vol.59｜普通人如何像马斯克一样成为亿万富翁？｜电动EmmaX《马斯克原理》作者Eric Jorgenson

欢迎来到新浪新闻出品的赛博对话，我是今天的主持电动艾玛。

欢迎来到新浪新闻出品的赛博对话，我是今天的主持电动艾玛。

我今天要对谈的这位重磅嘉宾，曾经出过一本畅销书《纳瓦尔宝典》。

我今天要对谈的这位重磅嘉宾，曾经出过一本畅销书《纳瓦尔宝典》。

最近呢，他又研究起了马斯克，出了这本《马斯克原理》。

最近呢，他又研究起了马斯克，出了这本《马斯克原理》。

这本书已经成为美国很多大咖名流的枕边书，包括纳瓦尔本人、Mr.

这本书已经成为美国很多大咖名流的枕边书，包括纳瓦尔本人、Mr.

Beast、Ivanka Trump都是这本书的粉丝。

Beast、Ivanka Trump都是这本书的粉丝。

我马上就要连线这位作者，跟他一起聊聊，到底我们普通人能够从马斯克、纳瓦尔身上学到什么，用到自己的生活里。

我马上就要连线这位作者，跟他一起聊聊，到底我们普通人能够从马斯克、纳瓦尔身上学到什么，用到自己的生活里。

Eric, it's great to have you on our show.

Eric, it's great to have you on our show.

In every episode I talk about or quote Elon and Naval, so you can imagine how much I enjoy reading your books.

In every episode I talk about or quote Elon and Naval, so you can imagine how much I enjoy reading your books.

Yeah, we were destined to meet uh as as fans of Elon and Naval.

Yeah, we were destined to meet uh as as fans of Elon and Naval.

Yep.

Yep.

So in this book there are many great quotes from Elon, but personally for you, which is your favorite quote from Elon?

So in this book there are many great quotes from Elon, but personally for you, which is your favorite quote from Elon?

I love just the feel the fear and do it anyway.

I love just the feel the fear and do it anyway.

Let the importance of your mission compel you forward no matter how small the chance of success.

Let the importance of your mission compel you forward no matter how small the chance of success.

I think that is just such a.

I think that is just such a.

useful and inspiring thing, no matter who you are and what you're working on.

useful and inspiring thing, no matter who you are and what you're working on.

we all know elon has achieved some impossible things.

we all know elon has achieved some impossible things.

and it's also impossible for us to replicate his success.

and it's also impossible for us to replicate his success.

but what's the most important thing about elon that you think we should all learn from?

but what's the most important thing about elon that you think we should all learn from?

in one word, i think it's courage to go after some of these seemingly impossible things.

in one word, i think it's courage to go after some of these seemingly impossible things.

we're surrounded by the impossible of the past, and it's easy to take that for granted.

we're surrounded by the impossible of the past, and it's easy to take that for granted.

but i think the reason we're also inspired by him and follow him is he's just got this track record of consistently sort of dragging the impossible into the possible.

but i think the reason we're also inspired by him and follow him is he's just got this track record of consistently sort of dragging the impossible into the possible.

but in his own words, he said he actually feels fear more than a lot of people.

but in his own words, he said he actually feels fear more than a lot of people.

why do you think he feels that fear and still?

why do you think he feels that fear and still?

able to push through and be so courageous.

able to push through and be so courageous.

Yeah, I think he's a really driven person.

Yeah, I think he's a really driven person.

I mean, he has been his entire life.

I mean, he has been his entire life.

I think that's part of it.

I think that's part of it.

I think another part of it is that he chooses missions that are so important that it feels impossible to him to quit.

I think another part of it is that he chooses missions that are so important that it feels impossible to him to quit.

That's an underrated piece of it.

That's an underrated piece of it.

Like, it it really changed how I think about what I work on.

Like, it it really changed how I think about what I work on.

Like, if you can imagine quitting something, should you even start it?

Like, if you can imagine quitting something, should you even start it?

So apart from being courageous and being fearless, if I'm telling you, Eric, now I want to be as similar to Elon Musk as possible, what are some of the mindsets and habits I have to adopt straight away?

So apart from being courageous and being fearless, if I'm telling you, Eric, now I want to be as similar to Elon Musk as possible, what are some of the mindsets and habits I have to adopt straight away?

I think you have to.

