大卫·格兰：如何写出小说般精彩的非虚构作品 | 我的写作之道

他们说任何船只都不允许出海救援，我不知道他们这么做了，但他们说因为风浪太大不能离开。

They said no vessels are allowed to help, which I didn't know they did, but they said you can't leave because it's that rough.

外面风暴太猛烈了。

It's that stormy out there.

最终我们获得许可，悄悄驶离。

And then eventually, we got the clearance, and we slipped out.

起初我们沿着巴塔哥尼亚海岸的航道航行，避开大洋的风浪。

And initially, we kinda went in these channels along the coast of Patagonia shielded from the ocean.

感觉相当不错，相当安全。

It felt pretty good, pretty safe.

我的信心在逐渐增强。

My confidence was growing.

我们会停靠在这些小岛上，船长和一名船员会下船砍柴，用来生火保持船内温暖。

We would, stop on these little islets, and the captain and one of the crewmen would go off, and they would chop down wood for the stove to heat keep the vessel warm.

他们会用一根小软管从船上引到这些小岛上，接入冰川溪流中取水供船使用。

They would take a little hose and run it off the boat into these islands, these little islands, into the glacial streams to get water for the vessel.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我得说那是我洗过的最冷的冷水澡。

I will say it was the coldest shower I had ever, ever taken.

我是说，水冷得我觉得整个旅程可能只洗了一次澡。

I mean, was so cold that I think I I think I might have only taken one shower the whole time.

简直冷得要命。

It was it was just freezing.

但这样持续约一周后，船长说，如果我们想抵达瓦格岛——它位于一个被称为'悲伤湾'或有人译为'痛苦湾'的海湾中——嗯。

But and then after about a week of this, the captain says, you know, if we're gonna get to Wager Island, which is situated in a gulf known as the Gulf Of Sorrow, or as some translate it as the Gulf Of Pain Mhmm.

我们现在必须驶入大洋了。

We're gonna now have to go out into the ocean.

就在那时，我第一次瞥见了那些海域。

And that's when I got my first glimpse of those seas.

值得一提的是，这段旅程虽然书中只字未提，却为全书提供了全部背景。

And I will say what's also interesting about this journey is I don't write about any of it in the book, but it all informed it.

就这样，我第一次瞥见了这片海域。

And so I got my first glimpse of these seas.

我们甚至还没遇到大风暴，但海浪已经非常汹涌，狂风大作。

We weren't even in some huge storm, but the seas were pretty enormous, windy.

我们只能——我就那么坐在甲板上。

We just had I just sat on the deck of this vessel.

根本站不稳。

You could not stand.

要是站起来，你知道的，可能会撞坏东西，或者直接被甩飞。

If you stand, you would, you know, you might break something, you would get thrown.

各种东西被抛得到处都是。

Things were getting tossed all about.

我正坐着，突然一个舱底泵就从我头顶飞过。

I literally was sitting there, and a bilge pump just goes flying past my head.

我当时就想，好吧，还是老实坐着吧。

I'm like, Okay, just sit down.

我虽然习惯了海上生活，但还是准备了所有防晕船的东西。

I had taken I'm used to the sea, but I took everything to ward off seasickness.

我的意思是，我几乎被晕船药灌得半醉。

I mean, I was basically half drunk on Dramamine.

我戴了防晕手环。

I had the thing on the wrist.

还用了那种贴在耳后的药贴，就让它一直粘在那里。

I had the whatever the drugs you put up behind your ears and just kind of stay there.

最让我觉得好笑的是，我当时不知道如何打发时间，只能一直盯着舷窗外看，我觉得我快要吐了。

And the funny part that always amuses me is that I didn't know how to pass the time, and I just kept looking out the porthole, I think I'm going to throw up.

那我该怎么办呢？

So what am I going to do?

好在我iPhone里存了《白鲸记》的有声书。

And I had on my iPhone with me an audible of Moby Dick.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

于是我就戴上耳机开始听。

So I put into my earphones just to listen there.

我就这样坐在地板上听《白鲸记》，因为我在甲板上只能这样坐着，紧紧抓住东西稳住自己。

I'm sitting like this listening to Moby Dick on the floor because you you get I'm on the deck just sitting there like this bracing myself.

感觉就像被困在一个铁罐头里。

And it's like you're in a tin can.

整个人就这样晃来晃去。

You're just going like this.

我当时心想，天啊，这绝对是我读过最伟大的美国小说。

And I'm thinking, god, this is the greatest I think this is the greatest American novel I've ever read.

简直太精彩了。

This is just incredible.

最糟糕的小说，我是说最不适合听的有声书。

The worst novel, The worst novel to listen I was gonna say.

你知道，你听着亚哈船长带着这群可怜人追逐他偏执的执念。

You know, you're listening to you're listening to Ahab lead these these these poor people on his mono maniac obsession.

但我们的船长技术高超。

But our captain was skilled.

他当时穿着水手服，确实成功把我们带到了岛上。

He was in a habien, and he did manage to get us to the island.

去年我去了巴塔哥尼亚，当时正在查瓦格岛的位置。

Well, so last year, I went to Patagonia, and I was looking up where Wager Island was.

对。

Yeah.

它位于托拉德尔松斯以北一点。

It's a it's a little bit north of Tora Del Pines.

所以它确实是在海岸线上方。

So it's so it's decently up the coast.

就在巴塔哥尼亚顶端，我们那次旅行基本上就是去合恩角。

It's like right at the top of Patagonia, and we did a trip basically to the Cape.

是的。

Yep.

情况也差不多。

And it was the same sort of thing.

我们乘坐的船稍大些，但同样要穿越各种峡湾。

We you know, we're in a little bit of bigger ship, but we were going through all the inlets.

没错。

Yeah.

你知道的，你会读到关于那所学校的事。

You know, you'd read about the school.

哦，是啊。

Oh, yeah.

你知道的，水手们会沉下去。

You know, the sailors would go down.

船只也会相撞。

The ships would crash.

超级危险。

Super dangerous.

头几天，我们会穿过那些小海湾。

And the first few days, we'd go through the little inlets.

