第二季第7集 我的费登奎斯之旅：从乏味到赋能

大家好，我是志伟。在本期节目中，我将接受我的费登奎斯同学亚历克斯·格林的采访，他也是一位资深的身心治疗师，在结构整合、躯体体验、TRE等多种疗法领域都有丰富经验。我们将主要探讨什么是费登奎斯方法，这种方法为何看似反直觉却卓有成效。我也会分享我对神经科学研究与费登奎斯方法差异与关联的见解。本播客同时发布在'红胡子具身认知'播客中，这个系列我强烈推荐给所有对身心疗法、创伤疗愈、禅修等整体健康话题感兴趣的听众。

Hello, this is Zhi Wei. In this episode, I will be interviewed by my Feldenkrais classmate Alex Green, who is also a senior somatic practitioner with experiences in many different modalities like structural integration or roughing, somatic experiencing, TRE, and so on. We will mostly focus on what is Feldenkrais Method, what's so counterintuitive yet effective about this method. I also talked about how I see the differences and relationship of neuroscience research and Feldenkrais Method. This podcast is also published in the Red Beard Embodiment podcast, which is a podcast series that I highly recommend to anyone interested in somatic therapy, embodied trauma healing, Zen practice, and many other holistic health topics.

我目前正与红胡子身心治疗机构合作在线教授费登奎斯方法，相关链接会放在节目备注里。现在，请享受节目吧！

I'm also teaching Felton Crest's method online with the Red Beard somatic therapy, and I will put those links in the show notes. Now, please enjoy!

好的。非常高兴能与李博士对谈。Joy，我们既是同窗又成了好友，在加拿大基洛纳的一年半里，我们不仅在线上交流，还经常一起在地板上翻滚练习。

Alright. Well, I am, really excited to be sitting down with doctor Joy Lee. And Joy, we have, we are classmates. We've become friends. We were we were in our triad for a year and a half, so we've we've spent a lot of time together both online and rolling around on the floor in Kelowna, Canada.

请允许我先做个简单介绍：Joy约一年半前刚获得纽约大学认知神经科学博士学位，她来自中国——具体城市我记不清了，可能是北京？这个我们可以稍后问她。

So let me just set the stage a little bit and introduce who you are. So Joy is a just finished up her PhD about a year or year and a half ago from NYU in cognitive neuroscience. Joy is originally from China. She can I don't really remember where maybe Beijing? We can we can ask her about that.

我们相识于加拿大不列颠哥伦比亚省基洛纳市为期四年的费登奎斯专业培训课程。对于不了解的听众，费登奎斯方法是由以色列科学家、武术家Moshe Feldenkrais创立的身心教育体系，他与Ida Rolf同属西方身心学发展的重要先驱。

And and the reason that I know Joy is that we have been enrolled in a four year Feldenkrais professional training, one based in Kelowna, Canada, which is in British Columbia. And, for those of you who don't know what Feldenkrais is, that's gonna be the subject of our podcast episode today. But Feldenkrais method is a form of what's called somatic education developed by somebody named Moshe. Moshe Feldenkrais, who was an Israeli scientist, martial artist and movement guy. And he was kind of contemporary with Ida Rolf and sort of in that era of the Western movement towards somatics and embodiment.

简言之（节目中会详细阐述），费登奎斯是通过动作练习培养对躯体感知的精微觉察，关注身体-呼吸-神经系统的协同模式。其课程体系通过放慢节奏、提升动觉意识，帮助人们从神经可塑性层面重构动作模式，提升身体效能与舒适度。这只是该方法的部分特点。

And in very, very brief form will define it more fully in the podcast. But Feldenkrais work is largely a movement based practice, but it's not just movement for movement sake. It is a method where you learn to pay careful attention to sensation and the subtleties of how we organize our body, breath and nervous system when we perform any action and Feldenkrais method is comprised of a number of a whole compendium of lessons and a lesson is sort of a formal way of engaging in the Feldenkrais method where you learn to slow things down, attune your awareness to body felt sense and how you attended to yourself while performing a different movement and other somatic explorations and the intention or the hope of those kinds of lessons is to learn something about oneself from an awareness perspective, perhaps even to rewire ourselves a little bit from a neuro neuroplastic perspective and improve the efficiency, the ease, the awareness and the functioning of being in a in a human body. So that's just one description of kind of some of the things that are included in the Feldenkrais methods. Just to be complete these.

除了'动中觉察'课程，还有手法干预的'功能整合'环节——不同于按摩，是通过触觉与动作引导来优化神经系统感知。今天特别想听你分享，在众多身心疗法中为何选择专攻费登奎斯？当然我也会分享我的经历。不如我们就从个人探索历程开始？欢迎来到节目。

So I'm mentioning the awareness through movement lessons is onetwo of the practice. There's also a hands on component that's called functional integration and where the Feldenkrais practitioner works not through massage. It's not like doing body work in other forms, but by using touch and movement cues, helping to develop and refine the awareness of the body and the nervous system in a hands on method anyway. So. What I thought would be really fun with you today, Joy, is is first just to kind of hear your own story about what led you, towards, Feldenkrais method, amongst the many many forms of somatic and bodywork that are out there.

当然。

And, if you're curious, I'll I can share my version of that as well. But so let maybe we'll just talk about kind of how we got here and what we've been learning along the way. So, with that introduction, welcome. Welcome to the podcast.

好的，谢谢介绍。我们肯定会更具体地讨论什么是费登奎斯。

All right. Well, yeah, thank you for the introduction and we'll definitely talk in more detail or concrete ways of what is Feldenkrais.

当然。

Sure.

对我来说，我是在非常严格的中式学术教育背景下长大的，从六岁起就得每天坐在桌前学习很多小时，但我还算是个比较活跃的孩子。我喜欢打羽毛球和篮球。大学时期又接触了攀岩和跑酷。不过大部分时间里，起初这些只是社交活动加上一些基于表现的训练，比如如何在篮球中投篮更准、技术更好。跑酷真正成为了一个转折点，我们不仅追求更好的表现，也开始真正关注如何做到这一点，因为其中涉及大量细节——如何研究并运用身体来完成一个简单的跳跃或奔跑动作。

For me, I just grew up being a relatively athletic kid in the bigger context of very, very strict academic Chinese upbringing, where you're just supposed to sit in front of the table since you're age six and study many, many hours per day. But I like growing up, like playing badminton basketball. And I got into rock climbing and parkouring in my college years. But most of those time, I think at first it's just like social activity plus some performance based training, how to shoot better goals in basketball and have better skills. Parkour was really like a beginning where we are trying to achieve better performance, but we also start to really care about how you do that, because there's so many details of how you study your body and use your body to do a simple jump or simple running.

明白。

Sure.

这真的取决于老师。我恰好遇到了一位更注重意识培养的教学方式的老师。有一次跑酷朋友提到费登奎斯方法，说它很神奇之类的话。当时我完全不懂，只是这几个字眼进了脑子。

It really depends on the teacher. And I happen to got a teacher that is more this awareness based teaching method. And it was among my parkour friends, someone mentioned Feldenkrais and say something, it's magical, blah, blah, blah. At that time, I have no idea. It just some letters entered my brain.

完全不知道那是什么。

Didn't know what's going on.

嗯。

Right.

后来某天在纽约大学的健身房——那里通常有瑜伽、拳击、核心训练等休闲课程——我突然看到了'费登奎斯'这个词。我说：'哦，我听过这个词，可以试试看'。

And then somehow one day in the university gym in NYU, New York University, where they have like recreational class in the gym. It's usually a yoga, boxing, ab exercise. But one day I saw the word Feldenkrais. I said, Oh, I've heard this word. I can give it a try.

就这样开始了。很庆幸那个学期刚好有人在那里开设费登奎斯课程，彻底改变了我的生活。

So that's how I just began. I'm very happy just in that semester, somebody decided to start a Feldenkrais class there and totally changed my life.

还记得你上的第一节课内容吗？

Do you remember what the first lesson was that you did?

完全不记得了。第一年甚至前两个学期的课程中，我的大脑都是空白的，根本不知道自己在做什么。可能有一半时间都在打瞌睡，因为那些动作太轻柔了，而我又总是睡眠不足。

No, not at all. I couldn't remember. Like the first year, probably first two semester during those lessons, my brain was just blank. I didn't know what I was doing in the class. Probably half of those, I was falling asleep too, because it's such gentle, movement and I often sleep deprived somehow.

不过我清楚记得课程开始和结束时站立感觉的鲜明对比。刚开始觉得站得还行，但课程结束后从地面站起来时，突然发现双腿变得异常柔软，平衡感也好了很多。如果没有这堂课，我根本不会意识到自己腿部一直处于紧绷状态。这对我影响很大。

Right. But I did remember a clear contrast of how I stand at the beginning or the end of the class, where at the beginning, I'm like, I feel I'm standing okay. But towards the end, when we get up from the floor and stand up again, was like, oh, my legs, there's so much softer and so much balance now. And without doing this lesson, I wouldn't even realize there's some tightness in my leg. So that was a big thing.

还有其他对比，比如，哦，我的下背部，当我躺在地板上时，最后它们其实可以非常贴近地面。我已经习惯了那种弓起且紧绷的下背部，以至于从未注意到。关键在于，大概一两个学期后，我持续的下背痛消失了。有一天我突然意识到，已经很久没感到疼痛了。不知道具体原因，但很可能与此有关。

And other contrasts like, oh, my lower back, when I'm laying on the floor, in the end, they can actually get very close to the ground. I'm so used to having such an arching and tight lower back to the point I never noticed. And the thing is after maybe one semester or two that my constant lower back pain was gone. This one day, it's like, I haven't felt that for a while. I don't know what happened, but probably related to this.

那么，现在来说说我的创业经历。

So, now it's my startup experience.

所以当你在健身房发现那门课时，它是固定课程吗？就是说你能每周都去，持续一个学期或更长时间？

So so when you found that class in the gym, was it a regular? So you were able to go like, you know, weekly weekly for a semester or longer or something like that?

是的，我想差不多每个学期每周都去。

Yeah, I think it's, like almost every week for every semester.

很好。那么，你在NYU读博士期间发现的这个课程。你本科是学什么的？

Great. Yeah. Well, so, okay. So that was when you were at NYU and NYU was your was your PhD work. What was your what was your undergrad in?

我在北京大学的本科专业是物理，辅修心理学。

I did my undergrad in physics major and psychology minor in Peking University in Beijing.

嗯。

Yeah.

当时其实我不知道自己想学什么。物理听起来像是在探索宇宙的所有奥秘。加上人们都说本科应该选个难的专业，所以我就选了物理。

I think at that time I didn't know what I wanna study. Physics just sounds like understanding, discovering all the secrets of the universe. Plus people say you're gonna do something difficult for your undergrad. So I chose that.

明白了。

Got it.

不过从一开始我就知道，我并不真的想成为物理学家去拿诺贝尔奖什么的。我只是想尝试看看。就像在博物馆里随手涂鸦——很酷。

Yeah. But at the beginning, I knew I don't really want to be a physicist and win Nobel Prize or something. I just want to check it out. I say it's like having a stroke in the museum. Cool.

那么是什么吸引你投身认知神经科学的呢？

And then what drew you to cognitive neuroscience?

我想在本科快结束的那个阶段，我真正思考的是：我想更深入地了解人类。就像学习物理时，你几乎接触不到关于人的本质。我不知道如何理解他人，如何理解自己，如何与人互动。后来我开始辅修心理学，这很有帮助。但确实，我认为也是出于相似的动机——我想探索更深层、更基础的方式来认识人类，而神经科学听起来像是一个正在兴起、更接近本质的领域。

I think at that point, towards the end of my undergraduate, I was really thinking, I want to know more about human being. Like studying physics, you almost have no touch about human being. I don't know how to understand other people, how to understand myself, how to interact. I started like the psychology minor and that was helpful. But yeah, I think it's also the similar idea that I want to discover some more deep and fundamental ways of seeing human being and neuroscience sounds like this more emerging field that is more fundamental.

