本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
欢迎来到《你的饮食真坑》播客，我们从不告诉你菜籽油比香烟还致命。
Welcome to YOURDIET SUCKS, the podcast that won't tell you canola oil is deadlier than cigarettes.
我是凯莉·范霍恩。
I'm Kylee Van Horn.
我是佐伊·罗姆。
I'm Zoey Rome.
佐伊，今天咱们聊聊菜籽油和种子油。
Zoey, today, canola oil, seed oils.
我们终于要谈这个了。
We're finally doing it.
你赢了。
You win.
好吧，那就说这个吧。
Okay, we're doing it.
今天我们来聊种子油。
We're doing seed oils.
就是
It's
这是被问得最多的那一集。
the The most most requested to episode.
真的该聊了。
It's be.
我的意思是，确实有很多人问这个。
Well, I mean, it is very requested.
而且我觉得，在很多播客里，大家都会问到这个问题。
I also feel like it's one of the things we get asked on a lot of podcasts.
我感觉，只要我出去跟人说我是做营养科学播客的，他们立马就会问：你觉得牛油怎么样？
I feel like it's something that when I'm out in the world and people find out I host a nutrition science podcast, they're immediately like, what do you think about beef tallow?
我就想，天哪。
And I'm like, oh my god.
这天还早着呢。
The day is too young.
我还没喝完一整瓶伏特加，所以现在还不好说。
I haven't yet had an entire pint of vodka so I can't.
我挺兴奋的，因为这个话题居然在政治领域突然变得这么重要，我真没想到。
I am excited because this is one that I was surprised this topic took on a new salience in political life.
说实话，一年半以前，我压根儿没想过这个问题。
You know, this is something that I'll be honest prior to a year and a half ago, I had never once thought about.
以前我根本懒得去了解哪些油来自种子、哪些不是，饱和脂肪、反式脂肪、胆固醇、心脏病、煎炸用油这些乱七八糟的东西，我本来可以一辈子都不碰这些。
I probably would have been perfectly content to continue living my life without this encyclopedic knowledge of which oils come from seeds and which oils don't and saturated fat and trans fats and cholesterols and heart disease and frying oil and all of this stuff that has gotten wrapped up in this sort of bizarre quasi culture proxy war.
网上关于这个的讨论太多了，社交媒体上天天刷屏，每次一碰到这个话题，我就只想叹气。
There's been so much chatter, so much in the socials about it and it was one of those things that like whenever I would sort of rub elbows with this topic, I was kind of like, sigh.
我本来觉得这跟我没啥关系，毕竟以前也没认真研究过。
I just didn't see myself being very innately interested in it because I hadn't looked very closely into it previously.
所以我特别期待深入聊聊，因为这个话题其实比我想的要复杂得多，也更棘手。
So I'm super excited to to dive in because I think what's fascinating about this topic is it's actually a lot more nuanced and maybe sticky than I had priorly assumed.
这可不是十秒钟就能说清楚的事。
It's not just a ten second debunk
这一期。
episode.
你的意思是，我们不讨论种子油是好还是坏？
You mean we're not gonna say seed oils are good or seed oils are bad for you?
是的，说起来，有个人一直给我们发消息，说我们贬低种子油，但说实话，我们支持橄榄油，因为橄榄油真的绝了。
Yeah, well, for the one, like we had this one person that was persistently messaging us for pooh poohing us for being quote, pro seed oils and like for the record, we are pro olive oil because olive oil slaps.
我们这不是一个表达观点的播客。
We're not this is not an opinion podcast.
我们不是来评判种子油的道德对错的。
We're not here to litigate the moral goodness of seed oils.
我们不代表菜籽油游说团体，既不支持，也不反对。
We do not work for the canola oil lobby as we're not pro, we're not con.
我们的目标是深入研究证据，邀请你和我们一起探索种子油这个复杂又混乱的话题——来吧，抹点油，系好安全带。
We are here to wade into the evidence and to invite you to come along with us on the slippery, slip and slide of seed So oil I say let's oil up and strap in.
对。
Yeah.
这简直太离谱了，菜籽油在美国用得最多，可它最初根本就是工业废料。
It's kinda wild because canola oil, the most, it was like the most used cooking fat in America, started as an actual industrial waste.
等等，你说啥？
Wait, what?
它本来是当机器润滑油用的。
So, it was a machine lubricant.
天哪。
Oh, boy.
这开头可不太妙啊。
This is inauspicious beginnings already.
后来一家肥皂公司想出了办法，把它做得跟猪油一模一样，事情就越发离谱了。
And then, a soap company figured out how to make it look like lard and ran It just gets worse.
他们搞了个大广告宣传，结果这油就进了你奶奶的厨房。
Ran a big ad campaign, and then it got into your grandma's kitchen.
几十年后，同一家公司给一个机构捐了大笔钱，让他们去告诉美国人说这油对心脏好。
And then decades later, the same company cut a very large check to the organization that would go and tell Americans that it was good for their hearts.
所以这背后肯定有个故事，天哪，真是够离谱的。
So there's gonna be a story here, is Oh what we're boy.
是的。
Yeah.
我简直等不及要揭开种子油历史这趟惊心动魄的过山车了。
Cannot wait to unpack the absolutely wild roller coaster that is the history of seed oils.
但我总觉得，很多人对种子油的了解全都是错的。
But what I feel a lot is like it sort of comes from this place of everything you know about seed oils is wrong.
我们的文化特别喜欢这种套路：你以为健康的东西，其实恰恰有害。
Our culture has this almost kink for like this thing that you think is healthy is actually unhealthy.
但当网上有人说你被蒙骗了，关于种子油的历史真相确实存在。
But when people on the internet say that you've been lied to about seed oils on the history, there's some there there.
也许我们先从定义开始吧。
Maybe let's start by defining things.
到底什么才是种子油？
What actually is a seed oil?
你听说过
Have you heard
《八恶人》吗，佐伊？
of The Hateful Eight, Zoey?
我猜你不是在说昆汀·塔伦蒂诺的那部电影。
I'm assuming you're not talking about the Quentin Tarantino movie.
确实，听起来挺像一部电影的。
So I mean, it does sound like it could be a feature film.
没错。
It is.
那就是昆汀·塔伦蒂诺拍的电影。
It is a Quentin Tarantino movie.
是的。
Yeah.
不过除了这部，我就不知道了。
So outside of that, I'm gonna say no.
"讨厌的八人组"是网友给几种主要种子油起的绰号。
The Hateful Eight are the internet's names for the main seed oils.
我们就是喜欢这种"肮脏的十二大"、" naughty 九"、" erratic 11"之类的说法，怎么看都看不够。
We love a dirty dozen, a naughty nine, an erratic 11, we can't get enough of it.
种子油就是从植物种子里压榨或提取出来的食用油，主要的有菜籽油、玉米油、棉籽油、葡萄籽油、大豆油、米糠油、葵花籽油和红花籽油。
So seed oils are just cooking oils that are pressed or extracted from plant seeds, and the main ones are canola, corn, cottonseed, grape seed, soybean, rice bran, sunflower, and safflower.
好的。
Okay.
所以那些东西通常会
So the things that tend to
装在这种大号黄色塑料盒里。
come in those like large yellow plastic containers.
对，这些的关键在于，从化学成分来说，它们富含多不饱和脂肪。
Yeah, the thing that matters about these is that chemically, they're high in polyunsaturated fat.
而且主要是一种，就是我们说的欧米伽-6脂肪酸，具体来说叫亚油酸。
And mostly one kind, is our omega-six fatty acids, is specifically called linoleic acid.
我总觉得这就像契诃夫笔下的omega-6亚油酸一样。
I have a feeling this is like Chekhov's omega-six linoleic acid.
哦，而且
Oh, And
这在第三幕会变得更重要。
this will become more important in act three.
没错，市面上大多数植物油都是用高温和溶剂——通常是己烷——提取的，之后还会精炼。
Yep, most commercial versions of seed oils are extracted with heat and a solvent, usually hexane, and then refined.
这就是为什么它们给人工业感的原因，而且这真不是瞎说。
That's where the, these are industrial feeling comes from and honestly, it's not made up.
我能理解，人们会对用溶剂提取的东西产生疑问。
I can see people having questions about something extracted using a solvent.
这种东西，说实话，听上去就让人提不起兴趣。
Like that, you know, doesn't exactly hit my ears and spark joy.
更大的问题是，它们几乎无处不在，所有加工食品里都有。
The bigger problem here is that they're basically in everything processed.
所以我们吃的包装食品、沙拉酱，还有油炸过的食物、蛋白棒，这些都便宜、耐放，味道也中性。
So, our packaged foods, dressings, if something is fried in the fryer, protein bars, they're cheap, shelf stable, and neutral tasting.
所以，很多人把种子油和健康问题联系起来，很大一部分原因是因为它们大量存在于这些高度加工的食品里，而众所周知，高比例摄入高度加工食品的饮食对身体并不好。
Ah, so, is a big reason that folks are linking seed oils to bad health, a lot of that is because they're in so many of these ultra processed foods and ultra processed food as we know is a diet high in ultra processed food isn't that great for you.
那么，这两者真的能分开来看吗？
So, is it even possible to separate those two things?
这确实有点难，是的。
It's kinda difficult, Yeah.
当有人说‘我戒了种子油，感觉好多了’，他们实际上几乎都是在减少饮食中的高度加工食品。
So, when someone says, I cut seed oils out and I felt better, what they almost always are doing is cutting out a lot of the ultra processed foods from their diet.
还有油炸食品，比如……
And fried food, which like,
如果你平时吃很多高度加工食品和油炸食品，一旦停下来，身体确实可能会感觉好一些。
if you're eating a lot of ultra processed and fried food, when you stop doing that, you might feel better.
对。
Yeah.
很多人说他们因为这个减了肥，但实际上是因为他们不再吃那么多超加工食品了。
A lot of people are like, well, lost weight because of this, and it's actually like, well, you stopped eating a lot of ultra processed foods.
没错。
Same Yep.
这里面牵扯的因素太多了。
There's a lot of confounding variables.
对。
Right.
你得像凯文·霍尔那样，把每一样食物的热量和宏量营养素都精确控制才行。
Like, again, you would have to Kevin Hall your shit and like absolutely calorie and macro match everything, right?
他。
He's
回来了。
back.
他回来了。
He's He made it back
成了必须提到的凯文·霍尔。
into Obligatory Kevin Hall mentioned.
我们知道超加工食品确实有不少问题。
And we know the ultra processed food world does have its own problems.
它们口感极佳、热量密集，通常营养匮乏，而且专门设计来压制饥饿感和饱腹感。
That's hyper palatable, calorie dense, typically low on nutrients, and engineered to override hunger and fullness cues.
是的。
Yeah.
植物油是判断一种食品属于超加工的标志。
The seed oil is a marker that a food is ultra processed.