I think you have to.

operate very quickly.

operate very quickly.

i think you have to work fast.

i think you have to work fast.

i think you have to work hard.

i think you have to work hard.

but before that, it becomes the problem selection, your mission selection.

but before that, it becomes the problem selection, your mission selection.

what are you choosing to work on?

what are you choosing to work on?

i think selecting the mission first and then looking at how you attack that mission, it's not just make a better rocket.

i think selecting the mission first and then looking at how you attack that mission, it's not just make a better rocket.

it is the biggest rocket that's ever been built that is reusable.

it is the biggest rocket that's ever been built that is reusable.

so he doesn't go after incremental.

so he doesn't go after incremental.

improvements.

improvements.

he goes after the best solution he can possibly imagine and then sort of like questions every obstacle towards that best possible solution.

he goes after the best solution he can possibly imagine and then sort of like questions every obstacle towards that best possible solution.

and i think that's a really powerful way to think.

and i think that's a really powerful way to think.

and then after that, you get to the kind of, okay, now we have to be smart, hardworking engineers who move really quickly.

and then after that, you get to the kind of, okay, now we have to be smart, hardworking engineers who move really quickly.

but a lot of people skip straight to the like, well, i can't work, you know, i don't want to work 100 hour weeks.

but a lot of people skip straight to the like, well, i can't work, you know, i don't want to work 100 hour weeks.

and it's like, well, if you were pursuing one of the most important missions like you could ever conceive of, and you came up with this really inspiring possible solution, and you saw a clear path to doing it, and you were surrounded by the smartest people on earth, and you had a really short deadline, then maybe you would be working 100 hours a week and be really excited about it.

and it's like, well, if you were pursuing one of the most important missions like you could ever conceive of, and you came up with this really inspiring possible solution, and you saw a clear path to doing it, and you were surrounded by the smartest people on earth, and you had a really short deadline, then maybe you would be working 100 hours a week and be really excited about it.

i think elon has a very crazy relationship with time and tasks.

i think elon has a very crazy relationship with time and tasks.

you know, i think you mentioned in chris williamson's podcast that warren buffett famously said, you cannot have a baby in one month by getting nine women pregnant, meaning that it's not a good idea to multitask and it's not a good idea to be impatient.

you know, i think you mentioned in chris williamson's podcast that warren buffett famously said, you cannot have a baby in one month by getting nine women pregnant, meaning that it's not a good idea to multitask and it's not a good idea to be impatient.

but look at what elon has done.

but look at what elon has done.

this is exactly how he tries to do all his things.

this is exactly how he tries to do all his things.

how do you think he can be so productive?

how do you think he can be so productive?

at this point, he's surrounded by, you know, hundreds of the smartest and hardest working people alive, right?

at this point, he's surrounded by, you know, hundreds of the smartest and hardest working people alive, right?

so it's very difficult to compare yourself now to where elon is after, you know, 40 years of compounding effort and results.

so it's very difficult to compare yourself now to where elon is after, you know, 40 years of compounding effort and results.

but i think if you look back at where he was in the early days of tesla or spacex as an entrepreneur and just refine your own unique comparison to kind of where elon was.

but i think if you look back at where he was in the early days of tesla or spacex as an entrepreneur and just refine your own unique comparison to kind of where elon was.

You can still learn from his playbook and his mode of operating, right?

You can still learn from his playbook and his mode of operating, right?

It's an inspiration to us to continue to compound long after, you know, he was able to retire when he was, I don't know, 25 and just like kept building companies for the next 30 years that are bigger and bigger and have a grander scope of ambition.

It's an inspiration to us to continue to compound long after, you know, he was able to retire when he was, I don't know, 25 and just like kept building companies for the next 30 years that are bigger and bigger and have a grander scope of ambition.

When I met Elon in person, I feel that.

When I met Elon in person, I feel that.

There's a lot of pain in him, which makes me wonder the way he looks at the past.

There's a lot of pain in him, which makes me wonder the way he looks at the past.

He thinks the past is unbearable, it's painful.

He thinks the past is unbearable, it's painful.

He thinks the present is not good enough, and that's why he focuses a lot on creating a better future.

He thinks the present is not good enough, and that's why he focuses a lot on creating a better future.

Do you think someone with a happier childhood, someone who enjoys the present more, will have the same sense of urgency as he does?

Do you think someone with a happier childhood, someone who enjoys the present more, will have the same sense of urgency as he does?

I think he is an outlier.

I think he is an outlier.

It's impossible to know how much of that comes from, you know, a difficult childhood.

It's impossible to know how much of that comes from, you know, a difficult childhood.

And I do think a lot of that comes from having a.

And I do think a lot of that comes from having a.

you know, a violent and difficult childhood and very demanding father who put that voice in his head.

you know, a violent and difficult childhood and very demanding father who put that voice in his head.

but i think, you know, i'm inspired by that also.

but i think, you know, i'm inspired by that also.

how impressive to transform something that could have ruined your life into something that makes you, you know, a once in a generation talent and turn it into something that's so positive.

how impressive to transform something that could have ruined your life into something that makes you, you know, a once in a generation talent and turn it into something that's so positive.

i don't think you should necessarily have to torture yourself to be successful or to contribute to these missions.

i don't think you should necessarily have to torture yourself to be successful or to contribute to these missions.

i think a lot of the people that work on spacex or tesla are.

i think a lot of the people that work on spacex or tesla are.

