回顾：如何在家开始发酵 | 桑多尔·卡茨

大家好，欢迎来到ZOE周报，每周我们都会精选一期播客中的精华内容，帮助您改善健康状况。今天，我们将深入探讨发酵话题。

Hello, and welcome to ZOE recap, where each week we find the best bits from one of

如果您是ZOE的常驻听众，可能已经听说发酵食品是对肠道健康最有益的食物之一。它们富含有益微生物，已被证实能促进从消化到免疫功能等各方面。不过，在家发酵——在自家冰箱里培育细菌和微生物——这个想法可能让人有点望而生畏，更像是在做科学实验而非烹饪冒险。

our podcast episodes to help you improve your health. Today, we're diving into fermentation. If you're a regular ZOE listener, you've probably heard that fermented foods are some of the best things you can eat for your gut health. Packed with beneficial microbes, they've been shown to boost everything from digestion to immune function. Still, the idea of at home fermentation, cultivating bacteria and microorganisms in your very fridge can feel a little daunting, more like a science experiment than a culinary adventure.

这正是桑多尔·卡茨的专长所在。作为发酵复兴运动的领军人物、畅销书作家，他推动了全球发酵风潮。无论您是纯新手还是对泡菜充满好奇，本期内容都将为您提供工具、信心，甚至可能激发您在家尝试发酵的渴望。

That's where Sandor Katz comes in. He's a fermentation revivalist, best selling author, and the driving force behind a global fermentation movement. So if you're a total beginner or just kimchi curious, this episode will give you the tools, the confidence, and maybe even the craving to get fermenting at home.

发酵始终是人类充分利用各地现有食物资源的重要方式。这是我们共有的文化遗产，但过去几代人中实践发酵的人越来越少。当我自称发酵复兴者时，实质上是想重新唤起人们对这些古老技艺的兴趣，帮助大家有信心将它们带入家庭厨房。最简单的蔬菜发酵法当属酸菜法——干盐腌渍。只需将蔬菜切丝增大表面积，轻撒盐即可。

Fermentation has been an integral part of how people in every part of the world make effective use of whatever food resources are available to them. It's part of our cultural legacy everywhere, and yet over the past several generations, fewer and fewer people have been practicing fermentation. And so when I talk about myself as a fermentation revivalist, it's really trying to, you know, revive interest in these ancient practices and basically help people feel confident to bring them into their home kitchens. The easiest way to ferment vegetables of all is what I would describe as the sauerkraut method, dry salting the vegetables. All you do is you shred vegetables, create surface area, lightly salt them.

盐量没有精确标准。轻撒盐后拌匀尝味，根据需要加盐，喜欢的话可加入葛缕子籽、大蒜、辣椒等调料。揉搓蔬菜几分钟使其出水，待汁液充足且风味平衡后，装入容器确保完全浸没在汁液中，静候数日或数周——整个过程就是如此简单。

There's no magic number about how much salt. You have salted lightly, mix it up, taste it, add more salt if desired, add seasonings if you like, caraway seeds or garlic or chili peppers or or anything. Squeeze the vegetables for a few minutes, and that helps get them juicy. Once they're juicy and you like the balance of flavors, pack them into a vessel so they are submerged under their own juices and then wait some days or some weeks. And that's the whole process.

制作泡菜则需额外步骤：蔬菜切丝后需浸入盐水溶液。我不精确称盐，而是通过品尝控制咸度，追求接近海水般的味道，盐度约5%-6%。

For making kimchi, there's an additional step to the process, and that is that I shred the vegetables and I submerge them under a saltwater brine solution. I don't measure the salt, but I taste it, and I'm I'm going for the flavor of the sea. I want it to be somewhere around five or 6%, salt.

相当咸呢。

It's pretty salty.

确实偏咸。静置24小时后，次日便可制作辣酱。通常人们会添加浓缩碳水化合物，比如我的米糊，或是水果基料。

Pretty salty. And then you just leave that for twenty four hours. And then the next day, you go ahead and you make a little spice paste. Typically, people add some sort of more concentrated carbohydrate, and that could be grain based like my rice paste. It could be fruit based.

有人会使用梨、苹果等水果，也有人直接加勺糖或蜂蜜。方法多样，但添加浓缩碳水化合物能促使发酵更剧烈快速。

Sometimes people will use pears or apples or or other fruit. Sometimes people just add a spoonful of sugar or honey. There's various ways to achieve that, but just by adding some more concentrated carbohydrate element just makes for a more vigorous, faster fermentation.

桑多尔，最令我惊叹的是——这可能暴露了我的医学思维定式——您完全没提到需要添加特定菌种。事实上您压根没提及细菌，它们就像魔术般自然出现了。能否解释下为什么我们不必严格把控这个环节？

And, Sander, one of the things I find amazing, and, again, I think this shows you how, I guess, medicalized I am, is that you didn't say you go and add the particular correct bacteria into your kimchi. Right? In fact, you didn't even mention anything about the bacteria. They just sort of magically appeared. Could you help us to understand, and why don't we have to be really careful about this step?

