本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
这个BBC播客由英国境外的广告支持。
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.
一部全新的女性杀手系列，将真实犯罪与历史巧妙结合。
True crime meets history with a twist in a new series of lady killers.
跟我一起穿越时空，调查十九世纪和二十世纪最令人震惊的女性杀手，我们前往犯罪现场，深入探究她们的生活，追问：她们是如何做到的？
Join me as we travel back in time to investigate the most astonishing lady killers of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, we visit the scene of the crime, and we delve deep into their lives to ask, how did they do it?
她们为什么这么做？
Why did they do it?
是什么驱使她们走向这一步？
What drove them to it?
在bbc.com观看露西·沃斯利主持的《女性杀手》。
Watch Ladykillers with Lucy Worsley on bbc.com.
一切从订阅bbc.com开始。
It all starts with subscription to bbc.com.
了解更多，请访问bbc.com/unlimited。
Find out more at bbc.com/unlimited.
我是妮娜·赫鲁晓娃，苏联领导人尼基塔·赫鲁晓夫的孙女。
I am Nina Khrushcheva, the great granddaughter of Nikita Khrushchev, the leader of the Soviet Union in 1962.
我是马克斯·肯尼迪，美国前总统约翰·F·肯尼迪的侄子。
And I'm Max Kennedy, the nephew of US President John F.
肯尼迪。
Kennedy.
我们将探讨这段令人恐惧的历史时刻。
We explore what was a terrifying moment in history.
古巴导弹危机的故事。
The story of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
世界曾多么接近核战争的边缘。
How close the world came to nuclear war.
以及他们为将局势从悬崖边拉回所采取的行动。
And what they had to do to pull it back from the brink.
核弹、肯尼迪与赫鲁晓夫。
The bomb, Kennedy and Khrushchev.
所有集数现已在您收听BBC播客的任何平台上线。
All episodes available now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
大家好，欢迎收听《你已死亡》——一档认真对待历史的BBC第四电台喜剧播客。
Hello, and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the radio four comedy podcast that takes history seriously.
我是格雷格·詹纳。
My name's Greg Jenner.
我是一名公共历史学家、作家和广播员。
I'm a public historian, author, and broadcaster.
今天，我们将戴上瘟疫口罩，翻出我们的医生包，回到16世纪的英格兰，全面了解文艺复兴时期的医学。
And today, we're putting on our plague masks and rummaging in our doctor's bags as we head back to sixteenth century England to learn all about Renaissance era medicine.
为了帮助我们，我们邀请了两位德高望重的医生。
And to help us, we are joined by not one, but two esteemed doctors.
在历史角落，她是雷丁大学英语文学系的副教授，其研究聚焦于16至18世纪的医学与人体。
In History Corner, she's an associate professor in the department for English literature at the University of Reading, where her research focuses on medicine and the body from the sixteenth to eighteenth centuries.
幸运的是，她还撰写了精彩的新书《外科医生、助产士与江湖郎中：如何在文艺复兴时期的英格兰生存》。
And luckily for us, she's also the author of the fantastic new book, The Surgeon, The Midwife, and The Quack, How to Stay Alive in Renaissance England.
这是阿拉娜·斯库斯医生。
It's doctor Alana Scoose.
欢迎你，阿拉娜。
Welcome, Alana.
你好。
Hello.
很高兴来到这里。
Nice to be here.
很高兴你来参加。
Lovely to have you here.
在喜剧区，她是一位喜剧演员、演员和编剧。
And in Comedy Corner, she's a comedian, actor, and writer.
你可能在《与阿波罗一起直播》《QI》《无意义》和《没有好消息给你》等所有电视节目中见过她。
You might have seen her on all the TV, on Live with the Apollo, QI, Pointless, and Haven't Good News for You.
也许你看过她的现场演出，或听过她在BBC第四电台《新闻问答》中的表现，但你一定会从我们节目的《钟游》和《马可·波罗》集数中记得她。
Maybe you've caught her live shows or heard her on Radio four's The News Quiz, but you'll definitely remember her from our show, episodes of Chungy Sau and Marco Polo.
当然，这是里阿琳娜博士。
Of course, it's doctor Rialina.
欢迎你，里阿琳娜博士。
Welcome, doctor Rialina.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
我很少用这个头衔，所以能用一下感觉真好。
I rarely use that title, so it's nice to use it.
我的意思是，你是一位非常著名的喜剧演员。
I mean, you are such a sort of renowned comedian.
人们可能不知道这一点。
People might not know this.
你拥有病毒学的博士学位。
You have a PhD in virology.
是的。
I do.
为了赎我的罪。
For my sins.
我拥有疱疹学博士学位。
I have a PhD in herpes.
那是我的专长。
That's my specialty.
通往喜剧的经典路径。
The classic route into comedy.
这话题很少出现，尤其是在第一天。
It just doesn't come up much, especially on a first day.
我真的
I really
如果你是受过训练的科学家，从事现代医学，想必你相当自信。
if you are a trained scientist, modern medicine, presumably, you're pretty comfortable.
你知道医学史吗？
Do know about the history of medicine?
我知道一些零散的细节。
I know bits and pieces.
我研究过疱疹的演化。
I did the evolution of herpes.
那其实不是指它从最初的样子演变成现在的样子，我是说……
That was sort of my well, not the evolution of it, like, from what it looked like at the beginning to what it looks like now.
我的意思是，它基本上没怎么变。
I mean, it was pretty much the same.
嗯，其实也不是没变。
Well, it wasn't.
但你懂我的意思吧？
But you know what I mean?
就像，我知道一些零散的细节，但当你研究病毒的演化时……
Like, I know bits and pieces, but when you study virus evolution
嗯。
Mhmm.
实际上，它在人类医学中出现的频率并没有你想象的那么高，尽管你可以回溯并说，那是一种病毒。
It actually doesn't come up in terms of human medicine as frequently as you would have thought, even though you can kind of look back and go, that was a virus.
那是一种病毒。
That was a virus.
是的。
Yeah.
但我很兴奋。
But so I'm excited.
很好。
Good.
很好。
Good.
尤其是十六世纪。
Especially sixteenth century.
我已经坐在这里五分钟了，一直在想，那是十五世纪还是十七世纪？
I've been sitting here for five minutes going, is that the fifteen hundreds or the seventeen hundreds?
因为总是差一个数字，对吧？
Because it's always one number out, isn't it?
是十五世纪。
It's the 15 hundreds.
是十五世纪。
It's the 15 hundreds.
但我其实想问你，你知道吗，‘文艺复兴时期的英格兰’这个说法对你来说意味着什么吗？
But I was gonna ask you, actually, you know, does the does the phrase Renaissance era England mean anything to you?
当你提到文艺复兴时，很好，我想到的是意大利人。
See, when you say Renaissance, great, I'm thinking Italians.
我想到的是法国人。
I'm thinking French.
我想到的是科学上一些了不起的进步。
I'm thinking some wonderful progression in science.
但你一说到英格兰，我就想，哦，那完全是另一回事。
Then you said England, and I went, oh, that's that's a very different thing.
你知道吗，这可能大到我们再也不在户外随地大小便了。
You know, that that could be as big as we don't poo inside outdoors anymore.
你明白我的意思吗？
Do you know what mean?
比如，对于当时的英国人来说，进步与欧洲其他地区的进步并不完全一样。
Like, progress for the English, especially back then, wasn't quite the same as progress for the rest of Europe.
那你了解多少呢？
So what do you know?
现在我要猜猜看，我们可爱的听众们对今天的话题了解多少。
This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject.
由于莎士比亚的戏剧、你们看过的各种奇特而精彩的改编作品，以及关于都铎和斯图亚特王朝的流行文化，你们可能对文艺复兴时期英国人的生活有了一些了解。
And thanks to Shakespeare's plays and the many weird, wonderful adaptations you've seen, plus all the pop culture about Tudors and Stuarts, you've probably got some sense of what life was like in Renaissance era England.