我就想，你在说什么呢？

I'm like, what are you talking about?

比如，平静的水面。

Like, calm waters.

我都可以在这上面滑水了，真的。

I'd go water skiing on this Yeah.

在这如镜的水面上。

On this glass.

然后到了第三还是第四天，他们说今晚要进入太平洋，可能会有点颠簸。

And then there was, like, our third or fourth day, and they said tonight, we're gonna go out into the Pacific, so it might get a little topsy-turvy.

但他们又说，今晚天气不错，

But they're like, it's good weather tonight,

所以

so

我们能行的。

we can do it.

我们吃完晚饭后，你知道的，我就去睡觉了。

And we finished dinner, and we you know, I go to sleep.

然后在凌晨两三点时，我被惊醒了，因为船突然发出砰砰砰的巨响。

And then at around two or three in the morning, I woke up because the ship was just boom, boom, boom, boom.

我醒了过来。

And I woke up.

我当时心想，天啊。

I was like, oh my goodness.

这就是我们在学校读到过的情景。

This is what we read about in school.

我要出去看看。

I'm gonna go outside.

于是我拿上东西，开始在船上走动，发现所有东西都翻倒了。

So I get my stuff, and I start walking around the boat, and everything has fallen over.

当时正值深夜，一片漆黑，浓雾弥漫。

And it is pitch black middle of the night, deep dense fog.

你根本看不到星星。

You not even close to seeing the stars.

我走到外面，打开门，然后说：不行。

And I go outside, open the door, and I go, nope.

我立刻把门关上了。

And I close it immediately.

我当时想，要是我出去，我就死定了。

I'm like, if I go outside, I will die.

是啊。

Yeah.

那我该怎么办？

So what do I do?

我上到第三或第四层甲板——你知道的，那基本上是个小型游轮，我当时在第三或第四层，大概50英尺高，每二三十秒就有巨浪拍打窗户，水花四溅。

I go up to the third or fourth Deck of you know, it was a small cruise basically, and I was on the third or fourth floor, probably 50 feet up, and every twenty to thirty seconds, the waves were so intense that the water would splash the window.

我告诉你，那一刻我终于明白为什么人们会崇拜弗朗西斯·德雷克爵士那样的人物。

And I'm telling you, in that moment, I understood why people revere someone like Sir Francis Drake.

没错。

Yeah.

那种勇气，那种敢于扬帆远航的胆识，我真是完全无法想象。

Like, the kind of courage, the audacity in order to go sail like that, I just had no idea.

而我当时真切感受到了那种震撼。

And I had that visceral sense of it.

从那一刻起，我就想，没错。

And from that, I'm like, yes.

这就是为什么你会沉沦——因为光靠阅读根本无法体会那种恐怖和畏惧。

That's why you would go down because there's no way that you can pick up on that by reading about it, the terror, the fear.

你必须亲身感受。

You have to feel it.

你必须亲眼目睹，这样才能更贴近你笔下的人物，真正理解他们。

You have to see it, And it just helps you get closer to the people you write about to understand them.

最令人惊叹的是，就我个人经历而言，我所目睹的风暴与海浪的狂暴程度，仅仅触及了那些水手们遭遇的冰山一角。

And you what's amazing is, like, in my own experience, I'm only glimpsing a fraction of the level of storm and sea and tumult that the seamen encountered.

因为他们遭遇的是合恩角完美风暴，那里的浪涛能轻易吞没90英尺高的桅杆，地球上最强劲的洋流在此肆虐。

Because they had come across Cape Horn in a the perfect hurricane, where they have waves that are dwarfing, you know, a 90 foot mast, the strongest currents on Earth.

他们甚至无法升起船帆。

Their sail they couldn't even fly their sails.

所有船帆都被狂风撕碎，船身倾斜达45度。

They had all blown out, and they were tipping 45 degrees.

我的意思是，船只正在分崩离析。

I mean, the ships were breaking apart.

这让你——恕我词穷——能产生某种情感共鸣。

I mean, it's just but but it allows you to have that kind of emotional connection, for lack of a better word.

最终我们确实抵达了那座岛屿。

And then eventually we did get to the island.

我们在近海抛锚停泊。

And we anchored off it.

然后换乘了小橡皮艇。

And then we took a little zodiac.

登上了岛屿。

And we went on the island.

即便是这样的小细节——我们讨论过很多关于研究的事。

And, you know, even just a small detail, we you know, we've talked a lot about research.

所以在他们的航海日志里，他们不断重复写着：太冷了。

So in their journals, they kept saying, it's cold.

天气很冷。

It's cold.

当时我在纽约，就直接把数据输入了电脑。

Now when I was sitting in New York, I just put it into my computer.

巴塔哥尼亚那个地区冬季的气温是多少？

What is the temperature in that part of Patagonia in wintertime?

对。

Yeah.

显示大约32度。

It said about 32.

我当时就说，好吧。

And I said, well, okay.

虽然冷，但还没到南极的程度。

That's cold, but it's not Antarctica.

但等我到了那里才发现，天啊，真的太冷了，因为每天都有时速25到30英里的海风直接吹向岛屿。

But then when I got there, I was like, oh, no, it's really cold, because it was blowing about 25 to 30 miles per hour off the ocean every day, just hitting the island.

而且不是下雨就是下冰雹。

It's also always raining or sleeting.

这时我突然意识到，最细微的事情是——他们全都得了低温症。

And so it suddenly occurred to me, the smallest thing was like, oh, they all had hypothermia.

这一点我完全没想到。

That had not even occurred to me.

我做了两年的研究。

For two years I was doing the research.

他们应该知道'低体温症'这个术语。

They would have known the term hypothermia.

就像，哦，那么低体温症会如何影响他们的决策能力呢？

Was like, oh, and then you have well, how would hypothermia affect their decision making?

所以，你知道，你正在获得这些微妙的转变和更深的理解，越来越接近你的研究材料。

So, you know, you're just getting these subtle shifts and deeper understandings, getting closer, to your material.

他们总是说，嗯，我们在那上面找不到任何食物。

They always said, well, we couldn't find any food on that.

我当时就想，哦，得了吧。

And I was like, oh, come on.