但它并不是让这类食品有害的根本原因。
It is not the mechanism that makes the food the problem, though.
明白了。
Okay.
所以，这更多是一种相关性，未必是真正的关键证据。
So, it's a correlation, but maybe not the actual smoking gun.
明白了，好的。
Got it, okay.
说实话，我们确实应该少吃点超加工食品，但这并不意味着菜籽油本身在毒害你。
So, the honest version is, yes, we probably wanna eat less ultra processed food, but that doesn't mean that canola oil itself was poisoning you.
太棒了，才六分钟，事情就已经变得复杂得让人着迷了。
I love it, we are like six minutes in and it is already gloriously complicated.
菜籽油是有毒的。
Canola oil is poison.
人们害怕糖，但真正的隐形杀手其实是植物油。
People fear sugar, but the real silent killer is seed oils.
植物油会在你体内停留好几个月。
Seed oils stay in your body for months.
它们会积累在你的脂肪细胞、皮肤，甚至大脑里。
They build up in your fat cells, in your skin, and even in your brain.
它们扰乱你的荷尔蒙，破坏你的新陈代谢，耗尽你的精力。
And they mess up with your hormones, They destroy your metabolism, and they kill your energy.
你在外头吃的东西，不管是沙拉酱、薯条还是油炸食品，几乎全都用的是工业种子油。
Almost everything that you eat outside your home, any outside food from healthy salad dressing to potato chips to fried food, all of them are cooked in industrial seed oils.
解决办法很简单。
The solution is simple.
用天然的食材替代毒素。
You replace poison with life.
做饭用牛油、酥油、橄榄油、椰子油，选大自然的脂肪，别选工厂生产的。
Cook with tallow, ghee, olive oil, coconut oil, fats from nature, not from factories.
如果你在评论区打‘blueprint’，我就告诉你我和我的客户每天是怎么做的。
If you comment the word blueprint, I'll show you what myself and my clients do every day.
我看过那个TikTok视频了。
I mean, I have seen that TikTok.
你手里还举着‘是的’的牌子。
You've got the sign holding Yes.
行，知道了。
It Okay.
但这种怀疑并不仅仅针对超加工食品。
But the suspicion isn't only about ultra processed food.
这里有一段很长的历史，我知道你做过研究，佐伊，来给我们梳理一下这段背景。
There's a whole history here, and I know you did the research, Zoey, to take us through take us through this history.
这段历史相当漫长，而且可以说充满争议。
There is a pretty long and I'll say checkered past here.
1900年的时候，植物油在美国家庭添加脂肪中的占比还不到1%，算是很低的，但到了世纪末，这个数字已经飙升到85%。
In 1900, seed oils were about 1% of the added fat in the American diet, is pretty low, but by the end of the century, they were about 85%.
这简直令人震惊。
That's astounding.
在一个世纪左右的时间里，一个国家的饮食结构被彻底重塑了——就在我们祖父母那一代人身上发生的，而且这绝非偶然。
That is a complete overhaul of how a country eats in about a hundred years like in our grandparents' lifetimes and it didn't happen by accident.
在那之前，也就是1900年以前，人们几百年来一直用动物油、黄油、猪油、牛油来烹饪。
Before that, before, you know, 1900, people cooked with animal fats, butter, lard, beef tallow for centuries.
所以现在，这些东西又开始回归了。
So it's coming back.
现在又回潮了。
It's coming back.
我们又要像祖辈那样做饭了。
We're gonna cook like our grandparents again.
而引发这一切的油，根本不是食品。
And the oil that kicked this off wasn't even food.
就像你提到的，棉籽油是19世纪的工业副产品，常被用作机器润滑油、灯油和肥皂原料。
Like you mentioned, cottonseed oil was an industrial byproduct of the 1800s that was often used as machine lubricant, lamp oil and soap.
说白了，这就是棉花加工后的废料。
Basically what this was was the runoff of cotton processing.
后来也不知谁脑子一抽，说：‘嘿，用这个炸东西试试。’
Then I guess someone was like, sick, let's fry with that.
它们用途挺广的。
They are multipurpose
1800年代那会儿，情况确实不一样，我明白。
The using 18 was a different time, I get that.
我不太明白，为什么在给女性投票权之前，你们就急着用棉籽油炸东西了？不过我也不是那时候的人，确实说不准。
I don't totally understand why you're trying to fry shit in cotton oil before you let women vote but again, I wasn't there, so I don't know.
它变成食用油，只是因为鲸油太难搞了——我真想让鲸油重新当 frying oil，太想了。
It only became food because whale oil which I want my like make frying oil whales again hat so bad.
鲸油变得稀少又昂贵，毕竟它来自鲸鱼，而石油后来成了机器的主流润滑剂。
Whale oil got scarce and pretty expensive because of the whole it comes from whales thing and petroleum took over for machinery.
于是突然之间，大量棉籽油积压在那儿，没人要，人们就琢磨：要不试试这个？
So suddenly there was all of this cottonseed oil sitting around with nowhere to go and people were like, well, let's try that.
那工业废料是怎么跑到每家每户的厨房里的呢？
So how does the industrial waste end up in everyone's kitchen then?
宝洁公司，就是那个
Procter and Gamble, which
你可能知道的做肥皂的公司。
as you might the soap company.
1908年，他们申请了氢化技术的专利。
Nineteen o eight, they patented hydrogenation.
所以，他们把氢气通进液态油里，让它凝固，看起来和用起来都像猪油。我得说，科学真是厉害，居然能想到往棉籽油里加氢气然后让人吃。
So pumping hydrogen through liquid oil to make it solid so it looked and behaved like lard, I guess shout out science for being like, what if we just put hydrogen in this cottonseed oil and ate?
这种操作我压根儿想不出来。
Like, that would just never occur to me.
这简直像是史上最糟糕的调酒方式。
It just seems like the worst version of mixology ever.
不过，我们的老朋友 Crisco 就是这时候诞生的。Crisco 是 Crystallized Cottonseed Oil（结晶棉籽油）的缩写，他们在 1911 年推出了这款产品。
But this is where our good friend, Crisco was born which is short for crystallized cottonseed oil and they launched it in 1911.
这背后伴随着当时最猛烈的广告攻势之一。
This came with one of the most aggressive ad campaigns of the era.
他们聘请了J.
They hired J.
华特·汤普逊公司，把Crisco塑造成一种现代、科学且纯净的物质，声称它比动物脂肪更容易消化，还出版了一本专门的Crisco食谱。
Walter Thompson who sold Crisco as this modern scientific and pure substance claiming it was more digestible than animal fat and they published a whole Crisco cookbook.
他们向家庭主妇和医院免费寄送样品，并改写大量食谱，用Crisco替换黄油和猪油，这简直就是一场早期的传统主妇网红营销战役。
They sent free samples to housewives and hospitals and rewrote a ton of recipes to swap out butter and lard, sort of having the o g trad wife influencer campaign.
所以
So
他们只发给了主妇，没发给男管家。
they didn't have housemen that they sent this to, just housewives.
真让人烦，老兄。
So annoying, dude.
那些食谱手册，都是冲着主妇去的。
To the cookbooks, they're like, they're going to the Housewives.
就是冲着主妇去的。
They're going to the Housewives.
最可怕的是，这招见效快得惊人。
And it the thing that's scary is it worked shockingly fast.
1912年，美国人买下了260万磅的Crisco。
Americans bought 2,600,000 pounds of Crisco in 1912.
到了四年后的1916年，这个数字涨到了6000万磅。
Four years later in 1916, 60,000,000.
在我那四年里。
Oh In my four years.
从那以后，销量就一路飙升了。
And after that, it just scaled up.
到了三十年代，大豆油超过了棉籽油。
Soybean oil overtook cottonseed in the thirties.
二战期间，黄油和猪油都被征用供给军队，家里就改用植物油来填补空缺。
World War two rationed butter and lard for the troops so vegetable oils filled that gap at home.
致棉纺业的男女同胞们，你们生产的棉制品，正在每一个战场上助力赢得战争。
To the men and women of the cotton industry, the products of the cotton industry, the work of your hands are helping to win the war on every battlefront.
它们对我们的将士来说，和枪支坦克一样不可或缺。
They are as necessary to our fighting men as guns and tanks.
到了五十年代和六十年代，菜籽油和玉米油也相继跟上。
And canola and corn followed in the fifties and sixties.
真没想到。
Wow.
这一切都源于一个说法，说植物油比动物油更容易消化，没错。
And that all came from the claim that it was more digestible than animal Yes.
这说法又是来自麦迪逊大道的一家营销公司，而不是科学依据。
Again, a claim that was came out of a Madison Avenue marketing firm, not science.
真惊人。
Wow.
确实如此。
Yep.
这种说法还被写进了食谱里。
That claim in the cookbooks.
到了二十世纪中期，心脏病已成为头号杀手，人人都在拼命寻找原因。
Heart disease at this time was the number one killer by mid century and everyone was scrambling for an answer.
我总爱想象一群科学家围坐在会议室里，大中午的抽烟喝威士忌，琢磨着：为什么？
I always like to imagine a bunch of scientists in a boardroom like smoking cigarettes and drinking whiskey at noon being like, why?
为什么这么多人死于心脏病？
Why is everyone dying of heart disease?
我们其实并不清楚原因。
We don't know why.
就在这个背景下，安塞尔·凯斯提出了他的饮食心脏假说，我们之前已经讲过，他说饱和脂肪会升高胆固醇。
So this into this context steps Ansel Keyes and his diet heart hypothesis that we've covered previously that saturated fat raises cholesterol.
胆固醇会导致心脏病。
Cholesterol causes heart disease.
所以他推断，如果用多不饱和脂肪替代动物脂肪的话……
So he reasoned if you swap animal fat for polyunsaturated fat.
1961年他加入了营养委员会，当时发布的指南建议大家减少饱和脂肪，改用植物油。
He joined the nutrition committee in 1961 and the guidelines told everyone to cut saturated fat and use vegetable oils instead.
他后来发表了所谓的七国研究，分析了不同国家的心脏病发病率，就像我们之前在食品政策那期聊过的，这个研究其实有不少争议。
So he published what was known as the seven country study looking at heart disease rates among other countries which as we discussed on our food policy episode from a while back had some criticism.
他常被批评选择性使用数据——原本他研究了22个国家，最后却只选了其中7个来发表，这个数字差别，相信在听的各位都清楚。
The cherry picking that he's often accused of is that he looked at 22 countries originally and then just decided to publish on seven, which is a different number than 22 for those of you following at home.
他只公布了那些支持他假说的国家数据，而把像法国这样的国家排除在外——法国人吃很多饱和脂肪，心脏病发病率却并不高，这显然跟他理论对不上。
So he just published the data from the countries that fit his hypothesis and left out ones like France that didn't where they eat a good bit of saturated fat and have like That's not skin heart to health, right.
这根本就不是科学，安塞尔。
I'm like that's just not science, Ansel.