Wonderfully happy people.

Wonderfully happy people.

I think like Gwen Shotwell, absolutely instrumental to SpaceX success.

I think like Gwen Shotwell, absolutely instrumental to SpaceX success.

And she had a lovely childhood and seems very happy and peaceful and excited to just be doing what she's doing.

And she had a lovely childhood and seems very happy and peaceful and excited to just be doing what she's doing.

But I think a lot of his drive and the pace comes from dissatisfaction.

But I think a lot of his drive and the pace comes from dissatisfaction.

Patience is a virtue is a common saying, but I also think in, you know, science and engineering and entrepreneurship, impatience is a virtue.

Patience is a virtue is a common saying, but I also think in, you know, science and engineering and entrepreneurship, impatience is a virtue.

The speed of these companies is actually a really important recipe for a piece of their success.

The speed of these companies is actually a really important recipe for a piece of their success.

so from what you said, i hear, you know, the sense of urgency, the sort of intensity that elon has, just this fearless mindset, this courageous, fearless mindset, and also taking very big quests.

so from what you said, i hear, you know, the sense of urgency, the sort of intensity that elon has, just this fearless mindset, this courageous, fearless mindset, and also taking very big quests.

what else makes elon very special?

what else makes elon very special?

the length of his view, his ability to look really, really far into the future and work on these projects in great earnest that sound like, you know, they come from a sci-fi book that are, you know, 50 and 100 year projects.

the length of his view, his ability to look really, really far into the future and work on these projects in great earnest that sound like, you know, they come from a sci-fi book that are, you know, 50 and 100 year projects.

i think he's bringing attention back into the physical world of the manufacturing and robotics.

i think he's bringing attention back into the physical world of the manufacturing and robotics.

and like the scale of the problems itself is very, very inspiring.

and like the scale of the problems itself is very, very inspiring.

and that's part of what made me want to write the book.

and that's part of what made me want to write the book.

and i'm sure what made you want to write your book.

and i'm sure what made you want to write your book.

when i was writing my book on elon, what i found most fascinating about him is how deeply he understands and appreciates china.

when i was writing my book on elon, what i found most fascinating about him is how deeply he understands and appreciates china.

more than any american entrepreneur.

more than any american entrepreneur.

he doesn't just go around telling people how great china is and how smart and hardworking chinese people are.

he doesn't just go around telling people how great china is and how smart and hardworking chinese people are.

there's something very chinese about him, about the way he does things.

there's something very chinese about him, about the way he does things.

if you look at all the other american tech companies, google, facebook, or apple, they have a sort of garage, you know, college dorm ethos to it.

if you look at all the other american tech companies, google, facebook, or apple, they have a sort of garage, you know, college dorm ethos to it.

the organization is flat.

the organization is flat.

they focus on innovation.

they focus on innovation.

the working environment is pretty friendly, happy.

the working environment is pretty friendly, happy.

and also, they're obsessed with monopoly.

and also, they're obsessed with monopoly.

they want to keep their product price, their service price high, constantly high.

they want to keep their product price, their service price high, constantly high.

they're not really interested in driving price down.

they're not really interested in driving price down.

now, if you look at tech companies in china, probably best embodied by huawei, the culture is tough but great.

now, if you look at tech companies in china, probably best embodied by huawei, the culture is tough but great.

they function as a special force.

they function as a special force.

it's like an army, you know, forging through.

it's like an army, you know, forging through.

So it's very top down, it's highly disciplined, and it's ruthlessly efficient.

So it's very top down, it's highly disciplined, and it's ruthlessly efficient.

That resonates a lot with, you know, Elon's ways of doing things.

That resonates a lot with, you know, Elon's ways of doing things.

And also all Chinese tech companies are very price sensitive.

And also all Chinese tech companies are very price sensitive.

We're constantly trying to drive costs down.

We're constantly trying to drive costs down.

And, um, so you can see Elon is probably the only American entrepreneur that fuses these two worlds so well.

And, um, so you can see Elon is probably the only American entrepreneur that fuses these two worlds so well.

You can see the best elements from both worlds in Elon's companies.

You can see the best elements from both worlds in Elon's companies.

And I think that is incredible for an American to do.

And I think that is incredible for an American to do.

And that also probably explains why uh Tesla is the only foreign car company that is able to build and sell cars in China without having to partner with a Chinese car company.

And that also probably explains why uh Tesla is the only foreign car company that is able to build and sell cars in China without having to partner with a Chinese car company.

I was gonna ask if you thought that that culture was a big part of why that agreement was so unique and able to be reached.

I was gonna ask if you thought that that culture was a big part of why that agreement was so unique and able to be reached.

Mhm.

Mhm.

I think there's that.

I think there's that.

And also people think Elon is very smart but not a very social person.

And also people think Elon is very smart but not a very social person.

