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PEI CHUN HUA.
PEI CHUN HUA.
GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE!
GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE!
IT'S LOVELY TO BE HERE.
IT'S LOVELY TO BE HERE.
SHALL WE SWITCH TO MANDARIN?
SHALL WE SWITCH TO MANDARIN?
BUT IN CHINA, IT'S VERY WELL KNOWN THAT YOUR WHOLE FAMILY CAN SPEAK CHINE.
BUT IN CHINA, IT'S VERY WELL KNOWN THAT YOUR WHOLE FAMILY CAN SPEAK CHINE.
SE EXCEPT ME, EXCEPT YOU.
SE EXCEPT ME, EXCEPT YOU.
YES.
YES.
BUT YOU DID LEARN FROM YOUR CHILDREN AS WELL.
BUT YOU DID LEARN FROM YOUR CHILDREN AS WELL.
I'VE LEARNED A FEW THINGS FROM MY CHILDREN.
I'VE LEARNED A FEW THINGS FROM MY CHILDREN.
YES, I BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVE A VERY GOOD ACCENT AND THEY SOUND AS IF THEY COULD HAVE BEEN RAISED IN SHANGHAI OR.
YES, I BELIEVE THAT THEY HAVE A VERY GOOD ACCENT AND THEY SOUND AS IF THEY COULD HAVE BEEN RAISED IN SHANGHAI OR.
Oh, apparently.
Oh, apparently.
Yeah, and they're winners of the competition, the Chinese language competition.
Yeah, and they're winners of the competition, the Chinese language competition.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Can you give us some Mandarin?
Can you give us some Mandarin?
Well, there's this thing that my kids, I said, I said, I think Graham might want to hear something in Chinese.
Well, there's this thing that my kids, I said, I said, I think Graham might want to hear something in Chinese.
I said, What do you think I should say?
I said, What do you think I should say?
And they said, Tall chords are found p.
And they said, Tall chords are found p.
And I said, Oh, great, great.
And I said, Oh, great, great.
That's great.
That's great.
What does that mean?
What does that mean?
And they said, That's the act of taking your trousers off to fart.
And they said, That's the act of taking your trousers off to fart.
Oh.
Oh.
wow.
wow.
Did you learn anything from them rather than to ask?
Did you learn anything from them rather than to ask?
I know anything animals, I know some animals, some food.
I know anything animals, I know some animals, some food.
I can understand a lot when they're speaking.
I can understand a lot when they're speaking.
I can understand more than they think.
I can understand more than they think.
They do speak at home.
They do speak at home.
Yeah, they speak in everyday situations.
Yeah, they speak in everyday situations.
They use Chinese language.
They use Chinese language.
Yes.
Yes.
and the boys can talk among if they don't want me to understand, they can speak in Chinese.
and the boys can talk among if they don't want me to understand, they can speak in Chinese.
Then you just secretly tell mama.
Then you just secretly tell mama.
告诉妈妈。
告诉妈妈。
哦，不告诉妈妈。
哦，不告诉妈妈。
我不告诉妈妈。
我不告诉妈妈。
Must be like that.
Must be like that.
And I heard you learned something about uh the Chinese New Year's greeting for this year.
And I heard you learned something about uh the Chinese New Year's greeting for this year.
especially for this year.
especially for this year.
Oh yes.
Oh yes.
呃，马上有钱。
呃，马上有钱。
哇。
哇。
great。
great。
And recently you have company the UK prime minister in Shanghai.
And recently you have company the UK prime minister in Shanghai.
That was unexpected.
That was unexpected.
Unexpected.
Unexpected.
Unexpected.
Unexpected.
Um.
Um.
I have come to China because very excitingly that the broadcast of the play I did at the National Theatre last summer has been accepted to be played in cinemas in China, which is hugely exciting.
I have come to China because very excitingly that the broadcast of the play I did at the National Theatre last summer has been accepted to be played in cinemas in China, which is hugely exciting.
And we were planning to do some screenings in advance in Shanghai and Beijing, and it happened to.
And we were planning to do some screenings in advance in Shanghai and Beijing, and it happened to.
coincide with the visit of the prime minister.
coincide with the visit of the prime minister.
And because he was also bringing a cultural delegation as well as a business delegation, they invited me to go with him to speak to some acting students.
And because he was also bringing a cultural delegation as well as a business delegation, they invited me to go with him to speak to some acting students.
I think it's a brilliant thing.
I think it's a brilliant thing.
I'm very pleased that there's this new willingness to understand China.
I'm very pleased that there's this new willingness to understand China.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you look like the cultural ambassador for both China and the UK.
And you look like the cultural ambassador for both China and the UK.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
How does that feel?
How does that feel?
I think that's a compliment.
I think that's a compliment.
Well, I'm not a very political person, so it's a funny role for me.
Well, I'm not a very political person, so it's a funny role for me.
I think as an artist, it's important to stay apart from politics really, because you know my job is to tell human stories.
I think as an artist, it's important to stay apart from politics really, because you know my job is to tell human stories.
But I think when there's something as important as this, which is a you know... a meeting of minds of two countries I care about, then I.
But I think when there's something as important as this, which is a you know... a meeting of minds of two countries I care about, then I.
I am happy to be involved and in the meeting.
I am happy to be involved and in the meeting.
so you mentioned that you believe Chinese language is the language of the future.
so you mentioned that you believe Chinese language is the language of the future.
You know, Chinese is probably the language spoken by the largest number of people in the world currently.
You know, Chinese is probably the language spoken by the largest number of people in the world currently.
The population of China is so enormous, and I think the way China is starting to dominate in a world stage in terms of industry and job opportunities, I think.
The population of China is so enormous, and I think the way China is starting to dominate in a world stage in terms of industry and job opportunities, I think.
And China is obviously opening up as well, and wanting to be understood by the rest of the world in a new way.
And China is obviously opening up as well, and wanting to be understood by the rest of the world in a new way.
And I think you know, whereas it might have been English that was the most important language to learn, I think it is going to become Chinese.
And I think you know, whereas it might have been English that was the most important language to learn, I think it is going to become Chinese.
And I feel my children have a tremendous.
And I feel my children have a tremendous.
Advantage, we just were excited by the language more than thinking 0 this is going to be an opportunity in the future.
Advantage, we just were excited by the language more than thinking 0 this is going to be an opportunity in the future.
We just thought this is going to be very stimulating for the brain because a tonal language uses such a different part of the brain.
We just thought this is going to be very stimulating for the brain because a tonal language uses such a different part of the brain.
Yes, once I talked to a British diplomat and he was learning Chinese and he told me it hurts different part of the brain.
Yes, once I talked to a British diplomat and he was learning Chinese and he told me it hurts different part of the brain.
That's a very good description.
That's a very good description.
It employs, you know, it's coming from a different part where you remember the words and the tones.
It employs, you know, it's coming from a different part where you remember the words and the tones.
You can feel it.
You can feel it.
It is a different part.
It is a different part.
I like that description.
I like that description.
It hurts in a different way.
It hurts in a different way.
It takes a tremendous concentration, and also of course the characters.
It takes a tremendous concentration, and also of course the characters.
The way you read is so different.
The way you read is so different.
So I think it's very stimulating to a young brain to speak both languages.
So I think it's very stimulating to a young brain to speak both languages.
And so we have to see that, like today's world, so we are witnessing tendency of deglobalization.
And so we have to see that, like today's world, so we are witnessing tendency of deglobalization.
I mean more wars are being built and more borders are being closed.
I mean more wars are being built and more borders are being closed.
But still, as a mother, you think it is valuable to have your sons learning like another culture and value system.
But still, as a mother, you think it is valuable to have your sons learning like another culture and value system.
Why this is so important?
Why this is so important?
And what most you hope your son can take from Chinese culture?
And what most you hope your son can take from Chinese culture?
Well, I think I think China has a culture that is very distinct, and I think that you know there's been a kind of.
Well, I think I think China has a culture that is very distinct, and I think that you know there's been a kind of.
Westernization of many countries that have adopted trends that have come from America predominantly.
Westernization of many countries that have adopted trends that have come from America predominantly.
Even in the UK, we follow trends that come from America and China, you know, they're still a vital part of the culture and even in you see in popular cinema or whatever when values, for instance, of family are upheld.
Even in the UK, we follow trends that come from America and China, you know, they're still a vital part of the culture and even in you see in popular cinema or whatever when values, for instance, of family are upheld.
It's very meaningful.
It's very meaningful.
I always notice when I watch.
I always notice when I watch.
Chinese films, that the way a family is depicted is is different from English films, and and the way you often see parents and children and grandchildren all living together, and and being together much more than you might see in AH in a British film, I was just watching UM the the big hit of last year, Jling's boxing film.
Chinese films, that the way a family is depicted is is different from English films, and and the way you often see parents and children and grandchildren all living together, and and being together much more than you might see in AH in a British film, I was just watching UM the the big hit of last year, Jling's boxing film.
you have seen that one.
you have seen that one.
Yeah, I've seen that one.
Yeah, I've seen that one.
Um, You know, at the beginning, you have the parents are very involved in the story Oh, yes, between the sisters.
Um, You know, at the beginning, you have the parents are very involved in the story Oh, yes, between the sisters.
and I think if it was.
and I think if it was.
You know, if that was an English film, maybe you'd just have the sisters and the parents wouldn't be so present.
You know, if that was an English film, maybe you'd just have the sisters and the parents wouldn't be so present.
And I think it's all part of the filial piety, the shout, right?
And I think it's all part of the filial piety, the shout, right?
So you want your sons to be shout to you.
So you want your sons to be shout to you.
In my dreams, yeah.
In my dreams, yeah.
And then the other one is the modesty, humbleness.
And then the other one is the modesty, humbleness.
Qianxun?
Qianxun?
Oh, Qianxu, wow.
Oh, Qianxu, wow.
I find, you know, when I have been invited into a home in China, which I'm lucky, I would never have been if it was not for my children making friends.
I find, you know, when I have been invited into a home in China, which I'm lucky, I would never have been if it was not for my children making friends.
I feel that there's great openness and hospitality and, you know, you're welcomed into the home and there's no show or pretense.
I feel that there's great openness and hospitality and, you know, you're welcomed into the home and there's no show or pretense.
And they feed you all the time.
And they feed you all the time.
They feed you a lot, yeah, lots of food.
They feed you a lot, yeah, lots of food.
But also people are naturally very comfortable and easy with people.
But also people are naturally very comfortable and easy with people.
I feel in England.
I feel in England.
I don't know, it's a different feeling.
I don't know, it's a different feeling.
I once heard from a filmmaker that he... So he told me there's no single Chinese film without eating because having a meal is a big thing in the culture as well.
I once heard from a filmmaker that he... So he told me there's no single Chinese film without eating because having a meal is a big thing in the culture as well.