肯定有

There's gotta

些什么。

be something.

肯定有沃尔玛或者至少有个全食超市。

There's gotta be a Walmart or at least a Whole Foods.

是啊。

Yeah.

你总得在那儿弄点东西。

You gotta get something there.

等你到了那里，发现真的没有任何动物。

And and you get there, like, there really are no animals.

只有些飞来飞去的鸟，他们挖了些蛤蜊也耗尽了，仅此而已。

There's some birds that fly around, but and they had some clams they exhausted, but that was it.

他们那里有些芹菜，他们吃了治好了坏血病，我也尝过，但仅此而已。

They there was some celery, which they had eaten, which helped cure their scurvy, which I tasted, but that was really it.

你还谈到过在爬上船时理解海洋。

And, you talked about understanding the seas when you would climb the ship.

有位英国军官说过一句很经典的话，形容这座岛是个让人灵魂枯竭的地方。

And there was a great line from a British officer who had described the island as a place where the soul of man dies in him.

当我站在岛上时，我说：好吧，我明白为什么人的灵魂会在这里死去——此刻我就困在这座岛上。

And when I stood on that island, I said, Okay, I understand why the soul of a man would die, and I'm sitting here, trapped on this island.

然后我们谈到启示，对吧？

And then there was you know, we talk about revelation, right?

启示就是那种出人意料的惊喜。

Revelation is the surprise, the kind of unexpected.

我们在岛上时，船长曾指着一条溪流对我们说：来看看这里。

And so we're on that island, the captain at one point said to us pointed to a stream, and he said, you know, take a look over here.

水里有些木材，约五到七码长，都是粗大的木料。

And in that water was this timber, and they were about five or seven yards long, these thick pieces of timber.

它们没有钉子。

They didn't have nails.

虽然不见金属部件，但能看到是用圆形木栓（称为树钉）固定在一起的。

There was no metal in them, but you could see they were held together in these kind of round wooden pegs called tree nails.

这些都是十八世纪沉船的残骸，据信来自皇家舰艇'赌注号'。

And they are the remnants of an eighteenth century ship, believed to be from his majesty's ship, the wager.

这就是仅存的遗迹了。

And that was all that remained.

我是说，我一直盯着那块木头看，因为在那座岛上经历了所有那些激烈的斗争——政变、反政变、食人、谋杀，不止一起谋杀，然而最终剩下的只有这些。

I mean, I just kept staring at that wood because after all that ferocious struggle because on that island, there had been coup and counter coup and cannibalism and a murder and more than one murder, and and and yet that was all that remained from that ferocious struggle.

作家们对自己说的最大谎言就是：我待会儿会记住的。

The biggest lie that writers would tell themselves is, I'll remember that later.

不。

No.

我的意思是，很多时候我在听播客时想保存一些内容，但最终都没保存，因为用手机打字太麻烦了，你懂吗？

I mean, there's so many times when I'm listening to a podcast, I wanna save something, and I just never end up saving it cause typing it into the phone is just too much work, you know?

嗯，我找到了解决这个问题的好办法。

Well, I found a great solution to that problem.

它叫Podcast Magic，也是本期节目的赞助商。

It's called Podcast Magic and they're the sponsor of this episode.

操作超级简单。

So what you do, super easy.

假设你在苹果或Spotify上收听，如果听到对话中有你特别喜欢的内容，只需截个图，然后发邮件到podcastmagic@sublime.app。

Say you're listening on Apple or on Spotify, if you find a bit in this conversation that you really like, just take a screenshot of it and then email it to podcastmagic@sublime.app.

如果你在一分钟后发邮件，就会收到回复，里面有文字记录、上下文，以及你需要的所有信息。

If you email it like a minute later, you'll get an email back with the transcript, the context, all the information that you need.

这样你就不用记下所有内容了。

And then that way, you don't need to write down all the information.

所以如果你在对话中发现了喜欢的内容，不妨试试Podcast Magic。

So if you find something in the conversation that you really like, well, check out Podcast Magic.

好了。

Alright.

我们开始采访吧。

Let's get to the interview.

你知道，我们一直在讨论地点。

You know, we've been talking a lot about place.

是啊。

Yeah.

谈论人物，因为人物是这些故事的核心。

Talking about people, because people are so core to these stories.

你之前也稍微提到过关于人物描述的内容。

And you were talking about a little bit earlier with the descriptions of people.

当你思考如何拼凑角色，更具体地描述他们时，要让他们不是二维的，而是立体的。

And as you think about piecing together characters, and even more specifically describing them, turning them not turn them into the not two dimensional people, but three-dimensional ones.

我是说，我们真的了解拜伦上校这个人吗？

I mean, we can actually you know, captain Byron, like, do we really understand this guy?

你打算怎么做

How do you think about doing

呢？

that?

所以，这确实要从基础素材开始。

So, you know, it does begin with underlying material.

无论是文件、信件，还是你在尝试的新闻、非虚构或历史写作，你都是一个外部观察者。

Any documents, any letter, you're trying you know, journalism or nonfiction or history, you are a external observer.

好的。

Okay.

要知道，这和电影是不同的。

You know, it's different than a film.

我的故事曾被改编成电影。

I've had films made on my stories.

这是不一样的。

It's different.

你是内在的。

That you are internal.

你看，摄像机可能在外部，但演员们扮演这些人物，赋予他们生命，从内而外地演绎他们。

You know, the camera may be outside, but you have actors playing these people, animating them, playing them inside them.

作为非虚构作家，你做不到这点。

As a nonfiction writer, you can't do that.

我的意思是，除非你描述一个眨眼或一滴泪，否则你无法知道他们内心发生了什么。

I mean, you don't unless you described a wink or a tear, you don't know that happened to them.

所以你试图尽可能接近他们的意识。

So you're trying to get as close to their consciousness as possible.

在写作中。

In writing.

在写作中。

In writing.

你通过寻找每一片残页、每一封信、每一段文字、每一个观察来实现这点。

And you do that through finding every scrap, every letter, every piece of writing, every observation.

他们是在哪栋房子里长大的？

What house did they grow up on grow up in?