但关于疾病和医疗保健呢？
But what about disease and health care specifically?
也许，像我一样，你只是想到了《黑爵士》里那个万能疗法——放血吸血虫的经典场景。
Well, maybe, like me, you're just thinking of the classic scene in Blackadder where the cure for everything is leeches.
但在文艺复兴时期的英国，看医生究竟是怎样的体验？
But what was visiting the doctor in Renaissance England really like?
除了瘟疫医生的面具之外，还有更多内容吗？
Was there more to it than plague masks?
他们真的会使用瘟疫医生的面具吗？
Did they use plague masks?
那水蛭呢？
And what about those leeches?
这些说法是真的吗？
Were they true?
还有，这个‘Stroker’到底是谁？
Oh, and who on earth was the Stroker?
让我们来一探究竟。
Let's find out.
瑞亚，当我们提到文艺复兴时期的英国时，你想到的是意大利和法国之后的时期。
Rhea, when we say Renaissance England, you're thinking post Italy and France.
在你脑海中，你想象着米开朗基罗那样的艺术家在创作的画面。
In your head, you've got lovely image of of Michelangelo sort of doing arts.
所有的乌龟都在做自己的事。
All of the turtles doing their thing.
当然。
Definitely.
但如果你要聚焦在16世纪，当然你提到了莎士比亚，这让我立刻想到伊丽莎白女王。
But if you're gonna narrow it to the 15 hundreds, and, of course, you've mentioned Shakespeare, this is screaming to me, specifically queen Elizabeth Okay.
首先，我不打算给玛丽太多功劳，她在位的五年里几乎没有带来任何进步，抱歉。
The first, because I'm not gonna give Mary that much credit for any kind of progress in the five years that she I'm sorry.
我就是不打算这么做。
I'm just not gonna do it.
我就是不打算这么做。
I'm not gonna do it.
阿拉娜医生，你用了‘英国文艺复兴’这个说法。
Doctor Alana, you've used the phrase English Renaissance.
作为一名历史学家，我通常会说早期现代时期。
As a historian, I typically would say early modern period.
所以我很想知道，我的意思是，里亚已经做得很好了，但为什么是英国文艺复兴而不是意大利文艺复兴？
So I'm I'm curious what what is I mean, Ria's done a pretty good job there, but why is the English Renaissance not the Italian Renaissance?
好的。
Okay.
你说得对。
So you're right.
我所研究的主要是早期现代时期。
What I write about is mostly the early modern period.
因为我研究的是16和17世纪，也就是1500年代和1600年代。
Because I write sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, 15 hundreds and 16 hundreds.
但你不能在书里把‘早期现代’这个词写上450次。
But you cannot put early modern in a book, like, 450 times.
所以我们只能用文艺复兴这个词，因为大家都熟悉它。
So we just have to go with renaissance because that's what everybody knows.
这是个很棒的词。
It's a great word.
很不错，对吧？
It's good, isn't it?
它比‘早期现代’更有光彩一些。
And it's it's got a bit more sparkle to it than Right.
早期现代。
Early modern.
法语。
French.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
文艺复兴。
Renaissance.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为考古学家称之为后中世纪，这更糟。
I think the archaeologists call it post medieval, which is even worse.
这更糟。
That's even worse.
我的意思是，你不能相信考古学家的任何说法。
I mean, you can't trust archaeologists with anything.
没错。
No.
我哥哥是考古学家，所以我清楚。
My brother's an archaeologist, so I would know.
我们在这里谈论的是文艺复兴，它在英格兰出现的时间比在意大利晚，是的。
You know, we're talking here about a a renaissance that arrives in England later than in Italy Yeah.
以及在法国。
And in France.
所以是都铎和斯图亚特时期
So it's the Tudor and Stuart eras
是的。
Yes.
你知道的，十六世纪和十七世纪。
You know, sixteenth, seventeenth centuries.
在这一时期，欧洲医学和英国医学之间有没有什么共性？
Is there a kind of commonality between European medicine and English medicine in this period?
确实有。
There really is.
有很多重叠之处。
There's a lot of overlap.
事实上，它们彼此之间并没有太大差异。
In fact, it's not very different from each other.
你说得对，天主教会在英格兰失去了权力，因此事物开始更多地使用英语。
You're right about the Catholic church losing its power in England, and so stuff starts to be more in English.
但整个欧洲大陆都在发生类似的情况，因为我们常常认为教会此前一直严厉压制医学，不让人进行解剖之类的活动。
But that's kind of happening all over the continent because we often think that the church has really really been, like, stamping down on medicine before this and that they didn't let people do anatomies and stuff.
但实际上，这并不正确。
Actually, it's not true.
嗯。
Mhmm.
教会从未禁止人们进行解剖。
The church never stopped people from doing anatomies.
基本上，被处决的人不够多，无法提供足够多的尸体供人解剖，而这些尸体又没人会在意。
There weren't enough people being hanged, basically, to provide enough dead bodies that nobody would mind you anatomizing.
一旦有了城市，犯罪就更多了，被处决的人也更多了。
Once you have cities, you got more crime, you get more people being hanged.
同时，大学也多了起来，更多人希望观看解剖演示。
You also get universities, more people wanting to see the anatomies.
阿拉娜，‘解剖’是什么意思？
Alana, what does anatomise mean?
意思是解剖一具尸体，看看里面是什么样子。
It means cutting up somebody's dead body to have a look inside.
说得通。
Fair enough.
英国的医生们正在遍访欧洲各地。
And the English doctors are going all over the continent.
他们前往莱顿、帕多瓦、巴黎等地的新解剖剧场。
They're going to these new anatomy theatres in Leiden and Padua and Paris and stuff.
他们也会去医院。
And they're going to the hospitals as well.
巴黎被认为是欧洲最好的医院所在地。
Paris is meant to be the best place in Europe for hospitals.
严格来说，巴黎不是医院最好的地方，但却是拥有大型医院并允许对病人做各种奇怪实验的地方。
Well, not exactly the best for hospitals, but the best for having a big hospital that will let you do weird stuff to the patients.
这还真是个重要的前提条件，不是吗？
That's quite the caveat, isn't it?
是的
Yeah.
那是最好的医院吗？
Is it the best hospital?
不是。
No.
对。
Yeah.
那得看你站在治疗的哪一端了。
It really depends which end of the treatment you're on there.
他们把这一切都带回来了。
And they bring that all back.
还有很多移民涌入英格兰，其中很多是医生。
There's also loads of migrants coming into England, and a lot of those are doctors.
所以有很多人来自法国的胡格诺派，嗯。
So a lot of people coming from Huguenot, France Mhmm.
在这里，他们带着自己的技能而来。
Over here and bringing their skills with them.
而这正是
And that's
他们竟敢带着技能乘船抵达，真是岂有此理。
How dare they arrive on boats with skills.
我知道。
I know.
我非常愤怒。
I'm outraged.
这简直是胆大包天。
The absolute temerity of it.
我想说的另一点是，这发生在印刷术发明之后。
And I suppose the other thing to say is this is after the printing press.
对吧？
Right?
我们处于古腾堡之后的时代，因此书面材料大量涌现。
We are post Gutenberg, so we're we're getting the proliferation of written stuff.
是的。
Yeah.
成千上万的书籍。
Loads and loads of books.
更多能够阅读的人。
More people who can read.
如果你会阅读，那你很可能能读懂几种不同的语言。
Lots of people if you can read, the chances are that you can read a bit of several different languages.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，许多地位较低的医疗从业者，比如药剂师，也能读懂一些拉丁文。
So a lot of even, like, fairly low down medical practitioners like the Apothecaries can read a little bit of Latin as well.
但显然，一旦你用英语出版东西，就创造了一个新市场，那就是那些没上过大学的人。
But obviously, once you're publishing things in English, that makes a new market, which is people who haven't gone to university.