It's kind of you're gathering people and they eat.
It's kind of you're gathering people and they eat.
That's the most important thing in the daily life.
That's the most important thing in the daily life.
That's funny.
That's funny.
I was watching another film by this director.
I was watching another film by this director.
I don't know with the tones, because in English we don't learn the tones.
I don't know with the tones, because in English we don't learn the tones.
Begun, began, began.
Begun, began, began.
Yes, yes.
Yes, yes.
And he had a funny line that it's good to talk to people to have difficult conversations when you're eating, because when you're eating, you find it harder to lie.
And he had a funny line that it's good to talk to people to have difficult conversations when you're eating, because when you're eating, you find it harder to lie.
Oh, or you drink.
Oh, or you drink.
Maybe.
Maybe.
I think it's because you're concentrating.
I think it's because you're concentrating.
I think you meant you're concentrating on eating, so you're more likely to tell the truth when you're eating.
I think you meant you're concentrating on eating, so you're more likely to tell the truth when you're eating.
Honesty from the stomach.
Honesty from the stomach.
Maybe.
Maybe.
That's good to remember.
That's good to remember.
I thought it was a funny line.
I thought it was a funny line.
And you were the co producer of the three body problem.
And you were the co producer of the three body problem.
Or Santi.
Or Santi.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Is just amazing.
Is just amazing.
I mean, it's the most exciting book or three books that I've read for years.
I mean, it's the most exciting book or three books that I've read for years.
You finished the whole three.
You finished the whole three.
Yes.
Yes.
But I mean, it's the idea.
But I mean, it's the idea.
It's such a magnificent idea that here is this threat coming, but not in our lifetime.
It's such a magnificent idea that here is this threat coming, but not in our lifetime.
It's such a challenge to humanity.
It's such a challenge to humanity.
What do you do if it's not going to affect you personally now?
What do you do if it's not going to affect you personally now?
How do you, you know, and what are the attitudes?
How do you, you know, and what are the attitudes?
Are you know, what is the spirit of somebody who could just live out their life knowing that they will never see the problem?
Are you know, what is the spirit of somebody who could just live out their life knowing that they will never see the problem?
Or do you strive to help the future generations?
Or do you strive to help the future generations?
Or you know, do you become loyal to the incoming force?
Or you know, do you become loyal to the incoming force?
Do you escape?
Do you escape?
Do you... It's just so much ethical.
Do you... It's just so much ethical.
Problems and the characters are so interesting, yes?
Problems and the characters are so interesting, yes?
And we wanted to make more people aware of that story, and we are very excited that the great Zhang Yimou is making a film.
And we wanted to make more people aware of that story, and we are very excited that the great Zhang Yimou is making a film.
You know about this?
You know about this?
Oh yes, making a Chinese film.
Oh yes, making a Chinese film.
Not yet there, no, no, not yet there, but it is coming.
Not yet there, no, no, not yet there, but it is coming.
There is also a Chinese version, so the TV series of San Ti as well.
There is also a Chinese version, so the TV series of San Ti as well.
So it came out like almost the same time with that Netflix version.
So it came out like almost the same time with that Netflix version.
When you compare this to, I mean, the main characters just changed to more like international faces.
When you compare this to, I mean, the main characters just changed to more like international faces.
I guess that's for the market, right?
I guess that's for the market, right?
Not my, not my choice, if I'm honest.
Not my, not my choice, if I'm honest.
Okay.
Okay.
But yes, it's the, it's to do with.
But yes, it's the, it's to do with.
I mean, there's so much television made now where people are obeying algorithms, obeying the wisdom of algorithms of what they feel people need.
I mean, there's so much television made now where people are obeying algorithms, obeying the wisdom of algorithms of what they feel people need.
And that's, you know, I'm someone who has always relied on instinct and gut instinct and my own feelings about things because I think that's how you make art.
And that's, you know, I'm someone who has always relied on instinct and gut instinct and my own feelings about things because I think that's how you make art.
But I think there is more and more tendency in television to.
But I think there is more and more tendency in television to.
To listen to a wide variety of inputs and base your decisions and artistic judgment on that, so therefore you know you want one character from here and one character from here and a boy and a girl and an older one and a younger one.
To listen to a wide variety of inputs and base your decisions and artistic judgment on that, so therefore you know you want one character from here and one character from here and a boy and a girl and an older one and a younger one.
And I don't think that's... I don't think that's how you should make art, but it's how a lot of art is being made.
And I don't think that's... I don't think that's how you should make art, but it's how a lot of art is being made.
Yeah, if I diplomatic enough, I don't know.
Yeah, if I diplomatic enough, I don't know.
You just touch all... Yeah, very right.
You just touch all... Yeah, very right.
Yes, but it's correct.
Yes, but it's correct.
But the main thing is that the story was introduced to a lot of people.
But the main thing is that the story was introduced to a lot of people.
Who didn't know the storyORY, and UM that's exciting.
Who didn't know the storyORY, and UM that's exciting.
YEAH.
YEAH.
lastAST year, I saw the incredibleBLE documentary that the three astronautsAUTS made when they were ON board the spacecraft SHJ S.
lastAST year, I saw the incredibleBLE documentary that the three astronautsAUTS made when they were ON board the spacecraft SHJ S.
which is yeah1616 OK.
which is yeah1616 OK.
OK16, UM, and they were givenEN a UM a 16 millimeterET cameraA, and they FIL their whole Smonth UM stay in space, and then it was cutUT TO togetherER into a documentaryENT, and it's so.
OK16, UM, and they were givenEN a UM a 16 millimeterET cameraA, and they FIL their whole Smonth UM stay in space, and then it was cutUT TO togetherER into a documentaryENT, and it's so.
It's such a beautiful film because they also show beautiful pictures of the Earth.
It's such a beautiful film because they also show beautiful pictures of the Earth.
But in terms of, you know, Chinese innovation and, you know, scientific exploration, she was, I think, Wang Yaping, who was one of the astronauts, became the first woman to do a spacewalk.
But in terms of, you know, Chinese innovation and, you know, scientific exploration, she was, I think, Wang Yaping, who was one of the astronauts, became the first woman to do a spacewalk.
And she's also a mother.
And she's also a mother.
And you really feel watching this film, you know?
And you really feel watching this film, you know?
I worry when I'm away from my children for two or three weeks.
I worry when I'm away from my children for two or three weeks.
She's away for six months and so far away, so far away.
She's away for six months and so far away, so far away.
And you see her in the film talking to her little daughter who's about four, who's staying with her grandparents.
And you see her in the film talking to her little daughter who's about four, who's staying with her grandparents.
I mean, you just wonder what this child is.
I mean, you just wonder what this child is.
Is thinking, and you can see that she is emotional, Wang Yaping, but you also know that she is so... She's so full of belief that what she's doing is furthering the cause of you know Chinese space exploration, the world space exploration, women in space, women's careers.
Is thinking, and you can see that she is emotional, Wang Yaping, but you also know that she is so... She's so full of belief that what she's doing is furthering the cause of you know Chinese space exploration, the world space exploration, women in space, women's careers.
And it's very admirable.
And it's very admirable.
I think the daughter must be very proud as well.
I think the daughter must be very proud as well.
I think the daughter will be tremendously proud, even if.
I think the daughter will be tremendously proud, even if.
You know, at four, you don't fully understand.
You know, at four, you don't fully understand.
As she grows up, she'll just think this was an amazing part of my life.
As she grows up, she'll just think this was an amazing part of my life.
Talking about about so the working mom.
Talking about about so the working mom.
So into Aliya, it's stunning.
So into Aliya, it's stunning.
It's stunning.
It's stunning.
Well, thank you.
Well, thank you.
Well, I guess every, you know, working mom will see themselves in Jessica Parks.
Well, I guess every, you know, working mom will see themselves in Jessica Parks.
I think that was the amazing thing about doing this play.
I think that was the amazing thing about doing this play.
So I play a criminal court judge, which is a rarefied profession.
So I play a criminal court judge, which is a rarefied profession.
It's not a lot of women, you know?
It's not a lot of women, you know?
There are maybe about 50-50 women in the law now, but fewer women as judges.
There are maybe about 50-50 women in the law now, but fewer women as judges.
In fact, the Old Bailey, which is our biggest, most prestigious criminal court where the biggest trials are tried, they now have equal men and women as judges, which is quite a breakthrough.
In fact, the Old Bailey, which is our biggest, most prestigious criminal court where the biggest trials are tried, they now have equal men and women as judges, which is quite a breakthrough.
But Jessica Parks is also a woman with a son trying to be a good mother, trying to be a good wife, being loyal to her friends, her female friends, cooking dinner, doing the shopping, doing the ironing, finding her son's lost shirt.
But Jessica Parks is also a woman with a son trying to be a good mother, trying to be a good wife, being loyal to her friends, her female friends, cooking dinner, doing the shopping, doing the ironing, finding her son's lost shirt.
You know, she's a woman that we all recognize doing the Yes, I got it.
You know, she's a woman that we all recognize doing the Yes, I got it.
We call it the juggler.
We call it the juggler.
So the juggler, the very expert, yeah.
So the juggler, the very expert, yeah.
so juggler.
so juggler.
Do you use that in Chinese?
Do you use that in Chinese?
Yes.
Yes.
We say something like try to balance work and life, but it never.
We say something like try to balance work and life, but it never.
yeah, you're more in control than us then.
yeah, you're more in control than us then.
Multi tasking.
Multi tasking.
Yeah, you were like flying all around, always in motion and change different clothes to show you have different identity or the roles in your life.
Yeah, you were like flying all around, always in motion and change different clothes to show you have different identity or the roles in your life.
Yes.
Yes.
And I got my first laugh when I watched that Jesse was in court during something very serious, then the son called, Mom, where's my shirt?
And I got my first laugh when I watched that Jesse was in court during something very serious, then the son called, Mom, where's my shirt?
And when she was at karaoke, the son asked, Mom, are you coming home soon?
And when she was at karaoke, the son asked, Mom, are you coming home soon?
It sounds so familiar.
It sounds so familiar.
And this is so this level of reality is amazing.
And this is so this level of reality is amazing.
I think it's very exciting to do a contemporary play where people feel, Oh, that's me.
I think it's very exciting to do a contemporary play where people feel, Oh, that's me.
So women came to see the play and thought, Oh, that's my life.
So women came to see the play and thought, Oh, that's my life.
But also.
But also.
A friend of mine, for instance, came with her son who's 19, and at the end of the play he turned to her and said, 'Oh my goodness, ma'am, that's you, isn't it?
A friend of mine, for instance, came with her son who's 19, and at the end of the play he turned to her and said, 'Oh my goodness, ma'am, that's you, isn't it?
' And she said, 'Yeah, that's me,' and he said, 'Thank you for the film.