这可能是我最初非常天真的印象引导我走向这个方向。

That's my probably very naive initial impression that led me to that.

太棒了，真的很棒。所以...因为你是在完成博士学位前就开始费登奎斯训练的。那么是在什么时候你明确意识到...

I love it. I love it. So, so. Because you started, you started the Feldenkrais training before you had completed the PhD. So at what point did it become clear to you?

我意思是那是在疫情期间。记得我们训练的第一阶段是在线上进行的。你开始这个项目时是否想过'好吧，我已经了解了费登奎斯，这就是我想从事的职业'？

I mean that was during the pandemic. Remember because we were online for that first portion of our training. Did you kind of begin the program thinking? Okay, I I've learned about Feldenkrais. This is what I want to do for my career.

还是说只是想要深化这方面的知识？是什么促使你直接投身这个训练项目的呢？

Or was it just sort of I'd like to deepen my knowledge of this? How did it come about that you that you jumped into the training program?

是的，我带着'想打开这个黑箱'的想法加入了训练项目。记得在NYU第一年快结束时，有次做费登奎斯课程——那是个经典的骨盆时钟练习。课后我突然感觉能呼吸到骨盆里了，这太神奇了！完全是新体验。之前我读过很多关于呼吸训练的论述，说呼吸可以多么深入彻底...

Yeah, I jumped into the training program with the idea I want to open this black box. So there was one lesson I remember probably towards the end of the first year in NYU when I was doing Feldenkrais lessons, and it's a pelvic clock lesson, a classic one. And after that lesson, I just feel I can breathe into my pelvis, like, what the heck is that? It's such a new experience. Like before, I've read a lot about people training about their breathing and how the breathing can be so deep and thorough, whatever.

但当我尝试自我训练时，反而导致呼吸模式更不自然，出现紧绷和奇怪的感觉。

But when I try to train myself to do that, I just find I resulted in more unnatural breathing patterns and tightening and strange things.

确实。

Sure.

就像在质疑：我为什么要这样做？这根本没有帮助。而做这个骨盆时钟练习时，根本没刻意调整呼吸，却获得了惊人的效果。

It's like, why am I doing this? This is not helpful. Versus doing this pelvic clock thing. Was not attempting to do anything about breathing, but it ended up such an amazing result.

对。

Right.

这感觉真的很棒。没错。就像，这是个黑盒子。我不知道你们对我做了什么。是的。

It's a really good feeling. Right. That's like, this is a black box. I don't know what you guys did to me. Yeah.

而且我想了解更多关于它的事情。

And I want to know more about it.

所以当你说黑盒子时，对你来说有点像是个谜。这个方法是怎么起作用的？为什么它带来了我所感知到的变化？你是想理解它，就像你想掌握这个方法的工作原理？是这样吗？

So so so when you say black box, it's sort of like it was a mystery to you. How does this method work? Why does it have the changes that I'm perceiving? And you wanted to understand it's like you wanted to get a grasp of how does this method work? Something like that?

是的，我真的很想知道它为什么有效。背后的机制是什么？

Yeah, I really want to know the reason why it works. What's the mechanism behind this?

你现在对‘它是如何工作的’这个问题理解到什么程度了？

How far along are you now in your understanding of the how it works question?

嗯，我想我已经全部解答了。所以，又一个谜团。好吧，很好。不。有一件事是我在训练的第一年完全没搞明白。

Yeah, I think I've answered it all. So, another mystery. Okay, good. No. So one thing is I didn't get what it is at all in my first year of training.

在我训练的第一年，大部分时间都在打瞌睡并试图与之对抗。有些很棒的课程我还没学到，比如嘴唇的细微动作。现在这是我们的第一课。那真的拓宽了我对费登奎斯方法能做什么的视野。

In my first year of training, was mostly falling asleep and trying to fight that. Didn't There's some cool lessons that I haven't learned, like minute movement of the lip. Now it's our first lesson. That really expanded my view of what Feldenkrais method can do.

但是

But

尽管如此，我还是觉得，我不知道发生了什么。有时有效，有时无效。

still, I was like, I don't know what's going on. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

但是

But

对我而言仍是个谜。我觉得到了第二、第三年，我才逐渐发现重点不在于我们做什么动作，而在于我如何执行这些动作才是真正关键的。

still a mystery to me. I think it's more towards the second and third year that I starting to find it's not necessarily what are the movements that we're doing, but really important is how I do the movement.

是的，能否请你详细阐述一下？我想大概有两个方面可以展开：一是你提到的课程，正如我在开场白中说的，有各式各样的课程——摩谢·费登奎斯本人开发的课程就有成百上千种，后续其他教师也发展了许多。通常一节课时长45分钟到1小时。当我们说'课程'时，大多数情况下这些课程并非...

Yeah, can you can you let's let's elaborate on that for a second. I guess there's maybe two things to elaborate on. One is, you know, you were talking about lessons and there's so many different kinds of lessons that I mentioned in the intro, you know, there's hundreds, if not thousands of of lessons that Moshe Feldenkrais himself developed as well as you know, other teachers along the way. And you know, the average lesson is a forty five minutes to an hour. It's typically a fairly when we say lesson, it's sort of most of these lessons are not.

它们并非即兴创作的。这不是一种临场发挥的探索，而是将某些学习内容封装成课程的形式。可能是关于骨盆与头部关系的认知，可能是探索呼吸中存在的可能性，也可能是关于身体反射机制（比如婴儿时期的吸吮反射）的学习。

They're not invented on the spot so much. It's not like a it's not an it's not an extemporaneous exploration. There is some some learning that's been encapsulated into a lesson and it might be a learning about how your pelvis is is in relationship to your head. It might be a learning about the possibilities that exist within your breath. It may be a learning about some reflex mechanisms that exist in the body like the sucking reflex from when you're an infant.

也可能是关于骨骼与地面关系的认知。每节课都蕴含着无数这样的智慧珍珠。有趣的是，有时候你大概知道这节课要学什么——比如为什么这节课要这样设计？但更多时候你并不清楚。

It could be a learning about the relationship of the your bones relative to the ground. So there's there's any number of sort of, sort of, pearls contain. And and the funny thing about any given lesson is sometimes you have an idea of what you're sort of supposed to be learning. Like why is this lesson the way it is? But very often you don't know.

就像你有个模糊概念：这节课可能与下颌有关，或者与脊柱和双脚相关。但多数时候你并不完全明白课程为何要如此编排。如果和我当初一样，第一次上课时往往只是——就像你之前说的——注意到某些变化，但整个过程就像黑箱操作。即便现在，很多时候仍带有这种神秘色彩。

It's like you have a rough idea. This has something to do with my jaw or something to do with my spine and my feet. But most often you don't know too much exactly why a lesson is sequenced the way it is, etc. And if you're anything like me, Jahweh, the first time I do a lesson usually it's just like, okay, like you said earlier, noticed whatever the change is, but it's, it's you know, it's there's a bit of a black box element, you know, even now. Oftentimes there's a bit of a black box element.

对我来说，往往需要重复练习某节课几次，或是教给别人时，才会突然领悟：原来必须按照这个特定顺序进行，才能引发课程设计者想要传递的学习效果。总之我想先简单说明下我们讨论的这些课程背景。不过能否请你谈谈课程的多样性？因为在我看来，有些是动态外显的大幅度动作课程，有些则更侧重觉知或精微感知。能否解释下这个范围？我觉得初学者可能很难理解课程包含的广度。

And for me, it's it's often the repetition of a lesson a few times or teaching it to others where where at a certain point I start to grasp like I understand why it needs to follow the the set of the the the sequence that it does in order to evoke the the learning that's intended through that lesson. Anyway, I just wanted to give a quick little context about these lessons that we're talking about. But could you speak for a moment about sort of like the variety of lessons because there's to me there's really like dynamic and external sessions that are big movements. But then there's ones that are more awareness based or subtle subtle subtlety based. Could you just explain a little bit that because I think people would have a hard time grasping the range that's included in in these lessons.

好的，让我想想怎么表达。有人问如何系统学习费登奎斯方法？在我看来其实并没有明确的体系。

Yeah. Let me think how would I say it. Because some people say like, how do you systematically learn Feldenkrais method? To me, there's really not a clear system.

没错。

Right.

可以从几个维度来理解课程：有时像是针对身体某部位的精细研究，比如涉及吸吮反射的口唇下颌。我们经常讨论骨骼连接，这是理解课程的重要部分——要明白动作的解剖学关联，以及如何多角度学习脊柱运动的不同模式，或是髋部与骨盆在不同方向的连接方式。虽然可能从局部入手，但最终总会延展到全身。

So like there are several ways or dimensions you can think about a lesson. Sometimes it's a, you can think it's like fine study of certain part of your body, like the sucking, there's the mouth, there's the lip or the jaw. So we talk a lot about skeletal connections. And that's one big part to understanding the, lesson is what is the anatomical connection of things and how do you want to learn this different ways of your spine can move different patterns of it, or different patterns of your hip can connect to your pelvis in different directions. And then it's usually it can be study of one part of your body, but usually it will extend to your whole body.

就像我们从一些微小的下颌运动开始，比如开合、左右移动。然后我们会问，你的眼睛如何影响下颌运动？最后，我们会整合骨盆和整个身体的协调。所以这从来不是一个非常局部的研究，但可能是入门的好方法。然后，是的。

Like we start from some minor jaw movement of opening close, left and right. Then we say, how does your eyes change the jaw movement? And in the end, we incorporate the pelvis and your whole body. So it's really never a very local study, but that could be a thing to get into it. And then, yeah.

嗯，是的。你可能会往那个方向走，但我想说的是，这是一堂非常精细的觉察课程，专注于某个局部。就像我们上次的柔道翻滚练习，对吧？我们学的是一个很大的动作模式。但不像在武术课上，我们可能一次性学会整个模式然后练习和演示。

Well, yeah. And then you may be going there, but I was to say, so that's so a sucking lesson, you know, it's a very it's a refined awareness to one part. And then there's, you know, like in our last, you know, judo role, right? We learned a very big pattern. But unlike if we were in a judo martial arts class, where we might learn the whole pattern at once and then practice it and demo it.

大概花了，我不知道，10节课才达到最终效果。所以是的。也许你可以谈谈那个，或者婴儿翻滚，或者那些更明显的动作。

What took, I don't know, 10 lessons to get to to get to the to the final result. So yeah. Yeah. Maybe you could speak about that or baby rolling or just those more overt movements.

是的。我特别喜欢那些更具功能性的课程，比如婴儿翻滚就是经典案例——当你躺在地上时，如何从侧身过渡到仰卧或俯卧。顾名思义，这个动作的灵感来自婴儿学习翻身的过程。我们会拆解他们学习的步骤，可能最初并不清楚最终目标，也不了解整个过程，只是感受轻拍地面和身体与地面的连接。

Yeah. I really like those more functional lessons where you are actually achieving a thing like baby roll is a classic way to, when you're laying on the ground, how to transition from sideline to the laying on the back or laying on the front. And as the name suggests, it's kind of inspired by how babies learn to do that. And then we are really separating the steps of when they're learning them, probably first not knowing what I'm doing in the end, not knowing the whole process. I'm just feeling tapping the ground and my connection to the ground.

当我转移重心时，我的重量是如何在地面上转移的？地面又如何协助我移动？诸如此类。

And when I'm shifting my weight, how is my weight shifting on the ground? How is the ground helping me to move and stuff?

没错。

Right.

对。所以我们像你说的那样循序渐进。这正是我之前提到的——重点不在于你做什么，而在于你怎么做。不是强行通过失衡或困难的部分，用肌肉硬撑过去。我们会放慢节奏，做些更小更简单的动作，但你会学到最高效的方式。

Yes. So we do it step by step, as you said. And it's really That's where I was talking about, it's not about how you do It's not about what you do, but how you do it. By the way of not just passing through the part of imbalance or difficult and just use your muscle to push us through. And we're really slowing down and doing some smaller, easier things, but you learn how to do it most efficiently.