他们不是医生之类的专业人士，只是出于兴趣购买，就像你会买一本急救手册一样放在家里。
They aren't physicians or anything, but they're just kind of interested, they're just buying it to have in the house a bit like you would buy, like, a first aid book.
你知道，我们这里谈论的是在发现微生物之前，莉亚。
You know, we're talking here about before the discovery of microorganisms, Rhea.
在你的专业领域甚至还不存在之前。
Know, before your specialism even exists.
他们还没有显微镜
They haven't got microscopes
还早着呢。
just yet.
好吧。
Well, okay.
它们是存在的。
They exist.
当然。
Sure.
它们是存在的。
They existed.
它们只是
They just
并不存在。
didn't exist.
方式。
Way.
所以，我们这里谈论的是一个医学理论一千多年都没有改变的时代。
So, you know, we're talking here about a time where the theory of medicine hasn't changed in over a thousand years.
这样说公平吗，阿莱娜？
Is that fair, Alana?
大致上，是的。
Broadly, yeah.
所以他们主要相信的是盖伦医学。
So the main thing that they believe is Galenism.
那就是四种体液的概念，这四种体液在你体内循环，处于热、冷、湿、干的谱系上。
It's the idea of the four humors, and there's these four humors that go around in your body, and they're on this spectrum of hot, cold, wet, dry.
你有黑胆汁，它是冷而干的；血液，是热而湿的；黄胆汁，是热而干的；还有黏液，最令人愉悦的体液，是冷而湿的。
So you have black bile, which is cold and dry, blood, which is hot and wet, you've got yellow bile, which is hot and dry, and then phlegm, the most appealing humor, which is cold and wet.
而且令人困惑的是，它们也都存在于血液中。
And kind of confusingly, they all also go around in the blood.
所以你割伤自己时看到的血液，是营养性血液。
So the blood that you see if you cut yourself, that's nutritive blood.
但与所有这些体液混合的血液，是血液质血液。
But the blood that is mixed with all those humours, that's sanguine blood.
所以这有点令人困惑。
So it's slightly confusing.
但它确实有某种道理。
But it does kind of make sense.
如果你不了解微生物之类的东西，这种看待身体的方式相当直观。
If you don't know about microorganisms and stuff, this is quite an intuitive way of viewing your body.
我们至今仍会说一个人情绪好或不好之类的。
And we still talk about, like, being in a good or bad humor or whatever.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
We do.
我们还会说忧郁质之类的，对吧？
And we still talk about melancholic and stuff, don't we?
我需要你退回去一点，因为，好吧，血液是热而干的。
I need you to go back a bit because, okay, blood, hot and dry.
不对。
No.
血液是热而湿的。
Blood's hot and wet.
哦，是湿的？
Oh, it's wet?
是的。
Yeah.
这样没问题。
That okay.
这样更合理了。
That makes more sense.
我实话跟你说。
I'll be honest.
血液是热的且湿的。
Blood is hot and wet.
好的。
Okay.
到目前为止我跟得上。
I'm with you so far.
那就是你想要的。
That's what you want.
那就是我们想要的。
That's the one we want.
是的。
Yeah.
那就是
That's the
男人拥有的那种。
one that men
有的。
have.
痰是冷而湿的。
Phlegm is cold and wet.
明白吗？
Okay?
也就是说，到目前为止我跟你是一样的。
That's like so I'm I'm I'm with you so far.
我正在吹鼻子，我生活在15世纪。
I'm blowing my like, I'm living in the 15 hundreds.
我擤鼻涕时，是冷而湿的。
I blow my nose cold and wet.
我割伤自己时，是热而湿的。
I cut myself hot and wet.
然后我们说到黑胆汁和黄胆汁，是的。
Then we get to black and yellow bile Yeah.
我知道胆汁是什么，你应该知道。
Which I'll be you know, I know what bile is.
我从未见过自己的胆汁。
I've never come across my own bile.
比如，不会。
Like No.
那么，我们在哪里遇到黄胆汁和黑胆汁呢？
So where are we coming across yellow and black bile?
顺便说一下，我以为胆汁是绿色的。
Which, by the way, thought was green.
所以，好吧。
So Okay.
那么黑胆汁，黑胆汁是，是的。
So where black bile Black bile is Yeah.
黑胆汁，他们也称之为忧郁。
Black bile, they also call melancholy.
对。
Yeah.
所以是忧郁。
So Melancholy.
如果一个人眼下有很深的黑眼圈，或者整体肤色偏暗，不是黑色或棕色，而是深色肤色
If somebody is kind of got, like, big dark circles under their eyes or they're generally of a not, like, black or brown skinned, but of a dark complexion
嗯。
Mhmm.
那么他们会被认为体内有大量黑胆汁。
Then they would be thought to have a lot of black bile.
所以那是冷而干的。
So that's cold and dry.
是的。
Yes.
因此，人格类型与体液医学状况相关联。
So there are personality types associated to medical humoral conditions.
是的。
Yeah.
非常如此。
Very much.
比如那些痰液类型的人。
Like, the the phlegm people.
你会认出他们
And you will know them
因为那些佛兰德人。
because The Flemish.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
那些体内痰液很多的人，脚特别臭。
The people with loads of phlegm Great chips.
他们表现得完全就像你预期的痰液过多的人那样。
They, like, they act exactly like you would expect somebody with loads of phlegm to act.
他们就是傻乎乎的，像一片湿漉漉的生菜。
So they're just kind of dopey and they're a bit like a wet lettuce.
而且据说，他们的脚特别臭。
And apparently, they have really stinky feet.
而那些有黄胆汁的人脾气比较急躁。
And then those who've got yellow bile are sort of quick to temper.
他们容易生气。
They're angry.
他们容易发火。
They're hot headed.
是的。
Yeah.
忧郁型的人，他们的特征很明显。
The melancholic people, it's fairly obvious what they are.
对。
Yep.
他们很悲伤。
They're sad.
他们很悲伤。
They're sad.
那另一个是什么来着？
And then what was the other one?
那个那个
The the
多血质的人。
The sanguine human.
多血质的。
The sanguine.
好的。
Okay.
我觉得多血质这个词非常好。
I think sanguine is really good.
快乐的。
Jolly.
是的。
Yeah.
大多数多血质的人都是男性。
And most of the sanguine people are men.
女性更容易有忧郁的气质，可能因为我被关在家里，不被允许做任何事。
Women have more melancholy humors, probably because I'm being, like, kept inside and not allowed to do anything.
但确实，这也和性格类型有关。
But yeah, it goes with types as well.
多血质的人通常有红发或金发。
So sanguine people will often have ginger or blonde hair.
他们往往身材圆润、性格开朗。
They'll be quite of rotund and merry.
这描述了都铎王朝时期人们的很多特征，但可能并不是
It describes a lot of what the Tudors look like, which is probably not
天哪。
Oh my god.
都铎时代的英格兰到处都是鲍里斯·约翰逊。
All of Tudor England was full of Boris Johnson.
只是王室成员。
Just the royals.
好的。
Alright.
这些是古希腊的理念。
So these are ancient Greek ideas.
体液学说早在人类时代就已存在，盖伦是希腊裔罗马人，他继承了希腊人希波克拉底的理论。
The humoral system before humans, Galen was a a Roman Greek, and he was building on Hippocrates, who was a Greek.
这是一种在15世纪和16世纪仍在使用的古老理论。
So this is ancient theory that's still in in use in the fifteen hundreds and sixteen hundreds.
蕾亚，你觉得自己属于哪种体液类型？
Rhea, which of the humoral profiles do you think you you would be?
尤其是听完刚才那番话后，我肯定是黄胆汁型。
Especially after that conversation, yellow bile.
所以我们对体液的判断力真是越来越精准了，哈哈。
So we've honed our sense of humors, lol.