' And she said, 'Yeah, that's me,' and he said, 'Thank you for the film.
' It was a real moment, and then for men, I think men also saw.
' It was a real moment, and then for men, I think men also saw.
I mean, men they found some things uncomfortable because it also explores quite you know sensitively what it means in a marriage if the woman has more power in ah in the job than the man.
I mean, men they found some things uncomfortable because it also explores quite you know sensitively what it means in a marriage if the woman has more power in ah in the job than the man.
So in fact, in this complex dynamic, her husband would still earn more than her as a barrister.
So in fact, in this complex dynamic, her husband would still earn more than her as a barrister.
Yes, but she has more prestige and power in the law than she does.
Yes, but she has more prestige and power in the law than she does.
Like the first woman in the space.
Like the first woman in the space.
Yeah, I mean yes, she reached that level.
Yeah, I mean yes, she reached that level.
Yes, but she has to deal with this very.
Yes, but she has to deal with this very.
Delicate ego of the husband.
Delicate ego of the husband.
exactly, yeah, exactly.
exactly, yeah, exactly.
And many women who came to see the play actually after.
And many women who came to see the play actually after.
you know, it sparked a lot of conversations and some women came to me afterwards and talked about that topic and said, gosh, that was really quite difficult.
you know, it sparked a lot of conversations and some women came to me afterwards and talked about that topic and said, gosh, that was really quite difficult.
I was sitting with my husband and we both recognized that scenario, and one woman said, you know, I earn more than my husband and I try and hide it.
I was sitting with my husband and we both recognized that scenario, and one woman said, you know, I earn more than my husband and I try and hide it.
I try and hide that I earn more.
I try and hide that I earn more.
Wow, this place like a mirror.
Wow, this place like a mirror.
Yes, yes.
Yes, yes.
So where do you see yourself there?
So where do you see yourself there?
Do you do you see yourself?
Do you do you see yourself?
Well, I see myself doing the juggle.
Well, I see myself doing the juggle.
Yes, I see myself trying to do.
Yes, I see myself trying to do.
Because I still believe that I want to raise my children myself.
Because I still believe that I want to raise my children myself.
I want to cook their meals and make their packed lunches and.
I want to cook their meals and make their packed lunches and.
wash their clothes.
wash their clothes.
I mean, people would assume a movie star like you won't need to do all this by yourself.
I mean, people would assume a movie star like you won't need to do all this by yourself.
I think it's about wanting to do it, you know?
I think it's about wanting to do it, you know?
It's about wanting to.
It's about wanting to.
To give the children the.
To give the children the.
The natural balance, I suppose, of what life is like if you were not famous, I think.
The natural balance, I suppose, of what life is like if you were not famous, I think.
Yeah, understand it's important to me that we as mother.
Yeah, understand it's important to me that we as mother.
we kind of try to do the contribution like everything we won't do it by ourselves.
we kind of try to do the contribution like everything we won't do it by ourselves.
We do why?
We do why?
Satisfy all expectations and yeah, it's like really so the giving, the sense of giving.
Satisfy all expectations and yeah, it's like really so the giving, the sense of giving.
It's it's the second natural.
It's it's the second natural.
it's it's an instinct too of course, it's an instinct you know the instinct to protect your child or to um.
it's it's an instinct too of course, it's an instinct you know the instinct to protect your child or to um.
To protect them, to want to feed them, to keep them warm.
To protect them, to want to feed them, to keep them warm.
It's a biological instinct, isn't it?
It's a biological instinct, isn't it?
But when I hang up, I think about it and it bothers me slightly.
But when I hang up, I think about it and it bothers me slightly.
It's this job.
It's this job.
I mean, it takes up so much.
I mean, it takes up so much.
It's never balanced.
It's never balanced.
As a mother, I always feel guilty.
As a mother, I always feel guilty.
I look at the photo of Harry on the mantelpiece.
I look at the photo of Harry on the mantelpiece.
He's holding a ball, he's smiling, but I see the look of slight trepidation in his face.
He's holding a ball, he's smiling, but I see the look of slight trepidation in his face.
He's never been any good at sport, poor kid.
He's never been any good at sport, poor kid.
And I try to remind myself of the hours that I have spent with Harry.
And I try to remind myself of the hours that I have spent with Harry.
I don't do that at speed.
I don't do that at speed.
My beautiful boy, his vulnerability.
My beautiful boy, his vulnerability.
God, what is it to be a parent?
God, what is it to be a parent?
Well.
Well.
the worry they don't tell you.
the worry they don't tell you.
Remembering the play that Jessie says something like 'I'm so grateful to the husband', then she asks herself like 'Why should I be grateful?
Remembering the play that Jessie says something like 'I'm so grateful to the husband', then she asks herself like 'Why should I be grateful?
' Yes, that's right.
' Yes, that's right.
He compliments her on the dinner party.
He compliments her on the dinner party.
Oh yeah, she's... they've just thrown a party.
Oh yeah, she's... they've just thrown a party.
They've had a lot of friends round, and he says something nice like.
They've had a lot of friends round, and he says something nice like.
You were great tonight, and she says, '0 I feel grateful.
You were great tonight, and she says, '0 I feel grateful.
' And then she says, 'Why am I grateful?
' And then she says, 'Why am I grateful?
' This kind of... and that always got a laugh in the audience from the women.
' This kind of... and that always got a laugh in the audience from the women.
because she prepared all the food and the husband only came with the cheese, the cheese and delivered.
because she prepared all the food and the husband only came with the cheese, the cheese and delivered.
Yes, and he feels good about his contribution.
Yes, and he feels good about his contribution.
He feels he is made a big contribution.
He feels he is made a big contribution.
But on the modern so parenting, I think this play is more like.
But on the modern so parenting, I think this play is more like.
A question rather than an answer, because what strikes me is that.
A question rather than an answer, because what strikes me is that.
Boys today, they often grew up without a very clear male role models because the fathers like usually came out of like another time, another different understanding about sort of masculinity, how to behave with women and all this.
Boys today, they often grew up without a very clear male role models because the fathers like usually came out of like another time, another different understanding about sort of masculinity, how to behave with women and all this.
Did you, you know, discuss this with as your partner?
Did you, you know, discuss this with as your partner?
I'm sure like in an age of growing feminism, how can we raise boys?
I'm sure like in an age of growing feminism, how can we raise boys?
Such an important question, and also a huge part of the play.
Such an important question, and also a huge part of the play.
AND.
AND.
It, um, a lot of the play came out of a conversation that Susie Miller, our writer, had with a man who came to see her previous play Prima Facie, an older man maybe in his fifties, who said, 'Gosh, you know that play has really made me think,' and I, you know, I can't say that all my interactions with women when I was.
It, um, a lot of the play came out of a conversation that Susie Miller, our writer, had with a man who came to see her previous play Prima Facie, an older man maybe in his fifties, who said, 'Gosh, you know that play has really made me think,' and I, you know, I can't say that all my interactions with women when I was.
In my teens and twenties were one hundred percent, you know, and then he gave up, meaning the players made me think, did I have consent always for every interaction or intimate encounter with a woman, did I, or was it blurred, you know?
In my teens and twenties were one hundred percent, you know, and then he gave up, meaning the players made me think, did I have consent always for every interaction or intimate encounter with a woman, did I, or was it blurred, you know?
And so Susie really wanted to write a play where we addressed the fact that men don't feel very comfortable talking about this stuff.
And so Susie really wanted to write a play where we addressed the fact that men don't feel very comfortable talking about this stuff.
And you know that there's a trust and an expectation that boys will learn.
And you know that there's a trust and an expectation that boys will learn.
And yet we have this particularly interesting time because our children have access to the internet, which will answer all their questions, all their desires, anything they want to know without the care of a parent.
And yet we have this particularly interesting time because our children have access to the internet, which will answer all their questions, all their desires, anything they want to know without the care of a parent.
Don't tell.
Don't tell.
We are going to say mama, yeah, and it will answer them without responsibility or yes, you know.
We are going to say mama, yeah, and it will answer them without responsibility or yes, you know.
So we know our children's hearts, but the internet knows their mind.
So we know our children's hearts, but the internet knows their mind.
Oh, you know, and the children... The internet knows, you know.
Oh, you know, and the children... The internet knows, you know.
You look at any of the social media channels, it's feeding you.
You look at any of the social media channels, it's feeding you.
It knows what you want to see, and then it offers you something else, and you think, 'Oh, that's interesting.
It knows what you want to see, and then it offers you something else, and you think, 'Oh, that's interesting.
' So you follow that.
' So you follow that.
So the internet.
So the internet.
KNOWS OUR CHILDREN'S UM.
KNOWS OUR CHILDREN'S UM.
you know interests and sometimes they are dangerous impulses, or you know a child likes something a little bit risky, so the internet shows them something more risky, and then suddenly they are watching stuff that we are not aware of, and it is how as parents we we do battle with that, that is also part of the play because these apps and the internet is built.
you know interests and sometimes they are dangerous impulses, or you know a child likes something a little bit risky, so the internet shows them something more risky, and then suddenly they are watching stuff that we are not aware of, and it is how as parents we we do battle with that, that is also part of the play because these apps and the internet is built.
To claim our children's minds.
To claim our children's minds.
It's designed to do that.
It's designed to do that.
Oh yes, you know.
Oh yes, you know.
And the peer pressure is also online.
And the peer pressure is also online.
There's a peer pressure as well.
There's a peer pressure as well.
Of course, it's not always what we see and what we feel face to face.
Of course, it's not always what we see and what we feel face to face.
My husband has always been a big supporter and advocate for women.
My husband has always been a big supporter and advocate for women.
And one thing is I have two boys.
And one thing is I have two boys.
He always pretends to my sons that when we're having dinner.
He always pretends to my sons that when we're having dinner.
There's an invisible girl at the table.
There's an invisible girl at the table.
So we call her Bella and we have to imagine at all times that Bella is there.
So we call her Bella and we have to imagine at all times that Bella is there.
She's a thirteen year old girl.
She's a thirteen year old girl.
So no conversation that isn't okay in front of Bella can happen.
So no conversation that isn't okay in front of Bella can happen.
So therefore, you know, you don't have a rude conversation because, you know, because Bella is there.
So therefore, you know, you don't have a rude conversation because, you know, because Bella is there.
That's great.
That's great.
We should learn from that.
We should learn from that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's got some good ideas like that.
He's got some good ideas like that.
And does Bella grow?
And does Bella grow?
I think we haven't, I mean, Bella is quite recent.
I think we haven't, I mean, Bella is quite recent.
She is, I mean, I guess she's maybe now fourteen or she's turning fourteen this year.
She is, I mean, I guess she's maybe now fourteen or she's turning fourteen this year.
So they don't think Bella's going to become their girlfriend or something.
