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大家好，欢迎收听《你已死于历史》，这是英国广播公司第四台的一档喜剧播客，以严肃的态度讲述历史。
Hello, and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio four comedy podcast that takes history seriously.
我叫格雷格·詹纳。
My name is Greg Jenner.
我是一名公共历史学家、作家和广播主持人。
I'm a public historian, author, and broadcaster.
今天，我们将派出战象，重返古代地中海，深入了解迦太基名将汉尼拔·巴卡。
Today, we're mounting our war elephants and marching back to the ancient Mediterranean to learn all about Carthaginian general, Hannibal Barca.
在我们的行动中，我们有两位非常特别的战友加入。
And joining our campaign, we have two very special comrades in arms.
在历史角落，她是剑桥大学的古代史教授，专攻罗马、北非和腓尼基的历史与考古学。
In history corner, she's professor of ancient history at the University of Cambridge and a specialist on Roman, North African, and Phoenician history and archaeology.
你可能读过她获奖的著作《寻找腓尼基人》，或者她广受好评、提名奖项的新作《西方如何塑造世界：四千年历史》。
You might have read her award winning book, In Search of the Phoenicians, or her best selling award nominated new one, How the World Made the West, A four thousand Year History.
这本书太棒了。
It's brilliant.
这位是约瑟芬·奎因教授。
It's professor Josephine Quinn.
欢迎，乔。
Welcome, Joe.
谢谢你们邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
很高兴你来这儿。
Delighted to have you here.
在喜剧角，他是位喜剧演员、作家和主持人。
And in Comedy Corner, he's a comedian, writer, and presenter.
你一定在《阿波罗现场》、《爱岛》后夜秀、《烤战》、《模拟一周》、《冰上舞蹈》等所有电视节目中见过他，或在广播中听过他在《新闻杰克无插电》、《无限猴子笼》、《黑色标签》中的表现。
You'll have seen him on all the TV shows like Live at the Apollo, Love Island After Sun, Roast Battle, Mock the Week, Dancing on Ice, or heard him on the radio, on News Jack Unplugged, Infinite Monkey Cage, Black Label.
当然，你一定还记得我们在维多利亚时代健美那一期中的他。
And, of course, you remember him from our episode on Victorian bodybuilding.
他是达伦·哈里特。
It's Darren Harriet.
欢迎回来，达伦。
Welcome back, Darren.
谢谢你们邀请我。
Thank you for having me.
达伦，上次你展示了对这个主题惊人的了解。
Darren, last time you demonstrated incredible knowledge in subject.
你简直就是尤金·桑多的专家。
You were basically an expert on Eugene Sandow.
我特别兴奋能来聊聊尤金的事儿。
I was so excited to come in and talk about Eugene's yeah.
我知道，我对健身运动员了解得太多了。
I know so I know so much about bodybuilder.
而且可能一年前，我刚看过一部关于他的纪录片，看了两遍。
And I'd I think maybe like a year before, I'd watched a documentary about him twice.
所以我进来的时候特别自信。
So I came in here so cocky.
我什么都知道，各位。
I know it all, guys.
和今天大不相同。
Very different to today.
对。
Right.
我正想说，古北非的历史？
Was gonna say, the history of ancient North Africa?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
那不是我的专长。
Not really my specialty soft at that.
但我很兴奋。
But I'm I'm excited.
待会儿我会抛出很多问题，各位。
There's gonna be a lot of questions I'm gonna throw at, guys.
好的。
Okay.
汉尼拔这个名字听起来耳熟吗？
Does the name Hannibal ring a bell?
有印象。
It does.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
我知道几个叫汉尼拔的人。
I know I know a couple of Hannibals.
有电视剧里的汉尼拔，还有个喜剧演员。
Hannibals from TV shows, a comedian.
就到此为止了。
It stops there.
好的。
Okay.
汉尼拔·伯雷斯。
Hannibal Buress.
汉尼拔·伯雷斯。
Hannibal Buress.
就是这样。
There we go.
就是这个，是的。
It's yeah.
没错。
That's it.
这就是我的全部了解了。
That's my knowledge.
那你了解些什么呢？
So what do you know?
嗯，这引出了播客的第一个环节。
Well, that brings us to the first segment of the podcast.
这个环节叫‘那你了解些什么’，我会试着猜猜我们可爱的听众对今天的话题了解多少。
It's called the So What Do You Know where I have a go at guessing what our lovely listener might know about today's subject.
当我提到汉尼拔时，你可能会像达伦一样想到电视剧里的人物。
And when I say Hannibal, you might, like Darren, be thinking of TV people.
我想到的是那个叼着雪茄的《勇士团队》的领袖。
I think of the cigar chomping leader of the a team.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
我知道三个。
I know three.
三个关于汉尼拔的引用。
Three three Hannibal references.
更有可能的是，你在想那位著名的虚构连环杀手。
More likely, you're thinking of the famous fictional serial killer.
但今天，我们谈的不是食人的汉尼拔，而是迦太基的汉尼拔。
But today, it's less Hannibal the cannibal and more Hannibal of Carthage.
汉尼拔出现在大量历史小说中，包括罗斯·莱基和本·凯恩的作品。
Hannibal has appeared in a ton of historical novels, including ones by Ross Leckie and Ben Cain.
还出现在几部电影中，比如1959年的《汉尼拔》和2009年的《汉尼拔》。
Several films as well, the 1959 film Annibale and the 2009 film Hannibal.
而且，据称如果范·迪塞尔如愿以偿，我们很快就会看到一部高能的汉尼拔三部曲。
And, apparently, if Vin Diesel gets his way, maybe soon we'll be getting a high octane Hannibal trilogy.
我迫不及待想看一头大象在发夹弯道上漂移。
I can't wait to watch an elephant power drift around a hairpin corner.
这正是我们所有人都想看到的。
That is what we all wanna see.
但虚构背后的真实历史是什么？
But what is the fact behind the fiction?
汉尼拔真的有过大象时代吗？
Did Hannibal really have an elephant era?
一场冰雹改变了历史吗？
Did a hailstorm change history?
让我们来一探究竟。
Let's find out.
没错。
Right.
乔教授，在我们认识汉尼拔之前，我觉得我们可能需要快速了解一下迦太基人。
Professor Joe, before we meet Hannibal, I think we probably need a quick crash course on the Carthaginers.
其实，你知道吗？
Actually, you know what?
我打算让达伦来接话。
I'm gonna turn to Darren and put you on
这个位置。
the spot.
哦，你来说。
Oh, you go.
迦太基在哪里？我给你点提示，在北非。
Where was Carthage in I'll give you North Africa.