现在让我们来看看文艺复兴时期英格兰的各种医疗职业，因为当时并不仅仅只有一种医疗工作者。
Now let's look at the various medical professions in Renaissance England because there's not just one type of health care worker.
和今天一样，当时有多种不同的职业。
There are as today, there are multiple professions.
所以，阿拉娜，我们能不能从最明显的开始，也就是我们所说的医生，我猜这指的是医生，但也许并不完全是？
So Alana, can we start with, I suppose, the obvious ones, what we would call physicians, which I assume means doctor, but maybe it doesn't?
差不多就是这个意思。
It pretty much does.
医生确实是医生，但并不是所有医生都是医生（physician）。
So the physicians are doctors, but not all doctors are physicians.
哦。
Oh.
是的。
Yeah.
哇哦。
Woah.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
这是历史。
It's history.
这让我脑子里得画个图。
It's gotta be diagramming my mind here.
是的。
Yeah.
在文氏图里，重叠的部分其实很小，因为医生这个群体非常少，成为医生真的很难。
And in the Venn diagram, like, the bit of overlap is really small because the physicians are quite a small group because it's really difficult to be a physician.
你需要接受大约七年的训练。
You have to train for about seven years.
你需要大学学位，然后还得通过医师学会的认证。
You need university degree, and then you have to get licensed by the College of Physicians.
所以他们在1518年成立了这个学院。
So they get this college in 1518.
他们成功让亨利八世同意：是的，你们可以成为一个学院。
They managed to get Henry the eighth to say, yeah, you can be a college.
所以这是一个全新的
So this is a brand new
这是一个新事物。
It's a new thing.
领域，一个机构
Field, a body
是的。
Yeah.
用来规范和管理，说你合格了。
To regulate and to administer and say, you've been you you're legit.
你已经完成了培训。
You've done the training.
是的。
Yeah.
如果你在医师学院，他们会对你有一定的管控。
And then if you're in the College of Physicians, they have a bit of control over you.
你知道，如果你做了什么坏事，他们可以把你叫去问：你为什么给那位女士用了七盎司的毒芹之类的？
You know, if you do something bad, they can bring you in and say, like, why did you give that lady, like, seven ounces of hemlock or something?
哦，那可是好多毒芹啊。
Oh, that's a lot of hemlock.
那毒芹也太多了吧。
That's too much hemlock.
我的意思是，是的。
I mean yeah.
我的意思是，是的。
I mean Yeah.
要怎么才能弄到那么多毒芹呢？
How much does it time does it take to get that much hemlock?
总之吧。
Anyway yeah.
医生非常昂贵，所以他们只看那些非常富有的人。
The physicians are really expensive, so they're only seeing, like, really quite wealthy people.
请医生上门服务大约要十先令。
It's about 10 shillings to get a physician to come out to you.
然后随着发展，你会看到不同的群体。
And then as you go on, you get different groups.
比如，一直都有不同的群体，但它们开始变得更加正式，因为必须如此。
Like, there's always been different groups, but they start to be more and more formalized because they have to be.
否则，医生们就会把所有人都揽走。
Because otherwise, the physicians are just gonna take them all over.
所以，医生我认为是受过教育的阶层。
And so the physicians are, I suppose, the educated class.
对吧？
Right?
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
他们必须懂拉丁语和希腊语。
They have to know Latin and Greek.
是的。
Yeah.
他们得熟悉盖伦的理论。
They've gotta know their Galen.
他们得了解体液学说。
They've gotta know their humors.
对。
Yes.
这有点成问题。
That's kind of a problem.
因为当他们开始进行解剖之类的工作时，往往对盖伦的理论过于固守。
Because when they start doing anatomies and stuff, often, like, they're so wedded to Galen.
他们太推崇盖伦了，以至于在解剖人体时仍坚持他的观点。
They love Galen so much that they'll be anatomizing people's bodies.
但当他们翻看盖伦的书，发现与实际情况不符时，就会说：‘天啊，又是个自然怪象。’
But looking in the Galen book, and it doesn't match, they're like, oh god, another freak of nature.
怎么
How
这种情况是怎么发生的
how has this happened for the
连续第三次了？
third time in a row?
所以好吧。
So okay.
所以，如果我是个富人，花上十先令请医生上门，医生来了之后，他们是怎样诊断我的呢？
So if I'm a rich person spending my 10 shillings to get the doctor in, the physician comes around, how are they diagnosing me?
他们会关注哪些症状，哪些可以解读的迹象？
What are they looking for in terms of symptoms, things they can read?
医生们对自己的诊断能力非常自豪。
So the physicians are really proud of their diagnostic skills.
是的。
Mhmm.
这是他们与其他所有人不同的主要之处。
It's kind of the main thing they have that's different from everybody else.
所以他们首先会详细询问病史。
So they'll first they'll take a really detailed history.
他们会问你有什么症状，还有你吃了什么、你的关系如何、你睡得怎么样、性生活频率如何，然后把这些都记下来。
They'll ask you, you know, what what your symptoms are, but also what you've been eating, what your relationship's like, how you sleep, how often you have sex, and they'll write all that stuff down.
他们还会把脉，但我一直没搞清楚他们为什么要这么做。
They also will take your pulse, and I've never quite worked out why they're doing this.
他们对自己的把脉能力非常自豪，但似乎从来不用它来真正诊断病人。
They're really proud of their ability to take the pulse and, like, But read they never seem to actually diagnose anybody from it.
他们真正依赖、并且对他们更有用的是尿液检查。
The thing that they use, and it's more useful to them, is reading urine.
也就是尿诊。
So Uroscopy.
你会拿到一瓶你的尿液，医生会
And you'll get a flask of your urine, and the physician will have
看一下，然后他会
a look at it, and he'll give
闻一闻，甚至还可能喝一点。
it a sniff, and he might drink some of it.
哇哦。
Woah.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
这很正常。
That's normal.
我以为这很正常。
I thought that's normal.
最快判断一个人是否患有糖尿病的方法是尝一下他们的肉，
The fastest way to tell if someone's diabetic is to taste their meat,
他们称之为尿病。
which they call the pissing disease.
真的吗？
Really?
是的。
Yeah.
好吧。
Okay.
太神奇了。
Amazing.
所以他们真的在取尿？
So they're literally taking the piss?
对。
Yep.
好的。
Okay.
哇。
Wow.
是的。
Yeah.
这意味着味道很棒。
And it means that Yum.
你根本不需要当场请医生。
You don't need the physician right there.
因为如果你去了你豪华的乡间别墅，而医生在伦敦，你可以派你的仆人带着一封长信和一瓶你的尿液去找医生。
Because if you've gone off to your fancy country house, but the physician's in London, well, you can send your servant with a long letter and a jar of your wee to the physician.
我不禁想，有多少仆人只是把尿液弄洒了，然后不得不自己再尿进容器里。
And I do wonder, like, how many servants just dropped the wee and then had to, like, pee in a vessel themselves.
是的。
Yeah.
这会是一个经典的情景喜剧情节，对吧？
That would be a classic sitcom episode, wouldn't it?
确实会。
It would.
我得重新装满罐子，然后医生说：真的很抱歉。
I have to refill the jar, and then the doctor's like, I'm so sorry.
你得了这种罕见的病。
You've got this rare disease.
你怀孕了？
You're pregnant?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，好吧。
Well, I mean, okay.
你对喝尿这件事似乎一点都不在意。
You seem very unperturbed about drinking urine.
我们不应该对尿液感到恶心。
We like, we shouldn't be grossed out by urine.
我的意思是，很久以前人们还用它来洗衣服呢。
I mean, people were washing their clothes in it way back
这是个合理的观点。
when fair point.
这是个合理的观点。
It's a fair point.
我想在十六世纪，尿液的用途要广泛得多。
I suppose in the sixteenth century, urine is a lot more utilitarian.
对吧？
Right?