当所有拼图碎片都到位后，你就能完成更大的动作。我认为这类动作对人们非常实用，特别是当你有伤患时——比如无法轻松从地面站起，或因年龄等其他状况受限。这时你学到的这些轻松方式通常不费力、不强求，却充满乐趣。

Then all the puzzle pieces are here, then you can achieve the bigger movement. And I think those kind of movement is just really functional for people, especially if you have some injury, you cannot do this, like standing up from the ground easily or just aging or other conditions. Then you learn all these easy ways that is usually not so powerful, not so demanding, but enjoyable.

更省力，却更实用、更愉悦。是的，轻松之道。对我来说，'不在于做什么而在于怎么做'这个概念——

Less effortful, but more useful and more enjoyable. Yeah. The path the path of ease. Yeah. To me, that that concept of how you do it's not what you do.

我完全同意这个观点真的非常关键。我们来聊聊这个：'怎么做'具体指什么？对你而言，'怎么做'的哪些改变让这个方法对你更有效？

It's how you do it is is I agree with you really, really key. Let's talk about that. What is the how? What is the what? What changed for you in the how to do it that then made the method more impactful for you?

是的，我可以在这里讲讲这个故事。实际上在我们培训第二年的最初阶段就有一个转折点。一开始我只是抱着‘尽量跟上教学别睡着’的心态进教室，这就是我全部的目标。但在中途，我的思维突然发生了转变。

Yeah, I can tell the story here. There's actually a turning point at the very beginning of our second year of training. So at first I just entered the class like, okay, I'll try to follow the instruction and try not to fall asleep. That's all my goal. But in the middle, just something clicked in my mind.

老师总在强调如何用更省力的方式完成动作？怎样才能更流畅、更轻松？于是我真正开始用心感知——比如平躺时用手掌在地板上滑动这样极其简单的动作。虽然我知道自己能完成，但总感觉存在某种阻力，不够顺滑。于是我开始全心探索：怎样才能让这个动作更轻松？

It's like, the teacher always talk about how do you do it with less effort? How can I do it more smoothly, more easily? So I really trying to sense, I think it's a super simple thing, like laying on the ground and slide to your palm on the floor or something like that. And it's like sliding, I know I can do it, but there is some resistance, there's some friction, there's something not so smooth about it. So I just dived into this endeavor of how do I make it easier?

我能改变什么？如何调整地面上的重心分布？怎样放松肩部某些部位来实现？我几乎完全忽略了老师的指令，不管你说什么教学要点，我都不再跟随。

What can I change? How do I shift my weight on the ground? How do I relax some part of my shoulder to do it? So I kind of totally ignored the teacher. Whatever you say, the instruction, I'm not following it.

如果按部就班，我又会回到用蛮力推动动作的老路。相反，我真正停留在当下感受着，只做非常简单的尝试。到最后站起来时，一切感觉都不同了——我甚至怀疑是不是自己臆想出来的？或许这就是老师一年多来反复强调而我始终未能领悟的要义？

If I follow, I'm just going to do it my old way of make the movement happen, push it. Or rather I was really staying there and feeling it and just doing very simple thing. Towards the end, I stand up and everything felt different. I was like, maybe I just made up something? Or maybe this is the thing the teacher has been saying for a year, more than a year, and I didn't grasp it.

这就是关于'方法'的部分。直到现在我教学时，仍始终强调'通过动作课程培养觉知'——这本质上不是动作课，而是觉知课。为什么我们要做得更慢、幅度更小？不做到极限就是为了保持觉知。

That's the part of how. And until these days when I teach students, I always emphasize awareness through movement lessons. It's not a movement lesson, it's awareness lesson. Meaning, why do we want to do slower, smaller? We want to do movement not to your extreme limit is because that's how you can be more aware.

这才是我们培养觉知的方式。

That's how we cultivate the awareness.

完全同意。我向初学者或考虑尝试费登奎斯的人介绍时总会说：这真是个有趣的方法，因为根据我和他人的经验，它起初既无聊又令人困惑，直到某天突然变得妙趣横生——这种质变正对应着你提到的转折点。

Totally. Yeah, I mean. And what I always say with with, you know, the comment I make about Feldenkrais to beginners or people who are considering doing it. I say, you know, Feldenkrais is a really is a funny method because in my experience with myself and with others, it's it's it's kind of boring and confusing until suddenly it isn't at all boring. And and to me that that corresponds to this qualitative shift that that that you're referencing.

从客观角度看，你经常在做相当基础枯燥的动作，完全不像运动锻炼——心率不会上升，多数时候甚至没有观赏性。这是它无聊的一面。但那种可能发生的质变，正如你所说，就在于当你意识到这个方法的力量源于对'动作执行方式'的深度觉察时。

And so, I mean, an objective perspective, you know, you're doing oftentimes pretty basic boring movements and it's nothing like exercise. You're not getting your heart rate up. You're not even performing some useful action that's cool to look at most of the time. And so that's sort of the boring side of it. And but the but to me the qualitative shift that can happen is exactly what you mentioned, which is as soon as you recognize that the power of the method is comes from a deep appreciation to how you do what you're doing.

突然之间，全新的好奇领域就会开启——就像你那个例子，开始思考'如何真正更轻松地完成？'或是'怎样避免下颌持续紧张？'又或是'如何让呼吸不出现卡顿？'正是通过不断优化这些细节，我们会突然进入全新的运作模式。莫谢·费登奎斯博士常说的'动觉鉴赏力'这个概念我很喜欢——本质是在问：你当前做事方式是否存在愉悦感？如果没有，就持续探索直到找到。不仅是中立、效率或轻松，而是真正的愉悦感。

Then suddenly this whole new realm of curiosity can emerge as we know when we start just like just like you in that example, how how can I really do this with more ease? Or how can I do this in a way that my that little jaw tension doesn't doesn't keep happening? Or how can I do this in a way that there's not a little hiccup in my breath or something and inside and it's those it's those little things that as we start to iron out or refine the activity, then suddenly there's this new way of Operating and and and I believe you tell me if you agree or not? I think when we do a lesson where we make that shift into into a greater subtlety or what Moshe doctor Feldenkrais always often refers to his kinesthetic appreciation, which is a word I really like. He which is basically he's saying, is there a pleasurable element to how you're doing what you're doing?

根据我的经验，当这种转变发生时会产生整体性改变——如果我能从简单的手指摆动中找到愉悦感的话。

If not, let's figure out why not? You know, keep going until you can find a sense of pleasure. Not just neutrality, not just efficiency, not even just ease, but a sense of pleasurable ness. And and I think that when that shift can happen, In my experience that creates a general shift. If I find pleasure in you know doing Bell hand or something you know moving my fingers like this.

如果到课程结束时，我能在那里找到动觉上的欣赏，那种转变让我发生了质的变化，这种变化会延伸到一切事物上。它延伸到我享用午餐时的感受，延伸到我休息散步时的所见所闻。所以，这种转向‘如何’的转变让我觉得如此迷人。你觉得呢？

If I can find kinesthetic appreciation there by the time the lessons done that shifted me that qualitative shift, it extends to everything. It extends to how I enjoy my lunch that I'm eating. It extends to you know what I see when I go walk around on our break. So it's that shift of into the how that to me is so fascinating. Is What do you think about that?

是的。你提到了‘铃铛手’——为看不到视频的人解释一下，播客听众们，这是个简单的动作。想象你的手，手指像铃铛一样。我也觉得它像某种海洋生物，你只需轻柔地张开手指，展开手掌再合上，或许可以配合呼吸节奏开合。

Yeah. You mentioned bell hand for people who cannot see the video. If you're a podcast listeners, it's a simple thing. Imagine your hand, your fingers is like a bell. I also feel it's like some ocean creature that you just gently open your fingers, open your palm and close it, and maybe synchronize with your breathing and open and close.

有趣的是，我曾和一位学生在线一对一交流，他有很多观点和想法要表达。为了让他回到这种动觉感知，我说：‘你能边做铃铛手边和我说话吗？能在保持对手部随呼吸移动的觉知时交谈吗？’

And it's funny, was talking to one student, we're having a one on one online session, And he has so much opinions and ideas to say. And to kind of bring him back to this kinesthetic sense, was like, can you talk to me while doing the bell hand? Can you talk while having the awareness of your hands moving with your breathing?

然后

And

他突然就停住了。他说：‘这太难了。我的大脑在...哦，在上面。我没办法同时控制手部动作。’

he's he's all all of a sudden just stop talking. I was like, it's hard. I'm oh, there in the brain. Oh, up there. I can't really do it with my hand.

我必须放慢速度，在构思想法时稍微关注呼吸。这几乎是另一种更具体验性的存在方式，通常会更缓慢。

I have to slow down. I have to get a little bit attention to my breathing while forming the idea. So it's almost a different way of being that is more embodied. To me, oftentimes it's slower.

没错。

Right.

我喜欢你提到的愉悦感。现在我教学时，有时会说‘保持在轻松的范围内’，但有时会说‘停留在愉悦的范围内’——当你真正感到快乐时，做这个动作可以面带微笑。我们刚讨论过柔道翻滚，摩西还教过头倒立或手倒立之类的强力技巧，这些都能取得显著效果。

And I like you saying the pleasure. Now when I teach, sometimes I say you stay at the range of ease, but sometimes I say stay in the range of pleasure where you're really feeling happy. You can smile when you're doing this movement. We just talked about judo roles, many other roles Moshe even taught someone like to headstand or handstand or something to show the powerful technique. You can achieve powerful results.

但你也会看到某个学生做着优雅的翻滚，面带微笑，神情轻松柔和。这正是我喜欢看到的——人们享受这种费登奎斯练习。

But also you would see one student, they're doing some very elegant rolling, they're smiling. Their face are light and soft. And that's the thing I like to see and people enjoy doing this Feldenkrais practice.

是啊，我现在同时有两个想法，但只打算跟进其中一个，因为很难同时进行两段对话。其中一个想法是：费登奎斯对我而言是如此有趣的体系，因为观察从中获益的人群，覆盖面非常广。比如音乐家——纽约有位费登奎斯实践者安德鲁·吉本斯，他原本是古典钢琴家，受伤后通过费登奎斯进行康复训练。

Yeah, well, so I've got sort of two thoughts at once, but I'm just going to only follow one of them because it's hard to have two conversations at the same time. But one thought is, know, Feldenkrais to me is such an interesting body of work because when I look at the kinds of people, who have who have learned so much from it, it covers a wide range. It's like it's like, okay, you know, for example, musicians. There's a Feldenkrais practitioner in New York, Andrew Gibbons, whose training was in classical piano. And and and it was after an injury that he found Feldenkrais to try to rehabilitate.

但他坚持下来并非因为疼痛消失，而是因为这彻底改变了他对弹钢琴意义的理解。后来他也成为了一名实践者。你会听到许多艺术家、音乐家、演员、各类运动员的有趣故事，似乎存在这样一种方式——那些具备某种技能、需要完成某种表演性任务的人发现，费登奎斯方法不是简单地增加每日练琴次数，而是退后多步，采用近乎元认知的方式去感知和感受身体。通过在这种元空间（即我们常说的费登奎斯学习环境）中投入时间，无论是钢琴、武术、高尔夫还是日常任务，都能将大量收获反馈到实际活动中。你如何看待这个层面？

But he stayed with it not because of the you know, because his pain went away. He stayed with it because it completely changed his understanding of what it means to play piano. And then later he became a practitioner too. But but you hear so many interesting stories of artists, musicians, actors, athletes of all kinds, that there seems to be, you know, there seems to be this way that people who are, who do have a some skill, some function that's required, you know, some performative task where they find that the Feldenkrais method of not just practicing your piano more times that day, but kind of taking many steps backwards into almost like a meta approach to how you sense and feel your body that that by spending time in that meta space or you know, guess what we often call the learning environment in Feldenkrais that then the transfer into the skill, you know, whether it's piano, martial arts, a golf, everyday tasks, that so much is brought back into that activity. What can you say about about that slice of things?