But I've seen how he deals with government people in China.

But I've seen how he deals with government people in China.

I'm so impressed.

I'm so impressed.

We were in an event and there were these Chinese government people speaking and it's Chinese first and then it's translated into English simultaneously.

We were in an event and there were these Chinese government people speaking and it's Chinese first and then it's translated into English simultaneously.

We're all kind of looking at our phone, playing with our phone.

We're all kind of looking at our phone, playing with our phone.

There's only Elon who was listening so attentively even to the Chinese bit.

There's only Elon who was listening so attentively even to the Chinese bit.

And we all know how much he hates sitting in a meeting.

And we all know how much he hates sitting in a meeting.

But in things like this, he knows the importance of it.

But in things like this, he knows the importance of it.

Yeah, that's which has been an incredible benefit, I think, to both China and and Tesla.

Yeah, that's which has been an incredible benefit, I think, to both China and and Tesla.

i think you pointed out a really important thing there, which makes elon unique in the u.

i think you pointed out a really important thing there, which makes elon unique in the u.

s.

s.

tech landscape, which is also that he is intent on building all of his own things.

tech landscape, which is also that he is intent on building all of his own things.

like he will go build his own factory and manufacture where so many of the other tech giants are just focused on sort of outsourcing the manufacturing, the actual creation.

like he will go build his own factory and manufacture where so many of the other tech giants are just focused on sort of outsourcing the manufacturing, the actual creation.

they just design the product and market it.

they just design the product and market it.

as he points out, it's just so much harder to build.

as he points out, it's just so much harder to build.

and as china knows well, it's so much harder to build these things.

and as china knows well, it's so much harder to build these things.

than to merely design them, that that's where so much of the benefit comes from to the customer in the long run is manufacturing at huge scale and driving down prices.

than to merely design them, that that's where so much of the benefit comes from to the customer in the long run is manufacturing at huge scale and driving down prices.

one critique that people have for this book is that it's all about praising elon, but we all know every advantage there's a dark side to it.

one critique that people have for this book is that it's all about praising elon, but we all know every advantage there's a dark side to it.

and i think probably contrary to naval, we feel like naval kind of masters the game of life and elon masters the game of.

and i think probably contrary to naval, we feel like naval kind of masters the game of life and elon masters the game of.

changing the world.

changing the world.

naval feels more like, you know, still water, deep and peaceful, and it's easier for everyone to like him, whereas elon feels like a raging fire.

naval feels more like, you know, still water, deep and peaceful, and it's easier for everyone to like him, whereas elon feels like a raging fire.

do you see the contradictory sides for both characters?

do you see the contradictory sides for both characters?

and, you know, which bits of elon and which bits of naval do you pick personally to help better yourself?

and, you know, which bits of elon and which bits of naval do you pick personally to help better yourself?

because they're very different people.

because they're very different people.

yeah, they're very different, and i'm inspired by them for a very different reason.

yeah, they're very different, and i'm inspired by them for a very different reason.

the parts of elon that i find inspiring are, you know, his courage, his vision, his dedication, his effort, his risk-taking ability, his engineering talent, his determination to never quit, the scale of the things that he goes after.

the parts of elon that i find inspiring are, you know, his courage, his vision, his dedication, his effort, his risk-taking ability, his engineering talent, his determination to never quit, the scale of the things that he goes after.

i think all of those are incredible.

i think all of those are incredible.

and anything that i disagree with him on doesn't take away from, you know, those attributes.

and anything that i disagree with him on doesn't take away from, you know, those attributes.

and on naval, i think, you know, before he became focused on happiness and philosophy, he was a very intense, hard-driving, tortured entrepreneur, right?

and on naval, i think, you know, before he became focused on happiness and philosophy, he was a very intense, hard-driving, tortured entrepreneur, right?

he was similar to musk now for decades before.

he was similar to musk now for decades before.

and he really realized that about himself and then focused very hard on... developing the skill and the practice of happiness.

and he really realized that about himself and then focused very hard on... developing the skill and the practice of happiness.

and i don't know that elon will ever do that.

and i don't know that elon will ever do that.

and that's okay.

and that's okay.

like he doesn't have to.

like he doesn't have to.

it's not, you know, i'm not judging him for that.

it's not, you know, i'm not judging him for that.

and i think you can sort of feel drawn more to one or the other of these people at different times in your life or for different reasons in your life.

and i think you can sort of feel drawn more to one or the other of these people at different times in your life or for different reasons in your life.

you know, in my 20s, i was very, you know, super hardworking, super focused.

you know, in my 20s, i was very, you know, super hardworking, super focused.

and maybe elon is a better sort of model for somebody who's really career and impact focused early in their life.

and maybe elon is a better sort of model for somebody who's really career and impact focused early in their life.

and maybe, you know, as you start to have kids or have a partner or become more family focused, you're like, oh, maybe or achieve all these things that you want to do achieve and find that they only partially fulfill you and you realize you want to.

and maybe, you know, as you start to have kids or have a partner or become more family focused, you're like, oh, maybe or achieve all these things that you want to do achieve and find that they only partially fulfill you and you realize you want to.

sort of work on this this softer inner side of, you know, your mind.

sort of work on this this softer inner side of, you know, your mind.

