学家、作家和广播员。
I'm a public historian, author, and broadcaster.
今天，我们将带上最好的朋友，穿越回古代美索不达米亚，深入了解《吉尔伽美什史诗》。
And today, we are grabbing our bestie and gallivanting back to ancient Mesopotamia to learn all about the Epic of Gilgamesh.
为了帮助我们完成这段艰巨的旅程，我们请来了两位特别的向导。
And to help us on this daunting quest, we have two very special guides.
在历史角落，她是牛津大学沃尔夫森学院的荣誉研究员，研究并教授美索不达米亚历史、楔形文字和阿卡德语。
In History Corner, she's an honorary fellow at Wolfson College, University of Oxford, where she researches and teaches on the history of Mesopotamia, cuneiform, and the Akkadian language.
你可能读过她最近出版的精彩著作《双河之间：美索不达米亚与历史的诞生》。
You might have read her wonderful recent book, Between Two Rivers, Ancient Mesopotamia and the Birth of History.
这本书太棒了。
It is glorious.
你可能还记得她在我们关于古巴比伦人和楔形文字的节目中出现过。
And you'll remember her from our episodes on the ancient Babylonians and cuneiform.
她是穆迪·阿尔-拉希德博士。
It's Doctor Moudhy Al-Rashid.
欢迎你，穆迪。
Welcome, Moudhy.
谢谢。
Thank you.
感谢邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
能回来真是太棒了。
It's awesome to be back.
我们非常欢迎你回来。
We love having you back.
在喜剧角，她是一位获奖喜剧演员、演员和故事讲述者。
And in Comedy Corner, she's an award winning comedian, actor and storyteller.
你可能看过她在爱丁堡边缘艺术节的售罄演出，或在《打破新闻》或罗斯·琼斯的残障喜剧盛宴中见过她，又或是她的新广播四台节目《人类观察》。
You might have seen her sell out Edinburgh Fringe show or caught her on Breaking the News or Rosie Jones' disability comedy Extravaganza or her new Radio four show, Human Watch.
你肯定还记得她在我们关于苏格兰英雄罗伯特·布鲁斯（不是罗伯特·布鲁斯）的那期节目中的表现。
And you'll definitely remember her from our episode on Scottish hero Robert Bruce, not Robert the Bruce.
她是玛乔琳·罗伯逊。
It's Marjolein Robertson.
欢迎回来，玛乔琳。
Welcome back, Marjolein.
嘿，谢谢你再次邀请我回来，教我更多东西。
Hey, thank you for having me back to teach me more stuff.
玛乔琳，上次你无意中透露你有考古学学位。
Marjolein, last time you let slip that you have a degree in archaeology.
是的。
Yes.
我们一听就心想：哦不，这可有意思了。
And we immediately went, uh-oh, this is interesting.
她会知道多少呢？
How much will she know?
问题是，我对罗伯特·布鲁斯其实了解不多，但我写过关于《吉尔伽美什史诗》的论文。
Well, that's the thing, because I did not know much about Robert Bruce at all, but I did do my dissertation on the Epic of Gilgamesh.
我的论文研究的是《吉尔伽美什史诗》中的意象如何随着青铜时代不同权力斗争而变化。
But I did my dissertation on how has imagery from the Epic of Gilgamesh changed according to different power struggles across Bronze Age.
结果那篇论文写得太差了，差点让我整个学位都挂了。
And it was so bad that I almost failed my entire degree because of it.
我当时想，哦，吉尔伽美什，我记得这个。
And I thought, oh, Gilgamesh, I remember this.
然后我在脑子里仔细回想，可我根本记不起来了。
And then I thought in my brain, and I don't.
所以实际上，我都分不清哪条是底格里斯河，哪条是幼发拉底河了。
So what's really I can't even remember which one's the Tigris and which one's the Euphrates.
我真是生疏了。
I'm really rusty.
好的。
Okay.
所以给你做个复习。
So a refresher course for you.
会的。
It will be.
这也会让我给大学丢脸。
It'll also be like me bringing shame to university.
现在我都不确定要不要说出这所大学的名字了。
Don't know if I should even name the university at this point.
因为当你提到它的时候，我心里想，我真想再听一遍，但我一点都记不起来了。
Because when you said about it, I was like, I'd love to hear about this again, but I don't remember anything about it.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，我们可以解决这个问题。
Well, we can fix that.
我记得青铜时代。
I remember Bronze Age.
好的。
Okay.
所以我们房间里有两位青铜时代的专家。
So we have two Bronze Age experts in the room.
我不这么认为。
I wouldn't call myself that.
好的。
Okay.
我们有两个人大致知道它是什么时候的。
We have two people who know roughly when it was.
你看起来还是担心。
You you still look worried.
是的。
Yes.
嗯，因为我也搞混了，因为设得兰的青铜时代可能比其他人还要晚一些
Well, because also I get confused because Shetland, our Bronze Age was probably when everyone else was on
当然了。
the line of course.
稍微晚一点。
Bit later.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我
I
我对这个节目的两个方面都稍微有点落后了。
am a bit behind on both aspects of this show.
今天在播客里，我们将探索关于吉尔伽美什的种种内容，到结束时，你也会成为专家。
Well, today on the podcast, we're gonna explore all sorts about Gilgamesh, and by the end, you will be an expert too.
好的。
Okay.
太棒了。
Fabulous.
对。
Right.
我们开始吧。
Let's get cracking them.
这是我的大学做不到的。
It's something my university couldn't do.
那你了解多少？
So what do you know?
好的。
Okay.
这就是《那么你了解多少？》
This is the So What Do You Know?
这里是我来猜猜看，作为我们可爱的听众，你们可能对今天的话题了解多少。
This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject.
你可能听说过《吉尔伽美什史诗》中有一个与《圣经》中诺亚方舟相似的大洪水故事，或者你可能通过《命运》动画系列了解到吉尔伽美什是英雄之王，又或者你读过阿利夫·沙法克2024年的小说《天空中有河流》，又或者你听过约翰尼·弗林和罗伯特·麦克法伦受吉尔伽美什启发创作的专辑《迷失在雪松林中》。
And you might have heard that the Epic of Gilgamesh features a great flood narrative similar to the biblical story of Noah, or maybe you've encountered Gilgamesh as the king of heroes from the Fate anime series, or if you've read Alif Shafak's twenty twenty four novel, There Are Rivers in the Sky, or listen to Johnny Flynn and Robert McFarlane's Gilgamesh inspired album, Lost in the Cedarwood.
但如果你像我一样是个电影迷，那你可就倒霉了，因为至今没人拍过任何关于吉尔伽美什的电影，这实在太令人失望了。
But if you're a movie buff like me, you're plain out of luck because no one's done any kind of movies about Gilgamesh, which is very disappointing.
那么，吉尔伽美什究竟是谁？
So who exactly was Gilgamesh?
他真的有那么传奇吗？
Was he really that epic?
公牛的生殖器又和我们的故事有什么关系呢？
And how do bull penises fit into our story?
哦，我已经完全迷糊了！
Oh, I'm already lost!
让我们一起来找找答案。
Let's find out.
好的，穆迪博士，我们先从一些基础知识开始，这对我有帮助，也许对玛丽·莱恩也有帮助，尽管我相信这些对你来说都历历在目。
Right, Doctor Moudhy, we'll start with some basics for my benefit and perhaps Mary Lane's benefit, although I'm sure it all come flowing back to you.
《吉尔伽美什史诗》到底是什么？
What exactly is The Epic of Gilgamesh?
这是一首源自古代美索不达米亚的长诗，讲述了乌鲁克国王吉尔伽美什的一段转变之旅。
So it's a long poem from ancient Mesopotamia that tells a transformative journey of a king called Gilgamesh who ruled the city of Uruk.
它原本大约有3000到3100行，但如今仅存约2400到2500行，相比之下，《伊利亚特》有15000行。
It's originally about 3,000 or 3,100 lines long, but only about 2,400 or 2,500 remain compared to, for example, 15,000 in the Iliad.
它用楔形文字写在12块泥板上。
It's written in cuneiform on 12 tablets.