So they don't think Bella's going to become their girlfriend or something.
A sort of invisible sister.
A sort of invisible sister.
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I think it's just important that, you know, that when you're outnumbered, like I am, you know, with three men, that the conversation doesn't become too masculine all the time.
I think it's just important that, you know, that when you're outnumbered, like I am, you know, with three men, that the conversation doesn't become too masculine all the time.
I see, I see.
I see, I see.
And that respect of women is sort of built into conversation.
And that respect of women is sort of built into conversation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I knew that so Inka Lia got very high score on the Chinese rating, you know, system.
I knew that so Inka Lia got very high score on the Chinese rating, you know, system.
豆瓣。
豆瓣。
Yeah, like out of 10, it's already got 9.5, which is amazing.
Yeah, like out of 10, it's already got 9.5, which is amazing.
It's amazing, incredible.
It's amazing, incredible.
But the top comment, I mean the one that like the most, so a person plays from a young girl who says that after watching this play, I'm so determined not to give birth.
But the top comment, I mean the one that like the most, so a person plays from a young girl who says that after watching this play, I'm so determined not to give birth.
It will be a disaster to have a war.
It will be a disaster to have a war.
Oh no!
Oh no!
I mean that's not the message.
I mean that's not the message.
That's not the fear.
That's not the fear.
I mean it's serious problem.
I mean it's serious problem.
People don't know how to rise sons or.
People don't know how to rise sons or.
No, I mean, we don't want this play to be something that is critical of men at all because, you know, men are wonderful.
No, I mean, we don't want this play to be something that is critical of men at all because, you know, men are wonderful.
We need each other.
We need each other.
We need each other.
We need each other.
It's about dialogue.
It's about dialogue.
It's about promoting dialogue.
It's about promoting dialogue.
And I think Jessica is a mother who feels she's done her bit.
And I think Jessica is a mother who feels she's done her bit.
You know, she's talked to her son about sex and she's talked to her son about pornography and she's talked to him about.
You know, she's talked to her son about sex and she's talked to her son about pornography and she's talked to him about.
you know bullying but she hasn't.
you know bullying but she hasn't.
She's missed the online stuff she hasn't done, she hasn't talked to him properly about.
She's missed the online stuff she hasn't done, she hasn't talked to him properly about.
I think she's always felt that any threat would be coming from outside, and if he's protected at home, he's safe.
I think she's always felt that any threat would be coming from outside, and if he's protected at home, he's safe.
But in fact, the threat is inside our homes because it's the internet, and it's about keeping an open dialogue.
But in fact, the threat is inside our homes because it's the internet, and it's about keeping an open dialogue.
It's probably about you know having an access to your child's online activity and talking about what they're doing, and also if they are doing something, you know boys will watch pornography, they will.
It's probably about you know having an access to your child's online activity and talking about what they're doing, and also if they are doing something, you know boys will watch pornography, they will.
And if they do, don't create shame around it.
And if they do, don't create shame around it.
It's entertainment, we understand, but let's talk about how it's not representative of sexual encounters in the real world.
It's entertainment, we understand, but let's talk about how it's not representative of sexual encounters in the real world.
It's those questions that Susie's not afraid to have, and I think she's okay making people feel a bit uncomfortable and also making them laugh while feeling uncomfortable, which helps.
It's those questions that Susie's not afraid to have, and I think she's okay making people feel a bit uncomfortable and also making them laugh while feeling uncomfortable, which helps.
I had so many conversations with young teenage boys, and a lot of them came up to the fact that they wanted to be better.
I had so many conversations with young teenage boys, and a lot of them came up to the fact that they wanted to be better.
They wanted to be men who respected women.
They wanted to be men who respected women.
And yet in the kind of chat rooms where the boys are all talking together, that's when the talk can get a bit crude and a bit disrespectful because you're fitting in.
And yet in the kind of chat rooms where the boys are all talking together, that's when the talk can get a bit crude and a bit disrespectful because you're fitting in.
And it takes a very strong man to say, actually, I don't want to be part of this anymore.
And it takes a very strong man to say, actually, I don't want to be part of this anymore.
I see which some do to say, because if you draw, if you're the cool one and you draw a line in the sand and say that's not okay, then everyone else will respect you and follow you, but it takes you know.
I see which some do to say, because if you draw, if you're the cool one and you draw a line in the sand and say that's not okay, then everyone else will respect you and follow you, but it takes you know.
It takes it takes the cool guys to say no, yeah, enough's enough.
It takes it takes the cool guys to say no, yeah, enough's enough.
And it takes a play to start all this, and it takes a conversation to.
And it takes a play to start all this, and it takes a conversation to.
start all the conversation.
start all the conversation.
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
Exactly, exactly, exactly.
When I watch it, I... So I think if the first wave of feminism is about girls will get equal chances to be the judges, like to so to enter all the professions.
When I watch it, I... So I think if the first wave of feminism is about girls will get equal chances to be the judges, like to so to enter all the professions.
And now it seems to be the second wave of feminism, is the girls already in this kind of you know positions and managing a family as well?
And now it seems to be the second wave of feminism, is the girls already in this kind of you know positions and managing a family as well?
Yeah, yet still facing so the pressure and all kind of invisible barriers in the life.
Yeah, yet still facing so the pressure and all kind of invisible barriers in the life.
Do you feel this way?
Do you feel this way?
I think is an interesting question around female ambition in general is that to say that you're ambitious has always been quite a masculine idea and if a woman describes herself as ambitious.
I think is an interesting question around female ambition in general is that to say that you're ambitious has always been quite a masculine idea and if a woman describes herself as ambitious.
Other women quite often and men can be quite judgmental of that, whereas if a man is ambitious, it's just admired, you know.
Other women quite often and men can be quite judgmental of that, whereas if a man is ambitious, it's just admired, you know.
And I think the play raises the fact that Jessica is very proud of her achievements, but she always minimizes them.
And I think the play raises the fact that Jessica is very proud of her achievements, but she always minimizes them.
She's always playing down, saying it's not her right, but it's different, isn't it?
She's always playing down, saying it's not her right, but it's different, isn't it?
Different, yes.
Different, yes.
But I think you can be humble and also proud of your achievements.
But I think you can be humble and also proud of your achievements.
I think you can recognize that you know it's that you usually have got there by hard work and perseverance and commitment and passion and drive, and it's okay to be to be proud of that.
I think you can recognize that you know it's that you usually have got there by hard work and perseverance and commitment and passion and drive, and it's okay to be to be proud of that.
But also you can be humble in recognizing that other people have helped you get there, and you know it's the people who've educated you and all the contributing factors to your success.
But also you can be humble in recognizing that other people have helped you get there, and you know it's the people who've educated you and all the contributing factors to your success.
But I mean, in court, I spoke to many female judges.
But I mean, in court, I spoke to many female judges.
There's still judgment, of course.
There's still judgment, of course.
There's still barristers who.
There's still barristers who.
Who you can see don't respect a female judge like they respect a male.
Who you can see don't respect a female judge like they respect a male.
Do you see there's an amazing clip that was played in a US court?
Do you see there's an amazing clip that was played in a US court?
I don't know if you saw it, where a barrister stood up.
I don't know if you saw it, where a barrister stood up.
There was a female judge and she said a comment to him and he stood up and he said, 'Look, honey.
There was a female judge and she said a comment to him and he stood up and he said, 'Look, honey.
oh yes, yes.
oh yes, yes.
I remember that one.
I remember that one.
' And then he said, 'I'm so embarrassed,' and she said.
' And then he said, 'I'm so embarrassed,' and she said.
Yes, I imagine you are.
Yes, I imagine you are.
He said, I'm so sorry.
He said, I'm so sorry.
It just came out.
It just came out.
Listen, honey.
Listen, honey.
I mean, can you imagine?
I mean, can you imagine?
It's awful.
It's awful.
It's awful.
It's awful.
This could have been three separate.
This could have been three separate.
Okay, but it wasn't three separate.
Okay, but it wasn't three separate.
Let's go with what happened in the case.
Let's go with what happened in the case.
But honey, or oh my God, I'm sorry.
But honey, or oh my God, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, that... that... that I don't know what to say to that.
I'm sorry, that... that... that I don't know what to say to that.
I apologize.
I apologize.
Okay, go ahead.
Okay, go ahead.
He couldn't really speak after that.
He couldn't really speak after that.
I mean, it's just the worst thing.
I mean, it's just the worst thing.
I think the female judge, they must be very happy that you... you... you went to them and put their... you know... stories on the stage.
I think the female judge, they must be very happy that you... you... you went to them and put their... you know... stories on the stage.
Well, I did it for them.
Well, I did it for them.
I mean, the play was really hard.
I mean, the play was really hard.
It was really at one stage of rehearsal, I thought I can't do this.
It was really at one stage of rehearsal, I thought I can't do this.
It's huge this play.
It's huge this play.
There's so much to learn and you feel that you can't get it into your body in the way that it needs to be.
There's so much to learn and you feel that you can't get it into your body in the way that it needs to be.
You need to change on a sixpence because the scenes are you don't leave stage and come back with a different mood.
You need to change on a sixpence because the scenes are you don't leave stage and come back with a different mood.
One minute I'm in court, then I'm at home, then I'm remembering a story from ten years ago.
One minute I'm in court, then I'm at home, then I'm remembering a story from ten years ago.
Then I'm remembering a story from fifteen years ago.
Then I'm remembering a story from fifteen years ago.
Then I'm with my son, then I'm alone, then I'm creating other characters and I'm doing the ironing and I'm doing the cooking and I'm unloading the shopping and I'm doing the washing up and I thought I can't do this.
Then I'm with my son, then I'm alone, then I'm creating other characters and I'm doing the ironing and I'm doing the cooking and I'm unloading the shopping and I'm doing the washing up and I thought I can't do this.
I can't do this.
I can't do this.
So how can you?
So how can you?
And then I thought I can't.
And then I thought I can't.
And then I went out for dinner.
And then I went out for dinner.
with some of these women and I sat at this table in a restaurant with eight of the kind of.
with some of these women and I sat at this table in a restaurant with eight of the kind of.
You know, most prestigious female judges in London, and they are such fabulous women, funny and intellectual and warm and empathetic and so different from one another and rude when they want to be and, you know, they can be, they can tell you the truth, they can look at the world with such a.
You know, most prestigious female judges in London, and they are such fabulous women, funny and intellectual and warm and empathetic and so different from one another and rude when they want to be and, you know, they can be, they can tell you the truth, they can look at the world with such a.
Kind of just such clarity, and I thought okay, I have to do this because you are so fabulous.
Kind of just such clarity, and I thought okay, I have to do this because you are so fabulous.
I see, I need to put all of you on stage somehow.
I see, I need to put all of you on stage somehow.
And this project must be very challenging and demanding for you.