那栋房子看起来是什么样子的？

What did that house look like?

好的。

Okay.

也许亲戚们有没有写过关于他们的任何东西？

Maybe what did did did the relatives write anything about them?

他们的祖先是谁？

Who were their ancestors?

他们来自哪里？

Where did they come from?

他们的血统是什么？

What was their lineage?

他们属于什么阶级？

What was their class?

你正在尽最大努力去理解他们。

You are trying as best you can to understand them.

假设他们从事某个职业，其他人是如何描述这个职业的？

And let's say they're in a profession, how did other people describe that profession?

所以你正在尽可能学习一切知识来让他们栩栩如生。

So you're trying to learn everything you you possibly can to bring them to life.

我常说这份工作不是要浪漫化你描写的人物，也不是做圣徒传记，不是把人美化得比实际更好，不是掩饰他们的缺点或罪过。

And I always say that the job is not to romanticize the people you write about or to do hagiography, to make people seem better than they are, to gloss over their their their foibles or their sins.

同时你也在努力不要为他们开脱。

And you're also trying not to exculpate them.

你描写了一些非常恶劣的人，但你的目的并非为他们开脱。

You write about some really bad people, and you are not there to absolve them.

但你的职责是理解他们，并尽可能全面地展现他们。

But your job is to understand them and to show them as fully rendered as you can.

你会感到一种道德责任去书写他们，即便他们生活在三百年前，永远看不到你写的每一个字。

And you feel a certain moral responsibility to write about them even if it's three hundred years later than they lived, and you know they will never see a single word you write about them.

是啊。

Yeah.

如果你有一万种描述一个人的方式，一万个词汇，你会如何选择？

How do you think about if you have 10,000 descriptions of somebody, 10,000 words, how do you think about the ones that you choose?

你知道吗，我准备这次谈话时一直在想，现实主义与印象主义的区别是什么。我在想J.K.罗琳是怎么描写海格的。

You know, I was prepping for this, and I was thinking about what is the difference between realism and impressionistic, and I was like, I don't I I wonder how JK Rowling describes Hagrid.

于是我去翻看了原著，开头是这样写的。

And so I went and I pulled it out, and this is how it begins.

一个巨人般的男人站在门口。

A giant of a man was standing in the doorway.

他的脸几乎完全被蓬乱的长发和纠结的胡须遮住。

His face was almost completely hidden by a long shaggy mane of hair and a wild tangled beard.

但你能看见他的眼睛，像黑甲虫般在毛发间闪烁。

But you could make out his eyes, glinting like black beetles under all the hair.

我当时就想，哦，明白了。

And I was like, oh, okay.

这个描述相当不错。

That's pretty good description.

我们虽然没得到关于混合体的完整描述，但伙计，你能看出些端倪。

And we're not getting the whole description of hybrid, but, man, you can you can see what's going on.

这是有选择性的描述。

There's selective description.

是的。

Yes.

而且，你知道，这很有趣。

And and and, you know, it's funny.

你总是在寻找能切中要害的引文或短语，就像你在与人交谈时听到特别有意思的话一样。

You are always looking for the quote or the phrase that cuts to some essence or when you hear you know, it's not so different from when you when you're in a conversation with somebody and someone says something really interesting.

可能你们在晚餐时聊了很多，但大部分内容都会渐渐淡忘。

You may have been talking at a dinner, and much of it will just kind of fade away.

但你总会记住几个小片段。

But you will remember a couple little bits.

做研究时也是类似的。

And when you're doing research, it's not dissimilar.

比如说，你也会对人们的说话方式感兴趣，不仅是外貌描述。

And you're also, like, for example, whether it be a physical description, but I'm also even interested in the way people talk.

那么他们的措辞是怎样的？

So what is their diction?

他们的措辞会透露出某些特质。

Their diction reveals something about them.

可能反映出他们的教育水平，或是行为习惯。

It may reveal their level of education, may reveal their mannerism.

以及语速。

And Speed of speech.

速度。

Speed.

他们说话快吗？

Are they of quick talk?

所有这些揭示他们本质的小细节。

And so all these little bits that reveal the essence of who they are.

是的。

Yeah.

人们写过这些事情吗？

And people wrote about those things?

在某些情况下，确实可以通过书面媒介做到。

Well, you can so in some cases, it's through a written medium.

所以你是在观察他们的写作方式。

So you're looking at how they write.

例如，瓦格号上的炮手并非来自上流社会，他知道自己永远当不了船长，但他非常有文化素养。

So for example, the gunner on the wager who was not from the upper class, he knew he could never be a captain, and but he was very literate.

他对事件的描述在细节和深度上都是最出色的。

And he he has the best account of what happened in terms of the level of detail and depth.

他的写作风格反映了他的性格。

And he wrote the way his character is.

他没有采用18世纪大多数人的写作方式，因为当时能写作的人基本都来自...

He did not write the way most people wrote in the eighteenth century because most of the people wrote were all from the

上流社会。

Upper class.

贵族阶层，倾向于采用非常巴洛克式的风格，极其华丽繁复。

Aristocracy and tended to be a very Baroque kind of style, very ornate.

从某种程度上说，这种风格确实不太容易转化。

In a way, it really doesn't translate very well.

我是说，那个时期并没有太多杰出的文学作品。

I mean, not a lot of great writing for that period.

他的文风如子弹般凌厉。

He wrote like a bullet.

他写得像海明威一样。

He wrote like Hemingway.

他的写作方式就是直接行动，没有形容词，没有副词。

He wrote the way he was direct action, no adjectives, no adverbs.

所以你能从他那里感受到一些东西。

And so you you're getting something from him.

完全正确。

Totally.

是啊。

Yeah.

早些时候，你提到那些奇怪的词语组合。

Earlier, you were talking about these strange combination of words.

比如，你之前说的完美飓风。

Like, you were talking about the perfect hurricane.

是啊。

Yeah.

但我碰巧看到这个，在监狱里被捕的。

But I came across this one, arrested while in prison.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yes.

跟我说说这个。

Tell me about that.

嗯。

Yeah.

