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This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.
我是尼娜·克鲁舍娃，苏联1962年领导人尼基塔·赫鲁晓夫的孙女。
I am Nina Krusheva, the great granddaughter of Nikita Khrushchev, the leader of the Soviet Union in 1962.
我是马克斯·肯尼迪，美国总统约翰·F·肯尼迪的侄子。
And I'm Max Kennedy, the nephew of US President John F.
肯尼迪。
Kennedy.
我们探索这段令人恐惧的历史时刻。
We explore what was a terrifying moment in history.
古巴导弹危机的故事。
The story of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
世界曾多么接近核战争。
How close the world came to nuclear war.
以及他们不得不采取什么措施将局势从边缘拉回。
And what they had to do to pull it back from the brink.
炸弹、肯尼迪和赫鲁晓夫。
The bomb, Kennedy and Khrushchev.
所有集数现已上线，可在您收听BBC播客的任何平台收听。
All episodes available now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
如果有一个巨大的红色按钮能直接摧毁互联网，我会用额头撞碎它。
If there was a big red button that would just demolish the Internet, I would smash that button with my forehead.
来自BBC，这是《界面》节目，探讨科技如何重塑您的每周生活与整个世界。
From the BBC, this is the Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.
这与季度收益或科技评测无关。
This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.
它关注的是科技实际上如何影响您的工作、政治、日常生活，以及人们使用互联网的各种奇特方式。
It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life, and all the bizarre ways people are using the Internet.
在bbc.com或您收听播客的任何平台收听。
Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
你好，欢迎收听《你已逝去》，这是一档严肃对待历史的BBC第四电台喜剧播客。
Hello, and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the radio four comedy podcast that takes history seriously.
我叫格雷格·詹纳。
My name is Greg Jenner.
我是一名公共历史学家、作家和广播员。
I'm a public historian, author, and broadcaster.
今天，我们将穿上舞会礼服，前往17世纪的法国，了解路易十四那位不太出名却更加华丽的弟弟——奥尔良公爵菲利普。
And today, we are slipping into our ballgowns and sauntering over to seventeenth century France to learn all about Louis the fourteenth's less famous but more fabulous brother, Philippe duke d'Orleans.
为了帮助我们，我们邀请了两位特别的嘉宾。
And to help us, we have two very special guests.
在历史角落，他是曼彻斯特都会大学的历史系高级讲师，专攻早期现代法国贵族及其邻国的历史。
In History Corner, he's a senior lecturer in history at Manchester Metropolitan University, where he specializes in the aristocracy of early modern France and its neighbors.
幸运的是，他还精通王室宫廷，并著有《先生：法国君主制中的次子》。
Luckily for us, he's also an expert on royal courts and is the author of Monsieur, Second Sons in the Monarchy of France.
他是乔纳森·斯潘格勒博士。
Is doctor Jonathan Spangler.
欢迎你，乔纳森。
Welcome, Jonathan.
你好。
Hello.
谢谢。
Thanks.
今天能来这里真是太好了。
It's great to be here today.
很高兴你来到这里。
Delighted to have you here.
在喜剧角落。
And in Comedy Corner.
他是一位顶尖的喜剧演员、作家和主持人。
He's a top class comedian, writer, and presenter.
你一定在很多喜剧电视节目中见过他，还有《烘焙大赛》《Extra Slice》《学徒》和《你被解雇了》。
You'll know him from loads of comedy TV shows as well as from Bake Off and Extra Slice, The Apprentice, You're Fired.
也许你读过他那本幽默的回忆录《无耻》和《太多》。
Maybe you've read his hilarious memoirs, No Shame and Too Much.
或者你可能听过他的播客，比如《志同道合的朋友》和《悠闲时光》。
Or perhaps you've listened to one of his podcasts, Like Minded Friends and Pottering.
他就是汤姆·艾伦。
It's Tom Allen.
欢迎来到节目，汤姆。
Welcome to the show, Tom.
哦，格雷格。
Oh, Greg.
谢谢您如此热情的欢迎。
Thank you for that lovely welcome.
能来到这里我特别兴奋，尤其是和乔纳森一起，他的专业领域正是我感兴趣的。
I'm so excited to be here, especially with Jonathan whose speciality is exactly what I'm interested in.
北欧各地贵族家庭的次子们。
Second sons in aristocracies across Northern Europe.
实际上，我觉得任何形式的贵族生活都行，因为我一直幻想自己是个贵族。
Actually, any kind of aristocratic life, I think, because I've always fancied myself as an aristocrat.
哦，真的吗？
Oh, really?
是的。
Yeah.
这有点遗憾，因为我是在布罗姆利的一所综合学校上学的。
Which is unfortunate considering I went to a comprehensive school in Bromley.
但令我的家人和朋友失望的是，我经常试图假装自己是个贵族，结果很快就被打回原形。
So but much to my family and friends' chagrin, I've I've often tried to try to pretend I'm an aristocrat and I'm being very quickly knocked down.
也许今天会不一样了。
Maybe that'll change today.
我的意思是，你穿得非常漂亮。
Well, I mean, you dress beautifully.
所以我认为，至少在外表上，你肯定通过了考验。
So I think you certainly you've certainly passed muster on the on the looks.
我们要出去了
We're going out
在BBC上，对吧？
on the BBC, aren't we?
是的。
We are.
我们有些人喜欢在这家广播公司保持标准。
Some of us like to keep standards on this broadcasting corporation.
所以我觉得，如果所有Radio 4的主持人和播音员都还穿着晚礼服，我会很喜欢的。
So I I think I would like it if all Radio four presenters and and announcers still wore a dinner jacket.
好的。
Right.
我真的很抱歉。
I'm so sorry.
我不该，格雷格，我给搞砸了
I don't Greg, I spoil
对听众来说。
it for the listener.
我正想说，很高兴你一直坚持这个传统，格雷格。
Was gonna say, I'm so glad you've stuck to that tradition, Greg.
我穿着一件
And I'm in a
礼服裙。
ball gown.
汤姆，你喜欢历史吗？
Tom, are you a history lover?
你喜欢历史吗？
Do you enjoy history?
我一直都很喜欢历史。
I have always loved history.
我上大学时差点就选了历史专业，但那时我太早熟了，就像任何法国贵族的次子一样，觉得我不需要它。
I almost did it at university, but then rather precociously, like a second son of any French aristocrat, decided I didn't need it.
那你没去学吗？
So didn't you go?
但我差点去剑桥的克莱尔学院面试。
But I nearly I went to interview at Clare College in Cambridge.
哦。
Oh.
当然，我申请那里是因为我觉得那座建筑最漂亮，像任何傻瓜一样，还申请了那里非常热门的课程，却根本不知道自己在做什么，结果被狠狠拒绝了。
Of course, applied there because I I thought it was the nicest building, as any fool would, and applied for a very popular course there, and did not know what I was doing and was very roundly rejected.
但那件事让我有点泄气，所以我决定转而追求演艺事业，我想这可能是对的。
But, and that sort of put me off a bit, and so I think I decided to pursue showbiz instead, which I think probably was the right thing.
我并不是那么严肃，但我热爱，我热爱，我热爱任何形式的历史，而且我和乔纳森其实已经聊过我们最喜欢的歷史电影了。
I'm not that serious, but I love I love, I love, I love any kind of history, and I like we've already been talking, actually, Jonathan and I, about favorite historical films.
是的。
So Yeah.
我的是《疯狂的乔治王》。
And mine being The Madness of King George.
我的也是。
And mine.
哦，真的吗？
Oh, I think Really?
那是你最喜欢的。
It's your favorite.
确实如此。
It really is.
这是一部出色的电影。
It is a brilliant movie.
好的。
Okay.
就是那种对细节的关注。
Just that attention to detail.
是的。
Yeah.
非常如此。
Very much.
最棒的台词是，我可以去吗？是的？
The best line can I go Yes?
是当鲁珀特·埃弗雷特，我想，一开始说：哦，看来我是奥斯纳布吕克主教。
Is when Rupert Everett, I think, at the very beginning says, oh, it appears I'm Bishop of Osnabruck.
这真是个有趣的说法。
It's a it's a funny what one is.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
那你了解什么？
So what do you know?
这就是《那你了解什么？》
This is the So What Do You Know?