I think, you know, we are many, many people over the course of our lives and we're going to go uh learn things from many different kinds of models.

I think, you know, we are many, many people over the course of our lives and we're going to go uh learn things from many different kinds of models.

And, you know, I'm I'm no different and these people, you know, Elon and Naval and Balaji are no different.

And, you know, I'm I'm no different and these people, you know, Elon and Naval and Balaji are no different.

We're very similar on that front.

We're very similar on that front.

I think in my 20s, I admire Elon greatly, but now if I had to choose, I definitely would choose Naval's life.

I think in my 20s, I admire Elon greatly, but now if I had to choose, I definitely would choose Naval's life.

over elon's.

over elon's.

and it's funny how naval's podcast with you, he said for the longest time he tried to figure out how to be the most successful person while doing the least work.

and it's funny how naval's podcast with you, he said for the longest time he tried to figure out how to be the most successful person while doing the least work.

and elon is sort of the opposite.

and elon is sort of the opposite.

he tries to spend all his money and all of his time tackling the most difficult work.

he tries to spend all his money and all of his time tackling the most difficult work.

so i was just thinking, you know, when i was younger, i spent a year in france as an exchange student.

so i was just thinking, you know, when i was younger, i spent a year in france as an exchange student.

and there's a beautiful french saying.

and there's a beautiful french saying.

Le temps qu'on prend plaisir à perdre n'est pas du temps perdu.

Le temps qu'on prend plaisir à perdre n'est pas du temps perdu.

Meaning, if the time we waste brings us joy, the time is not wasted.

Meaning, if the time we waste brings us joy, the time is not wasted.

And that kind of mentality could occur in Naval's world, but I don't think it has a place in Elon's world at all.

And that kind of mentality could occur in Naval's world, but I don't think it has a place in Elon's world at all.

Yeah, I agree with that.

Yeah, I agree with that.

I don't think so.

I don't think so.

It's a very European saying.

It's a very European saying.

I think uh there's no wrong answer here, right?

I think uh there's no wrong answer here, right?

There's just who and what you want to be at any given time.

There's just who and what you want to be at any given time.

Elon is very.

Elon is very.

authentic in his dedication to these missions and the culture that he creates in these companies.

authentic in his dedication to these missions and the culture that he creates in these companies.

and for some chapter of their life, joining that culture, a lot of people will be more drawn to, you know, what's the most elegant solution, like naval puts out in some part of their life for all of their life.

and for some chapter of their life, joining that culture, a lot of people will be more drawn to, you know, what's the most elegant solution, like naval puts out in some part of their life for all of their life.

i think, you know, there's going to be a model out there for you.

i think, you know, there's going to be a model out there for you.

and my role is just to organize it well and make it accessible and useful.

and my role is just to organize it well and make it accessible and useful.

and in your book, you said you want to see 1 million masks in the next generation.

and in your book, you said you want to see 1 million masks in the next generation.

That's the dream for this book.

That's the dream for this book.

One million masks.

One million masks.

Are you sure?

Are you sure?

Because I'm not sure our world needs one million masks.

Because I'm not sure our world needs one million masks.

I think our world is probably a better place with one million novels.

I think our world is probably a better place with one million novels.

Because Elon is a very tough character.

Because Elon is a very tough character.

Tough how?

Tough how?

He's only made your life better, right?

He's only made your life better, right?

One million masks is not to say like a million car companies or a million space companies.

One million masks is not to say like a million car companies or a million space companies.

but this idea that one person can show up and start this snowball effect leads to adding this new capability to humanity that everybody thought was impossible and nobody else was paying attention to.

but this idea that one person can show up and start this snowball effect leads to adding this new capability to humanity that everybody thought was impossible and nobody else was paying attention to.

we can be working on lifespan.

we can be working on lifespan.

we can be working on weather control.

we can be working on weather control.

we can be working on flying cities.

we can be working on flying cities.

we can be working on lowering energy costs.

we can be working on lowering energy costs.

we can be working on decarbonization.

we can be working on decarbonization.

we can be curing cancer.

we can be curing cancer.

these are all things that are physically possible.

these are all things that are physically possible.

The mission of this book is to sort of lift people's gaze and open people's eyes and use Elon as an example of what's possible.

The mission of this book is to sort of lift people's gaze and open people's eyes and use Elon as an example of what's possible.

You too could become a trillionaire if you solve humanity's biggest problems and you know we have the tools and the blueprints to do that now.