是的。
Yeah.
北非。
North Africa.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
我们说的是多北边？
How north are we talking?
相当北边。
Pretty north.
好的。
Okay.
在海上。
On the sea.
在海边？
By the sea?
是的。
Yeah.
这对我帮助不大。
That doesn't really help me.
像埃及那样？
Like Egypt?
在西边。
West of.
西边？
West of?
是的。
Yeah.
埃及以西在哪里？
Where's West Of Egypt?
那不是摩洛哥吗？
Isn't that Morocco?
太靠西了。
Too West.
太靠西了。
Too West.
我要回到乔那里。
I'm going back to Joe.
乔就在正中间。
Joe Right in the middle.
再帮我继续一会儿。
Keep doing it for me for a little bit.
我们可能会在这里待上一个小时。
We could be here for an hour.
它就在正中间。
It's right in the middle.
所以古代迦太基位于现代突尼斯境内。
So ancient Carthage is in modern Tunisia.
实际上，它现在是现代突尼斯市的一个海滨郊区。
It's actually now a sort of seaside suburb of modern Tunis.
真的很美。
Really lovely.
事实上，那里有很多很棒的咖啡馆。
In fact, lots of great cafes there.
但它最初是在公元前九世纪由我们现在称为腓尼基人的人建立的殖民定居点。
But it was originally founded as a colonial settlement in the ninth century BCE by people we now call Phoenicians.
这些水手来自黎凡特地区的港口，也就是现在的黎巴嫩一带。
And these are sailors who were based in the ports of the Levant, so modern Lebanon, more or less.
好的。
Okay.
比如提尔、西顿这些城市。
So, cities like Tyre and Sidon and so on.
我的意思是，考古学家估计，经过一个世纪后，人口大约有三万人，这在当时西地中海地区已经是规模极其庞大的城市了。
I mean, the archaeologists estimate has about 30,000 people after about a century, which would make it an extremely massive city in the Western Mediterranean in that era.
它通过控制西地中海其他港口和海岸线来扩张。
It expands by controlling access to other ports in the Western Mediterranean and to the coast line.
它实际上禁止其他城市在它感兴趣的任何海岸线上航行。
It really kind of forbids other cities from sailing along any of the coastlines that are interesting to it.
后来在它的历史中，它还向内陆扩张，成为北非的一个农业型国家。
And then later on in its history, it actually expands inland as well, becomes a sort of farming state into North Africa.
因此，到公元前四世纪，也就是建国五百年后，迦太基人控制了北非大片领土以及撒丁岛、西西里岛大部分地区和西班牙南部的广大区域。
So by the fourth century BCE, so five hundred years after it's founded, the Carthaginians control territory and trade across a huge swathe of North Africa, but also the islands of Sardinia, most of Sicily, and a lot of Southern Spain as well.
我们来见一下汉尼拔。
Let's meet Hannibal.
他是所有迦太基人中最著名的。
He is the most famous of all the Carthaginians.
你知道，迦太基帝国非常庞大。
You know, we the Carthaginian empire is vast.
你说过，已经五百年了。
You said, know, five hundred years already.
但今天我们来谈谈汉尼拔。
But we're gonna talk about Hannibal today.
他是什么时候出生的？
So when was he born?
他的家庭背景如何？
What was his family background?
他出身高贵吗？
Is he posh?
他是那种出身平民、靠自己奋斗上来的吗？
Is he, you know, is he kind of working class, works his way up?
迦太基是一个寡头共和国。
So Carthage is an oligarchic republic.
所以它有点像罗马。
So it's a bit like Rome.
它有一个公众议会，但掌权的人主要来自一些古老的贵族家族，这就是他的背景。
It's got a public assembly, but it's mostly the people in charge are mostly from fairly ancient aristocratic families, and that's the background.
这就是汉尼拔的背景。
That's Hannibal's background.
所以他出生于二月。
So he's born in February.
他是将军哈米尔卡·巴尔卡的儿子，这位将军曾在第一次布匿战争中对抗罗马。
He's the son of a general called Hamilcar Barker, and this general fought in the first Punic war against Rome.
他有两个兄弟。
He has two brothers.
我们知道这一点。
We know that.
他们叫哈斯德鲁巴尔和马戈。
They're called Hasdrubal and Mago.
他有三个姐妹。
He has three sisters.
没人告诉我们她们的名字。
Nobody bothers to tell us what they're called.
你知道的。
Well, you know.
那是不同的时代。
It's a different time.
汉尼拔出生时，迦太基和罗马之间的这场第一次战争正在发生。
And and what's what's been going on when Hannibal is born is this this first war between Carthage and Rome.
基本上，由于地中海中部的各种政治因素，这两座城市的关系日益紧张，战争在二月爆发。
And basically, the relationship between the two cities gets increasingly strained due to various Central Mediterranean politics, and war breaks out in February.
汉尼拔的父亲哈米尔卡被派往西西里岛，在二月继续这场战争。
Hamilcar, who's Hannibal's father, he's sent to Sicily to prosecute this war in February.
因此，从汉尼拔出生的那一年直到二月，罗马在西西里岛西部的埃吉迪群岛战役中击败了迦太基。
So the same year that Hannibal is born until February, when Rome defeats Carthage at the battle of the Egidae Islands off Western Sicily.
这标志着第一次布匿战争的结束。
And that's the end of the First Punic War.
这是迦太基有史以来第一次重大失败。
It's the first really big defeat ever.
所以这是第一次布匿战争吗？
So this is the First Punic War?
既然这是第一次，说明后面还会有更多次。
The fact it's the first one tells us more are coming.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
好的。
Okay.
所以父亲是哈米尔卡·巴尔卡。
So the dad, Hamilcar Barker.
所以他一直在西西里打仗。
So he's been fighting in Sicily.
是的。
Yeah.
你认为他的儿子在哪里长大？
Where do you think his son grows up?
他的儿子是在西西里长大的吗？
Did his son grow up in Sicily?
我的意思是，这个猜测挺合理的。
I mean, that's a sensible guess.
你不会带着儿子一起去打仗吧，对吧？
Well, you wouldn't take your son with you, would you?
不会。
No.
他在西班牙长大。
He grows up in Spain.
什么？
What?
只是为了保护他吗？
Was that just to protect him?
这样做是为了保护他的家人吗？
Did he did he was that just to protect his family?
他怎么会在西班牙长大？
How'd he grow up Spain?
在
In
不。
No.
因为一旦罗马占领了西西里和撒丁岛，是的。
Because once Rome has taken Sicily and Sardinia Yeah.