这是
This is
我想，我们可爱的听众可能对今天的话题有所了解，而菲利普最出名的可能是那些关于他哥哥路易国王的奢华戏剧。
where I guess what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject, and Philippe is perhaps best known for lavish dramas about his brother, Louis, King Louis.
在电影《小小混沌》中，菲利普由风度翩翩的斯坦利·图奇饰演。
In the film, A Little Chaos, Philippe is played by a suave, Stanley Tucci.
在《铁面人》中，他和路易被重新设定为双胞胎，均由莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥饰演。
In The Man and the Iron Mask, he and Louis are reimagined as twins and both played by Leonardo DiCaprio.
但我个人最喜爱的，当然是BBC播出的电视剧《凡尔赛》，我作为BBC二台《凡尔赛内幕》的联合主持人，每周都与凯特·威廉姆斯教授一起讨论这部剧。
But my personal fave, of course, is the TV drama Versailles, shown on the BBC, which I got to discuss every week as the cohost of BBC Two's Inside Versailles with Professor Kate Williams.
你好。
Bonjour.
但菲利普是否不仅仅是路易国王那个混乱的小弟弟呢？
But was Philippe more than just King Louis' chaotic little brother?
作为备选继承人长大是什么感觉？
What's it like to grow up as the spare?
一段三人关系究竟能维持多久？
And how long can you really keep a menage a trois going?
让我们来了解一下。
Let's find out.
对。
Right.
乔纳森博士，我们从头开始。
Doctor Jonathan, let's start at the start.
当小王子菲利普出生时，他的父母是谁？
When little Prince Philippe was born, who were his parents?
大概是国王和王后吧。
Presumably, kings, queens.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
That's right.
所以如果你是王子，通常你的父母就是国王和王后。
So if you're a prince, generally, your your parents are a king and a queen.
在这种情况下，法国通常很无聊，因为他们总是选用路易这个名字。
And in this case, France is often very boring in that they always choose the name Louis.
所以他的父亲名叫路易十三世。
So his father's name is Louis the thirteenth.
他的母亲是奥地利的安妮，这有点令人困惑，因为她其实来自西班牙。
His mother's name is Anne of Austria, which is a bit confusing because she's from Spain.
哦。
Oh.
但奥地利王室统治着西班牙，所以哦。
But the house of Austria governs in Spain, and so Oh.
他们用法语称她为安妮·德·特里尚。
That's the the way they call her, Anne deux Trichen in French.
所以路易和安妮是他的父母。
So Louis and Anne are his parents.
他出生于1640年，正好在17世纪中期，他有一个哥哥，后来被称为路易十四世。
He's born in 1640, right in the middle of the seventeenth century almost, and he had an older brother who was called Louis the fourteenth eventually.
但当时，他被称为王太子。
But at the time, he's called the Dauphin.
我认为我们从一开始就需要澄清的是，菲利普和路易都是在父母结婚十五年后才出生的。
One the things I think we need to put in context right at the very beginning is the fact that Philippe and Louis were both born after over fifteen years of marriage for his parents.
因此，在1638年路易十四出生时，人们视之为奇迹，自然称他为‘天赐之子’。
And so there was this miracle moment in 1638 when Louis the fourteenth is born, and so they, of course, name him Le Dieu Donne, which is the god given son.
哦，真美好。
Oh, how lovely.
实际上，人们也曾这样形容我。
That's what people said about me, actually.
我想，这确实是一个非凡的降临世间的方式。
Well, it's it's quite an entrance into the world, I think.
我本来想问你，汤姆，你有个兄弟。
What I was gonna ask, Tom, you have a brother.
如果你的兄弟被称为‘天赐之子’，你会有什么感受？
If your brother had been called the god given son, how would you feel about that?
其实我是长子。
Well, I am the eldest, actually.
所以你是那个神赐的
So you're the god
儿子吗？
given son?
神赐的孩子。
The god given one.
而我
And I
我出生在父母结婚十年之后。
was born after ten years of my parents' pregnancy.
哦。
Oh.
所以我和他显然很相似。
So I'm very similar, obviously.
汤姆，你认为安妮女王和路易十三世为什么花了二十三年才怀上孩子？
Tom, why do you think it took Queen Anne and King Louis the thirteenth twenty three years to conceive?
也许只是没那方面兴趣。
Maybe just not into it.
人们当时都很忙。
People were busy.
你知道的，人各有各的爱好。
You know, you've hobbies.
或者，说起来容易，但他是不是同性恋？
Or or Well, it's an easy it's an easy one to say, but was he homosexual?
或者他们俩都是同性恋？
Or maybe they were both homosexual?
或者他们俩都是？
Or maybe they were both?
我的意思是，历史学家通常会用‘虔诚’这个词来解释。
I mean, pious is the word historians usually go with.
嗯，是的。
Well, yes.
或者他是同性恋。
Or homosexual.
有些人认为路易十三更喜欢男孩。
There are there are some who thought that Louis the thirteenth did prefer boys.
他与几位地位较低的男性有过长期关系，通常是马厩里的仆人或贴身侍从之类的人。
And there are several long relationships that he has with men of lower rank, somebody usually from the stables or a valet de chambra or something.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It's true.
听起来像我曾经看过的一部电影。
Sounds like a film I once saw.
但虔诚确实是常用的说法。
But piety is certainly the word.
我认为越来越多的心理历史学家开始认为，实际上路易十三极度虔诚，甚至无法与女性同处一室，更不用说他的妻子了。
And I think more and more psycho historians have gone and said, well, actually, Louis the thirteenth was just cripplingly pious and couldn't really be in the same room with women, much less his wife.
乔纳森，心理历史学家是指研究心理学历史的人，而不是拿着刀在走廊里乱跑的人吗？
Jonathan, a psycho historian is a historian of of psychology, not someone with a knife running down the corridors?
对。
Right.
不是。
No.
那是一种潮流。
It was a trend.
这是上世纪七十年代、八十年代历史学家中的一种趋势，当时人们试图运用心理学的新工具来分析历史人物。
It was one of the historians' trends in the nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties, really, where people were trying to use the new tools of psychology and applying them to historical figures.
他们俩在15岁时就结婚了。
They were both married when they were 15.
所以，我想，给他们一点理解，他们可能只是吓得要命。
So, I mean, to give them a bit of of credit, I think they were just probably terrified.
所以，是的，花了相当长的时间。
So, yeah, it took quite some time.
而且，据一个说法，一位修女不得不劝说他，说：你看。
And and, apparently, according to one story, a nun had to sort of convince him and say, look.
这是你的职责。
This is your job.
试着，你知道的，去做这件事。
Try to, you know, do this.
修女们的情况有多糟？
How bad are things going for nuns?
而且
And
然后，那个被很多人反复重复的流行说法是，有一晚下了一场大暴雨。
then the the the kind of popular story that a lot of people repeat again and again is that one night, there was a big rainstorm.
所以路易十三当时正在外出打猎，从一个狩猎小屋前往另一个，却无法到达目的地。
So Louis the thirteenth was out hunting, passing through Paris from one hunting lodge to another, and couldn't get where he was going.
所以他就在巴黎中心的卢浮宫停了下来，但没人知道他会来。
So he stopped in the in the Louvre right in the middle of Paris, but nobody knew he was coming.
因此他们还没来得及为他准备房间。
So they hadn't prepared his rooms.
当时王后已经在那儿，而且有一张床，于是他就和她睡在一起。
So the queen was already there and had a bed, and so he slept with her.
结果，九个月后。
And voila, nine months later
这还挺浪漫的。
It's quite romantic.
哇。
Wow.
真浪漫。
So romantic.
但卢浮宫里还发生了别的事。
Yet something else taken at the Louvre.
然后菲利普是在什么之后出生的？
And then Philippe is born after what?
他们只是，哦，你可能还需要一个？
They just they're like, oh, you probably need another one?
是的。
Yeah.
我想是的。
I suppose so.
但还有另一个八卦传闻，说有个叫朱利奥·马扎里尼的意大利冒险家到访，有些人认为菲利普可能是他的孩子。
But there is another gossip story there that there's an Italian adventurer called Giulio Mazzarini who arrives, and some people have thought Philippe was maybe his child.
哦，真的吗？
Oh, really?
所以，即使是作为备用的年轻王子菲利普，你知道的，作为次子，但他仍然是王子，想必他接受的是非常尊贵的教养。
So even as a spare, young prince Philippe, you know, the second son, but he's still a prince, he's having, presumably, a very prestigious upbringing.