这是否也是你的体验？那种元学习的层面？你对此有何见解？

Has that been your experience to that that it's it's you know that that meta learning side of it? What's your take on that?

元学习听起来很抽象，我不太理解这个概念，但我喜欢你关于学习环境的说法。对，确实。

Yeah, meta learning sounds very abstract. I don't know how to make sense of that concept, but I like what you say about learning environment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

这对我来说是理解和教授费登奎斯非常关键的组成部分。我们可以这样思考：为什么大多数时候人们缺乏这种觉知来做动作？尤其是初学者，特别是高成就的初学者，当他们进入费登奎斯课堂时，总想着要快速、大幅度、用力地完成动作——这似乎是默认模式。

That's a really, really critical component for me to grasp Feldenkrais and teach Feldenkrais. Is like, we can think this way, why most of the time people don't do movement with this awareness? Why a lot of time when, especially first timers, especially high achiever first timers, when they enter the Feldenkrais class. They're like, I'm going to do this this fast and this big and with this power. Like that's the default mode.

为什么人们喜欢这样做？我认为关键在于区分：我处于学习环境还是生存环境？在生存环境中，一切以表现为基准。没人关心你怎么做或花了多少时间达成，你只需完成。

Why do people like to do that? I think it's lies into this distinction of, am I in a learning environment or am in a survival environment? In a survival environment, it's totally performance based. Nobody cares about how you do it or how long did it take for you to achieve it. You just do it.

若你做到了，就能获得尊重、认可和成就；若做不到，无论原因如何，你就是失败者。因此人们迫切想证明'我能行'，并通过'是否完成'这种外部评价来获取信心。

And if you do it, And you get respect, you get approval, you are achieved. Versus if you don't, then you're a failure. Regardless of the reason. So in that sense, people really want to show I'm capable. And I gain the confidence through this external evaluation of did I do it or not?

而学习环境不同。谁在乎标准或成就？我跑得多快？音乐会上表现多好？这里没有其他评判主体。

Versus the learning environment. Who cares about the standard or achievement? How fast did I run? How well did I play in this concert? Like, there's no other body.

我只关心内在感受：我做这个感觉好吗？享受吗？想继续还是尝试其他方式？

I don't care about them. What I all have is this internal sense of, do I feel good? Do I enjoy doing this? Do I want to keep doing this? Or I want to try something else?

这种自发性对很多人来说难以把握。他们会想：如果没按指示做，我做对了吗？在学习吗？在浪费时间吗？

And it's very spontaneous. And the spontaneity is one difficult thing for many people to grasp. They're like, if I'm not following the instruction, do I do it right? Am I learning? Am wasting my time?

但自发性其实激活了内在感知——我知道做对了，因为我感觉良好、更轻松。我认为不能责怪人们自身，而是社会和教育方式压制了这种自我导向的学习直觉。这其实也是我再次投身神经科学研究的初衷。

But the spontaneity is kind of turn on this internal sensing of I know I'm doing it right because I feel good and I'm feeling better. I'm feeling more ease. And many people, I think, not blame people themselves, but really the society or the way of we do conduct education is we kind of override all this intuition about ourselves, the self directed learning intuition. Well, I can actually go into why I went into neuroscience again. And that was with the idea.

那是在我本科快结束的时候，我学的是物理。一开始，我学习物理的方式和大家一样。我理解这个方程吗？我除法做对了吗？我能解决这个问题吗？

It's towards the end of my undergraduate, I was studying physics. And at the beginning, the way I studied physics was just like everyone else. Do I understand this equation? Do I get the division right? Can I solve this problem?

这相当表面化。但我发现，如果你真正思考为什么所有这些年来，一代代物理学家从事他们的研究并推动学科发展，是因为他们有疑问。他们有一个问题。可以非常简单，比如为什么这个东西导电，金属导电，但石头不导电？为什么？

It's pretty external. But I just find, if you really think about why did all this decades, generations of physicists are doing the research they do and pushing the discipline forward is because they have questions. They had a question. It can be very simple as why is this thing conducting electricity, like metal conduct electricity, but the stone doesn't? Why is that?

这非常基础。但然后你不断问为什么，为什么，为什么，越来越深入。做实验，然后得到这个结果，然后你把它总结为一个方程，一个公式，诸如此类。

It's so basic. But then you go ask why, why, why, go deeper and deeper. Experiment, and then you get this result, and then you summarize it as an equation, a formula, something like that.

但是

But

在教育中，我们没有提出所有这些由好奇心驱动的问题。如果你真的以那种方式学习物理，会愉快得多。也更有趣，因为我不受限于接收、吸收所有这些外部信息，而是每天都在提问，我可以在生活中提出新的问题，或者为什么我不这样做那样做，更有创造力，感受到这种能动性。所以我想，为什么在教育这件事上没有人如此深入地谈论好奇心？我们在大脑中一直忽视的是什么？

in the education, we were not asking all this curiosity driven questions. And if you actually study physics in that way, it's way more pleasurable. It's way more interesting because I'm not bound by receiving, absorbing all this external information, but I'm asking questions every day and I can ask new questions in my life, or why don't I do this and that and be a bit more creative and feel this agency. So I was like, why is nobody talking about curiosity so in-depth in this education thing? And what is it in the brain that we've been ignoring?

我进入神经科学项目时，真的希望能发现好奇心的秘密。那是我最初的动机。

And I really entered the neuroscience program hoping to discover the secret of curiosity. That was my initial motivation.

你在这方面取得了多大进展？不太远。

How far did you get on that? Not very far.

是的。是的。这就是当今学术研究的问题所在，它的方式非常有限，通常非常还原论，至少我们做非常基础的研究时，你必须简化。我不能研究人们关于物理的提问，因为有太多的背景信息、知识、变量。你必须让它超级简单，比如人们关于纸牌游戏的提问，他们简化成这样。

Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing about academic research nowadays is it's very limited in the way that it's usually very reductionist, like at least the way we do the very basic research is you have to simplify. I cannot study people asking questions about physics because there are so many background information, knowledge, variance. You have to make it super simple, like people asking questions about a card game, they simplify it as that.

但通过简化，我觉得很多精华

But through the simplification, I feel a lot of juice has been

失去了问题最初的精神。

Lose some of the original spirit of the question.

是的，是的，是的。这非常非常重要，尤其作为一名初级研究者，我需要在前人研究基础上继续探索。而这个领域仍然如此开放，缺乏足够的理论基础让我真正提出我感兴趣的问题。

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's very, very important, especially as a very junior researcher that I need to build on the previous studies. And just this field is still so open and lacking enough foundations for me to really ask the questions I'm interested in.

所以你从刚才提到的那个严谨但存在局限性的科学范式——当然也有其优势——转向了费登奎斯方法，这完全是关于体验式学习的。这对你有什么帮助？它能让你继续追寻那些问题吗？

So you shifted from a, you know, very rigorous scientific paradigm with some of the limitations you're mentioning here. Strengths certainly, but some limitations. You shifted into Feldenkrais, which is all about experiential learning. What does is this giving you? Does this letting you pursue that?

你关于好奇心以及人类智能或人类如何运作的问题。你是否发现这条路能帮助你探索那些一直以来的疑问？

Your question about curiosity and how how how human intelligence or the human being works. Are you are you are you finding this a path that helps you with some of that that inquiry you've been on?

嗯，好问题。我想现在我对好奇心的理解与以前完全不同了。以前——特别是在初期——更多是认知层面的，比如当你提出'为什么'的问题时，如何构建问题？如何运用语言？主要还是关于思维和想法。

Yeah, good question. I think now I see curiosity in such a different way than before. Like before, I was still mostly, at the beginning, was very cognitive as like, when you ask a why question, how do you formulate the question? How do you use the language? Is, or mostly thinking and ideas.

但就像我们刚才讨论的，即使在动作领域，人们何时会对自己的动作方式产生好奇？调整心态非常重要。他们需要有安全感去探索，需要接受不能立即达成目标，需要不畏惧在他人面前显得笨拙。

But as we just talked about, even in a movement field, when do people become curious about how they do a movement? It's also really important to get the mindset right. They need to feel safe to explore. They need to feel Okay to not achieve something immediately. They need to not feel awkward in front of other people.

现在我真的把好奇心看作是在感到安全和自由时的自然流露。我认为最终需要结合所有这些不同维度：情感成分、具身成分、生物成分，最后才是如何表达和沟通的认知层面。虽然我现在还不知道如何切入这个问题，但我喜欢教授费登奎斯。它能快速获得反馈并与学生互动。你能真切看到学生从最初刻板的'我做得对吗'、机械跟随指令，逐渐开始探索并询问老师：'如果我这样做会怎样？那样做呢？'

And now I really see curiosity as a spontaneous expression when you feel safe and free. I think in the end, you might need to combine all these different dimensions of the emotional component, embodied components, the biological component, and then in the end, the cognitive side of how you express that and communicate that. So I don't know how I would attack the question now, but I like teaching Feldenkrais. It's so quick to get feedback and interact with students. And you can really see a student starting from this very rigid, am I doing it right, following instructions to gradually starting to explore and ask the teacher, what if I do it this way and that way?

哦，我结合前两节课的内容发明了新方法。没错，我们正在掌握它。

Oh, I invented a new thing combining the last two lessons. Yeah, we're getting it.

完全同意。对我来说，这正是让我的工作如此有趣的原因——通过躯体疗法、身体工作、现在的费登奎斯，我日复一日、年复一年地了解他人。而在了解他人的过程中，我也更了解自己。你呢？

Totally, totally. Well, so to me, that's I mean, that's that's what keeps my work so interesting is month by month, year by year with somatic work, body work, SE work now Feldenkrais work. I get to learn about people every day. And in learning about other people, I also learn about myself. What about you?

现在你正处于教学和与人工作的阶段，你学到了什么？当你向他人传授这种方法时，你有什么收获？

What so now that you know, we're in the phase now where we're teaching and we're working with people And and what are you learning? What are what are you what are you learning as you as you as you share this method with others?

让我谈谈我的收获。首先是在接受培训的过程中。现在的我完全判若两人。以前的我非常依赖逻辑思维，常常忽视身体感受。举个简单例子：过去规划日程时，我会列任务清单、分解长期目标、制定待办事项等等。

Well, let me talk about what I learned. First of all, in the context of me receiving the education, like in the training. Sure. I think I'm just a totally different person now. Compared to before, was very cognitive, I think with logic, and I kind of oftentimes ignore the body sensation, feelings, like a simple example would be, how do I spend my day before I'd be like, here are the tasks, here are the long term goals, I break down my schedule and to do list and stuff.

现在我依然强烈感受到这些事情需要完成，这些事情最好去做，但同时也在咨询我的感受。我想不想做这件事？

And now I really still have those sense of these are things that need to be done, these are things that are better to be done, but also consulting my feeling. Do I feel like doing that or not?

是的。

Yeah.

具体来说，比如当我教学生时，需要决定教什么内容。假设是一对一课程，我可以从认知层面思考：学生说过什么？他们想达成什么目标？上节课我观察到了什么？

And to the point of, like, if I teach a student, I need to decide what lesson do I teach. Let's say a one on one lesson. I can think it very cognitively is like, what did the students say? What do they want to achieve? What did I see in the last lesson?

我能在此基础上构建什么？然后制定教案。这是一种方式。但有时我对这个思考过程感到不踏实，缺乏自信和流畅感。

What can I build on it? And build a lesson plan. Like, that's one way of doing it. But sometimes I feel I don't feel solid about that process, that thinking process. I don't feel very confident and fluid to do that.