基本上，迦太基想做的是巩固其在西班牙南部的势力范围，此前它对该地区已有一些兴趣。
Basically, what Carthage wants to do is consolidate its holdings in Southern Spain, which it's had some level of sort of interest in before that.
但如今，这几乎是它唯一还能扩张而不至于再次与罗马人发生冲突的地方。
But it's really the only place left that it can really expand now without kind of hitting the Romans again.
因此，汉米尔卡——尽管迦太基在第一次布匿战争中失败了，但他的声誉却因这场战争大幅提升，成为迦太基的明星人物。
So Hamilcar, who's really I mean, his reputation is really enhanced by what happened in the first Punic War, even though they lost, he was the big Carthaginian star.
于是，他在二月率军前往西班牙。
So he takes a force to Spain in February.
一旦抵达那里，他就表现得像一位独立的君主。
And once he gets there, he basically acts a bit like an independent prince.
但这一切都是在迦太基元老院许可下进行的。
But it's all with the permission of the Carthaginian senate.
至于汉尼拔为何随行，传说他父亲启程去西班牙时，他才九岁，却恳求加入远征队。
And the reason that Hannibal goes with him I mean, the story goes that he's he's nine years old when his dad leaves to go to Spain, and he begs to join the expedition.
于是他父亲答应了，而他直到45岁才重返迦太基。
And and so his dad lets him, and he doesn't get back to Carthage until he is 45 years old.
哇哦。
Woah.
哇哦。
Woah.
是的。
Yeah.
九岁。
Nine.
什么？
What?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
然后他父亲于1998年2月19日在战场上阵亡。
And then his his dad dies in battle in 02/1998.
这时汉尼拔大约18岁。
Hannibal's about 18 at this point.
显然，他还太年轻，无法统帅军队。
And, obviously, he's too young to take command.
因此，迦太基在西班牙的军队指挥权交给了他的妹夫，名叫哈斯德鲁巴·英俊。
So the command of the Carthinian armies in Spain goes to his brother-in-law, who's called Hasdrubal the Fair.
真是响亮的名字。
Great names.
我的意思是，我们有哈米尔卡、哈斯德鲁巴、汉尼拔，还有另一个，呃，哈斯德鲁巴。
I don't I mean, we've got Hamel Carr Hasdrubal, Hannibal and another I mean, Hasdrubal.
是的。
Yeah.
哈米尔卡·哈斯德鲁巴。
Hamel Carr Hasdrubal.
汉尼拔和哈斯德鲁巴。
Hannibal and Hasdrubal.
达伦，你有在追《卡戴珊家族》吗？
Darren, are you keeping up with the Kardashians?
我超爱这个。
I love that.
是的，我在看第三季。
Yes, I am.
我现在看到第三季了。
I'm on series three.
你觉得兄弟们关系怎么样？
How do you think the brothers get on?
你觉得呢？因为汉尼拔有兄弟，也有姐妹。
How do you think because Hannibal's got brothers, he's got sisters.
你觉得怎么样？
How do reckon?
他们可能彼此不喜欢。
They probably didn't like each other.
很可能存在某种权力斗争。
There's probably a power struggle of some sorts.
年长的接管权力。
Older, taking over.
他年纪足够大，可以打仗了。
He's old enough to fight.
他们都是在西班牙长大的吗？
Did they all grow up in Spain?
很多家族成员似乎都是在西班牙一起长大的。
A lot of the family do seem to kind of grow up in Spain together.
而且他们实际上相处得还不错。
And they actually they kind of get on okay.
哈斯德鲁巴似乎是一个相当不错的哈米尔卡的继任者。
And Hasdrubal seems to be a pretty good replacement for Hamelcar.
我们对汉尼拔在这个时期的具体活动了解不多，但他肯定正在领导一些针对当地部落领土的军事行动。
We don't know very much about what Hannibal's doing in this period, but he's definitely leading some of the military campaigns against some of the local populations into their territory.
他最终成功取代了妹夫，成为伊比利亚的最高指挥官。
He eventually manages to replace his brother-in-law as the supreme commander in Iberia.
你怎么
How do you
认为他是如何做到的？
think he manages it?
他杀了他吗？
Did he kill him?
他没有杀他。
He didn't kill him.
没有。
No.
他杀了吗？
Did he?
他得到了‘没有’。
He gets no.
可怜的老哈斯德鲁巴尔 apparently 被他们的一个盟友暗杀了。
Poor old Hasdrubal gets assassinated by one one of their allies, apparently.
大约在02/22，2021年2月2日。
About 02/22, 02/02/2021.
听起来像典型的罗马人。
Sounds like sounds like a Roman to me.
我的意思是，谁知道呢？
I mean, who knows?
所有这些可能都在幕后进行。
It's all maybe going on behind the scenes.
但真正发生的是，迦太基军队随后推选汉尼拔为他们的新领袖。
But but what happens is that the Carthaginian troops then choose Hannibal as their new leader.
到那时，他26岁了。
By now, he's 26.
这算是相当体面了，而且他得到了迦太基人民的一致认可，甚至被送回了家乡，尽管此时他已经有将近二十年没回过家了。
That's a kind of respectable And he's unanimously confirmed by the Carthaginian people and sent it back at home as well, even though he hasn't been home at this point for almost twenty years.
哦，天哪。
Oh, wow.
他立即开始了征战。
And he starts campaigning straight away.
一年后，他推进到了比哈米尔卡及其继任者哈斯德鲁巴更远的伊比利亚地区。
So after a year, he's moved further into Iberia than either Hamelcar or Hasdrubal after him.
你知道，我们听说他对士兵非常好。
You know, we hear he treats his troops very well.
他也是一个天生的冒险家，是一名出色的士兵。
He's also a natural risk taker, and he's a great soldier.
汉尼拔此时正像许多年轻人一样，度过他的二十多岁，惹恼西班牙当地人，和朋友们四处横行。
Hannibal was now spending his twenties like many lads do, annoying the Spanish locals, rampaging around with his buddies.
然后他与罗马决裂了。
And then he falls out with Rome.
他是怎么跟罗马闹翻的？我的意思是，你看。
How has he fall I mean, look.
来吧。
Come on.
我们知道接下来会发生什么。
We know what's happening next.
但是，这背后的故事到底是什么呢？
But like, what's what's the sort of story here?
好的。
Okay.
在西班牙东海岸有一个叫塞古恩图姆的城镇。
So there's a town called Seguntum on the East Coast Of Spain.
它现在是瓦伦西亚的一个郊区，也是伊博罗河以南最后一个抵抗汉尼拔和迦太基人的据点。
It's now a suburb of Valencia, and it's the last holdout against Hannibal and the Carthaginians south of the Ibro River.