他接受的教育是为了成为国王，还是他接受了不同的教育？
He's he's going to be educated to be a king, or does he get a different education?
因为他接受的是成为国王的教育，因为在十七世纪，婴儿常常在出生一两年后，甚至九岁或十岁前就夭折了。
Well, he's being educated to be a king because in the seventeenth century, infants often died after only a year or two or or or nine or 10.
所以菲利普一直被称为备选继承人。
So Philippe was always called the spare.
他始终是下一个继承人。
He was always the the next one in line.
因此他必须接受同样的培养。
So he had to be raised the same way.
他们请了女家庭教师。
They had a governess.
他们请了家庭教师。
They had tutors.
他们学习骑马、击剑、军事历史和军事战略，诸如此类的内容。
They had horse riding, fencing, military history, military strategy, that that sort of thing.
与此同时，始终存在一定的限制，因为路易十四始终是第一顺位，而菲利普无论何时都必须对他表示顺从。
At the same time, there was always a bit of a limit in that Louis the fourteenth was always the first, and Philippe always had to defer to him no matter what.
所以他们从一开始就被设定好了心理上的关系。
So their their psychological relationship was set up from the very, very start.
当你说到‘顺从’，这在日常生活中具体意味着什么？
And when you say defer, what would that have meant on a day to day?
这意味着，如果路易十四站起来——我们姑且称他为太子吧。
Well, it would have meant that if Louis the fourteenth stood up, well, let's call him the dauphin.
路易一站起来，菲利普就必须跟着站起来。
Louis stood up, Philippe would have had to stand up.
我是说，就是这种事。
I mean, that kind of thing.
对。
Right.
但我们也有故事说，他们小时候会互相扔东西，在地上打闹。
But we also have stories of them being boys and throwing things at each other and and, you know, fighting on the floor.
然后菲利普会被责备，因为你不能打你的哥哥。
And then he's Philippe is chided because you can't strike your older brother.
他是法国的王太子。
He is the dauphin of France.
我的意思是，你能想象吗？
That's I mean, can you imagine that?
妈妈，他
Mom, he
我跟你说过了。
I told you.
是的。
Yeah.
悲剧很早就降临在这两个男孩身上了。
Tragedy strikes very young for these two boys.
我的意思是，法国失去了它的国王。
I mean, France is France loses its king.
对吧？
Right?
路易十三去世了。
Louis the thirteenth dies.
孩子们分别是四岁和三岁？
The boys are four, three?
对。
Right.
所以一个是四岁，一个是三岁。
So four years old and and three years old.
他们之间的年龄差距大约是两岁。
The gap is about two altogether.
但他们都还是孩子，而当时是十七世纪中期。
But so they're both children, and it's the middle of the seventeenth century.
当时与德国和西班牙的战争正在激烈进行。
There are wars raging both with Germany and Spain.
法国已经打了十多年仗，他们的母亲奥地利的安妮在马萨林红衣主教的辅佐下试图掌控政权。
France has been at war for over ten years, and their mother, Anne of Austria, tries to take the reins of government with cardinal Mazarin by her side.
但旧精英阶层，那些王子和公爵们，根本不希望这样。
But the old elites, the princes, the dukes, they don't wanna have anything of that.
他们认为自己也应该掌管政府。
They think they should be running the government as well.
于是他们发动了一场叛乱，一场被称为投石党运动的内战，局势变得如此可怕，以至于安妮一度带着两个孩子逃离城市，前往巴黎西部的圣日耳曼避难。
So they stage a battle, a civil war, called the Fronde in France, and it gets to be so scary that at one point, Anne takes the boys and just escapes the countryside to Saint Germain and Lay in the western parts of Paris.
因此，许多研究这两位男孩童年创伤的人认为，这是他们成长过程中一个极其戏剧性的时刻，我觉得是这样。
So a lot of people who have tried to look at the trauma of these two kids, these two boys, see this is a quite dramatic moment in their upbringing, I think.
因为投石党运动发生的同时，英格兰也爆发了内战。
Because the front is happening at the same time as the the English civil war.
我本来想说，我们说的是不是同一个时期？
I was gonna say, was that around about the same time we're talking
大概是1640年代，对吧？
about sixteen forties, aren't we?
是的。
Yeah.
1648年。
1648.
完全一样。
Exactly the same.
与此同时，英国正经历一场残酷的内战，但法国也同样在发生。
So meanwhile in Britain, there's a horrible violent civil war, but it's happening in France too.
没错。
Right.
时间点真的惊人地吻合：就在议会和叛乱愈演愈烈之际，查理一世于1649年1月被处决。
And the dates really line up amazingly because just when the Parlement and the the rebellion is getting really, really strong, Charles the first is executed, January 1649.
是的。
Yes.
我认为，正是这时法国王室开始意识到，我们必须认真审视这里发生的一切。
And that's, I think, when the French monarchy says, you know, we we gotta really consider what's going on here.
而他们，正是你们的至亲表亲。
And and those are their, you know, very first cousins.
非常接近。
Really close.
而且
And
有人暗示国王将会被逮捕，也就是路易会被抓。
and there is a suggestion that the king will be seized, that, know, Louis will be seized.
菲利普一度病倒，被落在了后面。
Philippe falls ill at one point, and he gets left behind.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
于是又一重创伤叠加在另一重创伤之上。
So another trauma on top of a trauma.
天哪。
My goodness.
另一个在背景中若隐若现、我认为我们不应忘记的角色是路易十三的弟弟。
The other character that was who's revolving around in the background that I think we shouldn't forget is Louis the thirteenth's younger brother.
所以这一切还有另一代人。
So there's another generation of all this.
加斯东还活着。
Gaston is still alive.
加斯东风度翩翩，惹人喜爱。
Gaston is dashing and lovely.
他是我最喜欢的人物之一。
He's one of my favorites.
但他确实是这次叛乱的领头人。
But he is he is at the head of this rebellion.
虽然不想把所有事情都归到流行文化里，但他是《三个火枪手》里的那个人吗？
And Not to put everything into popular culture, but is he the one in The Three Musketeers?
其实我不是在说这个
I'm actually not talking
关于他，很可能就是他。
about He probably is.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得我没有想到那本小说。
I think I'm not thinking of the novel.
我实际上想到的是
I'm actually thinking
我想到的是电影。
I'm of the movies.
那个动画片。
The the cartoon.
我想的是《犬牙》。
I think of Dogtanion.
《犬牙》。
Dogtanion.
是的。
Yeah.
那部著名的纪录片。
That famous documentary.
是的。
Yeah.
我不确定你是不是对的。
I don't know if that's one that you You're right.
有个加斯科涅人，对吧？
There is a Gascon, isn't there?
是的。
Yeah.
我知道。
I'm aware
的
of
它，
it,
但我
but I
还没看过。
haven't seen it.
它也有英语配音。
It's dubbed in English as well.
所以，是的。
It's So yeah.
所以在《三个火枪手》的故事里，安妮女王来回奔波，处理与白金汉公爵和被盗钻石之类的事情。
So in in the in the Three Musketeers stories, Queen Anne is is running back and forth with Buckingham and the stolen diamonds and those things like that.
哦，是的。
Oh, yes.
我觉得加斯东也牵涉其中。
And I think Gaston is is tied up with that.
马萨林和黎塞留在那些书里算是首席顾问，对吧？
And Mazarin and Richelieu are the sort of chief advisers in those books, aren't they?
所以加斯顿叔叔，是的。
So uncle Gaston Yeah.
知道每个家庭都有个问题叔叔挺好的，即使在十七世纪也不例外。
It's nice to know that every family has a problematic uncle, even in the seventeenth century.
没错。
Yeah.
我们要不要深入探讨一下这个？
Should we get into that?
所以小菲利普的人生始于悲剧性地失去父亲，经历内战，目睹一位英格兰国王被处决，看着自己的兄弟被他们的叔叔追逼。
So we've got little Philippe's life beginning with, tragically, losing his father, experiencing a civil war, seeing a king of of England being beheaded, seeing his brother being sort of hounded by their own uncle.
这对一个小孩来说，戏剧性事件可不少。
It's quite a lot of drama for a little kid.
而且我想，与此同时他还得去上学。
And I suppose all the while, he's having to go to school.
汤姆，你觉得他这个年纪能学到什么？
Tom, what do you think he's learning at this age?