于是我问自己为何有这种感觉？可能是因为理论上这个课程能帮助学生，但实际教学中我自己并未感受到明显变化，没有形成清晰的新联结，这让我犹豫。而有些课程我自己实践时就感受到良好变化，能清晰地向学生传达，也更有信心实施。

Then I ask myself, why do I feel that way? It's probably because the lesson I was thinking, theoretically, it can help the student. But in bodily, I myself didn't feel a big change during that lesson, where I didn't really feel a new clear connection. So that made me hesitant, versus some other classes I did it myself. I feel really good change, a big difference, and I can articulate, I can pretty well communicate that to my student, and I feel confident to do that.

所以当我决定做不做某件事时，一切都变得更具身体感知性。这种与身体的脱节现象，或者我刚才谈到的状态，对你来说是否完全正常？毕竟你从事身体工作这么久？

So just everything become a lot more embodied when I make a decision of, do I do this or not? Was that being too disconnected from the body or what I talked about, is that something totally normal to you since you've been doing in this body work for so long?

请重复下问题。我想确认自己理解正确。

Well, repeat the question. I want to make Let me make sure I understand.

好。我想知道，从这种高度用脑的认知生活方式转向更注重身体感知的决策过程——不只是我这样吧？像你这样长期从事身心领域的人，这种转变是否早已深植生活？

Yeah. So so I wonder, I come from this very brainy cognitive way of living into this more embodied decision making? Is that something not just me. Or like for you, you've been in this somatic field for so long, had that been incorporated in your life deeply already?

是的。你说的这种转变，我经历过自己的版本——不同的版本。我见证过这种转变。让我试着从自身经验补充些看法。

Yes. I mean, that shift you're talking about. I mean, I I had my own version of it, a different version. And and I see and I see that shift. So let me let me see if I can add any any from my own experience.

可以这样理解：你提到以前用认知和逻辑框架规划日程、做决定。比如为个人定制教案时，认知框架完全合理。但你用了很妙的说法——现在你会'咨询感受'。这很有趣，'感受'究竟是什么？

You know, one way to look at it is, I mean, I like what you say it's like, know, there's previously there's sort of a cognitive and a logical framework for making planning your day, making decisions. If you're going to make a lesson plan for an individual, you know, there's there's sort of the cognitive framework makes total sense. But they used a phrase I really like, which is the now you, you've you consult with your feelings. Well, that's such an interesting thing. Well, what is what is feelings?

一方面，你看，这确实关乎你的情绪状态，对吧？它涉及能量水平、心情波动，但究竟是什么在影响这些感受呢？是睡眠质量、今日天气，

And, you know, on the one hand, it's, you know, yeah, it's your mood, right? So it's, it's energy levels. It's the mood it's, but what's informing those feelings? It's, you know, it's how much sleep you got. It's it's the it's the weather today.

也可能是你早先与他人的对话。因此从本质上说，这是一种瞬息万变的状态。所以我们无法精确预判感受状态，它甚至不遵循某种简化的逻辑框架。

It's it's what conversation you had with somebody earlier. So it's such a it's such a more changing thing by by definition. And so so so feeling state is not something that we can exactly anticipate. Or it doesn't it doesn't even follow. It doesn't follow sort of a simplified, you know, logical framework.

它更像是从日常情境和复杂变量中自然涌现的。一方面存在个人感受状态——用专业术语说是'具身认知'的产物；另一方面在客户工作中，我们可能预设'上次他们学会了A，这次应该能学B'，

It's more of just what's arising out of the circumstances of a day and all the complex variables. And on the one hand, there's one zone feeling state. Okay, what what's arising in my own embodied cognition to use that word. But then also, know, when we were do our client work, right? So it's like, let's say we want last time they learned this.

这种线性逻辑偶尔成立。但若我们处于感受模式，就能同步感知客户或学生的状态：他们此刻的生命力如何？神经系统处于什么状态？

So this time they might be able to learn this. Well, that's sort of a logical step. Makes sense at one level and once in a while that logical sequence does make sense to follow. But if but if we're in a feeling mode, for ourselves, then we can also be in a feeling mode relative to our client or student and it's and it's what's alive for them today? What's the state of their nervous system?

他们的好奇心处于什么水平？注意力指向何方？是对当前问题感兴趣，还是心思游离？若是后者，这对我们今日时间的优化利用意味着什么？

What's, what's what are they? What's the level of their own curiosity? How is that directed? Are they curious about this problem at hand or they or is their attention tied up somewhere else? If so, what does that mean for the best use of our of our of our time here today?

我不确定这些观点是否有用，但对我而言这更像归纳法——必须基于当下实相来制定应对方案，而非执行预设议程。

So I don't know. I don't know if what I just said adds anything useful except to me there's just this. There's this it's it's a there's something that's it's more of an inductive approach. It's like you have to take account to what's true in the moment and and and then formulate a plan or an action that's in response to that rather than a predetermined, kind of an agenda, so to speak.

让我消化一下。你的话我能部分共鸣，但确实很抽象。不过费登奎斯疗法确实教会我接纳瞬息万变，容忍不确定性——通常面对未来时，计划能缓解焦虑，让我因'知道如何应对'而自信，

Let let me sit with this thoughts for a moment. I feel what you said, can kind of relate, but it's also very abstract. I think one thing is clear that doing Feldenkrais really taught me to allow this moment by moment change, allow this uncertainty, because usually when we're facing something in the future, planning is a good way to reduce the anxiety. I feel like I have some action plan I know what to deal with. Seems like I can be more confident with that.

但随着教学深入，我发现真正的自信源于这种逐渐提升的感知力：能敏锐觉察学生状态，并根据当下所见提供帮助。有时体现在动作上——我能清晰识别不流畅处并指导调整；有时则是感知学生是否专注，

But gradually, with more and more teaching Feldenkrais, I do feel the confidence actually come from this developed ability that I can sense, this developed awareness of I can feel where the student is and how I can provide help, given what I see right now at this moment. And it's not sometimes it's about movement. I can see more clearly, oh, there's something not so fluid in this movement. I can have the sharp eye to see that, then I can help the student to adjust. Sometimes it's this openness to sense, is the student paying attention?

是否疲惫困倦。有次教眼部练习时，学生低头说'我感到悲伤'。这不在教案预期内，但我感知到她的迟疑和延长休息的需求，于是询问：

Is the student feeling tired and sleepy? And one time their student like doing some eye lesson and the eye looked down and she's like, I feel sad about it. I told her, not in the plan, wouldn't have expected that, but it's just, I could feel she's some hesitance there doing that movement. She took longer time to rest. So I asked, What's going on?

你感觉如何？

How do you feel?

然后

And then

她这样告诉我。所以这对我来说完全是另一回事。

she told me that. So it's really a totally different for me.

是啊。

Yeah.

我该如何面对这个世界，以及

How do I approach the world and In

就你刚才举的例子，当她的目光转向时，感到悲伤的是你还是她，还是你们两个都感到悲伤？

that example you just gave, when when her eyes were directed, was it you that felt sad or was it she that felt sad or both?

不，是她感到悲伤。我能看到的只是她的动作慢慢停了下来，她休息了更长时间。呼吸也不像之前那样放松了。于是我问，你感觉怎么样？

No, she felt sad. So what I could see was just her movement kind of stopped very slowly, and she took a much, much longer rest. The breathing was not as relaxed as before. Right. And so I asked, how do you feel?

要不我们休息一下？如果你想多休息一会儿的话。然后她确实休息了更久，从地上站起来，走了一会儿，告诉我她的感受。

What about we take a break? Yeah. If you want to take a longer break. Right. And she took a longer break and stand up from the ground, walk around a little bit and told me how she felt.

对。

Right.

就是这样。

That's it.

是啊，我是说，你看，对我来说这就是个例子，说明我们在很多领域——比如育儿心理学——都会用到的一个概念，就是调谐（attunement）。调谐指的是当两个人处于某种关系中时，一方能敏锐感知另一方的情感变化。对比之下，如果我是个健身教练，我的工作可能就是机械地说‘好，我们接下来做这个动作，重复多少次’，几乎不管学员状态如何，除非他们实在做不到。

Yeah, well, mean, so that you know, so to me, that's an example of where, you know, a concept that we use in in lots of things. Mean, parenting psychology, so but the concept of attunement, right? And attunement is is the is that is that when there's two people in relationship that that that that that one can be quite sensitive to what's arising for the other person. And you know, the contrast would be so if I was a, I don't know if I was a fitness instructor, then my job is to sort of like, okay, we're going to do this, we're going to do this number of repetitions. And it's almost like we're going to do this thing almost no matter what, unless you know, you can't do it.

这算是一种态度。但另一种态度则更为即时觉察——在我指导课程时，时刻关注着学员肌肉张力、肢体语言及个人感知体验的所有细微变化。作为费登奎斯从业者或任何类型的实践者，我们能变得非常敏锐，对有机体那些微妙变化极其敏感。正因为费登奎斯方法，我们拥有调整节奏、提出问题或延长时间的灵活性。

So that's sort of one attitude. But but but another attitude is one that's that's much more aware in a moment by moment basis of as you're performing this lesson that I'm instructing. Watching for all the subtle shifts in in in muscle tone, in body language, in sort of the felt sense of the individual. We as Feldenkrais practitioners or any kind of practitioner, we can become very attuned, very attuned, sensitive to the the nuanced changes of the of the organism. And and because of the Feldenkrais method, we have the freedom to adjust, ask a question, spend more time.

因此我们能灵活顺应当下呈现的节奏，而非固守某种既定流程。

So we have the flexibility to sort of ride the rhythms that present, in the moment, rather than just trying to adhere to some sort of a fixed routine or something like that.

确实如此。这种方法本质关乎觉察与学习，旨在创造让学员自发探索的学习环境。他们是否达成目标、我是否教完今天准备的内容根本不重要。很多时候我可能只教半节课但放慢节奏。正如之前所说，观察课程有多个维度。

Yeah, yeah, it's very true. Like this method itself, it's about awareness, it's about learning, it's about creating this learning environment so the student can have this spontaneous learning exploration. So it's really, really not important at all for them to achieve something for me to teach all the things I prepared today and dah, dah, dah, dah. A lot of times I might just teach half of the lesson, but do it much slower. And as I said before, there are different dimensions to view a lesson.

可能是个超级简单的动作，但我将所有注意力引向动作的起始方式。我们不断聚焦这个初始阶段，学习如何启动动作——这本身就能成为完整课程。

It could be something super simple, but I'm directing all the attention to how you start a movement. And then we zoom in and zoom in in this very initial starting and learn how to start a movement. That could be a lesson itself.

没错。

Right.

只要学员保持专注，我完全不会因精简内容感到愧疚。如果他们状态不佳——这也是我每节课开始时会强调的：需要休息就充分休息，不必遵循我的指令。当身体发出拒绝信号时，我的指导毫无意义。

So I really don't feel guilty of cutting anything short as long as the student is with me. Right. Or if they're not. And that's another thing is like, at the beginning of every lesson, would say like, if you need rest, rest as much as you need, don't follow my instruction. My instruction means nothing if your body releases no.

对，正是。

Right, right.

经常有学员说：老师，虽然约了课但我真的没状态。首先我很高兴他们能坦诚相告，因为很多人会觉得'我要当好学生'，要'保持尊重'完成约定事项等等——这些正是日常面对的外部要求。但在这里至少需要沟通真实感受...

And to the point, a lot of times the students are like, teacher, I know I scheduled the lesson today, but I really don't feel like it. Then, first of all, I'm glad my students are saying that to me because a lot of time they say, I need to be a good student. I need to be quote unquote, respectful and do the thing that we agreed to do, blah, blah, blah. That's how a lot of the external requirements that we face daily. But like here, at least you need to communicate that with me of saying, I don't feel like

确实。

it. Right.

然后我们可以探索：除了放弃课程，是否还有其他选择？

And then we can explore besides just giving up. Are there any other option we can do?

是的。

Yep.

我们还有其他方式可以融入一些学习元素吗

Is there any other way we can to have some learning touch

准时参与？就是参与进来。对。

on time? Just or engage. Yep.