因此，塞古恩提尼人向罗马寻求援助对抗汉尼拔，而罗马正式警告汉尼拔不要侵犯塞古恩图姆，尽管它位于伊博罗河以南。
And so the Saguntines appeal to Rome for support against Hannibal, And Rome officially warns Hannibal to leave Seguntum alone, even though it's South Of The Ebro.
对。
Right.
所以这确实是在汉尼拔的势力范围内。
And so it's really in Hannibal's sphere.
于是他揭穿了他们的虚张声势，仍然围攻了这座城市。
So he calls their bluff, and he besieges the city anyway.
而且你知道，我们听说他亲自参与了战斗。
And, you know, we hear he kind of directly engages with the fighting.
他直到胸部受伤才离开战场，之后不得不去处理另一场叛乱。
He only leaves the battlefield when he takes a wound to the sternum, and he has to go off and deal with another uprising at that point.
哇。
Wow.
好的。
Okay.
所以他稍微挑逗了一下，因为罗马人其实是在说：别动。
So he sort of poked the ball a little bit because you've kind of the Romans are like, don't.
而他却说：我就要动。
And he's like, I'm gonna.
我们现在进入第二次布匿战争，时间是二月。
We now get the second Punic War in February.
也就是说，我们迎来了一个著名的罗马人——西庇阿。
Mean, we get a proper famous Roman now, Scipio.
你能给我们讲讲他吗？
Can you tell us about him?
因此，罗马在公元前218年2月派出了一个使团前往迦太基宣战。
So Rome sent an embassy to Carthage in 02/18 to declare war.
他们最初的计划是派遣一位名叫普布利乌斯·科尔内利乌斯·西庇阿的执政官。
Their initial plan is to send a consul called Publius Cornelius Scipio.
他实际上是那位在西班牙对抗汉尼拔的著名西庇阿的父亲。
And he's actually the father of the famous Scipio to fight Hannibal in Spain.
他们的设想是派遣一位执政官前往西班牙，另一位前往非洲。
And the idea is they're going to send one consul to Spain and another consul to Africa.
于是，两位执政官分别率领罗马军队朝两个方向进军，彻底消除两边的威胁。
So, two consuls take the Roman army in two directions and get rid of the whole threat in both directions.
但接着，汉尼拔再次决定干脆揭穿他们的虚张声势。
But then what happens is that Hannibal, again, basically decides to kind of call their bluff.
他决定亲自入侵意大利，这完全出乎他们的意料。
And he actually decides to invade Italy himself, which they are not expecting.
你知道吗？
You know what?
我真的没想到会这样，太棒了。
I'm really liking I this didn't expect that at all.
这太精彩了。
That was great.
他根本不在乎，是吧？
He doesn't care, does he?
所以他不得不率领部队和大象从西班牙陆路前往意大利。
So he basically has to take his troops and elephants overland from Spain to Italy.
因为此时罗马基本上已经控制了海洋。
Because Rome essentially controls the the sea at this point.
是的
Yeah.
想象一下上战场，你从未见过大象。
Imagine going into battle, you've never seen an elephant.
是的
Yeah.
你可能会想，那是什么？
You're like, what is that?
什么？
What?
那确实很……是的。
That's a very yeah.
我从来没想过这一点。
I never thought of that.
是的
Yeah.
我想我没有看过探索频道。
I guess I don't have Discovery Channel.
他们没法检查这些，他们没法核实这些事情。
They can't check these they can't check these things out.
如果我去打仗，看到一头大象，那会把我吓坏的。
That would terrify terrify me if I went for battle and there's an elephant there.
达伦，有个显而易见的问题。
Darren, obvious question.
你怎么能让一群愤怒的大象翻越群山？
How would you convince a bunch of angry elephants to cross some mountains?
他正从西班牙穿越到意大利。
He's crossing from Spain to Italy.
所以他要翻越阿尔卑斯山。
So he's going over the Alps.
他翻过了比利牛斯山。
He's over the Pyrenees.
比利牛斯山脉。
Pyrenees.
比利牛斯山脉，然后是阿尔卑斯山。
Pyrenees and then the Alps.
这是个非常好的观点。
That's a very good that's a very good point.
花生管用吗？
Do peanuts work?
我见过花生挺管用的。
I've seen peanuts work quite a bit.
也许撒一条花生路——只是开玩笑。
Maybe a trail of pean just joking.
也许有些腰果从山上掉下来。
Maybe some cashews going off the mountain.
每月一万四千吨，沿着数百英里的山路。
14,000 tons per month along hundreds of miles of mountain pathway.
好的。
Okay.
乔，你怎么让大象离开山道呢？
Jo, how do you convince elephants to go off mountain piste?
好的。
Okay.
所以大象真正的问题其实不是山。
So the real problem with the elephants isn't actually the mountains.
大象基本上能应付山地。
The elephants can kind of manage the mountains.
问题是河流。
It's the river.
当它们必须在比利牛斯山脉和阿尔卑斯山脉之间穿越罗讷河时。
It's when he has to cross the Rhone in between the Pyrenees and the Alps.
大象真的很不喜欢过水。
And elephants really don't like crossing water.
所以他必须用木筏搭建一座桥，然后在上面覆盖泥土，让大象以为那是陆地。
So what he has to do is construct a kind of bridge of rafts and then cover it in earth so the elephants think that it's land.
有多少水？
How much water?
但他们会先让雌性大象过河，这样其他大象就会跟着过去。
But then they leave the female elephants on first, so the other elephants will just follow.
所以这也就是，这也就是，就像……
So that's that's also that's also It's like
就像一个夜晚外出一样。
a night out, that is.
最终，他们确实做到了。
So eventually, he they do.
但我们并不知道。
But we don't know.
他带着37头大象离开西伯利亚，而我们真的不知道有多少头最终抵达了意大利。
He leaves Siberia with 37 elephants, and we honestly don't know how many arrive in Italy.
他带着37头出发。
He leaves with 37.
是的。
Yeah.
他到达时带着
And he shows up with
我们不知道，真的不知道，只有两头大象。
We don't we don't don't Two elephants.
一些大象。
Some elephants.
好吧。
Okay.
所以他带着五万名士兵离开伊比利亚，是的。
So he leaves Iberia with 50,000 soldiers Yeah.
步行。
On foot.
9000名骑兵，37头大象。
9,000 cavalry, 37 elephants.
你觉得他带着多少士兵抵达，达伦？
How many soldiers do you think he arrives with, Darren?
我觉得是20000人。
I'm gonna go 20,000.
完全正确。
That's bang on.
哇哦。
Woah.
别开玩笑了。
Come on.