谢谢。
Thanks.
他的支持者在2017年一篇详尽的论文中指出，说有22个国家的说法歪曲了这项研究的实际设计。
And his defenders in a detailed 2017 paper argued that the 22 countries version misrepresents how the study was actually designed.
所以这里头其实挺复杂的。
So there is some complexity here.
情况很模糊。
It's murky.
这场争论引发了上百万场网上推特大战，无聊透顶，这儿就不重复了。
This is the debate that has launched 1,000,000 online Twitter wars that are extremely boring and not worth recapping here.
但批评确实有依据，说凯斯是骗子，这也不是专家共识的立场。
But the criticism does have a real basis but Keyes is a fraud is not exactly where expert consensus has landed either.
接下来这部分，我觉得也特别值得怀疑。
And then here's the part that I think also earns a good bit of suspicion and skepticism.
明尼苏达冠状动脉实验，不是那个饥饿实验。
The Minnesota coronary experiment, finally not the starvation experiment.
谢谢，明尼苏达。
Thank you, Minnesota.
这项大规模对照试验发现，用植物油替代脂肪虽然降低了胆固醇，却没提高生存率，有些分析甚至显示参与者的状况更差了。
Which was this big controlled trial found that swapping in vegetable oil lowered cholesterol but didn't improve survival and in some analyses, people actually did worse.
这些数据尘封了几十年，直到2016年才被重新发掘并分析——给那些在档案里翻出旧数据的科学考古学家们点个赞，他们说：等等，这东西不能就这么埋了。
That data sat unpublished for decades and only got recovered and analyzed in 2016, which like, shout out to the science archaeologists out there that are like, wait, Let's take this out.
是的。
Yeah.
他们问：你们当年那一大堆心脏健康数据，到底去哪儿了？
They're like, what did you do with all that heart data?
还有一股不小的重新包装风潮在暗中进行。
There's also been a not small amount of rebranding going on.
棉籽油听着像工业原料，完全不像能吃的东西。
Cottonseed oil sounds industrial and not at all like food.
大豆油听起来简直怪到家了。
Soybean oil sounds weird as hell.
植物油一听，还以为是从花园里长出来的呢。
Vegetable oil makes it sound like came out of a garden.
我也不太确定这到底是什么东西。
I'm not totally sure what it is.
而且
And
大多数人其实都以为，
most I mean, people yeah, most people kind
我真想象不出你去挤胡萝卜的样子。
of I honestly picture you like milking a carrot.
说实话，一听到植物油，我就想到有人在挤豌豆。
Like truly, vegetable oil to me, I picture someone squeezing like a sweet pea.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这里的关键在于，确实存在利益冲突。
So the through line here is real because there are genuine conflicts of interest.
这项研究中确实存在方法论上的疑问，而且也有明确的发表缺口。
There are real methodological questions in this research and there's a documented publication gap.
这一路走来，种种因素让公众开始觉得：别信科学，别信医疗体系，他们就是在骗你，好从大棉籽公司赚钱——而这种事确实发生过。
So there are steps along the way that got us to where we are, where it sort of opened up the space for everyone in the public to be like, don't trust science, don't trust the medical establishment, they're just lying to you so that they can take money from big cottonseed, which had happened.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得这种心态在政治光谱的两边都存在，对吧？
And I think this is on both sides of the political spectrum, right?
很多人都觉得：别信大公司生产的种子油。
Where people are like, don't trust big, the seed oil.
是啊。
Oh, yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
百分之百的共和党人。
On 100 Republican percent.
还有民主党人，没错。
And Democratic Yeah.
就像乔·罗根、格温妮丝·帕特洛和塔克·卡尔森这些人，他们在这所谓的‘邪恶种子油三位一体’里居然都凑到一块儿了。
It's like the horseshoe of Joe Rogan, Gwyneth Paltrow, like Tucker Carlson are all touching tips here in this like really cursed holy seed oil trinity.
然后我们现在又开始推崇牛油。
And then we've got our beef tallow at
就在当下。
the moment.
我们用上了牛油。
Got our beef tallow.
那些沉迷于这套说法的怪人，他们的交集简直就像一摞煎饼，层层叠叠。
Like, the Venn diagram of like weirdos who are into this shit is just like a stack of pancakes essentially.
所以考虑到这些，我觉得科学界对这些油的负面结论出现得一点都不意外，甚至应该有更清晰的证据链摆在我们面前。
So given all of that, I think it's pretty normal that you'd expect the science on the oils to be just as damning for there to be an even clearer through line of here's the smoking gun.
那我们来做个小角色扮演吧。
So let's do a little bit of role playing.
我就是一个在TikTok上关注纯肉饮食的人，我要跟你讲讲我在网上看到的那些关于种子油的说法。
I am a guy who has been on carnivore TikTok and I'm going to tell you all of the things that I have seen online about seed oils.
哇哦。
Wow.
准备好了吗？
Ready?
开始吧。
Go.
我这次可是认真投入了。
I'm gonna get I've been getting method with this.
我这几天只吃鞑靼牛肉。
I've been eating only steak tartare all
一整天。
day.
完美。
Perfect.
开玩笑的。
Just kidding.
我刚吃了一盘羽衣甘蓝沙拉。
I just ate a kale salad.
这简直是最不肉食的了。
It's like the least carnal.
羽衣甘蓝沙拉配石榴，典型的公共广播电台风格、环保布袋男的餐食。
Kale salad and pomegranates like an extremely NPR tote bag ass meal.
但好吧。
But okay.
第一个说法。
Claim one.
食用油会引发炎症。
Oils are inflammatory.
当你摄入像大豆油这样的植物油时，大量的亚油酸会积累在你全身的细胞和组织里。
When you eat seed oils like this soybean oil, large amounts of linoleic acid accumulate in all of your cells and tissues.
这些都不是好东西，很明显，吃这类植物油会导致炎症加剧。
These are not good things, and they are clearly indications of increased inflammation with seed oils like this.
谁要是说植物油不会引起炎症，那他肯定没看过这些研究。
Anyone who says seed oils aren't inflammatory has never read this research.
如果你想减轻炎症、更健康，就把所有这类植物油彻底从饮食中去掉。
If you want to decrease inflammation and be healthier, completely remove seed oils like all of these from your diet.
欧米伽-6脂肪酸会引发炎症。
Omega-six fatty acids cause inflammation.
亚油酸会在体内转化成花生四烯酸，进而生成那些促炎物质。
Linoleic acid turns into arachidonic acid which makes these inflammatory compounds.
所以，植物油正在让我们所有人都处于发炎状态。
Ergo, seed oils are inflaming all of us.
如果你连续十四天不再摄入植物油，会发生什么？
What would happen if you stop consuming seed oils for fourteen days?
只要吃两周的种子油，就会让细胞老化加速。
Just two weeks of consuming seed oils can increase the age of your cells.
你的免疫系统也会受到严重打击。
Your immune system takes a massive hit as well.
种子油富含高度促炎的欧米伽-6脂肪酸，还会让某些细菌产生更多炎症。
Seed oils are highly inflammatory omega-six fatty acids, and seed oils can cause certain bacteria to create more inflammation.
这就是为什么很多人吃了C之后会出现腹胀或胆囊问题。
This is why so many people get bloating or gallbladder issues after consuming C.
有差异。
Diff.
所以。
So
你提到的这个通路，从科学上讲确实是存在的。
the pathway itself that you're talking about is technically real.
很好。
Great.
当油酸转变成花生四烯酸时，它会成为促炎物质的组成部分。
When oleic acid can become arachidonic acid, is a building block for pro inflammatory compounds.
明白了。
Got it.
但转化率其实很低。
But the conversion rate's pretty low.
我们说的是，大概只有百分之零点二的亚油酸会...
We're talking about like point 2% of What?
亚油酸，你
Linoleic acid you
天哪，好吧，明白了。
My God, okay, great.
但当你真正做实验，让人摄入更多亚油酸并测量炎症指标时，实际上根本看不到这种效果。
So, and then when you run the actual trials, give people more linoleic acid and measure inflammation, you don't actually see that.
有意思。
Interesting.
2017年的一项随机试验荟萃分析发现，对炎症标志物没有明显影响。
A 2017 meta analysis of randomized trials found no real effect on inflammatory markers.
哦，有意思，明白了。
Ah, interesting, okay.
斯坦福的克里斯托弗·加德纳，权威性没得说，直接说这种说法是曲解了科学证据。
And then Christopher Gardner at Stanford, who's about as credible as it gets, flat out calls the omega-six causes inflammation idea a mischaracterization of the science.
所以这个观点其实站不住脚。
So, would say this one's pretty weak.
也许在培养皿里是这样，但在真人身上就不成立了。
It might be true in like a petri dish, but when we're in actual humans, not really.
明白了，所以。
Got it, so.
不过我觉得情况没这么简单，接下来我们可能要谈另一个观点了。
But I do think it gets a little bit more complicated, and that's where maybe our next claim is going.
对。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
第二个说法。
Claim number two.
这个观点我确实听过，不只是那些光着膀子跳冰水的人这么说。
This is one that I do hear from people who aren't just shirtless guys in a cold plunge.
欧米伽六和欧米伽三的比例。
The omega-six to omega-three ratio.
我得承认，我这辈子从来没想过自己的欧米伽比例是多少。
I'm gonna cop to the fact that I have spent approximately 0% of my life thinking about my omega ratio.
我是不是早就掉进欧米伽的坑里了？
Am I digging myself into an early omega grave?
我还以为欧米伽就一种呢。
I didn't know there were more than one omega.
是的，有好几种。
Yeah, there's multiple.
比如欧米伽三、欧米伽六，为什么啊，到底为什么？
Like omega-three, six, Why, why?
天哪，又怎么了？
Get a new Oh my god, what?
为什么？
Why?
问题是这样的
Here's
挑战在于，我确实会跟一些合作的人提到这个，如果他们说想深入研究自己饮食的细节，天啊，
the challenge, and I do actually, I bring this up to certain people if I am working with them and they're like, I really wanna take a bigger deep dive on the details within my Dear God,
你生活中到底发生了什么，让你对欧米伽比例这么较真？
what is happening in your life that you wanna get into the nitty gritty on omegas?
我宁愿把泰勒·谢里丹拍过的所有剧集都看完，
I would literally rather watch every TV show Taylor Sheridan has ever made before
不，我明白了。
No, I get into okay.
如果你真的有慢性病，而我没有，
If you, in all fairness, if you had chronic disease I have not.
那可能就是你想要深入研究欧米伽的原因了。
That might be There we something you would wanna Okay.
明白。
Okay.
你再详细说说，继续讲讲。
So tell me more, tell me more.
或者只是有患慢性病的倾向。
Or propensity for chronic disease.
对。
Yeah.
过去一个世纪，我们的欧米伽-6摄入量大幅上升，而有助于平衡炎症的欧米伽-3却一直很低。
So, over the last century, we have massively increased omega-six consumption, while omega-3s, which tend to be inflammation balancing, stay low.