And this project must be very challenging and demanding for you.
I mean.
I mean.
physically looking at the... It feels like swimming the English Channel every night.
physically looking at the... It feels like swimming the English Channel every night.
Yeah.
Yeah.
by the way, do you still remember the first line you have in this play?
by the way, do you still remember the first line you have in this play?
I certainly do.
I certainly do.
Am I allowed to say that on yes please?
Am I allowed to say that on yes please?
The fucking patriarchy.
The fucking patriarchy.
do you still feel it?
do you still feel it?
The futurarchy.
The futurarchy.
I mean we used to think it's gone like we fight it.
I mean we used to think it's gone like we fight it.
I mean we won the battle, but still... I mean it comes back in a very complicated way.
I mean we won the battle, but still... I mean it comes back in a very complicated way.
It comes back in the thing about in court because court is a theater as well, and court is a theater of looks and glances and attitudes.
It comes back in the thing about in court because court is a theater as well, and court is a theater of looks and glances and attitudes.
So the patriarchy comes for a judge in the way a barrister sits, you know?
So the patriarchy comes for a judge in the way a barrister sits, you know?
A barrister sits like this.
A barrister sits like this.
Look, when it's a female judge, yeah.
Look, when it's a female judge, yeah.
it's lack of respect.
it's lack of respect.
There's apparently one guy, one barrister, has sort of put his foot up or something.
There's apparently one guy, one barrister, has sort of put his foot up or something.
You know, it's an attitude.
You know, it's an attitude.
It's a... it's sort of you know shifting or yawning while a woman's speaking.
It's a... it's sort of you know shifting or yawning while a woman's speaking.
It's... it's all the tiny... it's the... it's the... it's the nuance that... that also conveys... and it is patri.
It's... it's all the tiny... it's the... it's the... it's the nuance that... that also conveys... and it is patri.
archy toxic actually for both agendas, even for men.
archy toxic actually for both agendas, even for men.
It's not a very healthy thing when you and you can see in the play, right?
It's not a very healthy thing when you and you can see in the play, right?
It's for the father and for the son.
It's for the father and for the son.
I think one thing, I feel it's really, you know, touching when the father couldn't, you know, express himself.
I think one thing, I feel it's really, you know, touching when the father couldn't, you know, express himself.
He said, I just don't know what to tell.
He said, I just don't know what to tell.
I know it's moving and I think lots of men at that point cried actually.
I know it's moving and I think lots of men at that point cried actually.
Oh.
Oh.
You know, men, English grown men, you know, in their fifties and sixties, found that a truth that hit home, hit hard.
You know, men, English grown men, you know, in their fifties and sixties, found that a truth that hit home, hit hard.
There's a scene where my husband, I've found my son's computer and I've gone through my son's computer.
There's a scene where my husband, I've found my son's computer and I've gone through my son's computer.
And I didn't want to do it, and I feel as I'm betraying him, and I know his password, and I go in and I read all his messages, and I see the websites he's been looking at.
And I didn't want to do it, and I feel as I'm betraying him, and I know his password, and I go in and I read all his messages, and I see the websites he's been looking at.
And when my husband comes home, I show him all this stuff, including this misogynistic chat and the sharing of photos of young girls' bodies, and you know.
And when my husband comes home, I show him all this stuff, including this misogynistic chat and the sharing of photos of young girls' bodies, and you know.
Boys showing their videos of their sexual conquests, and my husband is devastated by seeing it.
Boys showing their videos of their sexual conquests, and my husband is devastated by seeing it.
And I really hit him hard verbally.
And I really hit him hard verbally.
I say, 'you know why the hell didn't you speak to him about this?
I say, 'you know why the hell didn't you speak to him about this?
It was your job, you know?
It was your job, you know?
You're his father, you have to be a role model.
You're his father, you have to be a role model.
'.
'.
And the man sort of defensively says, I've been a role model.
And the man sort of defensively says, I've been a role model.
And I say, No, you haven't.
And I say, No, you haven't.
When have you talked to him about?
When have you talked to him about?
And he says, What you mean sex?
And he says, What you mean sex?
I said, Not about sex, about all of it, about what it feels like to be rejected by a woman, you know, heartbreak, all the sensitive conversations that actually go into making the man.
I said, Not about sex, about all of it, about what it feels like to be rejected by a woman, you know, heartbreak, all the sensitive conversations that actually go into making the man.
And then the husband just says, I can't, I don't know how to talk about it.
And then the husband just says, I can't, I don't know how to talk about it.
Men of my generation, we didn't talk about it like this.
Men of my generation, we didn't talk about it like this.
We didn't talk about this.
We didn't talk about this.
I mean, it's a really important I mean, I was living it so I can feel, you know, my character's anger at the point, but I can see that the whole scene was actually very touching really because it's a man admitting that he.
I mean, it's a really important I mean, I was living it so I can feel, you know, my character's anger at the point, but I can see that the whole scene was actually very touching really because it's a man admitting that he.
That he failed his son really, um.
That he failed his son really, um.
But you know, you never know when the right time is to have a conversation.
But you know, you never know when the right time is to have a conversation.
or how to say it right.
or how to say it right.
how to say it right.
how to say it right.
No, I mean there should be more, you know, more.
No, I mean there should be more, you know, more.
you know, and maybe the text play will talk yes books or men you know who are male role models, and I do believe that boys, you know, they... I think boys well, this is my personal belief, not not you know, I'm no psychologist, but I feel that boys really need their mums from like age naught to seven, then they really need their dads from like seven to fourteen.
you know, and maybe the text play will talk yes books or men you know who are male role models, and I do believe that boys, you know, they... I think boys well, this is my personal belief, not not you know, I'm no psychologist, but I feel that boys really need their mums from like age naught to seven, then they really need their dads from like seven to fourteen.
And then I think they really need the influence of another man, of a man outside the family.
And then I think they really need the influence of another man, of a man outside the family.
From fourteen, I think they need a role model that's closer in age to them, who can give them, who they can maybe have conversations with, make mistakes, not feel judged by.
From fourteen, I think they need a role model that's closer in age to them, who can give them, who they can maybe have conversations with, make mistakes, not feel judged by.
And I, you know, I've always tried to.
And I, you know, I've always tried to.
Expose my children to other male examples who I think are good, positive.
Expose my children to other male examples who I think are good, positive.
Now my older son is 14, so it's a very crucial time.
Now my older son is 14, so it's a very crucial time.
But I think when I've been lucky enough to work with young actors in their 20s who are naturally more emotionally.
But I think when I've been lucky enough to work with young actors in their 20s who are naturally more emotionally.
Open men, I suppose.
Open men, I suppose.
I've always encouraged my boys to hang out with them, you know?
I've always encouraged my boys to hang out with them, you know?
Whether it's just playing football or table tennis, or... But they get a sort of sense of another version of masculinity that isn't a teacher and isn't their dad.
Whether it's just playing football or table tennis, or... But they get a sort of sense of another version of masculinity that isn't a teacher and isn't their dad.
in the modern age.
in the modern age.
and in the modern age exactly who's closer to them?
and in the modern age exactly who's closer to them?
So yeah.
So yeah.
so I learn a lot from you.
so I learn a lot from you.
Do you?
Do you?
I never thought I know everything right.
I never thought I know everything right.
That's... that's interesting.
That's... that's interesting.
I think when you feel that you have a strong moral compass, I think it gives you something that you feel you feel solid and secure.
I think when you feel that you have a strong moral compass, I think it gives you something that you feel you feel solid and secure.
It's like with martial arts, right?
It's like with martial arts, right?
The aim of... I remember going when I was in Tianjin with my children.
The aim of... I remember going when I was in Tianjin with my children.
We went to a kung fu school, a wushu school, and.
We went to a kung fu school, a wushu school, and.
The line that really struck me was the aim of martial arts is peace.
The line that really struck me was the aim of martial arts is peace.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, when you know your own strength.
You know, when you know your own strength.
Yeah, and when you know your own strength and you feel confident that you've built your body and you're strong and you can hurt somebody, you don't hurt someone.
Yeah, and when you know your own strength and you feel confident that you've built your body and you're strong and you can hurt somebody, you don't hurt someone.
And I think it's a bit the same with morality and with being a good man.
And I think it's a bit the same with morality and with being a good man.
If you know.
If you know.
That you feel confident in your relationship with women, then you will be.
That you feel confident in your relationship with women, then you will be.
It gives you a sort of self-confidence, self-confidence exactly.
It gives you a sort of self-confidence, self-confidence exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And my boy does the u as well.
And my boy does the u as well.
Really?
Really?
Well, I think it gives boys... I think it gives boys a lot of.
Well, I think it gives boys... I think it gives boys a lot of.
And of course, it's great focus.
And of course, it's great focus.
That's the thing I love about watching it, yeah?
That's the thing I love about watching it, yeah?
Because I feel.
Because I feel.
And when I see Western kids do it, they never have quite the same total immersion in the body that Chinese children have.
And when I see Western kids do it, they never have quite the same total immersion in the body that Chinese children have.
Different training.
Different training.
mind training.
mind training.
Yeah, it's the mind training that I because it's so similar to what I have to do.
Yeah, it's the mind training that I because it's so similar to what I have to do.
I find it very fascinating.
I find it very fascinating.
You have to completely immerse in yourself and be able to operate with, you know, when you're filming, for instance.
You have to completely immerse in yourself and be able to operate with, you know, when you're filming, for instance.
You have to be able to have somebody fiddle with your clothes or touch your hair, but you have to remain completely in your head space.
You have to be able to have somebody fiddle with your clothes or touch your hair, but you have to remain completely in your head space.
Nowadays we said this, so this patriarchy for women it could be something internalized, like we could reach the same position as men in our jobs, in any you know the professions, like at home, so in the family.
Nowadays we said this, so this patriarchy for women it could be something internalized, like we could reach the same position as men in our jobs, in any you know the professions, like at home, so in the family.
You have some like works that you do, but you don't really see it.
You have some like works that you do, but you don't really see it.
So for example, like cooking or try to make everybody happy.
So for example, like cooking or try to make everybody happy.
Notice in Chinese we say it's so invisible in labor.
Notice in Chinese we say it's so invisible in labor.
And do you think that sometimes we just internalize this kind of authority?
And do you think that sometimes we just internalize this kind of authority?
I mean, so the patriarchy that we have some kind of self-guilty, not satisfied with ourselves.
I mean, so the patriarchy that we have some kind of self-guilty, not satisfied with ourselves.
It's interesting, I don't know where that comes from.
It's interesting, I don't know where that comes from.
The women's feeling of not feeling good enough.
The women's feeling of not feeling good enough.
I mean, there are more women, I think, who recognize that sentiment than men.
I mean, there are more women, I think, who recognize that sentiment than men.
Um.
Um.