这是我们之前聊过的话题之一，想试着找个故事。

So that's one of those things we talked a little bit about trying to find a story.

你是怎么偶然发现这个的？

How do you come across one?

我以前经常看简报，尤其是当有很多地方报纸的时候。

And I used to always read the the briefs, especially when there were a lot of municipal newspapers.

可惜现在没那么多地方报纸了。

Unfortunately, are not as many of them.

你知道的，它们总会有个专栏专门做这种新闻摘要。

And you know, they would always have that column where they just do these little summaries of the news.

我记得当时正在浏览某份加州报纸的简报，读到了这个。

And I remember I was scanning the briefs in some California newspaper, and I was reading it.

它们通常只有一英寸长。

They're usually an inch.

通常就两句话那么长。

They're usually like two sentences.

我偶然看到一个描述雅利安兄弟会监狱帮派的故事。

And I came across a story that was describing the Aryan Brotherhood prison gag.

上面写着'这听起来很可怕'。

And it said That sounds terrifying.

他们确实很可怕。

They were terrifying.

上面还写着其中几个人'我可不想和这些家伙一起喝啤酒'。

And it said several of them had I do not wanna have a beer with those guys.

是啊。

Yeah.

他们可能比合恩角附近的海域还要恶劣。

They're they're they're probably worse than the seas around Cape Horn.

但无论如何，据说他们中有几个人在服刑期间被捕，有些头目还被单独监禁。

But in any case, they you know, it's said that several of them had been arrested while in prison, and some had been in solitary confinement, the leaders.

我当时就想，在监狱里被捕？

And I just thought, arrested while in prison?

这种怪异的词语组合，有点像我们讨论的那些你可能会在演讲中听到的细节。

That bizarro combination of words, you know, a little bit like the details we talk about that that you might hear in speech or something.

我就想到'在监狱里被捕'这个说法。

I just thought, arrested in prison.

逮捕？比如，谁会在已经坐牢的时候还被逮捕？

Arrest in like, who gets arrested while they're already in prison?

然后我开始觉得这就像是反义词。

Then I started It just feels like antonyms.

是啊。

Yeah.

接着我开始问自己一些基本问题。

And then I just started to ask myself some basic questions.

比如有些人当时被单独监禁。

Like and then some of them were in solitary confinement.

我就问，在单独监禁的情况下怎么运作帮派？

Said, so how do you even run a gang solitary?

如果你被单独关押，还怎么当帮派老大？

How can you be a gang leader if you're in solitary?

你们怎么沟通？

How do you communicate?

你的10是什么？

What is your 10?

于是所有这些问题开始浮现，但最初就是源于那个疑问。

And so all these questions started to emerge, but it just started from that.

我们讨论过是什么让你着迷？

We talked about what is it that seizes you?

就是那些话。

It was just those words.

我记得那篇文章大概有这么长，后来它引出了一个关于雅利安兄弟会的长篇报道和调查，那是最凶残的监狱帮派。

I remember that that's that article is about that long, and then it led to a very long story and investigation of the Aryan Brotherhood, the most murderous prison gang.

我们来聊聊这个吧。

Let's talk about this.

你想读读看吗？

Do you wanna read it?

或者你可以读，或者我来读。

Or You can read it, or I

都可以，随便。

can read it, whatever.

嗯。

Yeah.

想听你读。

Wanna hear you read it.

好的。

Okay.

没问题。

Sure.

五月里，当郊狼在异常巨大的月亮下嚎叫时，较高的植物如紫露草和黑心菊开始蔓延，遮蔽那些更小的花朵，夺走它们的光照和水分。

So, in May, when coyotes howl beneath an unnervingly large moon, taller plants such as spiderworts and black eyed Susans begin to creep over the tinier blooms, stealing their light and water.

小花的茎秆折断，花瓣飘落，不久后便被掩埋在地下。

The necks of the smaller flowers break and their petals flutter away, and before long, they are buried underground.

这就是奥色治印第安人称五月为'杀花月'的原因。

This is why the Osage Indians refer to May as the time of the flower killing moon.

老兄。

Man.

这里发生什么事了？

So what's going on here?

当你思考如何构建这样一段文字时，你是怎么想的？有哪些要素呢？是的。

How do you think about as you're thinking about constructing a paragraph like this, what are the elements Yeah.

你看到了吗？

That you see?

从很多方面来说，我认为这是对这本书以及我将要写的内容的一种隐喻。

So this, in many ways, I thought was a metaphor for the book and what I would be writing.

奥色治人用特定的月亮来命名每个月，在他们的传统中，五月被称为小花凋零之月，因为我描述过的那些美丽的小花会遍布草原。

The Osage name each month after a particular moon, and in the month of May, in their tradition, is this little flower killing moon because all these beautiful little flowers I described, they spread over the prairie.

它们看起来几乎像五彩纸屑，然后更高的植物会来抢夺它们的水分和阳光，它们便开始凋零。

They look almost like confetti, and then the taller plants come and steal their water and light, and they begin to die off.

而正是在五月，这场恐怖统治中的第一起谋杀案发生了。

And it's in the month of May when one of the first murders takes place, in this reign of terror.

这就是为什么我从五月开始写起，也是为什么我想描述这个月亮。

And so that is why I began, in May, and why I wanted to describe this moon.

我认为将你带入奥色治传统非常重要，因为这是一个关于奥色治人的故事。

And I thought it was very important to also anchor you in the Osage tradition since this is an Osage story.

是的。

Yeah.

跟我说说这些：蜘蛛疣、黑眼苏珊、大月亮、高大的植物、郊狼。

Tell me about this, the spider warts, the black eyed Susans, the large moon, the tall plants, the coyotes.

就像，如果你要圈出所有能看到的东西，你会怎么想：我是要画一幅画呢，还是随便分享些细节，确保充满象征意义，类似现实主义与印象主义的区别。

Like, if you were to almost circle all the things that you can see, how much do you think about this as I'm gonna paint a painting versus I'm just gonna, I don't know, share a few details and make sure that there's a bunch of symbolism, a kind of realism versus impressionism.