我们必须记住，楔形文字是一种书写系统，而不是古代美索不达米亚的语言；这片区域位于今天的伊拉克、叙利亚和土耳其部分地区，介于底格里斯河与幼发拉底河之间，曾先后孕育了苏美尔人、阿卡德人、亚述人和巴比伦人等一连串文明。
And we have to remember that cuneiform was a script, not a language used in ancient Mesopotamia, which is the region between and around the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in what is now Iraq, Syria, and parts of Turkey, which was home to a succession of civilizations like the Sumerians, the Akkadians, Assyrians, and Babylonians.
这真是一个非常精彩的总结。
That's a that's a very good summary.
干得好。
Well done.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我有个问题。
I already have a question.
请说。
Go for it.
是的。
Yeah.
所以你是说泥板是一种文字，而不是一种语言吗？
So do you see the the tablets were a script and not a language?
嗯。
Mhmm.
如果这对所有听众来说都太明显了，我很抱歉。
Sorry if that's really obvious to all the listeners.
但不是。
But No.
它是
It's
没关系。
fine.
这是为了他们的利益，也主要是为了我。
This is for their benefit and mostly mine.
其实一点也不明显。
Well, it's not obvious at all.
楔形文字是一种书写系统，就像我们用来书写英语的字母，也被用来书写法语和德语，只是有一些变化。
So cuneiform was a writing system like this the letters we used to write English also get used to write, like, French and German with some variations.
是的。
Yes.
在古代，它被用来书写多种基本上互不相关的语言，包括赫梯语——一种与英语同属印欧语系的语言——但主要还是用于苏美尔语、阿卡德语及其各种方言。
And it was used in antiquity to write a bunch of languages that were all mostly unrelated to each other, including Hittite, which is an Indo European language related to English, but primarily Sumerian and Akkadian and the various dialects of Akkadian.
因此，楔形文字是通过压印形成的。
And the tablet so cuneiform is impressed.
所以用墨水实际写出来还挺难的。
So it's kind of hard to actually write out with ink.
用芦苇笔在泥板上压印非常容易。
Very easy to impress with a reed stylus into clay.
《吉尔伽美什史诗》就记录在这些精美的泥板上，使用的是楔形文字。
So the story of Gilgamesh is recorded on these beautiful clay tablets in the cuneiform script.
我们确实有一期节目讲过楔形文字，Moudhy 和 Phil Wang 一起非常出色地为我们讲解了。
We do have an episode on cuneiform, which Moudhy very sort of very brilliantly guided guided us through with Phil Wang as well.
好的。
Okay.
Marjolein，你已经提到过青铜时代了。
Marjolein, you've already said Bronze Age.
你觉得《吉尔伽美什史诗》最早是什么时候被写下来的？
How long ago do you think the Epic of Gilgamesh was first written down?
我应该知道青铜时代大约是在公元前3000年吧？
I should know that the Bronze Age was around 3,000 BC?
是的。
Yeah.
对吗？
Is that right?
差不多对，是的。
That's about right, yeah.
但我们记录这个故事的实际版本可能要稍晚一些。
But we probably go a little later with our first recording of the actual story.
对。
Yeah.
所以我们其实不知道这个故事本身有多古老，因为它有口头传承的根源，我们在语言和其他文献中能发现一些线索。
So we don't actually know how old the story itself is because it has these oral roots that we have hints of in the language and in other references.
因此，它可能曾在国王的宫廷中被吟诵，比如大约公元前2100年到2000年的乌尔国王们，但它可能比这还要古老。
So it was probably recited, for example, in the courts of kings, including the kings of Ur around 2,100, 2,000, but it's probably older than that.
而最早记录这个故事版本的一些泥板文书，就来自那个时期，即公元前第三千纪或公元前2000年左右。
And then some of the earliest tablets written kind of records of versions of this story come from around that time period, the third millennium BCE or the 2000s BCE.
然后出现了一个标准版本。
And then there's a standard version.
有一个古巴比伦版本，还有一个所谓的标准巴比伦版本，这个版本被反复抄写，大约出现在公元前1100年，由一位名叫辛·勒基-乌尼尼的学者编撰。
There's an old Babylonian version and then there's a kind of standard Babylonian version, which is the one that gets copied over and over and over and over again, that comes from around probably 1,100 BCE, written by a scholar named Cin Lekki-unninni.
他在后来的文学目录中被提及，但我们不太确定在多大程度上可以称他为作者。
He named in a later literary catalogue, we're not too sure to what degree we can call him the author.
他只是确立了最流行的版本吗？
Does he just establish the most popular version?
这引发了关于古代美索不达米亚作者身份的有趣（在书呆子意义上）问题——在那里，人们更像是故事生命历程中的一环。
This raises fun in the nerdy sense questions about authorship in ancient Mesopotamia, where it's more like people are links in a chain in the life story of a story.
故事本身，比作者更重要，也比所有被记录下来的知识、智慧和文学所 perceived 的神圣起源更重要。
The tale itself, the story itself is more important than the author, as well as the kind of divine origins, the perceived divine origins of everything that gets written down, all knowledge, wisdom, and literature.
这就像荷马式的汇编吗？
Is that like the Homeric amalgamation
是的。
Yeah.
的
Of
讲故事的人？
storytellers?
他们就像说荷马写了这个，对吧，或者它是多年来收集和传诵的许多故事的集合。
They're like, Homer wrote this, right, or it's lots of stories gathered up and recited over the years.
绝对如此。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这个悲伤的故事。
So the story of the sorry.
哦，那个故事，你让我现在想不起来了。
The story of oh, you put it out of my head now.
吉尔伽美什的故事可能有五六千年的历史，但我们最早的记录大约是四千年前的。
The story of Gilgamesh is possibly five, six thousand years old, but our earliest records are about 4,000.
我想我们可能应该说，这其实很重要，吉尔伽美什这个名字并不是这个角色一直以来的名字。
Think I we probably should say, this is important actually, Gilgamesh was not always the name of the character.
什么？
What?
你想猜猜他最初的名字是什么吗？
Do you wanna guess what his original name was?
我叫斯蒂芬。
I Stephen.
斯蒂芬。
Stephen.
斯蒂芬，乌鲁克的国王。
Stephen, king of Uruk.
我的。
My.
乌鲁克的国王。
King of Uruk.
那不是吉尔伽美什。
It wasn't Gilgamesh.
不是。
No.
摩迪？
Moody?
他叫什么名字？
What was his name?
他叫比尔伽美什。
It was Bilgamesh.
比尔伽美什。
Bilgamesh.
是的。
Yes.
哦，
Oh,
这更有趣
that's funnier
比斯蒂芬还有趣。
than Stephen.
吉尔伽美什基本上是用于书写比尔伽美什的符号的晚期变体。
Gilgamesh is basically a late variation of, like, the signs used to write Bilgamesh.
大约有五首苏美尔诗歌讲述了关于比尔伽美什的不同故事，但它们直到我们之前提到的后来阿卡德或巴比伦版本中才被串联成一个连贯的叙事。
And there are around five Sumerian poems that tell distinct stories about Bilgamesh, but they're not strung together as one narrative until the later Akkadian or Babylonian version that we talked about.
哦，这太可爱了。
Oh, it's adorable.
比尔·戈梅什，听起来就像个有点令人失望的兄弟。
Bill Gomesh, he just sounds like a slightly disappointing brother.
是的，确实如此。
Yeah, he does.
有比尔·戈梅什、威尔·戈梅什，还有法国表亲吉尔伽美什。
There's Bill Gomesh and Will Gomesh and Gilgamesh, the French cousin.
他们有一整个家族。
There's a whole family of them.
当然，还有菲尔·戈梅什，他今晚在空中唱歌。
And of course, there's Phil Gomesh who sang in the air tonight.
是的。
Yeah.
还有Lady Gomesh。
And Lady Gomesh.
并不是全都一样。
Not all one.
比如苏美尔语。
Like, Sumerian.