你知道，他已经不再是幼儿了。
You know, he's he's not he's no longer a toddler.
他大一点了。
He's a bit older.
我想象在那个时代，教育虽然很松散，但大概还是在学习战斗，学习如何做一个好天主教男孩，而且我总是对统治家族如何从小就被塑造得不仅掌控全局，而且不惧怕被评判感到好奇。
I imagine at that time, very loosely, but I imagine that it's still probably learning about fighting and learning about how to be a a good Catholic boy and probably well, I'm always intrigued in how kind of ruling families were were conditioned from an early age to be not just in control, but also kind of without fear of being judged.
你知道，从小就被灌输一种凌驾于评判之上的心态，我想是这样的。
You know, being above judgment must have been kind of an an early indoctrination, I guess.
这是个有趣的观点。
It's an interesting point.
这是权力的心理训练。
It is the psychological training of power.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
Very much so.
我认为菲利普做得特别好的一点是，他是唯一一个能对路易说不的人。
And I think that's one of the really good things that Philippe does, is Philippe is the only person who can say no to Louis.
好的。
Alright.
明白了。
Okay.
这非常重要。
That's really important.
菲利普是搞学术的吗？
Is is Philippe academic?
他爱读书吗？
Is he is he bookish?
他两者都是吗？
Is he Both
我认为他们都是。
of them are, I think.
他们两人都在学习。
Both of them study.
他们两人都读自己的书。
Both of them read their books.
他们两人都读，尤其是路易十四，我在学校里学过，所以一定就是这样。
Both of them especially Louis the fourteenth becomes very, I read this in school, therefore, it must be so.
我想，这正是他的心态的精髓。
That that that's his mentality, I think, in a nutshell.
对。
Right.
我认为菲利普更有趣一点，也许我有点偏心，但我非常喜欢他。
Philippe, I think, is a bit more fun, a bit more maybe I just am biased, but I like him a lot.
但他们确实都学习了，比如跳舞、击剑、骑马，骑马是很重要的一部分。
But but they certainly learn, you know, dancing, fencing, horsemanship, being on a horse is an important part
一点拉丁文。
of the Bit of Latin.
我们知道菲利普的字迹非常差。
We know that Philip's handwriting is dreadful.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yes.
我看过他的一些信件。
I've seen some of his letters.
那些信基本上就是一堆竖线。
They're basically a bunch of vertical stripes.
而且，据传他的妻子——我们稍后会谈到——不得不把他的信读给他听，因为他自己都不知道自己写了什么。
And and apparently, there are references for his his wife, who we'll get to later, having to read his letters back to him because he didn't know what he'd written.
我们确实需要讨论一件事，我很想知道这是否只是流言蜚语：有个说法是菲利普穿着女装。
The one thing we do need to address, and I'm I'm curious whether this is gossip rumor, there is this sort of story that Philippe is dressed as a girl.
是的
Yeah.
当然，这个年龄段的男孩通常会穿裙子，直到五岁左右。
Now, obviously, boys at this age wear dresses anyway to the age of five.
五岁。
It's
七岁。
a Seven.
七岁。
Seven.
好的。
Okay.
谢谢。
Thank you.
你知道吗，温斯顿·丘吉尔直到差不多那个年龄都还穿裙子。
You know, Winston Churchill wore a dress until he was roughly that age.
但有一种感觉，女王把菲利普当作她的小小公主来对待。
But there is this sense that the queen treats Philippe as her little princess.
是的。
Yes.
正如你所说，所有贵族男孩在成年礼之前都会穿裙子，我觉得‘成年礼’这个词挺有趣的。
Like you said, the common for all aristocratic boys is to to wear a dress until you're breached, which I think is a fun word.
七岁时，你就完成了成年礼，换上长裤，并且由一位男性家庭教师取代了之前照顾你的女家庭教师。
Seven, you are breached and put into trousers, given a a male governor rather than a female governess who's been looking after you.
但传说中，安妮希望让菲利普显得比加斯顿叔叔更无威胁性。
But the stories are very much that Anne wanted to keep Philippe less threatening than uncle Gaston.
这是普遍流传的说法。
That's the the common story.
因此，她带着他参加拜访贵妇、修道院以及其他女性的活动，让他穿着女孩的衣服。
And so they she took him with her on her visits to ladies, to convents, to other women dressed as a girl.
特别是，我们有一份由一位名叫德沙瓦西神父的人所写的回忆录。
And in particular, we have a memoir written by a guy called the Abbe Deschwasis.
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在他的回忆录中，他写道，嗯，我小时候经常见到菲利普，那时我们俩总是穿着女孩的衣服。
In his memoir, he says, well, I met Philippe all the time when we were kids, and we were always both dressed as girls.
我们整天都在忙着戴钻石首饰、做头发，真的玩得非常开心。
And we spent all of our day, you know, putting on diamonds, doing our hair, really having such a great time.
所以他真的很喜欢这样。
So he really liked it.
而且他本人的故事，单拿出来可能都够做一期播客了，因为他后来成为了一名神父，还成了一座教堂的负责人。
And and his story, in its own, probably should have its own podcast because he grows up to be an abbe, and he's he's head of a church.
他一周又一周地通过更换服装来改变自己。嗯。
And he transforms himself dress by dress week after week Mhmm.
从一件法衣变成一件舞会礼服。
From a cassock into a ball gown.
而且他还在烹饪
And he's cooking
在你身上进行时装秀挑战。
runway challenge on you.
他的教区居民并没有
And his parishioners don't
注意到。
seem to notice.
但有一个注意事项，那就是分析家和文学学者们研究了德沙齐神父的回忆录后表示，他写作的那个时代，人们非常喜欢惊世骇俗的内容。
But there is a caveat, which is that analysts and literary scholars have looked at the Abbe Deshwazi's memoirs and have said, well, he was writing in an age when people really liked shocking.
你知道，他们得靠卖书谋生。
Know, they had they had to sell their books.
这也没那么不同。
It's not so different.
想象一下那样的世界。
Imagine a world like that.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以，这可能并不是真的。
So it's possible that it wasn't true.
但我们确实有后来关于菲利普穿女装的故事。
But we do have later stories of Philippe cross dressing.
哦，这很有趣。
So Oh, interesting.
所以，真正的问题是，在加斯顿还活着的时候，菲利普需要被培养成一个不同的人。
So the idea really is is that while Gaston's still alive, Philippe needs to be trained how to be different.
因为加斯顿从1620年代到1650年代一直卷入内战，不断造反。
Because Gaston was involved in civil wars from the sixteen twenties all the way to the sixteen fifties, constantly rebelling.
于是他们想，不如换个方式。
And they thought, well, let's do something different.
所以后来的历史学家，我认为是十九世纪维多利亚时代的史学家们该背锅，说：哦，他们阉割了他。
So later historians, I think nineteenth century Victorian historians are to blame, said, oh, well, they they emasculated him.
他们让菲利普变得同性恋，这样他就无法威胁王位。
They they made Philippe gay so that he couldn't challenge the throne.
对。
Right.
我觉得这太荒谬了。
And I think that's ridiculous.
嗯哼。
Uh-huh.
为什么你要这么做呢？
Because why would you do that?
是的。
Yeah.
那样做对他们并没有好处。
What that wouldn't have served them.
尤其是考虑到路易十四随时可能去世。
Well well, particularly given that Louis the fourteenth could have died at any moment.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
然后
And then
突然间你就被困住了，哦，天哪。
suddenly you are stuck with, oh, dear.
我们都做了些什么？
What have we done?
他是备选方案。
He's the backup plan.
对吧？
Right?
他是，他是，他是法国的未来，万一路易感冒了呢。
He's he's he's the future of France if Louis gets a cold.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以从逻辑上讲，这真的说不通。
So logically, it really doesn't make sense.
不。
No.
但我认为维多利亚时代的人喜欢这个想法。
But I think the Victorians like that idea.
好的。
Okay.
汤姆，你想象中青少年时期的菲利普是什么样的？
How do you imagine Philippe as a teenager, Tom?
你青少年时期是什么样的？
What were you like as a teenager?
嗯，这是个大问题。
Well, that's a big question.
但如果我是菲利普，我能想象他虽然感到沮丧，但也可能有机会比他哥哥更自由一些。
But I can imagine if I was Philippe, he's frustrated, but he would also be I mean, he's he's given opportunity to be a bit freer than his older brother, I imagine.