And women feeling that probably a sort of internal pressure that if we're going to work and be successful, we need to sort of pay for that success by being extra brilliant at home.
And women feeling that probably a sort of internal pressure that if we're going to work and be successful, we need to sort of pay for that success by being extra brilliant at home.
I think that is that you're right.
I think that is that you're right.
It's a sort of internalized guilt of the sort of legacy of a patriarchal society where the woman is expected to.
It's a sort of internalized guilt of the sort of legacy of a patriarchal society where the woman is expected to.
Hold everything together at home.
Hold everything together at home.
And I think it'll take us a very long time to unlearn that.
And I think it'll take us a very long time to unlearn that.
I've never really analyzed it, but I think I also feel that it's particularly tough on women who were raised with sexist fathers.
I've never really analyzed it, but I think I also feel that it's particularly tough on women who were raised with sexist fathers.
My dad was very open and always very warm and not a sexist man at all, but I feel that.
My dad was very open and always very warm and not a sexist man at all, but I feel that.
That women who were raised with sexist fathers, um, and who witnessed that it's particularly hard on them, I think, um.
That women who were raised with sexist fathers, um, and who witnessed that it's particularly hard on them, I think, um.
Because all the pressures, all the internal pressures on a woman is also coupled with a tremendous pressure on appearance and femininity as well, you know?
Because all the pressures, all the internal pressures on a woman is also coupled with a tremendous pressure on appearance and femininity as well, you know?
Yeah, um... And I was lucky that my dad was always very.
Yeah, um... And I was lucky that my dad was always very.
sort of.
sort of.
Loving and not judgmental about appearance, you know?
Loving and not judgmental about appearance, you know?
I think there are many men who are very judgmental about appearance, and that's yet another pressure on women.
I think there are many men who are very judgmental about appearance, and that's yet another pressure on women.
And it comes from a fear of judgment by other women, perhaps.
And it comes from a fear of judgment by other women, perhaps.
You know, it's like in British press, for instance.
You know, it's like in British press, for instance.
This is a slight tangent, but you know we have some of our papers who whenever they.
This is a slight tangent, but you know we have some of our papers who whenever they.
Reporter story they'll talk about.
Reporter story they'll talk about.
THE MAN WHO' EVER IN THE STORY, AND THE WOMAN THIRTYsix, OR THE WOMAN FORTY- two, THEY' AL always putUT THE woman'S ageGE, AND WOM GET REALLY outragedED ABOUT IT, AND THEY SAY IT'S SO sexX.
THE MAN WHO' EVER IN THE STORY, AND THE WOMAN THIRTYsix, OR THE WOMAN FORTY- two, THEY' AL always putUT THE woman'S ageGE, AND WOM GET REALLY outragedED ABOUT IT, AND THEY SAY IT'S SO sexX.
WHY DO THEY NEVER putUT THE AGE OF THE MAN?
WHY DO THEY NEVER putUT THE AGE OF THE MAN?
AND THEY AL alwaysS putUT AN ageGE OF THE WOMAN?
AND THEY AL alwaysS putUT AN ageGE OF THE WOMAN?
IT'S NOT TO DO WITH THE MEN.
IT'S NOT TO DO WITH THE MEN.
THE MEN DON' careE HOW OLD THE WOMEN ARE.
THE MEN DON' careE HOW OLD THE WOMEN ARE.
IT'S ALL TO DO WITH O otherER WOMEN.
IT'S ALL TO DO WITH O otherER WOMEN.
IT' OTHER W women WHO WANT TO KNOW HOW OLD AN another woman IS.
IT' OTHER W women WHO WANT TO KNOW HOW OLD AN another woman IS.
It's women comparing themselves to others.
It's women comparing themselves to others.
It's they want to see how old a woman is so they can think, oh she doesn't look so good or I look better than that or they can judge.
It's they want to see how old a woman is so they can think, oh she doesn't look so good or I look better than that or they can judge.
Yeah, they can judge.
Yeah, they can judge.
And it's so interesting that a man doesn't actually care.
And it's so interesting that a man doesn't actually care.
About the age of the woman, it's so we also have that when we talk about and when we're you know being critical of the patriarchy, we also have to talk about where we don't support one another.
About the age of the woman, it's so we also have that when we talk about and when we're you know being critical of the patriarchy, we also have to talk about where we don't support one another.
Yeah, we have a word for that.
Yeah, we have a word for that.
So in Chinese, you do it's a female competition, something like that.
So in Chinese, you do it's a female competition, something like that.
It's a competition among ourselves.
It's a competition among ourselves.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But and I think.
But and I think.
In the law, that all the judges I spoke to, there is a really supportive culture, but they did mention that there are women in the legal system that mostly people who I didn't actually meet because they weren't considered so useful for this character, but who are more competitive with other women.
In the law, that all the judges I spoke to, there is a really supportive culture, but they did mention that there are women in the legal system that mostly people who I didn't actually meet because they weren't considered so useful for this character, but who are more competitive with other women.
So that exists in the law too, that there is a culture of women who have got there and they feel that they've maybe got there when the times were even tougher for a woman and they're certainly not going to help another woman get there.
So that exists in the law too, that there is a culture of women who have got there and they feel that they've maybe got there when the times were even tougher for a woman and they're certainly not going to help another woman get there.
So like another line I like the most from the place when she was singing in sort of karaoke, she said it's the eager to be my to be me.
So like another line I like the most from the place when she was singing in sort of karaoke, she said it's the eager to be my to be me.
Oh, so the desire to be me.
Oh, so the desire to be me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's for us, I think.
That's for us, I think.
Do you do karaoke?
Do you do karaoke?
I'm very bad singer, not like you.
I'm very bad singer, not like you.
So your mother is an opera singer.
So your mother is an opera singer.
but I don't sing because of that.
but I don't sing because of that.
I never sung it.
I never sung it.
It was a huge exposing thing for me to sing on stage.
It was a huge exposing thing for me to sing on stage.
It was my worst nightmare.
It was my worst nightmare.
I have terrible voice for singing.
I have terrible voice for singing.
so karaoke doesn't matter because everybody, you know.
so karaoke doesn't matter because everybody, you know.
But I had some help from my mom because I thought this is I have never sung, I've never wanted to sing, I don't think I have a good voice.
But I had some help from my mom because I thought this is I have never sung, I've never wanted to sing, I don't think I have a good voice.
But the music director came up to me in rehearsal and he said, and I could see him coming over to me and I thought, oh no, we've got to have that conversation.
But the music director came up to me in rehearsal and he said, and I could see him coming over to me and I thought, oh no, we've got to have that conversation.
He said, so how do you feel about karaoke?
He said, so how do you feel about karaoke?
I said not, not good, not good.
I said not, not good, not good.
But you really have the most beautiful voice.
But you really have the most beautiful voice.
No, it's not, it's not true, it's not true.
No, it's not, it's not true, it's not true.
But well, now you are doing the self beauty.
But well, now you are doing the self beauty.
Now I'm doing the self criticizing.
Now I'm doing the self criticizing.
Okay, thanks.
Okay, thanks.
I have a great voice.
I have a great voice.
Sure, you don't have to be grateful.
Sure, you don't have to be grateful.
And what draws you back to the stage after ten years?
And what draws you back to the stage after ten years?
I mean, you have been already so successful in movies.
I mean, you have been already so successful in movies.
It's the fact that you can conjure something immediate with an audience, you can... um.
It's the fact that you can conjure something immediate with an audience, you can... um.
You have an emotional, real human experience with a different audience every night, whether they're laughing, whether they're crying, whether they're just feeling connection.
You have an emotional, real human experience with a different audience every night, whether they're laughing, whether they're crying, whether they're just feeling connection.
And then at stage door, when I would go out after the show, when you do a play like this and people feel... When you meet them afterwards, everything comes out.
And then at stage door, when I would go out after the show, when you do a play like this and people feel... When you meet them afterwards, everything comes out.
That's true.
That's true.
Sometimes more personal things than you would normally have with a stranger.
Sometimes more personal things than you would normally have with a stranger.
Another Chinese girl came and she said, um.
Another Chinese girl came and she said, um.
She said she'd always felt undervalued by her parents, and she said, 'you know this play I feel that it makes me feel that I can be who I am.
She said she'd always felt undervalued by her parents, and she said, 'you know this play I feel that it makes me feel that I can be who I am.
' And I've always felt that whatever I did, my parents were never impressed.
' And I've always felt that whatever I did, my parents were never impressed.
And that's the best part of your job actually.
And that's the best part of your job actually.
It's kind of open up the hearts.
It's kind of open up the hearts.
and it does open up the heart, and you have these interactions with strangers.
and it does open up the heart, and you have these interactions with strangers.
That are not ever on the surface, in fact it's always... But you take on a lot of people's emotion as well.
That are not ever on the surface, in fact it's always... But you take on a lot of people's emotion as well.
So a bit like we've... I know we have a shared connection with you know you've worked in war zones and... And um... And I played a war reporter, but you take on people's stories and yes.
So a bit like we've... I know we have a shared connection with you know you've worked in war zones and... And um... And I played a war reporter, but you take on people's stories and yes.
And you don't know where to put them.
And you don't know where to put them.
The body on a physical chemical level takes the other people's pain in.
The body on a physical chemical level takes the other people's pain in.
but you have the stage and I have stories we can tell, tell the others.
but you have the stage and I have stories we can tell, tell the others.
Yes, yes, that's where we take the story to exactly.
Yes, yes, that's where we take the story to exactly.
exactly.
exactly.
And sometimes when somebody told me a story.
And sometimes when somebody told me a story.
At stage door or somebody, you know, particularly came to me and said there was one night a girl said that she had been a victim of sexual assault and that she had had a very tough time in court.
At stage door or somebody, you know, particularly came to me and said there was one night a girl said that she had been a victim of sexual assault and that she had had a very tough time in court.
So the next night when I was creating the first scene and I have to create the girl who's in the witness on the witness stand.
So the next night when I was creating the first scene and I have to create the girl who's in the witness on the witness stand.
I imagined the woman at the stage door the night before, you know?
I imagined the woman at the stage door the night before, you know?
So sometimes you take little bits and you keep changing it because you have to keep your mind alive when you're doing a play like that.
So sometimes you take little bits and you keep changing it because you have to keep your mind alive when you're doing a play like that.
I ended up getting a map backstage and putting pins in it because I realized people were coming to see this play from all over the world, even countries, you know, people from Russia who famously have an amazing theater scene, right?
I ended up getting a map backstage and putting pins in it because I realized people were coming to see this play from all over the world, even countries, you know, people from Russia who famously have an amazing theater scene, right?