你可能经常被问到的一个无聊问题是：吉尔伽美什是一个真实存在的人，后来被塑造成文学中的民间英雄，还是纯粹的虚构和幻想？
The boring question you probably get asked a lot was, is Gilgamesh a real guy who then gets turned into a literary folk hero, or is this pure speculation, pure fantasy?
没人真正知道答案。
Nobody really knows the answer to that.
他出现在我们称之为半历史文献的《苏美尔王表》中。
He's what we would he's referenced in what we would consider a semi historical document, which is called we call it the Sumerian king list.
这基本上是一份关于如今伊拉克南部地区——也就是我们所说的苏美尔——历代国王的列表。
Basically, list of kings in Southern what is now Southern Iraq, what we would call Sumer.
但这份列表始于一些神话中的远古国王，比如统治了三万年的阿鲁利姆，或统治了四百年的阿塔纳。
But it begins with these mythical primordial kings like Al-'ulim, who ruled for thirty thousand years, or Atana, who ruled for four hundred years.
因此我们知道，这些很可能不是真实存在的人，或者至少他们可能以真实人物为原型，但这些统治年限并非真实数据。
So we know that these are probably not real people, or maybe they are based on real people, but these are not their real reigns.
吉尔伽美什在名单中被记载统治了126年，如果这是按阴历月计算的话，或许还有可能。
And Gilgamesh has referenced on this having ruled for one hundred and twenty six years, which maybe if it's lunar months is potentially doable.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
但也可能并不成立。
Possibly also not.
不过，名单上确实有一些真实存在的国王，我们通过其他史料证实了他们的存在，比如统治过的萨尔贡国王。
There are real kings on the list, though, that we know existed that are corroborated from other sources, like King Sargon, who ruled
是的
Yeah.
对于一个杯子来说，你知道的，大约在公元前2300年左右。
For a cup you know, couple of decades around twenty three hundred BCE.
他被提及过，我们从其他文献中了解他，还有很多类似的人物。
He's referenced we know him from other documents, and there are a whole bunch like that.
那么，他究竟是一个进入历史书籍的文学人物，还是一个被赋予传奇色彩的历史人物呢？
So is he a literary character who moved into the history books, or is he a historical figure who took on legendary proportions?
我不知道。
I don't know.
是的
Yeah.
我记得看过那份名单，有些国王统治了三千年，有些七千年。
I remember looking the list, and some kings last for three thousand years, some seven.
是的
Yeah.
而且而且而且
And and and
然后我就想，与其换政治家。
then I was like instead of changing politicians.
但我一直在想，会不会是三千年都是一个家族的名字，后来被列为一位王室成员？
But I was like, what could it have been that three thousand years was a family name that then got listed as one royal member?
这是一个非常有趣的可能性。
That's a really interesting possibility.
谢谢。
Thank you.
是的。
Yeah.
因为这是一种非常公式化的东西，每一位国王，实际上还有一位名叫库巴奥的王后，都被赋予了在位的年数。
Because it's such a formulaic thing, and each king is and and one queen, actually, named Kubao is given a number of years that they reign for.
这可能是年数，但我认为那些不可能的时长恰恰反映了王权的这种意识形态。
It's probably years, but I think the the impossible lengths speak a little bit to this ideology of kingship
嗯。
Mhmm.
他们试图在同一个文献中确立这种观念：看，王权是多么古老，像这样的统治者存在了多久。
That they're trying to establish in the same document saying, look how old king kingship, the the the existence of a ruler like this is.
在古代美索不达米亚，如果某事物很古老，那它显然就是重要且合法的。
And if something is old, it's obviously important and legitimate in ancient Mesopotamia.
他们非常崇敬自己的古代历史。
They really revered their ancient history.
所以我认为这些不可能的在位年限正是服务于这种意识形态。
So I think these impossible reigns feed into that ideology.
有了这样的铺垫，他们就可以接着列出那些实际统治了七年或五十年的真正国王。
And then with that setup, they can go on to list the real kings who ruled for seven years or fifty years.
所以吉尔伽美什，也许他是真实存在的。
So Gilgamesh, maybe he's real.
他无疑成为了国王应有典范的代表。
He certainly becomes a model for what a king should be.
这公平吗？
Is that fair?
是的。
Yes.
当然。
Absolutely.
对。
Yeah.
有一些国王效仿他，比如舒尔吉，他大约在二月统治，甚至声称自己和吉尔伽美什有同样的母亲。
There are kings that model themselves on him like Shulgi, who rules around February and who even claims to have the same mom as Gilgamesh.
这不可能发生。
That can't happen.
吉尔伽美什统治了一百二十六年，你看，他不可能和下一个人有同样的母亲。
That Gilgamesh ruled You see, Gilgamesh ruled a hundred and twenty six years.
你不可能和下一个人有同样的母亲。
You can't have the same mom as the next person.
当然。
Surely.
她找到了一种对抗更年期的方法。
She has found a way to defeat menopause.
我也想要她吃的那种东西。
I want what she's having.
是的，没错。
Yeah, exactly.
那些药片。
Those pills.
稳定雌激素。
Calm the oestrogen.
对，对。
Yeah, yeah.
所以吉尔伽美什，他有点像亚瑟王，但可能更真实一些。
So Gilgamesh, he's sort of King Arthur y, but maybe real ish.
好吧，我们差不多就处在那个领域了。
Okay, we're sort of in that sort of territory.
玛乔琳，希腊神话中的赫拉克勒斯是半人半神。
Marjolein, Hercules in Greek myth is half mortal, half god.
吉尔伽美什则要复杂一些。
Gilgamesh, he's he's slightly more complicated.
他是三分之二神，三分之一人，这感觉奇怪多了。
He's two thirds god, one third human, which feels weirder somehow.
我不知道为什么。
I don't know why.
这个比例感觉不对劲。
The the ratio feels off.
那是多角恋的巴林顿？
That's polyamorous Barrington?
哦。
Oh.
这怎么可能发生？
How would that happen?
是的。
Yeah.
怎么可能
How could
是三分之一个造物呢？
it be thirds of a creation?
也许你是对的。
Maybe you're right.
也许吧。
Maybe.
这就像耶稣大腿上缝进去的那种情况吗？
Is that like a sewn into Jesus' thigh kind of situation?
这是个好问题。
That's a good question.
是的。
Yeah.
穆迪，你怎么得到一个三分之一凡人、两个神、2.2，是的。
Moudhy, how do you get a one third mortal, two gods, 2.2 yeah.
你怎么得到零点六六个神？
How do you do point six six god?
我认为这是因为《吉尔伽美什史诗》的背景中有一位名叫埃阿的神，他是智慧之神。
I think you do that because in the background of the Gilgamesh epic, there is this deity called Ea, who's the god of wisdom.
他是个相当顽皮的神。
He's quite a mischievous god.
他从不真正站在前台。
He's never really front and center.
他更像是与故事交织在一起。
He's kind of, like, interwoven to the story.
代表他的数字是60的三分之二。
The number that represents him is two thirds of 60.
现在忘了那个数字是什么了。
Forgetting what that number is now.
15？
15?
对吗？
Is that right?
我不知道。
I don't know.
三分之二？
Two two thirds?
是的。
Yeah.
四十。
Four 40.
四十多？
40 something?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不是数学家。
I'm not a mathematician.
我不记得那个数字本身。
I don't remember the number itself.
我只是记得这个比例，而且这可能是吉尔伽美什中作为对智慧 mischief 神 Eeya 的参考所内置的。
I just remember the ratio, and that that might be what's built into Gilgamesh here as a reference to Eeya, the mischievous god of wisdom.
哦，好吧。
Oh, okay.
有可能。
Possibly.
这是在回溯。
This is harking back.
所以他是的。
So he's yeah.
好的。
Okay.
他是被设定为父亲吗，所以
Is he meant to be the father so that
不是。
no.
所以吉尔伽美什的母亲宁孙是女神。
So Ninsunn, the god the mother of Gilgamesh is the goddess.
这就是神圣的部分。
That's the divine bit.
哦，明白了。
Oh, okay.
而父亲是凡人。
And has a mortal dad.
哦，所以是神母，凡人父。
Oh, so godly mom, mortal dad.