所以可能他会更张扬、更富有戏剧性。
So probably would be more flamboyant, would be more theatrical.
我的意思是，我感觉你找我来是有原因的。
I'm I mean, I'm I'm sensing from the sense that you've booked me.
而且我可能确实如此。
And I may Yeah.
我们没请雷·温斯顿来演丹尼这个角色。
We didn't get Ray Winston for Danny this
戴尔不想演这部。
Dyer didn't wanna do this one.
所以我想象他可能会挑战时尚的界限，尝试各种不同的风格，某种程度上，他的成长经历是比较另类的。
And and so I'm I'm imagining maybe pushing the the envelope of fashion and trying out different things in different he's had a very alternative upbringing in some ways, I guess.
是的。
Yeah.
我想象他至少会是个戏剧性十足的人。
I'm imagining he would be kind of a theatrical to say the least.
对。
Yeah.
他对戏剧更感兴趣，我们稍后会结合莫里哀的作品深入探讨这一点。
He's more interested in theater, and we'll actually get into that in a bit, with with Moliere.
实际上，这两者之间有着相当紧密的联系。
There's actually a quite close connection.
所以他确实更自由一些，也与众不同，而且我认为他笔下的这个角色更加精力充沛、更有趣，也更难以预测。
So he is a bit freer and is a bit different, and I think his character he's written about is much more energetic, much more fun, much more unpredictable, I think.
确实存在一些关于异装的故事，这些故事确实包含了一些真实的元素。
There is the cross dressing stories, which do then have some element of truth.
但有时人们也批评他过于轻浮、孩子气，不够严肃，你知道，他本应是法国的第二号人物。
But sometimes people also critiqued him for being too frivolous, too childish, not serious enough, not, you know, you should you're supposed to be the second man of France.
他和朋友在一起时很有趣。
He's fun with his friends.
他正在笑，但他可能还没完全长大。
He's he's having a he's having a laugh, but maybe he's not quite growing up
没错。
Right.
够快。
Fast enough.
没错。
Right.
不过这确实很难，不是吗？
It's a tough one though, isn't it?
当一个替补演员就是这样。
Being an understudy like that.
总是为一场你永远不会登台的演出排练，没错。
Always rehearsing for a gig you're never gonna Exactly.
最终永远不会放弃。
Eventually never gonna give up.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
而且你刚才提到了，我是说，你提到了变装之类的。
And and you've you've spoken there about mean, you've mentioned cross dressing or so on.
我是说，有传闻说他曾穿着舞会礼服出庭。
I mean, there there are stories of him showing up to court in a ball gown.
是的。
Yeah.
所以当时我们拥有的最佳回忆录之一，非常值得一读的，是他堂妹的回忆录，她的名字，你猜怎么着，就叫‘大郡主’。
So one of the best memoirs we have at the time, which is very much worth a read, is the memoirs of his first cousin, whose name, guess what, is la grande mademoiselle.
因为她是郡主，但她是年纪较大、未婚的那位公主。
Because she was the mademoiselle, but she was the older one, unmarried princess.
她的回忆录非常有趣，因为她自认为是欧洲最重要的人物。
And her memoirs are hilarious because she thinks she's the most important person in Europe.
她的回忆录就是从这种方式开始的。
And and her memoirs start that way.
她们说：‘我写这些回忆录，是因为每个人都应该读一读。’
They say, well, I'm writing these memoirs because everyone should be reading them.
那种强烈的自我重要感，在我们这个时代被鼓励要谦逊、低调的背景下，显得格外迷人。
She's That sort of sense of self importance, I think, is so fascinating in an age when we're encouraged to be quite meek and quite sort of muted.
她完全不是那样的人。
She was anything but.
顺便说一下，她是加斯顿的女儿。
So she's Gaston's daughter, by the way.
就像一个Instagram网红。
Like an Instagram influencer.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以她是，是的。
So she's yes.
所以她是加斯顿的女儿，她告诉我们菲利普打扮成牧羊女出现了？
So she's Gaston's daughter, and she's telling us that Philippe shows up dressed as a shepherdess?
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，他们是一起的。
Well, they did together.
所以他们经常被配对参加舞会或舞蹈，作为潜在的伴侣，你知道的。
So they were often paired together to come to balls or dances as as potential partners, you know.
对。
Right.
好的。
Okay.
他们甚至可能结了婚，尽管她比他大二十岁。
They may have gotten married, even though she's twenty years older than he.
但是，是的，她在回忆录中非常清楚地描述了一个事件，他们一起装扮成牧羊女出现，并在某种程度上游行展示。
But, yes, she describes in her memoirs how quite clearly there's an event where they turn up together as shepherdesses, and they sort of parade around.
他们似乎很喜欢牧羊女装扮，因为后来玛丽·安托瓦内特——没错。
They seem to love shepherdesses because later on, Marie Antoinette That's right.
知识很渊博。
Good knowledge.
这有点像，是的。
It's some like Yeah.
法国宫廷里的那种事，比如，我们该穿什么？
Thing in the French court, like, what should we dress at?
有点像那种'妓女与牧师'主题派对。
Like, sort of Tarts and Vicars party.
是的。
Yeah.
就是。
Is.
所以上层阶级装扮成农民和牧羊人，这挺有意思的。
So the upper class dressing as as peasants and shepherds is quite funny.
哦，我明白了。
Oh, I see.
那是他们当时流行的一种做法。
That was a thing they did.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
这是，这是
It's it's
这简直是终极的角色反转，对吧？
the ultimate role reversal, isn't it?
没错。
Yeah.
我想，那种超级夸张的、低阶层的形象，比如那个带着羊的女孩。
I suppose, know, the kind of uber bit colic, low status, the girl with the sheep.
这这
It's it's
亨普蒂·泰罗尔。
Humpty terror.
太好笑了。
Hilarious.
如果你哥哥是法国国王，而在他的派对上公开你的变装身份——扮演牧羊女，这真是相当大胆的举动啊，汤姆。
Unveiling your drag persona, the shepherdess, at your brother's party, if your brother was the king of France, it's quite a bold move, Tom.
嗯
Well
但话说回来，我觉得，在那个时代，他们显然想要什么就能得到什么，那为什么不呢？
but then again, I think, like, in an age when they obviously had anything they wanted at their fingertips within within the reason, why not?
我能想象，那种情况大概不会太严肃，我想，因为毕竟。
Like, I can imagine that that would be I don't know how serious the court was, I guess, because Yeah.
那正是那种极度的奢华。
That's the there's such opulence.
我认为这是个很好的后续问题，因为我们必须记住当时其他人穿的是什么——男人都穿着高跟鞋、蕾丝、巨大的蝴蝶结、卷曲的假发，还有喷洒大量香水的服装。
That's the good next question, I think, because we have to remember that what everybody else was wearing at the time is men were wearing high heel shoes, were wearing lace, were wearing huge bows and giant curled wigs and lots of perfumed costumes.
所以，当时的变装并不意味着现在变装所代表的意义。
So being in drag then didn't mean what it does now.
没错。
Right.
嗯，
Well,
我觉得有趣的是，我们谈论变装，或者讨论那些穿着与社会预期不同服装的人，这会引起轩然大波。
it's interesting to me that we talk about, like, drag or we talk about kind of people, yeah, wearing different clothes than than society might expect of them, and it creates this uproar.
但我确实认为，在很长很长一段时间里，确实如此。
But I kind of do think, well, for a long long time Yeah.
尤其是那些富有、有权势的人，他们穿着你能想象到的最华丽的服饰。
Particularly wealthy, powerful people have worn the most flamboyant things you can imagine.
比现在任何人穿的衣服都要更加华丽。
Much more flamboyant than anything anybody would wear today.
是的。
Yeah.
我们做过一期关于高跟鞋历史的节目，高跟鞋最初是为男性发明的。
Well, we did an episode on the history of high heel shoes, which were first first invented for men.
对，没错。
And, you know Right.
你知道的。
You know.
对。
Yes.
所以，这种鞋子的性别化历史确实很有趣。
And so, yeah, the history of the the sort of gendering of that type of shoe is really interesting.
它一直在反复变化，你知道的。
It goes back and forth, you know.
真有意思。
Fascinating.
不过，我们来说说菲利普作为备选的情况吧。
But let let's talk about Philippe as as the spare.