嗯，你在寻找那些最生动的语言，特别是这里，因为你正在描绘一个场景。

Well, you you're looking for some of the most, you know, the vivid language, especially here because you are painting a scene.

而且，我们之前稍微讨论过在监狱中被捕的情况。

And, you know, we talked a little bit about arrested while in prison.

有些特定的短语。

There are certain phrases.

我做研究时发现，有位出色的奥塞奇作家叫约翰·约瑟夫·马修斯，他对自然的描写简直出神入化。

And, when I was just doing the research, there's a wonderful Osage writer called John Joseph Matthews, and he really is an unbelievable describer of nature.

他有本书叫《会说话的月亮》，应该是这个名字，里面描述了这些月亮。

And he has a book called Talking Talking Moons, I believe it's called, where he describes these moons.

有些词语就是美得不可思议。

And there are certain words which were just so beautiful.

比如‘蜘蛛疣’，这个词本身。

So spider warts, it's just a word.

虽然只是个词，但‘黑眼苏珊’本身就很有画面感。

It's just but in itself is a it's just an evocative word, black eyed Susans.

我是说，命名者有时会起些绝妙的名称和描述，那些就是诗意的语言，就是它们的名字本身。

I mean, people who name things have sometimes they're wonderful names and descriptors, and so they're just poet it's just poetic language, and it's just their names.

但你知道，你也可以选些无聊或不生动的名字。

But, you know, you could have said such as, you know, you could pick some boring name or some non vivid name.

恰好是这些特定细节能构建画面，仅凭名称就具有力量。

It it so happens that those particular details create an image and have a power just in their very name.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，你知道，我们谈论场景设定，它会把你带入那片草原。

And also, you know, we talk about setting, and it brings you into the prairie.

它带你进入世界的这一部分，进入奥色治族的传统，进入这个故事即将发生的场景。

You know, it brings you into this part of the world, into the Osage tradition, and into a setting where this is going to take place.

没错。

Yeah.

对我这样的人来说，这非常震撼，因为你知道我是纽约人，我从未去过草原。

And for someone like me, that's very striking because, you know, I'm a New Yorker, and, you know, I had never been to a prairie.

我很确定自己从没去过草原。

I don't think I'm pretty sure I'd never been to a prairie.

至少不是那样的草原。

Not like that.

肯定没见过那么辽阔空旷的草原。

Certainly never some vast, open They are

非常辽阔，不是吗？

expansive, aren't they?

哦，简直无边无际。

Oh, it's forever.

而且平坦。

And flat.

是啊。

Yeah.

那高高的蓝草，高草，当它在风中摇曳时，看起来就像一片海洋。

And and and and the tall grass, the blue grass, tall grass, it looks like an ocean when it blows in the wind.

所以对我来说，寻找语言词汇的过程也是在寻找能帮助我理解所写世界的词汇。

And so, you know, for me, part of finding words for language is also trying to find words that help allow me to understand the world I'm writing about.

是啊。

Yeah.

我总会想起罗伯特·卡罗在撰写林登·B·约翰逊传记的时候。

I always think about Robert Carra when he was writing his biographies of Lyndon B.

约翰逊。

Johnson.

他需要实地考察并描写LBJ出身的山区乡村。

He wanted to go out, and he needed to write about the hill country where LBJ was from.

他说我必须搬到那里住上三年。

And he said, I need to go move there and actually lived there for three years.

你能真切感受到他在那里度过的时光，以及他描述石灰岩、建筑和当地棚屋的方式。

And you can feel the time that he spent there and the way that he describes the limestone rock and the the architecture, the shacks there.

我的意思是，这很震撼——因为我几年前去过LBJ的牧场，那简直是最不令人惊讶的体验。

I I mean, it was striking because I ended up going to LBJ's ranch a few years ago, and it was, like, the least surprising experience ever.

就像我已经去过那里一样。

It was like I had been there already.

确实。

Yeah.

卡罗是个传奇人物，你提到这个很有意思，因为我显然读过他那本关于LBJ的书，那是他系列作品的一部分。

Well, Caro is a hero, and it's interesting that you mention that because I had obviously read that book and LBJ, part of his series.

我记得读过一篇对他的采访，他描述了自己在那片区域露营的经历。

And I remember I had read an interview with him where he had described kind of being out there and camping out in that area.

当我创作《花月杀手》时，尽管我对大草原知之甚少，我仍在描写莫莉·伯克哈特的故事——她的家族在那个时期正遭受系统性屠杀。

And when I was working on Killers of the Flower Moon, again, having not spent much time in a prairie, I was writing about a woman, Molly Burkhart, whose family is being kind of systematically killed during this period.

我读到过她少女时代的遭遇：被强行从草原上的住所连根拔起，被迫前往寄宿学校。

And I read about how when she was a young girl, she had been forcibly uprooted from her lodge where she had lived on the prairie and made to go to this boarding school.

我找到了她当年走过的路线。

And I found the trail that she had taken.

有人告诉我她可能走过的路线。

I was told the trail she would have taken.

据说需要两天的行程才能到达那里。

I was told it was a two day trip to get there.

她当时应该是乘坐马车往返的。

She would have gone back then because she would have gone in a wagon with a horse.

于是我决定去看看那条小径——如今它已被植被覆盖，车辆无法通行。

And so I decided you could the trail was now mostly covered up and overgrown, and you couldn't drive through it.

但至少可以开车走一段路。

But you could drive at least partway into it.

我在她当年可能露宿的地方过夜，只为感受草原的夜晚：夜空的模样，无垠的旷野，那会是怎样的体验。

And I spent the night there where she would have spent the night, just camping out in the prairie so I could just see what the prairie was like at night, what would it been like, what was the sky like, the vastness.

这些我都没写进书里。

I didn't write any of it.

之所以没写，因为那是属于我的私人体验。

It was didn't write any of it because it was me.

这是我自己的旅程。

It was my own trip.