尿液可能比很多水源都干净。
Urine's probably cleaner than a lot of the water sources.
当然。
Sure.
好的。
Okay.
你用尿洗
You wash
你的头发。
your hair in urine.
你把尿加到化妆品里。
You put urine in your makeup.
但是，听众们，请不要
But, listener, please, do not
这是温暖又舒适的
It's a nice and warm
别因为我们说了就到处喝自己的尿。
Don't go around drinking your own weed just because we said so.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
还是用洋甘菊吧。
Stick with chamomile.
看起来非常相似。
It looks very similar.
温度也差不多。
Similar temperature.
好的。
Okay.
所以，阿拉娜，医生已经诊断了，喝下了尿液。
So so, Alana, so the doctor has diagnosed, has quaffed the urine.
他们会建议什么来
What are they gonna recommend to
他们已经用它漱过口了。
to they've gargled it.
他们说这是个不错的年份。
They said what a lovely vintage.
我需要很多选择。
I need so many options.
他们会推荐什么？
What what are they gonna recommend?
是饮食、锻炼，你知道的，那些经典的方法吗？
Is it is it diet, exercise, you know, the classic stuff?
是的。
Yeah.
所以他们推荐的大概85%都是他们所谓的调理方案。
So about probably 85% of what they recommend is gonna be regimen, as they call it.
好的。
Okay.
主要是饮食和你的生活习惯，但主要是饮食。
So diet and what you do, but mostly diet.
所以你想重新平衡那些失衡的体液。
So you wanna rebalance whatever humor is out of whack.
假设你得了某种疾病，是由忧郁引起的，也就是冷而干的黑胆汁。
Let's say you've got a disease and it's being caused by melancholy, so black bile, which is cold and dry.
那你就要吃一些热而湿的食物。
You're gonna wanna eat things that are hot and wet.
所以那些被认为是热性的食物，这还挺有道理的。
So the foods that are hot, it kinda makes sense.
就是你认为属于热性的食物。
It's the things you think are hot.
比如红肉，是的。
So red meat Yeah.
咸味食物、奶酪、红葡萄酒。
Salty foods, cheese, red wine.
好的。
Okay.
我的意思是，听起来不错。
I mean, sounds great.
更常见的是，他们告诉人们必须放弃所有这些东西，而这些人并不总是很喜欢这样。
More often, they're telling people that they have to give up all that stuff, which they don't always like very much.
医生总是抱怨人们不听他们的建议。
And the physician's always complaining about, like, people not taking their advice.
好的。
Okay.
然后 presumably，也还有像催吐这样的方法。
And then presumably, there's also things like purging.
我的意思是
I mean
是的。
Yeah.
他们很喜欢催吐。
They love a purge.
所以，他们称之为医学院三大良方的是放血、催吐和腹泻。
So the three great remedies, as they call them, of the College of Physicians, are bleeding, vomiting, and diarrhea.
所以
So
那些不是疗法。
Those aren't those aren't remedies.
那些是症状。
Those are symptoms.
是的。
Yeah.
他们对‘良方’这个词用得实在太随意了。
Very fast and loose with the word great there.
他们首先会让你泻下，可能是用某种让你呕吐或腹泻的东西，这可能是任何一种草药。
They first will purge you probably with something to make you vomit or give you diarrhea, which can be like any kind of herbal stuff.
有人说过一种泻药，能同时清理上下两端。
Somebody has a purge that they said purges both ends at once.
哦。
Oh.
是的。
Yeah.
没关系。
It's Okay.
真不错。
It's lovely.
他们还会给你用一些非常强效的东西，比如汞。
They can also give you really strong stuff like mercury.
他们最好的泻药之一就是汞，用于治疗梅毒患者。
One of their best purges is mercury, and they use it for people who've got syphilis.
对。
Yeah.
所以你会给病人服用汞，或者涂抹在他们身上，或者通过药物给予，然后用毯子把他们裹起来。
So you give the person mercury or you, like, smear it on them or you give it to them in a medicine, and then you wrap them up in blankets.
然后你把他们放在房间里的火炉前，把所有门都关上。
And you put them in front of a fire in a room, and you shut all the doors.
目的是让他们出汗。
And the idea Wet them out.
是的。
Yeah.
目的是通过出汗把毒素排出去。
Is to sweat it out.
哦。
Oh.
人们会大量出汗，汞对他们的影响如此强烈，如果你多次这样做，他们的牙齿就会脱落。
People sweat so much, and the mercury has such an effect on them that if you do this a lot of times, like, their teeth will fall out.
哦。
Oh.
由于体内积累大量汞，他们的皮肤会变得颜色异常。
They'll go a weird color from all the mercury inside them.
这整个事情很复杂。
It's it's a whole thing.
这是一种疗法。
And this is a cure.
真疯狂，它们竟然和对你有益的东西如此接近。
It's crazy how close they are to something that's good for you.
如果你去掉水银，这就只是一个桑拿。
Like, if you just took away the mercury, it's a sauna.
对吧？
Right?
这其实就是一种简单的桑拿疗法，我们都享受过。
It's just a simple sauna treatment, and we've all enjoyed that.
你知道的，我们花钱去水疗中心一整天，把自己裹在毯子里。
You know, we pay to go to a spa for the day and stick ourselves wrapped in blankets.
但我们不会把自己涂满厚重的
But we don't smear ourselves in heavy We
但我们不会先把自己涂满有毒物质。
don't smear ourselves in poisonous substances first.
所以他们已经非常接近了。
So they were so close.
就差了一点点细节。
It's just just just one tiny detail out.
对。
Yes.
而且听好了，
And listen,
就像它真的有效一样。
like it worked.
是的。
Yeah.
听好了，请不要把以上任何内容当作当前的医疗建议。
Listen, please do not take any of this as current medical advice.
别在家尝试这个。
Don't try this at home.
另外，我们能不能承认一下，这感觉非常像男性对医学的接管？
Also, can we can we make a nod to the fact that this feels very much like the male takeover of medicine?
因为你知道，就在一百年前，女性可能会说：我要用罗勒把你包起来，然后再用毯子裹住你。
Because you know that maybe even a hundred years prior to that, the women were saying, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna wrap you in basil, and then I'm gonna wrap you in blankets.
我要关上门，用罗勒让你发汗。
I'm gonna shut the door, and we're gonna sweat you out with basil.
那样做可能效果会更好。
And that probably and that would have had a better effect.
你知道，他们当时使用的是植物和自然疗法，比如，这里有一小块柳树皮。
You know, they were using plants and nature and and act you know, here's a bit of willow bark.
天哪。
Oh my god.
我的疼痛消失了。
My pain's gone.
阿司匹林。
Aspirin.
你知道的。
You know?
然后男人来了，说：不。
Then the men came in and went, no.
需要红肉来平衡黑胆汁。
It needs to be red meat for the black bile.
拿些汞来。
Get some mercury.
一切都走得太远了。
And it's all gone far.
这个待会再说。
To that later.
你其实对其中一些说法把握得很准。
You're kinda spot on actually with some of this stuff.
你其实说得对，我认为女性的角色往往比人们所承认的更重要。
You're you're kind of right that that women's sort of roles, I think, were more important than often given credit.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
我们稍后再谈这个。
We'll come to that a little later.
我想我们还需要讨论的另一件事，除了放血之外，还有用水蛭放血。
The other thing I suppose we need to talk about, as well as purging, the bloodletting with leeches.
黑亚当说得对吗？
Blackadder was correct?
是的。
Yeah.
他们并不是一直使用水蛭。
They don't use leeches all the time.
有时候他们只是割开你的皮肤，让你把血流进一个盆里。
Sometimes they just cut you and let you bleed into a ball.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
对。
Yeah.
视情况而定。
Just depends.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
关于过去的医学，大家普遍都知道的一个印象就是放血疗法。
It's what everyone knows about medicine in the past, right, is they have this image of bloodletting.