You too could become a trillionaire if you solve humanity's biggest problems and you know we have the tools and the blueprints to do that now.

There's a funny saying, the difference between try and triumph is that oomph.

There's a funny saying, the difference between try and triumph is that oomph.

And I think your book is full of that oomph.

And I think your book is full of that oomph.

Yeah, I heard your your critique pre- earlier that it's um that it's very positive about him and I I agree.

Yeah, I heard your your critique pre- earlier that it's um that it's very positive about him and I I agree.

Like I think that's that was my goal, right?

Like I think that's that was my goal, right?

My goal was not to write a comprehensive biography that tells you.

My goal was not to write a comprehensive biography that tells you.

that tallies up all his good and all his bad and, you know, presents a character for the reader's judgment.

that tallies up all his good and all his bad and, you know, presents a character for the reader's judgment.

That's not what I'm trying to do at all.

That's not what I'm trying to do at all.

What I want is to empower the reader and inspire them and give them useful ideas that they can go apply.

What I want is to empower the reader and inspire them and give them useful ideas that they can go apply.

So for you personally, how has researching Musk changed the way you think and the way you act?

So for you personally, how has researching Musk changed the way you think and the way you act?

It really infused the fuzziness between the impossible and the possible.

It really infused the fuzziness between the impossible and the possible.

I think it gave me this really.

I think it gave me this really.

deep sense that the future is arriving ever faster.

deep sense that the future is arriving ever faster.

and that changed a lot of how i invest.

and that changed a lot of how i invest.

in my personal life, you know, it did make me probably more impatient in some good ways and some bad ways.

in my personal life, you know, it did make me probably more impatient in some good ways and some bad ways.

elon has taught me that everything i do is not difficult because when i have a bad day and i think, oh no, i'm trying to interview this person and i don't know anything about him.

elon has taught me that everything i do is not difficult because when i have a bad day and i think, oh no, i'm trying to interview this person and i don't know anything about him.

i don't have time to prep for it.

i don't have time to prep for it.

I watch a SpaceX video and I tell myself this is not rocket science.

I watch a SpaceX video and I tell myself this is not rocket science.

I'm not trying to launch a rocket.

I'm not trying to launch a rocket.

I'll be fine.

I'll be fine.

Yeah, and your entire, you know, you didn't bet 200 million dollars on the outcome of this, you know.

Yeah, and your entire, you know, you didn't bet 200 million dollars on the outcome of this, you know.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So you write books on Naval and Elon.

So you write books on Naval and Elon.

What makes you decide who to write?

What makes you decide who to write?

There are so many great people out there.

There are so many great people out there.

There are many great people out there.

There are many great people out there.

Um, both of these are people I'd followed for for years and years and years, maybe 10 years or more.

Um, both of these are people I'd followed for for years and years and years, maybe 10 years or more.

i felt like both of them were not going to write books on their own.

i felt like both of them were not going to write books on their own.

they were prolific online, but i felt like they had really timeless, really important wisdom that hadn't been captured in a permanent format, which is really what i think the power of books are.

they were prolific online, but i felt like they had really timeless, really important wisdom that hadn't been captured in a permanent format, which is really what i think the power of books are.

in both cases, they were understudied as life models, as somebody to sort of look up to and learn from.

in both cases, they were understudied as life models, as somebody to sort of look up to and learn from.

i think elon still, you know, for all the things that people talk about as being his, you know, this great entrepreneur, he's not really held up as much as like steve jobs was, for example, in terms of being wise almost.

i think elon still, you know, for all the things that people talk about as being his, you know, this great entrepreneur, he's not really held up as much as like steve jobs was, for example, in terms of being wise almost.

because he's not, he still kind of stutters when he speaks and he's not a polished speaker and he doesn't really write very often.

because he's not, he still kind of stutters when he speaks and he's not a polished speaker and he doesn't really write very often.

and he's still this kind of awkward engineer when he presents.

and he's still this kind of awkward engineer when he presents.

but i think these are really important and useful ideas that anybody on earth can benefit from learning and applying.

but i think these are really important and useful ideas that anybody on earth can benefit from learning and applying.

my hope is that it feels like you are sitting down to dinner with elon musk.

my hope is that it feels like you are sitting down to dinner with elon musk.

i love that.

i love that.

yeah.

yeah.

you have a very personal one-to-one kind of conversation and connection where you just get to ask all the questions that you wish you could ask.

you have a very personal one-to-one kind of conversation and connection where you just get to ask all the questions that you wish you could ask.

and he tells you, you know, all his stories.

and he tells you, you know, all his stories.

teaches you everything that he can about how to, you know, apply his ideas in your own life.

teaches you everything that he can about how to, you know, apply his ideas in your own life.

And better than that, I met Elon in person a few times and I know he's, he could be very moody.

And better than that, I met Elon in person a few times and I know he's, he could be very moody.