是的
Yeah.
然后不知怎么的，埃阿也掺和进来了。
And then somehow Ea pops into the mix.
他只有三分之一是神。
Him only one third god.
是的
Yeah.
意思是，那是什么？
Mean, that's What?
抱歉。
Sorry.
没关系。
It's alright.
数学是我最弱的科目。
Math is my weakest point.
我想我们都同意。
I think we can all agree.
我们当中没人特别擅长数学。
None of us are particularly good on the math.
两个神和一个凡人，就等于三分之一神。
Two gods and one mortal makes one third god.
我的意思是，显而易见的问题是，玛丽·莱恩，如果你能拥有一个神的身体部位，你会选择哪个？
I mean, the obvious question, Mary Lane, if you could have a a godly body part, what would you choose?
如果你能成为三分之一神或者三分之二神，你会选哪个？
If you could be one third god or or two thirds god, what would you go for?
哦，三分之二神。
Oh, two thirds gods.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但是，比如说，我在沙滕神话中有一位海神，叫塞莫蒂丝，海洋之母。
But, like, I would go for we have a goddess in Shanten called Seamothith, mother of the sea.
我会选她。
I'd go for her.
她能穿着靴子游泳，还能和海豹一起呼吸。
She could swim in boot and breathe with the seals.
所以你是想当美人鱼。
So you go kinda mermaid.
那就是你想要的那种鱼的身体。
That's the you'd want sort of fishy body.
是的。
Yeah.
上半身是鱼。
Top half fish.
上半身是鱼。
Top top half fish.
为什么
Why
不是吗？
not?
就剩一个鱼头。
And just a fish head.
还有腿。
And legs.
它们的眼睛可以在身体两侧。
They can have eyes on either side.
我们能看出来吉尔伽美什拥有的一个神圣的生理特征就是身高。
The one thing that we can see as a divine physical attribute Gilgamesh has is height.
我们的国王吉尔伽美什有多高，比尔伽美什？
How tall is our king Gilgamesh, Bilgamesh?
嗯，我总觉得当他们想把自己显得宏伟时，如果这个词这么发音的话，用法语怎么说。
Well, I always feel like when they want to make themselves grandoise, if that's the word and how you pronounce it in French.
抱歉。
Sorry.
你是想说‘grandiose’吗？
Are you saying grandiose there?
不是。
No.
我说的是‘grandoise’，意思是非常高大和宏伟。
I'm saying grandoise, as in very large and grand.
哦，我喜欢这个词。
Oh, I like it.
他们想让自己变得特别高。
They want to make themselves super tall.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但我也觉得，那时候的人本来就比较矮。
But also, I feel like back then, they were just shorter anyway.
所以我认为他选了五英尺十一英寸这种高耸的身高。
So I think he went for the lofty height of five eleven.
五英尺十一英寸？
Five eleven?
是的。
Yeah.
像男人中的巨人一样。
Like a giant among men.
对。
Yeah.
那时候肯定算是了。
Back then, surely would be.
如果看皮克特人的衣服和饮食，他们都很矮小。
If you go by the shirt and diet of Picts, they're all tiny.
好的。
Okay.
穆迪，根据传说，吉尔伽美什有多高？
Moudhy, how tall is Gilgamesh according So to the
他有九英尺高。
he is nine
英尺高，是的。
feet tall in the Yeah.
在索法斯·赫尔的一个译本中，这是一个非常优美的译本，他说有十八英尺高，这可能更像是一种不便，而不是别的。
And in one translation by Sofas Hell, which is a gorgeous translation, he's eighteen feet tall, which would be more of an inconvenience probably than anything else.
我知道人们在Tinder上喜欢高个子男人，但九英尺也太高了吧。
I know people want tall men on Tinder, but like, nine feet too tall.
天哪。
Oh my god.
你根本没法在圣诞节买太多衣服。
You can't buy many clothes for Christmas.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，光是鞋码就够呛了。
I mean, the shoe size alone.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
别闹了。
Come on.
什么？
What?
九英尺还是十一英尺？
Nine foot or eleven foot?
还是你说十八英尺？
Or eighteen, you say?
十八英尺。
Eighteen.
十八英尺。
Eighteen.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他们说，干脆翻倍吧。
So they're like, let's double it.
不。
No.
你会注意到的。
You'll notice.
当我们达到九英尺的时候，
By the time we hit nine,
我们还不如直接翻倍。
we might as well double it.
十八英尺。
Eighteen feet.
好的。
Okay.
所以他基本上和公交车一样大。
So he's basically as big as a bus.
所以当你看到以前的那些雕像时，你会想，天哪。
So when you saw statues of them from back in the day, they're like, oh, no.
这仅仅是规模的问题。
That's just the scale.
真人大小的吉尔伽美什。
The life size Gilgamesh.
所以我们的主角有三分之二是神。
So our main character is two thirds divine.
他的名字从吉尔伽美什变成了吉尔伽美什，只是微调了一下。
He has a minor name change from Gilgamesh to Gilgamesh.
他可能正在将宫殿的门框调整到18英尺高。
He is adjusting his palace doorways to 18 feet possibly.
穆迪，我们的吉尔伽美什故事是从哪里开始的？
Moudy, how does our story of Gilgamesh begin?
我们是他在成年后才遇见他吗？
Is it do we meet him in adulthood?
我们是当他成为国王时才遇见他吗？
Do we meet him as a king?
是的。
We do.
他是乌鲁克的暴君国王。
He's the tyrannical king of Uruk.
他在新婚之夜侵犯新娘。
He violates brides on their wedding nights.
他强迫男子和男孩们建造一座巨大的城墙（这确实是考古发现的实物），并强迫他们参加激烈的体育运动，使他们筋疲力尽。
He exhausts the men and boys by forcing them to build a humongous wall, which is real, an archaeological wall, and play violent sports.
最后，妇女们恳求。
And finally, the women beg
我的教授问：你怎么知道这个的？
And my professor said, how did you know that?
因为我以前总是说出一些教授本该知道的事实，结果我不得不引用《可怕的历史》来佐证。
Because I used to come out with facts that the professor should know, and I'd have to like quote Horrible Histories.
德里，德里。
Derry derry.
他给了我推荐信。
And he's given my references.
好的。
Okay.
所以他需要一个朋友，或者一个能与他在擂台上抗衡的对手。
So he needs a friend or he needs an equal to sort of match him in the ring.
谁
Who
是谁被创造出来，或者被派下来与吉尔伽美什对抗、战斗或玩耍的？
is created or you know, who is sent down to match or fight or play with Gilgamesh?
于是众神用泥土和神血创造了恩奇都。
So the gods create Enkidu from clay and divine blood.
有一段非常优美的描述。
There's a really beautiful description.
他诞生于寂静之中。
He's born in silence.
换句话说，不是伴随着分娩的哭喊。
In other words, not with the cries of childbirth.
起初，他是个野人。
He's, at first, a wild man.
他被描述为毛发浓密，几乎像动物一样，与动物、瞪羚生活在一起。
He's described as being very hairy and almost animal like, and he lives among the animals, the gazelles.
他让猎人们感到苦恼，因为他不断破坏他们的陷阱并解救动物。
And he causes grief to hunters because he's constantly foiling their traps and rescuing the animals.
哦。
Oh.
是的。
Yeah.
所以当猎人们抱怨时，吉尔伽美什得知了这件事。
So Gilgamesh learns about this when the hunters complain, effectively.
他通过这些抱怨了解了恩奇都。
He he learns about Enkidu from the complaints.
所以他是个动物权利活动家。
So he's an animal rights activist.
是的。
Yeah.
他一路破坏陷阱，没错。
He's going along sabotaging traps and Exactly.
好的。
Okay.
吉尔伽美什觉得，这家伙毁了我的狩猎。
And Gilgamesh is like, this guy's ruining my hunting.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我要去把他找出来。
I'm gonna go sword him out.
好的。
Okay.
你觉得暴君吉尔伽美什会如何应对这个新威胁？
How do you think tyrannical Gilgamesh addresses this this new threat?