对。
Yeah.
所以，这里的概念是这两种物质会竞争同一种酶。当欧米伽-6占主导时，欧米伽-3的作用就会受到限制，明白吗？
So, the idea here actually is that the two compete for the same enzymes, and when omega-six dominates omega-three, the omega-three can't do as much, Okay.
理想情况下，欧米伽-6和欧米伽-3的比例应该在2:1到4:1之间。
So, when we look at what the ideal ratio of omega-six to omega-three should be is, it's something like from two to one to four to one.
但普通美国人的比例往往高达10:1甚至20:1。
And the average American is more 10 to one or 20 to one.
天哪。
Oh, boy.
那是，所以
That's So
那个差距还挺大的。
that not gap is pretty big.
那就像哈林篮球队比赛里的比分一样悬殊。
That's like a score at the Harlem Globetrotters game.
对。
Yeah.
这可不是什么好事。
It's not what you wanna see.
明白了。
Okay.
但关键在于换个角度看问题。
Here's the reframe though that matters.
在一项英国生物银行的大规模研究中，样本超过了八万五千人，规模相当可观。
In a huge UK Bio Bank study, 85,000 plus people, which is pretty big.
这个样本量很扎实。
This is solid sample.
可你看那些针对更年期女性的研究，有时候才十几个人参与。
When you look at studies of women in menopause, there'll be like 13 subjects.
没错。
Yes,
八万五千人。
85,000.
你看，参与人数远不止十几个
See, are more than 13 people
而是成千上万的人
out there.
这项研究还持续了整整十三年
This was done over thirteen years as well.
太棒了
Love that.
研究发现，无论是高Omega-6还是高Omega-3，都与更低的死亡率相关
Found that both high omega-six and high omega-three were linked to lower mortality.
问题不在于Omega-6摄入过多，而在于Omega-3摄入不足。也就是说，如果你同时摄入大量Omega-3和Omega-6，死亡率反而更低，而不是更高
The problem wasn't necessarily too much omega-six, it was too little omega-three, so it is that So like, if you ate high omega-three and high omega-six, they're saying there isn't higher mortality, there's actually lower mortality.
真有意思
Fascinating.
但如果两者差距太大，问题就出在这里了
But if there's a big gap there, then that's where the problem lies.
我真觉得很多人吃了很多欧米伽-6，却很少摄入欧米伽-3。
I do legitimately think there are a lot of people eating a lot of omega-six and not a lot of omega-three.
因为如果你做一下这类分析——当然，我不是说每个人都得去仔细计算自己脂肪的组成。
Because if you do some of that analysis, again, like, not that I'm saying everyone needs to go out and analyze their fat breakdown.
你得用这唯一一次宝贵的人生，去关注那些细节，尤其是如果你因为炎症而饱受慢性病困扰的话，或者——
You need to spend your one wild and precious life getting in the nitty, I mean, again, if you're struggling with chronic disease as a result of inflammation Or
如果你有家族病史，那这就是你该留意的事。我之前和一些人一起分析过，发现很多人摄入的欧米伽-3其实很低。
if have a family history something, that's But something you wanna look when I have looked at it with people, the omega-three consumption for a lot of people is not very high.
而这些欧米伽-3通常来自核桃、奇亚籽、亚麻籽这些食物。
And that typically is coming from things like your walnuts, chia, flax
是的。
Yeah.
还有鱼类，类似这样的东西。
Fish, that sorta thing.
对。
Yeah.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
我的意思是，你可别陷在20比1的区间里。
I mean, you don't wanna be in that 20 to one zone.
你总说解决办法是多补omega-3，而不是光减少omega-6，但你怎么知道自己到底缺不缺呢？
So, you keep saying that the fix is more omega-three, not just less omega-six, but how do you actually know if you're short on it?
我从来没查过自己的omega水平。
I've never gotten my omega levels checked.
如果真有这玩意儿，我往奶昔里扔点亚麻籽，不就完事了？
If such a thing exists, can't I just throw a couple flax seeds in a smoothie and call it good?
是啊，这恰恰就是问题所在，对吧？
Yeah, well, that's part of the problem, right?
很遗憾，你可能得更仔细地查一查才行。
Probably gonna have to, you will have to look a little bit more closely at it, unfortunately.
真够烦人的。
Lame.
很多人其实吃了一点omega-3，或者就像对待碳水化合物那样，觉得差不多就行了。
Most people, they might be consuming a little bit of omega-three, or they're like, Oh, I, this is kinda like the carbs thing.
我吃碳水。
I eat carbs.
我超爱碳水。
I love carbs.
但真要细究起来，你会发现你根本没吃够。
And then it's, when you get into it, it's like, but you're not eating enough of them.
对，没错。
Yeah, yeah.
omega-3我也吃，但可能一周就吃一勺亚麻籽。
And it's with the omega-3s, I eat omegas, and it might be like one serving of flax a week.
你想想，这恐怕远远不够。
And you're like, maybe not.
也许可以多吃点三文鱼，补一补这个缺口。
Maybe a little few more salmon there to bridge that gap.
对素食者来说，这确实挺难的，因为……
For someone that's vegan, that could be actually kind of tough because Yeah.
如果你不吃鱼的话，那
If you're not eating fish, that
光靠核桃补充Omega-3，吸收率太低了
It's a lot of walnut and the omegas are way less bioavailable
对，核桃里的Omega-3含量远远不够
Yeah, than walnuts, and products are very high in omega-three.
没错
Yeah.
所以平均下来，你每周得吃两到三份，每份大概110克左右的鱼
So you need like two to three servings roughly on average of a four ounce portion Yeah.
这样才能摄入足够的Omega-3
Of fish per week to get omega-3s that you need.
这比大多数美国人吃的鱼可多多了
Seems like a lot more fish than most Americans are eating, for sure.
是啊
Yeah.
即使这样，如果有人说‘我是素食者，我不吃鱼’，那我会说，那你得吃很多核桃、奇亚籽或者亚麻籽，但这就有点难了，因为你提到过，身体转化的效率本来就不高。
And then even so, if somebody's like, but I'm vegan and I don't need to eat fish, then I'm like, well, you gotta eat a lot of walnuts chia seeds or flax seeds, and that might be a challenge because of what you said, the conversion rate isn't necessarily Yeah.
要获得我们所需的EPA和DHA，可不是件容易事。
There to get that EPA and DHA that we are looking for.
你能跟我讲讲这个转化过程吗？
So can you tell me a little bit about that conversion thing?
具体是指什么呢？
Like what is that talking about?
Omega-3其实有好几种不同的形式。
There's a couple of different forms of omega-three.
我们有ALA，有EPA，还有DHA。
We've got Oh, our
没想到咱们这么快就聊到这么深的内容了。
I feel like we got in deep so fast here.
我们有ALA，有EPA，还有DHA。
We have our ALA, we've got our EPA, and we've got our DHA.
对。
Right.
EPA和DHA更有利于调节炎症，我觉得。
And our EPA and DHA are the ones that are more inflammation balancing, I guess.
明白了。
Okay.
ALA可以转化成EPA和DHA，但转化率大概只有百分之五到六。
ALA can be converted to EPA and DHA, but that conversion rate is only about a five to 6% rate.
这个比例不高。
That's not very high.
确实不太理想。
That's not great.
所以如果你每天想摄取两到三克的EPA和DHA，又只靠吃奇亚籽和亚麻籽，那得吃下相当大量的量才行。
So, if you're trying to get two to three grams of EPA and DHA per day, and you are eating chia and flaxseed, it's gonna be a lot chia and flax to get that two to three grams of EPA and So, lot of
得吃好多奇亚籽啊。
chia, dude.
对。
Yeah.
所以，如果你说，哦，我在燕麦里加了亚麻籽，那就没问题了，这跟吃鱼完全不是一回事。
So, like, if you're saying, Oh, I put flax in my oatmeal, I'm fine, that's not the same thing as eating fish
确实不是。
It is not.
每周吃两三次鱼。
A couple times a week.
对。
Yeah.
所以也不是完全没有用。
So, it's not nothing.
确实有帮助，但可能比大家想的要难一些。对。
It does help, but it might be a little bit more challenging than what people Yeah.
我的意思是，我觉得一个解决办法可能是吃点藻类Omega补充剂。
I mean, I guess a solution here might be taking like an algo omega supplement.
如果你是素食者，想补充营养，可以选藻类提取的补充剂。
If you're a vegan and you wanna take a supplement, you could take an algo one.
这个主意真好。
Love it,
所以，鱼体内的Omega-3其实也是来自藻类。
love So, that's where fish get their omega-3s from their
藻类补充剂？
Algae supplementation?
没错。
Well, yes.
对，就是这样，鱼也是靠吃这种胶囊获取的。
Yes, exactly, they take a pill
给鱼用的外源性藻类补充剂。
for Exogenous algae for fish.
没错。
Yes.
不过它们是靠吃藻类为生的，而且
They're feeding on the algae, though, and
这种营养物质会在鱼体内积累，就像鱼肉沙拉一样。
they get that accumulation It's of fish salad.
如果你真想去海底刮藻类来吃，也不是不行。不过你最近怎么样？
If you want to go and scrape algae off the ocean floor and eat it, you could do that I am how are you?
我的植物性饮食应用
My plant based app
我只吃生的藻类。
is I only eat raw algae.
我们的冠名赞助商Rabbit刚满十周年了。
Our title sponsor, rabbit, just hit 10 years old.
r是小写的，因为他们依然比我们更酷，也是我平时训练和比赛时真正穿的品牌。
Lowercase r because they're still cooler than us and still the brand that I actually wear to train and race.
为了庆祝Rabbit十周年，我打算做点有趣的事。
So in honor of a decade of rabbit, I'm gonna do something a little bit fun.
列出你最喜欢他们的十件事。
List the 10 things I love about them.
每一年一件。
One for each year.
第一，她们是女性创立的，真的很有范儿，真的很少见，一眼就能看出来。
One, they're woman founded, genuinely cool, genuinely rare, and you can tell.
细节里都能感受到。
It's in the details.
那种只有当你真正穿着它跑步、它往上滑、磨皮肤，或者悄悄坑了你之后，才会想到加上的细节。
The kind you only think to add if you've actually run-in the thing while it rode up, chafed, or otherwise low key betrayed you.
第二，口袋设计。
Two, the pockets.
再也不用像初中时藏违禁品一样，把手机和九个能量胶塞进运动内衣里了。
Gone are the days of cramming my phone and nine gels into my sports bra like at seventh grade and I'm hiding contraband from a substitute teacher.
第三，他们专为特定需求设计。
Three, they design for the specific thing.
越野跑穿越野服，路上跑就穿轻快的。
Trail clothes for trail running, speedy stuff for the road.
四，图案很有趣。
Four, the patterns are fun.