但这又一次帮助我以某种方式更贴近我所书写的人物，去理解他们当时的想象。我只是坐在那里思考，一个七八岁的小女孩被强行从家园和传统中连根拔起，突然被拖过这段时期，远赴异乡进入寄宿学校，再也不能说奥塞治语——那会是怎样的感受？

But it was just, again, helping me get somehow feel closer to the people I write about, to understand what they would have been imagining I just sat there thinking, what would it have been like to be a seven or eight year old girl forcibly uprooted from your home, your tradition, suddenly being hauled across this period to go as far as you have been to go to a boarding school where you could no longer speak the Osage language?

是的。

Yeah.

你是如何构思悬念的？

How do you think about suspense?

因为我最初是通过朋友山姆了解到你的作品，他读了《赌注》，然后他说，老兄，我一口气读完了这本书。

Because the way that I discovered your work is my friend Sam, he read he read The Wager, and he was like, dude, I just read this in one sitting.

我从不这样读书的。

I never do that.

你得看看这个作者的文笔。

You need to look into this guy's writing.

就像，你根本停不下来阅读。

Like, it's just you you just can't stop reading.

你无法停止阅读。

You can't stop reading.

你是如何营造这种效果的？

How do you think about creating that?

我听过太多人这样评价你的作品。

I've heard that from so many people about about your writing.

是的。

Yeah.

这么说吧，那个不为人知的小秘密往往很简单，就是我大部分故事都是按时间顺序讲述的。

So, I mean, the dirty little secret is often really simple, which is I tell most of my stories chronologically.

是啊。

Yeah.

我会在开头设置一个序幕来吸引读者，铺垫好你将要展现的悬念，但假设你要登上那艘赌注之船。

I tell them, you know, you may have a prologue that will hook the reader and kind of lay out the suspense that you're going to get, but let's say you're going on the ship of the wager.

特别是人生和航程，这么多叙事都源自航海故事是有原因的，因为它映照着情节发展，对吧？

Well, life and a voyage in particular, there's a reason that so many narratives grew out of these sea tales, because it mirrors a plot, right?

我是说，你登上一艘船。

I mean, you're getting on a ship.

你将前往一个可能完全陌生的地方。

You're going to be heading out into a place you may not know.

你会遭遇考验品性的艰难险阻，那些你从未——

You're gonna face elements that are gonna test your character that you may never

我还在想着脚镣的事。

I'm thinking a shackle too.

对。

Yeah.

就像脚镣那样。

Like a shackle.

对吧？

Right?

而这将考验你的品格。

And it's gonna test your character.

这会展现你的性格。

It's gonna reveal your character.

你永远不知道它会如何结束。

And you never know how it's gonna end.

所以其中很大一部分就是按时间顺序来讲述。

And so so so part of it is just telling it in chronological order.

关键在于描述事物，并以你所描写的人物看待和经历它们的方式来观察，而不是凭借后见之明。

The key is to describe things and see things the way the people you're writing about saw them and experienced them, not with the power of hindsight.

没错。

Yep.

所以当我写的时候，我知道这些人会发生什么，对吧？

So I, when I'm writing it, I know what's going to happen to all these people, right?

我知道发生了什么。

I know what happened.

但当他们亲身经历时，他们并不知道。

But when they're living it, they don't.

他们活在悬念中。

They're living in suspense.

他们可能见不到妻子了 他们和他们的

They might not see their wives They and their

什么都不知道。

don't know anything.

这就是你想要捕捉的心态。

So that's the mindset you wanna capture.

我常说，如果你用后见之明讲述故事，就会强加这种认知。

I always say when if you tell a story with hindsight, you impose that knowledge.

那是一种人为的虚构。

That is an artifice.

那不是历史真实发生的方式。

That is not the way history is lived.

也不是我们此刻对话的进行方式。

That is not the way we are living this conversation.

我们不知道对话会如何结束。

We don't know how the conversation will end.

我们不知道今天晚些时候会发生什么。

We do not know what will happen later today.

而这正是人们经历历史的方式。

And that is the way people experience history.

你活在历史之中。

You live inside of history.

所以我总是试图用人们经历的那种悬疑感来讲述。

And so I always try to tell it with that level of suspense that people went through.

现在我写的许多故事本身就带有悬疑性，这需要你在结构上做些安排。

Now, many of the stories I'm writing about have inherent suspense, and there are things you do structurally.

即使按时间顺序叙述，你也要考虑故事章节的断点在哪里？

And you think and the story, even if you're telling it chronologically, where do you end a chapter?

我的意思是，你会运用某些小技巧和叙事机制。

I mean, there are certain kind of little tools and mechanics that you you do use.

而且，你知道，我读了很多悬疑小说，这可能对我有帮助。

And, you know, I read a lot of suspense fiction that probably helps.

你在哪里以及如何结束一个章节？

Where and how do you end a chapter?

我是说，我只是随机翻开了一页。

I mean, I just opened up to a random page.

是啊。

Yeah.

第110页就在这里。

Page one ten right here.

赌注独自在海上，听凭命运摆布。

The wager was alone at sea, left to its own destiny.

是啊。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

没关系。

It's okay.

得翻到第六章。

Gotta go to chapter six.

得往右翻。

Gotta go to right.

而且你也意识到了这一点，当我想一个故事时，我会从悬疑的两个维度来考虑。

And and you're aware of that, and you kinda have when when I think of a story, I think of it in kind of there are two dimensions of the suspense.

整个故事会在哪里结束，这种悬念一直存在。

There's the suspense of where's the whole story gonna end.

对吧？

Right?

但还有这些短暂场景会在哪里结束？

But then also, where are these momentary scenes gonna end?

而你渴望的正是这种悬念。

And you want the you want the suspense.

你有这种更宏大的

You have this kind of larger

你一直写到最后一句话。

You write to the last sentence.

你知道吗，你这么说很有意思。

You know, it's very funny that you say that.

所以并不总是这样。

So not always.

关于赌注，我在旅行后脑海中就有了最后一行文字，原以为会用这句话结束全书。

For the wager, I had from my trip a last line in my head after I made my trip that I thought I would end the book on.

有几年时间，我都觉得结尾会是类似'唯一的声音是海洋永恒的轻语'这样的句子。

And for a couple years, I was like, my last line will be something about, you know, the only sound was the eternal hush of the sea.

我相当喜欢这个结尾。

I quite liked it.