太惊人了。
That's amazing.
据我们所知，乔，他抵达时剩下约20000名士兵和6000名骑兵。
He as far as we can tell, Joe, he arrives 20,000 soldiers left and about 6,000 cavalry.
他损失了超过一半的军队。
He's lost more than half his army.
是的。
Yeah.
然后呢？
And then what?
有没有一支罗马军队在等着伏击他？
Was there a Roman army waiting for him to ambush him?
是的。
Yeah.
确实有，但这并没有给他们带来多少好处，因为他接连取得了惊人的胜利。
There is, but it doesn't do them much good because he has this series of incredible victories.
他在进入意大利的头几个月里，于十一月越过阿尔卑斯山后不久，就在提基努斯战役中获胜。
In his first months in Italy, wins the battle of Ticinus in November, right after he's crossed the Alps.
他在十二月赢得了特雷比亚战役。
He wins the Battle of Trebia in December.
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然后在第二年六月，他在特拉西梅诺湖赢得了一场巨大的战役。
Then the following June, he wins this enormous battle at Lake Trasimene.
所以这一切都令人惊叹。
So this is all kind of Wow.
意大利北部中部地区。
Northern Central Italy.
然后他继续向南进军。
And then he carries on south.
而在公元前217年，他
And in the 2017, there's a
公元前2017年？不，是公元前217年。
02/2000 twenty seventeen BC.
对吧？
Right?
抱歉。
Sorry.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
公元前2017年。
Twenty seventeen BC.
好的。
Okay.
抱歉。
Sorry.
抱歉，不是。
Sorry, no.
不。
No.
在2017年2月，是的。
In the February '17 Yep.
罗马因处于紧急状态而任命了一位临时独裁者，昆图斯·法比乌斯·马克西穆斯，他试图在普利亚地区封锁一条山口，伏击迦太基军队。
Rome has a temporary dictator because it's a state of emergency, Quintus Fabius Maximus, and he tries to block a pass in the Poolia and ambush the Carthaginian army.
但汉尼拔的做法是，将燃烧的火把绑在2000头牛的角上，驱赶它们冲向罗马军队。
But what Hannibal does is that he ties burning brands to the horns of 2,000 cattle and drives them up against the Roman troops.
这样一来就清除了罗马人的防线，所以他
So that gets rid of the Roman So he
点燃活牛并驱赶它们冲向罗马人。
sets fire to live cows and charges them at the Romans.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
他手头上有好多事，是吧？
He's got a lot of on his hands, hasn't he?
我不是。
I'm not.
他做得非常好。
He's he's doing very well.
而且他在意大利还赢得了大量盟友，随后就发生了坎尼会战。
And he also gains loads of allies in Italy, and then comes the Battle of Cannae.
这是罗马人遭遇的最大失败，毫不意外。
And this is the biggest defeat of all for the Romans, unsurprisingly.
然后他们又增加了更多兵力。
And then they've got more troops.
所以罗马拥有七万到八万五千名士兵。
So Rome's got somewhere between seventy and eighty five thousand troops.
此时，迦太基及其盟军共有五万人。
There are 50,000 Carthaginians and allies at this point.
但汉尼拔获胜的原因是他采用了一项极其高明的战术：他故意让军队中央薄弱，诱使罗马军队进攻，同时在两翼部署了强大的骑兵，一边由他的侄子哈诺指挥，另一边由哈斯德鲁巴尔负责。
But the reason that Hannibal wins is he has this amazingly brilliant tactic, which is that he has a deliberately weak center in his army to attract the Romans to attack him in the And then he has cavalry, a very strong cavalry on both wings with one of his nephews and who's called Hanno and another guy called Hasdravil on the other side.
还有另一个。
Another one.
是的。
Yeah.
于是，罗马军队果然冲向他们看到的薄弱中央。
And and so what happens is that the Romans kind of surge into the center where they see the weakness.
随后，他们被骑兵包围了。
And then they're surrounded by the cavalry.
这完全是汉尼拔在战术上的天才之举。
And this is complete and bit of tactical brilliance on Hannibal's part.
罗马军队遭受了极其惨重的损失。
And Rome suffers incredibly heavy losses.
那么从地理上讲，汉尼拔在坎尼大胜之后现在在哪里？
So geographically, where where is he now, Hannibal, after this big win at Cannae?
坎尼战役之后，他在意大利南部。
After Cannae, he's in the South Of Italy.
他离罗马有多近？
So how close is he to Rome?
大约400公里。
About 400 kilometers.
达伦，你呢？
Darren, would you?
你会进军罗马吗？
Would you march on Rome?
我会，我会直接攻入罗马。
You would I would so go into Rome.
我会的，是的。
I would yeah.
我觉得他攻入了罗马，试图接管那里。
I think he went into Rome and just tried to take over.
并试图杀死任何他能杀的人。
And just tried to kill whoever he could kill.
然后放火焚烧了一大群猫，还用小匕首之类的玩意儿。
And then just set fire to so set fire to an to a bunch of cats with, like, little daggers.
它们全都冲了进去。
And they just all ran in there.
乔，他会进军罗马吗？
Joe, does he march on Rome?
因为达伦会。
Because Darren would
不会。
No.
不，他不会。
No, he doesn't.
他不会的。
He doesn't.
我担心他其实非常理智。
I'm afraid he's really sensible.
我的意思是，他为你做的那些事是明智的。
I mean, what he does is Sensible he does for you
是关于他的说法。
said about him.
我其实很震惊他居然没这么做。
I'm I'm actually in shock that he didn't do that.
好吧。
Okay.
但最终，他确实还是进军了罗马。
But eventually, when he so he does eventually march on Rome.
但那是五年后的公元前2年11月。
But it's five years later in 02/11.
汉尼拔直接率军抵达罗马城门，但他并没有发动攻击。
And so Hannibal marches right up to the gates of Rome, but he doesn't attack.
他没有进攻？
He doesn't attack?
他只是在做秀吗？就只是为了展示一下我能到这里？
He just is it just a is it just a show I can do this?
就像，我能随时来这里？
Like, I can I can come here
我想什么时候来就什么时候来？
any any time I want?
不过，后来的罗马史料将这一切描绘成一个可怕的错误。
Well, the later Roman sources make it out to all be a kind of terrible mistake.
当时有一场冰雹，他将其视为不祥之兆，同时他还听说罗马此时正调兵前往西班牙，于是他认为罗马人并没有认真对待他，最终他退缩了。
There's a hailstorm that he takes as an unfavorable omen, and he also hears that Rome is diverting troops to Spain at this point, So he thinks they're not taking him seriously, and he basically chickens out.