这次我觉得我能准确地说出这一段。
This is the one time I think I'll get this bit right.
这是我从故事里记得的唯一一件事，你可以从中自行解读。
This is the one thing I remember from the story, which take from that what you will.
他们找来了一位非常迷人的女士。
They get a really attractive lady.
是的。
They do.
对。
Yes.
他们给她涂上芬芳的香油，然后让她现身，让他明白融入社会的好处，接着她诱惑了他。
They cover her nice smelling oils, and they're like, show him why he wants to enter society, and she seduces him.
恩奇都说：我宁愿和人类在一起，也不愿和动物为伍。
And Enkidu is like, I'd rather be with humans than animals.
至此，我的知识就讲完了。
And thus ends my knowledge.
说得真好。
Beautifully put.
西德赢得了英国广播公司第四频道的奖项，太棒了。
And Sid won the Radio four, so well done.
莫迪，我的意思是，玛丽·莱恩做了一个非常优美、优雅的描述。
Moody I mean, Mary Lane did a very beautiful, elegant description.
是的。
Yeah.
这更像是一部吉莉·库珀的小说，不是吗？
It's a bit more Jilly Cooper novel, isn't it?
它比那更带点香艳色彩。
It's a bit more sort of racy than that.
这不是爱情，而是一种嬉戏打闹。
It's not love, it's it's sort of romping.
当然了。
Oh, absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
但他们并没有结婚。
But they're not married.
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
那么，被派去的那位女性是谁呢？
So who is the woman who is sent along?
是的。
Yeah.
所以他派吉尔伽美什派了一位名叫沙姆哈特的女性去诱惑恩奇都。
So he sends Gilgamesh sends a woman called Shamhat to seduce Enkidu effectively.
她是一位神庙工作者，可能是性工作者，也是伊什塔尔的女祭司。
She's a temple worker, maybe a sex worker, a priestess of Ishtar.
我们其实不太确定用来描述她的那个词该怎么翻译。
We're not really sure how to translate the word that's used to describe her.
伊什塔尔是爱与战争的女神。
Ishtar being the goddess of love and war.
他们发生了七天七夜的性关系，可能更久。
And they have sex for seven days and seven nights, possibly more.
哦。
Oh.
之后，他变得文明了，动物们实际上在他经历此事后拒绝了他。
After which she becomes civilized and the animals actually reject him after this.
不可能。
No way.
是的
Yeah.
所以他们就是说，不行。
So they're just like, no.
我们能闻出来你变了。
We can smell that you've changed.
哦，我们能。
Oh, we can.
是的
Yeah.
什么？
What?
是的
Yeah.
所以你其实说得对。
So you were spot on, actually.
这和伊甸园的故事以及亚当和夏娃与自然和谐共处，随后获得知识却被逐出乐园，有什么相似之处吗？
Does that have any kind of similarities to the Garden of Eden story and Adam and Eve living in harmony of nature and then getting this knowledge and then being outcast from the garden itself?
这是个有趣的问题。
It's an interesting question.
我也有过这种想法。
Thought of that.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
确实有点相似，不是吗？
It is it is sort of similar, isn't it?
是的。
It is.
一个与自然共处的男人，随后一个女人出现，毁了一切。
A man who lives with nature and then a woman comes along and ruins it.
对不起。
I'm sorry.
给他最好的七个夜晚。
Give him the best seven nights out
我本来想说是毁了它，或者极大地改善了他的生活。
of I was gonna say ruins it or vastly improves his life.
说实话。
Let's be honest.
然后吉尔伽美什出现了。
And then Gilgamesh sort of shows up.
嗯。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
或者恩奇都来到了乌鲁克。
Or Enkidu sort of shows up to Uruk.
他他，哦，是的。
He he Oh, yeah.
哦，所以恩奇都被告知，吉尔伽美什要求在新婚之夜与新娘同寝，于是他们在其中一位新娘家的门口相遇并开始摔跤。
Oh, so he go he's so Enkidu's told that Gilgamesh is kind of demanding this right to sleep with brides on their wedding night, and they meet on the threshold of one of these bride's houses and start wrestling.
这个动词是‘subtu’。
The verb is, it's subtu.
他们抓住或扭住对方，这个短语后来也被用于他们拥抱时。
They take hold of or they seize each other, which is the same phrase used later when they embrace.
在其他文献中，这个短语也用于描述婚姻。
And it's also a phrase used for marriage in other sources.
哦，真的吗？
Oh, really?
用‘抓住’来表示缔结婚姻，这非常浪漫。
Seize someone in marriage, which is very romantic.
结果发现他们实力相当。
And they turn out to be equally matched.
他们亲吻并成为朋友，吉尔伽美什像对待女人一样抚摸恩奇都。
They kiss and make friends, and Gilgamesh caresses Enkidu like a woman.
这里使用了一些非常有趣的意象，而且我认为相当直接。
There's some really interesting imagery being used and, you know, quite direct, I would say.
好的。
Okay.
所以很明显的问题是，你说他们是匹配的，我们知道恩奇都被派来与他相配。
So the obvious question there, you say match, you know, so they we've had this idea of Enkidu being sent down to be a match for him.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但听起来这似乎不仅仅是浪漫，更像是一种柏拉图式的爱，但也可能带有一些吸引力？
But it sounds like there's an almost a more than romantic almost, you know, platonic love, but there's also, like, a an attraction, maybe?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这里确实存在一种浪漫的爱。
There's I think there's definitely a romantic love.
好的。
Okay.
而且他们用大量的语言向我们传达了这一点。
And they they tell us this with a lot of language.
比如，他会像对待新娘一样爱他。
Like, he's gonna love him like a bride.
他们互相抚慰。
They caress each other.
他们接吻。
They kiss.
在故事的后续部分，他以不同的方式被重新诠释。
Later in the story, he gets reprised in different ways.
所以我认为‘匹配’这个说法可能原本就是有意模糊的，但我觉得我们的翻译恰好保持了这种模糊性，因为它全面涵盖了他们关系所呈现的各个方面。
So I think matches maybe it's I don't know if it's was deliberately vague, but I think our translation is nicely vague because it covers all the bases, really, of what their relationship takes on.
这里的多元情感关系还挺现代的，不是吗？
It's quite modern, the polyamory here, isn't it?
因为我们看到，吉尔伽美什派了一位女士去勾引他未来的男友。
Because we've got, you know, Gilgamesh sending along a lady to seduce his future boyfriend.
这非常开放。
It's quite quite open.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这明显是一种两个男人之间的爱情。
I mean, this this this feels like a love between two men.
对。
Yeah.
我认为确实如此，即使早期的译者对此有所保留。
And I think it absolutely is, even if kinda earlier translators were reticent to say that.
想想维多利亚时代的人。
Think The Victorians
他们只是非常好的朋友。
were like like, were good friends.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
他们不只是合租室友。
They weren't just flatmates.
他们只是合租室友。
They're just flatmates.
他们只是作为朋友住在一起。
They just lived together as friends.
他们只是兄弟。
They're just bros.
他们只是兄弟，只是喜欢一起看
They're just bros, they just A like watching
一段美丽的爱情故事。
beautiful story of love.
穆迪，我们能听一些这段美丽的阿卡迪亚诗歌吗？
Moudhy, could we hear some of this beautiful Arcadian poetry then?
这真美。
That's beautiful.
一种非常优美的语言。
A really beautiful language.
确实非常优美。
It is really beautiful.
是的，太美了。
Yeah, it's gorgeous.
那么用英语，你能为我们翻译一下吗？
And in English then, would you mind translating that for us?
好的。
Yes.
当吉尔伽美什讲述这个梦时，恩奇都正坐在神庙女子面前。
So as Gilgamesh was relating the dream, Enkidu was sitting before the temple woman.
他们两人正在交欢。
The two of them were making love together.
他忘记了自己出生的荒野。
He forgot the wild where he was born.
整整七天七夜，恩奇都都勃起着，与夏姆哈特交合。
For seven days and seven nights, Enkidu was erect, and he coupled with Shamkhat.