当然。我们之所以不需要添加实验室培养的特定纯菌种发酵剂，是因为我们清楚地知道所有植物都携带着乳酸菌。微生物学家和植物学家普遍认为，地球上从土壤中生长的所有植物都寄宿着乳酸菌。因此，只要我们创造适合乳酸菌繁殖的条件，它们自然就会发挥作用。当然，你可以在网上买到植物乳杆菌的白色粉末包装，商家会很乐意将其作为制作酸菜、泡菜或其他发酵蔬菜的发酵剂卖给你。

Sure. The reason why we don't have to add some specific pure culture starter that's been propagated in a laboratory is that, you know, we have a clear understanding that all plants are host to lactic acid bacteria. I mean, there's a broad consensus among microbiologists and botanists that all plants growing out of soil on planet Earth are host to lactic acid bacteria. And so if we create the conditions in which the lactic acid bacteria can thrive, they are always there to do so. Now, I mean, you could certainly find on the Internet a packet of white powder of lactobacillus plantarum, which people will be happy to sell you as a starter for making sauerkraut or kimchi or other kinds of fermented vegetables.

但在我看来，这种产品带有剥削性质——因为蔬菜本身已含有乳酸菌，根本无需额外添加发酵剂。

But, you know, I would consider that to be an exploitative product because the lactic acid bacteria are already present on on on vegetables, and you don't need to add a starter.

这太神奇了。你的意思是...我原以为细菌可能来自空气，但实际上植物本身就自带菌群？就像它们预先封装了自己的细菌，你只需要加盐、装罐，就能开始发酵了？

That's amazing. So you're saying because I thought maybe it was in the air. You're saying, actually, the plants themselves, so, like, they come prepackaged with their own bacteria. You literally just have to add the salt, put them in the jar, and and you're away.

植物从土壤中生长，而土壤是个令人难以置信的复杂系统，我们才刚刚开始研发工具来理解其复杂程度。幼苗的萌发本就离不开土壤微生物的帮助，植物的茁壮成长也依赖于土壤微生物的协作。可以说，土壤是这一切的源头——就连我们饲养的食草动物，它们的肠道菌群同样是由土壤微生物滋养的。

I mean, they're growing out of the soil, and the soil is this just incredible complex system that we're only beginning to develop tools to be able to appreciate the level of complexity of it. But the seedling is emerging, you know, partly with the help of microorganisms in the soil. The plant is able to grow and flourish with the assistance of microorganisms in the soil. And so, you know, the soil is the source of all of this. And the organisms that enable the animals that we raise for our food that are grazing on plants, you know, it's the soil organisms that that are feeding their gut bacteria as well.

所以我认为，微生物系统始于土壤也终于土壤，那里才是生命永恒更新的源泉。

So, I mean, I would say the microbial system really begins and ends in the soil, and that's the source of the constant renewal of life, really.

这种描述有种美妙的连通性对吧？通过食物和细菌，我们其实与土壤和世界紧密相连。这与当下西方主流的食品互动方式截然不同——现在所有食物都装在塑料包装里，分离灭菌程度越高反而越受推崇。有趣的是，就在我们发现肠道微生物对健康至关重要的同时，也意识到人类原本与体外细菌始终保持着这种互动关系。听你这么说，发酵似乎正是重新建立这种联结的方式之一？

There's a sort of beautiful connectivity as you talk about this, right, where actually, you know, through the food and the bacteria, you're connected back to the soil and the world, and that's obviously very different from the interaction with food that most of us have now in the West where everything comes in a, you know, packaged plastic wrapped solution. And, you know, the more that it has been separated and sterilized, the better. And I do think that it's amazing that just as we've been discovering how important these microbes are in inside our gut for our health, we also see equally well that we always used to have this very interactive back and forth connection with the bacteria outside us. And I guess, you know, what I'm hearing is that fermentation is one of these ways that you can start to maybe pull this back together again.

完全正确。而且我认为不止发酵——我们更有必要重新连接食物源头，夺回我们的食物主权。食物不是普通商品，它是我们存续的基础，源自植物与动物。

Absolutely. And I I mean, I think beyond fermentation, I mean, we really have an imperative to reconnect to the sources of our food and reclaim our food. You know, food is not a commodity like every other commodity. I mean, you know, food is what enables us to continue to exist. Food comes from plants and animals.

觅食行为将世间所有生物与其环境相连。而人类以所谓进步之名，实则切断了这种联结。我们必须重新建立与食物源头的联系，将食物视为我们互动环境的产物。

The pursuit of food connects every kind of organism in the world with its environment. And, you know, human beings, in the name of our sort of supposed progress have really sort of severed that connection. And, you know, I think we need to become reconnected to the sources of our food and reclaim our food as a product of our environment that, you know, we interact with.