但对我来说，这对罗马人来说很重要，因为他们想把他塑造成一个极度迷信的人。
But, I mean, that's quite important to Romans, to make him seem like a really superstitious Yeah.
有点胆小的人。
Kind of scared person.
所以这位是后来的罗马历史学家李维。
So this is a later Roman historian called Livy.
没错。
Exactly.
这是李维对这个故事的版本。
This is Livy Livy's version of the story.
但事实上，我认为更可能的解释是，他从未真正打算征服罗马。
But actually, I think a much more likely way of telling the story is that he never intended to actually conquer Rome.
这任务太大了。
It's much too big a job.
而且，对迦太基来说，占领或摧毁罗马也没有实际利益。
And also, there's no real profit to Carthage in acquiring Rome or destroying it.
我认为整个战役的战略是削弱罗马在意大利乃至整个地中海地区的实力。
I think the strategy behind whole campaign is to reduce Roman power in Italy, and then in the Mediterranean more generally.
基本上，就是把罗马重新关回它的盒子里。
Basically, to put Rome back in its box.
也就是说，汉尼拔最大的不幸是，就在他抵达罗马的那天，罗马人实际上正在城内召集士兵，因为他们正在招募新的军团，而汉尼拔对此一无所知。
I mean, what's the really bad piece of luck for Hannibal is that on the very day that he arrives at Rome, unbeknownst to him, the Romans have actually called a muster of soldiers in the city, because they're recruiting some new legions.
所以，罗马城里满是士兵。
So, Rome is full of soldiers.
你正好赶上了阅兵日。
You got there on the parade day.
你基本上是
You got basically
是的。
yeah.
你正好赶到
You got there
阅兵那天。
on parade day.
这
This is
是历史的一个转折点，我想。
a hinge point in history, I guess.
如果他在那一刻摧毁了罗马，是的。
If he'd crushed Rome at that moment Yeah.
我们可能永远不会有罗马帝国。
We might never have had the Roman Empire.
是的。
Yeah.
好吧。
Okay.
所以，冰雹风暴很可能是一种后来的罗马文学传说之类的。
So the hailstorm is probably a later sort of Roman literary sort of legend or whatever.
是的。
Yeah.
但他没有攻下罗马，结果事情就没顺利发展。
But he doesn't take Rome, and then it doesn't kinda work out.
于是他被困在布鲁提乌姆地区。
So he gets sort of trapped down in Brutium.
是的。
Yeah.
他在那里待了四年。
And he's there for four years.
四年。
Four years.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
这一时期发生的事情是，西庇阿，也就是西庇阿的儿子，哦，
What goes on in this period is that Scipio Scipio the son Oh,
那个好的一个。
the good one.
那个好的一个。
The good one.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
他被选为西班牙的指挥官，并且俘获了。
He gets elected commander in Spain, and he captures.
所以罗马人开始在西班牙取得真正的进展。
So he start they start to the Romans start to make real progress in Spain.
所以，基本上，巴尔卡家族失去了对伊比利亚的控制。
So, basically, the Barcids lose control of Iberia.
西庇阿在西班牙对迦太基人造成了相当大的破坏后，现在将战争带到了北非。
Scipio, having done quite a bit of damage to the Carthaginians in Spain, he now takes the war to North Africa.
于是罗马人实际上入侵了北非，西庇阿在乌提卡附近焚烧了迦太基人的营地，乌提卡位于突尼斯、迦太基以西。
So the Romans actually invade North Africa, and Scipio sets fire to a Carthaginian camp near Utica, which is West Carthage in in Tunisia.
我们现在到了公元前203年2月。
We're in 02/2003 now.
随后，西庇阿在一场战役中击败了迦太基军队，这支军队由另一位哈斯德鲁巴尔率领，唉，又是哈斯德鲁巴尔。
And Scipio then defeats the Carthaginians in battle, a Carthaginian force led by another Hasdrubal, I'm afraid, Hasdrubal.
另一位。
Another one.
到了这个时候，迦太基人求和，并试图把所有责任都推到巴尔卡家族身上。
And at that point, the Carthaginians sue for peace, and they try and blame everything on the bar kids.
当然，他们会这么做。
Of course, they do.
于是西庇阿命令他们撤出高卢、西班牙和意大利。
So Scipio orders them to withdraw from Gaul, Spain, and Italy.
他们必须放弃海军，只准保留20艘船，并支付巨额赔款。
They have to give up their navy apart from 20 ships, and they have to pay a huge fine.
哦。
Oh.
现在，这里就变得有点复杂了。
Now, this this is where it gets a bit tricky.
于是他们暂时接受了这项条约，但尚未正式签署。
So they provisionally accept this treaty, but it hasn't been formally signed off.
就在那时，迦太基长老会议终于召汉尼拔返回非洲。
And at that point, the Council of Carthaginian elders finally summon Hannibal home to Africa.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
所以他已经在意大利打仗十五年了。
So he's been at war in Italy for fifteen years.
对。
Yeah.
然后他突然收到一封信，让他立即回家。
And then suddenly he gets a letter saying, get home.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
回家吧。
Come home.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
随后，迦太基违反了罗马人认为的停战协议，劫掠了罗马的补给船。
And then what happens is that Carthage breaks this, certainly what Rome think is a truce, by looting Roman supply vessels.
就是这样。
There we go.
一些罗马使节在迦太基遭到暴民袭击。
Some Roman envoys get attacked by a mob at Carthage.
长老议会鼓励汉尼拔去进攻西庇阿。
And the Council of Elders encourages Hannibal to go after Scipio.
然后发生了扎马战役，这是罗马最终的重大胜利，是的。
And then you have the Battle of Zama, and this is the final big Roman victory Yeah.
在。
In Yeah.
最终达成了一项和平条约，意味着迦太基此后不得在非洲以外地区发动战争。
There is a final peace treaty, which means that Carthage now can't fight wars outside Africa.
他们必须支付一万塔兰特白银。
They have to pay 10,000 silver talents.
哦，这是一笔巨款。
Oh, It's a amount of money.
他们必须交出所有的战象。
They have to hand over all their elephants.
并且将舰队缩减至十艘船，其余的舰队全部烧毁。
And they have to reduce their fleet to 10 ships, the rest of the fleet burns.
十艘船。
10 ships.
是的。
Yeah.
交出大象，就像一部电影里，一个特立独行的警察不得不交出他的武器一样。
It's handing over your elephants, like, in a in a movie where a sort of maverick cop has to turn
交出枪支。
shielding guns.
就像这样，长官，给你。
It's like There you go, chief.
是的。
Yeah.
抱歉，中士。
Sorry, Sarge.