So this is the best version of Elon because it's not moody.

So this is the best version of Elon because it's not moody.

It's a little safe, it's a little safer.

It's a little safe, it's a little safer.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And you were saying how you went through, you know, his tweets, his public speeches and his biographies as well and things he said.

And you were saying how you went through, you know, his tweets, his public speeches and his biographies as well and things he said.

Out of all these sources, which source do you think gives you the best insight?

Out of all these sources, which source do you think gives you the best insight?

I love the interviews.

I love the interviews.

Um, in part because there are so many.

Um, in part because there are so many.

So my my process is all around or finding uh him in his own words.

So my my process is all around or finding uh him in his own words.

Interviews is him in his own words like 80, 90% of the time.

Interviews is him in his own words like 80, 90% of the time.

And there's such a breadth of interviews, right?

And there's such a breadth of interviews, right?

So an interview by, you know, a PhD level engineer with experience from NASA is going to ask very different questions about, you know, of him and elicit different responses than.

So an interview by, you know, a PhD level engineer with experience from NASA is going to ask very different questions about, you know, of him and elicit different responses than.

you know, when he's like having a beer with some dudes who don't really understand anything, but they're just curious about him.

you know, when he's like having a beer with some dudes who don't really understand anything, but they're just curious about him.

and both of those can provide really good and important things.

and both of those can provide really good and important things.

so i find interviews really great.

so i find interviews really great.

and a lot of times they're not famous interviews.

and a lot of times they're not famous interviews.

it's the long three or four hour interview he did with like a very nerdy blogger in 2018 that has like a lot of rich stuff in it that's not anywhere else because.

it's the long three or four hour interview he did with like a very nerdy blogger in 2018 that has like a lot of rich stuff in it that's not anywhere else because.

You know, he had a little bit more time or he was a little bit more open or that person asked, you know, those questions more earnestly or more deeply.

You know, he had a little bit more time or he was a little bit more open or that person asked, you know, those questions more earnestly or more deeply.

And it's just this really fun treasure hunt to like find things, these gems that are, you know, not necessarily.

And it's just this really fun treasure hunt to like find things, these gems that are, you know, not necessarily.

often repeated but really really useful.

often repeated but really really useful.

Like what?

Like what?

What's the most surprising find for you?

What's the most surprising find for you?

I'll share with you mine as well later on.

I'll share with you mine as well later on.

Oh, share yours.

Oh, share yours.

I like that's a hard question.

I like that's a hard question.

Okay.

Okay.

So a lot of people think Elon is this cutthroat, you know, very brutal person because of the way he treats people around him, especially his employees.

So a lot of people think Elon is this cutthroat, you know, very brutal person because of the way he treats people around him, especially his employees.

We hear a story about his long-term, you know, secretary.

We hear a story about his long-term, you know, secretary.

working for him for the longest time and then she wanted a raise in salary and he just fired her.

working for him for the longest time and then she wanted a raise in salary and he just fired her.

things like this and you think he's very cutthroat.

things like this and you think he's very cutthroat.

but the funny thing is when it comes to a specific person and when it comes to the present moment, elon can seem ruthless.

but the funny thing is when it comes to a specific person and when it comes to the present moment, elon can seem ruthless.

but when it comes to an abstract future and humanity as a whole, He is surprisingly romantic and heartwarming.

but when it comes to an abstract future and humanity as a whole, He is surprisingly romantic and heartwarming.

One thing he said before a very important rocket launch is, if this goes well, it will be epic, it will be historical, but if it blows up, then you will see the most beautiful, the biggest firework in human history.

One thing he said before a very important rocket launch is, if this goes well, it will be epic, it will be historical, but if it blows up, then you will see the most beautiful, the biggest firework in human history.

How romantic is that?

How romantic is that?

And also I think at one point he said his favorite quote was from Shakespeare.

And also I think at one point he said his favorite quote was from Shakespeare.

It was from Romeo and Juliet.

It was from Romeo and Juliet.

And the line goes, love devouring death.

And the line goes, love devouring death.

do what he dare, it is enough if i may call her mine.

do what he dare, it is enough if i may call her mine.

i mean, this really doesn't feel like a cutthroat businessman, a business icon's favorite quote.

i mean, this really doesn't feel like a cutthroat businessman, a business icon's favorite quote.

so i find that very interesting.

so i find that very interesting.

i just think he is such a complex and interesting soul.

i just think he is such a complex and interesting soul.

i think that's well spotted.

i think that's well spotted.

i think the difference between being very not empathetic at the level of the individual, but very empathetic and romantic at the level of the mission and like humanity collectively is a very... powerful and unique kind of trait of his.

i think the difference between being very not empathetic at the level of the individual, but very empathetic and romantic at the level of the mission and like humanity collectively is a very... powerful and unique kind of trait of his.

i think that's very well put.

i think that's very well put.

and i like identifying it as romantic.