对吧？
Right?
所以他是替补，这本身就够尴尬的了，但我想他必须随时做好准备。
So he's the understudy, which is awkward enough, but I suppose he has to be ready.
路易国王在1658年确实感到身体非常、非常不适，而且他有可能即将去世。
Louis, the king, does feel he he gets very, very unwell in 1658, and there is the possibility he's gonna die.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为，这是人们觉得菲利普可能会变得像加斯顿那样，并会支持一场叛乱的地方之一。
So this is one of the places where I think people thought Philippe might become like Gaston and would champion a rebellion.
一场宫廷政变正在酝酿中，因为路易十四世病得很重。
A court coup was kind of brewing because Louis the fourteenth was very sick.
菲利普并没有真正扮演他该扮演的角色。
And Philippe doesn't really play the role he's supposed to.
有一群人围在他床边，说现在是时候了。
There's a whole coterie of people gathering around his bed saying, now's the time.
现在是时候了。
Now's the time.
而他只是开始哭泣，因为他太爱他的哥哥了。
And he just starts crying because he loves his brother so much.
如果路易去世了，菲利普自然会成为国王。
And if Louis had died, of course, Philippe would have become king.
但我认为，这立刻表明菲利普与叔叔加斯顿的性格截然不同，他并不真的想夺取权力，但他也尽职尽责。
But I think right away, it shows that Philippe is of a different character to uncle Gaston, in that he doesn't really want to seize power, but he also does his jobs.
他有职责。
He has duties.
他偶尔会去出席一些活动，比如为修道院揭幕、剪彩之类的，你知道，就是这些
He goes around occasionally opening convents or cutting ribbons or, you know I mean, it's the
同样的类型
same sort of
那么，王室家族与今天并没有太大不同。
royal families then aren't aren't that different from today.
被看见。
Seen.
是的。
Yeah.
他必须露面。
He has to be seen.
当然。
Sure.
他可以向议会提交法令。
He can introduce edicts into Parlement.
你知道，如果路易无法处理某些事务性工作，菲利普就可以代为处理。
You know, he can do if Louis is not available to do something clerical, Philippe can do it.
所以他确实有
So so he does have a
是的
Yeah.
好的
Okay.
所以他能做一些次要的小事。
So he can do sort of minor Minor things.
一些次要的统治职责，你知道的，备用的。
Minor ruling duties, you know, spare.
但显然在1661年，国王路易有了一个儿子，这意味着菲利普作为备用角色的地位立刻不再需要了。
But obviously, in 1661, king Louis has a son, which means Philippe's role as spare Oh, immediately, he's no longer needed.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
他现在成了替补的替补。
He's now the understudy to the understudy.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他其实一直
So it's he's kind of it's he's had
他一直
he's had
得到了加斯顿式的待遇。
the uncle Gaston treatment.
对。
Yeah.
他就是加斯顿。
He's been Gaston.
他就是加斯顿。
He's been Gaston.
是的。
Yeah.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
我是说，对于一个如此张扬的人来说，我想那一定很伤人。
Was I mean, for somebody who's flamboyant, I imagine that was quite wounding.
我觉得是的。
I think so.
但另一方面，他能够将注意力转向另一个方向。
But on the other hand, he was able to focus in another direction.
我确实觉得他有很多发展方向。
I do get the sense he's got a lot of directions.
是的。
Yeah.
我们还没怎么提到过爱情。
We haven't really mentioned romance.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我们还没提到最明显的一点，一位皇室血统的王子当然需要娶一位贵族女子，这样，你知道，他也可以开始生儿育女了。
And we haven't mentioned the obvious thing of surely a prince of the royal blood needs to marry someone noble so that, you know, he can start churning out kids as well.
所以，我是说，你提到了那位牧羊女。
So, I mean, you mentioned the shepherdess.
这能行得通吗？
Does that work out?
所以，是的，有计划让先生与拉·格兰德玛·莫泽尔结婚，因为她拥有欧洲最大的财富。
So, yeah, there is a plan to marry monsieur with La Grandma Mozel because she has the largest fortune in Europe.
哦，所以她很重要。
Oh, so she is important.
极其富有。
Vastly wealth.
因此，将其保留在家族内部要合理得多。
And so it makes much more sense to just keep that in the family.
她还有一句很尖锐的话，说在见识过他的样子后，我觉得我宁愿谁也不嫁。
And there's another cutting line from her where she says, having seen what he is like, I think I'd rather marry no one at all.
不。
No.
我以为
I thought
他们是很要好的朋友。
they were great friends.
嗯，其实不是。
Well, no.
他们曾经是很要好的朋友。
They were great friends.
但关键是，她是个聪明的女人，她意识到他对女人根本没兴趣。
But mean, she's a smart woman, and she realizes that his interests already are not in women.
所以，牧羊女这个爱情线并不成立。
So the Shepherd love interest doesn't quite work.
是的。
Yes.
这真是
It's a
很遗憾，因为我本来以为，小波皮普会是他的艺名。
shame because I was had you know, Little Bo Pip would have been his would have been his drag name.
哦，那本来会是
Oh, that would have been
对。
Right.
你早就这么想了。
You've been thinking that for a long time.
我 literally 只想了五分钟。
I've literally Five minutes.
我一直都在想，我该怎么
I've been thinking, how do I
我该怎么挤出时间来做这件事？
how do I squeeze this in?
我以为你已经
I thought you've
刚才你安静了一会儿。
gone quiet for a moment there.
你只是在等待那个时刻。
You're just waiting at for that that moment.
时刻。
Moment.
对吧？
Right?
对吧？
Right?
好吧。
Alright.
所以菲利普结婚了。
So Philippe does marry.
是的。
Yes.
因此，路易十四为了结束战争而结婚，作为王室成员，这很常见。
So Louis the fourteenth has married to end a war, as you often do if you're royal.
他娶了西班牙的公主。
And he marries the Infanta of Spain.
玛丽·特蕾莎抵达后，他们生下了一位王太子。
Marie Therese arrives, and they then have a Dauphin.
在1660年和1661年，法国需要在英吉利海峡对岸寻找新盟友。
And in 1660, 1661, France needed a new ally across the Channel.
于是，路易十四将目光转向了他的表亲——英格兰和苏格兰国王查理二世，并安排了与查理的妹妹亨丽埃塔·安妮（法语中称亨丽埃特）的婚姻。
So Louis the fourteenth looked to his cousin, Charles the second, who was the king of England and Scotland, and he arranges a marriage with Charles' sister, who's called Henrietta Anne or Henriette in French.
所以菲利普娶了亨丽埃特，她对这段婚姻感到开心吗？
So Philippe marries Henriette, and is she happy about this?
他对此感到开心吗？
Is he happy about this?
我认为最初对他们俩来说，这都是一种解脱。
I think for both of them at first, it's kind of a relief.
好的。
Okay.
因为他们是一起长大的。
Because because they've grown up together.
他们非常了解彼此。
They know each other very, well.
他们知道对方是什么样的人。
They know what each other's like.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但我认为问题几乎立刻就出现了，因为她非常精力充沛、性格外向，热爱时尚和服装。
But I think the trouble does start almost immediately because she is very energetic and flamboyant and loves fashion and loves dresses.
哎呀。
Uh-oh.
是的。
Yeah.
这正是我的风格。
That's my thing.
没错。
Exactly.
所以
So
所以他们几乎立刻就产生了冲突。
so they clash almost immediately.
那双鞋是我的。
And those are my shoes.
因为他想在舞会上出风头。
Because he wants to he wants to shine at the ball.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
盾牌要在舞会上闪耀。
Shields to shine at the ball.
这简直是一场噩梦。
This is a nightmare.
他们俩的衣帽间里都塞满了痛风。
They've both got walk in closets filled with gout.
我的意思是，我们其实还应该说一点，他已经被提拔了。
I mean, the other thing we should say actually, he has been promoted.
他现在是公爵了，对吧。
He's now a duke Right.
到这个时候了。
At this point.
因为加斯顿已经去世了。
Because Gaston has died.
加斯顿叔叔去世了，这意味着他的头衔空出来了，国王路易说，好吧。
Uncle Gaston has gone, which means his title is up for grabs, and king Louis says, alright.
你将成为奥尔良公爵。
You get to be the duke of Orleans.
加斯顿叔叔没有孩子吗？
And uncle Gaston didn't have any kids?