从那以后，他在历史记录中消失了几年。
He does disappear from the records for a few years after that.
但后来
But then
他回来了。
he comes back.
他回到迦太基从政，你知道，那是他自童年以后就再没回去过的地方。
He comes back to he comes back to politics in Carthage, you know, where he hasn't been since he's a child.
是的。
Yeah.
他成为迦太基的两位沙菲特之一，这两位是迦太基的高级官员。
He becomes one of the two Shophets, who are the two kind of senior magistrates at Carthage.
一月。
January.
但第二年，他与罗马发生了冲突。
But the next year, he gets into trouble with Rome.
到那时，罗马人已经向前推进了。
So the Romans by now have moved on.
他们正在与叙利亚国王、塞琉古国王安条克三世作战。
They're fighting the king of Syria, the the Seleucid king, Antiochus the third.
他们听说汉尼拔正在与安条克接触。
And, they hear that Hannibal is in contact with Antiochus.
尽管
And even though
他无法放下这件事。
He can't let it go.
是的。
Yeah.
尽管西庇阿本人在罗马元老院为汉尼拔辩护，但他们仍相信他在背后密谋。
Even though Scipio himself defends Hannibal in the Roman senate, they believe that he's plotting behind their back.
哇。
Wow.
哦，我猜他内心一定燃着怒火。
Oh, and he was burning inside him, I bet.
太生气了。
Just so angry.
所有那些风浪，还有那一次，一切就开始每况愈下。
All those winds and that one time, everything just goes downhill.
我的意思是，乔，就我们所知，是的。
I mean, so, Joe, in terms of what we know Yeah.
汉尼拔是否与叙利亚的安条克勾结？
Was Hannibal colluding with Antiochus of Syria?
好吧。
Okay.
我们不知道。
We don't know.
但当罗马要求迦太基指控他时，他被宣布为罪犯，随后逃到了安条克的宫廷。
But when Rome asked Carthage to indict him, he's outlawed, and he does flee to Antiochus' court.
是的。
Yeah.
以弗所。
Ephesus.
所以，你
So, you
知道，对。
know Right.
是的。
Yeah.
然后他在安条克与罗马的战争中扮演了次要角色。
And he does then play kind of a minor role in Antiochus' war with Rome.
但后来罗马人击败了塞琉古人，并再次要求他们交出汉尼拔。
But then the Romans defeat the Seleucids, and again, they demand that they give up Hannibal.
他又一次逃走了。
And he escapes again.
他继续向东，最终来到了黑海地区的比提尼亚王国。
He goes further east, and he ends up in the kingdom of Bithynia on the Black Sea.
达伦，你知道汉尼拔最后怎么样了吗？
Darren, do you know what happens to Hannibal in the end?
不知道。
No.
不知道。
No.
我的意思是，他打败了罗马人。
He I mean, he defeats the Romans.
哦，你还在坚持这个说法，是吧？
Oh, you're clinging to that story, aren't you?
听起来真棒。
It just sounds great.
甚至都不是。
It's even no.
我不知道他最后怎么样了。
I don't know what happens to him.
还好吧。
How okay.
他是怎么死的？
How does he die?
我不觉得他是战死的。
I don't think it's gonna be in battle.
好的。
Okay.
我觉得他可能是那种当时很蠢的死法，之类的。
I think I I I just one of those, like, stupid deaths that happened back then or something.
我真的是这么想的，他是不是被动物害死的？
I I that's what I honestly, I really think it was it an animal?
是大象不小心砸到他了吗？
Did an elephant accidentally fall on him?
不是这样的。
That is not what happened.
发生了什么
What what happened
我的新英雄怎么了？
to my new hero?
据称，他随身携带毒药，以防被罗马人俘虏。
Reportedly, he always carried poison with him in case he was captured by the Romans.
哦。
Oh.
所以，他似乎在大约一月份时自杀身亡。
So he the he seems to have died by suicide sometime around January.
这生活真是够精彩的，达伦。
It's quite the life, Darren.
是啊，够精彩的。
Well, quite the life.
是的。
Yeah.
他真是个了不起的旅行者。
He's one one heck of a traveler.
我只是真的很喜欢他从不放弃这一点。
I just I I really like the fact that he just he just wouldn't give up.
他心里一直有着对他们的反感，就是不喜欢他们。
He just always had it in his heart that he just didn't he just didn't like them.
他只是想除掉他们。
He just wanted to get them.
而他差点就做到了。
And he nearly did.
是的。
Yeah.
可怜的人啊。
Oh, poor guy.
迦太基的汉尼拔，真是精彩的一生。
Hannibal of Carthage, quite the career.
细微之处窗口。
The Nuance Window.
好的。
Okay.
现在进入细微之处窗口时间。
Time now for the Nuance Window.
这就是达伦和我坐在指挥帐篷里沉默两分钟，同时昆恩教授登台告诉我们一些关于古代北非的重要知识的时候。
This is where Darren and I sit silently in the command tent to strategize for two minutes while professor Joe takes center stage to tell us something we need to know about ancient North Africa.
我的秒表准备好了。
So my stopwatch is ready.
教授，你请开始吧。
Take it away, professor Quinn.
谢谢。
Thank you.
好的。
Okay.
在经历了这么多男性及其战争之后，我想谈谈一位迦太基女性，她在迦太基与罗马的战争中扮演了重要角色——她先后嫁给了两位努米底亚国王，最终展现出的勇气甚至超越了他们两人。
So, after all these men and all their battles, I want to talk about a Carthaginian woman who played her own important role in the war between Carthage and Rome by marrying not one, but two Numidian kings, and in the end, proved braver than both of them.
索菲昂巴是一位贵族出身的迦太基女性，在她自己的语言中名叫萨法姆巴尔。
So, Sophonisba was an aristocratic Carthaginian woman, Saffambaal in her own language.
据说她美丽聪慧、通晓音乐，是将军哈斯德鲁巴尔·迪斯科的女儿，我们曾见过他在公元前203年被罗马人击败。
We hear that she was beautiful, learned, musical, She was the daughter of the general Hasdrubal Disco, who we've seen being defeated by the Romans in 02/2003.
据记载，公元前206年，她原本与当地的努米底亚国王马西尼萨订婚，他统治着迦太基领土之外的内陆地区，即如今突尼斯的大部分区域。
What we're told is that in 02/2006, she had been engaged to the local Numidian king, Massinissa, and he controlled the inland region beyond Carthaginian territory, in a lot of what's now Tunisia.