and i like identifying it as romantic.

he just does everything that he does very intensely.

he just does everything that he does very intensely.

and so when he is kind of falling in love, he's like this incredible suitor and he's just obsessed with the woman.

and so when he is kind of falling in love, he's like this incredible suitor and he's just obsessed with the woman.

and like they spend all this time together and they travel all over the world together.

and like they spend all this time together and they travel all over the world together.

and like it's this very kind of like tumultuous high highs, low lows kind of relationships.

and like it's this very kind of like tumultuous high highs, low lows kind of relationships.

i think that's somewhat telling, right?

i think that's somewhat telling, right?

like he can love as intensely and just like switches very quickly.

like he can love as intensely and just like switches very quickly.

the other one that you reminded me of is i love his sense of humor.

the other one that you reminded me of is i love his sense of humor.

as a former teenage boy myself, like his nerdy gamer like teenager self is sort of still very much in there, even though he's like a 55 year old man now.

as a former teenage boy myself, like his nerdy gamer like teenager self is sort of still very much in there, even though he's like a 55 year old man now.

and that he just doesn't take himself too seriously and that he embeds that.

and that he just doesn't take himself too seriously and that he embeds that.

in the products, courageous and and fun and exciting.

in the products, courageous and and fun and exciting.

You know, these things that um that traditional auto companies would would never do, right?

You know, these things that um that traditional auto companies would would never do, right?

That put like a fart machine in in his like, you know, $70.

That put like a fart machine in in his like, you know, $70.

000 car.

000 car.

Did you look into Elon's school that he built for his kids?

Did you look into Elon's school that he built for his kids?

I remember reading a little bit about it, but I'm not a a deep expert in it.

I remember reading a little bit about it, but I'm not a a deep expert in it.

Did you study it?

Did you study it?

Yes, I did.

Yes, I did.

And uh the first chapter of my book was actually about that school.

And uh the first chapter of my book was actually about that school.

and i know you just had a child with your wife.

and i know you just had a child with your wife.

and so i was wondering, after researching elon, how would you raise your child differently?

and so i was wondering, after researching elon, how would you raise your child differently?

it gave me a much greater appreciation for the engineering skill set and the mathematical skill set.

it gave me a much greater appreciation for the engineering skill set and the mathematical skill set.

so as i think about raising my kid, i'm like, i'm not an engineer by training.

so as i think about raising my kid, i'm like, i'm not an engineer by training.

i'm okay at math, not great.

i'm okay at math, not great.

but i think one of the things that's amazing about elon and many of the entrepreneurs who i work with who i think are sort of on the path to having a similar impact is their fluency across a lot of different domains and that they're not just can do math, but like use it in daily life and speak very fluently.

but i think one of the things that's amazing about elon and many of the entrepreneurs who i work with who i think are sort of on the path to having a similar impact is their fluency across a lot of different domains and that they're not just can do math, but like use it in daily life and speak very fluently.

and they're like constantly running calculations and they can do napkin math very quickly in their heads to break down problems into.

and they're like constantly running calculations and they can do napkin math very quickly in their heads to break down problems into.

discrete solvable chunks and sort of.

discrete solvable chunks and sort of.

assess the feasibility of something very quickly.

assess the feasibility of something very quickly.

And so those are skills that I like really want to start early.

And so those are skills that I like really want to start early.

I think the Chinese education system is probably much, much better at teaching math than than the American.

I think the Chinese education system is probably much, much better at teaching math than than the American.

You want to raise your kids like the Chinese.

You want to raise your kids like the Chinese.

Yeah, because I think the engineering and entrepreneurial skill sets are very are universally needed.

Yeah, because I think the engineering and entrepreneurial skill sets are very are universally needed.

In Elon's school at Astra, um, there are a few subjects that are not taught.

In Elon's school at Astra, um, there are a few subjects that are not taught.

I don't know if you know, foreign languages are not taught.

I don't know if you know, foreign languages are not taught.

He thinks it's useless because.

He thinks it's useless because.

ai will be able to translate everything.

ai will be able to translate everything.

music is not taught.

music is not taught.

he thinks it's a hobby and not a subject.

he thinks it's a hobby and not a subject.

and pe is not available.

and pe is not available.

if you want to do a sport, do it, you know, off school.

if you want to do a sport, do it, you know, off school.

what do you think about that?

what do you think about that?

i love words.

i love words.

and so i do find it fascinating how language and thought interact.

and so i do find it fascinating how language and thought interact.

that like when you learn new words, you can think new thoughts.

that like when you learn new words, you can think new thoughts.

and when you find a culture with like a really robust language for describing a phenomenon, they really understand that phenomenon.

and when you find a culture with like a really robust language for describing a phenomenon, they really understand that phenomenon.

at a much deeper level than a culture without language to describe it.

at a much deeper level than a culture without language to describe it.