WERE COMING TO SEE OUR PLAY BECAUSE THEY FELT THAT THERE WAS NOTHING THAT SPOKE TO THE CONTEMPORARY EXPERIENCE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY, PEOPLE FROM SERBIA, PEOPLE FROM CHINA, PEOPLE FROM SOUTH AMERICA, PEOPLE FROM CANADA, PEOPLE FROM AFRICA, AND THAT'S WHAT'S ENCOURAGING ME TO DO IT AGAIN BECAUSE I REALIZE THERE IS SUCH AN APPETITE FOR.
WERE COMING TO SEE OUR PLAY BECAUSE THEY FELT THAT THERE WAS NOTHING THAT SPOKE TO THE CONTEMPORARY EXPERIENCE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY, PEOPLE FROM SERBIA, PEOPLE FROM CHINA, PEOPLE FROM SOUTH AMERICA, PEOPLE FROM CANADA, PEOPLE FROM AFRICA, AND THAT'S WHAT'S ENCOURAGING ME TO DO IT AGAIN BECAUSE I REALIZE THERE IS SUCH AN APPETITE FOR.
FOR CONTEMPORARY STORIES.
FOR CONTEMPORARY STORIES.
THAT'S A PANIER STORY.
THAT'S A PANIER STORY.
I GUESS SO.
I GUESS SO.
I GUESS SO.
I GUESS SO.
I HOPE THAT.
I HOPE THAT.
I mean, I know that there was a Chinese production of Prima Facie.
I mean, I know that there was a Chinese production of Prima Facie.
I would love if there is a Chinese production of this, I will travel and see it.
I would love if there is a Chinese production of this, I will travel and see it.
I will try to picture who would it be.
I will try to picture who would it be.
I would love to see.
I would love to see.
an actress and I would love to see another actress play it.
an actress and I would love to see another actress play it.
It's not easy, it's not easy because you have to.
It's not easy, it's not easy because you have to.
You have to carry your audience with you, you have to.
You have to carry your audience with you, you have to.
They're your best friend.
They're your best friend.
They're your... It's like the way Susie writes.
They're your... It's like the way Susie writes.
You have to make a friend of the audience.
You have to make a friend of the audience.
I see.
I see.
I'm letting you in on a secret.
I'm letting you in on a secret.
You see?
You see?
The thing is, come with me, come and see what this is.
The thing is, come with me, come and see what this is.
You know, it's that you have to.
You know, it's that you have to.
You're showing the audience.
You're showing the audience.
You see?
You see?
I said that, but really.
I said that, but really.
Listen, it was like that.
Listen, it was like that.
It's like the audience is your best friend and you're telling them a secret every night.
It's like the audience is your best friend and you're telling them a secret every night.
I fear growing old.
I fear growing old.
But then I also fear dying young.
But then I also fear dying young.
I'm most happy with a vodka martini in my hand, but I can't.
I'm most happy with a vodka martini in my hand, but I can't.
Stand the fact that the chatter in my head won't go quiet.
Stand the fact that the chatter in my head won't go quiet.
UNTIL THERE'S A QUARTER OF VODKA INSIDE ME.
UNTIL THERE'S A QUARTER OF VODKA INSIDE ME.
I hate being in a war zone.
I hate being in a war zone.
But I also feel compelled.
But I also feel compelled.
Compelled to see it for myself.
Compelled to see it for myself.
and when you talk about this film, so a private war, it's very close to my heart because I have a yeah experience, yeah history as a war correspondent.
and when you talk about this film, so a private war, it's very close to my heart because I have a yeah experience, yeah history as a war correspondent.
Shame that I never met so Marine Corbin, but when I look back, it could happen that we were at the same location around the same time 2011.
Shame that I never met so Marine Corbin, but when I look back, it could happen that we were at the same location around the same time 2011.
I was in Libya.
I was in Libya.
Yeah, I met Jeremy Boying from BBC, so I met him there.
Yeah, I met Jeremy Boying from BBC, so I met him there.
So she was there with him.
So she was there with him.
Yeah, yeah, around the same time, I guess.
Yeah, yeah, around the same time, I guess.
So yeah, but I didn't go to Syria because I was pregnant.
So yeah, but I didn't go to Syria because I was pregnant.
I well... Yes.
I well... Yes.
then when you had your child, did you stop?
then when you had your child, did you stop?
I still went back to different places, but not to extreme to the war zones.
I still went back to different places, but not to extreme to the war zones.
Yeah, I feel like I have to be responsible.
Yeah, I feel like I have to be responsible.
So yeah.
So yeah.
Yes, I know what you mean.
Yes, I know what you mean.
I mean, I do some work for a landmine charity.
I mean, I do some work for a landmine charity.
Since playing Marie Colvin, I've become an ambassador for a charity that's clearing the world of landmines.
Since playing Marie Colvin, I've become an ambassador for a charity that's clearing the world of landmines.
It's called the Mines Advisory Group, MAG.
It's called the Mines Advisory Group, MAG.
And maybe two years ago, I was due to go to Kiev.
And maybe two years ago, I was due to go to Kiev.
And I was telling my children that I was going to go with Mag and my son, we were in a restaurant and he went to the bathroom and when he came back, he wouldn't eat his food and I said, are you okay?
And I was telling my children that I was going to go with Mag and my son, we were in a restaurant and he went to the bathroom and when he came back, he wouldn't eat his food and I said, are you okay?
He said, I've got a tummy ache.
He said, I've got a tummy ache.
And I said, is it because of what I said about going to Ukraine?
And I said, is it because of what I said about going to Ukraine?
And he just said yes, I don't want you to go.
And he just said yes, I don't want you to go.
When was that?
When was that?
That was maybe two years ago.
That was maybe two years ago.
and the war already started.
and the war already started.
Yes, yes, and... and he was very aware of it.
Yes, yes, and... and he was very aware of it.
And... and it was... it was when you know that they were starting to do operations to you know clear some unexploded ordinance in Kiev.
And... and it was... it was when you know that they were starting to do operations to you know clear some unexploded ordinance in Kiev.
But anyway, I didn't go.
But anyway, I didn't go.
I respected him, but not every woman has that choice, obviously.
I respected him, but not every woman has that choice, obviously.
So I still remember the day when I go into the cinema to watch this film, so a private war with some hesitation.
So I still remember the day when I go into the cinema to watch this film, so a private war with some hesitation.
On one hand, I wanted to see a female war correspondent on the big screen; on the other hand, I was worried that I'm going to see something like.
On one hand, I wanted to see a female war correspondent on the big screen; on the other hand, I was worried that I'm going to see something like.
So, so the Hollywoodized war correspondent, you know?
So, so the Hollywoodized war correspondent, you know?
But I have to say you did a very good job and you played it so convincing.
But I have to say you did a very good job and you played it so convincing.
And how can you transform yourself into her?
And how can you transform yourself into her?
I mean, the one... I mean, so the way she talks, she walks, and even this mixture of fear and passion, you know, and the madness.
I mean, the one... I mean, so the way she talks, she walks, and even this mixture of fear and passion, you know, and the madness.
I'm quite familiar with that.
I'm quite familiar with that.
So how could you make it?
So how could you make it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It took its toll on me that film.
It took its toll on me that film.
She got very deep inside me, that Marie, because I wanted to do justice to her, and I knew that our director was actually a documentary filmmaker, and I knew that really he would love to make a documentary about Marie, but of course she tragically died.
She got very deep inside me, that Marie, because I wanted to do justice to her, and I knew that our director was actually a documentary filmmaker, and I knew that really he would love to make a documentary about Marie, but of course she tragically died.
AND SO HE WAS MAKING THIS FILM FOR HER MEMORY, BUT HE WANTED TO OPERATE AS IF WE WERE MAKING A DOCUMENTARY.
AND SO HE WAS MAKING THIS FILM FOR HER MEMORY, BUT HE WANTED TO OPERATE AS IF WE WERE MAKING A DOCUMENTARY.
SO I KNEW THAT I HAD TO BE... I KIND OF HAD TO BE INSIDE HER BECAUSE I THOUGHT HE MIGHT TURN THE CAMERA ON AT ANY MOMENT WHEN WE WERE TRAVELING IN A CAR, AND HE DID.
SO I KNEW THAT I HAD TO BE... I KIND OF HAD TO BE INSIDE HER BECAUSE I THOUGHT HE MIGHT TURN THE CAMERA ON AT ANY MOMENT WHEN WE WERE TRAVELING IN A CAR, AND HE DID.
AND FOR INSTANCE, HE SET UP WE FILMED IN JORDAN.
AND FOR INSTANCE, HE SET UP WE FILMED IN JORDAN.
But whenever we were we used Jordan to be Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan.
But whenever we were we used Jordan to be Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan.
They look similar.
They look similar.
And Libya.
And Libya.
But whenever we filmed Jordan standing in for those countries, he used the background cast were refugees from those countries currently living in Jordan.
But whenever we filmed Jordan standing in for those countries, he used the background cast were refugees from those countries currently living in Jordan.
So for instance, when Marie was interviewing a basement of women and children in Syria, they were all Syrian women with their children, and I think the line was completely blurred.
So for instance, when Marie was interviewing a basement of women and children in Syria, they were all Syrian women with their children, and I think the line was completely blurred.
I do not think these women knew that I was not a real journalist.
I do not think these women knew that I was not a real journalist.
So there was a film crew, obviously, but a very small one, and they just were asked to tell their story.
So there was a film crew, obviously, but a very small one, and they just were asked to tell their story.
So it was not scripted; it was this woman's story.
So it was not scripted; it was this woman's story.
So when she was talking about her child who didn't speak, and after... yeah, I think at the age of four or something still had not spoken, or from the age of... I can't quite remember now, but just suddenly went silent.
So when she was talking about her child who didn't speak, and after... yeah, I think at the age of four or something still had not spoken, or from the age of... I can't quite remember now, but just suddenly went silent.
This was this woman's real story, and she was giving that story to me and entrusting me to tell it to the world because I think she believed I was a journalist.
This was this woman's real story, and she was giving that story to me and entrusting me to tell it to the world because I think she believed I was a journalist.
I had by that time watched Marie so much, taken on all her mannerisms and obviously her voice.
I had by that time watched Marie so much, taken on all her mannerisms and obviously her voice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
her voice.
her voice.
And our costume designer looked at all her clothes and we matched everything, the exact jacket she wore, because she wore this very nice jacket over her leather jacket was something like Prada or something.
And our costume designer looked at all her clothes and we matched everything, the exact jacket she wore, because she wore this very nice jacket over her leather jacket was something like Prada or something.
I mean, she took some, she always said, if my she said, she always said something like, if you know, if my body has to be pulled out of the rubble, I want to be looking.
I mean, she took some, she always said, if my she said, she always said something like, if you know, if my body has to be pulled out of the rubble, I want to be looking.
that's so interesting.
that's so interesting.
I mean, in the reality, we as female, you know, workers wonder, we do talk about fashion.