他有孩子，但都是女儿。
He does, but they're all girls.
啊。
Ah.
女儿是不能继承公爵头衔的。
You can't pass on a duke until a girl.
真方便。
Very convenient.
是的。
Yeah.
所以菲利普现在是奥尔良公爵。
So Philippe is now the duke d'Orleans.
亨丽埃特现在是奥尔良公爵夫人。
Henriette is now the duchess of Orleans.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
所以奥尔良夫妇，不管规则是什么吧。
So mister and missus Orleans, whatever the whatever the rules are.
他们结婚了，我的意思是，菲利普和路易的父亲花了二十三年才有了孩子。
So they're married and I mean, Philippe and Louis' dad took twenty three years to have kids.
我们知道菲利普更喜欢……那他们有孩子吗？
We know Philippe prefers So do they have kids?
是的。
Yeah.
马上就有了。
Right away.
他们生了吗？
Do they?
是的。
Yeah.
哦。
Oh.
让所有人（可能）都大吃一惊的是，他们很快就有了一个女儿，名叫玛丽·路易丝，然后是一个没活多久的男孩，叫瓦卢瓦公爵，后来又有了一个女儿，叫玛丽·安妮。
So much to everybody's surprise, probably, they have a daughter called Marie Louise right away, and then there's a boy who doesn't live very long called the duke of Valois, and another girl a bit later called Marie Anne.
所以他们确实有孩子。
So they do have children.
而且我认为，这可能是我在研究所有这些事情时读到的关于菲利普故事中最恶毒的部分，那就是如果亨丽埃特在宫廷中比他更耀眼，他手头就有一件武器，那就是让她怀孕。
And this, I think, is probably the most vicious part of Philippe's story that I read about when I was studying all these things is that if Henriette was outshining him at court, he had a weapon at his disposal, which was making her pregnant.
天哪。
Oh my.
这难道不糟糕吗？
Ain't that awful?
所以如果她想去宫廷，你肯定想冬天去，因为冬天是举办所有舞会的时候。
So if she wanted to be at at court, you you wanna be there at the winter because the winter is when all the balls are.
于是他会让她刚好在那个时候怀孕，这样她就无法在冬天出席，只能去乡下的宅邸。
And so he would make her pregnant right in time so that she couldn't be there in the winter and had to go to the country house.
这真是
That is
太基了
such a gay thing
去做。
to do.
是的。
Yeah.
这相当
It's quite
有点像是出于嫉妒的举动，对吧？
a sort of jealous move, isn't it?
确实是。
Really is.
让你妻子流产。
Scupper your wife.
你还可以用圣经来支持这一点，说：我是丈夫。
And you can use the bible to support it and say, I'm the husband.
我有权利随时让你怀孕。
It's my right to make you pregnant whenever I want.
我是尼娜·克鲁舍娃，苏联领导人尼基塔·赫鲁晓夫的孙女。
I am Nina Krusheva, the great granddaughter of Nikita Khrushchev, the leader of the Soviet Union in 1962.
我是马克斯·肯尼迪，美国总统约翰·F·肯尼迪的侄子。
And I'm Max Kennedy, the nephew of US President John F.
肯尼迪。
Kennedy.
我们探讨了历史上一个令人恐惧的时刻。
We explore what was a terrifying moment in history.
古巴导弹危机的故事。
The story of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
世界曾多么接近核战争。
How close the world came to nuclear war.
以及他们为将局势从边缘拉回所采取的行动。
And what they had to do to pull it back from the brink.
核弹、肯尼迪与赫鲁晓夫。
The bomb, Kennedy and Khrushchev.
所有集数现已在您收听BBC播客的平台上线。
All episodes available now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
如果有一个巨大的红色按钮能彻底摧毁互联网，我会用额头狠狠砸下去。
If there was a big red button that would just demolish the Internet, I would smash that button with my forehead.
来自BBC，这是《Interface》节目，探讨科技如何重塑您的每周生活与整个世界。
From the BBC, this is the Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world.
这与季度收益或科技评测无关。
This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews.
它关注的是技术实际上如何影响你的工作、政治和日常生活，
It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life, and
以及人们使用互联网的各种奇特方式。
all the bizarre ways people are using the Internet.
在 bbc.com 或你收听播客的任何平台收听。
Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
所以我们感受到亨丽埃特和菲利普之间的关系。
So we get the sense Henriette and Philippe.
那里有爱，但也有真正的竞争和琐碎的嫉妒。
There's love there, but there's also real rivalry there and petty jealousies.
她出轨了。
She cheats on him.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们可以回到拉格兰玛·莫泽尔，她在这里是重要的信息来源。
So we can go back to La Grandma Mozel, who is a great source of information here.
她一直在写，写，写。
She's writing, writing, writing.
嗯嗯。
Uh-huh.
还有一个叫吉什伯爵的帅哥出现了。
And there's a guy called the Comte de Guiche, who's this very handsome man who comes in.
吉什伯爵？
Comte de Guiche?
就是这个名字吗？
Like the name of it.
吉什·勒·雷恩。
Guiche Le Reign.
什么？
What?
吉什非常暴力，而且我觉得他是主导方。
And Guiche is very violent and very I I think he's a top.
我认为菲利普喜欢这样。
And Philippe, I think, likes that.
我的意思是，有关于他几乎被吉什殴打的传闻，这有点奇怪。
I mean, there's there's stories of him sort of being beaten almost by Gish, which are a little weird.
但亨丽埃特闯了进来，把他当作自己的男朋友。
But Henriette sweeps in and takes him as her boyfriend.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
所以，是的，紧张感一直在加剧。
So, yeah, the tension mounts constantly.
所以他们共享同一个情人？
So they're sharing a lover?
其实也不是，因为吉什……嗯，我们其实并不清楚。
Not really, because Gish well, I we don't really know.
但没错。
But Right.
我认为他从他转向了她。
I think he goes from him to her.
嗯。
Mhmm.
什么
What
在我们实际上相当保守的后维多利亚时代，那究竟是什么呢？
was, again, I suppose, in our actually quite prudish post Victorian age.
我们并没有真正承认这一点。
We don't really acknowledge that.
我认为，所谓的自由恋爱，在贵族圈子里其实更常见。
I think love, free love, if you like, was was quite was much more the case in in aristocratic circles.
这么说公平吗？
Is that fair to say that?
是的。
Yes.
它时有时无。
And it comes and goes.
所以我们现在所处的六十年代非常有趣。
So the sixteen sixties, which is the decade we're in now, is very fun.
对。
Right.
节日、派对、喝酒
Festivals, parties, drinking
是的。
Yep.
他们都是二十多岁。
They're all in their twenties.
香槟的发明。
The invention of champagne.
那是
Is that
就是那种类型的十年吗？
that that sort of decade?
是这样吗？
Is that right?
是的。
Yeah.
所以路易、他的妻子、菲利普、他的妻子，他们都在二十多岁。
So Louis, his wife, Philippe, his wife, they're all in their twenties.
他们玩得非常开心。
They're having a really good time.
而且我认为，贴标签的概念也并非真的如此。
And the idea of, I suppose, labeling is also not really No.
那里并没有发生，人们并没有站出来
Happening there, that people aren't coming out
因为，对。
because Right.
所以当时根本没有什么‘同性恋’的概念。
So there was no concept, really, of homosexual.
根本不存在一种你可以选择或不选择的身份认同。
There was no concept of a of a identity that you would choose or not choose.
对。
Right.
很多事都只是取决于行为本身。
A lot of it was just down to practice.
你做了什么？
What did you do?
是的。
Yes.
当然，还有古希腊的教育传统，男孩们会短暂地与男孩发生关系，但最终还是会结婚生子。
And, of course, you know, there's always the Greek education, and and boys are meant to shag for a little while, then you eventually marry and and have children.
所以给它贴上标签是很困难的，我认为很多事情都更加流动多变。
So putting a label on it is difficult, and I think a lot of things are much more fluid.
你可以结婚，但同时也可以和男人发生关系。
And you could be married, but also having sex with a man on the side.
而且我认为人们并不真的在意。
And I don't think people really cared.
他们确实如此。
They did yeah.
我正想说
I was gonna say
他们确实在意。
it They did care.
而且，我认为我们应该明确一点，正如你所说，这是非常上层阶级的事情。
And and and I think we should be clear to say this is, like you said, a very upper class thing.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
所以中产阶级的人，他们会在那里啧啧摇头。
So middle class people, they're tut tutting away.