这在某种程度上是对的。
And it's kind of true.
我们总觉得医生特别喜欢给人放血，恨不得随时都做。
And we have this idea that physicians love letting blood out of people and they wanna do it all the time.
实际上，这主要是由患者推动的。
Actually, it's it's kinda driven by the patients.
患者想要放血，因为他们认为只要放出一些血，所有坏东西就会随之排出，然后身体会生成新的血液，这很好。
Patients want to get their bloodlet because they have the idea that if you let out some of the blood, all the bad stuff's gonna go with it, and then you'll make new blood, which is good.
是的。
Yes.
因为这源于盖伦理论，即血液是通过肝脏生成的，所以你会不断产生新的血液，然后就会好转。
Because that's the Galenic theory is that you make new blood through the liver, and so you'll you'll just produce new blood and then you'll be fine.
对。
Yeah.
有些人每六个月就会放一次血。
And some people are getting bloodlet, like, every six months.
就像你去看牙医一样。
Like, you would go to the dentist.
他们说，不管我有没有病，我都要放一碗血
They say, whether I feel ill or not, I'm gonna let out a bowl of
我的血，这样就能
my blood, and that's gonna
让我在夏天保持健康。
keep me healthy for the summer.
哇。
Wow.
那月经周期呢？我想，如果我们谈这些，那是一种正常的、自然发生的出血。
And what about the menstrual cycle, I suppose, you know, if if we're talking about these that's that's regular bleeding that's meant to happen.
是的。
Yeah.
这是大自然的放血。
That's nature's bloodletting.
对。
Right.
他们非常推崇这一点。
They they are keen on that.
如果你是男性，没有自然的放血过程，那么你可能会有鼻出血或痔疮，它们的作用差不多。
If you are a man, so you're not getting nature's bloodletting, then you might have nosebleeds or hemorrhoids, which pretty much do the same thing.
哦，所以痔疮就像是自然的放血方式。
Oh, so hemorrhoids was like a natural Yeah.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
是的。
Yep.
如果一个女性没有月经，那就是医疗紧急情况。
And if you've got a woman and she's not menstruating, like, it's a medical emergency.
当然。
Sure.
你可能需要给她放血，最好是从脚踝放，把血引到正确的位置。
And you need to let blood probably, you need to let blood from her ankles, so you draw the blood down to the right place.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
好的。
Okay.
等等。
Wait.
所以我们以前在女性怀孕早期时也会放血，是因为不知道她们怀孕了吗？
So were we doing that on women in their first trimester because we didn't know they were pregnant?
不。
No.
如果她们到了育龄，那就说明她们怀孕了。
If they're, like, pregnancy age, it's like, okay, you're pregnant.
但如果是绝经后的女性，我们就知道，得给她放点血。
But if it's somebody like post menopausal, you know, okay, we need to let some blood out of you.
哇。
Wow.
好的。
Okay.
听好了，他们能在16世纪活那么久，本身就令人印象深刻。
Listen, just the fact they lived that long in the fifteen hundreds is impressive.
确实如此。
They do.
大家都以为他们活到35岁就死了，但那是因为很多孩子夭折了。
Everyone thinks they die at like 35, but that's because all the children die.
是的。
Yeah.
如果你把这部分数据剔除，平均寿命就会高得多。
If you, like, take out that, then the average age is much higher.
我的意思是，虽然不算高，但确实高多了。
I mean, it's not high, but it's much higher.
你本该活到
You'd expect to get
大概五十九岁左右，对吧？
to your late fifties probably, wouldn't you?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
当时确实有老年人存在。
And there were there were old people around.
是的。
Yeah.
有八九十岁的人。
There were people in their eighties and nineties.
没错。
True.
实际上，有不少人活到了七十几、八十几岁，甚至更久。
I mean, actually, there were quite a few people that lived to seventies and eighties and the 18.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
很正常。
Quite normal.
有很多老年人，但不幸的是，婴儿死亡率太高，导致平均寿命被大幅拉低。
There are plenty of of elderly people, but unfortunately, child mortality was so high, the mean average gets dragged way down.
哦，原来如此。
Oh, see.
阿拉娜，这个时期晚期在英格兰肆虐的一种著名疾病是瘟疫，尤其是1665年的瘟疫。
Alana, one famous disease that ravaged England late in this period was the plague, especially the plague of sixteen sixty five.
当时的医生知道如何应对吗？
Did physicians have any idea how to deal with it?
有什么治疗方案吗？
Any protocols?
嗯，很多医生只是GABA,
Well, a lot of the physicians just GABA,
也就是哪个跑。
which is Which run.
是的。
Yeah.
他们说，我们赶紧离开这儿。
They're like, we are out of here.
但那些还留在那里的人，确实有一些相当不错的主意。
But the ones who are still there, they do actually have some pretty good ideas.
所以他们实施了基本上是社交隔离的措施。
So they put in place basically social distancing.
如果你们家有人可能感染了瘟疫，那么全家都必须待在家里，否则会受到严厉训斥。
If somebody in your family might have the plague, then the whole family has to stay inside, kind of on pain of being very severely told off.
他们会在你们家做标记，对吧？
They marked your house, didn't they?
是的。
Yeah.
他们还说，比如你坐船的时候，别坐在船里铺的稻草上，因为那里可能有虫子。
And and they say, like, if you're going in a boat, don't sit on the straw that they put in the boat because there might be bugs in it.
或者如果你必须在城里走动，别走那些晾着衣服的小巷。
Or if you have to go around town, don't go down alleyways where there's washing hanging out.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
所以这些都是很好的建议。
So this is all, like, good advice.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
当然，人们并不喜欢社交隔离。
And, of course, people don't like social distancing.
所以总是有人抱怨，比如我们告诉他们所有人都必须待在家里。
So there's always complaints about, you know, we told them they all had to stay in the house.
他们技术上是在家里，但只是把身子探出窗外和邻居聊天。
And they are technically in the house, but they're just hanging out of the window talking to their neighbors.
这很有趣。
That's interesting.
所以所有这些都表明，他们认为疾病是通过接触传播的，而不是在感染后实际通过空气传播。
So all of those things suggest that they thought it was communicated through touch rather than what it was once someone was infected, which was through the air.
他们其实并不清楚。
They didn't really know.
他们知道疾病在人与人之间传播，但方式不明。
They knew that it was passing from person to person somehow.
有时他们以为是通过空气传播的，比如瘴气，也就是
Sometimes they thought it was through the air, through miasma, which is like
污浊的空气。
bad air.
所以他们相信，难闻的空气会自然导致疾病。
So bad smelling air, they believed, had naturally occurring disease.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
哦，怪不得医生会戴那种有着大长鼻子的面具，样子非常吓人。
Oh, that's why they wore the those masks with the big noses, the big hooked noses that physicians would wear, which were quite scary.
但在鼻子末端，他们会放一小束花，是的。
But at the end of the nose, they put a little bouquet Yeah.
这样他们就不会
So that they could not so if
去戴那些面具。
went to wear the them.
对。
Yeah.
这是一个标志性的形象。
It's it's it's an iconic image.
这就是人们一想到瘟疫医生面具时会联想到的标志性形象。
It's the thing that everyone thinks of as, like, the famous plague doctor mask.
是的。
Yeah.
这种形象在意大利更常见。
It's more of a thing in Italy.
在英国其实并不这么做。
They don't really do it in England.
因此，爱丁堡由于意大利和苏格兰之间深厚的联系。
And therefore, Edinburgh, because of the strong connections between Italy and Scotland.
在英格兰人到来之前，意大利和苏格兰就有着密切的关系。
So Italy and Scotland had a great relationship going on before the English came in.
我喜欢这么说：在伊丽莎白去世、詹姆斯继位英格兰之前。
Well, and before Elizabeth died and then James took over England is how I like to phrase it.