I mean, in the reality, we as female, you know, workers wonder, we do talk about fashion.
On the ground, sometimes we chat with about that.
On the ground, sometimes we chat with about that.
Yes, okay, please.
Yes, okay, please.
please.
please.
So I know they made that jacket to be, they copied it exactly.
So I know they made that jacket to be, they copied it exactly.
And obviously I worked with the eye patch, but actually when she finally went into Homs at the very end, she didn't wear the patch because they felt it would make her too recognizable.
And obviously I worked with the eye patch, but actually when she finally went into Homs at the very end, she didn't wear the patch because they felt it would make her too recognizable.
So that was interesting.
So that was interesting.
Then she had to have the actual eye exposed and I had to have a prosthetic, you know, to make the damaged eye.
Then she had to have the actual eye exposed and I had to have a prosthetic, you know, to make the damaged eye.
But I worked with a dancer actually.
But I worked with a dancer actually.
I have a colleague and a sort of close collaborator who's a dancer and she's always fantastic at helping me locate another character in my own body.
I have a colleague and a sort of close collaborator who's a dancer and she's always fantastic at helping me locate another character in my own body.
I find movement people, people who are expert in movement really helpful to my work.
I find movement people, people who are expert in movement really helpful to my work.
So she said, think about your back because when you're in a war zone.
So she said, think about your back because when you're in a war zone.
You are hyper aware of danger all around, which in our modern urban safe life I never have to worry about my back.
You are hyper aware of danger all around, which in our modern urban safe life I never have to worry about my back.
Really?
Really?
Yeah.
Yeah.
you probably can be familiar with that.
you probably can be familiar with that.
I know it is just an awareness.
I know it is just an awareness.
It is just taking your mind behind you.
It is just taking your mind behind you.
Sometimes the way you walk... Sometimes I walk with my cameraman back to back so that we can look after each other.
Sometimes the way you walk... Sometimes I walk with my cameraman back to back so that we can look after each other.
Yeah.
Yeah.
and Marie had.
and Marie had.
you know she had this quite tense body language, and I remember taking gaffer tape and taping around my shoulders because she used her hands a lot, but her elbows were always into her sides, a bit like a boxer, you know, keeps the arms close, so she would gesture, but and of course she smoked, I do not smoke, I had to learn to smoke.
you know she had this quite tense body language, and I remember taking gaffer tape and taping around my shoulders because she used her hands a lot, but her elbows were always into her sides, a bit like a boxer, you know, keeps the arms close, so she would gesture, but and of course she smoked, I do not smoke, I had to learn to smoke.
I had to learn to smoke and inhale, and then take a drink, and then breathe out afterwards, you know?
I had to learn to smoke and inhale, and then take a drink, and then breathe out afterwards, you know?
Like a real hardened smoker.
Like a real hardened smoker.
I hope it's not too unhealthy.
I hope it's not too unhealthy.
It was really unhealthy, but you... Yeah, and I mean, of course, I learned.
It was really unhealthy, but you... Yeah, and I mean, of course, I learned.
I was driving my car smoking.
I was driving my car smoking.
I wasn't experienced, of course, opened the window and all the ash blew back in my face.
I wasn't experienced, of course, opened the window and all the ash blew back in my face.
I mean, I was a real naive smoker.
I mean, I was a real naive smoker.
When you do the research about life of a female war correspondent, what surprised you the most?
When you do the research about life of a female war correspondent, what surprised you the most?
The one thing that people impressed upon me is don't make this the story of an adrenaline junkie.
The one thing that people impressed upon me is don't make this the story of an adrenaline junkie.
You know, don't make this about a woman who loves danger.
You know, don't make this about a woman who loves danger.
She's not a woman who loves danger.
She's not a woman who loves danger.
She's a woman who deeply respects danger and does it anyway.
She's a woman who deeply respects danger and does it anyway.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And is she.
And is she.
Is she frightened?
Is she frightened?
Yes, you have the fear, and then you take the step anyway.
Yes, you have the fear, and then you take the step anyway.
It's not about it's really not about somebody who has no fear.
It's not about it's really not about somebody who has no fear.
You said once that she's not fearless.
You said once that she's not fearless.
No, and I think that's what I learned.
No, and I think that's what I learned.
And maybe I expected her courageous.
And maybe I expected her courageous.
Yes, she has great courage.
Yes, she has great courage.
And I liked the fact that.
And I liked the fact that.
I mean, I think her humor was great and her.
I mean, I think her humor was great and her.
And I think I got a real sense of how.
And I think I got a real sense of how.
You know, when you're out in a war zone, the little victories, like find, I remember she talked about finding an egg.
You know, when you're out in a war zone, the little victories, like find, I remember she talked about finding an egg.
One day she found an egg and that egg became the most precious thing.
One day she found an egg and that egg became the most precious thing.
And then, you know, her cameraman kept trying to take the egg.
And then, you know, her cameraman kept trying to take the egg.
She's like, you're not having my egg.
She's like, you're not having my egg.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They don't know when they're going to get to cook it or eat it, but she had an egg.
They don't know when they're going to get to cook it or eat it, but she had an egg.
You're right, it's kind of small, you know, the victories.
You're right, it's kind of small, you know, the victories.
I feel that way too.
I feel that way too.
I could manage.
I could manage.
you know.
you know.
Did you have a story like an egg?
Did you have a story like an egg?
Different things.
Different things.
I, yeah, fake chops on passport, whatever.
I, yeah, fake chops on passport, whatever.
Right, yeah, sure.
Right, yeah, sure.
Stuff like that.
Stuff like that.
You could manage it.
You could manage it.
you know, getting across a border.
you know, getting across a border.
Yeah, all this and pretend that me and so my camera are we are from one family, we are.
Yeah, all this and pretend that me and so my camera are we are from one family, we are.
I SO remember that was in Bahharin when there was a protest, and the J journalists are not allowed to go in.
I SO remember that was in Bahharin when there was a protest, and the J journalists are not allowed to go in.
that was during SO Arab SP, which just went from E Egypt.
that was during SO Arab SP, which just went from E Egypt.
so to Bahin, and they said it's close to the press.
so to Bahin, and they said it's close to the press.
Then we just leave the big cameraA so in the airport, and we and we carry a small like so a family one.
Then we just leave the big cameraA so in the airport, and we and we carry a small like so a family one.
We went there to pretend we are a couple.
We went there to pretend we are a couple.
We just so we just come here for H honeymoonMO, you know, like we got lost.
We just so we just come here for H honeymoonMO, you know, like we got lost.
what and what happened.
what and what happened.
Somebody our friends are waiting, and they let you over.
Somebody our friends are waiting, and they let you over.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We were the we among the first ones who landed.
We were the we among the first ones who landed.
Wow!
Wow!
So yeah, you're right.
So yeah, you're right.
This kind of excitement that you can manage crisis.
This kind of excitement that you can manage crisis.
But that one... So so you mentioned with the Syrian woman, that thing stayed with me because that moment when you know Marie like talked to to women there.
But that one... So so you mentioned with the Syrian woman, that thing stayed with me because that moment when you know Marie like talked to to women there.
She got moved, touched, you know?
She got moved, touched, you know?
It's the moment she also show sort of vulnerability.
It's the moment she also show sort of vulnerability.
I mean, because in my career, I once got criticized by a male correspondent who said I'm too soft, too soft, too soft, which means I always focus on human stories.
I mean, because in my career, I once got criticized by a male correspondent who said I'm too soft, too soft, too soft, which means I always focus on human stories.
So no matter which side they take, you know, I always try to show.
So no matter which side they take, you know, I always try to show.
So the human level of the story.
So the human level of the story.
But I think what he said is, you know, critical and for me it sounded a bit gendered, you know?
But I think what he said is, you know, critical and for me it sounded a bit gendered, you know?
Absolutely, yeah.
Absolutely, yeah.
And it is gendered to say that your empathy makes you soft.
And it is gendered to say that your empathy makes you soft.
It's probably a fear in that man.
It's probably a fear in that man.
It made him feel uncomfortable, so he needed to attack it, right?
It made him feel uncomfortable, so he needed to attack it, right?
Because it's something.
Because it's something.
He doesn't have, um... And I think Marie always wanted to you know show the tragedy of war on a civilian level.
He doesn't have, um... And I think Marie always wanted to you know show the tragedy of war on a civilian level.
I mean she worked for The Sunday Times which was a weekly paper so she could go into depth and she had time to research a long story and she wanted to convey always what war was doing to ordinary people.
I mean she worked for The Sunday Times which was a weekly paper so she could go into depth and she had time to research a long story and she wanted to convey always what war was doing to ordinary people.
AND PARTICULARLY EXPOSE GOVERNMENTS WHO WERE LYING AND SAYING, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ONLY GOING AFTER MILITARY TARGETS.
AND PARTICULARLY EXPOSE GOVERNMENTS WHO WERE LYING AND SAYING, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ONLY GOING AFTER MILITARY TARGETS.
AND CLEARLY THEY WEREN'T.
AND CLEARLY THEY WEREN'T.
CLEARLY THERE WERE HUMAN CIVILIAN, SORRY NOT HUMAN CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.
CLEARLY THERE WERE HUMAN CIVILIAN, SORRY NOT HUMAN CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.
UM BUT YOU KNOW MARIE WAS ALSO THE ONE WHO GOT THE AUDIENCE WITH GADDAFI.
UM BUT YOU KNOW MARIE WAS ALSO THE ONE WHO GOT THE AUDIENCE WITH GADDAFI.
YOU KNOW SHE WAS ALSO HER VULNERABILITY OR HER SENSITIVITY ALSO MEANT THAT SHE COULD GET HER WAY IN TO TALK.
YOU KNOW SHE WAS ALSO HER VULNERABILITY OR HER SENSITIVITY ALSO MEANT THAT SHE COULD GET HER WAY IN TO TALK.
SHE WAS WITH ARAFAT ON HIS BUS, ON HIS PLANE.
SHE WAS WITH ARAFAT ON HIS BUS, ON HIS PLANE.
UM.
UM.
So if that's where empathy gets you, then I say good, good, good for you guys, you know?
So if that's where empathy gets you, then I say good, good, good for you guys, you know?
Because it can take, it can open doors.
Because it can take, it can open doors.
And I think with judges, it's very interesting because one thing I have remarked on sitting in courtrooms watching judges is how much dignity a good judge will give everybody, including the man or woman, but I've only seen men at the moment accused.
And I think with judges, it's very interesting because one thing I have remarked on sitting in courtrooms watching judges is how much dignity a good judge will give everybody, including the man or woman, but I've only seen men at the moment accused.
That the person, the idea that in the British court you are innocent until you're proven guilty, that really holds.
That the person, the idea that in the British court you are innocent until you're proven guilty, that really holds.
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