这份工作几乎总是如此，只要你能把这件事控制在法庭内部，那就没问题。
That's The job is almost always, if you can keep this inside the court, that's fine.
但一旦法国大众开始谈论这件事，你就必须停止了。
But once the general population of France starts talking about it, then you have to stop.
好的。
Okay.
所以像吉什这样的人会被遣送走。
So people like guiche are sent away.
去享受你的吉什吧。
Have your guiche.
享受你的吉什，然后把它吃掉。
Have your guiche and eat it.
我们从千层酥聊到了洛林，因为接下来这位是洛林骑士。
Well, we go from quiche to Lorraine because actually the next man is the Chevalier de Lorraine.
天哪。
Oh my goodness.
每天早上9点在ITV播出。
On ITV at 9AM every day.
你听说过洛林骑士吗？
Do you have you ever heard of the Chevalier de Lorraine?
洛林的骑士？
The Horseman of of Lorraine?
没有。
No.
是的。
Yeah.
那位骑士，嗯。
The knight of yeah.
骑士啊，是的。
The knight oh, yeah.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
是的。
Yeah.
没有。
No.
我实际上没有。
I haven't actually.
正如我所说，只吃过他的舒芙蕾。
Only as I say, only his quiche.
这是一道美味的
It's a delightful
舒芙蕾。
quiche.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
我的意思是，乔纳森，我认为可以公平地说，这，这就是菲利普的真爱。
I mean, Jonathan, this, I think it's fair to say, is is Philippe's great love.
是的。
Yes.
在这个故事中，其他男人来了又走，但洛林骑士和菲利普在一起大约四十年。
Other men come and go in this story, but the Chevalier de Lorraine and Philippe are together for about forty years.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yeah.
我从未在十七世纪找到过像那样两个男人在一起的例子。
Which I've never found an example like that in the seventeenth century of two men together like that.
根据我所读到的所有资料，人们并不介意菲利普有个男朋友。
From everything I've read, people didn't mind that Philippe was having a boyfriend.
他们不喜欢的是他被支配，因为一位王子——我认为电视剧《凡尔赛》在这方面搞错了。嗯。
What they didn't like was that he was being dominated because a prince which is what I think the TV show, Versailles, I got wrong Mhmm.
顺便说一下。
By the way.
所以洛林骑士是个很棒的角色，因为他长得帅。
And so the Chevalier du Lorraine is is a great character because he was good looking.
他很有魅力。
He was charming.
他出身于一个非常古老的家族，是欧洲最古老的家族。
He was from a really old family, the oldest family in Europe.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但他身无分文。
But he had no money at all.
所以他完全依赖菲利普。
So he was totally dependent on Philippe.
而且我认为他们之间有一段浪漫的虚构故事，他们从小就认识，因为他们的母亲是很好的朋友。
And they had this romantic made up I think they'd known each other since boys because their mothers were great friends.
但最终，他们在1667年一起被派往战场。
But finally, they are both sent off to war together in 1667.
骑士受伤了。
The Chevalier gets wounded.
菲利普照顾他康复，这是一个非常浪漫、非常动人的故事。
Philippe nurses him back to health, and and it's very romantic, very sweet story.
之后，他们又在一起度过了接下来的四十年。
And then they're together for the next forty years.
四十年的关系，在某些方面，真是美好、动人、令人赞叹。
A forty year relationship, in some some regards, lovely, beautiful, wonderful.
但在其他方面，他是已婚的。
In other ways, he is married.
你觉得亨丽埃特，他的妻子，是怎么看待的呢？哦，天哪。
How do you think Henriette, his wife Oh, gosh.
她是如何应对的呢？
Dealt with yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道你懂。
Know you did.
是的。
Yeah.
你觉得亨丽埃特是如何应对骑士的？
How do you think she dealt with the Chevalier?
你觉得她是如何处理他的？
How do you think she handled him?
但她不是和那个谁在一起吗？
Wasn't but she's still isn't she off with what's his name?
布丁。
Quiche.
布丁。
Quiche.
是的。
Yeah.
她正在吃舒芙蕾。
She's having a quiche and eating it.
所以她是不是还和他在一起鬼混？
She's so she's is is he is he still knocking around with her?
不是。
No.
他们已经派他上前线了。
They've sent him off to the front.
哦，天哪。
Oh, god.
一旦事情闹得太出格，他就不得不被送走。
Once they got too scandalous, he had to be sent away.
被派去打仗了。
Sent off to war.
希望能被射中。
To hopefully get shot.
希望吧，你知道的。
Hopefully, you know.
是的。
Yeah.
哦，所以我猜她一定非常愤怒。
Oh, so I would imagine she's furious then.
对。
Yeah.
所以她很生气，正在采取行动。
So she's furious, and Making her moves on.
骑士和亨丽埃特关系不好，总是互相挖苦。
The Chevalier and Henriette don't get along, and they're always throwing barbs at each other.
但有趣的转折在于，她决定真的要更加积极地参与政治，这在当时对女性来说是不寻常的。
But but then the interesting twist comes along when she decides, really, that she wants to be a lot more politically active, which is unusual for a woman at the time.
但如果你有这方面的天赋，而她确实有。
But if you've got the talent for it and she did.
因此，路易十四需要更多盟友，于是派她前往英格兰与她哥哥会面。
And so Louis the fourteenth needed more allies, so he sent her off to England to meet with her brother.
亨丽埃特和查理在多佛进行了一次私密会谈。
And Henriette and Charles have a tete a tete in Dover.
他们签署了一项条约。
They sign a treaty.
一项秘密条约。
A secret treaty.
对吧？
Right?
一项秘密条约。
A secret treaty.
嗯，其中部分内容是保密的。
Well, parts of it are secret.
是的
Yeah.
好的
Okay.
是的
Yeah.
多佛条约。
The treaty of of Dover.
我的意思是，当人们发现查理二世基本上说‘我会接受一大笔贿赂并改信天主教’时，这简直是个丑闻。
I mean, it's scandalous when it's revealed that Charles the second basically says, I will take a massive bribe and become a Catholic.
不。
No.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yes.
真的吗？
Really.
这就是为什么它是个秘密。
That's why it was a secret.
大秘密。
Big secret.
是的。
Yeah.
大秘密。
Big secret.
哦，天哪。
Oh, wow.
我不知道他会那么……
I didn't know he'd be was that Well,
他没有，因为他的大臣们发现了。
he didn't because his ministers found out.
是的。
Yeah.
大
Big
挺大的。
big ish there.
人头落地。
Heads rolled.
亨丽埃特或亨丽埃特取得了胜利。
Henriette or Henriette was triumphant.
她成功地真正改变了欧洲的联盟格局。
She had succeeded in in really changing the the alliances in Europe.
她凯旋回到法国。
She comes back to France in triumph.
所有人都在说她干得有多棒，那是1670年6月。
Everyone is is saying what a great job she's had, and this is June 1670.
她在喝了菊苣之后突然病重，菊苣有点像热巧克力，随后就在那里去世了。
She suddenly becomes very sick after drinking chicory, which is sort of like hot chocolate, and dies where he's doing after.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
是被毒死的吗？
Wasn't poisoned?
她说：‘我中毒了。’
Well, so she said, I'm poisoned.
当人们围在她身边时，她说：‘我中毒了。’
I'm poisoned as people were gathering around her.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，所有人都大概把矛头指向了菲利普。
And so everyone presumably pointed a finger at Philippe.
或者说是骑士。
Or the Chevalier.
或者是骑士。
Or the Chevalier.
对吧？
Right?
因为她说，她跟她哥哥谈过，而骑士之前被赶出去了一段时间。
Because she I mean, she'd had a word with her brother, and the Chevalier had been turfed out for a bit.
对。
Right.
所以他实际上不在国内，我不认为是他毒害了她，除非情况非常复杂。
So he's actually not in the country, so I don't think he poisoned her, unless it was very complicated.
他在罗马。
He was in Rome.
所以路易十四认为骑士在国际政治上太丢脸了，他希望与英格兰结成联盟。
So Louis the fourteenth thought that the Chevalier was was too embarrassing in terms of global politics, and he wanted this alliance with England.
而查理二世说：你们必须把这个人赶走。
And Charles the second was saying, well, you've got to get rid of that guy.
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