更直白地说，他与夏姆哈特交合了。
More literally, he poured out with Shamkhat.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
内容相当露骨。
Is pretty spicy stuff.
是的，这相当直白。
Yeah, it's quite graphic.
他们毫不掩饰地表达。
They did not mince their words.
他们希望清楚地展现正在发生的事情。
They wanted it to be quite clear what was happening.
发生的事情非常清楚。
Very clear what's happening.
好的。
Okay.
七天七夜都处于勃起状态。
Seven days and seven nights of being erect.
他做得很好。
Good well done for him.
我们有这样优美的诗歌，也有吉尔伽美什与恩奇都相遇的情节。
We have that sort of beautiful poetry, and we have Gilgamesh meeting his match in Enkidu.
那么他们第一次冒险是去干什么？
So what is the first adventure they go on?
是什么促使了这次冒险？
And what and what spurs the adventure?
他们为什么需要去完成这次任务？
Why do they need to go on a a quest?
我们有这样一个场景，恩奇都感到很悲伤。
So we we have this scene where Enkidu is feeling sad.
我要记住，这部史诗中有很多部分已经遗失了。
I'm keeping in mind that lots of bits are missing from the epic.
我们并不完全确定原因。
We're not 100% sure why.
为了让他振作起来，吉尔伽美什决定他们需要扬名立万。
And to cheer him up, Gilgamesh decides they need to make a name.
他需要为自己赢得名声。
He needs to make a name for himself.
但恩奇都并不太感兴趣。
But Enkidu is not so keen.
他们踏上了一段旅程，实际上是去杀死雪松森林的守护者胡姆巴巴。
They go on a quest effectively to kill the guardian of the cedar forest, Khumbaba.
这些森林位于如今的黎巴嫩地区，而原始雪松林如今留存不到1%。
So these forests are in what is now Lebanon and devastatingly less than 1% of the original cedar forest remains.
真实的国王们确实曾进入这些森林，砍伐木材建造宫殿、王座等。
And real kings did go into these forests and get timber to build palaces, to build their thrones, etcetera.
这就是他们的第一次支线任务。
So that is their first side quest.
他们的第一次支线任务就是去杀死森林守护者。
Their first side quest is let's go kill a forest guardian.
是的。
Yes.
为了让你的朋友振作起来，因为他感到难过。
To cheer you because your friend's feeling sad.
当你的朋友难过时，我们该怎么办？
What what do we do when your friend is sad?
我们去杀个神吧。
Let's go kill some sort of god.
太惊人了。
It's wow.
我们之前太温柔了。
It's like, we've been too loving.
我们是不是该通过变得冷酷来平衡一下？这会是恩奇都被疏远的那片森林吗，还是另一片森林？
Let's balance that out by being around could that be the forest that Enkidu was estranged from, or is it a different forest?
是另一片。
It's a different one.
这片森林需要长途跋涉，他们花了相当长的时间才到达。
This one, have to travel to and takes them quite a while to get there.
尽管他们几天内就能走完很长的距离。
Although they'd cover huge distances in a matter of days.
他有十八英尺高。
Well, he's eighteen foot tall.
他的步幅非常长。
He's got a very long stride pattern.
恩奇都和吉尔伽美什一样高吗？
Is Enkidu as tall as Gilgamesh?
我的意思是，他被描述为吉尔伽美什的对手，但他们没提他的具体身材比例。
Well, I mean, he is described as his equal, but they don't give his proportions.
他们只说他高大、耀眼，还有其他各种形容。
They just say he is big and dazzling and all these other things.
高大而耀眼。
Big and dazzling.
是的。
Yes.
这简直是完美的 Tinder 个人简介。
That's that's a great Tinder profile.
你好。
Hello.
恩奇都，高大而耀眼。
Enkidu, big, dazzling.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
对什么都开放。
Open to anything.
好的。
Okay.
我的意思是，他们要去砍倒一棵著名的树。
I mean, so they're going off to go and cut down a a famous tree.
是的。
Yes.
穆迪，洪巴巴的外形感觉是怎样的？
Moudhy, what what is Humbaba's physical vibe?
他长什么样？
What's he look like?
他很可怕。
He's terrifying.
好的。
Okay.
所以他有点像龙。
So he's quite dragon y.
他是多种元素的混合体。
He is a mix of things.
呃。
Ugh.
说得太准了。
That's spot on.
在更早的苏美尔版本故事中，火焰会从他的嘴唇喷出。
There's fire that comes from his his lips from an earlier Sumerian version of this exact same story.
他们描述他好斗的嘴巴如同龙的巨口。
They write his pugnacious mouth is a dragon's maw.
他的面容如同狮子的狰狞表情。
His face is a lion's grimace.
他的胸膛如同汹涌的洪水。
His chest is like a raging flood.
无人敢靠近他的额头，那额头吞噬着芦苇丛。
No one dare approach his brow, which devours the reed beds.
因此，在战斗期间和之后，恩奇都和吉尔伽美什都不确定自己为何要这么做，为何要挑战并杀死这个怪物。
So during and after the battle, Enkidu and Gilgamesh are not sure why they've done it, why they've taken on this monster and killed him.
这显得异常反思，甚至带着一丝悔意和敏感。
It's really it's weirdly reflective and almost regretful and sensitive.
所以在战斗中，他们一直在想：我们为什么要这么做？
So in the battle, they're going like, why are we doing this?
是的
Yeah.
我不知道
I don't know.
没错
Exactly.
尽管他们一路上不断反思，他们还是这么做了，这在一部史诗级的龙战中显得有些出人意料。
And then they do it anyway, even though they're having these moments of reflection along the way, which is kind of unexpected for an epic dragon battle.
当巴比恳求宽恕时，吉尔伽美什拒绝了，之后恩奇都质疑他们为何这么做。
When Baba pleads for mercy, Gilgamesh refuses, and afterwards, Enkidu questions why they've done this.
他们为何要摧毁森林的守护者，砍倒这么多树木？
Why have they gone and destroyed the guardian of forest and cut down so many of the trees?
所以这是一个非常有趣的场景。
So it's a really interesting scene.
我同情恩奇都。
I feel for Enkidu.
他交了第一个朋友，而这个朋友却是个坏影响。
He's made his first friend, and his first friend is a bad influence.
是的。
Yeah.
拉着他去干这些愚蠢的任务。
Dragging on these stupid quests.
他只想待在森林里。
He just wants to hang out in the forest.
暂时如此。
For now.
哦，好吧。
Oh, okay.
所以主要是恩奇都和吉尔伽美什杀死了重要的森林守护者，一位神祇。
So Enkidu and Gilgamesh, primarily, has killed an important forest guardian, one of the gods.
我的意思是，他是个神吗？
I mean, is is he a god?
他有那个级别吗？
Is he of that level?
他是被众神创造的吗，姆巴巴？
Is he created by the gods, Mbaba?
我认为他的名字是用一个明确的限定符书写的。
I think his name is written with a defined determinative.
我不确定他是不是神，但他绝对不是一个凡人。
I I don't I don't know if he's a god, but he's definitely not more a mortal
当然。
Sure.
你知道的，一个容易被杀死的角色。
You know, an easy to kill figure.
他相当
He's quite a
好的。
Okay.
所以他很重要。
So he's important.
对吧？
Right?
他正在保卫森林。
He's defending the forest.
你认为吉尔伽美什犯下此罪会有什么后果？
What do you think are the repercussions for Gilgamesh having committed this crime?
我只是觉得吉尔伽美什到目前为止都没有表现出任何悔意。
I just feel like Gilgamesh has shown no remorse so far.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我现在根本看不到他表现出悔意。
That I just don't see him showing remorse now.
而且，我觉得无论吉尔伽美什是否真实存在，他都真正参与了自己传说的撰写。
Also, I feel like Gilgamesh, if he's real or not, has had a real hand in writing his tale.
所以我觉得，吉尔伽美什做了坏事，但他依然很伟大。
So I'm like, Gilgamesh did something bad, but he's still great.
哦。
Oh.
你觉得他写了属于自己的冒险故事吗？
You think he authors his own quest narrative?
当然。
For sure.