如果要尝试自制发酵食品，你会给出哪五个建议？

What would be your five tips for trying fermentation yourself?

第一，不要害怕。别把对细菌的所有焦虑投射到发酵过程中。要明白这些都是经过时间检验的古老技艺，安全性极高。

Okay. Number one, do not be afraid. Do not project all of the anxiety you've ever had about bacteria onto the process of fermentation. Understand that these are ancient practices that have been tested by time and that they are extremely safe. Okay.

第二点，发酵的核心在于调控环境条件，以促进特定微生物生长，同时抑制其他微生物。要清楚你试图创造的条件是什么。以蔬菜发酵为例，只需将蔬菜完全浸没，隔绝含氧空气的流通，这样就能促进乳酸菌而非霉菌孢子的繁殖。所以，务必理解你所要营造的环境。第三点稍有不同，那就是别想得太复杂。

Number two, fermentation is all about manipulating environmental conditions so as to encourage the growth of certain organisms and simultaneously discourage the growth of others. Understand what the conditions you're trying to create are. In the case of fermenting vegetables, it's simply getting the vegetables submerged, which protects them from the flow of air with oxygen, and that's what supports the flourishing of the lactic acid bacteria rather than, say, spores of molds. So, you know, understand the condition you're trying to create. A third one I'll say that's a little bit different is, you know, don't overthink it.

不要脑补所有理论上可能出错的环节把自己逼疯。要知道这些都是简单的过程，接受它们的朴素本质就好。第四点，勇于尝试实验。重要的是这个过程本身。

Don't try to imagine everything that could theoretically go wrong and make yourself crazy. You know, these are simple processes. Like, accept the simplicity of them. Number four, don't be afraid to experiment. It's the process that's important.

添加不同蔬菜或调味料完全没问题。泡菜并非单一食品，而是指代这个极其多元的传统饮食文化。既有地域差异，也有家族秘方——每个奶奶都有自己秘不外传的独家配料。

You know, if you add a different kind of vegetable or a different kind of seasoning, that's great. Kimchi is not one thing. You know, kimchi is the name for this, you know, incredibly diverse tradition. And there's a lot of regional variation, but there's also just family recipes. And, you know, every grandma who has her own secret something that she adds into it.

所以大胆尝试吧，像玩游戏一样享受这个过程。第五点，发挥创意将这些食物融入日常饮食。对不习惯发酵食品的人来说，这才是难点所在。多尝试不同搭配。

So don't be afraid to experiment. Don't be afraid to play. Number five, be creative about how you incorporate these foods into your diet. I think for a lot of people who aren't accustomed to them, that's the hard part. And just experiment.

比如我喜欢配鸡蛋吃，喜欢当三明治酱料。应用方式无穷无尽——我还会把酸菜或泡菜的汁液调进沙拉酱。关键是要有创意。

Like, I love it with eggs. I love it as a condiment on a sandwich. You know, there's endless applications. I love to use the extra juice of the sauerkraut or the pickles in salad dressings, but, you know, be creative.

最后分享一个观点：如果存在一个简单的日常习惯能持续改善你的身心状态呢？我想介绍自己每天服用的健康法宝——由Zoe科学家研发的肠道补充剂「每日三十」。它精选30多种植物成分，包括海藻、菌菇和各类纤维。

I'll leave you with one final thought. What if there was one simple habit that when repeated could change how you feel for the better? I'd like to tell you about something that I do daily for my own health. It's called Daily Thirty, the gut supplement developed by our scientists here at Zoe. Daily thirty is made of over 30 hand picked plants, including seaweed, fungi, and different types of fiber.

富含植物蛋白、Omega-3和必需矿物质。每天随餐服用一勺，既能促进健康又能增加饮食多样性。与合成补充剂不同，「每日三十」口感绝佳——设计初衷就是让人享受，因为愉悦的习惯才容易坚持。下次觉得餐食缺乏植物元素时，不妨试试它。

It's a source of plant protein, omega-three, and vital minerals. You simply add a scoop to any meal once a day to support your health and increase the plant diversity in your diet. And unlike synthetic supplements, Day b thirty actually tastes great. It's designed to be enjoyed because when a habit brings you joy, you're far more likely to stick with it. So next time you feel like your plate is missing extra plants, do yourself a favor, try daily thirty.

这个美味又健康的习惯会让你身心舒畅，肠道更会感激不尽。顺便说明：当我们提及「每日三十」作为优质纤维来源时，必须标注每份含4克总脂肪——当然这些全来自植物的健康脂肪。立即登录zoe.com/dailythirty订购吧，下次见！

It's a delicious and healthy habit that you'll feel good about and one that your gut will definitely thank you for. By the way, whenever we talk about Daily thirty as a good source of fiber, we're required to say that it contains four grams of total fat per serving. Obviously, that's all amazing healthy fats from plants. So order yours today at zoe.com/dailythirty. See you next time.