是啊。没错。

Yeah. Yeah.

对。我喜欢这个说法。你曾跟我提过，莫谢——你知道我总是直呼其名，不知道为什么我该称他博士。

Yeah. I like that. I like that. You shared with me at one point that that so Moshe you know I am always calling by his first name. I don't know why I should call him Doctor.

费登奎斯。我确定我不清楚。我没有...我其实和他并不熟到可以直呼其名的程度，但就是习惯了。

Feldenkrais. I'm sure I don't know. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not really on a first name basis with him, but I don't know.

总之他写过——你知道的，他出版了好几本优秀的书。首先我真的很喜欢他的文风，他是个非常有趣的作家，这本身就很难得。

It's my habit. Anyway, but he has written a you know, he's got a he's got a number of excellent books. And I first of all, I really like him as a writer. He's a really interesting writer. So that's its own thing.

但你提到他有本案例研究的书叫《诺拉的案例》，你说这是你一直在寻找的有实用价值的行为神经科学著作。能详细说说吗？这本书给你留下了什么印象？

But but you mentioned that so he has one book. It's a case study and it's called the case of Nora. And you mentioned to me that that felt like that you said it was the useful behavioral neuroscience that you'd been searching for. I wonder if you could elaborate on that a little bit. What what impression did that have on you?

首先，我不认为莫谢的书容易读懂。他的大部分作品我读着读着就睡着了，跟不上思路。内容常常过于抽象，每句话背后都浓缩了十年经验，所以通常不建议初学者直接啃他的书。

Yeah. First of all, I don't see Moshe as a writer that is accessible at all. Like most of his book, I just read and fall asleep, I can't follow. Again, it's too oftentimes very abstract, like so dense that there's ten years of experience behind every sentence. So I usually don't recommend beginners to just dive into the book.

可能会在概念里迷失。但《诺拉的故事》这本很容易消化，他记录了这个老年女性的案例——她是个高知分子，通晓多国语言，却丧失了读写能力（至少她家人最初是这么认为的）。他们来找运动专家莫谢·费登奎斯，结果第一次课程后，通过些简单的头部转动练习，她就能写字并读出来了。

You might lost in the concepts. But this story of Nora is a really easily digestible book, where he was just presented with this case of this old woman, very intellectual, multilingual, where she lost the ability to read and write, or at least that's what her family thought at the beginning was the problem. Like reading and writing, but they're going to Moshe Feldenkrais, this movement guy. And they did find just after the first lesson, she did some gentle movement of turning the head and stuff. Then she was able to write something and read it out.

他们当时的反应是，这到底怎么回事？这方法太有效了。然后他们真的派她每天去和他一起做康复训练。

And they're like, what the heck? This is so effective. And then they send her to really actually do the work with him every day.

所以，

So,

摩西讲述这个故事和他的思考过程真的很有价值。行为神经科学的实用之处在于，比如他知道我们大脑处理文字、字母和数字的区域是不同的。大多数人认为读写是一回事，但实际上读写数字比读写字母容易得多。所以他先从数字开始，让这位患者尝试，结果她成功了。

and it's really good that Moshe was telling the story and his thinking process. So the part of useful behavioral neuroscience is, for example, he knew that we use different brain regions to process words, letters, versus numbers. So most people would think read and write is just the same thing, but it's actually much easier to read and write numbers than the letters. So he started with numbers and asked this patient to try that. And she succeeded.

大家都很高兴。患者很开心，取得了进步。而他想的是：好，现在我就停在这里，不会强迫她继续练习写字什么的。

Everyone's happy. She's happy. Achieved. And he's like, okay, now I'm gonna stop here. I'm not gonna push more to ask her to write the words and stuff.

因为那涉及更多语言处理功能。是啊，我当时就想：啊，教科书上学过这个，没想到能这样用来帮助患者，真有意思。

So that's more language processing. Yeah. I'm like, ah, I learned that in the textbook. I didn't know it's useful in this case to help a patient. And it's really interesting.

我重读这本书时，突然理解了很多内容。之前我总觉得自己学了五年神经科学都白费了，现在教学根本用不上，整天就搞这些运动训练，关注身体感受。但看到摩西处理这个复杂病例时——后来发现她连穿鞋时的空间定位都有问题——

I just reread this book again, and now so many more things click with me. Before, I was kind of like, I spent five years studying neuroscience, now it's out of window. I don't use that anymore in my teaching. I'm just doing this movement thing and be happy with my bodily sensation. But then I saw when Moshe was faced with such a complicated case that he later discovered she was also having problem with just spatial orientation, how to put on shoes.

其他人都没意识到这是个问题，毕竟患者生病了，大家帮她穿鞋很正常对吧？但这里隐藏着更深层的问题。于是他的思考过程是：这里涉及什么神经连接？空间感知需要哪些条件？

And nobody else realized that was an issue because everyone just helped her to put on her shoes because she's sick. She's a patient, right? But here, there's a lot more issues with that. And then his thought process was to think, what is this neural connection there? What is required to have this sense of spatial awareness?

以及如何调整环境来适应要做的动作？就像他说的，他在脑海中可视化所有相关脑区，看它们如何连接，信息如何流动——他用的是'流体'这个词，不过从现代视角看其实就是信息流。

And how do I adjust my environment to fit into what I'm going to do? Like he said, he's visualizing all the spring regions, how they connect and how the flow of information. He was using the word flow of fluid, fluid, but it's really, I think it's a flow of information from the more modern perspective.

对，对。

Yep. Yep.

没错。他想象这个过程，找出卡顿点在哪里，哪些通路是顺畅的。所以我现在觉得，以前学的东西说不定哪天在费登奎斯疗法实践中就能用上。

Yeah. Like he's imagining this process and where does it get stuck? Where is good as a highway? Yes. So I was like, maybe what I learned before could be useful one day in my future Feldenkrais practice.

因为目前，我的学生们仍是非常、非常功能健全的优秀人士。他们并未面临严重的神经学问题，即便有人遇到，也已妥善应对。但当你深入这一领域并面对更具挑战性的情况时，我认为对大脑的整体理解——现代神经科学的认知——将变得极其重要。

Because right now, of the time, my students are still very, very functional, good functional people. They don't face some severe neurological situation or someone face that, but got it pretty well nailed down. But when you're going deeper into this field and facing more challenging situations, I think that overall understanding, the modern understanding of the brain would be really

非常有帮助。那么，让我们暂且以科学家的视角谈谈摩西——因为在我看来，他某些方面是超前的。比如他对学习原理的领悟，或是将理论转化为可体验的实践，我认为这是他天才特质的体现。当我们将这种方法视为具有神经生理学基础时，要知道这并非随机行为——我们并非用魔法创造改变。

helpful. Well, so let's talk about Moshe sort of as a scientist for a second because well, know, because he was, what's in your view? What are some of the things you know, I guess in my view he was he was ahead of his time on certain understanding certain, you know, sort of learning principles or or he took he took theories and he made it he made it experiential and practical. Was to me one of his his his areas of genius. But when you sort of think of this method as as having a having a neuro physiological underpinning to it, you know that this isn't a random, you know, we don't use magic to create the change.

他运用了当时尚未完全证实的神经生理学原则，某种程度上是在假设其运作机制。你能否谈谈如何看待他的理论体系——那些支撑整个方法的基础原理？

There are, know, he was he was sort of he was using neurophysiological principles, some of which hadn't been proven yet, but he was sort of assuming that this may be how it works. Can you speak to that at all? Sort of how you see his theoretical body, his his the underpinning informing the method itself?

我们能发现许多操作方法与神经学解释之间的对应关系。不确定他的研究路径——是从理论到实践，还是双向推进？比如关键问题：为何采用微小轻柔的动作？在功能整合的手触疗法中，为何施以如此温和的接触？

We can see a lot of correspondence of why we do something and how to explain that neurologically. I don't know if that's how he did it. Like, did he start from the theory, then go into the practice or the other way or both ways? Like one important thing is why do we use small, soft movements? Or when you're doing Fi functional integration, the hands on work, why do we use such gentle touch?

当你降低刺激强度时，对当下状态的觉察敏感度反而会提升——这是著名的韦伯-费希纳定律。但传统学校教育中，我们研究的是如何设计实验证明该定律，探讨其精确数学表达式，却鲜少应用于实际。即便现在，我认为理论与实践间仍存在巨大鸿沟。

It's when you are lowering the intensity than the awareness, the sensitivity of what's going on, what can I feel has improved? So that's a famous law. But usually, it's in the way we learn it in school. This is called psychophysics. We're studying how do we conduct an experiment to prove this law?

以摩西提到的诺拉案例为例：他尝试通过轻柔引导头部连接脊柱，帮助这位女士从坐姿站起。正常发育的神经系统应产生反射协调全身，但她当时只会僵硬地不知所措。摩西并未采取复杂干预，仅是不断降低接触强度，经过几次重复后她成功了——这远超出简单的强度-敏感度定律。

What's the exact form of this law? But it was hardly used in application. And even nowadays, I think there's still a lot of gap there, or I could be ignorant. But for example, Moshe was talking about let's come back to the case of Nora. And he was saying, he tried to help this woman from sitting to stand up by gently lead her head and kind of pull her head, and that will connect to the spine.

这涉及两人间怎样的互动机制？全身反应如何被重塑？就像马戏团机关咔嗒作响，神经连接突然贯通——灯泡瞬间点亮。为何如此？

And usually, with a well developed brain, nervous system, there should be a reflex so the whole body knows how to respond to this. But for her, she's just stiff and didn't know what to do when she was receiving this gentle touch from Moshe. Now, what Moshe did was not doing a lot of weird other things to change her, but just make his touch softer, make the intensity lower of this interaction. And then after a few repetitions, she was able to do that. So there's a lot more than the simple law of intensity and sensitivity.

若仅以还原论方式研究心理物理学，很难理解这种通过轻柔接触重建全身有机反应的过程。我认为这仍是未来研究的广阔领域。

Like, what is this interaction going on between these two people? And how does the whole body's response change? Like, it's almost like a circus just click, click, click, and the connections were there. And suddenly, the light bulb is on. Why did that happen?

比如诺曼·道伊奇的著作《大脑如何改变自己》（或《大脑如何自愈》，书名记忆模糊），这位研究神经可塑性的医学博士就在书中肯定了摩西·费登奎斯的贡献。

I think with a very reductionist way of studying psychophysics, it's hard to understand that whole body's organic response being restored through this gentle touch. So I think there's still a lot of open field for future research.

是的。在诺曼·道伊奇那本关于大脑自我修复的著作中（书名记不确切），他特别认可摩西的成就。道伊奇作为专注神经可塑性的医学研究者，我认为书名应该是《大脑如何自愈》。

Yeah. Well, know, like in Norman Deutch's book, know the way the brain changes itself or the way the brain heals itself. I can't remember exactly the title. And he kind of credits Moshe Feldman, know, Norman Deutch, I think is a is a medical doctor and researcher and his in his big area of interest is around neuroplasticity and that book, the way the brain changes itself or the way. No, I think it's the way it heals itself.

这本书的核心主题是关于通过神经可塑性变化实现康复的实例。他将摩谢·费登奎斯誉为某种先驱，仿佛摩谢在那个时代的科学范式尚未充分认识到大脑可塑性或神经可塑性程度时，就已坚信神经系统的改变是可能的。因此，用现在的话说，摩谢体现的是一种成长型思维模式，而非固定型思维。你听说过这个说法吗？

Is about examples of healing via neuroplastic change. That's the basic theme of the book. And he credits Moshe Feldenkrais as being sort of a pioneer, where it's as though Moshe had the conviction that neurological change was possible even before the scientific paradigm of the time recognized the degree of sort of malleability or neuroplasticity to the brain. So so so therefore, Moshe was was, you know, sometimes we use the phrase phrase these days having a growth mindset for it versus a fixed mindset. Do you know that expression?