哦，明白了。
Oh, okay.
而且你觉得他是在说，不。
And you think you think he's going, no.
把我说得特别高。
Put put that I was really tall.
是的。
Yeah.
十八英尺。
Eighteen feet.
十八。
Eighteen.
他没有让我变高，也没有让我变老，但我的名字以G开头。
He doesn't make me tall, make me older, but my name start with a g.
我击败了森林怪物。
I defeat the forest monster.
我不知道。
I don't know.
它们会掉下来吗？
Do they fall out?
恩奇都从吉尔伽美什身上掉下来了吗？
Does Enkidu fall out of Gilgamesh?
这很有趣
That's an interesting
不过，我不希望他们分手。
I don't want them to break up, though.
嗯，
Well
我希望吉尔伽美什能成长、学习，并去接受治疗，就像我当初承诺的那样，但也许他们确实得分手。
I want Gilgamesh to grow and learn and go to therapy like I was promised, but maybe they have to break up.
嗯，这就是浪漫喜剧的套路。
Well, that's how rom coms work.
所以，这是部浪漫喜剧吗，穆迪？
So is is it a rom com, Moudhy?
接下来会发生什么？
What happens next?
还不完全是。
Not quite.
不过，确实有一个第三方介入了剧情，而且是个相当强大的角色。
Although there is a third party who enters the scene, who is quite quite a powerful one.
所以，在那场争吵之后，女神伊什塔尔——她又是爱与战争、暴力的女神——
So after the fight, the goddess Ishtar, who's, again, the goddess of love and war, violence, Those
这两者看起来不像是同一个范畴吧？
two things don't seem like the same remit?
不是的。
No.
她是个非常情绪不稳定的女神。
She's quite she's she's a very volatile goddess.
当然。
Sure.
所以是这样的。
So yeah.
她从亲密关系和谋杀中都能获得同样的快感，我想。
She takes the same pleasure in lovemaking and murderer, I guess.
是的。
Yeah.
她是一个很有趣的人物。
She's an interesting figure.
当然。
Sure.
她看到吉尔伽美什后便爱上了他，并向他求婚。
And she sees Gilgamesh and falls in love and proposes marriage.
但吉尔伽美什拒绝了她，列举了她所有死去或衰落的前恋人，其中一个人甚至被变成了类似蜚蠊之类的生物。
But Gilgamesh rejects her, listing all her dead or otherwise diminished former lovers, one of whom gets turned into, like, an earwig or something like that.
她非常愤怒，于是召唤她的父亲、天神安努，派下天牛——也就是金牛座——去杀死吉尔伽美什。
And, she gets pretty angry and calls on her father, Anu, the sky god, to send down the Bull of Heaven, which is the constellation Taurus, to kill Gilgamesh.
那就是我。
That's me.
我就是金牛座。
I'm Taurus.
是吗？
Are you?
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
不过，接下来这个故事的发展你可能不会喜欢。
Well, you might not like what happens next in this story, though.
为什么？
Why?
因为天牛被派下来要杀死吉尔伽美什。
Because the Bull of Heaven is sent down to kill Gilgamesh.
吉尔伽美什并不是因为屠杀无辜的森林守护者而受罚，而是因为他拒绝了一个性爱之神。
Gilgamesh, he's not being punished for slaughtering the innocent forest guardian, he's being punished for rejecting a sex god.
我觉得他什么都没学到。
I feel like he's learned nothing.
但他现在要对抗一头天界的公牛了。
But he's going to fight now a celestial bull.
玛丽·莱恩，你会怎么对付一头天界的公牛？
Mary Lane, how would you go about defeating a celestial bull?
你可以把它带到天上的神圣屠宰场，在打发时间的时候杀了它。
You take it to a celestial abattoir in the heavens around killing time.
是吗？
Yeah?
用 humane 枪对准它的头。
Humane gun on the head.
好吧。
Okay.
真不愧是地道的农民。
Spoken like a true farmer.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yep.
意思是
Mean It's
一把老式螺栓枪。
a good old bolt.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是
Well, I mean
打进头骨里。
Into the skull.
我的意思是，我不知道那时候他们有没有那种老式螺栓枪。
How does I mean, I don't know if they've got the old bolt gun back then.
我的意思是，穆迪，是的。
I mean, Moudhy, Yes.
你能详细说说
Can you give us the gory details of the
所以他们本质上是合作的，因为天牛是一种极具破坏性的生物。
So they work together, essentially, because the Bull of Heaven is quite a destructive creature.
当它接近乌鲁克时，它所做的每一件事都会导致大量人员死亡——你知道的，每次它呼吸，地面都会裂开巨大的裂缝，吞噬人们等等。
And as he approaches Uruk, everything he does essentially ends up killing huge amounts of people every you know, every time he breathes, a huge gulf opens up in the ground and swallows people up, etcetera.
据我回忆，恩奇都抓住了它，然后吉尔伽美什刺入了它的头部之间
From memory, Enkidu grabs him and then Gilgamesh stabs him in the head between
角之间。
the horns.
所以是的。
So Yeah.
那么这个 bolt gun 很准啊。
Bolt gun's pretty accurate then.
是的。
Yeah.
这次只是用一把剑，或者某种刀具。
Just a sword in this one or or a blade of some kind.
好的。
Okay.
那会是一个非常好的。
It'd be a very good one.
他们挖出了心脏？
They cut out the heart?
是的。
Yes.
他们挖出了心脏。
They cut out the heart.
他们把心脏献给天神安努，然后把他的阴茎扔向伊什塔尔。
They offer it to Anu, the sky god, and then they throw its penis at Ishtar.
我的意思是，这感觉像是一个非常幼稚的举动。
I mean, that feels like a very childish move.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
Quite.
这确实是个大胆的举动。
It's quite the move.
她是掌管爱情、欲望之类的女神。
She's the goddess of, like, love and desire and stuff.
是的。
Yeah.
这会对她产生影响吗？
Does that have an effect on her?
你知道吗，我正努力回想那个场景，但我觉得某种程度上确实有个崇拜这个阴茎的场景，她召集了神庙的信徒，他们好像在说：‘抱歉，阴茎。’
You know, I I'm trying to remember the scene, but I think there is, like, a worship scene of this penis in the temple in to some degree where she gathers temple worshipers, and they're like, sorry, penis.
我提醒你一下阿佛洛狄忒的诞生。
I just remind you of Aphrodite's conception.
是的。
Yes.
当她从克洛诺斯的睾丸中诞生时。
When she's born from the actual testes of Kronos.
没错。
That's right.
是的。
Yeah.
但这里并不是她从那里诞生，而是被扔向她。
But then this is very much not her being born from it, but having it thrown at her.
但这头公牛是安努派下来的，因为伊什塔尔被拒绝了。
But this bull had been sent down by Anu because Ishtar had been rejected.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后他们杀死了公牛，把心脏还给安努，说：给你。
And then they killed the bull, hand the heart back to Anu and go, there you go.
这就是你的公牛的下场。
That's what happens to your bull.
同时，把公牛的阴茎扔向那个提出婚姻的人。
And meanwhile, chuck a bull's penis at the woman who proposed marriage.
这真的非常小气。
Now it's it's very very petty.
确实如此。
It is.
是的。
Yeah.
这简直就像
It's really like
这里在情感上没有任何成长，对吧？
There's no growth here emotionally, is there?
绝对没有。
Definitely not.
这需要
It takes
一段时间才能发生。
a while for that to happen.
所以我认为我是对的。
So I think I was right.
他什么都没学到。
He doesn't learn anything.
他什么都没学会。
He learns nothing.
好的。
Okay.
但要
But to
说实话，我认为在这里，他只是在保护自己，免受一头攻击他的公牛的伤害。
be honest, I suppose here, he's just defending himself from a bull that is attacking him.
但他确实因为这件事让伊什塔尔蒙羞了。
But he did really shame Ishtar for that to happen.
确实如此。
He did.
扔阴茎可不是什么成熟的行为。
Throwing a penis is not a it's not a very grown up move.
得了吧。
Come on.
不行。
No.