我喜欢亮眼的颜色。
I like to be bright.
我喜欢印花、格子，偶尔来一套让路边陌生人忍不住说‘不错啊’的。
I like a floral, a plaid, or the occasional kit that makes a stranger at the trailhead go, oh, nice.
五，手机口袋不会晃。
Five, the phone pockets do not bounce.
这点我怎么强调都不为过。
I cannot stress this enough.
大多数手机口袋简直是个恶作剧，让你的手机像节拍器一样，三十分钟不停地拍打大腿。
Most phone pockets are a cruel prank that turns your device into a metronome slapping your thigh for thirty minutes.
六，面料特别柔软，尤其是Easy系列，软得像能穿上刚出生小兔子的绒毛一样。
Six, it's so soft, especially the easy collection, which feels like if you could somehow wear the whiskers of a newborn bunny.
柔软并不等于脆弱。
Soft also doesn't mean fragile.
这东西穿起来表现太棒了。
This stuff performs amazing.
第七，这种运动休闲风是真·运动休闲风。
Seven, the athleisure is real athleisure.
他们专门做了一整套适合啥也不干时穿的衣服，但穿上去完全不会让你看起来像刚领了最惨淡的社区软式棒球队制服。
They have a whole collection built for doing absolutely nothing and it happens to not make you look like you were issued a uniform for the world's saddest rec league softball team.
第八，口袋。
Eight, the pockets.
我知道我知道我刚说过口袋，但我还得再说一遍。
I know I know I already did pockets, but I'm doing them again.
真的好到没话说。
They're just that good.
你一定要亲手摸摸这些口袋。
You've got to get your hands on the pockets.
第九，这东西特别耐穿。
Nine, this stuff lasts.
我那条第一代FKT短裤，比你们中好些人的年纪都大，到现在还是跟新的一样。
I still have a pair of first gen FKT shorts that are older than some of you honestly, and they still rip.
Rabbit的产品是真正值得投资的装备，不会洗四次就莫名其妙破个洞，然后被扔进旧衣堆里。
Rabbit is an actual investment in gear that lasts, not something that sprouts a mystery hole after four washes and then gets demoted to the rag drawer.
第十。
10.
你肯定猜到了，新款徒步系列简直太炸了。
You knew this one was coming, but the new trail capsule is absolute fire.
里面用了好多紫色，我说一句：绝了。
It has a lot of purple to which I say, slay.
我其实挺迷紫色的，说夸张点，连我 therapist 都跟我心照不宣，不打算深究这事儿了，毕竟还有更重要的事要聊。
I am low key, I mean arguably high key obsessed with the color purple to a degree my therapist and I have quietly agreed to not examine because there are bigger things to talk about.
但新款徒步系列真的美到犯规，我恨不得把每一件都买下来。
But the new trail capsule is gorgeous and I want every single piece of it.
十年了，这十个理由让你爱上Rabbit，去runninrabbit.com享受九折优惠。
Ten years, 10 reasons to love rabbit and take 10% off at runninrabbit.com.
使用优惠码 JUNEFOOD10。
Use code JUNEFOOD10.
就是 JUNEFOOD10。
That's June food 10.
生日快乐，Rabbit。
Happy birthday, rabbit.
本集由Osmia护肤品牌赞助播出。
This episode is brought to you by Osmia Skincare.
运动员和运动爱好者都有个特点。
Here's the thing about athletes and sporty types.
我愿意花九十分钟给一条小腿做泡沫轴放松。
I will spend ninety minutes foam rolling one calf.
我会追踪我的。
I'll track my.
说到运动员，
Here's the thing about athletes.
我们能花上九十分钟，只给一条小腿做泡沫轴放松。
We will spend ninety minutes foam rolling a single calf.
我们会用四个不同的App来追踪睡眠。
We'll track our sleep across four different apps.
为了心率变异性的一个百分点，我们能搭上整整一晚的休息。
We will lose a full evening to a single percentage point of heart rate variability.
然后，我们用一块闻起来像医院、洗完皮肤干得像一月停车场的香皂，把这一切都冲掉。
Then we'll wash all of it off with a bar of soap that smells like a hospital and leaves our skin feeling like a dry parking lot in January.
恢复不只是线粒体和电解质的问题。
Recovery isn't just mitochondria and electrolytes.
有时候，恢复就是在一个漫长日子的末尾，站在热水淋浴下，闻一闻不属于自己的汗味的东西。
Sometimes recovery is standing in a hot shower at the end of a very long day smelling smelling something that is not your own sweat.
Osmia做的护肤品，就是为了这一刻。
Osmia makes skincare for exactly that.
由医生研发，不含任何合成香精，没有那些健身品牌偷偷加进去、再让你花钱去去掉的成分。
Doctor formulated with no synthetic fragrance, none of the stuff a wellness brand quietly adds and then charges you extra to remove.
我目前最钟爱的是冲浪女孩身体香皂。
My personal favorite right now is the Surfer Girl body soap.
闻起来是野生柑橘、雪松，还带一点点广藿香的气息。
It smells like wild orange, cedar, and just a hint of patchouli.
它的香味就像夏天的感觉——如果夏天能变成一块超棒的香皂的话。
It smells just as good as summer feels if summer felt like an incredible bar of soap.
之后我会用薰衣草身体慕斯，那是用乳木果油和荷荷巴油打发成的，轻盈得不可思议，又润又滑。
After that, I use the lavender body mousse, which is this whipped shea butter in jojoba and somehow weightless and amazing and creamy.
我每晚都用，质地真的特别棒。
I put it on every night and it has the most amazing texture.
我还特别喜欢喜马拉雅身体磨砂膏，是混合了薰衣草和冷杉香的盐 scrub，我爱死了。
And I love the Himalayan body buff, a salt scrub with a lavender and fir scent that I love so much.
我给自己买的，结果我老公一个人把整罐都用完了。
I bought it for myself and then my husband used the entire jar.
看来男生也配拥有好东西啊。
So dudes deserve nice things too, apparently.
选点让你恢复过程也变得有趣的东西，犒劳一下自己。
Treat yourself with something that makes your recovery as fun as the hard work.
去 osmiaskincare.com，用优惠码 YDS20 可享八折。
Head to osmiaskincare.com and use code YDS20 for 20% off.
YDS20，记得在 osmiaskincare.com 使用。
That's YDS20 at osmiaskincare.com.
好了，接下来是第三点。
So, okay, claim three.
这个说法，我得说，我确实觉得有点道理。
And this is the one that I gotta say I do find slightly convincing.
我还没看到太多反驳的声音，挺想听听你们怎么看。
And I have not seen a ton of debunks, I'm excited to hear what you think.
跟我说说这些油的氧化和加工过程吧，我听说这是个大问题。
Tell me about the oxidation and the processing of these oils, because I hear that's a big concern.
我觉得在网上，这方面讨论得不多，但要是有人一口咬定种子油完全没问题，还直接否定这种说法，那其实有点问题，因为这背后确实有依据。
I feel like online, I'm not sure how much this is talked about, but it is something that where if somebody's saying seed oils are completely fine, and they're dismissing this idea, think that can be a little bit problematic, because this actually does have some claim to back it up.
好，你讲讲。
Alright, tell me.
关键点到底在哪？
Where's the there there?
多不饱和脂肪，小 Zoe。
Polyunsaturated fat, Zoey.
它们的化学结构很不稳定，容易和氧气、热量发生反应。
They have chemically fragile spots that react with oxygen and heat.
听起来不太妙。
That doesn't sound great
要是用来炒菜的话。
if you're cooking with it.
严格来说，问题不在加热本身，而是当你把油加热到某个温度以上，它就会氧化，分子结构也会改变。
It's technically not because if you heat the oil past a certain point, it can oxidize and change the shape of the oil.
是的
Uh-huh.
还会生成脂质过氧化物和醛类等化合物。
And cause it to form compounds like lipid peroxides and aldehydes.
哦。
Oh.
确实有证据表明，这些物质可能损伤细胞，甚至与心脏病有关。
And there's actual evidence that these can damage cells and may matter for heart disease.
这不太妙，因为这些油的主要用途之一，不就是用来烹饪吗？
That's not great, because like the whole point of these oils is, or in a lot of cases is cooking with them, right?
它们确实出现在沙拉、蛋白棒里，但很多人平时做饭也用这些油。
Like it's not just, yes, it is in the salads and the protein bars and the whatnot, but a lot of folks are cooking Well, with this
这还挺讽刺的，对吧？
it's kind of ironic, right?
毕竟，心脏病这个说法，本来就是美国心脏协会推广的。
Because the heart disease component is promoted by the American Heart Association.
说实话，
Honestly,
美国心脏协会，你们这下可真打脸了，别推荐那些能用来油炸的东西了。
American Heart Association, big egg on your face, maybe don't promote anything that you can fry shit in.
是的，
Yeah.
要是他们真推荐了个专用炸锅品牌，我真得说，各位，这太离谱了。
You know, like if it's like the had like a preferred fryer brand, I'd be like, okay guys.
对啊，
Yeah.
这就相当于美国大脑协会偏爱某支NFL球队一样荒唐。
It would be like the American Brain Association having a favorite NFL team.
没错，
Yeah.
不可能。
No.
是的
Yeah.
我们得避免这么做。
We need to not do that.
我觉得关键在于我们怎么使用和摄入油，油的保存状态也很重要，比如是不是存放在黄色瓶子里。
I think the key here is how we're using the oil, how we're consuming the oil, what conditions the oil is in, like if it's stored, if the oil is stored in a yellow bottle Yep.
放在暗柜里。
In a dark cabinet Yep.
避免光照，因为光线真的会改变油的分子结构。
Where it's not gonna be exposed to light, because light can actually change the shape of oil.
所以才用黄色瓶子。
That's why it's the yellow.
对，这又是另一个问题。
Yeah, so that's another problem.
你的脸
Your face
所以现在我们做饭用的这个东西，问题就是不能加热也不能见光？
is So the now only problem with this thing we cook with is that it can't get hot or see light?
这感觉像是
That feels like
其实没那么简单，它不是完全不能加热，而是超过一定温度就会变质，很多时候都是在煎炸的时候出问题。
Well, a it's definitely more nuanced than like, it can't get hot past a certain temperatures it And changes so, lot of times, that's when you're frying things.
对。
Right.
这跟用它做沙拉酱是不一样的，对吧。
And that's different than if you were to, I don't know, use this in a salad dressing or Right.
明白了。
Okay.
餐厅油炸锅里的油，可能就有问题。
Things that are from a restaurant fryer, maybe could be problematic.
还有件事我想知道，比如做薯片这种高度加工食品，用油炸的时候，油被氧化成什么样了？
The other thing I do wonder about ultra processed foods, say you're making a chip and you're using oil to make the chip, I'd be curious about how much that's oxidized when you're making the chip.
是的。
Yeah.
比如在炸锅里之类的？
Like in a fryer or something?