然而，迦太基元老院却命令她改嫁他的对手西法克斯，而西法克斯则从君士坦丁附近的基特尔姆统治着如今阿尔及利亚的大部分地区。
The Carthaginian Senate, though, ordered her to marry his rival Syphax instead, and Syphax ruled most of what's now Algeria from Kytherm, on Constantine.
西法克斯被视作迦太基更重要的战略盟友，远胜于马西尼萨。
Syphax was considered a more important strategic ally to Carthage than Massinissa.
索菲昂巴接受了这一决定，但马西尼萨并不高兴。
And Sophonisba accepted this decision, but Massinissa wasn't happy.
据说，正是这件事促使他转而支持罗马，将他的精锐骑兵投向罗马一方，而非迦太基。
And this is supposedly what persuaded him to throw his support and his crack cavalry behind Rome instead of Carthage.
这对罗马最终在扎马战役中的胜利至关重要。
And this was absolutely crucial for Rome's eventual victory at Zama.
与此同时，索菲昂巴说服了她的新丈夫西法克斯在战争的最后阶段继续支持迦太基。
Meanwhile, Sophonisba had persuaded her new husband, Syphax, to stick with Carthage in the final stages of the war.
但最终，在西庇阿在公元前203年借助马西尼萨的帮助击败了哈斯德鲁巴·迪斯科后，马西尼萨又在罗马援助下对西法克斯取得了决定性胜利。
But in the end, after Scipio defeated Hasdrubal Disko in 02/2003 with Massinissa's help, Massinissa himself wins a decisive victory over Syphax with Roman help.
他俘虏了另一位国王，前往迦太基接管他的宫殿和妻子。
And he takes the other king prisoner, and he comes to Cairta to take possession of his palace and his wife.
于是，索菲昂巴和马西尼萨终于结婚了。
And so, Sophonisba and Massenissa finally marry.
但当罗马将军西庇阿得知索菲昂巴在对抗罗马的策略中发挥了决定性作用后，他要求马西尼萨将她作为俘虏交出来。
But when Scipio, when the Roman general finds out that Sophonisba had played a decisive role calculations against Rome, he demands that Massinissa turn her over to him as a prisoner.
这绝不可能发生。
And that's not going to happen.
因此，马西尼萨转而向他的新妻子献上一杯毒酒，她勇敢地饮下，随后马西尼萨将她的遗体交给了西庇阿。
So, instead, Massinissa offers his new bride a cup of poison, which she courageously drinks, and then he takes Scipio her corpse.
我得说，他可能也没太生气，因为之后他还做了罗马五十年的盟友。
I have to say, he can't have been too upset though, because he then remains an ally of Rome for fifty years.
这就是男人啊。
So that's men for you.
真是个精彩的故事。
What a story.
哇。
Wow.
谢谢你，乔。
Thank you, Joe.
我的意思是，索菲昂巴，她确实玩了一场非常危险的游戏，而且
I mean, Sophonisba, she really I mean, she played quite a dangerous game there and
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，她出现在所有发生事件的房间里。
I mean, she was in all the rooms where it happened.
对。
Right.
你刚才说的是，她知道那是毒药吗，还是他？是的。
Did you say did she know it was poison or did he Yeah.
她知道。
She knew.
她知道。
She knew.
她知道。
She knew.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
她完全知情
She was absolutely in on
是的。
it.
是的。
Yeah.
她和他一样，不想再做罗马的囚徒。
She didn't want to be a prisoner of Rome any more than he did.
哇。
Wow.
她当时问：‘你打算接受吗？’
She was like, are you gonna take it?
我说：‘不。’
I said, no.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
之后。
Afterwards.
我先给你，然后
I'll I'll you first and then
其实我刚刷过牙。
I've just cleaned my teeth, actually.
不想，是的。
Don't wanna Yeah.
谢谢
Thank
非常感谢你，达伦。
you so much, Darren.
当然，非常感谢乔教授。
And, of course, thank you so much, professor Joe.
听众朋友们，如果你们想了解更多达伦的内容，当然可以收听关于维多利亚时代健美运动的那期节目。
Listener, if you want more from Darren, of course, check out the episode on Victorian bodybuilding.
那期节目也非常有趣。
That was also huge fun.
关于历史上那些勇敢的将军，我们还有关于圣女贞德、尤利乌斯·凯撒、年轻的尤利乌斯·凯撒，还有罗伯特·布鲁斯的节目。
For more plucky generals from history, we've got episodes on Joan of Arc, Julius Caesar, the younger well, young Julius Caesar, Robert Bruce, of course.
别忘了，如果你喜欢这个播客，请分享给朋友们。
And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with friends.
我想特别感谢我们在《历史角落》的嘉宾们。
I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner.
我们邀请到了来自剑桥大学的杰出教授约瑟芬·奎恩。
We have the amazing professor Josephine Quinn from the University of Cambridge.
谢谢你，乔。
Thank you, Joe.
这真是一次愉快的经历。
It's been a pleasure.
谢谢。
Thank you.
在喜剧角落，
And in Comedy Corner,
我们有
we have
才华横溢的达伦·哈里特。
the dazzling Darren Harriet.
非常感谢你，达伦。
Thank you so much, Darren.
非常感谢你们邀请我。
Thank you so much for having me.
我太喜欢了。
Loved it.
还有你，亲爱的听众，下次请和我一起攻克另一个棘手的历史话题。
And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we lay siege to another tricky historical topic.
但现在，我得去教大象滑雪了。
But for now, must go and teach elephants how to ski.
冬奥会，我们来了。
Winter Olympics, here we come.
再见。
Bye.
《你已对我死亡》是BBC Studios为BBC广播四台制作的节目。
You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios production for BBC Radio four.
我是罗里·斯图尔特，我想谈谈英雄。
I'm Rory Stewart, and I want to talk about heroes.
小时候，我幻想自己拥有一个英雄般的未来，我会成就伟业，并在30岁前为崇高事业献出生命。
When I was a child, I imagined a heroic future for myself in which I would achieve great things and die sacrificing my life for a noble cause before I was 30.
但我在中东和政坛的经历让我意识到，我对英雄主义的理解存在根本性错误。
But my experiences in The Middle East and in politics showed me that there was something deeply wrong with my idea of heroism.
来自BBC广播四台，我的播客《英雄的漫长历史》探讨了不同历史时期英雄的含义。
From BBC Radio four, my podcast, The Long History of Heroism, explores ideas of what it meant to be a hero through time.
这些观念是如何变化的？
How have these ideas changed?
我们今天需要什么样的英雄？
Who are the heroes we need today?
收听罗里·斯图尔特的《英雄的漫长历史》，首播于BBC Sounds。
Listen to Rory Stewart, The Long History of Heroism, first on BBC Sounds.
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