所以意大利和苏格兰之间有着非常紧密的医学联系。
And so there was a really strong medical connection between Italy and and and Scotland.
所以在苏格兰的瘟疫中你更常看到这一点
So you see that more in the Scottish plague
这很有趣。
That's interesting.
而不是在英格兰。
Than you did in England.
但没错，在英格兰，这其实是个小小的误称，对吧？
But, yeah, England, it is it's a slight bit of a misnomer in England, isn't it?
这在英格兰非常罕见。
It's it's very rare.
所以社交距离，显然意大利人有隔离措施，我们这个词就来源于此，指的是四十天的隔离。
So social distancing, obviously, the Italians have quarantine, which is where we get the word from, which is where you have forty days of isolation.
我们还见过一些非常奇特的疗法。
And we get some pretty wild cures.
有个人叫乔治·汤普森。
There's a guy called George Thompson.
是的
Yeah.
乔治·汤普森很了不起。
George Thompson's great.
他声称自己四次感染瘟疫都活了下来，这简直不可思议。
He claims that he survived the plague four times, which would be amazing.
但有可能。
But possible.
但确实如此。
But yeah.
从技术上讲是可能的。
Technically possible.
我认为现在有些人携带一种基因突变，使他们更有可能存活下来。
And I think now some people had a genetic mutation, which makes them a bit more likely to survive.
好的。
Okay.
但无论如何，他是一名医生，但在其他许多医生离开伦敦时，他却留了下来。
But anyway, he's a physician, but he stays in London when a load of the other physicians have left.
他对瘟疫非常感兴趣。
And he's very interested in the plague.
他解剖了他邻居的一个仆人，这位仆人死于瘟疫。
He anatomizes his neighbor's, like, manservant who's died of the plague.
然后，令人惊讶的是，他再次感染了瘟疫。
And then, surprisingly, he gets the plague again.
但他有几种不同的疗法。
But he's got a few different cures.
因此他说，如果你能随身携带宝石，它们或许能以某种方式将瘟疫吸出来。
So he says, if you can, like, carry gemstones about your person, they might somehow draw out the plague.
哦，明白了。
Oh, okay.
是的。
Yeah.
或者溶解的蛇肉。
Or the dissolved flesh of snakes.
那也很有效。
That's also good.
杰姆布雷德们现在还在这么做。
That's Gemblades are still doing that
今天。
today.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道这个。
I know that.
携带水晶。
Carrying crystals.
水晶。
Crystals.
是的。
Yeah.
哦，哇。
Oh, wow.
好吧，如果你买不起宝石，可以试试替代方法，我在TikTok上没看到过：你抓一只蟾蜍，盯着它用力看大约十五分钟。
Well, if you can't afford gemstones, you can do an alternative, which I haven't seen on TikTok, which is you get a toad, and you stare at the toad really hard for about fifteen minutes.
有一种理论认为，蟾蜍非常讨厌人类，当你一直盯着它时，它会气得要死。
And there's this theory that toads really hate humans and that the toad will be so pissed off by you staring at it that it will die.
然后你可以把蟾蜍晾干，做成药丸，或者直接挂在脖子上。
And then you can, like, dry out the toad and you can make it into pills or you can just hang it around your neck.
由于蟾蜍体内充满了负面情绪，这种高度集中的愤怒会把那种东西吸引出来。
And because of the badness that's then in the toad, it's like concentrated rage that's inside the toad, it kind of draws out the
玩。
play.
太神奇了。
Amazing.
我现在明白那部电影了，《凝视蟾蜍的人》。
I see the movie now, the men who stare at toads.
我
I
我的意思是，
mean, it's
这是一部很短的电影。
a very short movie.
这确实是《柳林风声》一个很奇怪的结局，不是吗？
It's a it's and it's definitely a weird ending to Wind in the Willows, isn't it?
蟾蜍只是被盯着，然后就死了，接着被磨成粉。
Where toad just gets sort of stared at and dies and then is powdered.
所以我们现在有了以两栖动物为基础的瘟疫疗法：你找一只愤怒的蟾蜍，它因暴怒而死，然后你把它磨成粉。
So we've got amphibian based plague cures where you get a furious toad that dies of sheer rage and then you powder it.
好吧。
Fine.
把蛇和翡翠溶解在宝石上。
Dissolve snakes and emeralds on gemstones.
太棒了。
Fabulous.
那是乔治·汤普森。
That's George Thompson.
我们确实有科学进步，你知道，你提到过解剖学，也就是有人打开身体寻找疾病证据的过程。
We do have scientific progress and you know, you talked about anatomy, which is where someone is opening up the body to look for evidence of disease.
我们有一位非常著名的解剖学家，威廉·哈维，他做的是真正的科学。
We do have a very famous anatomist, William Harvey, who does some proper science.
是的。
Yes.
他是个聪明的家伙。
He is a clever chap.
在这一点之前，你提到过盖伦和血液，盖伦的血液理论认为，血液主要在肝脏中生成，然后心脏为血液添加氧气，接着血液在体内循环，但只是随意地在体内流动。
Before this point, you talked about Galen and blood and the Galenic theory of blood is that you make blood mostly in your liver and then the heart like adds oxygen into the blood and then it kind of goes around the body but it sort of just sloshes around the body.
威廉·哈维测量了心脏每次能泵出多少血液，并发现如果盖伦的理论成立，那么人体每天必须从肝脏产生远超自身体重的大量血液。
William Harvey, he measured how much blood you could pump out of the heart, and he worked out for that to be true, you'd have to be making enormous quantities of blood from your liver every day, like multiples of what you weigh.
所以他想，这不可能是对的。
So he's like, okay, that can't be true.
于是他拿来了止血带，绑在人们的胳膊上。
So he gets ligatures and he puts them around people's arms.
所以他把他们的胳膊绑住了？
So he ties off their arms?
是的。
Yep.
是的。
Yep.
然后他观察胳膊会发生什么变化。
And then he looks at what happens to the arm.
如果止血带绑得很紧，胳膊就会变冷。
And if you have the ligature really tight, the arm will go cold.
是的
Yep.
但如果你把绑带系得松一点，手臂会变热变肿，因为动脉位于静脉的更深处。
But if you have the ligature a bit looser, the arm will go hot and fat because the arteries are further down in the body than the veins.
于是，通过这些发现，并结合一些对动物的奇特实验，他得出结论：血液确实是在体内循环的。
So from there, and using, like, various weird experiments on animals, he works out that the blood does, fact, go round and round the body.
所以这就是循环系统。
So this is the circulatory system.
他发现心脏将血液泵送到全身。
He figures out that the heart pumps blood around the body.
这是一个
And this is a
虽然并不完全像我们现在所理解的那样，但他已经非常接近了。
It's not completely like we would understand it now, but he's pretty close.
当然。
Sure.
他理解了这一原理。
He gets the principle of it.
是的。
Yeah.
这是医学史上的一次重大革命，非常重要。
And this is a a major revolution in the history of medicine, which is important.
在某种程度上，他之所以能做到这一点，是因为英国内战期间他手头有大量的尸体。
And to a certain extent, he's doing that because he's got a lot of bodies around because the English Civil War.
对吧？
Right?
那里充满了暴力。
There's there's violence.
有战争。
There's wars.
有战斗。
There's battles.
到处都是尸体。
There's dead bodies everywhere.
他有点说，好吧。
He's sort of going, alright.
我见过一些尸体。
I've I've seen some bodies.
那么我们现在是1665年之后了吗？
So are we post 1665 now?
就在之前。
West just before.
是的。
Yeah.
就在之前一点点。
Just before a little.
想一想之前的事。
Think a little bit before.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得是1640到1650年代，我想。
I think it sixteen forties and fifties, I think.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们还需要谈谈的另一个人是克里斯托弗·雷恩。
The other person we need to talk about, Christopher Wren.
里亚，你听说过克里斯托弗·雷恩这个名字吗？
Ria, do you know the name Christopher Wren?