我可不想去琢磨我的薯片。
I just don't wanna be curious about my chips.
我只希望它们是安全的，不想去想薯片的事。
I want them to be safe, and I don't wanna think about my chips.
我不是在说哪种油更高尚，但如果你真要吃薯片，这种情况下用牛油果油可能更合适。
I'm not saying this as like a moral hierarchy thing, but if you were having chips then, maybe something like avocado oil would be a better choice in this situation.
再说一遍，我不是在评判谁对谁错，只是值得考虑一下。
So again, not moral hierarchy ing people, but something to think about.
明白。
Okay.
好的，接下来是第四点，这个挺重要的。
Okay, so fourth claim, and this is a big one.
这个说法我在TikTok上看到很多，尤其是那些反对植物油的人经常提。
This is one that I certainly see online a lot with anti seed oil crowd on TikTok.
植物油的消费量急剧上升。
Seed oil consumption skyrocketed.
他们好像在说，这和美国慢性病的增加完全对应。
They sort of present it as if it maps perfectly with the rise of chronic disease in The US.
所以他们认为，就是植物油导致了这些问题。
Therefore, seed oils caused it.
没错。
Right.
但其他所有变化都没人提。
And all the other things that changed
根本没发生。
didn't happen.
没错。
Right.
没错。
Exactly.
对。
Yeah.
不过说真的，确实使用量上升了，记得当时涨了将近80%，但……
I mean, but in all fairness, usage did go up, remember, like 80 However,
女宇航员的数量也增加了，但我可不觉得是她们导致的。
other The number of female astronauts also went up, but I don't think they caused it.
对。
Yeah.
确实如此。
That's true.
屏幕使用时间可能也上升了。
Screen time might have gone up, too.
没错。
Yep.
睡觉，现在没人这么做了。
Sleep, people don't do that anymore.
等等，她说的是谁？
Just What is, who's don't she?
我从来没见过她。
Never met her.
人们的作息变了，我们之前也聊过，超加工食品出现了，大家坐得更多，动得更少了。
People's work schedules change, we talked about ultra processed foods being introduced, a lot of more sitting around, not moving as much.
所以，整个生活方式可能都发生了一点变化。
So the entire way of living maybe changed a little bit.
种子油并不是自我们祖父母那代以来，美国唯一改变的东西。
It's not the only, seed oils aren't the only thing that changed in America since our grandparents were born.
只是其中一种成分。
Just one ingredient
就只是多了一种成分。
Just went one ingredient.
于是，我们就把这定为慢性病的根源。
Then, that's, we're declaring it the cause of chronic disease.
砰砰砰，科学就出来了。
Bing, bang, boom, science.
是的，每当我听到有人搬出那些特别极端的说法，我就特别不自在。
Yeah, I, that's one I always get really uncomfortable when people bring out those really naughty Yes.
看起来还行。
Looking Okay.
那你反过来跟我说说。
So flip it for me.
咱们来好好论证一下这个观点。
Let's steel man this.
咱们也看看另一方面的说法。
Let's let's look at the other side here.
所以，在那些认为种子油完全没问题、让大家别紧张的人看来。
So in the everyone calm down, seed oils are totally fine camp.
他们在这儿在想什么、在比划什么？
What are they thinking about and gesturing at here?
在这一派观点里，最强的证据主要来自心血管健康领域。
So in this camp, the strongest evidence is gonna be in the cardiovascular health realm.
明白了。
Okay.
用种子油里的多不饱和脂肪替代饱和脂肪，确实能有效降低低密度脂蛋白。
So swapping saturated fat for polyunsaturated fat in seed oils reliably does lower LDL.
这一点在大量研究中都得到了重复验证。
And that's replicated across a lot of studies.
在2025年一项发表在《JAMA》上的大型研究中，样本量达到了22万，比那个85万的规模还大，真不错。
In a big twenty twenty five JAMA study, about 221,000, a lot bigger than that 85 Huge, love that.
是的。
Yeah.
研究发现，吃植物油最多的人，全因死亡率比吃得最少的人低16%，而黄油摄入最多的人则高出15%。
People study, found that people eating the most plant oils had sixteen percent lower overall mortality than the lowest, while the biggest butter eaters had fifteen percent higher.
有意思。
Interesting.
癌症和心脏病死亡率也更低。
Lower cancer and heart death too.
明白了。
Okay.
关键在于它们和什么做了对比。
The catch is what they compared it to.
几乎所有的研究都是把植物油和黄油、猪油、牛油做比较。
So almost all of this is seed oils versus butter, lard, tallow.
和这些相比，植物油确实更有优势。
And against those, seed oils win.
但更严谨的批评者并不是说该吃黄油，而是建议改用橄榄油和牛油果油。
But the smarter critics aren't saying eat butter, they're saying use olive oil and avocado oil instead.
不过，这种直接对比还没在严格的头对头试验或研究中进行过。
So, that comparison hasn't really been run-in a head to head trial or study.
明白了
Got
对
it.
这两件事其实可以同时成立
So both things can be true at once.
种子油比黄油好，而橄榄油又比种子油更好
Seed oils are better than butter, and olive oil is better than seed oils.
明白了
Got it.
好的
Okay.
橄榄油确实值得称赞
Kudos to olive oil.
给橄榄油点个赞
Shout out olive oil.
特级初榨橄榄油的证据很充分，部分是因为它的脂肪成分，但也因为它含有多酚和抗氧化物质。
Extra virgin olive oil has great data, partly the fat, but also, it has polyphenols and antioxidants.
但这并不意味着菜籽油就是毒药，网上却总这么宣传。
That doesn't necessarily though make canola oil poison, which is what is touted online.
没错。
Yep.
它只是说明橄榄油可能是更好的选择，在健康等级上更高一些。
It just makes olive oil a potential better option, a higher on the tiers.
明白了。
Okay.
关于这些科学说法复杂甚至可能被操纵，我脑子里还是挥之不去这种想法。
So the idea of some of this science being complicated, if not straight out like compromised, is still kind of like lodged in my head.
这里面有没有资金利益的问题？毕竟我们看科学时，这方面应该双向考虑，对吧？
Is there a funding problem at all in here because that should go both ways when we look at the science, right?
是的。
Yeah.
说到底，我觉得这类事情背后总会有资金方面的困难，对吧？
Well, when we get down into it, right, there's, I feel like there's always gonna be some funding challenges behind these things, right?
没错。
Yes.
做事情需要钱，而钱有时候会让事情变得特别棘手。
You need money to do things and money can make doing things, well, hard.
特别棘手。
Very hard.
感谢我们的 Patreon 支持者。
Shout out to our Patreon.
感谢我们的 Patreon 支持者。
Shout out to our Patreon.
我们完全没接受植物油行业的资助。
Not at all funded by the seed oil lobby.
这个播客也跟植物油一点关系都没有。
This podcast, not at all powered by seed oils.
最大的支持植物油研究机构之一是大豆营养研究所。
So, one of the biggest pro seed oil research groups is the Soy Nutrition Institute.
这名字听起来就像个反派。
I mean, that just sounds like a villain.
而且还是那种最无聊的反派。
It sounds like the most boring villain of all time.
这是大豆产业资助的，佐伊。
It's funded by the soy industry, Zoey.
没错。
Yep.
这一点是公开的，所以你得更仔细地看待他们的研究。
That is disclosed and it means that you need to read their work more carefully.
对。
Yeah.
但同样的质疑也该用在那些由牛肉和乳制品行业资助的研究所上。
But then, the exact same scrutiny applies to studies funded by the beef and dairy industry on the other Right.
致敬牛油，
Here's looking at you, beef tallow.
牛油。
Tallow.
资金支持并不会让研究本身出错，但确实意味着你需要更仔细地审视它。
So, funding doesn't automatically make research wrong, but it does mean that you need to look a little harder at it.
我们实际评估这些研究的方法——你们听众也可以这么做——就是看随机对照试验，或者观察性研究。
So, the way we actually evaluate any of it, which listeners, you guys out there can do it too, was to look at a randomized trial or just observational.
他们测了什么？跟踪了多久？结果能不能重复？
What they measured, how long did they follow people, and does it replicate?
对。
Yeah.
单靠一项研究，永远无法说明全部问题。
One study also is never the full story.
没错。
Correct.
所以，独立研究的整体模式才是关键，而正常使用植物油造成危害的模式根本不存在。
So, the pattern across independent research is the story, and the pattern for harm from normal seed oil use just isn't there.
明白了。
Got it.
我觉得‘正常’这个说法其实很关键。
I feel like normal is load bearing.
对，说得对。
Yeah, know.
我有点不确定‘正常’到底指的是什么。
I'm kind what of normal means.
比如，什么是不正常？再说一遍，如果你摄入的比率是20比1，姑娘。
What like, or what abnormal, I guess again, if you're getting that 20 to one ratio, girl.
是的，但某种程度上，我也能理解这种说法。
Yeah, but to some extent I could see that though.
那会是什么样子？
What would that look like?
你有没有在合作过的客户身上见过这种情况？
Is that something you've ever seen with someone you've been working with?
你之前遇到过那种情况吗？不只是说哎呀你的种子油比例不对，我猜如果比例真到那种程度，不管怎么调整饮食都很难摆脱。
You've been like, what, not just, oh my God, your seed oils are off, but I'm guessing that a ratio like that would be enmeshed in a tough diet regardless.
其实
It
是的，确实是这样。
wouldn't Yeah.
坚持做到这一点真的很难。
Be the only is hard.
在那
In that
整整一个月里。
whole month.
我不想搞什么道德评判。如果一个人整天都在吃超加工食品，那他们摄入的Omega-6肯定会很高。
I don't wanna get up on a moral hierarchy, if somebody is eating ultra processed foods throughout their entire day, they're gonna get a high intake of omega-six.
当然了。
For sure.
这其实就是现实。
Like, that's kind of the reality.
对。
Yeah.
我们做这个播客从来不是为了评判别人的选择，或者他们为了补充能量不得不吃的东西。
We're never on this podcast to like put anyone down on their choices and whatever they have to do to fuel themselves.
没错。
Totally.
但如果你从这个角度看，就会发现，你是不是因为经济条件、获取资源的限制等原因，不得不依赖很多方便食品？
But I think when you look at it that way, it's like, wow, do you have to rely on a lot of convenience foods due to access your financial situation, etcetera?
这可能会让你更难做到。
It might make it harder for you.
就像你说的，这真的很难，因为这里涉及到食物获取、食物正义和食物公平的问题，总不能让人家改用牛油来煎炸吧。
Like you said, it's just so tough because there is, you know, an access, food justice, and food equity thing here, and like yelling at people to make frying oil tallow.
这根本解决不了人们获取厨房设施、新鲜食材，或者烹饪能力的问题，也没法让水果蔬菜变得更便宜。
Again, does nothing to improve people's like access to kitchens, access to fresh food, ability to cook, make fruit and vegetables affordable.