这很有诗意。

It was very poetic.

当我写到结尾时，我反复审视它，觉得虽然诗意盎然，但前一句更能呼应主题。

And I wrote it when I got to the end, and then I looked at it, and I looked at it, and I thought, it's poetic, but the sentence preceding it speaks to the larger themes.

所以我最终把它删掉了。

And so I ended up cutting it.

你知道的，就像人们常说的'杀死你的宠儿'，我不得不这么做。

I had to kill you know, when they always say kill your darling?

在说杀死宠儿的事呢。

Talking about killing a darling.

是啊。

Yeah.

我不得不杀死你的宠儿。

I had to kill your darling.

没错，就是这样的。

And so, yes, that was one.

然后

And then

你对那些序章怎么看？就是用来引导读者进入...

how do you think about those prologues, like bringing people into Yeah.

这是个故事。

It's a story.

对。

Yeah.

你想要因为...

You want because you

你说你对这些部分比较吃力。

you said you struggle with those a little bit more.

对吧？

Right?

它们非常难。

They're very hard.

我觉得序章最难写，因为你要从一个很高的视角来讲述故事。

I find them the hardest because, you know, they're a little bit more you know, you're looking at a story way above.

我更喜欢深入故事细节。

I like to kind of be in the weeds with the story.

写序章时最难把握的是该透露多少信息。

And with a prologue, you're kind of how much do you give away?

你要确保能吸引读者继续读下去。

You're trying to make sure you can pull the reader in.

为什么要关心这个故事？

Why do you care about this story?

听着，我了解我们生活的这个世界。

Look, I know the world in which we live.

我们生活的这个世界就是我所处的世界。

The world in which we live is a world in which I live.

哎呀，叮，我的手机刚刚响了。

Oop, ding, my phone just beeped.

哎呀，我听到有人在放Spotify音乐。

Oop, I hear someone's Spotify music playing.

哎呀，有新电影上映了。

Oop, there's a new movie out.

哎呀，这个很棒的播客我可以听听。

Oop, this great podcast I can listen to.

所以你们是在争夺人类的注意力。

And so you are competing for human beings' attention.

因此你在序言中试图做的一部分就是说，好吧。

And so part of the thing you're trying to do in the prologue is to say, okay.

跟我来吧。

Come along with me.

你知道吗？

You know?

跟我一起踏上这段旅程吧。

Come along with me for a journey.

你觉得你想表达什么？

What do you think you're trying to say?

就像，嘿。

Like, hey.

这是我讲述这个故事的方式。

Here's I'm framing this story.

这就是为什么它很重要。

Here's why it's important.

这就是为什么值得你花时间。

Here's why it's worth your time.

比如，一篇序章应该回答哪些核心问题？

Like, what are the core questions that a prologue should answer?

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为通常需要包含某些元素，比如说以《失落的Z城》为例。

So I think you want to have some element of, usually, you know, let's say let's talk about The Lost City of Z.

这是我写的第一本关于探险家的书，讲述1925年一位探险家带着他的长子深入亚马逊寻找他称之为Z城的地方后失踪的故事。

It was the first book I did about explorers who disappeared in the Amazon, an explorer with his older son in 1925, looking for this place he called the City Of Z.

随后我沿着他的足迹探寻，试图了解他的遭遇以及这座城是否真实存在。

And then I followed in his footsteps to see what I could learn about what had happened to him and whether this city really existed.

如果它确实存在，这将如何改变我们对哥伦布到来前美洲大陆面貌的认知？

And if it did, what would it how would it transform our understanding of what The Americas looked like before the arrival of Columbus?

在我的探险过程中，曾有一段时间我在丛林里迷了路。

Well, on my own journey, there was a period when I got lost in the jungle.

这段经历会被安排在书的尾声部分。

So that's going to happen towards the very end of the book.

但在序章里，我先描写自己陷入迷途的处境，同时穿插故事的重要线索，为读者营造氛围。

But I plot myself down, at least in the prologue, you know, will myself lost, But then weaving in the stakes of the story, what it was about to give you a sense.

这样你们不知道我会遭遇什么，而我正身处险境。

And so you don't know what's gonna happen to me, and, I'm sitting here.

当然，你们知道最终我脱险了。

So, know, we do know I made it out.

但这样的留白恰到好处，我在简短的篇幅里埋下了悬念。

But that's enough so you have a bit of a cliffhanger, and I could weave in and it's very short.

你知道，我不记得那具体是什么了。

You know, I don't remember what it was.

不过，大概有800到1000字左右。

But, you know, it's like 800 words, a thousand words.

你知道，篇幅很短。

You know, it's short.

但刚好足够吸引你。

But it's just enough to hook you.

你会想：好吧，我必须知道接下来会发生什么。

You say, Okay, I got to know what's going to happen.

但同时，我也在巧妙地融入这个故事的基调和利害关系。

But also, I'm subtly weaving in the themes and the stakes of this narrative.

因为在序章里你要做的就是告诉读者：相信我。

Because what doing in the prologue is you're saying, trust me.

相信我。

Trust me.

与我同行。

Be with me.

我讲这个故事是有原因的。

There's a reason I'm telling this story.

这其中自有其利害关系。

And there are some stakes to it.

也蕴含着悬念。

There's some suspense to it.

这其中自有深意。

There's some meaning to it.

希望它蕴含着某种美感。

Hopefully there's some beauty to it.

你只需持续做下去，就有望吸引他们共同踏上更漫长的旅程。

And you just need to do enough of that to hopefully get them to come along, on a much longer journey.

当你思考本书序章与主体部分的关系时，你如何看待自己作为大卫·格雷厄姆这个角色的定位？

As you think of the prologue versus the main event of the book, how much do you think about your role as David Graham?

就像是，我特别喜欢听祖父或叔叔讲故事，比如约翰叔叔，他总有独特的叙事方式。

Is it like, man, I love it when my grandpa or my uncle tells stories, you know, Uncle John, he just has a way of telling a story.

还是说你会更多地想，嘿。

Or do you think more of, hey.

不。

No.

我会让自己稍微抽离一些。

I'm gonna kinda remove myself a little bit from this.