没错。在我看来，摩谢简直是将成长型思维践行到极致——那种认为任何限制都可突破的理念。比如有人会说'我患了脑瘫，所以髋关节无法这样活动'，或是'中风后语言中枢受损'，但他的世界观是：不不不。

Yeah. Yeah. So so to me, it's like Moshe really embodies the growth mindset to like to the extreme is sort of the idea that like any limitation. Okay, I have cerebral palsy, so I can't I can't move my hip this particular way or you know, had a stroke and now I you know that disrupted my you know, speech center or whatever. It's like it's like his worldview was like, No, no, no.

根本不存在限制。永远存在探索的可能性。他必定深深相信人类进化改变的潜力——这不是相信奇迹，而是认识到我们对可能性的常识性认知极其有限。我认为他始终秉持这样的理念：任何人类有机体与生俱来的可能性，都远超我们预期。这种原则已深深融入他的生命。

There's no limitation. There's there's always the possibility of investigation. And he must have believed very deeply that that the that the human possibility for evolution change, you know, I don't think he believed it's not about believing in miracles, but it's believing about the that our common sense view of what's possible and not is pretty limited. And I think he was a person who carried this idea that in fact, the the possibility intrinsic with any any human organism is much, much, much, much greater than we expect. So somehow he really carried this principle within him.

你看，我认为这不是源于实验的抽象信念，而是他数千次实践积累的实证经验。即便这样他依然谦逊，比如面对诺拉的严重病情时，他会说'我不确定'。

See, and I think it's not a belief that something abstract derived from experiment. It's just really, really empirical that he has done this thousands of times. And I like he's just still humble. He's like, Nora is in this severe situation. I'm not sure.

你们作为家属也不该期待我是创造奇迹的救世主。我无法承诺任何结果，但我们可以试试。

And you guys as family members shouldn't expect me to be this miracle delivery guy. And I cannot promise anything, but we'll see.

确实。

Right.

但他又极具创造力，能整合不同领域的资源尝试各种方法，设计新颖的训练动作。我常想：究竟什么样的人会每天躺在地板上研发上千种课程？他的生活就是日复一日地在地板上翻滚探索吗？这种创新精神正是乐观信念的根基。

And then he's so resourceful to pull resources from these different fields and try different things and being inventive on how to design new exercises. I was thinking like, who the hell decided to lay on the floor every day and figure out all the thousands of lessons. Like, what's your life like? Have you been just rolling on the floor daily basis? It's very inventive, and that's why you can have this optimistic belief.

当你清楚自身优势时，就明白其中蕴含的潜能。

As you know your strengths, you know your potency there.

完全同意。说到我对费登奎斯方法的兴趣点，真正吸引我的正是这种'学习'而非'修复'的范式。我在接触费登奎斯之前，已经积累了相当丰富的结构整合疗法经验。

Totally. Well, so so just to speak, I guess a little bit to my, you know, one aspect of my own interest in in Feldenkrais was. Was that that's what really hooked hooked me in was this concept of. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's the learning learning versus a fixing paradigm or this and that sometimes is the way we phrase it. But you know, when I think about, you know, so my I started Feldenkrais after I felt that I was pretty experienced with with structural integration.

结构整合是艾达·罗夫的理论，他们二人是朋友，认为彼此工作存在交集——都致力于提升人体机能。但实现方式迥异：艾达的风格更偏向机械范式，着重理解筋膜肌肉组织的力学特性，虽然也关联神经学，但整体是偏机械性的治疗路径。

And so structural integration is Ida Rolf's work and it's in and they were friends and they felt that there was some Venn diagram. There was some overlap of what they were trying to do, which was to improve human functioning. But they had pretty different ways of achieving those results and and Ida's style was to mechanically. It was a more is a mechanical paradigm understanding that the the fascia and the muscle tissue. Course it connects to the neurology in the brain, but but but there was a bit of a mechanical approach.

我们如何延长组织、构建结构、使各部分在力学上更好地相互关联，然后由此产生的结果将是——通过物理层面重组部件，整体功能将得到提升。按照艾达·罗尔夫的理论框架，不仅在身体层面，心理乃至精神层面的功能都会因这种调整而改善。而摩西的观点则截然不同，他同样追求提升人体功能，但重点不在于‘嘿，我们需要拉长这个’之类。

How do we lengthen tissues, organize the structure, get things to interrelate mechanically better and then the result coming from that will be you know that the whole will be improved by reorganizing the parts at a physical level. There will be an improvement of function at the physical but also psychological even spiritual level from the from the struck from the Ida Rolf's sort of framework. And in Moshe's view was so much so much different. He wanted improved human functioning as well. But it wasn't about you know, hey, we need to lengthen this.

我们不需要机械地为你拉长这块肌肉或那个部位。尽管通过结构整合工作，我对其中涉及的神经学层面产生了深刻理解，但本质上仍存在某种力学偏向——我们毕竟是在物理层面操作组织。结构整合可以说是力学范式的一个例子。

We need to length mechanically lengthen this muscle for you, or this and that. And and so even though I through my structural integration work, I think I developed a big appreciation for the neurological slice of what's happening. Still, nevertheless, there's this sort of a mechanical bias where you know we you know we're physically manipulating the tissues. And the other example of a mechanical paradigm. So structural integration could be a little bit of a mechanical paradigm.

想想如今的运动疗法或物理治疗，大多都带有力学性质。比如‘要改善肩部功能，就需要强化这块肌肉、拉伸那块肌肉’之类的思路。这本质上仍是试图通过机械手段来优化人体生物机能。

But you know, I think about like, you know, the approach to exercise these days is often or physical therapy. Most physical therapy is kind of mechanical in nature. It's like, we need to fix this function of your shoulder. If we strengthen this muscle and we lengthen this muscle and we this, then the function will be better. Again, it's sort of a mechanical approach to improving the human biology.

这些方法当然有其价值，在特定范围内确实有效。但费登奎斯方法的独特之处在于：我们并非要直接改变系统力学结构（虽然这可能间接发生），而是要在学习层面引发改变——这种学习功能源自中枢神经系统，并与躯体神经系统乃至整个身体相关联。我有时会用计算机来类比这个原理——

You know, all those things have their place. They work within within certain limits. But where Feldenkrais comes in is is a no, we're not going to make a mechanical change in the system that might happen. But where we're going to do is we're going to create a we're going to create a change at the on the learning side and the learning side is a is a function of our central nervous system and as and as it relates to the somatic nervous system or the body as a whole. And and and and so to me it's a little bit like the analogy I would maybe sometimes use is kind of like a computer analogy.

我们修复的是硬件还是软件？罗夫治疗有点像修硬件，通过改变硬件来影响软件。但费登奎斯方法会说：不，我们要专注软件本身。‘现在感觉如何？’

Are we fixing the hardware or the software? And and you know, Rolfing is a little bit it's like fixing the hardware and then change it. And then the changing the hardware affects the software. But but but where Feldenkrais comes in, no, no, no, let's pay attention to the software. Well, how does this feel?

发生了什么？如果你放慢动作，以更轻松的方式做会怎样？现在回头看你最初关注的问题，那里有什么变化？是否出现了新的可能性？好，既然已经整合了这点，现在让我们观察骨盆并进行细节调整。

What's happening? If you do this and you slow it down, if you do it with more ease now what happens now go back to look at the first thing you were looking at. What's happening there now? Is there any more possibility than before? Okay, now, now that we've incorporated that now let's look at the pelvis and do some detailed work there.

现在将其与呼吸联系起来。然后再回头看最初那个转头的问题——此刻你的体验是什么？现在发生了什么变化？

Now let's now let's connect that to the breath. Okay, now let's go back and look at that first problem again, turning your head. How what's your what's the experience? What's happening now? What's happening now?

正是这种神经学切入点或者说学习层面的干预让我深深着迷。这也是我感觉获益最多的地方。虽然我仍会进行力学导向的工作，但现在是以组合方式推进——就像硬币的两面，单方面操作是不够的。如何引导对方进入这种可感知、可复现甚至能自主深化的体验，正是我持续探索的方向。

So and and and so it's that it's that, neurological entry point or the the the the learning side that to me was so captivating. And that's that's where I feel like I've gotten so much value is and I still do mechanically oriented work, but now it's it's in combination. I see it as as two sides of a coin that just doing it for them isn't enough. How do I also bring them into that experience where they can grasp it and even repeat it and even and even deepen it independently is sort of more of the direction that that I'm continuing to go.

这个软硬件计算机类比太有意思了！这完全契合我从计算认知神经科学出发的思维范式——人脑运行着什么算法？他们如何思考？

It's so interesting. This a software hardware computer analogy? That was like my whole thinking paradigm from computational cognitive neuroscience. It's like, what's the algorithm in humans brain? And how do they think?

这与人工智能算法有何异同？但有时我在想：我们问的是同一个问题吗？因为将‘学习解决问题’视为过程是一种思维方式，实践中这也是许多人寻求这种学习体验的原因。但摩西的话很触动我——他说费登奎斯学习不在于身体柔韧度，‘我不在乎柔软的身体，我在乎的是灵活的心智’。

How does that compare to artificial intelligence algorithm? But sometimes I'm thinking like, are we asking the same question? Because if we see the whole process of learning to fix a problem, that's one way of thinking. And practically, that's why many people find us to receive this learning experience. But it's very touching that Moshe was saying, learning Feldenkrais is not about being flexible or I don't care about flexible body, I care about flexible mind.

我想恢复人的尊严。那么什么真正构成了这种尊严？我认为一个非常重要的部分是重获这种自发性——我有权选择自己的行为，并能尊重这种选择。同时，我拥有学习的方式、探索的途径，而觉察力正是训练中让你能够为自己发现方法的重要部分。

I want to restore human dignity. So what really constitutes this human dignity? I think one really big part is to regain this spontaneity of I have the choice to decide what I do and I can respect that. And also I have ways to learn. I have ways to discover and awareness a big part of the training for you to be able to discover ways for yourself.

因此你不仅解决问题，更能创造新的可能性，实现那些你曾认为无法达成的事。当这样思考时，学习能力就成为人的必备素质。人们不能永远依赖寻找最好的治疗师来解决所有问题，否则仍无法获得自主权。

So not only you fix problems, but also build new possibilities, achieve things that you didn't thought you could before, you didn't think you could have achieved before. So when you think that way, this learning component is a must for a person. They cannot be always relying on finding the best therapist to fix every problem they have. Then you're still not gaining that agency.

对，完全正确。是的。没错。

Right. That's absolutely correct. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

但与此同时，我并非说费登奎斯方法强大到人人都必须或应该实践。我们讨论过要营造让人感到轻松自在的学习环境来探索。但如果有人正承受剧烈身体疼痛，可能需要先控制疼痛，才能进入探索状态。从这个角度看，或许某些结构性整合会有所帮助。是的。

But then on the same time, I'm not saying felon crisis is so powerful that everybody can definitely or should definitely do it. We've talked about to have this learning environment where you feel the ease and relaxation to explore. But what if somebody is already in such big physical pain that they might first need to have that pain under control a little bit, then they can enter this explorative state. And in that sense, maybe some structural integration would be helpful. Yeah.

还有许多其他方面我仍在学习中。

And many other things I'm still learning.

太好了。不知能否聊聊你近期的教学？通过红胡子机构授课让我很兴奋——你既做一对一指导，又开展双周课程。听众们绝对应该关注这个双周课程。你最近还将该方法引入攀岩领域...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wonderful. Well, I wonder if we could switch to a little bit about your teaching these days because you know, you're teaching through Red Beard, which is which I'm so excited to have you doing both one on one work and then the every other week class that you're doing. So listeners, you should definitely tune in to to the biweekly class. But you've been working with rock climbers bringing the method in.

能否以攀岩者为例，简单谈谈你当前的教学情况？

Just tell me a little bit about maybe that you could use the rock climbers as an example, but tell me a little bit about your teaching these days.