你只是在指责别人的选择，却从不问问自己：为什么有些人真的比我——一个穿着牛仔裤煎火鸡、炼牛肉油的成年男人——的选项更少、更糟糕？
You're just shaming people for their choices and not asking yourself like, well, why do some people have genuinely worse and fewer choices than I, a grown man frying his Thanksgiving turkey and beef tallow while wearing jeans
是的。
has.
没错，就是这样。
Yeah, exactly.
而且这些事情其实都是相互关联的，对吧？
And again, it's a lot of these things are like, they're connected, right?
反式脂肪和高度加工食品的摄入量密切相关，但并不意味着你只要吃一口纸杯蛋糕，体内的欧米伽比例就会立刻失衡。
That seed oil is connected with really high ultra processed food consumption and it doesn't mean that if you so much as look at a pop tart, your omega ratio is going to Right.
明白。
Tank.
如果你还记得我刚才提到的那项研究，即使某人摄入的欧米伽六很高，但如果同时摄入的欧米伽三也很充足，结果还是会有些不同。
And if you remember what that study that I was just talking about earlier, even though someone had a high omega-six consumption, if they also had a high omega-three consumption, outcomes were a little different.
没错。
Right.
吃一个果酱派，再吃一条三文鱼。
Eat a pop tart, eat a salmon.
对。
Yeah.
搞定，平衡了。
Boom, balance.
果酱派配三文鱼。
Pop tarts with salmon.
史上最奇怪的早餐。
The world's weirdest breakfast.
恢复，下一个恢复方案。
Recovery, next recovery option.
如果你
If you
如果你想拉出一次特别奇怪的便便。
want to have an extremely weird poop.
一罐金枪鱼配一个果酱派。
Can of tuna with a pop tart.
我的海洋之鸡果酱派。
My chicken of the sea pop tart.
我想听听你从记者的角度怎么看待这件事。
I wanna hear this from your journalistic perspective.
为什么这个故事能如此强烈地吸引人？
Why does this particular story grab people so hard?
我觉得种子油这件事之所以吸引我，说实话，我平时根本不会主动去关注这个，因为它太偏门了，我也没花多少时间纠结自己的欧米伽比例，但最近它突然成了饮食文化里的热门话题，这让我特别好奇。
I think the thing that interests me about seed oils because like to be honest, like I said, my interest doesn't naturally gravitate towards this because it is kind of wonky and I don't spend a ton of time obsessing about my omega ratio And I am fascinated at how this has become such a large part of our cultural nutrition conversation lately.
我觉得它之所以这么吸引人，是因为它几乎完美地符合一个叙事结构。
And I think that it's so compelling because it has a nearly perfect narrative structure.
它有一个反派——工业食品。
It has a villain in industrial food.
它有个像贾方一样的反派，而英雄则是动物脂肪、祖先饮食、手工黄油，还有你奶奶当年那种吃法。
It's got this Jafar ass side of And the then a hero in the form of animal fat and ancestral eating and churning butter and eating the way that your grandma used to eat.
只要你把原本用的植物油换成黄油，问题就迎刃而解了，简单得很。
If you just simply sub butter in where you used to have seed oils, bing bang boom, it's a perfect simple fix.
还有一群人觉得自己醒悟了，看穿了别人还蒙在鼓里的真相。
There's also this community of people who feel like they've woken up to something everyone else is too asleep to see.
这正好契合了现在流行的叙事模式——医生不想让你知道的真相、你一直被灌输的健康信息全都是错的，确实，其中有些说法是站不住脚的。
So it falls into this narrative that we're really seeing as part of the MAHA movement of doctors don't want you to know and this health information you've been told is totally wrong and yeah, there's some parts of it that are wrong.
它并没有更容易消化。
It wasn't more easily digestible.
那只是个营销噱头。
That was just an advertising campaign.
它没那么好，也没宣传的那么多好处，但这不意味着你就得狂吃牛油。
It wasn't good for all the things that it was sold as but that also doesn't mean that you need to like ball out on tallow.
因为早年人们就积累了对这些说法的不信任，这种不信任一旦通过社交媒体、糟糕的科学传播，甚至更糟的美国政治滤镜放大，就更难澄清了。
So because mistrust was earned early on, that mistrust when filtered through the lens of social media and bad science communication and even worse, American politics.
等这些信息传到最后，简直就像一场全球最离谱的传话游戏，连omega脂肪酸比例的事儿都没人记得了。
By the time it comes out the other end, it's like the world's most cursed game of telephone where people don't even know about the omega ratio any anymore.
所以，那种‘医疗体系骗了你，只有我才知道真相’的说法，对那些觉得被医疗系统或食品体系辜负的人来说，简直像洗脑神曲，我觉得在我们国家，这样的人太多了。
So this idea that you've been lied to by the medical establishment and I alone have the truth is this irresistible sort of earworm for anyone who feels like they've been failed by the medical establishment or the food system which I think in our country
确实能骗到不少人。
Just sell a lot of people.
难道每个人都是这样吗？
Is everyone?
真有人觉得整个食品体系、医生全都完美无缺、好评如潮吗？
Is there anyone who's like, oh yeah, a 100% food system, sick, doctors, incredible, rave review across the board, you know.
从来没出过任何问题。
Never had a bad time.
所以我觉得这里最让人不安、也最有趣的地方在于，这些体系确实让很多人失望了。
So I think the uncomfortable and really interesting part here is, is that these things have failed a lot of people.
当初宣传种子油能预防慢性病的那些承诺，其实根本站不住脚。
A lot of the promises that we were sold on in terms of seed oils ability to prevent chronic disease wasn't accurate.
所以当有人说你以前关于食物的所有认知都是错的，这话里确实有点道理。
And so when someone says everything you were told about food is wrong, there's a seed of truth there.
这就像一颗油乎乎的小种子，触动了人们真实的不满，哪怕具体说法夸张得离谱。结果，种子油反而成了人们对整个食品体系深层焦虑的替罪羊。
There's an oily little seed and that taps into a real grievance even when the specific claim is way out over its So seed oils end up standing in for this much bigger and more legitimate anxiety about the whole food system.
再说，如果你看看美国人平时怎么吃，能接触到什么食物，有多少是油炸的——如果你还硬说一切都好得不得了，那简直是故意视而不见。
Because again, if you look at the typical American diet, how people eat, the access that we have to foods, the amount of food that Americans eat that is deep fried, I think you'd have to be kind of willfully ignorant to be like, nope, flying colors, things look awesome, right?
它承认了很多人对饮食体系和自身饮食状况都感到沮丧，却不肯去深入探讨健康的社会决定因素，也不愿细究营养科学或市场营销被如何扭曲。
So it acknowledges the fact that a lot of us feel pretty bad about our food system and feel pretty bad about diet and rather than saying, let's look at social determinants of health and let's get into the weeds about the nutrition and the ways that science or marketing has been compromised.
它直接抛出个简单答案：只要改用牛油煎炸就行了。
It subs in this easy answer and all you have to do is fry shit in beef tallow.
对。
Mhmm.
我觉得真正有趣的是，这早就不再是营养学的讨论了，早就不是了。
So I think that the thing that's really fascinating is that this truly stopped being a nutrition conversation a long long time ago.
所以我想知道，从你的角度看，食用油是怎么变成文化战争的象征的？
So I am curious from your perspective how did cooking oil end up as essentially a proxy culture war?
为什么这件事会让人们把自己的身份都绑上去？
Why is this something that people attach their whole identity to?
网上有一大群人，他们的全部生活就是避开种子油、开牛油餐厅，还追捧谢丽尔·海恩斯。
Like, that's a whole thing online where people's whole thing is avoiding seed oils, opening tallow restaurants and Cheryl Hines.
我们刚才提到过，无论是健康主义的左派，还是民粹主义的右派，都对这事特别愤怒。
Well, we were mentioning it earlier, but it the wellness left and then the populist right, everyone's furious about it.
确实如此。
Oh, yeah.
对。
Yes.
百分之百如此。
We've got A 100%.
两边都对同一件事怒火中烧，这恐怕是少有的情况了。
Two sides being furious about the same thing, which is probably one of the only things.
是啊，不管是阿拉巴马的莫比尔，还是加州的马林县。
Yeah, I mean, it could be Mobile, Alabama or Marin County, California.
这就像是个马蹄形。
And like, it's a horseshoe.
我们有讲究天然饮食的妈妈账号，有生酮饮食的专区，还有右翼网红迈克·萨诺维奇。
Yeah, we've got Crunchy Mom feeds, we've got Carnivore Corners, right wing influencer, Mike Sanovich.
我老是
I keep
知道他是谁。
that I know who he is.
基本上，已经画出来了。
Basically, diagrammed it.
左翼的疑病症表现是新冠。
Left wing hypochondria is COVID.
右翼的版本则是种子油和超市小票。
The right wing version is seed oils and grocery store receipts.
确实如此。
So true.
现在种子油简直就是食品体系里的购物小票。
Like, seed oils really are the grocery store receipts of the food system right now.
我觉得这里共同的点——你刚才提到过——就是对大型食品企业和医疗体系的不信任。
So, I mean, I think the uniting thing here, which you mentioned, is like a distrust in big food and the medical establishment.
而种子油正好成了大家共同的靶子。
And seed oils give this shared villain Mhmm.
然后这些不满跨越了党派界限，却都指向了同一个错误的目标。
And then the grievances cross both party lines, and then they have the same wrong target there.
没错。
Yep.
它是个完美的象征，因为只用一句话就能测试你的立场。
It's the perfect symbol because it's a one word loyalty test.
是的。
Yeah.
不吃种子油，他们确实有这种餐厅
Seed oil free, which they have it in, I think they have restaurants
现在，T。
now, T.
就像J。
Like J.
我们刚在加州，那里的菜单上都写着含种子油，简直让人困惑——这种凯撒沙拉里到底该往哪儿放种子油？
And I were just in California and on the menus there would be seed oil and it was all these things where it was like, where would you put a seed oil in this kale salad?
我在餐厅吃饭，请别给我端一罐现成的沙拉酱。
I'm at a restaurant, please do not serve me salad dressing out of a jar.
我付钱是让你做一件事，不是给我一罐垃圾。
I'm paying you to do one thing and it's not give me shit out of a jar.
就像看到任何产品上写着‘纯净’这个词，我就觉得：你当我是傻子吧？那我干脆不用了。
It like, it almost, it's one of those things like when I see the word clean on any product, I'm like, well, you think I'm fucking stupid so I don't wanna use it.
对。
Yeah.
这也就是我对菜单上的种子油的感觉——
Which is how I feel about seed oils on menus Well,
就像这样，人们其实希望觉得自己属于某个群体，对吧？
like that, well, you wanna be, well, maybe not you, but people then want to feel like they're part of some kind of tribe, right?
没错。
Correct.
他们会觉得，哦，我属于……
They're like, oh, I'm part of
知道真相的那群人。
this know the truth.