知道。
Yes.
但不是在医学的语境下。
But not in the context of medicine.
哦，那是他最初最热爱的领域。
Oh, that was his that was his first great love.
那是他第一个真爱吗？
Was that his first great Yeah.
他只是把自己转向了他
And he just turned himself He
他涉足过大教堂。
dabbled in cathedrals.
他也涉足过大教堂。
He dabbled in cathedrals too.
是的。
Yeah.
我可以给你建一座大教堂。
I could do you a cathedral.
是的。
Yeah.
但他是个医生。
But, no, he's a doctor.
所以他确实是，你知道的
So he he is, you know
这难道不令人反感吗？
Isn't that disgusting?
你就乖乖待在自己的领域里不行吗？
What you just, like, stick to your lane.
明白吗？
Alright?
我们有些人只有一个领域，还 barely 填得满。
Some of us have one lane and we barely fill it.
这不对。
That's not true.
你既是喜剧演员，又是病毒学家，还是音乐家。
You're a comedian, virologist, a musician.
你有各种各样的领域。
You've got all sorts of lanes.
得了吧。
Come on.
好吧。
Okay.
行了。
Alright.
我在努力。
I'm trying
我也在努力。
to I'm trying
我想为普通人发声。
to speak for the everyman here.
你知道的，播客主持人。
You know, podcaster.
我是个摔跤手。
I'm a wrestler.
我是个，你知道的，我什么也不是。
I'm a you know, I've no.
不是。
No.
他是一位医生，也是一位建筑师，还是一位科学家，还是皇家学会的成员。
He is he's a doctor and an and an architect, and he's a scientist, and he's part of the Royal Society.
他正在做输血研究。
He's doing blood transfusion research.
是的。
Yeah.
我喜欢那个时代的输血实验，因为它们简直疯狂。
I love the blood transfusions they do at this time because they're just wild.
克里斯托弗·雷恩发现，你可以用羽毛笔和羊膀胱之类的东西，把各种物质输入人的静脉。
Christopher Wren works out that you can basically transfuse various substances into people's veins using a quill and, like, a sheep's bladder or something.
我在博物馆里见过他制作的那套装置。
And I've seen the bit of apparatus that he makes in a museum.
真难以想象他们居然能成功把任何东西注入人体。
It is incredible that they ever managed to get anything into people's bodies.
但不管怎样，他开始往人体里注入各种物质。
But anyway, he starts putting various things in.
他想，如果给他们鸦片或葡萄酒，会发生什么？
He's like, what happens if you give them opium or wine?
就是这些各种各样的东西。
You know, these various things.
谁
Who
他给谁做这些实验？
was he doing this on?
肯定不是志愿者吧。
Just Not volunteers, surely.
志愿者这个词太强烈了。
Volunteers is a strong word.
是的。
Yes.
我想他找到了耐心。
Patience he'd found, I guess.
对。
Yeah.
还有狗。
And dogs.
还有狗和动物，对吧？
And dogs and animals, isn't it?
好吧。
So Okay.
好的。
Alright.
他遇到了问题，因为狗会跑掉，正如你所料。
He has problems because the dogs keep running away, as you might expect.
所以，我是说，有一位叫理查德·洛厄尔或者洛厄尔的医生，他进行了第一次狗的输血。
So he's I mean, there's a a physician called Richard Lower or Lower maybe, who's doing the he'd performed the first dog blood transfusion.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你希望那是唯一的，但确实是第一次。
You'd hope the only, but the first.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
不是唯一的。
Not the only.
一旦你找到了把血液输入动物体内的方法，他们就会非常热衷于尝试把不同动物的血液互相输入看看会发生什么。
Once you've got a way of getting blood into an animal, then they're really keen to see what happens if you put blood from different animals into each other.
对。
Right.
有一个时刻，他们开始想，也许我们可以把血液输入那些失血很多的人体内。
There's like a moment where they say, maybe we could put blood into people who've lost a lot of blood.
但他们几乎立刻否定了这个想法，转而研究：如果我把一只胆小的狗的血输入到一只凶猛的狗体内，会发生什么？
But they almost immediately dismiss that idea and instead go down the avenue of what happens if I put, like, the blood of a timid dog into a fierce dog?
这会让那只狗变得温顺吗？
Does it make that dog more tame?
哦，有意思。
Oh, interesting.
是的。
Yeah.
或者，如果我把一只灵缇的血输入到我的巴吉度猎犬体内，它会不会跑得特别快？
Or if I put, like, a greyhound's blood into my basset hound, will it then run really fast?
罗伯特·波义耳参与了大量这类研究。
Robert Boyle's involved in a lot of this.
这基本上就是美国队长的科学，对吧？
This is basically Captain America science, isn't it?
这就是如何给一个书呆子、一个宅男注入能量，让他变得超级强壮？
This is how do I supercharge a a nerd, a dweeb, and make him super strong?
是的。
Yeah.
基本上是这样。
Basically.
从他们一开始做这件事时，你就能看出他们的意图——他们想在人类身上尝试。
And from the beginning when they start doing it, you can see where it's going, which is that they want to do it on a human.
是的。
Yeah.
他们最终设法弄到了一个普通人。
And they eventually manage to get hold of this human.
他们先去了贝德兰，但贝德兰的管理员实际上值得一提的是，他说不行。
They first go to Bedlam, but the keeper of Bedlam, actually, to his credit, says, no.
你们不能随便带走我的病人。
You can't just have one of my patients.
所以这是家收治精神疾病患者的医院吗？
So this is a hospital for people who are mentally unwell?
这是贝特莱姆。
It's it's Bethlem.
是的。
Yeah.
但我们现在通常称它为贝德兰。
But we mostly call it Bedlam now.
于是他们找到了另一个男人，把羊血注入他体内，因为这个人据说疯了。
So they get this other guy and they put the blood of a sheep into him because the guy is supposedly mad.
没错。
That's right.
如果不是从贝德兰弄来的，那这个人是从哪儿来的？
Where did we get this guy if not from Bedlam?
他们付钱给他。
They pay him.
哦，原来如此。
Oh, okay.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
他据说有点疯，但我觉得他主要是缺钱。
He's supposedly a bit mad, but mostly, I think he just needs money.
好的。
Okay.
所以他们给他，我想大概是30个吉尔。
So they give him I think they give him maybe, like, 30 Gilles.
没听说过，哦，我想他总不能直接去银行捐精吧。
Not heard of oh, I guess he couldn't really just do a sperm donation to a bank.
不行。
No.
现在他们就是这么做的。
He's That's how they do it now.
没有献血者。
No blood donors.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
好的。
Okay.
他们把羊的血输入他体内，想着羊温顺安静，结果还真有点效果。
They put this blood of a sheep into him thinking, like, the sheep is nice and quiet, and it kind of works.
他说之后，哦，是的。
He's he says afterwards, oh, yeah.
我感觉很棒，因为他根本就是想再拿一笔钱。
I feel great because he basically wants to get paid again
对。
Right.
再让他们做一次。
And have them do it again.
但与此同时，法国的一些科学家也在对另一个人做同样的事，只不过他们用的是小牛的血。
But at the same time, there's scientists in France doing the same thing with another guy, but they're putting calf's blood in.
过了一段时间，那个人死了，然后就结束了。
And after a while, that man dies, and then it's zip.
他们随后意识到，等等。
They go they then realize, hang on a second.
这行不通。
This isn't working.
好吧。
Okay.
所以，如果我们把羊血输入人体，能称这是糟糕的医学吗？
So we can I think if you're putting sheep blood into people, can call that bad medicine?
哦。
Oh.
就是这样。
There you go.
谢谢，休。
Thanks, Hugh.
那是你的。
That's a you.
抱歉。
Sorry.
就这个笑话。
With that joke.
好的。
Alright.
嗯，我现在又有一个了。
Well, I've got another one now.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。