有趣的是，对费登奎斯教师而言，不仅要确保学生快乐，自己也要快乐；不仅要让学生放松，自己先要放松。这决定了我选择教学内容的准则——必须教授能让自己快乐的内容。

Yeah. It's interesting for Feldenkrais teachers, one requirement is you're not just making sure your students are happy, you need to be happy. Not only make sure students are relaxed, you need to be relaxed first. So that's kind of a theme behind when I decide what do I want to teach. I need to teach something that makes me happy.

比如我喜欢攀岩，发现运用费登奎斯方法确实提升了我的攀爬能力，所以就想专门教授这个方向试试看。这其实也是范式的转变——过去我认为学习费登奎斯就是按部就班地做练习、跟脚本、完成序列...

So I was like, I like rock climbing and I find using the Feldenkrais method actually helped my climbing. So I want to just teach that and try it out. Right. So that was this It's just a paradigm shift too. Like before I thought, Feldenkrais method, how do you learn it?

但它本质上是一种处世哲学，可以应用到生活的方方面面。

You just do the lessons. You follow the scripts. You do the sequences. But it's really, again, this philosophy of how to do things. You can apply to so many other things in life.

所以我在攀岩时会像幻影基督导师那样自我对话：能否更慢些？能否减少用力？能否更省力？注意你的起始动作。身体意象中还能纳入哪些部位？

So what I did was just when I'm doing some climbing, I talk to myself like a Phantom Christ teacher, can you do it more slowly? Can you do it with less E? Can you do it with less effort? Notice how you start. Which other part in your body can you include in your body image?

这在攀岩中很重要，因为你们太目标导向了。可能只关注双手——我的脚在哪？骨盆位置如何？

And that's a big thing, rock climbing, because you're so goal oriented. You're only probably paying attention to your hands, Where's my feet? Where's my pelvis?

你的呼吸。呼吸的质量。对。

Your breath. The quality of your breath. Yeah.

没错。所以我不仅精选了针对攀岩者的费登奎斯觉知动作课程，还设计了些能用费登奎斯方式进行的攀岩训练。

Yeah, exactly. So I just not only chose some Fountain Crest awareness through movement lessons for climbers that I think were essential, but also just some climbing exercise you can do in this Feldenkraisian way.

明白，明白。

Right, right.

有学员反馈说：'我从没注意过岩壁上的呼吸，但当我开始保持呼吸，所有难题突然都不是问题了。当我允许自己以慢节奏高觉知攀爬时，能持续数小时不疲惫。这太放松了，我非常快乐。'

To do climbing. And I receive students saying like, I never noticed my breathing on the wall, but once I notice and I keep myself breathing, all the difficulties were suddenly not a problem at all. And so it's like when I started to allow myself to climb with this slow pace and more awareness, I can climb for hours and not feeling tired. It's so relaxing. I'm so happy.

这些新体验让我觉得：我们正在触及某些真谛。

All these new experiences I heard from was like, we're something here.

是啊。很好。他们在岩壁上获得了更多动觉体验。哦对。

Yeah. Good. They're getting more kinesthetic appreciation on the on the wall. Oh, yeah.

那是——哦对，正是如此。

That's Oh, yeah. Exactly.

让事情变得更愉悦没什么错，对吧？

Nothing wrong nothing wrong with the with something being more pleasurable, is it?

哦，当然还有学生感到困惑，比如，当我放慢速度时，发现自己困难重重、身体紧绷。我不知道该怎么办，整个人都僵住了。然后我们也会针对这种情况进行训练。

Oh, and of course, there are students feeling all confused like, oh, when I slow down, I find I have so much difficulty and tightness. I don't know what to do. I'm freezing and stuff. And then we work with that too.

是啊，非常酷。关于你的牙齿还有什么其他让你兴奋的事吗？你现在在教攀岩者。

Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. Anything else with your anything else that's exciting for you about your teeth? So you're teaching rock climbers.

我记得你在中国教一些课程，也在这里教课。还有其他值得分享的吗？比如有趣的事、学员反馈之类的？

I think you're teaching some some classes in China. You're teaching some classes here. Anything else? Anything worth sharing about, I don't know, fun things or feedback or or?

让我想想。我不想这变成营销口号。随便说点吧。

Let me think. I don't want this to become like a marketing slogan. Pop up something quick.

不用勉强，没关系。

No, no. That's fine.

好吧，我简单分享另外两个让我感到新颖又感动的学员反馈。一个是攀岩课上的，我问他们是否觉得不够刺激？是否因为没有明显进步而感到不满？

Well, okay. I'll probably just quickly share two other pieces of feedback from my students that was also kind of new and touching for me. So one was, again, from the rock climber class. And I was asking, like, do you feel it's not as exciting? Do you feel you're not achieving a lot and therefore not satisfying?

结果学员说：但这是次深刻的触及体验。这60分钟里我的体验比以往任何运动形式都丰富。而且效果持续很久，第二天走路跑步时感觉完全不同——不仅更轻松，整个体验都更充实更有觉察。

And I heard the students like, but this is such a deep reach experience. I experienced so much more in the sixty minutes than any other exercise or movement modality I've done before. And that also apparently lasts for a while. Like next day when I walk and when I run, I feel so differently. Not only it's easier, but I feel more full and more aware of this whole experience.

所以我觉得这是费登奎斯教学的另一种价值。别总盯着功能改善——动作是否做得更好？而是这种深度沉浸于身体日常动作的状态，这种我们平时很难体验到的珍贵感受。

So I think that's another way to teach Feldenkraisis. Just forget about all this functional improvement. Are you doing movements better? But just the state of deeply immersed in your body and everyday movement, that is a very valuable experience that sadly, most of the time we can't experience.

确实。

Sure.

但一旦打开这个开关，其实处处都能感受到。记得有次做手部练习，轻轻移动手指后，我触碰的每样东西都变得柔软，每个动作都像多了层色彩。就像...哦，这简直像毒品。

But really it's everywhere once you open that switch. I remember doing one like hand lesson and like gently move the finger and stuff. Then everything I touch, it becomes a soft touch. And every move I'm doing, has this new layer of color there. It's like, oh, it's drug.

这让我想起有一次上手法课时，我们中途休息。当时正在上课，我们养了三只猫，其中一只总是害怕我，偶尔才会放松让我抚摸。那次课后——我记得是手法课——

I that reminds I remember one time doing a hand lesson, and we and and we took a break. It was during our class. And and we have we have three cats, and one of them is is always afraid and kind of is afraid of me and, you know, so once in a while relaxes and lets me pet her, but not very often. Anyway, I came out of this lesson. I think it was a hand lesson.

我们有十分钟休息时间，我就过去抚摸那只猫。那是第一次它真正放松下来。其实外界什么都没变，改变的是我接近它的方式。

And then, you we had ten minutes. And so I went over and I was petting the cat. And and it was like, for the first time, she just, like, would relax. Really and and and nothing changed for her. It was because of how I was was approaching, had shifted.

对，就是这样。

Yeah. But but yeah.

这不是两个神经系统的舞蹈。说得对。

That's not dance of two neuro systems. That's right.

没错，是的。

That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

这让我联想到另一个学生的反馈。他有武术背景，但长期受疼痛困扰。他说费登奎斯是第一个让他真正体验'爱自己'的方法。我从未向学生提及'爱'这个概念，但他反馈说这种练习让他学会用缓慢温柔的动作接纳自己。

And then that connects to the next comment I received. The student was from a more martial art background, but he also had a lot of issues of pain and stuff. And he said, Feldenkrais is the first thing I truly experienced, this notion of loving myself. I never mentioned this notion about love to my students, but the student gave me the feedback of, like, Feldenkrest make me feel I'm really loving myself. Like, I'm allowing myself to do slow gentle movement.

没有对错之分，不存在达标与否。

There's not a right or wrong. There's not a achieving or underachieving.

而且

And

我不需要成为最强壮的，不必无止境地追求更强——虽然最终可能实现。但这不是费登奎斯法的重点，你也不该这样评判自己。若将这种态度带入人际关系，我认为这正是该方法启发我改变生活诸多方面的关键。

I don't need to be the strongest. I don't always need to be stronger and stronger and stronger, although that could happen in the end. But that's not the focus of this method. And you don't evaluate yourself that way. And if you use that approach in your relationship, in your interaction with others, that's, I think, another big change how Fallen Christ method has enlightened me to change a lot of aspects of my life.

如果我暗自将他人视为学生，我的视角会如何转变？我会减少评判，延缓下结论，更开放柔和地对待。若对方不愿改变，我也不会强求。

If I see other people as a student, secretly see them as a student, like, how would my view change of a person? I would be a lot less judgmental and a lot less slower to come to a conclusion of what's going on. But be a bit more open and softer. And if this person doesn't want to change, I don't want to push.

是的。没错。不，我非常赞同这点。这种感受很真实。记得是杰夫·哈勒提到过，因为他参加了莫什·费登奎斯在美国阿默斯特举办的最后一期完整培训。

Yep. Yeah. No, I love that. And that comes that comes through. Think it was Jeff Haller who made the comment and he because he was at the Amherst, the last full training in The United States that Moshe Feldenkrais did.

很多人比如林恩当时也在场，可能吧——或者不，也许她在旧金山那期。总之莫什与每位学员相处了数周时间，杰夫印象最深的是莫什曾略带沮丧地说过一句话，大意是：

A lot of people are Lynn was there, think too. Or maybe no, maybe she was in San Francisco anyway. And Moshe he met, you know, he was with everybody for, know, weeks and weeks during this training and and a comment that really made a big difference to Jeff was Moshe was kind of frustrated. He said at one point and he said something like,

像是，

like,

你们这些人...你们还没学会如何真正关爱自己。所以我不得不替你们做这件事。但我要教你们的正是——让你们真正学会自我关怀。我欣赏这种观点的深度，不是肤浅的泡个澡这类表面功夫，而是直到你能真正倾听自己，与自己的生理、心理等全方位建立深刻联结之前，我们始终欠缺某种本质的东西。

you guys you you haven't learned how to take care of yourself or you or you haven't learned how to you haven't learned how to truly care for yourself. So I I have to do that for you. Until but that's really what I'm trying to teach you is is that is for you to really learn how to take care of yourself. And he and what I like about that is it's not not in a superficial way. It's not like, take a bath, you know, it's not sort of a superficial kind of a self care, but it's but it's sort of like until until you can really listen to yourself and have and have an intimate connection to your own self in the in the biggest sense of the word physiology, psychology, all of us, we have that intimacy, we're lacking something.

我记得莫什说得更直接，他说'我能比你自己更懂得照顾你'。

I think in my memory, Moshe put it in a much more confrontational way. He's like, I can take care of you much better than yourself.

对，没错。可能确实如此。

Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right. Maybe it is. Maybe that is what it is.

是啊。确实。

Yeah. Yeah.

不过我们老师阿琳·琼斯说过，莫什对小孩极尽温柔，但对成人却特别犀利直接，对吧？这很有趣。但确实，这重新定义了'自我照顾'的内涵。

But, yeah. Yeah. He I I think Arlene Zones, our teacher mentioned like Moshe is so gentle to kids, but he can really be confrontational to adults and be spicy about it. Right. So it's interesting, but yeah, At the same time, it's really a new notion of what what is taking care of myself.

嗯...消费主义教我们的那套，与我们真实体验之间有什么区别呢？

Mhmm. Mhmm. What what does this consumerism will teach us about that versus what is my actual experience? Mhmm.

嗯，说得太好了。我觉得可以在这个话题上收尾了。还有其他要补充的吗？

Mhmm. Yeah. Very cool. I think we should end on that note. Anything else to throw

问题。我没想到自己有这么多故事可讲。而且我打赌明年还会有更多故事。

questions. I didn't know I have so many stories to tell. And I bet there will be more stories next year.

我确信，我十分确定，我对此深信不疑。非常棒。好的，谢谢你，Jue。

I'm sure I'm certain I'm certain of it. Very cool. Well, thanks, Jue.

是的。谢谢你。

Yeah. Thank you.