我们……
We're
反对使用种子油。
Anti seed oil.
天哪。
God.
性格更好一点。
Have a better personality,
而且我知道，这成了他们整个身份认同的一部分，这也是我们开始做这个播客的原因之一。
And I know you it becomes their whole identity, which is one of the reasons why we started this podcast.
没错。
Exactly.
因为人们对任何事情都做不到平常心。
Because people just can't be normal about anything.
不管是喝水、计步数，还是吃牛油果，都一样。
Not about water, not about their step count, not about avocados.
保持酷劲。
Be cool.
本期节目由 Microcosm Coaching 赞助播出。这是一家我们参与创立的公司，因为我们希望教练服务能呈现出与众不同的面貌。
Be is brought to you by Microcosm Coaching, which is a company we helped build because we wanted coaching to look like something other than what it usually looks like.
稍后我们会详细聊聊这个。
But more on that in a second.
不知从什么时候起，教练服务给人留下了一种印象，觉得那是一种需要花钱才能享受的奢侈品。
Somewhere along the way, coaching got a reputation for being a thing you earn.
好像非得跑得够快、够认真，或者冲着某个大目标成绩，才有资格去寻求帮助。
Like you have to be fast enough, serious enough, or chasing some big finish time before you're allowed to ask for help.
我觉得这完全反了。
I think that's totally backwards.
好的指导不该由你的速度、目标的大小，或者你付得起多少钱来决定。
Good coaching shouldn't be gatekept by your pace, the size of your goals, or what you can afford.
它不是给已经很厉害的人的奖励。
It isn't a reward for already being good.
它是帮你达成目标的工具。
It's the thing that helps you get to where you want to go.
不管你想要的是什么样子。
Whatever that looks like for you.
也许是你的第一个五公里。
Maybe that's your first five k.
也许是你的第十场马拉松。
Maybe it's your tenth marathon.
也许你只是想跑步，因为这让一整周感觉真正属于自己。
Maybe it's just running because it makes your week feel a little more like it actually belongs to you.
所有这些都算数，也都值得支持。
All of it counts and all of it is worth supporting.
所以我们才推出了山麓计划。
That's why we built the foothills tier.
不需要大承诺，也不用逼自己变成别人。
No big commitment, no pressure to be anyone other than who you are right now.
你可以加入我们的Slack社群，获得教练们的真实帮助，而且不用孤注一掷，就能慢慢弄清楚这是否适合你。
You get access to our Slack community and real support from coaches, and you get to figure out whether this is for you without betting the farm on it.
使用代码Foothills 10，每月只需10美元。
With the code Foothills 10, it comes out to just $10 a month.
想试试看这是否适合你，这点成本真的不高。
That feels like a pretty low bar to find out if this is your thing.
相信我，我们也这么觉得。
Trust me, we think it is.
欢迎访问 microcosmcoaching.com 找到我们。
So come find us at microcosmcoaching.com.
使用优惠码 Foothills 10，每月只需 10 美元就能加入 Foothills 计划。
Use the code Foothills 10 and Foothills is yours for $10 a month.
我们一定会很高兴你这么做，无论你什么时候准备好，我们都在这里等你。
We'll be glad you did and we'll be here whenever you're ready.
Microcosm Coaching，为普通人提供的训练指导，不只是给运动员的。
Microcosm Coaching, coaching for humans, not just athletes.
朋友们，我们得聊聊 Tailwind Nutrition 新出的芒果柚子耐力补给品。
Friends, we need to talk about the new mango yuzu endurance fuel from Tailwind Nutrition.
芒果柚子这味道，一开始听着倒像是香薰蜡烛的名字，或者酒店酒吧里卖二十美元、上面漂着一片罗勒叶的鸡尾酒，完全不像运动饮料。
Mango yuzu did originally sound a little more like the name of a candle or a cocktail at a hotel bar that runs you $20 and comes with a single basil leaf floating on top of it, it did not sound like a sports drink.
但亲爱的，我错了。
But reader, I was wrong.
这东西真的很好喝。
This stuff is genuinely delicious.
这已经正式成为他们家我最爱的夏季口味了。
It is officially my favorite summer flavor in their lineup.
我喝得特别快，速度可能有点离谱。
I have been ripping through it at a potentially unreasonable clip.
昨天我在办公桌前还喝了一些，纯粹是为了好喝，跟运动完全没关系。
I did drink some at my desk yesterday for no athletic reason whatsoever.
实话实说。
Full disclosure.
但重点在于，这不仅仅关乎我个人对一款粉末电解质饮料的惊艳体验。
But here is why this actually matters beyond me having a personal awakening about a powdered electrolyte drink.
耐力燃料把碳水化合物和电解质合在同一个瓶子里，这意味着你能一次性解决夏季训练的两大难题。
Endurance fuel is carbs and electrolytes in the same bottle, which means that you solve two of your biggest summer training problems at the same time.
你在流失水分。
You're losing fluid.
你也在流失钠。
You're losing sodium.
你消耗碳水的速度，光靠喝纯水是根本补不回来的。
You are burning through carbohydrate at a rate that no amount of plain water is going to fix.
你一边慢悠悠喝水，一边嚼能量胶，再啃上九个盐丸，还得在爬坡时同时盯住这三样东西。
You could sip water, chew gels, gnaw on a salt cap or nine, and try to keep track of three separate variables while running uphill.
但如果你喝的是Tailwind，就可以彻底放空，啥也不用想。
Or you could sip Tailwind and think about literally nothing else.
到了第三个小时，你的胃会感谢你——那时候，大多数人自己搞的补给方案早就崩盘了，还是在风景特别美的地方。
Your stomach will thank you around hour three, which is when most people's homemade nutrition strategies start to unravel in a very scenic fashion.
芒果柚子味加入的这一系列口味，总算是没有尝起来像有人强行拿你当小白鼠做的化学实验吧？
Mango Yuzu joins a lineup of flavors that do not taste like a bad chemistry experiment performed on you against your will?
在 tailwindnutrition.com 使用优惠码 YOURDIET20，立享八折。
Use code YOURDIET20 for 20% off at tailwindnutrition.com.
记住，是 tailwindnutrition.com，优惠码 YOURDIET20。
That's YOURDIET20 at tailwindnutrition.com.
欢迎来到夏天。
Welcome to summer.
这已经不是边缘观点了，而且
It's not fringe anymore and
这一点
this is
很多人忽略了这一点。
the part that people miss.
现在的RFK Jr.把植物油称为肥胖流行的主要原因之一，
The current RFK Jr.
他还承诺要用他的牛脂产品终结对饱和脂肪的打压。
Era has called seed oils one of the driving causes of the obesity epidemic and he has been promising to end the war on saturated fat with his tallow products.
天哪。
Oh my god.
对。
Yes.
这怎么就变成公共卫生政策了，你们说？
Which How did this become public health policy, you guys?
是的
Yeah.
现在新的联邦膳食指南把黄油和牛脂和橄榄油并列，列为可接受的烹饪用油。
So now we've got the new federal dietary guidelines listing butter and beef tallow right next to olive oil as acceptable cooking fats.
哇。
Wow.
没错。
So, Yeah.
作为一名营养师，我对此感到非常兴奋，因为终于要迎来这个转变了。
I am super excited as a dietitian to be enduring this
再说一遍，晚上睡不着的时候，我总想着那个食物图鉴，还有葡萄……哦天哪。
right Again, at night when I can't sleep, I picture the food merkin and how grapes Oh, no.
葡萄和黄油挨在一起。
Grapes and butter are right next to each other.
这太离谱了。
That's awful.
这事儿让我半夜睡不着。
It keeps me up at night.
真替那个被派去干这活的平面设计师心疼。
I pity the graphic designer that was given that absolute shit gig.
是啊。
Yeah.
当时他们怎么想的？为什么葡萄和黄油放得这么近？
It was, why are the grapes and the butter so close?
天哪。
My God.
这些东西里有一个格格不入，然后品牌就趁机进场了，对吧？
One of these things is not like Then the this is where like all the brands come in, right?
对。
Mhmm.
既然我们在食物上搞出了文化对立，那就能趁机卖东西了。
Because if we've got this cultural war with food products, we can sell things.
最搞笑的就是，人们总是抱怨大食品公司，说它们怎么怎么不好，
That's what's always so funny is that people are like boo, big food, which
大农业也一样，被骂得挺惨，
like merited, big ag, lot of criticisms.
工业化的食品问题一大堆，可他们提出的解决方案还是工业化食品，只不过贴了个‘原始’的标签，
Industrial food, lot of criticisms, but people's answer to it is also industrial food, but we put the word primal on
就这么回事儿，
it.
是啊，
Yeah.
其实本质上还是一回事儿，各位，
It's the same thing, you guys.
完全一样，
Exactly.
只是换了个包装而已。
Just a different label.
所以现在Steak and Shake把油炸锅的油换成了牛油。
So we've got Steak and Shake switching its fryers to beef tallow.
天哪。
Oh, my God.
然后RFK Jr.出现了，
Then, RFK Jr.
还夸他们重新开始用牛油炸食物。
Showed up and praised them for frying oil tallow again hats.
不是，
No.
Sweetgreen，我真的对你很失望，Sweetgreen。
Sweetgreen, which I'm really disappointed in you, Sweetgreen.
我也一样。
Same.
推出了无植物油的菜单。
Ran a seed oil free menu.
最让我郁闷的就是，平时我待在自己日常环境中，也会碰到这种事。
This is the thing that always bums me out is I, in the course of like being in my natural habitat, run into this.
根本不存在一个我可以完全避开这个话题的世界，因为我偶尔去加州，还是会吃沙拉。
There is not a world where I can just not be in this discourse because I go to California sometimes and eat salad.
是啊。
Yeah.
你们有参与那个无种子油认证联盟吗？
Are you part of the seed oil free alliance certification?
什么？
What?
还有，你得去买那些标着‘无种子油联盟’认证的包装食品。
That's another thing, you have to buy packaged goods that are part of the seed incredible.
就是那个‘无种子油联盟’，Zoey。
Oil free alliance, Zoey.
这纯粹是营销手段。
That's the marketing strategy.
完美。
Perfect.
接下来这部分，每个人都该有点儿警觉了。
So, here's the part that everyone should be a little bit bothered by.
明白了。
Okay.
你到现在还不觉得有问题吗？
This is so because you're not bothered yet?
本意是反对工业食品巨头的民众反抗，结果却给了牛肉和牛脂行业几十年来最好的营销机会，让很多人以为自己在换健康脂肪，实际上只是从一种工业脂肪换成了心血管数据更差的另一种。
As a populist revolt against industrial corporate food, in practice, it handed the beef and tallow industry its best marketing cycle in decades and talked people into swapping one industrial fat for another one with worst cardiovascular data.
是的。
Yeah.
而且大家现在都
And people are
太好了。
So great.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。