咱们都成熟点吧。
Let's all be adults here.
那么吉尔伽美什和恩奇都后来怎么样了？
So then what happens to to Gilgamesh and Enkidu?
所以众神非常愤怒。
So the gods are pretty angry.
我的意思是，他们已经
I mean, they've
可不是嘛。
No kidding.
占满了一个完整的星座，对吧。
Filled a whole constellation Right.
这可不妙。
Which is bad.
他们判处恩奇都死刑，而他确实梦见自己身处冥界。
They sentence Enkidu to death, and he actually dreams of being in the underworld.
那为什么不是吉尔伽美什呢？
So why not Gilgamesh?
因为不行。
Because No.
恩奇都只是那个被拖着走的人。
Enkidu's just like the guy who's been dragged along.
是的
Yeah.
他有点像吉尔伽美什那种典型的、自以为是的人，从来不用为自己的任何行为承担后果。
He's sort of like Gilgamesh is sort of like that typical, like, entitled guy that just never has to face consequences for anything he does.
但他即将面临最终的后果，因为恩奇都确实死了。
But he is about to face the ultimate consequence in a way because Enkidu does die.
他梦见自己身处冥界，并且他死了。
He dreams that he's in the underworld and he and he dies.
吉尔伽美什悲痛欲绝。
And Gilgamesh is utterly grief stricken.
对。
Right.
以至于他都不允许别人把尸体搬走。
To the point where he won't even let them take the body away.
而且有很多描写他哀悼的场景。
And he there's all this imagery of him of him mourning.
而且有些描述将他比作一头母狮。
And some of it compares him to, like, a lioness.
所以有些女性，就像一位母亲哀悼她的幼崽。
So there's, some women like, a woman mourning her cubs.
我的意思是，一头雌狮在哀悼她的幼崽。
I mean, a female lion mourning her cubs.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这真是巨大的损失。
So it's such a loss.
直到一只蛆从恩奇都的鼻子里爬出来，他才终于说：好吧。
He won't let them take the body away until a maggot crawls out of Enkidu's nose, and he's finally like, okay.
是的。
Yes.
你已经死了，我必须放手。
You are dead, and I have to let go.
他为恩奇都举办了一场盛大的葬礼，并列出了无数为纪念恩奇都而赠送的礼物。
And he arranges this huge funeral and lists, you know, tons of gifts given in Enkidu's memory.
哇。
Wow.
所以这是一个非常有力的场景。
So a very powerful scene.
因此，吉尔伽美什因失去他所爱的一切而受到了惩罚。
So Gilgamesh has been punished by having the one thing he loves taken from him.
是的。
Yeah.
玛丽·莱恩，你觉得悲痛的吉尔伽美什在葬礼之后会做什么？
Mary Lane, what do you think Gilgamesh, a grieving Gilgamesh, does after the funeral?
我的意思是，我觉得他根本没学到任何东西。
I mean, I still don't think he's learned anything.
你觉得他从这次经历中成长了吗？
You don't think he's grown from this?
不。
No.
好吧。
Okay.
我觉得他想要复仇。
I think he wants revenge.
哦，所以你觉得他会像《约翰·威克》那样？
Oh, so you think he's gonna go John Wick?
他会去找安努报仇吗？
Would he go after Anu?
哇。
Wow.
那可真是个强势的举动。
That would be a power move.
我的意思是，那
I mean, that's
我倒觉得是。
I'd say.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我
I
我的意思是，我不会觉得这家伙会做出这种事
mean, I wouldn't put it past this
这人。
guy.
好吧。
Okay.
所以玛乔琳认为他这更像是一个复仇行动
So Marjolein thinks that it's sort of revenge mission he's gonna
我的意思是，说实话，如果他真的去搞复仇行动，那可能是他迄今为止在故事中做过最有条理、最连贯的剧情主线了。
I mean, to be honest, if he did go for revenge mission, that would probably be the most, like, coherent structural journey thing he's done so far in the story.
是的。
Yes.
所以也许他并不会这么做。
So maybe he doesn't.
但从逻辑上讲，他会去复仇。
But, coherently, he'd go for revenge.
好的。
Okay.
有意思。
Interesting.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，你说得对，他并没有成长，他没有想着‘我应该少点恶劣，冷静下来’，反而变得极度恐惧死亡，并踏上了追求永生的新征程。
I mean, you're right that there's no growth in that he then instead of being like, I should be less horrible and calm down, he becomes really anxious about death, and he embarks on this new quest to attain immortality.
所以这是一种非常自我中心、焦虑的反应。
So it's quite a self involved, anxious reaction.
他变成了一个科技亿万富翁。
He turns he turns into a tech billionaire.
他觉得，我不想死。
He's like, I don't wanna die.
我要永生。
I'm gonna live forever.
我要下载我的意识。
I'm gonna download my consciousness.
我要获得
I'm gonna get
让我的儿子给我输血，这样我就能永生。
my son to give me his blood so I can live forever.
这很厉害。
That's points.
好的。
Okay.
于是他踏上了寻求永生的旅程。
So he he goes on a quest for immortality.
是的。
Yes.
他去寻找大洪水中仅存的幸存者之一的智慧，那位唯一活着的不朽之人。
And he seeks out the wisdom from one of the sole survivors of the great flood, the only immortal living man.
有一位不朽的女性与他相伴，但可惜的是她并没有被提及。
There's a immortal living woman alongside him that doesn't really But she's not get mentioned, unfortunately.
对。
Yeah.
她只是他的妻子。
She's just she's just his wife.
是的。
Yes.
还有鸟。
And bird.
是的。
Yeah.
差不多。
Pretty much.
所以他去寻找一个名叫乌特纳匹什提的人，在更早的洪水故事版本中，他被称为阿特拉哈西斯，这个名字源自“watrum”（意为巨大或超凡）和“casasu”（意为理解），意味着他极其睿智。
So he's he's he goes in search of a man called Uta Napishti, who is in an earlier version of the flood story called Atrahasis, a name that means he is very wise from the word watrum, which means huge or exceeding, and casasu, which means to understand.
所以他拥有超凡的理解力。
So he's huge of understanding.
好的。
Okay.
在这个故事中，他的名字是乌特纳匹什提。
And Uttarine Pisti is his name in this story.
所以他的新名字是乌鲁克·乌特纳匹什提，但在更古老的神话中，他原本叫阿特拉哈西斯。
So his new name is Uruk Utranapisti, but he used to be Atrahasis in the older myths.
没错。
Exactly.
好的。
Okay.
一切都想起来了。
It's all coming back to us.
洪水传说可能让我们隐约联想到诺亚和《创世记》。
The the flood myths will sort of we might know vaguely from Noah and the book of Genesis.
我想，一个显而易见的问题是，这本书只是抄袭了《吉尔伽美什》的叙事，还是两者都在描述相似的事件？
The the obvious question, I suppose, is is that book just ripping off the Gilgamesh narrative, or are they are they both sort of speaking of similar events?
或者，你知道的，是否存在某种文学上的关联？
Or, you know, is there a kind of literary connection?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我知道《阿特拉哈西斯》这个早期神话与《吉尔伽美什》史诗第十一块泥板中重述的整个故事之间存在文学联系，而更早的苏美尔洪水故事也与此相关。
I mean, I know there's a literary connection between the Atrahasis, earlier Atrahasis myth, and there is also a Sumerian flood story that's even earlier, and the tablet in this Gilgamesh epic, which is tablet 11 that reprises this whole story.
它告诉我们，大致来说，众神根本忘了在人类的DNA中加入死亡机制，因此人口急剧膨胀。
And it tells us that, you know, in broad brushstrokes, the gods forgot basically to build death into human DNA, And so population just explodes.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yeah.
而且太吵了。
And it's just too loud.
他们说，我们睡不着觉。
And they're like, we can't sleep.
我们必须除掉这些人。
We gotta get rid of these people.
所以恩利尔尝试了。
So Enlil tries.
他降下饥荒和瘟疫，但埃亚——在更早的版本中，他被称为恩基。
He sends down famines and plagues, but Eya well, he's called Enkid in this earlier one.
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